update on inode problem

update on inode problem

[Igor Gueths]

Hi all. Well after digging into this problem a bit further, I figured out
that the 1:0 reported in the errors about ext2_read_inode were refering to
/dev/ram0 according to /usr/src/linux/Documentation/devices.txt. That
would explain why changing the root.bin image never fixed the problem.
Does anyone know why /dev/ram0 would report this type of error after the
kernel mounted the EXT2_fs using the initrd? One thing I am going to try
is to change the ramdisk_size to 16385 KB. It is currently set to 4096,
and vanilla flavor is what isolinux is defaulting to at the moment. Does
anyone have any other suggestions besides changing the disksize? Thanks!

May you code in the power of the source,
may the kernel, libraries, and utilities be with you,
throughout all distributions until the end of the epoch.

Re: update on inode problem

[Ralph W. Reid]

Igor Gueths staggered into view and mumbled:
>
>Hi all. Well after digging into this problem a bit further, I figured out
>that the 1:0 reported in the errors about ext2_read_inode were refering to
>/dev/ram0 according to /usr/src/linux/Documentation/devices.txt. That
>would explain why changing the root.bin image never fixed the problem.
>Does anyone know why /dev/ram0 would report this type of error after the
>kernel mounted the EXT2_fs using the initrd? One thing I am going to try
>is to change the ramdisk_size to 16385 KB. It is currently set to 4096,
>and vanilla flavor is what isolinux is defaulting to at the moment. Does
>anyone have any other suggestions besides changing the disksize? Thanks!

Hmmm.  I wonder if this is an indication of a bit of bad RAM.  I have
heard that Linux is not very tolerant of bad memory, but RAM problems
are rare enough that I have never heard exactly how they manifest
themselves.  If all else fails (and I do mean _all_ else), you might
try swapping memory module locations on your mother board to see if
this affects the situation at all.  RAM failures are very rare, but
they can happen.  The simple RAM test performed during system boot
can miss some memory errors, but this is pretty rare as well.  I hope
you can get your system working soon.

Have a _great_ day!



-- 
Ralph.  N6BNO.  Wisdom comes from central processing, not from I/O.
rreid@sunset.net  http://personalweb.sunset.net/~rreid
Opinions herein are either mine or they are flame bait.
y = x ^ LOG_B (x, y)

Re: update on inode problem

[Igor Gueths]

Hi Ralph. Btw, my system is working fine, its this bootable Cd distro that
I can't get quite working yet. Now I have tried changing the ramdisk size
to 32768 and it still doesn't work. I have noticed all the problems come
after starting busybox. The filesystem is mounting properly, or this is
what the kernel reports during its half boot sequence. Does anyone know if
busybox does any filesystem checks and perhaps this is what is causing the
problems? Does anyone know if perhaps I throw in the regular binaries
busybox uses and that fixes it? Thanks!

May you code in the power of the source,
may the kernel, libraries, and utilities be with you,
throughout all distributions until the end of the epoch.

On Fri, 8 Nov 2002, Ralph W. Reid wrote:

> Igor Gueths staggered into view and mumbled:
> >
> >Hi all. Well after digging into this problem a bit further, I figured out
> >that the 1:0 reported in the errors about ext2_read_inode were refering to
> >/dev/ram0 according to /usr/src/linux/Documentation/devices.txt. That
> >would explain why changing the root.bin image never fixed the problem.
> >Does anyone know why /dev/ram0 would report this type of error after the
> >kernel mounted the EXT2_fs using the initrd? One thing I am going to try
> >is to change the ramdisk_size to 16385 KB. It is currently set to 4096,
> >and vanilla flavor is what isolinux is defaulting to at the moment. Does
> >anyone have any other suggestions besides changing the disksize? Thanks!
>
> Hmmm.  I wonder if this is an indication of a bit of bad RAM.  I have
> heard that Linux is not very tolerant of bad memory, but RAM problems
> are rare enough that I have never heard exactly how they manifest
> themselves.  If all else fails (and I do mean _all_ else), you might
> try swapping memory module locations on your mother board to see if
> this affects the situation at all.  RAM failures are very rare, but
> they can happen.  The simple RAM test performed during system boot
> can miss some memory errors, but this is pretty rare as well.  I hope
> you can get your system working soon.
>
> Have a _great_ day!
>
>
>
> --
> Ralph.  N6BNO.  Wisdom comes from central processing, not from I/O.
> rreid@sunset.net  http://personalweb.sunset.net/~rreid
> Opinions herein are either mine or they are flame bait.
> y = x ^ LOG_B (x, y)
>
> _______________________________________________
> Speakup mailing list
> Speakup@braille.uwo.ca
> http://speech.braille.uwo.ca/mailman/listinfo/speakup
>

Re: update on inode problem

[Gregory Nowak]

If you can, dump busybox, and go for init and all other regular binaries. 

We're having busybox problems in speakimage right now, and will be switching over to init as soon as I get time to do it. 

Greg


On Fri, Nov 08, 2002 at 05:23:31PM -0500, Igor Gueths wrote:
> Hi Ralph. Btw, my system is working fine, its this bootable Cd distro that
> I can't get quite working yet. Now I have tried changing the ramdisk size
> to 32768 and it still doesn't work. I have noticed all the problems come
> after starting busybox. The filesystem is mounting properly, or this is
> what the kernel reports during its half boot sequence. Does anyone know if
> busybox does any filesystem checks and perhaps this is what is causing the
> problems? Does anyone know if perhaps I throw in the regular binaries
> busybox uses and that fixes it? Thanks!
> 
> May you code in the power of the source,
> may the kernel, libraries, and utilities be with you,
> throughout all distributions until the end of the epoch.
> 
> On Fri, 8 Nov 2002, Ralph W. Reid wrote:
> 
> > Igor Gueths staggered into view and mumbled:
> > >
> > >Hi all. Well after digging into this problem a bit further, I figured out
> > >that the 1:0 reported in the errors about ext2_read_inode were refering to
> > >/dev/ram0 according to /usr/src/linux/Documentation/devices.txt. That
> > >would explain why changing the root.bin image never fixed the problem.
> > >Does anyone know why /dev/ram0 would report this type of error after the
> > >kernel mounted the EXT2_fs using the initrd? One thing I am going to try
> > >is to change the ramdisk_size to 16385 KB. It is currently set to 4096,
> > >and vanilla flavor is what isolinux is defaulting to at the moment. Does
> > >anyone have any other suggestions besides changing the disksize? Thanks!
> >
> > Hmmm.  I wonder if this is an indication of a bit of bad RAM.  I have
> > heard that Linux is not very tolerant of bad memory, but RAM problems
> > are rare enough that I have never heard exactly how they manifest
> > themselves.  If all else fails (and I do mean _all_ else), you might
> > try swapping memory module locations on your mother board to see if
> > this affects the situation at all.  RAM failures are very rare, but
> > they can happen.  The simple RAM test performed during system boot
> > can miss some memory errors, but this is pretty rare as well.  I hope
> > you can get your system working soon.
> >
> > Have a _great_ day!
> >
> >
> >
> > --
> > Ralph.  N6BNO.  Wisdom comes from central processing, not from I/O.
> > rreid@sunset.net  http://personalweb.sunset.net/~rreid
> > Opinions herein are either mine or they are flame bait.
> > y = x ^ LOG_B (x, y)
> >
> > _______________________________________________
> > Speakup mailing list
> > Speakup@braille.uwo.ca
> > http://speech.braille.uwo.ca/mailman/listinfo/speakup
> >
> 
> 
> _______________________________________________
> Speakup mailing list
> Speakup@braille.uwo.ca
> http://speech.braille.uwo.ca/mailman/listinfo/speakup

Re: update on inode problem

[Igor Gueths]

Hi Greg. Ok will do. What's this speakimage you're refering to? It just
doesn't ring a bell grin!

May you code in the power of the source,
may the kernel, libraries, and utilities be with you,
throughout all distributions until the end of the epoch.

On Fri, 8 Nov 2002, Gregory Nowak wrote:

> If you can, dump busybox, and go for init and all other regular binaries.
>
> We're having busybox problems in speakimage right now, and will be switching over to init as soon as I get time to do it.
>
> Greg
>
>
> On Fri, Nov 08, 2002 at 05:23:31PM -0500, Igor Gueths wrote:
> > Hi Ralph. Btw, my system is working fine, its this bootable Cd distro that
> > I can't get quite working yet. Now I have tried changing the ramdisk size
> > to 32768 and it still doesn't work. I have noticed all the problems come
> > after starting busybox. The filesystem is mounting properly, or this is
> > what the kernel reports during its half boot sequence. Does anyone know if
> > busybox does any filesystem checks and perhaps this is what is causing the
> > problems? Does anyone know if perhaps I throw in the regular binaries
> > busybox uses and that fixes it? Thanks!
> >
> > May you code in the power of the source,
> > may the kernel, libraries, and utilities be with you,
> > throughout all distributions until the end of the epoch.
> >
> > On Fri, 8 Nov 2002, Ralph W. Reid wrote:
> >
> > > Igor Gueths staggered into view and mumbled:
> > > >
> > > >Hi all. Well after digging into this problem a bit further, I figured out
> > > >that the 1:0 reported in the errors about ext2_read_inode were refering to
> > > >/dev/ram0 according to /usr/src/linux/Documentation/devices.txt. That
> > > >would explain why changing the root.bin image never fixed the problem.
> > > >Does anyone know why /dev/ram0 would report this type of error after the
> > > >kernel mounted the EXT2_fs using the initrd? One thing I am going to try
> > > >is to change the ramdisk_size to 16385 KB. It is currently set to 4096,
> > > >and vanilla flavor is what isolinux is defaulting to at the moment. Does
> > > >anyone have any other suggestions besides changing the disksize? Thanks!
> > >
> > > Hmmm.  I wonder if this is an indication of a bit of bad RAM.  I have
> > > heard that Linux is not very tolerant of bad memory, but RAM problems
> > > are rare enough that I have never heard exactly how they manifest
> > > themselves.  If all else fails (and I do mean _all_ else), you might
> > > try swapping memory module locations on your mother board to see if
> > > this affects the situation at all.  RAM failures are very rare, but
> > > they can happen.  The simple RAM test performed during system boot
> > > can miss some memory errors, but this is pretty rare as well.  I hope
> > > you can get your system working soon.
> > >
> > > Have a _great_ day!
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > > --
> > > Ralph.  N6BNO.  Wisdom comes from central processing, not from I/O.
> > > rreid@sunset.net  http://personalweb.sunset.net/~rreid
> > > Opinions herein are either mine or they are flame bait.
> > > y = x ^ LOG_B (x, y)
> > >
> > > _______________________________________________
> > > Speakup mailing list
> > > Speakup@braille.uwo.ca
> > > http://speech.braille.uwo.ca/mailman/listinfo/speakup
> > >
> >
> >
> > _______________________________________________
> > Speakup mailing list
> > Speakup@braille.uwo.ca
> > http://speech.braille.uwo.ca/mailman/listinfo/speakup
>
> _______________________________________________
> Speakup mailing list
> Speakup@braille.uwo.ca
> http://speech.braille.uwo.ca/mailman/listinfo/speakup
>

Re: update on inode problem

[Gregory Nowak]

http://www.partimage.org/speakimage_index.php3

Greg


On Sat, Nov 09, 2002 at 10:26:29AM -0500, Igor Gueths wrote:
> Hi Greg. Ok will do. What's this speakimage you're refering to? It just
> doesn't ring a bell grin!
> 
> May you code in the power of the source,
> may the kernel, libraries, and utilities be with you,
> throughout all distributions until the end of the epoch.
> 
> On Fri, 8 Nov 2002, Gregory Nowak wrote:
> 
> > If you can, dump busybox, and go for init and all other regular binaries.
> >
> > We're having busybox problems in speakimage right now, and will be switching over to init as soon as I get time to do it.
> >
> > Greg
> >
> >
> > On Fri, Nov 08, 2002 at 05:23:31PM -0500, Igor Gueths wrote:
> > > Hi Ralph. Btw, my system is working fine, its this bootable Cd distro that
> > > I can't get quite working yet. Now I have tried changing the ramdisk size
> > > to 32768 and it still doesn't work. I have noticed all the problems come
> > > after starting busybox. The filesystem is mounting properly, or this is
> > > what the kernel reports during its half boot sequence. Does anyone know if
> > > busybox does any filesystem checks and perhaps this is what is causing the
> > > problems? Does anyone know if perhaps I throw in the regular binaries
> > > busybox uses and that fixes it? Thanks!
> > >
> > > May you code in the power of the source,
> > > may the kernel, libraries, and utilities be with you,
> > > throughout all distributions until the end of the epoch.
> > >
> > > On Fri, 8 Nov 2002, Ralph W. Reid wrote:
> > >
> > > > Igor Gueths staggered into view and mumbled:
> > > > >
> > > > >Hi all. Well after digging into this problem a bit further, I figured out
> > > > >that the 1:0 reported in the errors about ext2_read_inode were refering to
> > > > >/dev/ram0 according to /usr/src/linux/Documentation/devices.txt. That
> > > > >would explain why changing the root.bin image never fixed the problem.
> > > > >Does anyone know why /dev/ram0 would report this type of error after the
> > > > >kernel mounted the EXT2_fs using the initrd? One thing I am going to try
> > > > >is to change the ramdisk_size to 16385 KB. It is currently set to 4096,
> > > > >and vanilla flavor is what isolinux is defaulting to at the moment. Does
> > > > >anyone have any other suggestions besides changing the disksize? Thanks!
> > > >
> > > > Hmmm.  I wonder if this is an indication of a bit of bad RAM.  I have
> > > > heard that Linux is not very tolerant of bad memory, but RAM problems
> > > > are rare enough that I have never heard exactly how they manifest
> > > > themselves.  If all else fails (and I do mean _all_ else), you might
> > > > try swapping memory module locations on your mother board to see if
> > > > this affects the situation at all.  RAM failures are very rare, but
> > > > they can happen.  The simple RAM test performed during system boot
> > > > can miss some memory errors, but this is pretty rare as well.  I hope
> > > > you can get your system working soon.
> > > >
> > > > Have a _great_ day!
> > > >
> > > >
> > > >
> > > > --
> > > > Ralph.  N6BNO.  Wisdom comes from central processing, not from I/O.
> > > > rreid@sunset.net  http://personalweb.sunset.net/~rreid
> > > > Opinions herein are either mine or they are flame bait.
> > > > y = x ^ LOG_B (x, y)
> > > >
> > > > _______________________________________________
> > > > Speakup mailing list
> > > > Speakup@braille.uwo.ca
> > > > http://speech.braille.uwo.ca/mailman/listinfo/speakup
> > > >
> > >
> > >
> > > _______________________________________________
> > > Speakup mailing list
> > > Speakup@braille.uwo.ca
> > > http://speech.braille.uwo.ca/mailman/listinfo/speakup
> >
> > _______________________________________________
> > Speakup mailing list
> > Speakup@braille.uwo.ca
> > http://speech.braille.uwo.ca/mailman/listinfo/speakup
> >
> 
> 
> _______________________________________________
> Speakup mailing list
> Speakup@braille.uwo.ca
> http://speech.braille.uwo.ca/mailman/listinfo/speakup

Re: update on inode problem

[Kerry Hoath]

On Fri, Nov 08, 2002 at 12:32:29AM -0800, Ralph W. Reid wrote:
> Igor Gueths staggered into view and mumbled:
> >
> >Hi all. Well after digging into this problem a bit further, I figured out
> >that the 1:0 reported in the errors about ext2_read_inode were refering to
> >/dev/ram0 according to /usr/src/linux/Documentation/devices.txt. That
...
> Hmmm.  I wonder if this is an indication of a bit of bad RAM.  I have
> heard that Linux is not very tolerant of bad memory, but RAM problems
> are rare enough that I have never heard exactly how they manifest
> themselves.  If all else fails (and I do mean _all_ else), you might
Ram problems are quite regular. Unless you have ECC ram;
it is  not unheard of to have a few cells fail in the millions
of cells in the average computer's sdram/dram/rdram etc.
True; memory has become more reliable;
but as we run it at faster clock rates; the margin
for error deminishes.
I had 1 failing bit in 3 sticks totalling 768 megabytes of sdram.
The error would quietly corrupt a bit in 768 megabytes whenever that location got  used.
The error took 30 kernel compiles or 2-3 days to manifest itself
in an md5 sum failure or segmentation fault etc.
Testing all the memory in the machine with t he memory test at
http://www.memtest86.com (you can enable a serial console at compile time)
found the error reliably in 40-50 minutes.
A switching of the sticks and watching the failing address tracked the module at fault.
I removed and tested t he memory again. No errors.
I then send the 256-meg stick back for replacement under Waranty.
Now I have 768-meg of working memory and audio files or compresssed files
do not become corrupt. I used to test the error
by bzipping and unbzipping an iso image 10 times or more and checking for errors in the  data.
This was done on a backup of the image since it would reliably corrupt the
original.

Regards, Kerry.
> try swapping memory module locations on your mother board to see if
> this affects the situation at all.  RAM failures are very rare, but
> they can happen.  The simple RAM test performed during system boot
> can miss some memory errors, but this is pretty rare as well.  I hope
> you can get your system working soon.
> 
> Have a _great_ day!
> 
> 
> 
> -- 
> Ralph.  N6BNO.  Wisdom comes from central processing, not from I/O.
> rreid@sunset.net  http://personalweb.sunset.net/~rreid
> Opinions herein are either mine or they are flame bait.
> y = x ^ LOG_B (x, y)
> 
> _______________________________________________
> Speakup mailing list
> Speakup@braille.uwo.ca
> http://speech.braille.uwo.ca/mailman/listinfo/speakup
> 
> 

-- 
Kerry Hoath:  kerry@gotss.net kerry@gotss.eu.org or  kerry@gotss.spice.net.au
ICQ: 8226547 msn: kerry@gotss.net Yahoo: kerryhoath@yahoo.com.au

Re: update on inode problem

[Kerry Hoath]

On Fri, Nov 08, 2002 at 05:18:57PM -0600, Gregory Nowak wrote:
> If you can, dump busybox, and go for init and all other regular binaries. 
Funny; busybox works j us fine on the Debian boot floppies and on
Tom's root disk. It is often necessary to use busybox in
imbedded systems or to save space on the floppy.
> 
> We're having busybox problems in speakimage right now, and will be switching over to init as soon as I get time to do it. 
> 
> Greg
> 

-- 
Kerry Hoath:  kerry@gotss.net kerry@gotss.eu.org or  kerry@gotss.spice.net.au
ICQ: 8226547 msn: kerry@gotss.net Yahoo: kerryhoath@yahoo.com.au

Re: update on inode problem

[Igor Gueths]

Hi Kerry. I will check into the bad ram. Unfortunately, I do not have
another Linux box to test whether it is something I am doing wrong or a
corrupt bit in my ram. I will check out that url. In the meantime, would
anyone possibly be interested in testing the filesystem I am currently
working with? This would involve either uploading the entire iso from me
or just putting the filesystem on a floppy. Then create another floppy
containing a kernel of your choice. Note that BLK_DEV_LOOP, FAT, MSDOS_FS,
PROCFS, EXT2, BLK_DEV_RAM, and ISO9660. The only problem is that my upload
is unfortunately limited to about 40 KBPS. Please mail me off-list if
interested. Thanks!

May you code in the power of the source,
may the kernel, libraries, and utilities be with you,
throughout all distributions until the end of the epoch.

On Sun, 10 Nov 2002, Kerry Hoath wrote:

> On Fri, Nov 08, 2002 at 12:32:29AM -0800, Ralph W. Reid wrote:
> > Igor Gueths staggered into view and mumbled:
> > >
> > >Hi all. Well after digging into this problem a bit further, I figured out
> > >that the 1:0 reported in the errors about ext2_read_inode were refering to
> > >/dev/ram0 according to /usr/src/linux/Documentation/devices.txt. That
> ...
> > Hmmm.  I wonder if this is an indication of a bit of bad RAM.  I have
> > heard that Linux is not very tolerant of bad memory, but RAM problems
> > are rare enough that I have never heard exactly how they manifest
> > themselves.  If all else fails (and I do mean _all_ else), you might
> Ram problems are quite regular. Unless you have ECC ram;
> it is  not unheard of to have a few cells fail in the millions
> of cells in the average computer's sdram/dram/rdram etc.
> True; memory has become more reliable;
> but as we run it at faster clock rates; the margin
> for error deminishes.
> I had 1 failing bit in 3 sticks totalling 768 megabytes of sdram.
> The error would quietly corrupt a bit in 768 megabytes whenever that location got  used.
> The error took 30 kernel compiles or 2-3 days to manifest itself
> in an md5 sum failure or segmentation fault etc.
> Testing all the memory in the machine with t he memory test at
> http://www.memtest86.com (you can enable a serial console at compile time)
> found the error reliably in 40-50 minutes.
> A switching of the sticks and watching the failing address tracked the module at fault.
> I removed and tested t he memory again. No errors.
> I then send the 256-meg stick back for replacement under Waranty.
> Now I have 768-meg of working memory and audio files or compresssed files
> do not become corrupt. I used to test the error
> by bzipping and unbzipping an iso image 10 times or more and checking for errors in the  data.
> This was done on a backup of the image since it would reliably corrupt the
> original.
>
> Regards, Kerry.
> > try swapping memory module locations on your mother board to see if
> > this affects the situation at all.  RAM failures are very rare, but
> > they can happen.  The simple RAM test performed during system boot
> > can miss some memory errors, but this is pretty rare as well.  I hope
> > you can get your system working soon.
> >
> > Have a _great_ day!
> >
> >
> >
> > --
> > Ralph.  N6BNO.  Wisdom comes from central processing, not from I/O.
> > rreid@sunset.net  http://personalweb.sunset.net/~rreid
> > Opinions herein are either mine or they are flame bait.
> > y = x ^ LOG_B (x, y)
> >
> > _______________________________________________
> > Speakup mailing list
> > Speakup@braille.uwo.ca
> > http://speech.braille.uwo.ca/mailman/listinfo/speakup
> >
> >
>
> --
> Kerry Hoath:  kerry@gotss.net kerry@gotss.eu.org or  kerry@gotss.spice.net.au
> ICQ: 8226547 msn: kerry@gotss.net Yahoo: kerryhoath@yahoo.com.au
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> Speakup mailing list
> Speakup@braille.uwo.ca
> http://speech.braille.uwo.ca/mailman/listinfo/speakup
>

Re: update on inode problem

[Gregory Nowak]

Yes, I noticed that it seems to do well on floppies. But, when it comes to using it in cd-rom based distros, then ...

Greg


On Sun, Nov 10, 2002 at 10:04:09PM +0800, Kerry Hoath wrote:
> On Fri, Nov 08, 2002 at 05:18:57PM -0600, Gregory Nowak wrote:
> > If you can, dump busybox, and go for init and all other regular binaries. 
> Funny; busybox works j us fine on the Debian boot floppies and on
> Tom's root disk. It is often necessary to use busybox in
> imbedded systems or to save space on the floppy.
> > 
> > We're having busybox problems in speakimage right now, and will be switching over to init as soon as I get time to do it. 
> > 
> > Greg
> > 
> 
> -- 
> Kerry Hoath:  kerry@gotss.net kerry@gotss.eu.org or  kerry@gotss.spice.net.au
> ICQ: 8226547 msn: kerry@gotss.net Yahoo: kerryhoath@yahoo.com.au
> 
> 
> _______________________________________________
> Speakup mailing list
> Speakup@braille.uwo.ca
> http://speech.braille.uwo.ca/mailman/listinfo/speakup

Re: update on inode problem

[Kerry Hoath]

Many people say that isolinux uncovers many bugs in bootable cdrom
support in the average bios.
Try asking on the isolinux mailing list perhapse?
On Sun, Nov 10, 2002 at 01:50:17PM -0600, Gregory Nowak wrote:
> Yes, I noticed that it seems to do well on floppies. But, when it comes to using it in cd-rom based distros, then ...
> 
> Greg
> 
> 
> On Sun, Nov 10, 2002 at 10:04:09PM +0800, Kerry Hoath wrote:
> > On Fri, Nov 08, 2002 at 05:18:57PM -0600, Gregory Nowak wrote:
> > > If you can, dump busybox, and go for init and all other regular binaries. 
> > Funny; busybox works j us fine on the Debian boot floppies and on
> > Tom's root disk. It is often necessary to use busybox in
> > imbedded systems or to save space on the floppy.
> > > 
> > > We're having busybox problems in speakimage right now, and will be switching over to init as soon as I get time to do it. 
> > > 
> > > Greg
> > > 
> > 
> > -- 
> > Kerry Hoath:  kerry@gotss.net kerry@gotss.eu.org or  kerry@gotss.spice.net.au
> > ICQ: 8226547 msn: kerry@gotss.net Yahoo: kerryhoath@yahoo.com.au
> > 
> > 
> > _______________________________________________
> > Speakup mailing list
> > Speakup@braille.uwo.ca
> > http://speech.braille.uwo.ca/mailman/listinfo/speakup
> 
> _______________________________________________
> Speakup mailing list
> Speakup@braille.uwo.ca
> http://speech.braille.uwo.ca/mailman/listinfo/speakup
> 
> 

-- 
Kerry Hoath:  kerry@gotss.net kerry@gotss.eu.org or  kerry@gotss.spice.net.au
ICQ: 8226547 msn: kerry@gotss.net Yahoo: kerryhoath@yahoo.com.au