Alternate versions of Slackware 8.0 boot disks uploaded

Alternate versions of Slackware 8.0 boot disks uploaded

[Joseph Norton]

Hi listers:

It appears that the Slackware 8.0 boot disks (as contained in the ISO
image, at least) do not have support for PPP compiled in.  I have uploaded
alternate versions of these disks to the Speakup ftp site.  If Kirk
follows his usual procedure, you should find them at:

ftp://linux-speakup.org/pub/speakup/disks/slackware/slackware-8.0

I was successful in booting up, but, don't have any scsi hardware to
actually test the "speakup.s" images.  However, both images booted up fine
(as far as I could tell).

In case you haven't, be sure to read Saqib Shaikh's "SPEAK_INSTALL.TXT"
file for instructions in selecting a synthesizer at boot time with the
disks.  Support for all synths supported by the cvs version of Speakup is
included in the kernels.  You just need to pass the proper variables to
the kernel when first booting up.  Also, if you elect to use the supplied
boot kernel from the boot disk, you will need to make sure you pass the
appropriate synthesizer variable to the kernel when setting up lilo.

Hope this helps.

Hewlet Packard and Linux

[Charles Crawford]

	I don't know what others may know about this, but I was impressed when I 
went over to the HP.com page to discover they have linux servers and 
desktops for sale.  Very interesting indeed.  Now I need to contact them 
and make sure they have the versions that support speech.  Maybe, we could 
actually get them to offer speech interface as a feature when prchasing is 
made?

-- Charlie.

Re: Hewlet Packard and Linux

[David Poehlman]

you might want to try dell as well.

----- Original Message -----
From: "Charles Crawford" <CCrawford@ACB.org>
To: <speakup@braille.uwo.ca>
Sent: Friday, August 24, 2001 9:48 AM
Subject: Hewlet Packard and Linux


I don't know what others may know about this, but I was impressed when I
went over to the HP.com page to discover they have linux servers and
desktops for sale.  Very interesting indeed.  Now I need to contact them
and make sure they have the versions that support speech.  Maybe, we
could
actually get them to offer speech interface as a feature when prchasing
is
made?

-- Charlie.


_______________________________________________
Speakup mailing list
Speakup@braille.uwo.ca
http://speech.braille.uwo.ca/mailman/listinfo/speakup

Re: Hewlet Packard and Linux

[Janina Sajka]

Dell recently discontinued prebuilt linux computers.


On Fri, 24 Aug 2001, David Poehlman wrote:

> you might want to try dell as well.
>
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: "Charles Crawford" <CCrawford@ACB.org>
> To: <speakup@braille.uwo.ca>
> Sent: Friday, August 24, 2001 9:48 AM
> Subject: Hewlet Packard and Linux
>
>
> I don't know what others may know about this, but I was impressed when I
> went over to the HP.com page to discover they have linux servers and
> desktops for sale.  Very interesting indeed.  Now I need to contact them
> and make sure they have the versions that support speech.  Maybe, we
> could
> actually get them to offer speech interface as a feature when prchasing
> is
> made?
>
> -- Charlie.
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> Speakup mailing list
> Speakup@braille.uwo.ca
> http://speech.braille.uwo.ca/mailman/listinfo/speakup
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> Speakup mailing list
> Speakup@braille.uwo.ca
> http://speech.braille.uwo.ca/mailman/listinfo/speakup
>

-- 

				Janina Sajka, Director
				Technology Research and Development
				Governmental Relations Group
				American Foundation for the Blind (AFB)

Email: janina@afb.net		Phone: (202) 408-8175

Chair, Accessibility SIG
Open Electronic Book Forum (OEBF)
http://www.openebook.org

Will electronic books surpass print books? Read our white paper,
Surpassing Gutenberg, at http://www.afb.org/ebook.asp

Download a free sample Digital Talking Book edition of Martin Luther
King Jr's inspiring "I Have A Dream" speech at
http://www.afb.org/mlkweb.asp

Learn how to make accessible software at
http://www.afb.org/accessapp.asp

Re: Hewlet Packard and Linux

[Gregory Nowak]

Any idea why?
Greg


On Fri, Aug 24, 2001 at 10:59:40AM -0400, Janina Sajka wrote:
> Dell recently discontinued prebuilt linux computers.
> 
> 
> On Fri, 24 Aug 2001, David Poehlman wrote:
> 
> > you might want to try dell as well.
> >
> > ----- Original Message -----
> > From: "Charles Crawford" <CCrawford@ACB.org>
> > To: <speakup@braille.uwo.ca>
> > Sent: Friday, August 24, 2001 9:48 AM
> > Subject: Hewlet Packard and Linux
> >
> >
> > I don't know what others may know about this, but I was impressed when I
> > went over to the HP.com page to discover they have linux servers and
> > desktops for sale.  Very interesting indeed.  Now I need to contact them
> > and make sure they have the versions that support speech.  Maybe, we
> > could
> > actually get them to offer speech interface as a feature when prchasing
> > is
> > made?
> >
> > -- Charlie.
> >
> >
> > _______________________________________________
> > Speakup mailing list
> > Speakup@braille.uwo.ca
> > http://speech.braille.uwo.ca/mailman/listinfo/speakup
> >
> >
> > _______________________________________________
> > Speakup mailing list
> > Speakup@braille.uwo.ca
> > http://speech.braille.uwo.ca/mailman/listinfo/speakup
> >
> 
> -- 
> 
> 				Janina Sajka, Director
> 				Technology Research and Development
> 				Governmental Relations Group
> 				American Foundation for the Blind (AFB)
> 
> Email: janina@afb.net		Phone: (202) 408-8175
> 
> Chair, Accessibility SIG
> Open Electronic Book Forum (OEBF)
> http://www.openebook.org
> 
> Will electronic books surpass print books? Read our white paper,
> Surpassing Gutenberg, at http://www.afb.org/ebook.asp
> 
> Download a free sample Digital Talking Book edition of Martin Luther
> King Jr's inspiring "I Have A Dream" speech at
> http://www.afb.org/mlkweb.asp
> 
> Learn how to make accessible software at
> http://www.afb.org/accessapp.asp
> 
> 
> _______________________________________________
> Speakup mailing list
> Speakup@braille.uwo.ca
> http://speech.braille.uwo.ca/mailman/listinfo/speakup

Re: Hewlet Packard and Linux

[Janina Sajka]

Are you against the notion of building a box as Kirk suggested the other
day? Unless HP donates, we would save significant dollars--which would be
put to better use in design services. Those aren't so easily donated.


-- 

				Janina Sajka, Director
				Technology Research and Development
				Governmental Relations Group
				American Foundation for the Blind (AFB)

Email: janina@afb.net		Phone: (202) 408-8175

Chair, Accessibility SIG
Open Electronic Book Forum (OEBF)
http://www.openebook.org

Will electronic books surpass print books? Read our white paper,
Surpassing Gutenberg, at http://www.afb.org/ebook.asp

Download a free sample Digital Talking Book edition of Martin Luther
King Jr's inspiring "I Have A Dream" speech at
http://www.afb.org/mlkweb.asp

Learn how to make accessible software at
http://www.afb.org/accessapp.asp

Re: Hewlet Packard and Linux

[Scott Howell]

Dell no longer sells boxes with Linux. M$ must have paid them off.<grin>




---
Scott 

On Fri, 24 Aug 2001, David Poehlman wrote:

> you might want to try dell as well.
> 
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: "Charles Crawford" <CCrawford@ACB.org>
> To: <speakup@braille.uwo.ca>
> Sent: Friday, August 24, 2001 9:48 AM
> Subject: Hewlet Packard and Linux
> 
> 
> I don't know what others may know about this, but I was impressed when I
> went over to the HP.com page to discover they have linux servers and
> desktops for sale.  Very interesting indeed.  Now I need to contact them
> and make sure they have the versions that support speech.  Maybe, we
> could
> actually get them to offer speech interface as a feature when prchasing
> is
> made?
> 
> -- Charlie.
> 
> 
> _______________________________________________
> Speakup mailing list
> Speakup@braille.uwo.ca
> http://speech.braille.uwo.ca/mailman/listinfo/speakup
> 
> 
> _______________________________________________
> Speakup mailing list
> Speakup@braille.uwo.ca
> http://speech.braille.uwo.ca/mailman/listinfo/speakup
> 

Re: Hewlet Packard and Linux

[David Poehlman]

how sad.  This is not good for us as it shows the rest of the market
that there may be no market or perhaps it makes room.  It does not send
an optimistic message though.  This is in response to both messages
giving me this bad news.

----- Original Message -----
From: "Scott Howell" <showell@lrxms.net>
To: <speakup@braille.uwo.ca>
Sent: Friday, August 24, 2001 1:32 PM
Subject: Re: Hewlet Packard and Linux



Dell no longer sells boxes with Linux. M$ must have paid them off.<grin>




---
Scott

On Fri, 24 Aug 2001, David Poehlman wrote:

> you might want to try dell as well.
>
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: "Charles Crawford" <CCrawford@ACB.org>
> To: <speakup@braille.uwo.ca>
> Sent: Friday, August 24, 2001 9:48 AM
> Subject: Hewlet Packard and Linux
>
>
> I don't know what others may know about this, but I was impressed when
I
> went over to the HP.com page to discover they have linux servers and
> desktops for sale.  Very interesting indeed.  Now I need to contact
them
> and make sure they have the versions that support speech.  Maybe, we
> could
> actually get them to offer speech interface as a feature when
prchasing
> is
> made?
>
> -- Charlie.
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> Speakup mailing list
> Speakup@braille.uwo.ca
> http://speech.braille.uwo.ca/mailman/listinfo/speakup
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> Speakup mailing list
> Speakup@braille.uwo.ca
> http://speech.braille.uwo.ca/mailman/listinfo/speakup
>


_______________________________________________
Speakup mailing list
Speakup@braille.uwo.ca
http://speech.braille.uwo.ca/mailman/listinfo/speakup

Re: Hewlet Packard and Linux

[Amanda Lee]

Well it's sad for now David, but let's do whatever it takes to increase
the visibility of these issues.  Actually, industry is beginning to
acknowledge Linux.


Amanda Lee

On Fri, 24 Aug 2001, David Poehlman wrote:

> how sad.  This is not good for us as it shows the rest of the market
> that there may be no market or perhaps it makes room.  It does not send
> an optimistic message though.  This is in response to both messages
> giving me this bad news.
>
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: "Scott Howell" <showell@lrxms.net>
> To: <speakup@braille.uwo.ca>
> Sent: Friday, August 24, 2001 1:32 PM
> Subject: Re: Hewlet Packard and Linux
>
>
>
> Dell no longer sells boxes with Linux. M$ must have paid them off.<grin>
>
>
>
>
> ---
> Scott
>
> On Fri, 24 Aug 2001, David Poehlman wrote:
>
> > you might want to try dell as well.
> >
> > ----- Original Message -----
> > From: "Charles Crawford" <CCrawford@ACB.org>
> > To: <speakup@braille.uwo.ca>
> > Sent: Friday, August 24, 2001 9:48 AM
> > Subject: Hewlet Packard and Linux
> >
> >
> > I don't know what others may know about this, but I was impressed when
> I
> > went over to the HP.com page to discover they have linux servers and
> > desktops for sale.  Very interesting indeed.  Now I need to contact
> them
> > and make sure they have the versions that support speech.  Maybe, we
> > could
> > actually get them to offer speech interface as a feature when
> prchasing
> > is
> > made?
> >
> > -- Charlie.
> >
> >
> > _______________________________________________
> > Speakup mailing list
> > Speakup@braille.uwo.ca
> > http://speech.braille.uwo.ca/mailman/listinfo/speakup
> >
> >
> > _______________________________________________
> > Speakup mailing list
> > Speakup@braille.uwo.ca
> > http://speech.braille.uwo.ca/mailman/listinfo/speakup
> >
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> Speakup mailing list
> Speakup@braille.uwo.ca
> http://speech.braille.uwo.ca/mailman/listinfo/speakup
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> Speakup mailing list
> Speakup@braille.uwo.ca
> http://speech.braille.uwo.ca/mailman/listinfo/speakup
>

Re: Hewlet Packard and Linux

[Kirk Wood]

On Fri, 24 Aug 2001, Scott Howell wrote:
> Dell no longer sells boxes with Linux. M$ must have paid them off.<grin>

Actually, Dell no longer sell desktop systems with Linux
pre-installed. They still sell servers with it installed and even offer
service for a fee on said machines. But there wasn't the demand for
pre-installed boxes. (Besides you paid for a copy of winblows anyway. The
prices were the same.)

=======
Kirk Wood
Cpt.Kirk@1tree.net

The mind is like a parachute; it works much better when open.
If you're too open minded, your brains will fall out.

Re: Hewlet Packard and Linux

[Janina Sajka]

Charles:

A couple of things about this:

1.)	My experience with vendor installed linux is that they often don't
install alll the packages I need. I have seen this with my IBM laptop,
which came with Caldera 2.4 Desktop preinstalled, and with Redhat 7.0 (my
own installation), when I selected the "laptop" install. I have reverted
to doing custom installs. My experience is that the default vendor
installs are skewed toward the gui (not surprisingly) and that, therefore,
various console utilities are missing. Now, one can certainly add these by
hand, but it's just easier to install them up front and not mess with some
vendor's idea of what you should have;

2.)	It is unlikely hp (or any other vendor) will speech-enable their
linux installs until these are part of the distributions themselves--until
speakup is part of Redhat, Debian, Slackware, etc. That's the effort that
will pay off best, imho;

3.)	We may not actually want to speech enable your server. Radical as
that sounds, speakup does slow down the computer, in my experience. Kirk,
may not agree, but this is my experience, and that of several others. Let
me defend this suggestion by asking why we would put speech on the machine
if we're going to locate it at some server farm were we're never going to
see it? All administration will be done over the wire--so the machine
should be built optimized for access over the wire, and not for access on
a local console, imho;

Just my two cents on this. Glad to see that you're getting more
comfortable about the commercial viability of linux, though! <big grin>

 On
Fri, 24 Aug 2001, Charles Crawford wrote:

> 	I don't know what others may know about this, but I was impressed when I
> went over to the HP.com page to discover they have linux servers and
> desktops for sale.  Very interesting indeed.  Now I need to contact them
> and make sure they have the versions that support speech.  Maybe, we could
> actually get them to offer speech interface as a feature when prchasing is
> made?
>
> -- Charlie.
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> Speakup mailing list
> Speakup@braille.uwo.ca
> http://speech.braille.uwo.ca/mailman/listinfo/speakup
>

-- 

				Janina Sajka, Director
				Technology Research and Development
				Governmental Relations Group
				American Foundation for the Blind (AFB)

Email: janina@afb.net		Phone: (202) 408-8175

Chair, Accessibility SIG
Open Electronic Book Forum (OEBF)
http://www.openebook.org

Will electronic books surpass print books? Read our white paper,
Surpassing Gutenberg, at http://www.afb.org/ebook.asp

Download a free sample Digital Talking Book edition of Martin Luther
King Jr's inspiring "I Have A Dream" speech at
http://www.afb.org/mlkweb.asp

Learn how to make accessible software at
http://www.afb.org/accessapp.asp

Re: Hewlet Packard and Linux

[Gregory Nowak]

Do they give the distro cds with theese
preinstalled machines?
Greg


On Fri, Aug 24, 2001 at 10:58:31AM -0400, Janina Sajka wrote:
> Charles:
> 
> A couple of things about this:
> 
> 1.)	My experience with vendor installed linux is that they often don't
> install alll the packages I need. I have seen this with my IBM laptop,
> which came with Caldera 2.4 Desktop preinstalled, and with Redhat 7.0 (my
> own installation), when I selected the "laptop" install. I have reverted
> to doing custom installs. My experience is that the default vendor
> installs are skewed toward the gui (not surprisingly) and that, therefore,
> various console utilities are missing. Now, one can certainly add these by
> hand, but it's just easier to install them up front and not mess with some
> vendor's idea of what you should have;
> 
> 2.)	It is unlikely hp (or any other vendor) will speech-enable their
> linux installs until these are part of the distributions themselves--until
> speakup is part of Redhat, Debian, Slackware, etc. That's the effort that
> will pay off best, imho;
> 
> 3.)	We may not actually want to speech enable your server. Radical as
> that sounds, speakup does slow down the computer, in my experience. Kirk,
> may not agree, but this is my experience, and that of several others. Let
> me defend this suggestion by asking why we would put speech on the machine
> if we're going to locate it at some server farm were we're never going to
> see it? All administration will be done over the wire--so the machine
> should be built optimized for access over the wire, and not for access on
> a local console, imho;
> 
> Just my two cents on this. Glad to see that you're getting more
> comfortable about the commercial viability of linux, though! <big grin>
> 
>  On
> Fri, 24 Aug 2001, Charles Crawford wrote:
> 
> > 	I don't know what others may know about this, but I was impressed when I
> > went over to the HP.com page to discover they have linux servers and
> > desktops for sale.  Very interesting indeed.  Now I need to contact them
> > and make sure they have the versions that support speech.  Maybe, we could
> > actually get them to offer speech interface as a feature when prchasing is
> > made?
> >
> > -- Charlie.
> >
> >
> > _______________________________________________
> > Speakup mailing list
> > Speakup@braille.uwo.ca
> > http://speech.braille.uwo.ca/mailman/listinfo/speakup
> >
> 
> -- 
> 
> 				Janina Sajka, Director
> 				Technology Research and Development
> 				Governmental Relations Group
> 				American Foundation for the Blind (AFB)
> 
> Email: janina@afb.net		Phone: (202) 408-8175
> 
> Chair, Accessibility SIG
> Open Electronic Book Forum (OEBF)
> http://www.openebook.org
> 
> Will electronic books surpass print books? Read our white paper,
> Surpassing Gutenberg, at http://www.afb.org/ebook.asp
> 
> Download a free sample Digital Talking Book edition of Martin Luther
> King Jr's inspiring "I Have A Dream" speech at
> http://www.afb.org/mlkweb.asp
> 
> Learn how to make accessible software at
> http://www.afb.org/accessapp.asp
> 
> 
> _______________________________________________
> Speakup mailing list
> Speakup@braille.uwo.ca
> http://speech.braille.uwo.ca/mailman/listinfo/speakup

Re: Hewlet Packard and Linux

[Charles Crawford]

Janina and all,

	I agree that ACB would not be putting speech on a server located where 
nobody needs it.  I do think however that if we are looking at Linux as an 
open system as a major selling point and if we are to force consideration 
of speech interfacing to at least mitigate the damages that can be done by 
full speed ahead Gui development, then we need to take some advocacy 
position that gets the attention of companies.  While the same points can 
be made on a relative scale about Microsoft, there is the underlying value 
of openess to Linux that could easily get lost on our issues if we do not 
take a more proactive stance.

	I had for example an exchange of email with the owner of an accessibility 
software house in which I pointed out that Linux ought to be 
supported.  The answer was no market, and until there is one; not much will 
happen.

	So the bottom line is if we want to advance Linux as a solution then it 
must compete in the mainstream for access as well as other things.

	Hope this made some sense.

-- Charlie.

Re: Hewlet Packard and Linux

[David Poehlman]

this seems to be a catch 22 no market no support no support no market.
I think some brave soul should begin to outlet it so that there will be
a market.  Of course, there are other barriers to break as well.

----- Original Message -----
From: "Charles Crawford" <CCrawford@ACB.org>
To: <speakup@braille.uwo.ca>
Sent: Friday, August 24, 2001 11:52 AM
Subject: Re: Hewlet Packard and Linux


Janina and all,

I agree that ACB would not be putting speech on a server located where
nobody needs it.  I do think however that if we are looking at Linux as
an
open system as a major selling point and if we are to force
consideration
of speech interfacing to at least mitigate the damages that can be done
by
full speed ahead Gui development, then we need to take some advocacy
position that gets the attention of companies.  While the same points
can
be made on a relative scale about Microsoft, there is the underlying
value
of openess to Linux that could easily get lost on our issues if we do
not
take a more proactive stance.

I had for example an exchange of email with the owner of an
accessibility
software house in which I pointed out that Linux ought to be
supported.  The answer was no market, and until there is one; not much
will
happen.

So the bottom line is if we want to advance Linux as a solution then it
must compete in the mainstream for access as well as other things.

Hope this made some sense.

-- Charlie.



_______________________________________________
Speakup mailing list
Speakup@braille.uwo.ca
http://speech.braille.uwo.ca/mailman/listinfo/speakup

Re: Hewlet Packard and Linux

[Janina Sajka]

Well, their answer of "no market" might be closer to the truth than one
might think at first blush. What market is there in something that you get
for free? You can't live on a commission if the sale costs $0.00. They may
have said "no market," but the radical truth is more like "We haven't a
clue of how to get money for it."

 On Fri, 24 Aug 2001, Charles Crawford
wrote:

> Janina and all,
>
> 	I agree that ACB would not be putting speech on a server located where
> nobody needs it.  I do think however that if we are looking at Linux as an
> open system as a major selling point and if we are to force consideration
> of speech interfacing to at least mitigate the damages that can be done by
> full speed ahead Gui development, then we need to take some advocacy
> position that gets the attention of companies.  While the same points can
> be made on a relative scale about Microsoft, there is the underlying value
> of openess to Linux that could easily get lost on our issues if we do not
> take a more proactive stance.
>
> 	I had for example an exchange of email with the owner of an accessibility
> software house in which I pointed out that Linux ought to be
> supported.  The answer was no market, and until there is one; not much will
> happen.
>
> 	So the bottom line is if we want to advance Linux as a solution then it
> must compete in the mainstream for access as well as other things.
>
> 	Hope this made some sense.
>
> -- Charlie.
>
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> Speakup mailing list
> Speakup@braille.uwo.ca
> http://speech.braille.uwo.ca/mailman/listinfo/speakup
>

-- 

				Janina Sajka, Director
				Technology Research and Development
				Governmental Relations Group
				American Foundation for the Blind (AFB)

Email: janina@afb.net		Phone: (202) 408-8175

Chair, Accessibility SIG
Open Electronic Book Forum (OEBF)
http://www.openebook.org

Will electronic books surpass print books? Read our white paper,
Surpassing Gutenberg, at http://www.afb.org/ebook.asp

Download a free sample Digital Talking Book edition of Martin Luther
King Jr's inspiring "I Have A Dream" speech at
http://www.afb.org/mlkweb.asp

Learn how to make accessible software at
http://www.afb.org/accessapp.asp

Re: Hewlet Packard and Linux

[Liz Hare]

>"no market," but the radical truth is more like "We haven't a
>clue of how to get money for it."

Forgive a comment from an extreme newbie who doesn't even *have* Linux yet.

I've been looking at the companies who make Linux preinstalled systems 
(there's a long list at linux.org), and they seem to have some kind of 
market niche because some of them use hardware that has been tested and is 
known to be Linux-compatible.  With the Windoze dominance of the entire 
computing market, it's attractive to me to buy a system whose components 
are known to be compatible with Linux.  It seems better than ordering 
elsewhere and not being sure the different parts of the system will work 
well with Linux.

any comments or thoughts?

Liz
Liz Hare, Ph.D.
Research Associate
Animal Breeding and Genetics Group
B47 Morrison Hall
Cornell University
Ithaca, NY 14853	
(607) 255 2380	
eh51@cornell.edu

Re: Hewlet Packard and Linux

[Janina Sajka]

Liz:

I think Charley was talking about accessibility companies. I think that
would be folks like GW and Freedom Scientific.

Can one make money in linux? Absolutely--but you do it differently than
you do in Windows. History is replete with examples of companies that had
thriving businesses and then went out of business because they failed to
understand how to make a go of it when the earth moved under their feet.

Anyone remember Smith-Corona?

Or, how about Remington/Univac? They were even into computers.

On Fri, 24 Aug 2001, Liz Hare wrote:

>
> >"no market," but the radical truth is more like "We haven't a
> >clue of how to get money for it."
>
> Forgive a comment from an extreme newbie who doesn't even *have* Linux yet.
>
> I've been looking at the companies who make Linux preinstalled systems
> (there's a long list at linux.org), and they seem to have some kind of
> market niche because some of them use hardware that has been tested and is
> known to be Linux-compatible.  With the Windoze dominance of the entire
> computing market, it's attractive to me to buy a system whose components
> are known to be compatible with Linux.  It seems better than ordering
> elsewhere and not being sure the different parts of the system will work
> well with Linux.
>
> any comments or thoughts?
>
> Liz
> Liz Hare, Ph.D.
> Research Associate
> Animal Breeding and Genetics Group
> B47 Morrison Hall
> Cornell University
> Ithaca, NY 14853
> (607) 255 2380
> eh51@cornell.edu
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> Speakup mailing list
> Speakup@braille.uwo.ca
> http://speech.braille.uwo.ca/mailman/listinfo/speakup
>

-- 

				Janina Sajka, Director
				Technology Research and Development
				Governmental Relations Group
				American Foundation for the Blind (AFB)

Email: janina@afb.net		Phone: (202) 408-8175

Chair, Accessibility SIG
Open Electronic Book Forum (OEBF)
http://www.openebook.org

Will electronic books surpass print books? Read our white paper,
Surpassing Gutenberg, at http://www.afb.org/ebook.asp

Download a free sample Digital Talking Book edition of Martin Luther
King Jr's inspiring "I Have A Dream" speech at
http://www.afb.org/mlkweb.asp

Learn how to make accessible software at
http://www.afb.org/accessapp.asp

Re: Hewlet Packard and Linux

[Charles Crawford]

Liz,

         I think you are wise to get ahead of the game by doing the stuff 
Linux can do without the heartaches of configure configure configure.  If 
Linux is to make the mainstream or at least a brook, then it has to work 
for the average person without too much of the configuring issues.  I know, 
its kind of plug and play, but why not have our cake and eat it too?  We 
get the ease of setup and the power of Linux.  What's not to like?  Smile.

         My bigger concern is the Xwindows problem of a repeat of what 
Windows did to DOS.

-- Charlie.
At 04:12 PM 08/24/2001 -0400, you wrote:

>>"no market," but the radical truth is more like "We haven't a
>>clue of how to get money for it."
>
>Forgive a comment from an extreme newbie who doesn't even *have* Linux yet.
>
>I've been looking at the companies who make Linux preinstalled systems 
>(there's a long list at linux.org), and they seem to have some kind of 
>market niche because some of them use hardware that has been tested and is 
>known to be Linux-compatible.  With the Windoze dominance of the entire 
>computing market, it's attractive to me to buy a system whose components 
>are known to be compatible with Linux.  It seems better than ordering 
>elsewhere and not being sure the different parts of the system will work 
>well with Linux.
>
>any comments or thoughts?
>
>Liz
>Liz Hare, Ph.D.
>Research Associate
>Animal Breeding and Genetics Group
>B47 Morrison Hall
>Cornell University
>Ithaca, NY 14853
>(607) 255 2380
>eh51@cornell.edu
>
>
>_______________________________________________
>Speakup mailing list
>Speakup@braille.uwo.ca
>http://speech.braille.uwo.ca/mailman/listinfo/speakup

Re: Hewlet Packard and Linux

[Gregory Nowak]

Linux is not a comercial product
in the way that macroslop windows is.
So, I don't think you have anything to worry about.
There will always have to be a text console on a system, and you can edit init scripts
to provent xwindows from starting up.
Greg


On Fri, Aug 24, 2001 at 09:33:46PM -0400, Charles Crawford wrote:
> Liz,
> 
>          I think you are wise to get ahead of the game by doing the stuff 
> Linux can do without the heartaches of configure configure configure.  If 
> Linux is to make the mainstream or at least a brook, then it has to work 
> for the average person without too much of the configuring issues.  I know, 
> its kind of plug and play, but why not have our cake and eat it too?  We 
> get the ease of setup and the power of Linux.  What's not to like?  Smile.
> 
>          My bigger concern is the Xwindows problem of a repeat of what 
> Windows did to DOS.
> 
> -- Charlie.
> At 04:12 PM 08/24/2001 -0400, you wrote:
> 
> >>"no market," but the radical truth is more like "We haven't a
> >>clue of how to get money for it."
> >
> >Forgive a comment from an extreme newbie who doesn't even *have* Linux yet.
> >
> >I've been looking at the companies who make Linux preinstalled systems 
> >(there's a long list at linux.org), and they seem to have some kind of 
> >market niche because some of them use hardware that has been tested and is 
> >known to be Linux-compatible.  With the Windoze dominance of the entire 
> >computing market, it's attractive to me to buy a system whose components 
> >are known to be compatible with Linux.  It seems better than ordering 
> >elsewhere and not being sure the different parts of the system will work 
> >well with Linux.
> >
> >any comments or thoughts?
> >
> >Liz
> >Liz Hare, Ph.D.
> >Research Associate
> >Animal Breeding and Genetics Group
> >B47 Morrison Hall
> >Cornell University
> >Ithaca, NY 14853
> >(607) 255 2380
> >eh51@cornell.edu
> >
> >
> >_______________________________________________
> >Speakup mailing list
> >Speakup@braille.uwo.ca
> >http://speech.braille.uwo.ca/mailman/listinfo/speakup
> 
> 
> _______________________________________________
> Speakup mailing list
> Speakup@braille.uwo.ca
> http://speech.braille.uwo.ca/mailman/listinfo/speakup

Re: Hewlet Packard and Linux

[Rodney Clowdus]

Could not agree with you more.  In the real world there are mechanics who
love the joy of building a fine running engine and getting under the hood
to fine tune it.  Then there are most people who could care less what's
under the hood as long as it's pretty, it runs and gets them from point a
to point b.  Likewise with Linux.  There are those who love to write
software without restraints and those who love to configure that software
to their style and taste.  That's the beauty of Linux and the thousands of
text based programs.  Yes every text based program has to be learned and
configured but that's the fun of it.  A blind person can configure Linux
however he pleases and yes it's a greasy job but at least we'll know how
to make it run like we want it and not like somebody else tells us how it
should be.
I'm learning the ropes of alsaplayer, freeamp, alsamixer, pmidi, play,
sfxload, etc:  I'm also learning about the many powerful features of the
Sound Blaster Live card.  I'm able to do things I could never do in
Winblows or a stereo player.  I can configure these command line programs
to play whatever songs I want to hear.  I can name my files whatever I
want to allow for better archiving for easier retrieving.  For example I
just figured out a few minutes ago that I can save my irish bagpipe .mp3
files by adding an extra extension to the end of .mp3 like for example a
song named  < sailer's lament.mp3.bp >  I added an .bp at the end of .mp3
so that when I want to play all my bagpipe mp3 files which may be in my
music directory I just simply type freeamp *.mp3.bp and bingo all my
bagpipe songs will play until all of the files with the extension bp at
the end of .mp3 are finished playing!  Now that's the joy of Linux!  Linux
allows me to listen to music in a way that's virtually impossible using
Windblows or a fancy expensive stereo equipment.
I just thought of another idea while I'm typing and that's the another
beauty about Linux if you can think it you can do it. Suppose you have
your favorite country music among others.  Just add fc to the end of the
mp3 extension and you can create a script that runs freeamp that allows
you just to type myfavoritecountrymusic and bingo all your favorite
country music starts up!  The possiblity are endless and that's why it's
hard to find a pre-configured Linux box to do everything like you want it
because every Linux box is probably configured to that person's taste.
We are a Linux community and we share our configurations and ideas with
others.  It's all about sharing.  We will never need the commercialized
version of Linux to fit our needs.  The blind linux community has all the
tools we need to share and to explore the endless possiblities.  We have
the tools to make the best speech interface computer this world has yet to
see.  We are just getting started.  We have not yet begun to fight. And in
accordance to a famous line "Give me liberty or give me death!"  "Give me
Linux or give me Windows!" Take your pick. <grin>
Rodney
The Weaving Beaver
rclowdus@kcnet.com
"Chop your own firewood and it will warm you twice."
"Weave your own cloth and it will reward you twice."

On Fri, 24 Aug 2001, Gregory Nowak wrote:

> Linux is not a comercial product
> in the way that macroslop windows is.
> So, I don't think you have anything to worry about.
> There will always have to be a text console on a system, and you can edit init scripts
> to provent xwindows from starting up.
> Greg
>
>
> On Fri, Aug 24, 2001 at 09:33:46PM -0400, Charles Crawford wrote:
> > Liz,
> >
> >          I think you are wise to get ahead of the game by doing the stuff
> > Linux can do without the heartaches of configure configure configure.  If
> > Linux is to make the mainstream or at least a brook, then it has to work
> > for the average person without too much of the configuring issues.  I know,
> > its kind of plug and play, but why not have our cake and eat it too?  We
> > get the ease of setup and the power of Linux.  What's not to like?  Smile.
> >
> >          My bigger concern is the Xwindows problem of a repeat of what
> > Windows did to DOS.
> >
> > -- Charlie.
> > At 04:12 PM 08/24/2001 -0400, you wrote:
> >
> > >>"no market," but the radical truth is more like "We haven't a
> > >>clue of how to get money for it."
> > >
> > >Forgive a comment from an extreme newbie who doesn't even *have* Linux yet.
> > >
> > >I've been looking at the companies who make Linux preinstalled systems
> > >(there's a long list at linux.org), and they seem to have some kind of
> > >market niche because some of them use hardware that has been tested and is
> > >known to be Linux-compatible.  With the Windoze dominance of the entire
> > >computing market, it's attractive to me to buy a system whose components
> > >are known to be compatible with Linux.  It seems better than ordering
> > >elsewhere and not being sure the different parts of the system will work
> > >well with Linux.
> > >
> > >any comments or thoughts?
> > >
> > >Liz
> > >Liz Hare, Ph.D.
> > >Research Associate
> > >Animal Breeding and Genetics Group
> > >B47 Morrison Hall
> > >Cornell University
> > >Ithaca, NY 14853
> > >(607) 255 2380
> > >eh51@cornell.edu
> > >
> > >
> > >_______________________________________________
> > >Speakup mailing list
> > >Speakup@braille.uwo.ca
> > >http://speech.braille.uwo.ca/mailman/listinfo/speakup
> >
> >
> > _______________________________________________
> > Speakup mailing list
> > Speakup@braille.uwo.ca
> > http://speech.braille.uwo.ca/mailman/listinfo/speakup
>
> _______________________________________________
> Speakup mailing list
> Speakup@braille.uwo.ca
> http://speech.braille.uwo.ca/mailman/listinfo/speakup
>

Re: Hewlet Packard and Linux

[Charles Hallenbeck]

I know it is a waste of precious bandwidth to just say "Me too!" but I
would like to endorse Rodney's view -

Me too!

Chuck

On Sat, 25 Aug 2001, Rodney Clowdus wrote:

> Could not agree with you more.  In the real world there are mechanics who
> love the joy of building a fine running engine and getting under the hood
> to fine tune it.  Then there are most people who could care less what's
> under the hood as long as it's pretty, it runs and gets them from point a
> to point b.  Likewise with Linux.  There are those who love to write
> software without restraints and those who love to configure that software
> to their style and taste.  That's the beauty of Linux and the thousands of
> text based programs.  Yes every text based program has to be learned and
> configured but that's the fun of it.  A blind person can configure Linux
> however he pleases and yes it's a greasy job but at least we'll know how
> to make it run like we want it and not like somebody else tells us how it
> should be.
<snip>



Visit me at http://www.mhonline.net/~chuckh 
The Moon is Waxing Crescent (46% of Full)

Re: Hewlet Packard and Linux

[Charles Crawford]

Well said Rodney and it truly appeals to the programming part of me.  I 
guess my concerns are that there are many who just want a computer that 
offers them flexibility without as you say getting under the hood.  If our 
workplaces, educational institutions, and other main stream parts of life 
are off with Windows, then resources get targeted there and a really good 
thing gets marginalized.  I would be interested to hear from others and 
maybe I am just getting too esoteric?

-- Charlie.
At 01:32 AM 08/25/2001 -0500, you wrote:
>Could not agree with you more.  In the real world there are mechanics who
>love the joy of building a fine running engine and getting under the hood
>to fine tune it.  Then there are most people who could care less what's
>under the hood as long as it's pretty, it runs and gets them from point a
>to point b.  Likewise with Linux.  There are those who love to write
>software without restraints and those who love to configure that software
>to their style and taste.  That's the beauty of Linux and the thousands of
>text based programs.  Yes every text based program has to be learned and
>configured but that's the fun of it.  A blind person can configure Linux
>however he pleases and yes it's a greasy job but at least we'll know how
>to make it run like we want it and not like somebody else tells us how it
>should be.
>I'm learning the ropes of alsaplayer, freeamp, alsamixer, pmidi, play,
>sfxload, etc:  I'm also learning about the many powerful features of the
>Sound Blaster Live card.  I'm able to do things I could never do in
>Winblows or a stereo player.  I can configure these command line programs
>to play whatever songs I want to hear.  I can name my files whatever I
>want to allow for better archiving for easier retrieving.  For example I
>just figured out a few minutes ago that I can save my irish bagpipe .mp3
>files by adding an extra extension to the end of .mp3 like for example a
>song named  < sailer's lament.mp3.bp >  I added an .bp at the end of .mp3
>so that when I want to play all my bagpipe mp3 files which may be in my
>music directory I just simply type freeamp *.mp3.bp and bingo all my
>bagpipe songs will play until all of the files with the extension bp at
>the end of .mp3 are finished playing!  Now that's the joy of Linux!  Linux
>allows me to listen to music in a way that's virtually impossible using
>Windblows or a fancy expensive stereo equipment.
>I just thought of another idea while I'm typing and that's the another
>beauty about Linux if you can think it you can do it. Suppose you have
>your favorite country music among others.  Just add fc to the end of the
>mp3 extension and you can create a script that runs freeamp that allows
>you just to type myfavoritecountrymusic and bingo all your favorite
>country music starts up!  The possiblity are endless and that's why it's
>hard to find a pre-configured Linux box to do everything like you want it
>because every Linux box is probably configured to that person's taste.
>We are a Linux community and we share our configurations and ideas with
>others.  It's all about sharing.  We will never need the commercialized
>version of Linux to fit our needs.  The blind linux community has all the
>tools we need to share and to explore the endless possiblities.  We have
>the tools to make the best speech interface computer this world has yet to
>see.  We are just getting started.  We have not yet begun to fight. And in
>accordance to a famous line "Give me liberty or give me death!"  "Give me
>Linux or give me Windows!" Take your pick. <grin>
>Rodney
>The Weaving Beaver
>rclowdus@kcnet.com
>"Chop your own firewood and it will warm you twice."
>"Weave your own cloth and it will reward you twice."
>
>On Fri, 24 Aug 2001, Gregory Nowak wrote:
>
> > Linux is not a comercial product
> > in the way that macroslop windows is.
> > So, I don't think you have anything to worry about.
> > There will always have to be a text console on a system, and you can 
> edit init scripts
> > to provent xwindows from starting up.
> > Greg
> >
> >
> > On Fri, Aug 24, 2001 at 09:33:46PM -0400, Charles Crawford wrote:
> > > Liz,
> > >
> > >          I think you are wise to get ahead of the game by doing the stuff
> > > Linux can do without the heartaches of configure configure configure.  If
> > > Linux is to make the mainstream or at least a brook, then it has to work
> > > for the average person without too much of the configuring issues.  I 
> know,
> > > its kind of plug and play, but why not have our cake and eat it too?  We
> > > get the ease of setup and the power of Linux.  What's not to 
> like?  Smile.
> > >
> > >          My bigger concern is the Xwindows problem of a repeat of what
> > > Windows did to DOS.
> > >
> > > -- Charlie.
> > > At 04:12 PM 08/24/2001 -0400, you wrote:
> > >
> > > >>"no market," but the radical truth is more like "We haven't a
> > > >>clue of how to get money for it."
> > > >
> > > >Forgive a comment from an extreme newbie who doesn't even *have* 
> Linux yet.
> > > >
> > > >I've been looking at the companies who make Linux preinstalled systems
> > > >(there's a long list at linux.org), and they seem to have some kind of
> > > >market niche because some of them use hardware that has been tested 
> and is
> > > >known to be Linux-compatible.  With the Windoze dominance of the entire
> > > >computing market, it's attractive to me to buy a system whose components
> > > >are known to be compatible with Linux.  It seems better than ordering
> > > >elsewhere and not being sure the different parts of the system will work
> > > >well with Linux.
> > > >
> > > >any comments or thoughts?
> > > >
> > > >Liz
> > > >Liz Hare, Ph.D.
> > > >Research Associate
> > > >Animal Breeding and Genetics Group
> > > >B47 Morrison Hall
> > > >Cornell University
> > > >Ithaca, NY 14853
> > > >(607) 255 2380
> > > >eh51@cornell.edu
> > > >
> > > >
> > > >_______________________________________________
> > > >Speakup mailing list
> > > >Speakup@braille.uwo.ca
> > > >http://speech.braille.uwo.ca/mailman/listinfo/speakup
> > >
> > >
> > > _______________________________________________
> > > Speakup mailing list
> > > Speakup@braille.uwo.ca
> > > http://speech.braille.uwo.ca/mailman/listinfo/speakup
> >
> > _______________________________________________
> > Speakup mailing list
> > Speakup@braille.uwo.ca
> > http://speech.braille.uwo.ca/mailman/listinfo/speakup
> >
>
>
>_______________________________________________
>Speakup mailing list
>Speakup@braille.uwo.ca
>http://speech.braille.uwo.ca/mailman/listinfo/speakup

Re: Hewlet Packard and Linux

[David Poehlman]

Charley,

For those who want it easy, we can make it easy.  Before windows crashed
on to the scene, dos was beginning to take a form that did not force
anyone to know a whole lot about it to drive it and you could even do it
yourself.  I configured several machines such that the first thing that
was seen was a menu to select what you wanted to do.  I even set up
machines so that you booted directly to dial up or wp.

You already know this though.  Well, with shell commands in the boot, we
can do the same for users of linux who are not into arcana

I am personally into it but still have a lot to learn.
.

----- Original Message -----
From: "Charles Crawford" <ccrawford@acb.org>
To: <speakup@braille.uwo.ca>
Sent: Saturday, August 25, 2001 8:42 AM
Subject: Re: Hewlet Packard and Linux


Well said Rodney and it truly appeals to the programming part of me.  I
guess my concerns are that there are many who just want a computer that
offers them flexibility without as you say getting under the hood.  If
our
workplaces, educational institutions, and other main stream parts of
life
are off with Windows, then resources get targeted there and a really
good
thing gets marginalized.  I would be interested to hear from others and
maybe I am just getting too esoteric?

-- Charlie.
At 01:32 AM 08/25/2001 -0500, you wrote:
>Could not agree with you more.  In the real world there are mechanics
who
>love the joy of building a fine running engine and getting under the
hood
>to fine tune it.  Then there are most people who could care less what's
>under the hood as long as it's pretty, it runs and gets them from point
a
>to point b.  Likewise with Linux.  There are those who love to write
>software without restraints and those who love to configure that
software
>to their style and taste.  That's the beauty of Linux and the thousands
of
>text based programs.  Yes every text based program has to be learned
and
>configured but that's the fun of it.  A blind person can configure
Linux
>however he pleases and yes it's a greasy job but at least we'll know
how
>to make it run like we want it and not like somebody else tells us how
it
>should be.
>I'm learning the ropes of alsaplayer, freeamp, alsamixer, pmidi, play,
>sfxload, etc:  I'm also learning about the many powerful features of
the
>Sound Blaster Live card.  I'm able to do things I could never do in
>Winblows or a stereo player.  I can configure these command line
programs
>to play whatever songs I want to hear.  I can name my files whatever I
>want to allow for better archiving for easier retrieving.  For example
I
>just figured out a few minutes ago that I can save my irish bagpipe
.mp3
>files by adding an extra extension to the end of .mp3 like for example
a
>song named  < sailer's lament.mp3.bp >  I added an .bp at the end of
.mp3
>so that when I want to play all my bagpipe mp3 files which may be in my
>music directory I just simply type freeamp *.mp3.bp and bingo all my
>bagpipe songs will play until all of the files with the extension bp at
>the end of .mp3 are finished playing!  Now that's the joy of Linux!
Linux
>allows me to listen to music in a way that's virtually impossible using
>Windblows or a fancy expensive stereo equipment.
>I just thought of another idea while I'm typing and that's the another
>beauty about Linux if you can think it you can do it. Suppose you have
>your favorite country music among others.  Just add fc to the end of
the
>mp3 extension and you can create a script that runs freeamp that allows
>you just to type myfavoritecountrymusic and bingo all your favorite
>country music starts up!  The possiblity are endless and that's why
it's
>hard to find a pre-configured Linux box to do everything like you want
it
>because every Linux box is probably configured to that person's taste.
>We are a Linux community and we share our configurations and ideas with
>others.  It's all about sharing.  We will never need the commercialized
>version of Linux to fit our needs.  The blind linux community has all
the
>tools we need to share and to explore the endless possiblities.  We
have
>the tools to make the best speech interface computer this world has yet
to
>see.  We are just getting started.  We have not yet begun to fight. And
in
>accordance to a famous line "Give me liberty or give me death!"  "Give
me
>Linux or give me Windows!" Take your pick. <grin>
>Rodney
>The Weaving Beaver
>rclowdus@kcnet.com
>"Chop your own firewood and it will warm you twice."
>"Weave your own cloth and it will reward you twice."
>
>On Fri, 24 Aug 2001, Gregory Nowak wrote:
>
> > Linux is not a comercial product
> > in the way that macroslop windows is.
> > So, I don't think you have anything to worry about.
> > There will always have to be a text console on a system, and you can
> edit init scripts
> > to provent xwindows from starting up.
> > Greg
> >
> >
> > On Fri, Aug 24, 2001 at 09:33:46PM -0400, Charles Crawford wrote:
> > > Liz,
> > >
> > >          I think you are wise to get ahead of the game by doing
the stuff
> > > Linux can do without the heartaches of configure configure
configure.  If
> > > Linux is to make the mainstream or at least a brook, then it has
to work
> > > for the average person without too much of the configuring issues.
I
> know,
> > > its kind of plug and play, but why not have our cake and eat it
too?  We
> > > get the ease of setup and the power of Linux.  What's not to
> like?  Smile.
> > >
> > >          My bigger concern is the Xwindows problem of a repeat of
what
> > > Windows did to DOS.
> > >
> > > -- Charlie.
> > > At 04:12 PM 08/24/2001 -0400, you wrote:
> > >
> > > >>"no market," but the radical truth is more like "We haven't a
> > > >>clue of how to get money for it."
> > > >
> > > >Forgive a comment from an extreme newbie who doesn't even *have*
> Linux yet.
> > > >
> > > >I've been looking at the companies who make Linux preinstalled
systems
> > > >(there's a long list at linux.org), and they seem to have some
kind of
> > > >market niche because some of them use hardware that has been
tested
> and is
> > > >known to be Linux-compatible.  With the Windoze dominance of the
entire
> > > >computing market, it's attractive to me to buy a system whose
components
> > > >are known to be compatible with Linux.  It seems better than
ordering
> > > >elsewhere and not being sure the different parts of the system
will work
> > > >well with Linux.
> > > >
> > > >any comments or thoughts?
> > > >
> > > >Liz
> > > >Liz Hare, Ph.D.
> > > >Research Associate
> > > >Animal Breeding and Genetics Group
> > > >B47 Morrison Hall
> > > >Cornell University
> > > >Ithaca, NY 14853
> > > >(607) 255 2380
> > > >eh51@cornell.edu
> > > >
> > > >
> > > >_______________________________________________
> > > >Speakup mailing list
> > > >Speakup@braille.uwo.ca
> > > >http://speech.braille.uwo.ca/mailman/listinfo/speakup
> > >
> > >
> > > _______________________________________________
> > > Speakup mailing list
> > > Speakup@braille.uwo.ca
> > > http://speech.braille.uwo.ca/mailman/listinfo/speakup
> >
> > _______________________________________________
> > Speakup mailing list
> > Speakup@braille.uwo.ca
> > http://speech.braille.uwo.ca/mailman/listinfo/speakup
> >
>
>
>_______________________________________________
>Speakup mailing list
>Speakup@braille.uwo.ca
>http://speech.braille.uwo.ca/mailman/listinfo/speakup


_______________________________________________
Speakup mailing list
Speakup@braille.uwo.ca
http://speech.braille.uwo.ca/mailman/listinfo/speakup

Re: Hewlet Packard and Linux

[Peter M. Konka]

There was someone that told me that it is possible to take your Windows, 
and change it that it is all text.  I dont honesly remember who said this 
to me,  but he said that instead of icons, it turns everything to text 
menus or command loines.

If anyone ever heard of this?  Please let me know.  Because i'd be very 
interested to learn more about it...


-- Peter

At 10:59 AM 8/25/01 -0400, you wrote:
>Charley,
>
>For those who want it easy, we can make it easy.  Before windows crashed
>on to the scene, dos was beginning to take a form that did not force
>anyone to know a whole lot about it to drive it and you could even do it
>yourself.  I configured several machines such that the first thing that
>was seen was a menu to select what you wanted to do.  I even set up
>machines so that you booted directly to dial up or wp.
>
>You already know this though.  Well, with shell commands in the boot, we
>can do the same for users of linux who are not into arcana
>
>I am personally into it but still have a lot to learn.
>.
>
>----- Original Message -----
>From: "Charles Crawford" <ccrawford@acb.org>
>To: <speakup@braille.uwo.ca>
>Sent: Saturday, August 25, 2001 8:42 AM
>Subject: Re: Hewlet Packard and Linux
>
>
>Well said Rodney and it truly appeals to the programming part of me.  I
>guess my concerns are that there are many who just want a computer that
>offers them flexibility without as you say getting under the hood.  If
>our
>workplaces, educational institutions, and other main stream parts of
>life
>are off with Windows, then resources get targeted there and a really
>good
>thing gets marginalized.  I would be interested to hear from others and
>maybe I am just getting too esoteric?
>
>-- Charlie.
>At 01:32 AM 08/25/2001 -0500, you wrote:
> >Could not agree with you more.  In the real world there are mechanics
>who
> >love the joy of building a fine running engine and getting under the
>hood
> >to fine tune it.  Then there are most people who could care less what's
> >under the hood as long as it's pretty, it runs and gets them from point
>a
> >to point b.  Likewise with Linux.  There are those who love to write
> >software without restraints and those who love to configure that
>software
> >to their style and taste.  That's the beauty of Linux and the thousands
>of
> >text based programs.  Yes every text based program has to be learned
>and
> >configured but that's the fun of it.  A blind person can configure
>Linux
> >however he pleases and yes it's a greasy job but at least we'll know
>how
> >to make it run like we want it and not like somebody else tells us how
>it
> >should be.
> >I'm learning the ropes of alsaplayer, freeamp, alsamixer, pmidi, play,
> >sfxload, etc:  I'm also learning about the many powerful features of
>the
> >Sound Blaster Live card.  I'm able to do things I could never do in
> >Winblows or a stereo player.  I can configure these command line
>programs
> >to play whatever songs I want to hear.  I can name my files whatever I
> >want to allow for better archiving for easier retrieving.  For example
>I
> >just figured out a few minutes ago that I can save my irish bagpipe
>.mp3
> >files by adding an extra extension to the end of .mp3 like for example
>a
> >song named  < sailer's lament.mp3.bp >  I added an .bp at the end of
>.mp3
> >so that when I want to play all my bagpipe mp3 files which may be in my
> >music directory I just simply type freeamp *.mp3.bp and bingo all my
> >bagpipe songs will play until all of the files with the extension bp at
> >the end of .mp3 are finished playing!  Now that's the joy of Linux!
>Linux
> >allows me to listen to music in a way that's virtually impossible using
> >Windblows or a fancy expensive stereo equipment.
> >I just thought of another idea while I'm typing and that's the another
> >beauty about Linux if you can think it you can do it. Suppose you have
> >your favorite country music among others.  Just add fc to the end of
>the
> >mp3 extension and you can create a script that runs freeamp that allows
> >you just to type myfavoritecountrymusic and bingo all your favorite
> >country music starts up!  The possiblity are endless and that's why
>it's
> >hard to find a pre-configured Linux box to do everything like you want
>it
> >because every Linux box is probably configured to that person's taste.
> >We are a Linux community and we share our configurations and ideas with
> >others.  It's all about sharing.  We will never need the commercialized
> >version of Linux to fit our needs.  The blind linux community has all
>the
> >tools we need to share and to explore the endless possiblities.  We
>have
> >the tools to make the best speech interface computer this world has yet
>to
> >see.  We are just getting started.  We have not yet begun to fight. And
>in
> >accordance to a famous line "Give me liberty or give me death!"  "Give
>me
> >Linux or give me Windows!" Take your pick. <grin>
> >Rodney
> >The Weaving Beaver
> >rclowdus@kcnet.com
> >"Chop your own firewood and it will warm you twice."
> >"Weave your own cloth and it will reward you twice."
> >
> >On Fri, 24 Aug 2001, Gregory Nowak wrote:
> >
> > > Linux is not a comercial product
> > > in the way that macroslop windows is.
> > > So, I don't think you have anything to worry about.
> > > There will always have to be a text console on a system, and you can
> > edit init scripts
> > > to provent xwindows from starting up.
> > > Greg
> > >
> > >
> > > On Fri, Aug 24, 2001 at 09:33:46PM -0400, Charles Crawford wrote:
> > > > Liz,
> > > >
> > > >          I think you are wise to get ahead of the game by doing
>the stuff
> > > > Linux can do without the heartaches of configure configure
>configure.  If
> > > > Linux is to make the mainstream or at least a brook, then it has
>to work
> > > > for the average person without too much of the configuring issues.
>I
> > know,
> > > > its kind of plug and play, but why not have our cake and eat it
>too?  We
> > > > get the ease of setup and the power of Linux.  What's not to
> > like?  Smile.
> > > >
> > > >          My bigger concern is the Xwindows problem of a repeat of
>what
> > > > Windows did to DOS.
> > > >
> > > > -- Charlie.
> > > > At 04:12 PM 08/24/2001 -0400, you wrote:
> > > >
> > > > >>"no market," but the radical truth is more like "We haven't a
> > > > >>clue of how to get money for it."
> > > > >
> > > > >Forgive a comment from an extreme newbie who doesn't even *have*
> > Linux yet.
> > > > >
> > > > >I've been looking at the companies who make Linux preinstalled
>systems
> > > > >(there's a long list at linux.org), and they seem to have some
>kind of
> > > > >market niche because some of them use hardware that has been
>tested
> > and is
> > > > >known to be Linux-compatible.  With the Windoze dominance of the
>entire
> > > > >computing market, it's attractive to me to buy a system whose
>components
> > > > >are known to be compatible with Linux.  It seems better than
>ordering
> > > > >elsewhere and not being sure the different parts of the system
>will work
> > > > >well with Linux.
> > > > >
> > > > >any comments or thoughts?
> > > > >
> > > > >Liz
> > > > >Liz Hare, Ph.D.
> > > > >Research Associate
> > > > >Animal Breeding and Genetics Group
> > > > >B47 Morrison Hall
> > > > >Cornell University
> > > > >Ithaca, NY 14853
> > > > >(607) 255 2380
> > > > >eh51@cornell.edu
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > >_______________________________________________
> > > > >Speakup mailing list
> > > > >Speakup@braille.uwo.ca
> > > > >http://speech.braille.uwo.ca/mailman/listinfo/speakup
> > > >
> > > >
> > > > _______________________________________________
> > > > Speakup mailing list
> > > > Speakup@braille.uwo.ca
> > > > http://speech.braille.uwo.ca/mailman/listinfo/speakup
> > >
> > > _______________________________________________
> > > Speakup mailing list
> > > Speakup@braille.uwo.ca
> > > http://speech.braille.uwo.ca/mailman/listinfo/speakup
> > >
> >
> >
> >_______________________________________________
> >Speakup mailing list
> >Speakup@braille.uwo.ca
> >http://speech.braille.uwo.ca/mailman/listinfo/speakup
>
>
>_______________________________________________
>Speakup mailing list
>Speakup@braille.uwo.ca
>http://speech.braille.uwo.ca/mailman/listinfo/speakup
>
>
>_______________________________________________
>Speakup mailing list
>Speakup@braille.uwo.ca
>http://speech.braille.uwo.ca/mailman/listinfo/speakup

Re: Hewlet Packard and Linux

[Gregory Nowak]

There is a comercial product that can
do that if your refering
to the junky windows, and not the Linux one.
I forget what it is called,
but it was described in iether the previous
or next to previous issue of the wifiwig news letter from
brailleinc.com
.
Greg


On Mon, Aug 27, 2001 at 09:50:58PM -0400, Peter M. Konka wrote:
> There was someone that told me that it is possible to take your Windows, 
> and change it that it is all text.  I dont honesly remember who said this 
> to me,  but he said that instead of icons, it turns everything to text 
> menus or command loines.
> 
> If anyone ever heard of this?  Please let me know.  Because i'd be very 
> interested to learn more about it...
> 
> 
> -- Peter
> 
> At 10:59 AM 8/25/01 -0400, you wrote:
> >Charley,
> >
> >For those who want it easy, we can make it easy.  Before windows crashed
> >on to the scene, dos was beginning to take a form that did not force
> >anyone to know a whole lot about it to drive it and you could even do it
> >yourself.  I configured several machines such that the first thing that
> >was seen was a menu to select what you wanted to do.  I even set up
> >machines so that you booted directly to dial up or wp.
> >
> >You already know this though.  Well, with shell commands in the boot, we
> >can do the same for users of linux who are not into arcana
> >
> >I am personally into it but still have a lot to learn.
> >.
> >
> >----- Original Message -----
> >From: "Charles Crawford" <ccrawford@acb.org>
> >To: <speakup@braille.uwo.ca>
> >Sent: Saturday, August 25, 2001 8:42 AM
> >Subject: Re: Hewlet Packard and Linux
> >
> >
> >Well said Rodney and it truly appeals to the programming part of me.  I
> >guess my concerns are that there are many who just want a computer that
> >offers them flexibility without as you say getting under the hood.  If
> >our
> >workplaces, educational institutions, and other main stream parts of
> >life
> >are off with Windows, then resources get targeted there and a really
> >good
> >thing gets marginalized.  I would be interested to hear from others and
> >maybe I am just getting too esoteric?
> >
> >-- Charlie.
> >At 01:32 AM 08/25/2001 -0500, you wrote:
> > >Could not agree with you more.  In the real world there are mechanics
> >who
> > >love the joy of building a fine running engine and getting under the
> >hood
> > >to fine tune it.  Then there are most people who could care less what's
> > >under the hood as long as it's pretty, it runs and gets them from point
> >a
> > >to point b.  Likewise with Linux.  There are those who love to write
> > >software without restraints and those who love to configure that
> >software
> > >to their style and taste.  That's the beauty of Linux and the thousands
> >of
> > >text based programs.  Yes every text based program has to be learned
> >and
> > >configured but that's the fun of it.  A blind person can configure
> >Linux
> > >however he pleases and yes it's a greasy job but at least we'll know
> >how
> > >to make it run like we want it and not like somebody else tells us how
> >it
> > >should be.
> > >I'm learning the ropes of alsaplayer, freeamp, alsamixer, pmidi, play,
> > >sfxload, etc:  I'm also learning about the many powerful features of
> >the
> > >Sound Blaster Live card.  I'm able to do things I could never do in
> > >Winblows or a stereo player.  I can configure these command line
> >programs
> > >to play whatever songs I want to hear.  I can name my files whatever I
> > >want to allow for better archiving for easier retrieving.  For example
> >I
> > >just figured out a few minutes ago that I can save my irish bagpipe
> >.mp3
> > >files by adding an extra extension to the end of .mp3 like for example
> >a
> > >song named  < sailer's lament.mp3.bp >  I added an .bp at the end of
> >.mp3
> > >so that when I want to play all my bagpipe mp3 files which may be in my
> > >music directory I just simply type freeamp *.mp3.bp and bingo all my
> > >bagpipe songs will play until all of the files with the extension bp at
> > >the end of .mp3 are finished playing!  Now that's the joy of Linux!
> >Linux
> > >allows me to listen to music in a way that's virtually impossible using
> > >Windblows or a fancy expensive stereo equipment.
> > >I just thought of another idea while I'm typing and that's the another
> > >beauty about Linux if you can think it you can do it. Suppose you have
> > >your favorite country music among others.  Just add fc to the end of
> >the
> > >mp3 extension and you can create a script that runs freeamp that allows
> > >you just to type myfavoritecountrymusic and bingo all your favorite
> > >country music starts up!  The possiblity are endless and that's why
> >it's
> > >hard to find a pre-configured Linux box to do everything like you want
> >it
> > >because every Linux box is probably configured to that person's taste.
> > >We are a Linux community and we share our configurations and ideas with
> > >others.  It's all about sharing.  We will never need the commercialized
> > >version of Linux to fit our needs.  The blind linux community has all
> >the
> > >tools we need to share and to explore the endless possiblities.  We
> >have
> > >the tools to make the best speech interface computer this world has yet
> >to
> > >see.  We are just getting started.  We have not yet begun to fight. And
> >in
> > >accordance to a famous line "Give me liberty or give me death!"  "Give
> >me
> > >Linux or give me Windows!" Take your pick. <grin>
> > >Rodney
> > >The Weaving Beaver
> > >rclowdus@kcnet.com
> > >"Chop your own firewood and it will warm you twice."
> > >"Weave your own cloth and it will reward you twice."
> > >
> > >On Fri, 24 Aug 2001, Gregory Nowak wrote:
> > >
> > > > Linux is not a comercial product
> > > > in the way that macroslop windows is.
> > > > So, I don't think you have anything to worry about.
> > > > There will always have to be a text console on a system, and you can
> > > edit init scripts
> > > > to provent xwindows from starting up.
> > > > Greg
> > > >
> > > >
> > > > On Fri, Aug 24, 2001 at 09:33:46PM -0400, Charles Crawford wrote:
> > > > > Liz,
> > > > >
> > > > >          I think you are wise to get ahead of the game by doing
> >the stuff
> > > > > Linux can do without the heartaches of configure configure
> >configure.  If
> > > > > Linux is to make the mainstream or at least a brook, then it has
> >to work
> > > > > for the average person without too much of the configuring issues.
> >I
> > > know,
> > > > > its kind of plug and play, but why not have our cake and eat it
> >too?  We
> > > > > get the ease of setup and the power of Linux.  What's not to
> > > like?  Smile.
> > > > >
> > > > >          My bigger concern is the Xwindows problem of a repeat of
> >what
> > > > > Windows did to DOS.
> > > > >
> > > > > -- Charlie.
> > > > > At 04:12 PM 08/24/2001 -0400, you wrote:
> > > > >
> > > > > >>"no market," but the radical truth is more like "We haven't a
> > > > > >>clue of how to get money for it."
> > > > > >
> > > > > >Forgive a comment from an extreme newbie who doesn't even *have*
> > > Linux yet.
> > > > > >
> > > > > >I've been looking at the companies who make Linux preinstalled
> >systems
> > > > > >(there's a long list at linux.org), and they seem to have some
> >kind of
> > > > > >market niche because some of them use hardware that has been
> >tested
> > > and is
> > > > > >known to be Linux-compatible.  With the Windoze dominance of the
> >entire
> > > > > >computing market, it's attractive to me to buy a system whose
> >components
> > > > > >are known to be compatible with Linux.  It seems better than
> >ordering
> > > > > >elsewhere and not being sure the different parts of the system
> >will work
> > > > > >well with Linux.
> > > > > >
> > > > > >any comments or thoughts?
> > > > > >
> > > > > >Liz
> > > > > >Liz Hare, Ph.D.
> > > > > >Research Associate
> > > > > >Animal Breeding and Genetics Group
> > > > > >B47 Morrison Hall
> > > > > >Cornell University
> > > > > >Ithaca, NY 14853
> > > > > >(607) 255 2380
> > > > > >eh51@cornell.edu
> > > > > >
> > > > > >
> > > > > >_______________________________________________
> > > > > >Speakup mailing list
> > > > > >Speakup@braille.uwo.ca
> > > > > >http://speech.braille.uwo.ca/mailman/listinfo/speakup
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > > _______________________________________________
> > > > > Speakup mailing list
> > > > > Speakup@braille.uwo.ca
> > > > > http://speech.braille.uwo.ca/mailman/listinfo/speakup
> > > >
> > > > _______________________________________________
> > > > Speakup mailing list
> > > > Speakup@braille.uwo.ca
> > > > http://speech.braille.uwo.ca/mailman/listinfo/speakup
> > > >
> > >
> > >
> > >_______________________________________________
> > >Speakup mailing list
> > >Speakup@braille.uwo.ca
> > >http://speech.braille.uwo.ca/mailman/listinfo/speakup
> >
> >
> >_______________________________________________
> >Speakup mailing list
> >Speakup@braille.uwo.ca
> >http://speech.braille.uwo.ca/mailman/listinfo/speakup
> >
> >
> >_______________________________________________
> >Speakup mailing list
> >Speakup@braille.uwo.ca
> >http://speech.braille.uwo.ca/mailman/listinfo/speakup
> 
> 
> _______________________________________________
> Speakup mailing list
> Speakup@braille.uwo.ca
> http://speech.braille.uwo.ca/mailman/listinfo/speakup

Re: Hewlet Packard and Linux

[David Poehlman]

there is software that does this but I don't remember what it is called.
you can also do this in windows.  I'll take a look on the microsoft site
and see what I can dig up.  I saw reference to something that they have
about it too.

----- Original Message -----
From: "Peter M. Konka" <pmk5485@concentric.net>
To: <speakup@braille.uwo.ca>
Sent: Monday, August 27, 2001 9:50 PM
Subject: Re: Hewlet Packard and Linux


There was someone that told me that it is possible to take your Windows,
and change it that it is all text.  I dont honesly remember who said
this
to me,  but he said that instead of icons, it turns everything to text
menus or command loines.

If anyone ever heard of this?  Please let me know.  Because i'd be very
interested to learn more about it...


-- Peter

At 10:59 AM 8/25/01 -0400, you wrote:
>Charley,
>
>For those who want it easy, we can make it easy.  Before windows
crashed
>on to the scene, dos was beginning to take a form that did not force
>anyone to know a whole lot about it to drive it and you could even do
it
>yourself.  I configured several machines such that the first thing that
>was seen was a menu to select what you wanted to do.  I even set up
>machines so that you booted directly to dial up or wp.
>
>You already know this though.  Well, with shell commands in the boot,
we
>can do the same for users of linux who are not into arcana
>
>I am personally into it but still have a lot to learn.
>.
>
>----- Original Message -----
>From: "Charles Crawford" <ccrawford@acb.org>
>To: <speakup@braille.uwo.ca>
>Sent: Saturday, August 25, 2001 8:42 AM
>Subject: Re: Hewlet Packard and Linux
>
>
>Well said Rodney and it truly appeals to the programming part of me.  I
>guess my concerns are that there are many who just want a computer that
>offers them flexibility without as you say getting under the hood.  If
>our
>workplaces, educational institutions, and other main stream parts of
>life
>are off with Windows, then resources get targeted there and a really
>good
>thing gets marginalized.  I would be interested to hear from others and
>maybe I am just getting too esoteric?
>
>-- Charlie.
>At 01:32 AM 08/25/2001 -0500, you wrote:
> >Could not agree with you more.  In the real world there are mechanics
>who
> >love the joy of building a fine running engine and getting under the
>hood
> >to fine tune it.  Then there are most people who could care less
what's
> >under the hood as long as it's pretty, it runs and gets them from
point
>a
> >to point b.  Likewise with Linux.  There are those who love to write
> >software without restraints and those who love to configure that
>software
> >to their style and taste.  That's the beauty of Linux and the
thousands
>of
> >text based programs.  Yes every text based program has to be learned
>and
> >configured but that's the fun of it.  A blind person can configure
>Linux
> >however he pleases and yes it's a greasy job but at least we'll know
>how
> >to make it run like we want it and not like somebody else tells us
how
>it
> >should be.
> >I'm learning the ropes of alsaplayer, freeamp, alsamixer, pmidi,
play,
> >sfxload, etc:  I'm also learning about the many powerful features of
>the
> >Sound Blaster Live card.  I'm able to do things I could never do in
> >Winblows or a stereo player.  I can configure these command line
>programs
> >to play whatever songs I want to hear.  I can name my files whatever
I
> >want to allow for better archiving for easier retrieving.  For
example
>I
> >just figured out a few minutes ago that I can save my irish bagpipe
>.mp3
> >files by adding an extra extension to the end of .mp3 like for
example
>a
> >song named  < sailer's lament.mp3.bp >  I added an .bp at the end of
>.mp3
> >so that when I want to play all my bagpipe mp3 files which may be in
my
> >music directory I just simply type freeamp *.mp3.bp and bingo all my
> >bagpipe songs will play until all of the files with the extension bp
at
> >the end of .mp3 are finished playing!  Now that's the joy of Linux!
>Linux
> >allows me to listen to music in a way that's virtually impossible
using
> >Windblows or a fancy expensive stereo equipment.
> >I just thought of another idea while I'm typing and that's the
another
> >beauty about Linux if you can think it you can do it. Suppose you
have
> >your favorite country music among others.  Just add fc to the end of
>the
> >mp3 extension and you can create a script that runs freeamp that
allows
> >you just to type myfavoritecountrymusic and bingo all your favorite
> >country music starts up!  The possiblity are endless and that's why
>it's
> >hard to find a pre-configured Linux box to do everything like you
want
>it
> >because every Linux box is probably configured to that person's
taste.
> >We are a Linux community and we share our configurations and ideas
with
> >others.  It's all about sharing.  We will never need the
commercialized
> >version of Linux to fit our needs.  The blind linux community has all
>the
> >tools we need to share and to explore the endless possiblities.  We
>have
> >the tools to make the best speech interface computer this world has
yet
>to
> >see.  We are just getting started.  We have not yet begun to fight.
And
>in
> >accordance to a famous line "Give me liberty or give me death!"
"Give
>me
> >Linux or give me Windows!" Take your pick. <grin>
> >Rodney
> >The Weaving Beaver
> >rclowdus@kcnet.com
> >"Chop your own firewood and it will warm you twice."
> >"Weave your own cloth and it will reward you twice."
> >
> >On Fri, 24 Aug 2001, Gregory Nowak wrote:
> >
> > > Linux is not a comercial product
> > > in the way that macroslop windows is.
> > > So, I don't think you have anything to worry about.
> > > There will always have to be a text console on a system, and you
can
> > edit init scripts
> > > to provent xwindows from starting up.
> > > Greg
> > >
> > >
> > > On Fri, Aug 24, 2001 at 09:33:46PM -0400, Charles Crawford wrote:
> > > > Liz,
> > > >
> > > >          I think you are wise to get ahead of the game by doing
>the stuff
> > > > Linux can do without the heartaches of configure configure
>configure.  If
> > > > Linux is to make the mainstream or at least a brook, then it has
>to work
> > > > for the average person without too much of the configuring
issues.
>I
> > know,
> > > > its kind of plug and play, but why not have our cake and eat it
>too?  We
> > > > get the ease of setup and the power of Linux.  What's not to
> > like?  Smile.
> > > >
> > > >          My bigger concern is the Xwindows problem of a repeat
of
>what
> > > > Windows did to DOS.
> > > >
> > > > -- Charlie.
> > > > At 04:12 PM 08/24/2001 -0400, you wrote:
> > > >
> > > > >>"no market," but the radical truth is more like "We haven't a
> > > > >>clue of how to get money for it."
> > > > >
> > > > >Forgive a comment from an extreme newbie who doesn't even
*have*
> > Linux yet.
> > > > >
> > > > >I've been looking at the companies who make Linux preinstalled
>systems
> > > > >(there's a long list at linux.org), and they seem to have some
>kind of
> > > > >market niche because some of them use hardware that has been
>tested
> > and is
> > > > >known to be Linux-compatible.  With the Windoze dominance of
the
>entire
> > > > >computing market, it's attractive to me to buy a system whose
>components
> > > > >are known to be compatible with Linux.  It seems better than
>ordering
> > > > >elsewhere and not being sure the different parts of the system
>will work
> > > > >well with Linux.
> > > > >
> > > > >any comments or thoughts?
> > > > >
> > > > >Liz
> > > > >Liz Hare, Ph.D.
> > > > >Research Associate
> > > > >Animal Breeding and Genetics Group
> > > > >B47 Morrison Hall
> > > > >Cornell University
> > > > >Ithaca, NY 14853
> > > > >(607) 255 2380
> > > > >eh51@cornell.edu
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > >_______________________________________________
> > > > >Speakup mailing list
> > > > >Speakup@braille.uwo.ca
> > > > >http://speech.braille.uwo.ca/mailman/listinfo/speakup
> > > >
> > > >
> > > > _______________________________________________
> > > > Speakup mailing list
> > > > Speakup@braille.uwo.ca
> > > > http://speech.braille.uwo.ca/mailman/listinfo/speakup
> > >
> > > _______________________________________________
> > > Speakup mailing list
> > > Speakup@braille.uwo.ca
> > > http://speech.braille.uwo.ca/mailman/listinfo/speakup
> > >
> >
> >
> >_______________________________________________
> >Speakup mailing list
> >Speakup@braille.uwo.ca
> >http://speech.braille.uwo.ca/mailman/listinfo/speakup
>
>
>_______________________________________________
>Speakup mailing list
>Speakup@braille.uwo.ca
>http://speech.braille.uwo.ca/mailman/listinfo/speakup
>
>
>_______________________________________________
>Speakup mailing list
>Speakup@braille.uwo.ca
>http://speech.braille.uwo.ca/mailman/listinfo/speakup


_______________________________________________
Speakup mailing list
Speakup@braille.uwo.ca
http://speech.braille.uwo.ca/mailman/listinfo/speakup

Re: Hewlet Packard and Linux

[Janina Sajka]

Let me stay with the analogy of automobiles, because it's a good one.

It is true that not everyone wants to get involved in knowing about, and
being able to fix their own. They shouldn't have to--and most don't. But,
all drivers need to know a little (exept for the very rich, I suppose).
For example, you need to know when to fill up and how to do it. And, it's
probably wise to learn how to change a flat tire.

Having said all that, is it necessary that everyone drive a Chevy Impala?
Or a Ford Mustang? Or a Volkswagen Beetle? Doesn't this suggestion sound
ridiculous? But it's the Microsoft approach, imho.

We don't all need to use the same software, or even the same OS, to have
accessibility. The standards important to our access are file and protocol
standards: http, html, xml, NISO/DAISY, ASCII, etc. These are information
standards, not presentation standards at root and must stay so. They are
to computing like the standards on lane widths to automobiles. If they are
accessible, then each of us can choose what devices we will use to read
and write them.

 On Sat, 25 Aug 2001,
Charles Crawford wrote:

> Well said Rodney and it truly appeals to the programming part of me.  I
> guess my concerns are that there are many who just want a computer that
> offers them flexibility without as you say getting under the hood.  If our
> workplaces, educational institutions, and other main stream parts of life
> are off with Windows, then resources get targeted there and a really good
> thing gets marginalized.  I would be interested to hear from others and
> maybe I am just getting too esoteric?
>
> -- Charlie.
> At 01:32 AM 08/25/2001 -0500, you wrote:
> >Could not agree with you more.  In the real world there are mechanics who
> >love the joy of building a fine running engine and getting under the hood
> >to fine tune it.  Then there are most people who could care less what's
> >under the hood as long as it's pretty, it runs and gets them from point a
> >to point b.  Likewise with Linux.  There are those who love to write
> >software without restraints and those who love to configure that software
> >to their style and taste.  That's the beauty of Linux and the thousands of
> >text based programs.  Yes every text based program has to be learned and
> >configured but that's the fun of it.  A blind person can configure Linux
> >however he pleases and yes it's a greasy job but at least we'll know how
> >to make it run like we want it and not like somebody else tells us how it
> >should be.
> >I'm learning the ropes of alsaplayer, freeamp, alsamixer, pmidi, play,
> >sfxload, etc:  I'm also learning about the many powerful features of the
> >Sound Blaster Live card.  I'm able to do things I could never do in
> >Winblows or a stereo player.  I can configure these command line programs
> >to play whatever songs I want to hear.  I can name my files whatever I
> >want to allow for better archiving for easier retrieving.  For example I
> >just figured out a few minutes ago that I can save my irish bagpipe .mp3
> >files by adding an extra extension to the end of .mp3 like for example a
> >song named  < sailer's lament.mp3.bp >  I added an .bp at the end of .mp3
> >so that when I want to play all my bagpipe mp3 files which may be in my
> >music directory I just simply type freeamp *.mp3.bp and bingo all my
> >bagpipe songs will play until all of the files with the extension bp at
> >the end of .mp3 are finished playing!  Now that's the joy of Linux!  Linux
> >allows me to listen to music in a way that's virtually impossible using
> >Windblows or a fancy expensive stereo equipment.
> >I just thought of another idea while I'm typing and that's the another
> >beauty about Linux if you can think it you can do it. Suppose you have
> >your favorite country music among others.  Just add fc to the end of the
> >mp3 extension and you can create a script that runs freeamp that allows
> >you just to type myfavoritecountrymusic and bingo all your favorite
> >country music starts up!  The possiblity are endless and that's why it's
> >hard to find a pre-configured Linux box to do everything like you want it
> >because every Linux box is probably configured to that person's taste.
> >We are a Linux community and we share our configurations and ideas with
> >others.  It's all about sharing.  We will never need the commercialized
> >version of Linux to fit our needs.  The blind linux community has all the
> >tools we need to share and to explore the endless possiblities.  We have
> >the tools to make the best speech interface computer this world has yet to
> >see.  We are just getting started.  We have not yet begun to fight. And in
> >accordance to a famous line "Give me liberty or give me death!"  "Give me
> >Linux or give me Windows!" Take your pick. <grin>
> >Rodney
> >The Weaving Beaver
> >rclowdus@kcnet.com
> >"Chop your own firewood and it will warm you twice."
> >"Weave your own cloth and it will reward you twice."
> >
> >On Fri, 24 Aug 2001, Gregory Nowak wrote:
> >
> > > Linux is not a comercial product
> > > in the way that macroslop windows is.
> > > So, I don't think you have anything to worry about.
> > > There will always have to be a text console on a system, and you can
> > edit init scripts
> > > to provent xwindows from starting up.
> > > Greg
> > >
> > >
> > > On Fri, Aug 24, 2001 at 09:33:46PM -0400, Charles Crawford wrote:
> > > > Liz,
> > > >
> > > >          I think you are wise to get ahead of the game by doing the stuff
> > > > Linux can do without the heartaches of configure configure configure.  If
> > > > Linux is to make the mainstream or at least a brook, then it has to work
> > > > for the average person without too much of the configuring issues.  I
> > know,
> > > > its kind of plug and play, but why not have our cake and eat it too?  We
> > > > get the ease of setup and the power of Linux.  What's not to
> > like?  Smile.
> > > >
> > > >          My bigger concern is the Xwindows problem of a repeat of what
> > > > Windows did to DOS.
> > > >
> > > > -- Charlie.
> > > > At 04:12 PM 08/24/2001 -0400, you wrote:
> > > >
> > > > >>"no market," but the radical truth is more like "We haven't a
> > > > >>clue of how to get money for it."
> > > > >
> > > > >Forgive a comment from an extreme newbie who doesn't even *have*
> > Linux yet.
> > > > >
> > > > >I've been looking at the companies who make Linux preinstalled systems
> > > > >(there's a long list at linux.org), and they seem to have some kind of
> > > > >market niche because some of them use hardware that has been tested
> > and is
> > > > >known to be Linux-compatible.  With the Windoze dominance of the entire
> > > > >computing market, it's attractive to me to buy a system whose components
> > > > >are known to be compatible with Linux.  It seems better than ordering
> > > > >elsewhere and not being sure the different parts of the system will work
> > > > >well with Linux.
> > > > >
> > > > >any comments or thoughts?
> > > > >
> > > > >Liz
> > > > >Liz Hare, Ph.D.
> > > > >Research Associate
> > > > >Animal Breeding and Genetics Group
> > > > >B47 Morrison Hall
> > > > >Cornell University
> > > > >Ithaca, NY 14853
> > > > >(607) 255 2380
> > > > >eh51@cornell.edu
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > >_______________________________________________
> > > > >Speakup mailing list
> > > > >Speakup@braille.uwo.ca
> > > > >http://speech.braille.uwo.ca/mailman/listinfo/speakup
> > > >
> > > >
> > > > _______________________________________________
> > > > Speakup mailing list
> > > > Speakup@braille.uwo.ca
> > > > http://speech.braille.uwo.ca/mailman/listinfo/speakup
> > >
> > > _______________________________________________
> > > Speakup mailing list
> > > Speakup@braille.uwo.ca
> > > http://speech.braille.uwo.ca/mailman/listinfo/speakup
> > >
> >
> >
> >_______________________________________________
> >Speakup mailing list
> >Speakup@braille.uwo.ca
> >http://speech.braille.uwo.ca/mailman/listinfo/speakup
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> Speakup mailing list
> Speakup@braille.uwo.ca
> http://speech.braille.uwo.ca/mailman/listinfo/speakup
>

-- 

				Janina Sajka, Director
				Technology Research and Development
				Governmental Relations Group
				American Foundation for the Blind (AFB)

Email: janina@afb.net		Phone: (202) 408-8175

Chair, Accessibility SIG
Open Electronic Book Forum (OEBF)
http://www.openebook.org

Will electronic books surpass print books? Read our white paper,
Surpassing Gutenberg, at http://www.afb.org/ebook.asp

Download a free sample Digital Talking Book edition of Martin Luther
King Jr's inspiring "I Have A Dream" speech at
http://www.afb.org/mlkweb.asp

Learn how to make accessible software at
http://www.afb.org/accessapp.asp

Re: Hewlet Packard and Linux

[Kenny Hitt]

Hi, I couldn't agree with you more.  Linux is finally allowing me to 
truely have my own personal computer.  I still haven't got everything 
set up the way I want, but I only have to take the time to set things up,
instead of spending money and hoping my screen reader will work with the
software.  Windows was costing me about $100 per year per screen reader.

          Kenny

On Sat, Aug 25, 2001 at 01:32:05AM -0500, Rodney Clowdus wrote:
> Could not agree with you more.  In the real world there are mechanics who
> love the joy of building a fine running engine and getting under the hood
> to fine tune it.  Then there are most people who could care less what's
> under the hood as long as it's pretty, it runs and gets them from point a
> to point b.  Likewise with Linux.  There are those who love to write
> software without restraints and those who love to configure that software
> to their style and taste.  That's the beauty of Linux and the thousands of
> text based programs.  Yes every text based program has to be learned and
> configured but that's the fun of it.  A blind person can configure Linux
> however he pleases and yes it's a greasy job but at least we'll know how
> to make it run like we want it and not like somebody else tells us how it
> should be.
> I'm learning the ropes of alsaplayer, freeamp, alsamixer, pmidi, play,
> sfxload, etc:  I'm also learning about the many powerful features of the
> Sound Blaster Live card.  I'm able to do things I could never do in
> Winblows or a stereo player.  I can configure these command line programs
> to play whatever songs I want to hear.  I can name my files whatever I
> want to allow for better archiving for easier retrieving.  For example I
> just figured out a few minutes ago that I can save my irish bagpipe .mp3
> files by adding an extra extension to the end of .mp3 like for example a
> song named  < sailer's lament.mp3.bp >  I added an .bp at the end of .mp3
> so that when I want to play all my bagpipe mp3 files which may be in my
> music directory I just simply type freeamp *.mp3.bp and bingo all my
> bagpipe songs will play until all of the files with the extension bp at
> the end of .mp3 are finished playing!  Now that's the joy of Linux!  Linux
> allows me to listen to music in a way that's virtually impossible using
> Windblows or a fancy expensive stereo equipment.
> I just thought of another idea while I'm typing and that's the another
> beauty about Linux if you can think it you can do it. Suppose you have
> your favorite country music among others.  Just add fc to the end of the
> mp3 extension and you can create a script that runs freeamp that allows
> you just to type myfavoritecountrymusic and bingo all your favorite
> country music starts up!  The possiblity are endless and that's why it's
> hard to find a pre-configured Linux box to do everything like you want it
> because every Linux box is probably configured to that person's taste.
> We are a Linux community and we share our configurations and ideas with
> others.  It's all about sharing.  We will never need the commercialized
> version of Linux to fit our needs.  The blind linux community has all the
> tools we need to share and to explore the endless possiblities.  We have
> the tools to make the best speech interface computer this world has yet to
> see.  We are just getting started.  We have not yet begun to fight. And in
> accordance to a famous line "Give me liberty or give me death!"  "Give me
> Linux or give me Windows!" Take your pick. <grin>
> Rodney
> The Weaving Beaver
> rclowdus@kcnet.com
> "Chop your own firewood and it will warm you twice."
> "Weave your own cloth and it will reward you twice."
> 
> On Fri, 24 Aug 2001, Gregory Nowak wrote:
> 
> > Linux is not a comercial product
> > in the way that macroslop windows is.
> > So, I don't think you have anything to worry about.
> > There will always have to be a text console on a system, and you can edit init scripts
> > to provent xwindows from starting up.
> > Greg
> >
> >
> > On Fri, Aug 24, 2001 at 09:33:46PM -0400, Charles Crawford wrote:
> > > Liz,
> > >
> > >          I think you are wise to get ahead of the game by doing the stuff
> > > Linux can do without the heartaches of configure configure configure.  If
> > > Linux is to make the mainstream or at least a brook, then it has to work
> > > for the average person without too much of the configuring issues.  I know,
> > > its kind of plug and play, but why not have our cake and eat it too?  We
> > > get the ease of setup and the power of Linux.  What's not to like?  Smile.
> > >
> > >          My bigger concern is the Xwindows problem of a repeat of what
> > > Windows did to DOS.
> > >
> > > -- Charlie.
> > > At 04:12 PM 08/24/2001 -0400, you wrote:
> > >
> > > >>"no market," but the radical truth is more like "We haven't a
> > > >>clue of how to get money for it."
> > > >
> > > >Forgive a comment from an extreme newbie who doesn't even *have* Linux yet.
> > > >
> > > >I've been looking at the companies who make Linux preinstalled systems
> > > >(there's a long list at linux.org), and they seem to have some kind of
> > > >market niche because some of them use hardware that has been tested and is
> > > >known to be Linux-compatible.  With the Windoze dominance of the entire
> > > >computing market, it's attractive to me to buy a system whose components
> > > >are known to be compatible with Linux.  It seems better than ordering
> > > >elsewhere and not being sure the different parts of the system will work
> > > >well with Linux.
> > > >
> > > >any comments or thoughts?
> > > >
> > > >Liz
> > > >Liz Hare, Ph.D.
> > > >Research Associate
> > > >Animal Breeding and Genetics Group
> > > >B47 Morrison Hall
> > > >Cornell University
> > > >Ithaca, NY 14853
> > > >(607) 255 2380
> > > >eh51@cornell.edu
> > > >
> > > >
> > > >_______________________________________________
> > > >Speakup mailing list
> > > >Speakup@braille.uwo.ca
> > > >http://speech.braille.uwo.ca/mailman/listinfo/speakup
> > >
> > >
> > > _______________________________________________
> > > Speakup mailing list
> > > Speakup@braille.uwo.ca
> > > http://speech.braille.uwo.ca/mailman/listinfo/speakup
> >
> > _______________________________________________
> > Speakup mailing list
> > Speakup@braille.uwo.ca
> > http://speech.braille.uwo.ca/mailman/listinfo/speakup
> >
> 
> 
> _______________________________________________
> Speakup mailing list
> Speakup@braille.uwo.ca
> http://speech.braille.uwo.ca/mailman/listinfo/speakup

Re: Hewlet Packard and Linux

[Peter M. Konka]

Hi,

         One thing that i learned this past weekend is that ther Linux can 
use something called Emac Speak with VM voice or something close to 
that.  What I like about this is that Emac Speak uses Elequence and i can 
use my sound card instead of plugging in some other external device.

         I'm not actually sure how this works as of yet, but i do know some 
what about it, and from what I hear I think that i will enjoy linux and the 
emac speak.

         Now, I am sighted, but my eyes get very tired after staring at the 
computer screen all day, so i do know that speech will help me out a lot.

--- peter.

At 09:03 AM 8/25/01 -0500, you wrote:
>Hi, I couldn't agree with you more.  Linux is finally allowing me to
>truely have my own personal computer.  I still haven't got everything
>set up the way I want, but I only have to take the time to set things up,
>instead of spending money and hoping my screen reader will work with the
>software.  Windows was costing me about $100 per year per screen reader.
>
>           Kenny
>
>On Sat, Aug 25, 2001 at 01:32:05AM -0500, Rodney Clowdus wrote:
> > Could not agree with you more.  In the real world there are mechanics who
> > love the joy of building a fine running engine and getting under the hood
> > to fine tune it.  Then there are most people who could care less what's
> > under the hood as long as it's pretty, it runs and gets them from point a
> > to point b.  Likewise with Linux.  There are those who love to write
> > software without restraints and those who love to configure that software
> > to their style and taste.  That's the beauty of Linux and the thousands of
> > text based programs.  Yes every text based program has to be learned and
> > configured but that's the fun of it.  A blind person can configure Linux
> > however he pleases and yes it's a greasy job but at least we'll know how
> > to make it run like we want it and not like somebody else tells us how it
> > should be.
> > I'm learning the ropes of alsaplayer, freeamp, alsamixer, pmidi, play,
> > sfxload, etc:  I'm also learning about the many powerful features of the
> > Sound Blaster Live card.  I'm able to do things I could never do in
> > Winblows or a stereo player.  I can configure these command line programs
> > to play whatever songs I want to hear.  I can name my files whatever I
> > want to allow for better archiving for easier retrieving.  For example I
> > just figured out a few minutes ago that I can save my irish bagpipe .mp3
> > files by adding an extra extension to the end of .mp3 like for example a
> > song named  < sailer's lament.mp3.bp >  I added an .bp at the end of .mp3
> > so that when I want to play all my bagpipe mp3 files which may be in my
> > music directory I just simply type freeamp *.mp3.bp and bingo all my
> > bagpipe songs will play until all of the files with the extension bp at
> > the end of .mp3 are finished playing!  Now that's the joy of Linux!  Linux
> > allows me to listen to music in a way that's virtually impossible using
> > Windblows or a fancy expensive stereo equipment.
> > I just thought of another idea while I'm typing and that's the another
> > beauty about Linux if you can think it you can do it. Suppose you have
> > your favorite country music among others.  Just add fc to the end of the
> > mp3 extension and you can create a script that runs freeamp that allows
> > you just to type myfavoritecountrymusic and bingo all your favorite
> > country music starts up!  The possiblity are endless and that's why it's
> > hard to find a pre-configured Linux box to do everything like you want it
> > because every Linux box is probably configured to that person's taste.
> > We are a Linux community and we share our configurations and ideas with
> > others.  It's all about sharing.  We will never need the commercialized
> > version of Linux to fit our needs.  The blind linux community has all the
> > tools we need to share and to explore the endless possiblities.  We have
> > the tools to make the best speech interface computer this world has yet to
> > see.  We are just getting started.  We have not yet begun to fight. And in
> > accordance to a famous line "Give me liberty or give me death!"  "Give me
> > Linux or give me Windows!" Take your pick. <grin>
> > Rodney
> > The Weaving Beaver
> > rclowdus@kcnet.com
> > "Chop your own firewood and it will warm you twice."
> > "Weave your own cloth and it will reward you twice."
> >
> > On Fri, 24 Aug 2001, Gregory Nowak wrote:
> >
> > > Linux is not a comercial product
> > > in the way that macroslop windows is.
> > > So, I don't think you have anything to worry about.
> > > There will always have to be a text console on a system, and you can 
> edit init scripts
> > > to provent xwindows from starting up.
> > > Greg
> > >
> > >
> > > On Fri, Aug 24, 2001 at 09:33:46PM -0400, Charles Crawford wrote:
> > > > Liz,
> > > >
> > > >          I think you are wise to get ahead of the game by doing the 
> stuff
> > > > Linux can do without the heartaches of configure configure 
> configure.  If
> > > > Linux is to make the mainstream or at least a brook, then it has to 
> work
> > > > for the average person without too much of the configuring 
> issues.  I know,
> > > > its kind of plug and play, but why not have our cake and eat it 
> too?  We
> > > > get the ease of setup and the power of Linux.  What's not to 
> like?  Smile.
> > > >
> > > >          My bigger concern is the Xwindows problem of a repeat of what
> > > > Windows did to DOS.
> > > >
> > > > -- Charlie.
> > > > At 04:12 PM 08/24/2001 -0400, you wrote:
> > > >
> > > > >>"no market," but the radical truth is more like "We haven't a
> > > > >>clue of how to get money for it."
> > > > >
> > > > >Forgive a comment from an extreme newbie who doesn't even *have* 
> Linux yet.
> > > > >
> > > > >I've been looking at the companies who make Linux preinstalled systems
> > > > >(there's a long list at linux.org), and they seem to have some kind of
> > > > >market niche because some of them use hardware that has been 
> tested and is
> > > > >known to be Linux-compatible.  With the Windoze dominance of the 
> entire
> > > > >computing market, it's attractive to me to buy a system whose 
> components
> > > > >are known to be compatible with Linux.  It seems better than ordering
> > > > >elsewhere and not being sure the different parts of the system 
> will work
> > > > >well with Linux.
> > > > >
> > > > >any comments or thoughts?
> > > > >
> > > > >Liz
> > > > >Liz Hare, Ph.D.
> > > > >Research Associate
> > > > >Animal Breeding and Genetics Group
> > > > >B47 Morrison Hall
> > > > >Cornell University
> > > > >Ithaca, NY 14853
> > > > >(607) 255 2380
> > > > >eh51@cornell.edu
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > >_______________________________________________
> > > > >Speakup mailing list
> > > > >Speakup@braille.uwo.ca
> > > > >http://speech.braille.uwo.ca/mailman/listinfo/speakup
> > > >
> > > >
> > > > _______________________________________________
> > > > Speakup mailing list
> > > > Speakup@braille.uwo.ca
> > > > http://speech.braille.uwo.ca/mailman/listinfo/speakup
> > >
> > > _______________________________________________
> > > Speakup mailing list
> > > Speakup@braille.uwo.ca
> > > http://speech.braille.uwo.ca/mailman/listinfo/speakup
> > >
> >
> >
> > _______________________________________________
> > Speakup mailing list
> > Speakup@braille.uwo.ca
> > http://speech.braille.uwo.ca/mailman/listinfo/speakup
>
>_______________________________________________
>Speakup mailing list
>Speakup@braille.uwo.ca
>http://speech.braille.uwo.ca/mailman/listinfo/speakup

Re: Hewlet Packard and Linux

[Gregory Nowak]

I agree with you all the way.
The beauty of Linux is that it is
totally flexible to meet individual needs,
and since it is open source,
we can engineer it exactly to please us
(unlike windows).
Also, the way we share tips and tricks and help each other out
brings back the days of kindergarten, does it not (grin)?
Greg


On Sat, Aug 25, 2001 at 01:32:05AM -0500, Rodney Clowdus wrote:
> Could not agree with you more.  In the real world there are mechanics who
> love the joy of building a fine running engine and getting under the hood
> to fine tune it.  Then there are most people who could care less what's
> under the hood as long as it's pretty, it runs and gets them from point a
> to point b.  Likewise with Linux.  There are those who love to write
> software without restraints and those who love to configure that software
> to their style and taste.  That's the beauty of Linux and the thousands of
> text based programs.  Yes every text based program has to be learned and
> configured but that's the fun of it.  A blind person can configure Linux
> however he pleases and yes it's a greasy job but at least we'll know how
> to make it run like we want it and not like somebody else tells us how it
> should be.
> I'm learning the ropes of alsaplayer, freeamp, alsamixer, pmidi, play,
> sfxload, etc:  I'm also learning about the many powerful features of the
> Sound Blaster Live card.  I'm able to do things I could never do in
> Winblows or a stereo player.  I can configure these command line programs
> to play whatever songs I want to hear.  I can name my files whatever I
> want to allow for better archiving for easier retrieving.  For example I
> just figured out a few minutes ago that I can save my irish bagpipe .mp3
> files by adding an extra extension to the end of .mp3 like for example a
> song named  < sailer's lament.mp3.bp >  I added an .bp at the end of .mp3
> so that when I want to play all my bagpipe mp3 files which may be in my
> music directory I just simply type freeamp *.mp3.bp and bingo all my
> bagpipe songs will play until all of the files with the extension bp at
> the end of .mp3 are finished playing!  Now that's the joy of Linux!  Linux
> allows me to listen to music in a way that's virtually impossible using
> Windblows or a fancy expensive stereo equipment.
> I just thought of another idea while I'm typing and that's the another
> beauty about Linux if you can think it you can do it. Suppose you have
> your favorite country music among others.  Just add fc to the end of the
> mp3 extension and you can create a script that runs freeamp that allows
> you just to type myfavoritecountrymusic and bingo all your favorite
> country music starts up!  The possiblity are endless and that's why it's
> hard to find a pre-configured Linux box to do everything like you want it
> because every Linux box is probably configured to that person's taste.
> We are a Linux community and we share our configurations and ideas with
> others.  It's all about sharing.  We will never need the commercialized
> version of Linux to fit our needs.  The blind linux community has all the
> tools we need to share and to explore the endless possiblities.  We have
> the tools to make the best speech interface computer this world has yet to
> see.  We are just getting started.  We have not yet begun to fight. And in
> accordance to a famous line "Give me liberty or give me death!"  "Give me
> Linux or give me Windows!" Take your pick. <grin>
> Rodney
> The Weaving Beaver
> rclowdus@kcnet.com
> "Chop your own firewood and it will warm you twice."
> "Weave your own cloth and it will reward you twice."
> 
> On Fri, 24 Aug 2001, Gregory Nowak wrote:
> 
> > Linux is not a comercial product
> > in the way that macroslop windows is.
> > So, I don't think you have anything to worry about.
> > There will always have to be a text console on a system, and you can edit init scripts
> > to provent xwindows from starting up.
> > Greg
> >
> >
> > On Fri, Aug 24, 2001 at 09:33:46PM -0400, Charles Crawford wrote:
> > > Liz,
> > >
> > >          I think you are wise to get ahead of the game by doing the stuff
> > > Linux can do without the heartaches of configure configure configure.  If
> > > Linux is to make the mainstream or at least a brook, then it has to work
> > > for the average person without too much of the configuring issues.  I know,
> > > its kind of plug and play, but why not have our cake and eat it too?  We
> > > get the ease of setup and the power of Linux.  What's not to like?  Smile.
> > >
> > >          My bigger concern is the Xwindows problem of a repeat of what
> > > Windows did to DOS.
> > >
> > > -- Charlie.
> > > At 04:12 PM 08/24/2001 -0400, you wrote:
> > >
> > > >>"no market," but the radical truth is more like "We haven't a
> > > >>clue of how to get money for it."
> > > >
> > > >Forgive a comment from an extreme newbie who doesn't even *have* Linux yet.
> > > >
> > > >I've been looking at the companies who make Linux preinstalled systems
> > > >(there's a long list at linux.org), and they seem to have some kind of
> > > >market niche because some of them use hardware that has been tested and is
> > > >known to be Linux-compatible.  With the Windoze dominance of the entire
> > > >computing market, it's attractive to me to buy a system whose components
> > > >are known to be compatible with Linux.  It seems better than ordering
> > > >elsewhere and not being sure the different parts of the system will work
> > > >well with Linux.
> > > >
> > > >any comments or thoughts?
> > > >
> > > >Liz
> > > >Liz Hare, Ph.D.
> > > >Research Associate
> > > >Animal Breeding and Genetics Group
> > > >B47 Morrison Hall
> > > >Cornell University
> > > >Ithaca, NY 14853
> > > >(607) 255 2380
> > > >eh51@cornell.edu
> > > >
> > > >
> > > >_______________________________________________
> > > >Speakup mailing list
> > > >Speakup@braille.uwo.ca
> > > >http://speech.braille.uwo.ca/mailman/listinfo/speakup
> > >
> > >
> > > _______________________________________________
> > > Speakup mailing list
> > > Speakup@braille.uwo.ca
> > > http://speech.braille.uwo.ca/mailman/listinfo/speakup
> >
> > _______________________________________________
> > Speakup mailing list
> > Speakup@braille.uwo.ca
> > http://speech.braille.uwo.ca/mailman/listinfo/speakup
> >
> 
> 
> _______________________________________________
> Speakup mailing list
> Speakup@braille.uwo.ca
> http://speech.braille.uwo.ca/mailman/listinfo/speakup

Re: Hewlet Packard and Linux

[Frank Carmickle]

Ladies and Gentlemen of the speakup community

On Sat, 25 Aug 2001, Gregory
Nowak wrote:
> and since it is open source,
> we can engineer it exactly to please us
> (unlike windows).

I would like to make it very clear that there are many open source
offerings in the world.  However just because you have access to the
source doesn't mean you can do with it as you like.  The GNU GPL gives
us ownership of the software we use.  It allows us to change it and if we
do change it we are obligated to contribute those changes back in to the
community.  The Microsoft shared source program is one example of shared
source that isn't gonna get you anywhere.  The reason why we have what we
have today is because the software we use is "free software."  This is
very different from open source.  A few of the programs that are discussed
on this list are open source and yet are not free software.  The
xwindowing system is one of these such things.  As is pine.  What this
means is that you can have the source code but you may or may not
distribute your changes.  Also it is not required of you to distribute
source for these programs if you desire not to.  This is how many
commercial UNIX systems have sold modified x packages and not included the
source for there modifications.  This imho is a problem.  People have
worked very hard to make free software what it is today.  If you want to
spit in the face of those people that's fine.  But let me warn you.  This
freedom that you enjoy may not be around for long if you don't contribute
back to the free software community.  You may find that no longer will you
have the latest and greatest software because others will also start to
distribute software which is not free.  

So let us be very clear when we talk about open source vs. free
software.  They are two different things.  Open source software does
not,may I repeat , does not insure that the next guy won't take your
source run off with it make changes and not contribute the source back to
the community.  This imho is a big problem.

I encourage all of you to listen to Richard Stallman's arguments about why
software should be free.  Have a look at 
ftp://linux-speakup.org/pub/linux/goodies/audio-files/ where there are two
ogg files called rms-nyu1.ogg and rms-nyu2.ogg.  I am working on making
smaller ones available.

-- 
     Frank Carmickle
phone:     412 761-9568
email:     frankiec@dryrose.com

Re: Hewlet Packard and Linux

[Charles Crawford]

Gregory and all,

	Thanks for the note about the ability to keep the text of Linux up despite 
the growing Xwindows.  I really do hope that continues since I am a bit gun 
shy after seeing Microsoft slowly killing DOS.  As I understand it, you 
can't boot in DOS anymore and I am not even sure the apps will work in the 
new Xp.  More tragic in the DOS world is the cintinuing loss of speech 
products for the environment where older speech hardware can't even be 
installed.  So we truly have to not only see Linux for what it is now, but 
we must also make sure it remains a place for blind folks to still do our 
thing with an operating system as powerful as it is.

-- charlie Crawford.


-- charlie Crawford.

Re: Hewlet Packard and Linux

[Charles Hallenbeck]

Charlie and all -

Your remarks about DOS are interesting - I was a DOS fan too and actually
never moved to Windows, except to support my Arkenstone Open Book Unbound
software. My machine is presently a dual boot machine so I can se Linux to
get work done or else at boot time select DOS (I use the Caldera
OpenDOS) to use my scanner software and one or two other legacy apps.

If you remember when DOS was introduced in the early 80s, version 1.X was
a lot like CP/M; as it was revised to 2.X and then 3.X, it gradually
became a lot more like Unix than CP/M, with a hierarchical file system,
batch files, and then later versions even had online help.

Now that should tell you something: namely, that Unix was a mature
standard for text consoles even in the early 80s when DOS was being forged
in Redmond. Linux of course is an Open Source and contemporary
implementation of Unix, and is therefore a decade ahead of the game
compared to DOS. 

Linux is also a fundamentally dual personality system, with its GUI being
a robust add-on to the underlying text based console system.

Linux was created as Open Source on the internet and is maintained and
developed there. It is a fundamental mistake to think of it in the same
market terms as the other major OS. Of course there is no market for Linux
accessibility solutions. But there are users and there is need, and that
need is being met by and large without benefit of market concepts.

How do people make a living in the Open Source world? By selling services,
not products. Products in the Open Source world are organic things. They
take root, they grow, they live or die on their merits, and they both give
to and take from their users. There would be no Speakup if it were
conceived on a marketing model of accessibility solutions,  trust me on
that one.

So - don't worry about Linux, it is in there for the long haul. 

I was recently tempted to spring for a preinstalled Linux system when I
last upgraded, but opted for the "rolling my own" solution. I am convinced
that if I had plunked down for a package deal I would have ended up
overhauling it anyway.

Will Linux ever be a mass market product suitable for the people who check
their email once a week and want their machine to do what they want, and
not what they say? Probably not. There may always be a niche for a
Windows-type OS with its closely guarded secrets and predatory practices,
with all the insides protected from meddling users and all the decision
details already made for them.

Best regards - and welcome to the list!

Chuck


Visit me at http://www.mhonline.net/~chuckh 
The Moon is Waxing Crescent (46% of Full)

Re: Hewlet Packard and Linux

[Shaun Oliver]

I've been following this thread for a while. and haven't decided to say
something until now.
I'm of the oppinion that linux as an operating system accessable to the
blind, is streets ahead of it's comercial counterparts.
I say this because as a user of both operating systems, I can see the place
for both of them. I find that windows in a normal office environment is a
very powerful tool indeed. However, if I could have the power of linux and
the ease of use of windows all rolled into one, I'd be a very happy camper.
I mean I'd like the nice frilly bits of microsoft word and excell and all
that but right at the moment, I haven't seen gpl console versions of either.
Linux is a great workhorse especially if you want to run it as a server box
or as a firewall, but I want the durrability of linux with the ease of use
of windows but I guess for now I'll just have to learn how to use linux to
it's full potential.
Don't get me wrong here, I'm not complaining, just stating how I feel on the
whole issue.
Shaun..



------------------------------------
Make Unlimited phone calls from your PC to ANY phone in the World!
http://www.eboom.com/free/
----- Original Message -----
From: "Charles Hallenbeck" <chuckh@mhonline.net>
To: <speakup@braille.uwo.ca>
Sent: Saturday, August 25, 2001 10:59 PM
Subject: Re: Hewlet Packard and Linux


> Charlie and all -
>
> Your remarks about DOS are interesting - I was a DOS fan too and actually
> never moved to Windows, except to support my Arkenstone Open Book Unbound
> software. My machine is presently a dual boot machine so I can se Linux to
> get work done or else at boot time select DOS (I use the Caldera
> OpenDOS) to use my scanner software and one or two other legacy apps.
>
> If you remember when DOS was introduced in the early 80s, version 1.X was
> a lot like CP/M; as it was revised to 2.X and then 3.X, it gradually
> became a lot more like Unix than CP/M, with a hierarchical file system,
> batch files, and then later versions even had online help.
>
> Now that should tell you something: namely, that Unix was a mature
> standard for text consoles even in the early 80s when DOS was being forged
> in Redmond. Linux of course is an Open Source and contemporary
> implementation of Unix, and is therefore a decade ahead of the game
> compared to DOS.
>
> Linux is also a fundamentally dual personality system, with its GUI being
> a robust add-on to the underlying text based console system.
>
> Linux was created as Open Source on the internet and is maintained and
> developed there. It is a fundamental mistake to think of it in the same
> market terms as the other major OS. Of course there is no market for Linux
> accessibility solutions. But there are users and there is need, and that
> need is being met by and large without benefit of market concepts.
>
> How do people make a living in the Open Source world? By selling services,
> not products. Products in the Open Source world are organic things. They
> take root, they grow, they live or die on their merits, and they both give
> to and take from their users. There would be no Speakup if it were
> conceived on a marketing model of accessibility solutions,  trust me on
> that one.
>
> So - don't worry about Linux, it is in there for the long haul.
>
> I was recently tempted to spring for a preinstalled Linux system when I
> last upgraded, but opted for the "rolling my own" solution. I am convinced
> that if I had plunked down for a package deal I would have ended up
> overhauling it anyway.
>
> Will Linux ever be a mass market product suitable for the people who check
> their email once a week and want their machine to do what they want, and
> not what they say? Probably not. There may always be a niche for a
> Windows-type OS with its closely guarded secrets and predatory practices,
> with all the insides protected from meddling users and all the decision
> details already made for them.
>
> Best regards - and welcome to the list!
>
> Chuck
>
>
> Visit me at http://www.mhonline.net/~chuckh
> The Moon is Waxing Crescent (46% of Full)
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> Speakup mailing list
> Speakup@braille.uwo.ca
> http://speech.braille.uwo.ca/mailman/listinfo/speakup
>
>

Re: Hewlet Packard and Linux

[Gregory Nowak]

I don't think we'll see what
you describe until there is an 
x speech server.
This would of course give us the ease of use of windows
(no more commands, just menus), and it would give us
access to staroffice and other things.
When that happens, Linux will be on an equal footing with windows
(if not farther) in terms of speech access.
Greg


On Sat, Aug 25, 2001 at 11:28:36PM +1000, Shaun Oliver wrote:
> I've been following this thread for a while. and haven't decided to say
> something until now.
> I'm of the oppinion that linux as an operating system accessable to the
> blind, is streets ahead of it's comercial counterparts.
> I say this because as a user of both operating systems, I can see the place
> for both of them. I find that windows in a normal office environment is a
> very powerful tool indeed. However, if I could have the power of linux and
> the ease of use of windows all rolled into one, I'd be a very happy camper.
> I mean I'd like the nice frilly bits of microsoft word and excell and all
> that but right at the moment, I haven't seen gpl console versions of either.
> Linux is a great workhorse especially if you want to run it as a server box
> or as a firewall, but I want the durrability of linux with the ease of use
> of windows but I guess for now I'll just have to learn how to use linux to
> it's full potential.
> Don't get me wrong here, I'm not complaining, just stating how I feel on the
> whole issue.
> Shaun..
> 
> 
> 
> ------------------------------------
> Make Unlimited phone calls from your PC to ANY phone in the World!
> http://www.eboom.com/free/
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: "Charles Hallenbeck" <chuckh@mhonline.net>
> To: <speakup@braille.uwo.ca>
> Sent: Saturday, August 25, 2001 10:59 PM
> Subject: Re: Hewlet Packard and Linux
> 
> 
> > Charlie and all -
> >
> > Your remarks about DOS are interesting - I was a DOS fan too and actually
> > never moved to Windows, except to support my Arkenstone Open Book Unbound
> > software. My machine is presently a dual boot machine so I can se Linux to
> > get work done or else at boot time select DOS (I use the Caldera
> > OpenDOS) to use my scanner software and one or two other legacy apps.
> >
> > If you remember when DOS was introduced in the early 80s, version 1.X was
> > a lot like CP/M; as it was revised to 2.X and then 3.X, it gradually
> > became a lot more like Unix than CP/M, with a hierarchical file system,
> > batch files, and then later versions even had online help.
> >
> > Now that should tell you something: namely, that Unix was a mature
> > standard for text consoles even in the early 80s when DOS was being forged
> > in Redmond. Linux of course is an Open Source and contemporary
> > implementation of Unix, and is therefore a decade ahead of the game
> > compared to DOS.
> >
> > Linux is also a fundamentally dual personality system, with its GUI being
> > a robust add-on to the underlying text based console system.
> >
> > Linux was created as Open Source on the internet and is maintained and
> > developed there. It is a fundamental mistake to think of it in the same
> > market terms as the other major OS. Of course there is no market for Linux
> > accessibility solutions. But there are users and there is need, and that
> > need is being met by and large without benefit of market concepts.
> >
> > How do people make a living in the Open Source world? By selling services,
> > not products. Products in the Open Source world are organic things. They
> > take root, they grow, they live or die on their merits, and they both give
> > to and take from their users. There would be no Speakup if it were
> > conceived on a marketing model of accessibility solutions,  trust me on
> > that one.
> >
> > So - don't worry about Linux, it is in there for the long haul.
> >
> > I was recently tempted to spring for a preinstalled Linux system when I
> > last upgraded, but opted for the "rolling my own" solution. I am convinced
> > that if I had plunked down for a package deal I would have ended up
> > overhauling it anyway.
> >
> > Will Linux ever be a mass market product suitable for the people who check
> > their email once a week and want their machine to do what they want, and
> > not what they say? Probably not. There may always be a niche for a
> > Windows-type OS with its closely guarded secrets and predatory practices,
> > with all the insides protected from meddling users and all the decision
> > details already made for them.
> >
> > Best regards - and welcome to the list!
> >
> > Chuck
> >
> >
> > Visit me at http://www.mhonline.net/~chuckh
> > The Moon is Waxing Crescent (46% of Full)
> >
> >
> > _______________________________________________
> > Speakup mailing list
> > Speakup@braille.uwo.ca
> > http://speech.braille.uwo.ca/mailman/listinfo/speakup
> >
> >
> 
> 
> _______________________________________________
> Speakup mailing list
> Speakup@braille.uwo.ca
> http://speech.braille.uwo.ca/mailman/listinfo/speakup

Re: Hewlet Packard and Linux

[Shaun Oliver]

Hi there is an x screen review package but I've had god's own job getting it
to work. it's called ultrasonix but as I said, I had loads of trouble trying
to get it to work. I might give it a go again one day after I've finished my
studies but right at the moment, I've got alot on my plate.
Shaun..


------------------------------------
Make Unlimited phone calls from your PC to ANY phone in the World!
http://www.eboom.com/free/
----- Original Message -----
From: "Gregory Nowak" <romualt@megsinet.net>
To: <speakup@braille.uwo.ca>
Sent: Sunday, August 26, 2001 3:49 AM
Subject: Re: Hewlet Packard and Linux


> I don't think we'll see what
> you describe until there is an
> x speech server.
> This would of course give us the ease of use of windows
> (no more commands, just menus), and it would give us
> access to staroffice and other things.
> When that happens, Linux will be on an equal footing with windows
> (if not farther) in terms of speech access.
> Greg
>
>
> On Sat, Aug 25, 2001 at 11:28:36PM +1000, Shaun Oliver wrote:
> > I've been following this thread for a while. and haven't decided to say
> > something until now.
> > I'm of the oppinion that linux as an operating system accessable to the
> > blind, is streets ahead of it's comercial counterparts.
> > I say this because as a user of both operating systems, I can see the
place
> > for both of them. I find that windows in a normal office environment is
a
> > very powerful tool indeed. However, if I could have the power of linux
and
> > the ease of use of windows all rolled into one, I'd be a very happy
camper.
> > I mean I'd like the nice frilly bits of microsoft word and excell and
all
> > that but right at the moment, I haven't seen gpl console versions of
either.
> > Linux is a great workhorse especially if you want to run it as a server
box
> > or as a firewall, but I want the durrability of linux with the ease of
use
> > of windows but I guess for now I'll just have to learn how to use linux
to
> > it's full potential.
> > Don't get me wrong here, I'm not complaining, just stating how I feel on
the
> > whole issue.
> > Shaun..
> >
> >
> >
> > ------------------------------------
> > Make Unlimited phone calls from your PC to ANY phone in the World!
> > http://www.eboom.com/free/
> > ----- Original Message -----
> > From: "Charles Hallenbeck" <chuckh@mhonline.net>
> > To: <speakup@braille.uwo.ca>
> > Sent: Saturday, August 25, 2001 10:59 PM
> > Subject: Re: Hewlet Packard and Linux
> >
> >
> > > Charlie and all -
> > >
> > > Your remarks about DOS are interesting - I was a DOS fan too and
actually
> > > never moved to Windows, except to support my Arkenstone Open Book
Unbound
> > > software. My machine is presently a dual boot machine so I can se
Linux to
> > > get work done or else at boot time select DOS (I use the Caldera
> > > OpenDOS) to use my scanner software and one or two other legacy apps.
> > >
> > > If you remember when DOS was introduced in the early 80s, version 1.X
was
> > > a lot like CP/M; as it was revised to 2.X and then 3.X, it gradually
> > > became a lot more like Unix than CP/M, with a hierarchical file
system,
> > > batch files, and then later versions even had online help.
> > >
> > > Now that should tell you something: namely, that Unix was a mature
> > > standard for text consoles even in the early 80s when DOS was being
forged
> > > in Redmond. Linux of course is an Open Source and contemporary
> > > implementation of Unix, and is therefore a decade ahead of the game
> > > compared to DOS.
> > >
> > > Linux is also a fundamentally dual personality system, with its GUI
being
> > > a robust add-on to the underlying text based console system.
> > >
> > > Linux was created as Open Source on the internet and is maintained and
> > > developed there. It is a fundamental mistake to think of it in the
same
> > > market terms as the other major OS. Of course there is no market for
Linux
> > > accessibility solutions. But there are users and there is need, and
that
> > > need is being met by and large without benefit of market concepts.
> > >
> > > How do people make a living in the Open Source world? By selling
services,
> > > not products. Products in the Open Source world are organic things.
They
> > > take root, they grow, they live or die on their merits, and they both
give
> > > to and take from their users. There would be no Speakup if it were
> > > conceived on a marketing model of accessibility solutions,  trust me
on
> > > that one.
> > >
> > > So - don't worry about Linux, it is in there for the long haul.
> > >
> > > I was recently tempted to spring for a preinstalled Linux system when
I
> > > last upgraded, but opted for the "rolling my own" solution. I am
convinced
> > > that if I had plunked down for a package deal I would have ended up
> > > overhauling it anyway.
> > >
> > > Will Linux ever be a mass market product suitable for the people who
check
> > > their email once a week and want their machine to do what they want,
and
> > > not what they say? Probably not. There may always be a niche for a
> > > Windows-type OS with its closely guarded secrets and predatory
practices,
> > > with all the insides protected from meddling users and all the
decision
> > > details already made for them.
> > >
> > > Best regards - and welcome to the list!
> > >
> > > Chuck
> > >
> > >
> > > Visit me at http://www.mhonline.net/~chuckh
> > > The Moon is Waxing Crescent (46% of Full)
> > >
> > >
> > > _______________________________________________
> > > Speakup mailing list
> > > Speakup@braille.uwo.ca
> > > http://speech.braille.uwo.ca/mailman/listinfo/speakup
> > >
> > >
> >
> >
> > _______________________________________________
> > Speakup mailing list
> > Speakup@braille.uwo.ca
> > http://speech.braille.uwo.ca/mailman/listinfo/speakup
>
> _______________________________________________
> Speakup mailing list
> Speakup@braille.uwo.ca
> http://speech.braille.uwo.ca/mailman/listinfo/speakup
>
>

Re: Hewlet Packard and Linux

[Janina Sajka]

On Sat, 25 Aug 2001, Gregory Nowak wrote:

> I don't think we'll see what
> you describe until there is an
> x speech server.

Well, if you're in San Francisco over the next few days, stop by the Sun
Booth at LinuxWorld and see a prototype for GNOME. And/Or, join the
Tuesday evening BOFA session at the downtown SF Marriott. Or just take a
look at what's up at:

	http://www.gnome.org/projects/gap/

My expectation is that the GNOME access elements will be the first out of
the gate for actual users next year. But, it's increasingly looking like
GNOME will not be the only choice.

That's good of course. Choice is good.

				Janina



> This would of course give us the ease of use of windows
> (no more commands, just menus), and it would give us
> access to staroffice and other things.
> When that happens, Linux will be on an equal footing with windows
> (if not farther) in terms of speech access.
> Greg
>
>
> On Sat, Aug 25, 2001 at 11:28:36PM +1000, Shaun Oliver wrote:
> > I've been following this thread for a while. and haven't decided to say
> > something until now.
> > I'm of the oppinion that linux as an operating system accessable to the
> > blind, is streets ahead of it's comercial counterparts.
> > I say this because as a user of both operating systems, I can see the place
> > for both of them. I find that windows in a normal office environment is a
> > very powerful tool indeed. However, if I could have the power of linux and
> > the ease of use of windows all rolled into one, I'd be a very happy camper.
> > I mean I'd like the nice frilly bits of microsoft word and excell and all
> > that but right at the moment, I haven't seen gpl console versions of either.
> > Linux is a great workhorse especially if you want to run it as a server box
> > or as a firewall, but I want the durrability of linux with the ease of use
> > of windows but I guess for now I'll just have to learn how to use linux to
> > it's full potential.
> > Don't get me wrong here, I'm not complaining, just stating how I feel on the
> > whole issue.
> > Shaun..
> >
> >
> >
> > ------------------------------------
> > Make Unlimited phone calls from your PC to ANY phone in the World!
> > http://www.eboom.com/free/
> > ----- Original Message -----
> > From: "Charles Hallenbeck" <chuckh@mhonline.net>
> > To: <speakup@braille.uwo.ca>
> > Sent: Saturday, August 25, 2001 10:59 PM
> > Subject: Re: Hewlet Packard and Linux
> >
> >
> > > Charlie and all -
> > >
> > > Your remarks about DOS are interesting - I was a DOS fan too and actually
> > > never moved to Windows, except to support my Arkenstone Open Book Unbound
> > > software. My machine is presently a dual boot machine so I can se Linux to
> > > get work done or else at boot time select DOS (I use the Caldera
> > > OpenDOS) to use my scanner software and one or two other legacy apps.
> > >
> > > If you remember when DOS was introduced in the early 80s, version 1.X was
> > > a lot like CP/M; as it was revised to 2.X and then 3.X, it gradually
> > > became a lot more like Unix than CP/M, with a hierarchical file system,
> > > batch files, and then later versions even had online help.
> > >
> > > Now that should tell you something: namely, that Unix was a mature
> > > standard for text consoles even in the early 80s when DOS was being forged
> > > in Redmond. Linux of course is an Open Source and contemporary
> > > implementation of Unix, and is therefore a decade ahead of the game
> > > compared to DOS.
> > >
> > > Linux is also a fundamentally dual personality system, with its GUI being
> > > a robust add-on to the underlying text based console system.
> > >
> > > Linux was created as Open Source on the internet and is maintained and
> > > developed there. It is a fundamental mistake to think of it in the same
> > > market terms as the other major OS. Of course there is no market for Linux
> > > accessibility solutions. But there are users and there is need, and that
> > > need is being met by and large without benefit of market concepts.
> > >
> > > How do people make a living in the Open Source world? By selling services,
> > > not products. Products in the Open Source world are organic things. They
> > > take root, they grow, they live or die on their merits, and they both give
> > > to and take from their users. There would be no Speakup if it were
> > > conceived on a marketing model of accessibility solutions,  trust me on
> > > that one.
> > >
> > > So - don't worry about Linux, it is in there for the long haul.
> > >
> > > I was recently tempted to spring for a preinstalled Linux system when I
> > > last upgraded, but opted for the "rolling my own" solution. I am convinced
> > > that if I had plunked down for a package deal I would have ended up
> > > overhauling it anyway.
> > >
> > > Will Linux ever be a mass market product suitable for the people who check
> > > their email once a week and want their machine to do what they want, and
> > > not what they say? Probably not. There may always be a niche for a
> > > Windows-type OS with its closely guarded secrets and predatory practices,
> > > with all the insides protected from meddling users and all the decision
> > > details already made for them.
> > >
> > > Best regards - and welcome to the list!
> > >
> > > Chuck
> > >
> > >
> > > Visit me at http://www.mhonline.net/~chuckh
> > > The Moon is Waxing Crescent (46% of Full)
> > >
> > >
> > > _______________________________________________
> > > Speakup mailing list
> > > Speakup@braille.uwo.ca
> > > http://speech.braille.uwo.ca/mailman/listinfo/speakup
> > >
> > >
> >
> >
> > _______________________________________________
> > Speakup mailing list
> > Speakup@braille.uwo.ca
> > http://speech.braille.uwo.ca/mailman/listinfo/speakup
>
> _______________________________________________
> Speakup mailing list
> Speakup@braille.uwo.ca
> http://speech.braille.uwo.ca/mailman/listinfo/speakup
>

-- 

				Janina Sajka, Director
				Technology Research and Development
				Governmental Relations Group
				American Foundation for the Blind (AFB)

Email: janina@afb.net		Phone: (202) 408-8175

Chair, Accessibility SIG
Open Electronic Book Forum (OEBF)
http://www.openebook.org

Will electronic books surpass print books? Read our white paper,
Surpassing Gutenberg, at http://www.afb.org/ebook.asp

Download a free sample Digital Talking Book edition of Martin Luther
King Jr's inspiring "I Have A Dream" speech at
http://www.afb.org/mlkweb.asp

Learn how to make accessible software at
http://www.afb.org/accessapp.asp

Re: Hewlet Packard and Linux

[Darragh]

I was very interested in visiting that page, but unfortunately, its a broken
link.

Darragh
PS. Thanks for the reply about the links, I got the files that I was looking
for.
This e-mail, and any files transmitted with it, including replies and
forwarded copies (which may contain alterations) subsequently transmitted
are confidential and solely for the use of the intended recipient.  If you
have received it in error, please delete it from your system, do not use or
disclose the information in any way, and notify me immediately.
----- Original Message -----
From: Janina Sajka <janina@afb.net>
To: <speakup@braille.uwo.ca>
Sent: Sunday, August 26, 2001 9:05 PM
Subject: Re: Hewlet Packard and Linux


> On Sat, 25 Aug 2001, Gregory Nowak wrote:
>
> > I don't think we'll see what
> > you describe until there is an
> > x speech server.
>
> Well, if you're in San Francisco over the next few days, stop by the Sun
> Booth at LinuxWorld and see a prototype for GNOME. And/Or, join the
> Tuesday evening BOFA session at the downtown SF Marriott. Or just take a
> look at what's up at:
>
> http://www.gnome.org/projects/gap/
>
> My expectation is that the GNOME access elements will be the first out of
> the gate for actual users next year. But, it's increasingly looking like
> GNOME will not be the only choice.
>
> That's good of course. Choice is good.
>
> Janina
>
>
>
> > This would of course give us the ease of use of windows
> > (no more commands, just menus), and it would give us
> > access to staroffice and other things.
> > When that happens, Linux will be on an equal footing with windows
> > (if not farther) in terms of speech access.
> > Greg
> >
> >
> > On Sat, Aug 25, 2001 at 11:28:36PM +1000, Shaun Oliver wrote:
> > > I've been following this thread for a while. and haven't decided to
say
> > > something until now.
> > > I'm of the oppinion that linux as an operating system accessable to
the
> > > blind, is streets ahead of it's comercial counterparts.
> > > I say this because as a user of both operating systems, I can see the
place
> > > for both of them. I find that windows in a normal office environment
is a
> > > very powerful tool indeed. However, if I could have the power of linux
and
> > > the ease of use of windows all rolled into one, I'd be a very happy
camper.
> > > I mean I'd like the nice frilly bits of microsoft word and excell and
all
> > > that but right at the moment, I haven't seen gpl console versions of
either.
> > > Linux is a great workhorse especially if you want to run it as a
server box
> > > or as a firewall, but I want the durrability of linux with the ease of
use
> > > of windows but I guess for now I'll just have to learn how to use
linux to
> > > it's full potential.
> > > Don't get me wrong here, I'm not complaining, just stating how I feel
on the
> > > whole issue.
> > > Shaun..
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > > ------------------------------------
> > > Make Unlimited phone calls from your PC to ANY phone in the World!
> > > http://www.eboom.com/free/
> > > ----- Original Message -----
> > > From: "Charles Hallenbeck" <chuckh@mhonline.net>
> > > To: <speakup@braille.uwo.ca>
> > > Sent: Saturday, August 25, 2001 10:59 PM
> > > Subject: Re: Hewlet Packard and Linux
> > >
> > >
> > > > Charlie and all -
> > > >
> > > > Your remarks about DOS are interesting - I was a DOS fan too and
actually
> > > > never moved to Windows, except to support my Arkenstone Open Book
Unbound
> > > > software. My machine is presently a dual boot machine so I can se
Linux to
> > > > get work done or else at boot time select DOS (I use the Caldera
> > > > OpenDOS) to use my scanner software and one or two other legacy
apps.
> > > >
> > > > If you remember when DOS was introduced in the early 80s, version
1.X was
> > > > a lot like CP/M; as it was revised to 2.X and then 3.X, it gradually
> > > > became a lot more like Unix than CP/M, with a hierarchical file
system,
> > > > batch files, and then later versions even had online help.
> > > >
> > > > Now that should tell you something: namely, that Unix was a mature
> > > > standard for text consoles even in the early 80s when DOS was being
forged
> > > > in Redmond. Linux of course is an Open Source and contemporary
> > > > implementation of Unix, and is therefore a decade ahead of the game
> > > > compared to DOS.
> > > >
> > > > Linux is also a fundamentally dual personality system, with its GUI
being
> > > > a robust add-on to the underlying text based console system.
> > > >
> > > > Linux was created as Open Source on the internet and is maintained
and
> > > > developed there. It is a fundamental mistake to think of it in the
same
> > > > market terms as the other major OS. Of course there is no market for
Linux
> > > > accessibility solutions. But there are users and there is need, and
that
> > > > need is being met by and large without benefit of market concepts.
> > > >
> > > > How do people make a living in the Open Source world? By selling
services,
> > > > not products. Products in the Open Source world are organic things.
They
> > > > take root, they grow, they live or die on their merits, and they
both give
> > > > to and take from their users. There would be no Speakup if it were
> > > > conceived on a marketing model of accessibility solutions,  trust me
on
> > > > that one.
> > > >
> > > > So - don't worry about Linux, it is in there for the long haul.
> > > >
> > > > I was recently tempted to spring for a preinstalled Linux system
when I
> > > > last upgraded, but opted for the "rolling my own" solution. I am
convinced
> > > > that if I had plunked down for a package deal I would have ended up
> > > > overhauling it anyway.
> > > >
> > > > Will Linux ever be a mass market product suitable for the people who
check
> > > > their email once a week and want their machine to do what they want,
and
> > > > not what they say? Probably not. There may always be a niche for a
> > > > Windows-type OS with its closely guarded secrets and predatory
practices,
> > > > with all the insides protected from meddling users and all the
decision
> > > > details already made for them.
> > > >
> > > > Best regards - and welcome to the list!
> > > >
> > > > Chuck
> > > >
> > > >
> > > > Visit me at http://www.mhonline.net/~chuckh
> > > > The Moon is Waxing Crescent (46% of Full)
> > > >
> > > >
> > > > _______________________________________________
> > > > Speakup mailing list
> > > > Speakup@braille.uwo.ca
> > > > http://speech.braille.uwo.ca/mailman/listinfo/speakup
> > > >
> > > >
> > >
> > >
> > > _______________________________________________
> > > Speakup mailing list
> > > Speakup@braille.uwo.ca
> > > http://speech.braille.uwo.ca/mailman/listinfo/speakup
> >
> > _______________________________________________
> > Speakup mailing list
> > Speakup@braille.uwo.ca
> > http://speech.braille.uwo.ca/mailman/listinfo/speakup
> >
>
> --
>
> Janina Sajka, Director
> Technology Research and Development
> Governmental Relations Group
> American Foundation for the Blind (AFB)
>
> Email: janina@afb.net Phone: (202) 408-8175
>
> Chair, Accessibility SIG
> Open Electronic Book Forum (OEBF)
> http://www.openebook.org
>
> Will electronic books surpass print books? Read our white paper,
> Surpassing Gutenberg, at http://www.afb.org/ebook.asp
>
> Download a free sample Digital Talking Book edition of Martin Luther
> King Jr's inspiring "I Have A Dream" speech at
> http://www.afb.org/mlkweb.asp
>
> Learn how to make accessible software at
> http://www.afb.org/accessapp.asp
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> Speakup mailing list
> Speakup@braille.uwo.ca
> http://speech.braille.uwo.ca/mailman/listinfo/speakup
>

Re: Hewlet Packard and Linux

[Janina Sajka]

Yes, very sorry about that. The correct uri for the GNOME Accessibility
Project is:

	http://developer.gnome.org/projects/gap/


On Sun, 26 Aug 2001, Darragh wrote:

> I was very interested in visiting that page, but unfortunately, its a broken
> link.
>
> Darragh
> PS. Thanks for the reply about the links, I got the files that I was looking
> for.
> This e-mail, and any files transmitted with it, including replies and
> forwarded copies (which may contain alterations) subsequently transmitted
> are confidential and solely for the use of the intended recipient.  If you
> have received it in error, please delete it from your system, do not use or
> disclose the information in any way, and notify me immediately.
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: Janina Sajka <janina@afb.net>
> To: <speakup@braille.uwo.ca>
> Sent: Sunday, August 26, 2001 9:05 PM
> Subject: Re: Hewlet Packard and Linux
>
>
> > On Sat, 25 Aug 2001, Gregory Nowak wrote:
> >
> > > I don't think we'll see what
> > > you describe until there is an
> > > x speech server.
> >
> > Well, if you're in San Francisco over the next few days, stop by the Sun
> > Booth at LinuxWorld and see a prototype for GNOME. And/Or, join the
> > Tuesday evening BOFA session at the downtown SF Marriott. Or just take a
> > look at what's up at:
> >
> > http://www.gnome.org/projects/gap/
> >
> > My expectation is that the GNOME access elements will be the first out of
> > the gate for actual users next year. But, it's increasingly looking like
> > GNOME will not be the only choice.
> >
> > That's good of course. Choice is good.
> >
> > Janina
> >
> >
> >
> > > This would of course give us the ease of use of windows
> > > (no more commands, just menus), and it would give us
> > > access to staroffice and other things.
> > > When that happens, Linux will be on an equal footing with windows
> > > (if not farther) in terms of speech access.
> > > Greg
> > >
> > >
> > > On Sat, Aug 25, 2001 at 11:28:36PM +1000, Shaun Oliver wrote:
> > > > I've been following this thread for a while. and haven't decided to
> say
> > > > something until now.
> > > > I'm of the oppinion that linux as an operating system accessable to
> the
> > > > blind, is streets ahead of it's comercial counterparts.
> > > > I say this because as a user of both operating systems, I can see the
> place
> > > > for both of them. I find that windows in a normal office environment
> is a
> > > > very powerful tool indeed. However, if I could have the power of linux
> and
> > > > the ease of use of windows all rolled into one, I'd be a very happy
> camper.
> > > > I mean I'd like the nice frilly bits of microsoft word and excell and
> all
> > > > that but right at the moment, I haven't seen gpl console versions of
> either.
> > > > Linux is a great workhorse especially if you want to run it as a
> server box
> > > > or as a firewall, but I want the durrability of linux with the ease of
> use
> > > > of windows but I guess for now I'll just have to learn how to use
> linux to
> > > > it's full potential.
> > > > Don't get me wrong here, I'm not complaining, just stating how I feel
> on the
> > > > whole issue.
> > > > Shaun..
> > > >
> > > >
> > > >
> > > > ------------------------------------
> > > > Make Unlimited phone calls from your PC to ANY phone in the World!
> > > > http://www.eboom.com/free/
> > > > ----- Original Message -----
> > > > From: "Charles Hallenbeck" <chuckh@mhonline.net>
> > > > To: <speakup@braille.uwo.ca>
> > > > Sent: Saturday, August 25, 2001 10:59 PM
> > > > Subject: Re: Hewlet Packard and Linux
> > > >
> > > >
> > > > > Charlie and all -
> > > > >
> > > > > Your remarks about DOS are interesting - I was a DOS fan too and
> actually
> > > > > never moved to Windows, except to support my Arkenstone Open Book
> Unbound
> > > > > software. My machine is presently a dual boot machine so I can se
> Linux to
> > > > > get work done or else at boot time select DOS (I use the Caldera
> > > > > OpenDOS) to use my scanner software and one or two other legacy
> apps.
> > > > >
> > > > > If you remember when DOS was introduced in the early 80s, version
> 1.X was
> > > > > a lot like CP/M; as it was revised to 2.X and then 3.X, it gradually
> > > > > became a lot more like Unix than CP/M, with a hierarchical file
> system,
> > > > > batch files, and then later versions even had online help.
> > > > >
> > > > > Now that should tell you something: namely, that Unix was a mature
> > > > > standard for text consoles even in the early 80s when DOS was being
> forged
> > > > > in Redmond. Linux of course is an Open Source and contemporary
> > > > > implementation of Unix, and is therefore a decade ahead of the game
> > > > > compared to DOS.
> > > > >
> > > > > Linux is also a fundamentally dual personality system, with its GUI
> being
> > > > > a robust add-on to the underlying text based console system.
> > > > >
> > > > > Linux was created as Open Source on the internet and is maintained
> and
> > > > > developed there. It is a fundamental mistake to think of it in the
> same
> > > > > market terms as the other major OS. Of course there is no market for
> Linux
> > > > > accessibility solutions. But there are users and there is need, and
> that
> > > > > need is being met by and large without benefit of market concepts.
> > > > >
> > > > > How do people make a living in the Open Source world? By selling
> services,
> > > > > not products. Products in the Open Source world are organic things.
> They
> > > > > take root, they grow, they live or die on their merits, and they
> both give
> > > > > to and take from their users. There would be no Speakup if it were
> > > > > conceived on a marketing model of accessibility solutions,  trust me
> on
> > > > > that one.
> > > > >
> > > > > So - don't worry about Linux, it is in there for the long haul.
> > > > >
> > > > > I was recently tempted to spring for a preinstalled Linux system
> when I
> > > > > last upgraded, but opted for the "rolling my own" solution. I am
> convinced
> > > > > that if I had plunked down for a package deal I would have ended up
> > > > > overhauling it anyway.
> > > > >
> > > > > Will Linux ever be a mass market product suitable for the people who
> check
> > > > > their email once a week and want their machine to do what they want,
> and
> > > > > not what they say? Probably not. There may always be a niche for a
> > > > > Windows-type OS with its closely guarded secrets and predatory
> practices,
> > > > > with all the insides protected from meddling users and all the
> decision
> > > > > details already made for them.
> > > > >
> > > > > Best regards - and welcome to the list!
> > > > >
> > > > > Chuck
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > > Visit me at http://www.mhonline.net/~chuckh
> > > > > The Moon is Waxing Crescent (46% of Full)
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > > _______________________________________________
> > > > > Speakup mailing list
> > > > > Speakup@braille.uwo.ca
> > > > > http://speech.braille.uwo.ca/mailman/listinfo/speakup
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > >
> > > >
> > > > _______________________________________________
> > > > Speakup mailing list
> > > > Speakup@braille.uwo.ca
> > > > http://speech.braille.uwo.ca/mailman/listinfo/speakup
> > >
> > > _______________________________________________
> > > Speakup mailing list
> > > Speakup@braille.uwo.ca
> > > http://speech.braille.uwo.ca/mailman/listinfo/speakup
> > >
> >
> > --
> >
> > Janina Sajka, Director
> > Technology Research and Development
> > Governmental Relations Group
> > American Foundation for the Blind (AFB)
> >
> > Email: janina@afb.net Phone: (202) 408-8175
> >
> > Chair, Accessibility SIG
> > Open Electronic Book Forum (OEBF)
> > http://www.openebook.org
> >
> > Will electronic books surpass print books? Read our white paper,
> > Surpassing Gutenberg, at http://www.afb.org/ebook.asp
> >
> > Download a free sample Digital Talking Book edition of Martin Luther
> > King Jr's inspiring "I Have A Dream" speech at
> > http://www.afb.org/mlkweb.asp
> >
> > Learn how to make accessible software at
> > http://www.afb.org/accessapp.asp
> >
> >
> > _______________________________________________
> > Speakup mailing list
> > Speakup@braille.uwo.ca
> > http://speech.braille.uwo.ca/mailman/listinfo/speakup
> >
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> Speakup mailing list
> Speakup@braille.uwo.ca
> http://speech.braille.uwo.ca/mailman/listinfo/speakup
>

-- 

				Janina Sajka, Director
				Technology Research and Development
				Governmental Relations Group
				American Foundation for the Blind (AFB)

Email: janina@afb.net		Phone: (202) 408-8175

Chair, Accessibility SIG
Open Electronic Book Forum (OEBF)
http://www.openebook.org

Will electronic books surpass print books? Read our white paper,
Surpassing Gutenberg, at http://www.afb.org/ebook.asp

Download a free sample Digital Talking Book edition of Martin Luther
King Jr's inspiring "I Have A Dream" speech at
http://www.afb.org/mlkweb.asp

Learn how to make accessible software at
http://www.afb.org/accessapp.asp

Re: Hewlet Packard and Linux

[Peter M. Konka]

Shaun,

         Before I installed Linux on my laptop, i had the same question in 
my head.  Will there be any possible chance that I can install Windows 
applications under my Linux machine.  The answer is yes.  You can install 
windows applications under linux.  I'm not sure exactly how to do it, but i 
do know that you need a Windows emulator called VM Ware.

         Now, the person you should speak to about this is Janina, she 
explained this to me before.

         From my understanding about this Windows eumlator, it basically 
turns Linux into windows, and allows you to install any windows 
applications or drivers.

         At the moment, i installed Linux on my brand new Toshiba 
laptop.  I am running Linux on  a dual boot on this laptop, because 
I  wasn't sure if my drivers or hardare rather would be compatible at 
all...  I heard a lot of good things about linux, and if i learn how to use 
it, i am thinking of switching from Windows to linux on this machine.  And 
I have other 2 machines at home and work, which the one at work I am 
thinking of backing up my information and formatting the drive clean and 
isntalling Linux as the only operating syste.  And I will also do that on 
one of the systems at home.

I will keep a Windows machine just in case.  But i have a feeling that 
linux will become my new favorite operating system other then dos.

--- Peter

At 11:28 PM 8/25/01 +1000, you wrote:
>I've been following this thread for a while. and haven't decided to say
>something until now.
>I'm of the oppinion that linux as an operating system accessable to the
>blind, is streets ahead of it's comercial counterparts.
>I say this because as a user of both operating systems, I can see the place
>for both of them. I find that windows in a normal office environment is a
>very powerful tool indeed. However, if I could have the power of linux and
>the ease of use of windows all rolled into one, I'd be a very happy camper.
>I mean I'd like the nice frilly bits of microsoft word and excell and all
>that but right at the moment, I haven't seen gpl console versions of either.
>Linux is a great workhorse especially if you want to run it as a server box
>or as a firewall, but I want the durrability of linux with the ease of use
>of windows but I guess for now I'll just have to learn how to use linux to
>it's full potential.
>Don't get me wrong here, I'm not complaining, just stating how I feel on the
>whole issue.
>Shaun..
>
>
>
>------------------------------------
>Make Unlimited phone calls from your PC to ANY phone in the World!
>http://www.eboom.com/free/
>----- Original Message -----
>From: "Charles Hallenbeck" <chuckh@mhonline.net>
>To: <speakup@braille.uwo.ca>
>Sent: Saturday, August 25, 2001 10:59 PM
>Subject: Re: Hewlet Packard and Linux
>
>
> > Charlie and all -
> >
> > Your remarks about DOS are interesting - I was a DOS fan too and actually
> > never moved to Windows, except to support my Arkenstone Open Book Unbound
> > software. My machine is presently a dual boot machine so I can se Linux to
> > get work done or else at boot time select DOS (I use the Caldera
> > OpenDOS) to use my scanner software and one or two other legacy apps.
> >
> > If you remember when DOS was introduced in the early 80s, version 1.X was
> > a lot like CP/M; as it was revised to 2.X and then 3.X, it gradually
> > became a lot more like Unix than CP/M, with a hierarchical file system,
> > batch files, and then later versions even had online help.
> >
> > Now that should tell you something: namely, that Unix was a mature
> > standard for text consoles even in the early 80s when DOS was being forged
> > in Redmond. Linux of course is an Open Source and contemporary
> > implementation of Unix, and is therefore a decade ahead of the game
> > compared to DOS.
> >
> > Linux is also a fundamentally dual personality system, with its GUI being
> > a robust add-on to the underlying text based console system.
> >
> > Linux was created as Open Source on the internet and is maintained and
> > developed there. It is a fundamental mistake to think of it in the same
> > market terms as the other major OS. Of course there is no market for Linux
> > accessibility solutions. But there are users and there is need, and that
> > need is being met by and large without benefit of market concepts.
> >
> > How do people make a living in the Open Source world? By selling services,
> > not products. Products in the Open Source world are organic things. They
> > take root, they grow, they live or die on their merits, and they both give
> > to and take from their users. There would be no Speakup if it were
> > conceived on a marketing model of accessibility solutions,  trust me on
> > that one.
> >
> > So - don't worry about Linux, it is in there for the long haul.
> >
> > I was recently tempted to spring for a preinstalled Linux system when I
> > last upgraded, but opted for the "rolling my own" solution. I am convinced
> > that if I had plunked down for a package deal I would have ended up
> > overhauling it anyway.
> >
> > Will Linux ever be a mass market product suitable for the people who check
> > their email once a week and want their machine to do what they want, and
> > not what they say? Probably not. There may always be a niche for a
> > Windows-type OS with its closely guarded secrets and predatory practices,
> > with all the insides protected from meddling users and all the decision
> > details already made for them.
> >
> > Best regards - and welcome to the list!
> >
> > Chuck
> >
> >
> > Visit me at http://www.mhonline.net/~chuckh
> > The Moon is Waxing Crescent (46% of Full)
> >
> >
> > _______________________________________________
> > Speakup mailing list
> > Speakup@braille.uwo.ca
> > http://speech.braille.uwo.ca/mailman/listinfo/speakup
> >
> >
>
>
>_______________________________________________
>Speakup mailing list
>Speakup@braille.uwo.ca
>http://speech.braille.uwo.ca/mailman/listinfo/speakup

Re: Hewlet Packard and Linux

[Gregory Nowak]

Don't you need to use x for vmware?
Greg


On Mon, Aug 27, 2001 at 05:57:32PM -0400, Peter M. Konka wrote:
> Shaun,
> 
>          Before I installed Linux on my laptop, i had the same question in 
> my head.  Will there be any possible chance that I can install Windows 
> applications under my Linux machine.  The answer is yes.  You can install 
> windows applications under linux.  I'm not sure exactly how to do it, but i 
> do know that you need a Windows emulator called VM Ware.
> 
>          Now, the person you should speak to about this is Janina, she 
> explained this to me before.
> 
>          From my understanding about this Windows eumlator, it basically 
> turns Linux into windows, and allows you to install any windows 
> applications or drivers.
> 
>          At the moment, i installed Linux on my brand new Toshiba 
> laptop.  I am running Linux on  a dual boot on this laptop, because 
> I  wasn't sure if my drivers or hardare rather would be compatible at 
> all...  I heard a lot of good things about linux, and if i learn how to use 
> it, i am thinking of switching from Windows to linux on this machine.  And 
> I have other 2 machines at home and work, which the one at work I am 
> thinking of backing up my information and formatting the drive clean and 
> isntalling Linux as the only operating syste.  And I will also do that on 
> one of the systems at home.
> 
> I will keep a Windows machine just in case.  But i have a feeling that 
> linux will become my new favorite operating system other then dos.
> 
> --- Peter
> 
> At 11:28 PM 8/25/01 +1000, you wrote:
> >I've been following this thread for a while. and haven't decided to say
> >something until now.
> >I'm of the oppinion that linux as an operating system accessable to the
> >blind, is streets ahead of it's comercial counterparts.
> >I say this because as a user of both operating systems, I can see the place
> >for both of them. I find that windows in a normal office environment is a
> >very powerful tool indeed. However, if I could have the power of linux and
> >the ease of use of windows all rolled into one, I'd be a very happy camper.
> >I mean I'd like the nice frilly bits of microsoft word and excell and all
> >that but right at the moment, I haven't seen gpl console versions of either.
> >Linux is a great workhorse especially if you want to run it as a server box
> >or as a firewall, but I want the durrability of linux with the ease of use
> >of windows but I guess for now I'll just have to learn how to use linux to
> >it's full potential.
> >Don't get me wrong here, I'm not complaining, just stating how I feel on the
> >whole issue.
> >Shaun..
> >
> >
> >
> >------------------------------------
> >Make Unlimited phone calls from your PC to ANY phone in the World!
> >http://www.eboom.com/free/
> >----- Original Message -----
> >From: "Charles Hallenbeck" <chuckh@mhonline.net>
> >To: <speakup@braille.uwo.ca>
> >Sent: Saturday, August 25, 2001 10:59 PM
> >Subject: Re: Hewlet Packard and Linux
> >
> >
> > > Charlie and all -
> > >
> > > Your remarks about DOS are interesting - I was a DOS fan too and actually
> > > never moved to Windows, except to support my Arkenstone Open Book Unbound
> > > software. My machine is presently a dual boot machine so I can se Linux to
> > > get work done or else at boot time select DOS (I use the Caldera
> > > OpenDOS) to use my scanner software and one or two other legacy apps.
> > >
> > > If you remember when DOS was introduced in the early 80s, version 1.X was
> > > a lot like CP/M; as it was revised to 2.X and then 3.X, it gradually
> > > became a lot more like Unix than CP/M, with a hierarchical file system,
> > > batch files, and then later versions even had online help.
> > >
> > > Now that should tell you something: namely, that Unix was a mature
> > > standard for text consoles even in the early 80s when DOS was being forged
> > > in Redmond. Linux of course is an Open Source and contemporary
> > > implementation of Unix, and is therefore a decade ahead of the game
> > > compared to DOS.
> > >
> > > Linux is also a fundamentally dual personality system, with its GUI being
> > > a robust add-on to the underlying text based console system.
> > >
> > > Linux was created as Open Source on the internet and is maintained and
> > > developed there. It is a fundamental mistake to think of it in the same
> > > market terms as the other major OS. Of course there is no market for Linux
> > > accessibility solutions. But there are users and there is need, and that
> > > need is being met by and large without benefit of market concepts.
> > >
> > > How do people make a living in the Open Source world? By selling services,
> > > not products. Products in the Open Source world are organic things. They
> > > take root, they grow, they live or die on their merits, and they both give
> > > to and take from their users. There would be no Speakup if it were
> > > conceived on a marketing model of accessibility solutions,  trust me on
> > > that one.
> > >
> > > So - don't worry about Linux, it is in there for the long haul.
> > >
> > > I was recently tempted to spring for a preinstalled Linux system when I
> > > last upgraded, but opted for the "rolling my own" solution. I am convinced
> > > that if I had plunked down for a package deal I would have ended up
> > > overhauling it anyway.
> > >
> > > Will Linux ever be a mass market product suitable for the people who check
> > > their email once a week and want their machine to do what they want, and
> > > not what they say? Probably not. There may always be a niche for a
> > > Windows-type OS with its closely guarded secrets and predatory practices,
> > > with all the insides protected from meddling users and all the decision
> > > details already made for them.
> > >
> > > Best regards - and welcome to the list!
> > >
> > > Chuck
> > >
> > >
> > > Visit me at http://www.mhonline.net/~chuckh
> > > The Moon is Waxing Crescent (46% of Full)
> > >
> > >
> > > _______________________________________________
> > > Speakup mailing list
> > > Speakup@braille.uwo.ca
> > > http://speech.braille.uwo.ca/mailman/listinfo/speakup
> > >
> > >
> >
> >
> >_______________________________________________
> >Speakup mailing list
> >Speakup@braille.uwo.ca
> >http://speech.braille.uwo.ca/mailman/listinfo/speakup
> 
> 
> _______________________________________________
> Speakup mailing list
> Speakup@braille.uwo.ca
> http://speech.braille.uwo.ca/mailman/listinfo/speakup

Re: Hewlet Packard and Linux

[Janina Sajka]

Not exactly. VMware runs over X, but that doesn't mean you have to do
anything in X once it's all set up. The setup itself is not
accessible--but then, neither is the Windows setup process accessible.
 On
Mon, 27 Aug 2001, Gregory Nowak wrote:

> Don't you need to use x for vmware?
> Greg
>
>
> On Mon, Aug 27, 2001 at 05:57:32PM -0400, Peter M. Konka wrote:
> > Shaun,
> >
> >          Before I installed Linux on my laptop, i had the same question in
> > my head.  Will there be any possible chance that I can install Windows
> > applications under my Linux machine.  The answer is yes.  You can install
> > windows applications under linux.  I'm not sure exactly how to do it, but i
> > do know that you need a Windows emulator called VM Ware.
> >
> >          Now, the person you should speak to about this is Janina, she
> > explained this to me before.
> >
> >          From my understanding about this Windows eumlator, it basically
> > turns Linux into windows, and allows you to install any windows
> > applications or drivers.
> >
> >          At the moment, i installed Linux on my brand new Toshiba
> > laptop.  I am running Linux on  a dual boot on this laptop, because
> > I  wasn't sure if my drivers or hardare rather would be compatible at
> > all...  I heard a lot of good things about linux, and if i learn how to use
> > it, i am thinking of switching from Windows to linux on this machine.  And
> > I have other 2 machines at home and work, which the one at work I am
> > thinking of backing up my information and formatting the drive clean and
> > isntalling Linux as the only operating syste.  And I will also do that on
> > one of the systems at home.
> >
> > I will keep a Windows machine just in case.  But i have a feeling that
> > linux will become my new favorite operating system other then dos.
> >
> > --- Peter
> >
> > At 11:28 PM 8/25/01 +1000, you wrote:
> > >I've been following this thread for a while. and haven't decided to say
> > >something until now.
> > >I'm of the oppinion that linux as an operating system accessable to the
> > >blind, is streets ahead of it's comercial counterparts.
> > >I say this because as a user of both operating systems, I can see the place
> > >for both of them. I find that windows in a normal office environment is a
> > >very powerful tool indeed. However, if I could have the power of linux and
> > >the ease of use of windows all rolled into one, I'd be a very happy camper.
> > >I mean I'd like the nice frilly bits of microsoft word and excell and all
> > >that but right at the moment, I haven't seen gpl console versions of either.
> > >Linux is a great workhorse especially if you want to run it as a server box
> > >or as a firewall, but I want the durrability of linux with the ease of use
> > >of windows but I guess for now I'll just have to learn how to use linux to
> > >it's full potential.
> > >Don't get me wrong here, I'm not complaining, just stating how I feel on the
> > >whole issue.
> > >Shaun..
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >------------------------------------
> > >Make Unlimited phone calls from your PC to ANY phone in the World!
> > >http://www.eboom.com/free/
> > >----- Original Message -----
> > >From: "Charles Hallenbeck" <chuckh@mhonline.net>
> > >To: <speakup@braille.uwo.ca>
> > >Sent: Saturday, August 25, 2001 10:59 PM
> > >Subject: Re: Hewlet Packard and Linux
> > >
> > >
> > > > Charlie and all -
> > > >
> > > > Your remarks about DOS are interesting - I was a DOS fan too and actually
> > > > never moved to Windows, except to support my Arkenstone Open Book Unbound
> > > > software. My machine is presently a dual boot machine so I can se Linux to
> > > > get work done or else at boot time select DOS (I use the Caldera
> > > > OpenDOS) to use my scanner software and one or two other legacy apps.
> > > >
> > > > If you remember when DOS was introduced in the early 80s, version 1.X was
> > > > a lot like CP/M; as it was revised to 2.X and then 3.X, it gradually
> > > > became a lot more like Unix than CP/M, with a hierarchical file system,
> > > > batch files, and then later versions even had online help.
> > > >
> > > > Now that should tell you something: namely, that Unix was a mature
> > > > standard for text consoles even in the early 80s when DOS was being forged
> > > > in Redmond. Linux of course is an Open Source and contemporary
> > > > implementation of Unix, and is therefore a decade ahead of the game
> > > > compared to DOS.
> > > >
> > > > Linux is also a fundamentally dual personality system, with its GUI being
> > > > a robust add-on to the underlying text based console system.
> > > >
> > > > Linux was created as Open Source on the internet and is maintained and
> > > > developed there. It is a fundamental mistake to think of it in the same
> > > > market terms as the other major OS. Of course there is no market for Linux
> > > > accessibility solutions. But there are users and there is need, and that
> > > > need is being met by and large without benefit of market concepts.
> > > >
> > > > How do people make a living in the Open Source world? By selling services,
> > > > not products. Products in the Open Source world are organic things. They
> > > > take root, they grow, they live or die on their merits, and they both give
> > > > to and take from their users. There would be no Speakup if it were
> > > > conceived on a marketing model of accessibility solutions,  trust me on
> > > > that one.
> > > >
> > > > So - don't worry about Linux, it is in there for the long haul.
> > > >
> > > > I was recently tempted to spring for a preinstalled Linux system when I
> > > > last upgraded, but opted for the "rolling my own" solution. I am convinced
> > > > that if I had plunked down for a package deal I would have ended up
> > > > overhauling it anyway.
> > > >
> > > > Will Linux ever be a mass market product suitable for the people who check
> > > > their email once a week and want their machine to do what they want, and
> > > > not what they say? Probably not. There may always be a niche for a
> > > > Windows-type OS with its closely guarded secrets and predatory practices,
> > > > with all the insides protected from meddling users and all the decision
> > > > details already made for them.
> > > >
> > > > Best regards - and welcome to the list!
> > > >
> > > > Chuck
> > > >
> > > >
> > > > Visit me at http://www.mhonline.net/~chuckh
> > > > The Moon is Waxing Crescent (46% of Full)
> > > >
> > > >
> > > > _______________________________________________
> > > > Speakup mailing list
> > > > Speakup@braille.uwo.ca
> > > > http://speech.braille.uwo.ca/mailman/listinfo/speakup
> > > >
> > > >
> > >
> > >
> > >_______________________________________________
> > >Speakup mailing list
> > >Speakup@braille.uwo.ca
> > >http://speech.braille.uwo.ca/mailman/listinfo/speakup
> >
> >
> > _______________________________________________
> > Speakup mailing list
> > Speakup@braille.uwo.ca
> > http://speech.braille.uwo.ca/mailman/listinfo/speakup
>
> _______________________________________________
> Speakup mailing list
> Speakup@braille.uwo.ca
> http://speech.braille.uwo.ca/mailman/listinfo/speakup
>

-- 

				Janina Sajka, Director
				Technology Research and Development
				Governmental Relations Group
				American Foundation for the Blind (AFB)

Email: janina@afb.net		Phone: (202) 408-8175

Chair, Accessibility SIG
Open Electronic Book Forum (OEBF)
http://www.openebook.org

Will electronic books surpass print books? Read our white paper,
Surpassing Gutenberg, at http://www.afb.org/ebook.asp

Download a free sample Digital Talking Book edition of Martin Luther
King Jr's inspiring "I Have A Dream" speech at
http://www.afb.org/mlkweb.asp

Learn how to make accessible software at
http://www.afb.org/accessapp.asp

Re: Hewlet Packard and Linux

[Gregory Nowak]

So, you're saying that if I grab
a sightling to help me set up vm ware in X, I can then invoke
it and run the other os from the console? 
Also, this is free, unlike win for lin, right?
Greg


On Mon, Aug 27, 2001 at 11:50:02PM -0400, Janina Sajka wrote:
> Not exactly. VMware runs over X, but that doesn't mean you have to do
> anything in X once it's all set up. The setup itself is not
> accessible--but then, neither is the Windows setup process accessible.
>  On
> Mon, 27 Aug 2001, Gregory Nowak wrote:
> 
> > Don't you need to use x for vmware?
> > Greg
> >
> >
> > On Mon, Aug 27, 2001 at 05:57:32PM -0400, Peter M. Konka wrote:
> > > Shaun,
> > >
> > >          Before I installed Linux on my laptop, i had the same question in
> > > my head.  Will there be any possible chance that I can install Windows
> > > applications under my Linux machine.  The answer is yes.  You can install
> > > windows applications under linux.  I'm not sure exactly how to do it, but i
> > > do know that you need a Windows emulator called VM Ware.
> > >
> > >          Now, the person you should speak to about this is Janina, she
> > > explained this to me before.
> > >
> > >          From my understanding about this Windows eumlator, it basically
> > > turns Linux into windows, and allows you to install any windows
> > > applications or drivers.
> > >
> > >          At the moment, i installed Linux on my brand new Toshiba
> > > laptop.  I am running Linux on  a dual boot on this laptop, because
> > > I  wasn't sure if my drivers or hardare rather would be compatible at
> > > all...  I heard a lot of good things about linux, and if i learn how to use
> > > it, i am thinking of switching from Windows to linux on this machine.  And
> > > I have other 2 machines at home and work, which the one at work I am
> > > thinking of backing up my information and formatting the drive clean and
> > > isntalling Linux as the only operating syste.  And I will also do that on
> > > one of the systems at home.
> > >
> > > I will keep a Windows machine just in case.  But i have a feeling that
> > > linux will become my new favorite operating system other then dos.
> > >
> > > --- Peter
> > >
> > > At 11:28 PM 8/25/01 +1000, you wrote:
> > > >I've been following this thread for a while. and haven't decided to say
> > > >something until now.
> > > >I'm of the oppinion that linux as an operating system accessable to the
> > > >blind, is streets ahead of it's comercial counterparts.
> > > >I say this because as a user of both operating systems, I can see the place
> > > >for both of them. I find that windows in a normal office environment is a
> > > >very powerful tool indeed. However, if I could have the power of linux and
> > > >the ease of use of windows all rolled into one, I'd be a very happy camper.
> > > >I mean I'd like the nice frilly bits of microsoft word and excell and all
> > > >that but right at the moment, I haven't seen gpl console versions of either.
> > > >Linux is a great workhorse especially if you want to run it as a server box
> > > >or as a firewall, but I want the durrability of linux with the ease of use
> > > >of windows but I guess for now I'll just have to learn how to use linux to
> > > >it's full potential.
> > > >Don't get me wrong here, I'm not complaining, just stating how I feel on the
> > > >whole issue.
> > > >Shaun..
> > > >
> > > >
> > > >
> > > >------------------------------------
> > > >Make Unlimited phone calls from your PC to ANY phone in the World!
> > > >http://www.eboom.com/free/
> > > >----- Original Message -----
> > > >From: "Charles Hallenbeck" <chuckh@mhonline.net>
> > > >To: <speakup@braille.uwo.ca>
> > > >Sent: Saturday, August 25, 2001 10:59 PM
> > > >Subject: Re: Hewlet Packard and Linux
> > > >
> > > >
> > > > > Charlie and all -
> > > > >
> > > > > Your remarks about DOS are interesting - I was a DOS fan too and actually
> > > > > never moved to Windows, except to support my Arkenstone Open Book Unbound
> > > > > software. My machine is presently a dual boot machine so I can se Linux to
> > > > > get work done or else at boot time select DOS (I use the Caldera
> > > > > OpenDOS) to use my scanner software and one or two other legacy apps.
> > > > >
> > > > > If you remember when DOS was introduced in the early 80s, version 1.X was
> > > > > a lot like CP/M; as it was revised to 2.X and then 3.X, it gradually
> > > > > became a lot more like Unix than CP/M, with a hierarchical file system,
> > > > > batch files, and then later versions even had online help.
> > > > >
> > > > > Now that should tell you something: namely, that Unix was a mature
> > > > > standard for text consoles even in the early 80s when DOS was being forged
> > > > > in Redmond. Linux of course is an Open Source and contemporary
> > > > > implementation of Unix, and is therefore a decade ahead of the game
> > > > > compared to DOS.
> > > > >
> > > > > Linux is also a fundamentally dual personality system, with its GUI being
> > > > > a robust add-on to the underlying text based console system.
> > > > >
> > > > > Linux was created as Open Source on the internet and is maintained and
> > > > > developed there. It is a fundamental mistake to think of it in the same
> > > > > market terms as the other major OS. Of course there is no market for Linux
> > > > > accessibility solutions. But there are users and there is need, and that
> > > > > need is being met by and large without benefit of market concepts.
> > > > >
> > > > > How do people make a living in the Open Source world? By selling services,
> > > > > not products. Products in the Open Source world are organic things. They
> > > > > take root, they grow, they live or die on their merits, and they both give
> > > > > to and take from their users. There would be no Speakup if it were
> > > > > conceived on a marketing model of accessibility solutions,  trust me on
> > > > > that one.
> > > > >
> > > > > So - don't worry about Linux, it is in there for the long haul.
> > > > >
> > > > > I was recently tempted to spring for a preinstalled Linux system when I
> > > > > last upgraded, but opted for the "rolling my own" solution. I am convinced
> > > > > that if I had plunked down for a package deal I would have ended up
> > > > > overhauling it anyway.
> > > > >
> > > > > Will Linux ever be a mass market product suitable for the people who check
> > > > > their email once a week and want their machine to do what they want, and
> > > > > not what they say? Probably not. There may always be a niche for a
> > > > > Windows-type OS with its closely guarded secrets and predatory practices,
> > > > > with all the insides protected from meddling users and all the decision
> > > > > details already made for them.
> > > > >
> > > > > Best regards - and welcome to the list!
> > > > >
> > > > > Chuck
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > > Visit me at http://www.mhonline.net/~chuckh
> > > > > The Moon is Waxing Crescent (46% of Full)
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > > _______________________________________________
> > > > > Speakup mailing list
> > > > > Speakup@braille.uwo.ca
> > > > > http://speech.braille.uwo.ca/mailman/listinfo/speakup
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > >
> > > >
> > > >_______________________________________________
> > > >Speakup mailing list
> > > >Speakup@braille.uwo.ca
> > > >http://speech.braille.uwo.ca/mailman/listinfo/speakup
> > >
> > >
> > > _______________________________________________
> > > Speakup mailing list
> > > Speakup@braille.uwo.ca
> > > http://speech.braille.uwo.ca/mailman/listinfo/speakup
> >
> > _______________________________________________
> > Speakup mailing list
> > Speakup@braille.uwo.ca
> > http://speech.braille.uwo.ca/mailman/listinfo/speakup
> >
> 
> -- 
> 
> 				Janina Sajka, Director
> 				Technology Research and Development
> 				Governmental Relations Group
> 				American Foundation for the Blind (AFB)
> 
> Email: janina@afb.net		Phone: (202) 408-8175
> 
> Chair, Accessibility SIG
> Open Electronic Book Forum (OEBF)
> http://www.openebook.org
> 
> Will electronic books surpass print books? Read our white paper,
> Surpassing Gutenberg, at http://www.afb.org/ebook.asp
> 
> Download a free sample Digital Talking Book edition of Martin Luther
> King Jr's inspiring "I Have A Dream" speech at
> http://www.afb.org/mlkweb.asp
> 
> Learn how to make accessible software at
> http://www.afb.org/accessapp.asp
> 
> 
> _______________________________________________
> Speakup mailing list
> Speakup@braille.uwo.ca
> http://speech.braille.uwo.ca/mailman/listinfo/speakup

Re: Hewlet Packard and Linux

[Peter M. Konka]

Hi,

I honestly don't know if you need X windows to runb the VM Ware 
application...  That would be a good question to ask Janina.

--- Peter

At 10:28 PM 8/27/01 -0500, you wrote:
>Don't you need to use x for vmware?
>Greg
>
>
>On Mon, Aug 27, 2001 at 05:57:32PM -0400, Peter M. Konka wrote:
> > Shaun,
> >
> >          Before I installed Linux on my laptop, i had the same question in
> > my head.  Will there be any possible chance that I can install Windows
> > applications under my Linux machine.  The answer is yes.  You can install
> > windows applications under linux.  I'm not sure exactly how to do it, 
> but i
> > do know that you need a Windows emulator called VM Ware.
> >
> >          Now, the person you should speak to about this is Janina, she
> > explained this to me before.
> >
> >          From my understanding about this Windows eumlator, it basically
> > turns Linux into windows, and allows you to install any windows
> > applications or drivers.
> >
> >          At the moment, i installed Linux on my brand new Toshiba
> > laptop.  I am running Linux on  a dual boot on this laptop, because
> > I  wasn't sure if my drivers or hardare rather would be compatible at
> > all...  I heard a lot of good things about linux, and if i learn how to 
> use
> > it, i am thinking of switching from Windows to linux on this machine.  And
> > I have other 2 machines at home and work, which the one at work I am
> > thinking of backing up my information and formatting the drive clean and
> > isntalling Linux as the only operating syste.  And I will also do that on
> > one of the systems at home.
> >
> > I will keep a Windows machine just in case.  But i have a feeling that
> > linux will become my new favorite operating system other then dos.
> >
> > --- Peter
> >
> > At 11:28 PM 8/25/01 +1000, you wrote:
> > >I've been following this thread for a while. and haven't decided to say
> > >something until now.
> > >I'm of the oppinion that linux as an operating system accessable to the
> > >blind, is streets ahead of it's comercial counterparts.
> > >I say this because as a user of both operating systems, I can see the 
> place
> > >for both of them. I find that windows in a normal office environment is a
> > >very powerful tool indeed. However, if I could have the power of linux and
> > >the ease of use of windows all rolled into one, I'd be a very happy 
> camper.
> > >I mean I'd like the nice frilly bits of microsoft word and excell and all
> > >that but right at the moment, I haven't seen gpl console versions of 
> either.
> > >Linux is a great workhorse especially if you want to run it as a 
> server box
> > >or as a firewall, but I want the durrability of linux with the ease of use
> > >of windows but I guess for now I'll just have to learn how to use linux to
> > >it's full potential.
> > >Don't get me wrong here, I'm not complaining, just stating how I feel 
> on the
> > >whole issue.
> > >Shaun..
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >------------------------------------
> > >Make Unlimited phone calls from your PC to ANY phone in the World!
> > >http://www.eboom.com/free/
> > >----- Original Message -----
> > >From: "Charles Hallenbeck" <chuckh@mhonline.net>
> > >To: <speakup@braille.uwo.ca>
> > >Sent: Saturday, August 25, 2001 10:59 PM
> > >Subject: Re: Hewlet Packard and Linux
> > >
> > >
> > > > Charlie and all -
> > > >
> > > > Your remarks about DOS are interesting - I was a DOS fan too and 
> actually
> > > > never moved to Windows, except to support my Arkenstone Open Book 
> Unbound
> > > > software. My machine is presently a dual boot machine so I can se 
> Linux to
> > > > get work done or else at boot time select DOS (I use the Caldera
> > > > OpenDOS) to use my scanner software and one or two other legacy apps.
> > > >
> > > > If you remember when DOS was introduced in the early 80s, version 
> 1.X was
> > > > a lot like CP/M; as it was revised to 2.X and then 3.X, it gradually
> > > > became a lot more like Unix than CP/M, with a hierarchical file system,
> > > > batch files, and then later versions even had online help.
> > > >
> > > > Now that should tell you something: namely, that Unix was a mature
> > > > standard for text consoles even in the early 80s when DOS was being 
> forged
> > > > in Redmond. Linux of course is an Open Source and contemporary
> > > > implementation of Unix, and is therefore a decade ahead of the game
> > > > compared to DOS.
> > > >
> > > > Linux is also a fundamentally dual personality system, with its GUI 
> being
> > > > a robust add-on to the underlying text based console system.
> > > >
> > > > Linux was created as Open Source on the internet and is maintained and
> > > > developed there. It is a fundamental mistake to think of it in the same
> > > > market terms as the other major OS. Of course there is no market 
> for Linux
> > > > accessibility solutions. But there are users and there is need, and 
> that
> > > > need is being met by and large without benefit of market concepts.
> > > >
> > > > How do people make a living in the Open Source world? By selling 
> services,
> > > > not products. Products in the Open Source world are organic things. 
> They
> > > > take root, they grow, they live or die on their merits, and they 
> both give
> > > > to and take from their users. There would be no Speakup if it were
> > > > conceived on a marketing model of accessibility solutions,  trust me on
> > > > that one.
> > > >
> > > > So - don't worry about Linux, it is in there for the long haul.
> > > >
> > > > I was recently tempted to spring for a preinstalled Linux system when I
> > > > last upgraded, but opted for the "rolling my own" solution. I am 
> convinced
> > > > that if I had plunked down for a package deal I would have ended up
> > > > overhauling it anyway.
> > > >
> > > > Will Linux ever be a mass market product suitable for the people 
> who check
> > > > their email once a week and want their machine to do what they 
> want, and
> > > > not what they say? Probably not. There may always be a niche for a
> > > > Windows-type OS with its closely guarded secrets and predatory 
> practices,
> > > > with all the insides protected from meddling users and all the decision
> > > > details already made for them.
> > > >
> > > > Best regards - and welcome to the list!
> > > >
> > > > Chuck
> > > >
> > > >
> > > > Visit me at http://www.mhonline.net/~chuckh
> > > > The Moon is Waxing Crescent (46% of Full)
> > > >
> > > >
> > > > _______________________________________________
> > > > Speakup mailing list
> > > > Speakup@braille.uwo.ca
> > > > http://speech.braille.uwo.ca/mailman/listinfo/speakup
> > > >
> > > >
> > >
> > >
> > >_______________________________________________
> > >Speakup mailing list
> > >Speakup@braille.uwo.ca
> > >http://speech.braille.uwo.ca/mailman/listinfo/speakup
> >
> >
> > _______________________________________________
> > Speakup mailing list
> > Speakup@braille.uwo.ca
> > http://speech.braille.uwo.ca/mailman/listinfo/speakup
>
>_______________________________________________
>Speakup mailing list
>Speakup@braille.uwo.ca
>http://speech.braille.uwo.ca/mailman/listinfo/speakup

Re: Hewlet Packard and Linux

[Ann Parsons]

Hi all,

Great post, nice reasoning!

Ann P.

-- 
			Ann K. Parsons  
email:  akp@eznet.net 			ICQ Number:  33006854
WEB SITE:  http://home.eznet.net/~akp
"All that is gold does not glitter.  Not all those who wander are lost."  JRRT

downfall of the command prompt

[Kirk Wood]

I really doubt you will find the command prompt disappear from
linux. First, you need to understand the nature of X and how most major
programs have been written. But you also need to understand the psychie of
the programers.

I will actually start by pointing out that many (maybe most) of the linux
world programers LIKE the command promt. They can get many jobs done uick
and easy at the prompt by using shell commands.

But then you get to the architecture. X encourages a split architecture
and conforms to this itself. When you realize that you can actually use X
to control another machine (like telnet) you start to understand. There is
the display part, and the work part. This allows great flexibility and has
given rise to programs that run on the command line yet control an X app.

Then you get into many great apps that you will only find on the command
line. I know of only one program in Linux to burn your CDs. The is
cdwrite. Every other app I am aware of merely controls this command line
app. There may be some complete solutions, but I am not aware of them. If
you look around you will find others.

Finally, realize that even on the Mac OS, you can now controll the thing
at the prompt. This is the Unix way.

=======
Kirk Wood
Cpt.Kirk@1tree.net

The mind is like a parachute; it works much better when open.
If you're too open minded, your brains will fall out.

Re: Hewlet Packard and Linux

[Janina Sajka]

Charley:

It really is different in linux, not so much because it's linux, though
that helps a lot, but more because it's open source. Not everything
produced for linux is open source, but the vast majority is. In fact, open
source is the ethos of the linux community. This includes X apps. So, if
there's something that needs a tweak because blind people can't use it the
way it is, we are able to make that tweak. We needn't ask permission. We
needn't beg someone else to put us in their priorities. We can simply open
the source in our favorite editor and fix the code. This kind of activity
is not frowned on, as it is in Microsoft environs, it is welcomed and
encouraged.

To learn more about this approach to software go to:

		http://www.fsf.org

Please note that major commercial entities, such as Sun Microsystems, have
bought into this approach. Check out:

	http://www.gnome.org/projects/gap
	http://www.openoffice.org

What I am about to say should not be taken personally. Over and over, we
have seen discussions such as the one currently at hand. People come to
linux from years of struggles with DOS (which is remembered fondly these
days, though it wasn't necessarily friendly either), and Windows (which we
have somewhat conquered but still leaves us unsatisfied). We are like
immigrants in a new land. Our old land didn't offer us 72 varieties of
soap at the grocery store--we were lucky to get any soap at all. So, like
immigrants who simply can't understand why there are 72 varieties of soap
on the shelf, we don't understand the variety and variability inherent in
open source environs.

Still, we come because we are unsatisfied. So, consider that your linux
experience, at the absolute worst, will be a tremendous learning
experience--like a cultural exchange. At best, it may just feel like
you've been set free in the world of information. Free at last.

What will not serve you in this new land are all the old ideas and
strategies of coping. This is not Windows, and it isn't even DOS. It's
different--very different. Those rules don't apply here. So, you will be
confused if you try to interact in the old familiar ways. What is
required, rather, is a new attitude. Suspend what you know about Windows
and DOS and learn. I know this isn't easy, but it is the path to
understanding.



On Sat, 25 Aug 2001, Charles Crawford
wrote:

> Gregory and all,
>
> 	Thanks for the note about the ability to keep the text of Linux up despite
> the growing Xwindows.  I really do hope that continues since I am a bit gun
> shy after seeing Microsoft slowly killing DOS.  As I understand it, you
> can't boot in DOS anymore and I am not even sure the apps will work in the
> new Xp.  More tragic in the DOS world is the cintinuing loss of speech
> products for the environment where older speech hardware can't even be
> installed.  So we truly have to not only see Linux for what it is now, but
> we must also make sure it remains a place for blind folks to still do our
> thing with an operating system as powerful as it is.
>
> -- charlie Crawford.
>
>
> -- charlie Crawford.
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> Speakup mailing list
> Speakup@braille.uwo.ca
> http://speech.braille.uwo.ca/mailman/listinfo/speakup
>

-- 

				Janina Sajka, Director
				Technology Research and Development
				Governmental Relations Group
				American Foundation for the Blind (AFB)

Email: janina@afb.net		Phone: (202) 408-8175

Chair, Accessibility SIG
Open Electronic Book Forum (OEBF)
http://www.openebook.org

Will electronic books surpass print books? Read our white paper,
Surpassing Gutenberg, at http://www.afb.org/ebook.asp

Download a free sample Digital Talking Book edition of Martin Luther
King Jr's inspiring "I Have A Dream" speech at
http://www.afb.org/mlkweb.asp

Learn how to make accessible software at
http://www.afb.org/accessapp.asp

Re: Hewlet Packard and Linux

[Peter M. Konka]

Janina,

         How easy is it to learn Linux?  What I mean by this is how long do 
you think it would take for a "non-Linux" user to learn the basic commands, 
and how to get around linux with screwein anything up?

-- Peter

At 10:51 AM 8/25/01 -0400, you wrote:
>Charley:
>
>It really is different in linux, not so much because it's linux, though
>that helps a lot, but more because it's open source. Not everything
>produced for linux is open source, but the vast majority is. In fact, open
>source is the ethos of the linux community. This includes X apps. So, if
>there's something that needs a tweak because blind people can't use it the
>way it is, we are able to make that tweak. We needn't ask permission. We
>needn't beg someone else to put us in their priorities. We can simply open
>the source in our favorite editor and fix the code. This kind of activity
>is not frowned on, as it is in Microsoft environs, it is welcomed and
>encouraged.
>
>To learn more about this approach to software go to:
>
>                 http://www.fsf.org
>
>Please note that major commercial entities, such as Sun Microsystems, have
>bought into this approach. Check out:
>
>         http://www.gnome.org/projects/gap
>         http://www.openoffice.org
>
>What I am about to say should not be taken personally. Over and over, we
>have seen discussions such as the one currently at hand. People come to
>linux from years of struggles with DOS (which is remembered fondly these
>days, though it wasn't necessarily friendly either), and Windows (which we
>have somewhat conquered but still leaves us unsatisfied). We are like
>immigrants in a new land. Our old land didn't offer us 72 varieties of
>soap at the grocery store--we were lucky to get any soap at all. So, like
>immigrants who simply can't understand why there are 72 varieties of soap
>on the shelf, we don't understand the variety and variability inherent in
>open source environs.
>
>Still, we come because we are unsatisfied. So, consider that your linux
>experience, at the absolute worst, will be a tremendous learning
>experience--like a cultural exchange. At best, it may just feel like
>you've been set free in the world of information. Free at last.
>
>What will not serve you in this new land are all the old ideas and
>strategies of coping. This is not Windows, and it isn't even DOS. It's
>different--very different. Those rules don't apply here. So, you will be
>confused if you try to interact in the old familiar ways. What is
>required, rather, is a new attitude. Suspend what you know about Windows
>and DOS and learn. I know this isn't easy, but it is the path to
>understanding.
>
>
>
>On Sat, 25 Aug 2001, Charles Crawford
>wrote:
>
> > Gregory and all,
> >
> >       Thanks for the note about the ability to keep the text of Linux 
> up despite
> > the growing Xwindows.  I really do hope that continues since I am a bit gun
> > shy after seeing Microsoft slowly killing DOS.  As I understand it, you
> > can't boot in DOS anymore and I am not even sure the apps will work in the
> > new Xp.  More tragic in the DOS world is the cintinuing loss of speech
> > products for the environment where older speech hardware can't even be
> > installed.  So we truly have to not only see Linux for what it is now, but
> > we must also make sure it remains a place for blind folks to still do our
> > thing with an operating system as powerful as it is.
> >
> > -- charlie Crawford.
> >
> >
> > -- charlie Crawford.
> >
> >
> > _______________________________________________
> > Speakup mailing list
> > Speakup@braille.uwo.ca
> > http://speech.braille.uwo.ca/mailman/listinfo/speakup
> >
>
>--
>
>                                 Janina Sajka, Director
>                                 Technology Research and Development
>                                 Governmental Relations Group
>                                 American Foundation for the Blind (AFB)
>
>Email: janina@afb.net           Phone: (202) 408-8175
>
>Chair, Accessibility SIG
>Open Electronic Book Forum (OEBF)
>http://www.openebook.org
>
>Will electronic books surpass print books? Read our white paper,
>Surpassing Gutenberg, at http://www.afb.org/ebook.asp
>
>Download a free sample Digital Talking Book edition of Martin Luther
>King Jr's inspiring "I Have A Dream" speech at
>http://www.afb.org/mlkweb.asp
>
>Learn how to make accessible software at
>http://www.afb.org/accessapp.asp
>
>
>_______________________________________________
>Speakup mailing list
>Speakup@braille.uwo.ca
>http://speech.braille.uwo.ca/mailman/listinfo/speakup

Re: Hewlet Packard and Linux

[Janina Sajka]

Hi, Peter:

Well, what can I tell you? I'm still learning and I doubt I'll ever know
everything there is to know. Having said that, let me try to actually be
helpful to you! <grin>

For starters, why not spend some time in the HOWTO files? I'm thinking
particularly of the HOWTO for Windows and DOS users. This particular HOWTO
is all about telling you the equivalents in linux for things you know in
Windows and DOS. Look in /usr/doc/ for a HOWTO directory.

You may also want to go to http://www.redhat.com/support -- I think I have
that right -- and get their Quick Start manuals. You can read them online
there, or download them to your computer for local access.

Patience, my new friend. Nothing worth having is gotten in a day, I think.
But, every day should bring new learning and new delights.

It was great meeting you this past weekend. I hope to see you again
sometime real soon.
 On Mon, 27 Aug
2001, Peter M. Konka wrote:

> Janina,
>
>          How easy is it to learn Linux?  What I mean by this is how long do
> you think it would take for a "non-Linux" user to learn the basic commands,
> and how to get around linux with screwein anything up?
>
> -- Peter
>
> At 10:51 AM 8/25/01 -0400, you wrote:
> >Charley:
> >
> >It really is different in linux, not so much because it's linux, though
> >that helps a lot, but more because it's open source. Not everything
> >produced for linux is open source, but the vast majority is. In fact, open
> >source is the ethos of the linux community. This includes X apps. So, if
> >there's something that needs a tweak because blind people can't use it the
> >way it is, we are able to make that tweak. We needn't ask permission. We
> >needn't beg someone else to put us in their priorities. We can simply open
> >the source in our favorite editor and fix the code. This kind of activity
> >is not frowned on, as it is in Microsoft environs, it is welcomed and
> >encouraged.
> >
> >To learn more about this approach to software go to:
> >
> >                 http://www.fsf.org
> >
> >Please note that major commercial entities, such as Sun Microsystems, have
> >bought into this approach. Check out:
> >
> >         http://www.gnome.org/projects/gap
> >         http://www.openoffice.org
> >
> >What I am about to say should not be taken personally. Over and over, we
> >have seen discussions such as the one currently at hand. People come to
> >linux from years of struggles with DOS (which is remembered fondly these
> >days, though it wasn't necessarily friendly either), and Windows (which we
> >have somewhat conquered but still leaves us unsatisfied). We are like
> >immigrants in a new land. Our old land didn't offer us 72 varieties of
> >soap at the grocery store--we were lucky to get any soap at all. So, like
> >immigrants who simply can't understand why there are 72 varieties of soap
> >on the shelf, we don't understand the variety and variability inherent in
> >open source environs.
> >
> >Still, we come because we are unsatisfied. So, consider that your linux
> >experience, at the absolute worst, will be a tremendous learning
> >experience--like a cultural exchange. At best, it may just feel like
> >you've been set free in the world of information. Free at last.
> >
> >What will not serve you in this new land are all the old ideas and
> >strategies of coping. This is not Windows, and it isn't even DOS. It's
> >different--very different. Those rules don't apply here. So, you will be
> >confused if you try to interact in the old familiar ways. What is
> >required, rather, is a new attitude. Suspend what you know about Windows
> >and DOS and learn. I know this isn't easy, but it is the path to
> >understanding.
> >
> >
> >
> >On Sat, 25 Aug 2001, Charles Crawford
> >wrote:
> >
> > > Gregory and all,
> > >
> > >       Thanks for the note about the ability to keep the text of Linux
> > up despite
> > > the growing Xwindows.  I really do hope that continues since I am a bit gun
> > > shy after seeing Microsoft slowly killing DOS.  As I understand it, you
> > > can't boot in DOS anymore and I am not even sure the apps will work in the
> > > new Xp.  More tragic in the DOS world is the cintinuing loss of speech
> > > products for the environment where older speech hardware can't even be
> > > installed.  So we truly have to not only see Linux for what it is now, but
> > > we must also make sure it remains a place for blind folks to still do our
> > > thing with an operating system as powerful as it is.
> > >
> > > -- charlie Crawford.
> > >
> > >
> > > -- charlie Crawford.
> > >
> > >
> > > _______________________________________________
> > > Speakup mailing list
> > > Speakup@braille.uwo.ca
> > > http://speech.braille.uwo.ca/mailman/listinfo/speakup
> > >
> >
> >--
> >
> >                                 Janina Sajka, Director
> >                                 Technology Research and Development
> >                                 Governmental Relations Group
> >                                 American Foundation for the Blind (AFB)
> >
> >Email: janina@afb.net           Phone: (202) 408-8175
> >
> >Chair, Accessibility SIG
> >Open Electronic Book Forum (OEBF)
> >http://www.openebook.org
> >
> >Will electronic books surpass print books? Read our white paper,
> >Surpassing Gutenberg, at http://www.afb.org/ebook.asp
> >
> >Download a free sample Digital Talking Book edition of Martin Luther
> >King Jr's inspiring "I Have A Dream" speech at
> >http://www.afb.org/mlkweb.asp
> >
> >Learn how to make accessible software at
> >http://www.afb.org/accessapp.asp
> >
> >
> >_______________________________________________
> >Speakup mailing list
> >Speakup@braille.uwo.ca
> >http://speech.braille.uwo.ca/mailman/listinfo/speakup
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> Speakup mailing list
> Speakup@braille.uwo.ca
> http://speech.braille.uwo.ca/mailman/listinfo/speakup
>

-- 

				Janina Sajka, Director
				Technology Research and Development
				Governmental Relations Group
				American Foundation for the Blind (AFB)

Email: janina@afb.net		Phone: (202) 408-8175

Chair, Accessibility SIG
Open Electronic Book Forum (OEBF)
http://www.openebook.org

Will electronic books surpass print books? Read our white paper,
Surpassing Gutenberg, at http://www.afb.org/ebook.asp

Download a free sample Digital Talking Book edition of Martin Luther
King Jr's inspiring "I Have A Dream" speech at
http://www.afb.org/mlkweb.asp

Learn how to make accessible software at
http://www.afb.org/accessapp.asp

Re: Hewlet Packard and Linux

[Ann Parsons]

Hi all,

Peter, I'm not Jannina, but judging a time factor in learning anything
is difficult.  Most school curricula are based on a general time
factor, but it depends on the individual student.

Ann P.

-- 
			Ann K. Parsons  
email:  akp@eznet.net 			ICQ Number:  33006854
WEB SITE:  http://home.eznet.net/~akp
"All that is gold does not glitter.  Not all those who wander are lost."  JRRT

Re: Hewlet Packard and Linux

[Kirk Wood]

On Fri, 24 Aug 2001, Charles Crawford wrote:
>          I think you are wise to get ahead of the game by doing the stuff 
> Linux can do without the heartaches of configure configure configure. 

You know, I have been runing linux for about 3 years. I have installed a
number of times (as I get bored and re-install everything from time to
time). And it has always been quite simple. I have tried various versions
and never found it tough to install. I really don't get what people are
talking about. If you want choices taken from you go Caldera. But
(most) every distribution has an install that works on a great number of
computers without any fuss or muss. In fact, I have had much **LESS**
trouble with linux installation then with winblows.

The screens traditionally weren't as flashy. But that isn't the case with
a Red Hat X based install. And MAndrake has had the flashy down for a long
time. Of course I supose someone could do a macroslop and remove all
options on what to install as they did for winblows 2000. Would that make
it easier?

=======
Kirk Wood
Cpt.Kirk@1tree.net

The mind is like a parachute; it works much better when open.
If you're too open minded, your brains will fall out.

Hewlet Packard and Linux

[Ann Parsons]

Hi all,

Charlie,  most HP products work in Linux.  They are a wonderful
company.

Ann P.

-- 
			Ann K. Parsons  
email:  akp@eznet.net 			ICQ Number:  33006854
WEB SITE:  http://home.eznet.net/~akp
"All that is gold does not glitter.  Not all those who wander are lost."  JRRT

Re: Alternate versions of Slackware 8.0 boot disks uploaded

[Kirk Reiser]

Okay, Joe's modified Slackware-8.0 images are exactly where he said
they'd be.

Thanx Joe

  Kirk

-- 

Kirk Reiser				The Computer Braille Facility
e-mail: kirk@braille.uwo.ca		University of Western Ontario
phone: (519) 661-3061