Dumb post to the Stargardts Facebook group

Dumb post to the Stargardts Facebook group

[Bill Cox]

I just posted the following to the Stargardts group on Facebook in response
to a post from a kid who was asked to write about what it's like to go
blind, for a publication in Canada.  She posted her opening, and asked what
we thought of it.  I found it wanting.  She said she could not see the
professor's face.  This is what I said:

For the first two years, I lived in denial. Losing central vision meant
losing my job, my house, and the ability to raise my kids. It paralyzed me
with fear, and threatened everything I cared about. Yet I was lucky. Losing
sight meant losing my ability to program, which is the skill that has
defined my value to the world. I found a blind mentor who showed me that it
is possible for the blind to be outstanding programmers. I began to
contribute to software for the blind. I worked so hard at improving such
software, that I sat too long at my computer and gave myself blood clots,
which moved to my lungs and came close to killing me. Still, I was lucky.
What is it like to slowly go blind? The world crashes down around you and
you fight dragons every day to stay alive. That's if you're lucky, like me.
For the rest, possibly the majority, I fear it may be far worse. I was
lucky in that I had the chance to build something I cared about desperately
before losing central vision. It gave me the will to overcome the
obstacles. What is it like for kids losing vision while going to college?
That's what really breaks my heart. They don't yet know what is worth
fighting for. Not seeing the professor is no big deal. How many of you
people out there with Stargartds have learned speed listening? Do you know
the potential you have, and the value of the life you will lose if you
don't fight for it? I'm lucky, because I got to build that life before
losing vision. I grieve for all the kids who will never get the chance to
know why they should fight so hard.

I don't think any of the kids out there with Stargardt's will suddenly
change their lives because of my post, but you guys, and especially Sina,
have changed my life.  Thanks for showing me that my central vision
impairment need not cripple me, and for the chance to help write the
software I need.  I am using Speech Hub, Mary TTS, and NVDA just to write
this email.  Working together, we can build great tools like Speech Hub,
and great organizations like the Accessible Computing Foundation.  We can
make a difference one vision impaired guy at a time, or at least try like
Hell.
Bill

Re: Dumb post to the Stargardts Facebook group

[acollins]

Hi Bill and all.  I think we need to keep in mind that as far as
blindness is concerned, each of us have different experiences when it
comes to learning to deal with our blindness.  Some of us get lucky, and
find ourselves in contact with people who can teach us that blindness is
not the end of the world.  Others have a more difficult time, and have
no one who can help shield them against the terrible attitudes that most
of the world has concerning blindness.  My friend Keith Watson was a
draftsman engineer, before he slowly began to lose his sight.  Like
Bill, he fortunately ran in to some of us on the Speakup list, who could
give him advice about what kind of help was available, and not allow him
to sit around feeling sorry for himself.  He went back to school, and
his company moved him over in to their ip department.  He has since gone
to work for a company monitoring the quality of accessible documents
they produce for the Social Seccurity Administration.

On the other hand, there are guys like me, who have been blind all my
life.  I went to the local state school for the blind here in Iowa. 
Then because I was just out of high school, and didn't really know what
I wanted to do with myself, I attended a one year course at our state
comission for the blind, where I learned a lot of coping skills and
attitudes that I didn't pick up when I was in school.  The upshot of it
all is that I went to tech school, got a job as a machinest, got laid
off, went to computer school, and got a job in tech support for one of
our state universities.  I worked as a machinest for ten years, and then
worked as a tech support consultant for the university for 25 years.

I think it behoves all of us to spread the word that being blind is not
the end of the world.  Is it sometimes difficult?  Yes, but so is life
in general.  The glass is either half empty, or half full.  Each of us
gets to decide individually.

Many others here could tell similar stories.

Gene Collins

>I just posted the following to the Stargardts group on Facebook in response
>to a post from a kid who was asked to write about what it's like to go
>blind, for a publication in Canada.  She posted her opening, and asked what
>we thought of it.  I found it wanting.  She said she could not see the
>professor's face.  This is what I said:
>
>For the first two years, I lived in denial. Losing central vision meant
>losing my job, my house, and the ability to raise my kids. It paralyzed me
>with fear, and threatened everything I cared about. Yet I was lucky. Losing
>sight meant losing my ability to program, which is the skill that has
>defined my value to the world. I found a blind mentor who showed me that it
>is possible for the blind to be outstanding programmers. I began to
>contribute to software for the blind. I worked so hard at improving such
>software, that I sat too long at my computer and gave myself blood clots,
>which moved to my lungs and came close to killing me. Still, I was lucky.
>What is it like to slowly go blind? The world crashes down around you and
>you fight dragons every day to stay alive. That's if you're lucky, like me.
>For the rest, possibly the majority, I fear it may be far worse. I was
>lucky in that I had the chance to build something I cared about desperately
>before losing central vision. It gave me the will to overcome the
>obstacles. What is it like for kids losing vision while going to college?
>That's what really breaks my heart. They don't yet know what is worth
>fighting for. Not seeing the professor is no big deal. How many of you
>people out there with Stargartds have learned speed listening? Do you know
>the potential you have, and the value of the life you will lose if you
>don't fight for it? I'm lucky, because I got to build that life before
>losing vision. I grieve for all the kids who will never get the chance to
>know why they should fight so hard.
>
>I don't think any of the kids out there with Stargardt's will suddenly
>change their lives because of my post, but you guys, and especially Sina,
>have changed my life.  Thanks for showing me that my central vision
>impairment need not cripple me, and for the chance to help write the
>software I need.  I am using Speech Hub, Mary TTS, and NVDA just to write
>this email.  Working together, we can build great tools like Speech Hub,
>and great organizations like the Accessible Computing Foundation.  We can
>make a difference one vision impaired guy at a time, or at least try like
>Hell.
>Bill
>_______________________________________________
>Speakup mailing list
>Speakup@linux-speakup.org
>http://linux-speakup.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/speakup

Re: Dumb post to the Stargardts Facebook group

[Bill Cox]

At one point I wanted to collaborate with Sina on a book about being blind
in the age of technology, where stories like your's and Sinas would make
excellent examples throughout the book.  Then I got busy at work, and now
I'm more busy than ever.  I still like the idea, though.

Bill


On Mon, Apr 8, 2013 at 7:17 AM, <acollins@icsmail.net> wrote:

> Hi Bill and all.  I think we need to keep in mind that as far as
> blindness is concerned, each of us have different experiences when it
> comes to learning to deal with our blindness.  Some of us get lucky, and
> find ourselves in contact with people who can teach us that blindness is
> not the end of the world.  Others have a more difficult time, and have
> no one who can help shield them against the terrible attitudes that most
> of the world has concerning blindness.  My friend Keith Watson was a
> draftsman engineer, before he slowly began to lose his sight.  Like
> Bill, he fortunately ran in to some of us on the Speakup list, who could
> give him advice about what kind of help was available, and not allow him
> to sit around feeling sorry for himself.  He went back to school, and
> his company moved him over in to their ip department.  He has since gone
> to work for a company monitoring the quality of accessible documents
> they produce for the Social Seccurity Administration.
>
> On the other hand, there are guys like me, who have been blind all my
> life.  I went to the local state school for the blind here in Iowa.
> Then because I was just out of high school, and didn't really know what
> I wanted to do with myself, I attended a one year course at our state
> comission for the blind, where I learned a lot of coping skills and
> attitudes that I didn't pick up when I was in school.  The upshot of it
> all is that I went to tech school, got a job as a machinest, got laid
> off, went to computer school, and got a job in tech support for one of
> our state universities.  I worked as a machinest for ten years, and then
> worked as a tech support consultant for the university for 25 years.
>
> I think it behoves all of us to spread the word that being blind is not
> the end of the world.  Is it sometimes difficult?  Yes, but so is life
> in general.  The glass is either half empty, or half full.  Each of us
> gets to decide individually.
>
> Many others here could tell similar stories.
>
> Gene Collins
>
> >I just posted the following to the Stargardts group on Facebook in
> response
> >to a post from a kid who was asked to write about what it's like to go
> >blind, for a publication in Canada.  She posted her opening, and asked
> what
> >we thought of it.  I found it wanting.  She said she could not see the
> >professor's face.  This is what I said:
> >
> >For the first two years, I lived in denial. Losing central vision meant
> >losing my job, my house, and the ability to raise my kids. It paralyzed me
> >with fear, and threatened everything I cared about. Yet I was lucky.
> Losing
> >sight meant losing my ability to program, which is the skill that has
> >defined my value to the world. I found a blind mentor who showed me that
> it
> >is possible for the blind to be outstanding programmers. I began to
> >contribute to software for the blind. I worked so hard at improving such
> >software, that I sat too long at my computer and gave myself blood clots,
> >which moved to my lungs and came close to killing me. Still, I was lucky.
> >What is it like to slowly go blind? The world crashes down around you and
> >you fight dragons every day to stay alive. That's if you're lucky, like
> me.
> >For the rest, possibly the majority, I fear it may be far worse. I was
> >lucky in that I had the chance to build something I cared about
> desperately
> >before losing central vision. It gave me the will to overcome the
> >obstacles. What is it like for kids losing vision while going to college?
> >That's what really breaks my heart. They don't yet know what is worth
> >fighting for. Not seeing the professor is no big deal. How many of you
> >people out there with Stargartds have learned speed listening? Do you know
> >the potential you have, and the value of the life you will lose if you
> >don't fight for it? I'm lucky, because I got to build that life before
> >losing vision. I grieve for all the kids who will never get the chance to
> >know why they should fight so hard.
> >
> >I don't think any of the kids out there with Stargardt's will suddenly
> >change their lives because of my post, but you guys, and especially Sina,
> >have changed my life.  Thanks for showing me that my central vision
> >impairment need not cripple me, and for the chance to help write the
> >software I need.  I am using Speech Hub, Mary TTS, and NVDA just to write
> >this email.  Working together, we can build great tools like Speech Hub,
> >and great organizations like the Accessible Computing Foundation.  We can
> >make a difference one vision impaired guy at a time, or at least try like
> >Hell.
> >Bill
> >_______________________________________________
> >Speakup mailing list
> >Speakup@linux-speakup.org
> >http://linux-speakup.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/speakup
> _______________________________________________
> Speakup mailing list
> Speakup@linux-speakup.org
> http://linux-speakup.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/speakup
>

Re: Dumb post to the Stargardts Facebook group

[acollins]

Well, it's an interesting idea.  Maybe you could get some others here to
contribute their stories and experiences.  If you think what I wrote to
the list would help, feel free to use it.  If you do, I think you should
either get my friend Keith's permission, or delete his name from what I
wrote.

Maybe you could give the book an interesting title, like "Blindness, The
Challenge, and The Experience".


>At one point I wanted to collaborate with Sina on a book about being blind
>in the age of technology, where stories like your's and Sinas would make
>excellent examples throughout the book.  Then I got busy at work, and now
>I'm more busy than ever.  I still like the idea, though.
>
>Bill
>
>
>On Mon, Apr 8, 2013 at 7:17 AM, <acollins@icsmail.net> wrote:
>
>> Hi Bill and all.  I think we need to keep in mind that as far as
>> blindness is concerned, each of us have different experiences when it
>> comes to learning to deal with our blindness.  Some of us get lucky, and
>> find ourselves in contact with people who can teach us that blindness is
>> not the end of the world.  Others have a more difficult time, and have
>> no one who can help shield them against the terrible attitudes that most
>> of the world has concerning blindness.  My friend Keith Watson was a
>> draftsman engineer, before he slowly began to lose his sight.  Like
>> Bill, he fortunately ran in to some of us on the Speakup list, who could
>> give him advice about what kind of help was available, and not allow him
>> to sit around feeling sorry for himself.  He went back to school, and
>> his company moved him over in to their ip department.  He has since gone
>> to work for a company monitoring the quality of accessible documents
>> they produce for the Social Seccurity Administration.
>>
>> On the other hand, there are guys like me, who have been blind all my
>> life.  I went to the local state school for the blind here in Iowa.
>> Then because I was just out of high school, and didn't really know what
>> I wanted to do with myself, I attended a one year course at our state
>> comission for the blind, where I learned a lot of coping skills and
>> attitudes that I didn't pick up when I was in school.  The upshot of it
>> all is that I went to tech school, got a job as a machinest, got laid
>> off, went to computer school, and got a job in tech support for one of
>> our state universities.  I worked as a machinest for ten years, and then
>> worked as a tech support consultant for the university for 25 years.
>>
>> I think it behoves all of us to spread the word that being blind is not
>> the end of the world.  Is it sometimes difficult?  Yes, but so is life
>> in general.  The glass is either half empty, or half full.  Each of us
>> gets to decide individually.
>>
>> Many others here could tell similar stories.
>>
>> Gene Collins
>>
>> >I just posted the following to the Stargardts group on Facebook in
>> response
>> >to a post from a kid who was asked to write about what it's like to go
>> >blind, for a publication in Canada.  She posted her opening, and asked
>> what
>> >we thought of it.  I found it wanting.  She said she could not see the
>> >professor's face.  This is what I said:
>> >
>> >For the first two years, I lived in denial. Losing central vision meant
>> >losing my job, my house, and the ability to raise my kids. It paralyzed me
>> >with fear, and threatened everything I cared about. Yet I was lucky.
>> Losing
>> >sight meant losing my ability to program, which is the skill that has
>> >defined my value to the world. I found a blind mentor who showed me that
>> it
>> >is possible for the blind to be outstanding programmers. I began to
>> >contribute to software for the blind. I worked so hard at improving such
>> >software, that I sat too long at my computer and gave myself blood clots,
>> >which moved to my lungs and came close to killing me. Still, I was lucky.
>> >What is it like to slowly go blind? The world crashes down around you and
>> >you fight dragons every day to stay alive. That's if you're lucky, like
>> me.
>> >For the rest, possibly the majority, I fear it may be far worse. I was
>> >lucky in that I had the chance to build something I cared about
>> desperately
>> >before losing central vision. It gave me the will to overcome the
>> >obstacles. What is it like for kids losing vision while going to college?
>> >That's what really breaks my heart. They don't yet know what is worth
>> >fighting for. Not seeing the professor is no big deal. How many of you
>> >people out there with Stargartds have learned speed listening? Do you know
>> >the potential you have, and the value of the life you will lose if you
>> >don't fight for it? I'm lucky, because I got to build that life before
>> >losing vision. I grieve for all the kids who will never get the chance to
>> >know why they should fight so hard.
>> >
>> >I don't think any of the kids out there with Stargardt's will suddenly
>> >change their lives because of my post, but you guys, and especially Sina,
>> >have changed my life.  Thanks for showing me that my central vision
>> >impairment need not cripple me, and for the chance to help write the
>> >software I need.  I am using Speech Hub, Mary TTS, and NVDA just to write
>> >this email.  Working together, we can build great tools like Speech Hub,
>> >and great organizations like the Accessible Computing Foundation.  We can
>> >make a difference one vision impaired guy at a time, or at least try like
>> >Hell.
>> >Bill
>> >_______________________________________________
>> >Speakup mailing list
>> >Speakup@linux-speakup.org
>> >http://linux-speakup.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/speakup
>> _______________________________________________
>> Speakup mailing list
>> Speakup@linux-speakup.org
>> http://linux-speakup.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/speakup
>>
>_______________________________________________
>Speakup mailing list
>Speakup@linux-speakup.org
>http://linux-speakup.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/speakup

Re: Dumb post to the Stargardts Facebook group

[Bill Cox]

Sorry, guys!  If I were fully blind, I would not make mistakes like sending
that email last night to the SpeakUp group.  I meant it to go to a friend
who's name started with S, and SpeakUp looks pretty close!  I hope it did
not offend anyone on the SpeakUp list.  The guys on the Stargardt Facebook
group could use some prodding to get them to go learn how to use programs
like SpeakUp, so now and then I make a post like that.  The funny thing is
I find that people like me with only central vision sometimes have worse
outcomes than people like most of you, who are fully blind.  You guys all
learned amazing talents like learning how to use Linux through SpeakUp.
When people have sight, and slowly lose some of it, the typical situation I
see is that they don't change or adapt much.  Instead of learning to listen
at high speed, they simply read less, and stop using computers much.  So, I
try on the Stargardt list now and then to motivate some of them to get off
their butts and change their lives to deal with vision loss, but unlike
becoming fully blind, it's possible to simply ignore central vision loss,
and never adapt.  I have one good friend who has chosen to remain on
permanent disability.  When I see blind guys working so hard to have
careers, it makes me very sad to see these people with Stargardts or
Macular Degeneration giving up.

Bill


On Mon, Apr 8, 2013 at 7:17 AM, <acollins@icsmail.net> wrote:

> Hi Bill and all.  I think we need to keep in mind that as far as
> blindness is concerned, each of us have different experiences when it
> comes to learning to deal with our blindness.  Some of us get lucky, and
> find ourselves in contact with people who can teach us that blindness is
> not the end of the world.  Others have a more difficult time, and have
> no one who can help shield them against the terrible attitudes that most
> of the world has concerning blindness.  My friend Keith Watson was a
> draftsman engineer, before he slowly began to lose his sight.  Like
> Bill, he fortunately ran in to some of us on the Speakup list, who could
> give him advice about what kind of help was available, and not allow him
> to sit around feeling sorry for himself.  He went back to school, and
> his company moved him over in to their ip department.  He has since gone
> to work for a company monitoring the quality of accessible documents
> they produce for the Social Seccurity Administration.
>
> On the other hand, there are guys like me, who have been blind all my
> life.  I went to the local state school for the blind here in Iowa.
> Then because I was just out of high school, and didn't really know what
> I wanted to do with myself, I attended a one year course at our state
> comission for the blind, where I learned a lot of coping skills and
> attitudes that I didn't pick up when I was in school.  The upshot of it
> all is that I went to tech school, got a job as a machinest, got laid
> off, went to computer school, and got a job in tech support for one of
> our state universities.  I worked as a machinest for ten years, and then
> worked as a tech support consultant for the university for 25 years.
>
> I think it behoves all of us to spread the word that being blind is not
> the end of the world.  Is it sometimes difficult?  Yes, but so is life
> in general.  The glass is either half empty, or half full.  Each of us
> gets to decide individually.
>
> Many others here could tell similar stories.
>
> Gene Collins
>
> >I just posted the following to the Stargardts group on Facebook in
> response
> >to a post from a kid who was asked to write about what it's like to go
> >blind, for a publication in Canada.  She posted her opening, and asked
> what
> >we thought of it.  I found it wanting.  She said she could not see the
> >professor's face.  This is what I said:
> >
> >For the first two years, I lived in denial. Losing central vision meant
> >losing my job, my house, and the ability to raise my kids. It paralyzed me
> >with fear, and threatened everything I cared about. Yet I was lucky.
> Losing
> >sight meant losing my ability to program, which is the skill that has
> >defined my value to the world. I found a blind mentor who showed me that
> it
> >is possible for the blind to be outstanding programmers. I began to
> >contribute to software for the blind. I worked so hard at improving such
> >software, that I sat too long at my computer and gave myself blood clots,
> >which moved to my lungs and came close to killing me. Still, I was lucky.
> >What is it like to slowly go blind? The world crashes down around you and
> >you fight dragons every day to stay alive. That's if you're lucky, like
> me.
> >For the rest, possibly the majority, I fear it may be far worse. I was
> >lucky in that I had the chance to build something I cared about
> desperately
> >before losing central vision. It gave me the will to overcome the
> >obstacles. What is it like for kids losing vision while going to college?
> >That's what really breaks my heart. They don't yet know what is worth
> >fighting for. Not seeing the professor is no big deal. How many of you
> >people out there with Stargartds have learned speed listening? Do you know
> >the potential you have, and the value of the life you will lose if you
> >don't fight for it? I'm lucky, because I got to build that life before
> >losing vision. I grieve for all the kids who will never get the chance to
> >know why they should fight so hard.
> >
> >I don't think any of the kids out there with Stargardt's will suddenly
> >change their lives because of my post, but you guys, and especially Sina,
> >have changed my life.  Thanks for showing me that my central vision
> >impairment need not cripple me, and for the chance to help write the
> >software I need.  I am using Speech Hub, Mary TTS, and NVDA just to write
> >this email.  Working together, we can build great tools like Speech Hub,
> >and great organizations like the Accessible Computing Foundation.  We can
> >make a difference one vision impaired guy at a time, or at least try like
> >Hell.
> >Bill
> >_______________________________________________
> >Speakup mailing list
> >Speakup@linux-speakup.org
> >http://linux-speakup.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/speakup
> _______________________________________________
> Speakup mailing list
> Speakup@linux-speakup.org
> http://linux-speakup.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/speakup
>

Re: Dumb post to the Stargardts Facebook group

[acollins]

No problem Bill, I don't think you offended any one by your post.  Not
every one here is totally blind.  The trick is to recognize that one has
a problem, and then find a solution that works.  Sometimes it's as
simple as having someone point out the solution, and sometimes it takes
professional intervention to rearrange a persons ideas about what is
possible.  What I said about the glass either being half empty, or half
full, really is a function of ones attitude towards life.  sometimes
folks let the curves life throws them discourage them, and they simply
give up, and sometimes the problems get their back up, and they come out
swinging, so to speak.  Either way, it's all a matter of attitude, and
personal choice.

>Sorry, guys!  If I were fully blind, I would not make mistakes like sending
>that email last night to the SpeakUp group.  I meant it to go to a friend
>who's name started with S, and SpeakUp looks pretty close!  I hope it did
>not offend anyone on the SpeakUp list.  The guys on the Stargardt Facebook
>group could use some prodding to get them to go learn how to use programs
>like SpeakUp, so now and then I make a post like that.  The funny thing is
>I find that people like me with only central vision sometimes have worse
>outcomes than people like most of you, who are fully blind.  You guys all
>learned amazing talents like learning how to use Linux through SpeakUp.
>When people have sight, and slowly lose some of it, the typical situation I
>see is that they don't change or adapt much.  Instead of learning to listen
>at high speed, they simply read less, and stop using computers much.  So, I
>try on the Stargardt list now and then to motivate some of them to get off
>their butts and change their lives to deal with vision loss, but unlike
>becoming fully blind, it's possible to simply ignore central vision loss,
>and never adapt.  I have one good friend who has chosen to remain on
>permanent disability.  When I see blind guys working so hard to have
>careers, it makes me very sad to see these people with Stargardts or
>Macular Degeneration giving up.
>
>Bill
>
>
>On Mon, Apr 8, 2013 at 7:17 AM, <acollins@icsmail.net> wrote:
>
>> Hi Bill and all.  I think we need to keep in mind that as far as
>> blindness is concerned, each of us have different experiences when it
>> comes to learning to deal with our blindness.  Some of us get lucky, and
>> find ourselves in contact with people who can teach us that blindness is
>> not the end of the world.  Others have a more difficult time, and have
>> no one who can help shield them against the terrible attitudes that most
>> of the world has concerning blindness.  My friend Keith Watson was a
>> draftsman engineer, before he slowly began to lose his sight.  Like
>> Bill, he fortunately ran in to some of us on the Speakup list, who could
>> give him advice about what kind of help was available, and not allow him
>> to sit around feeling sorry for himself.  He went back to school, and
>> his company moved him over in to their ip department.  He has since gone
>> to work for a company monitoring the quality of accessible documents
>> they produce for the Social Seccurity Administration.
>>
>> On the other hand, there are guys like me, who have been blind all my
>> life.  I went to the local state school for the blind here in Iowa.
>> Then because I was just out of high school, and didn't really know what
>> I wanted to do with myself, I attended a one year course at our state
>> comission for the blind, where I learned a lot of coping skills and
>> attitudes that I didn't pick up when I was in school.  The upshot of it
>> all is that I went to tech school, got a job as a machinest, got laid
>> off, went to computer school, and got a job in tech support for one of
>> our state universities.  I worked as a machinest for ten years, and then
>> worked as a tech support consultant for the university for 25 years.
>>
>> I think it behoves all of us to spread the word that being blind is not
>> the end of the world.  Is it sometimes difficult?  Yes, but so is life
>> in general.  The glass is either half empty, or half full.  Each of us
>> gets to decide individually.
>>
>> Many others here could tell similar stories.
>>
>> Gene Collins
>>
>> >I just posted the following to the Stargardts group on Facebook in
>> response
>> >to a post from a kid who was asked to write about what it's like to go
>> >blind, for a publication in Canada.  She posted her opening, and asked
>> what
>> >we thought of it.  I found it wanting.  She said she could not see the
>> >professor's face.  This is what I said:
>> >
>> >For the first two years, I lived in denial. Losing central vision meant
>> >losing my job, my house, and the ability to raise my kids. It paralyzed me
>> >with fear, and threatened everything I cared about. Yet I was lucky.
>> Losing
>> >sight meant losing my ability to program, which is the skill that has
>> >defined my value to the world. I found a blind mentor who showed me that
>> it
>> >is possible for the blind to be outstanding programmers. I began to
>> >contribute to software for the blind. I worked so hard at improving such
>> >software, that I sat too long at my computer and gave myself blood clots,
>> >which moved to my lungs and came close to killing me. Still, I was lucky.
>> >What is it like to slowly go blind? The world crashes down around you and
>> >you fight dragons every day to stay alive. That's if you're lucky, like
>> me.
>> >For the rest, possibly the majority, I fear it may be far worse. I was
>> >lucky in that I had the chance to build something I cared about
>> desperately
>> >before losing central vision. It gave me the will to overcome the
>> >obstacles. What is it like for kids losing vision while going to college?
>> >That's what really breaks my heart. They don't yet know what is worth
>> >fighting for. Not seeing the professor is no big deal. How many of you
>> >people out there with Stargartds have learned speed listening? Do you know
>> >the potential you have, and the value of the life you will lose if you
>> >don't fight for it? I'm lucky, because I got to build that life before
>> >losing vision. I grieve for all the kids who will never get the chance to
>> >know why they should fight so hard.
>> >
>> >I don't think any of the kids out there with Stargardt's will suddenly
>> >change their lives because of my post, but you guys, and especially Sina,
>> >have changed my life.  Thanks for showing me that my central vision
>> >impairment need not cripple me, and for the chance to help write the
>> >software I need.  I am using Speech Hub, Mary TTS, and NVDA just to write
>> >this email.  Working together, we can build great tools like Speech Hub,
>> >and great organizations like the Accessible Computing Foundation.  We can
>> >make a difference one vision impaired guy at a time, or at least try like
>> >Hell.
>> >Bill
>> >_______________________________________________
>> >Speakup mailing list
>> >Speakup@linux-speakup.org
>> >http://linux-speakup.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/speakup
>> _______________________________________________
>> Speakup mailing list
>> Speakup@linux-speakup.org
>> http://linux-speakup.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/speakup
>>
>_______________________________________________
>Speakup mailing list
>Speakup@linux-speakup.org
>http://linux-speakup.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/speakup

RE: Dumb post to the Stargardts Facebook group

[Don Raikes]

Hi all,

Just wanted to throw my 2 cents in.

I went blind at the age  of 8 years old due to  a sinus infection that went untereated.

I went to our state school for the blind for 3rd - 5th grades and was then mainstreamed into the public schools.

Due to religious beliefs my parents never really accepted my blindness, but were supportive of anything I tried.

In highschool I was not only in the top 20 in my class of 600, but marched in the marching band, and was introduced to computers there.

I went to college got my B.S. in management information systems, and have been working in the computer industry since then.  I have worked for small companies (3-20 employees) and huge ones (10,000-100,000 employees).

Now at age 52, I am enrolling in a masters program to get my degree in cyber security (pending acceptance of my application).

I have had the good fortune of being able to work from home for the last almost 20 years, although I spent the first 12 years of my work life actually going into the workplace.  

I have had to break down a lot of barriers in my 30 years of working.  I was one of Oracle's first full-time telecommutor employees, but that has worked well especially since my customer base has been world-wide.

Sure I get frustrated when my screenreader(s) don't cooperate and I can't do my work, but eventually I find a solution and things get back to normal.

Now on to whatever hardware/software challenge lies ahead for me!

-----Original Message-----
From: Bill Cox [mailto:waywardgeek@gmail.com] 
Sent: Monday, April 08, 2013 9:05 AM
To: Speakup is a screen review system for Linux.
Subject: Re: Dumb post to the Stargardts Facebook group

At one point I wanted to collaborate with Sina on a book about being blind in the age of technology, where stories like your's and Sinas would make excellent examples throughout the book.  Then I got busy at work, and now I'm more busy than ever.  I still like the idea, though.

Bill


On Mon, Apr 8, 2013 at 7:17 AM, <acollins@icsmail.net> wrote:

> Hi Bill and all.  I think we need to keep in mind that as far as 
> blindness is concerned, each of us have different experiences when it 
> comes to learning to deal with our blindness.  Some of us get lucky, 
> and find ourselves in contact with people who can teach us that 
> blindness is not the end of the world.  Others have a more difficult 
> time, and have no one who can help shield them against the terrible 
> attitudes that most of the world has concerning blindness.  My friend 
> Keith Watson was a draftsman engineer, before he slowly began to lose 
> his sight.  Like Bill, he fortunately ran in to some of us on the 
> Speakup list, who could give him advice about what kind of help was 
> available, and not allow him to sit around feeling sorry for himself.  
> He went back to school, and his company moved him over in to their ip 
> department.  He has since gone to work for a company monitoring the 
> quality of accessible documents they produce for the Social Seccurity Administration.
>
> On the other hand, there are guys like me, who have been blind all my 
> life.  I went to the local state school for the blind here in Iowa.
> Then because I was just out of high school, and didn't really know 
> what I wanted to do with myself, I attended a one year course at our 
> state comission for the blind, where I learned a lot of coping skills 
> and attitudes that I didn't pick up when I was in school.  The upshot 
> of it all is that I went to tech school, got a job as a machinest, got 
> laid off, went to computer school, and got a job in tech support for 
> one of our state universities.  I worked as a machinest for ten years, 
> and then worked as a tech support consultant for the university for 25 years.
>
> I think it behoves all of us to spread the word that being blind is 
> not the end of the world.  Is it sometimes difficult?  Yes, but so is 
> life in general.  The glass is either half empty, or half full.  Each 
> of us gets to decide individually.
>
> Many others here could tell similar stories.
>
> Gene Collins
>
> >I just posted the following to the Stargardts group on Facebook in
> response
> >to a post from a kid who was asked to write about what it's like to 
> >go blind, for a publication in Canada.  She posted her opening, and 
> >asked
> what
> >we thought of it.  I found it wanting.  She said she could not see 
> >the professor's face.  This is what I said:
> >
> >For the first two years, I lived in denial. Losing central vision 
> >meant losing my job, my house, and the ability to raise my kids. It 
> >paralyzed me with fear, and threatened everything I cared about. Yet I was lucky.
> Losing
> >sight meant losing my ability to program, which is the skill that has 
> >defined my value to the world. I found a blind mentor who showed me 
> >that
> it
> >is possible for the blind to be outstanding programmers. I began to 
> >contribute to software for the blind. I worked so hard at improving 
> >such software, that I sat too long at my computer and gave myself 
> >blood clots, which moved to my lungs and came close to killing me. Still, I was lucky.
> >What is it like to slowly go blind? The world crashes down around you 
> >and you fight dragons every day to stay alive. That's if you're 
> >lucky, like
> me.
> >For the rest, possibly the majority, I fear it may be far worse. I 
> >was lucky in that I had the chance to build something I cared about
> desperately
> >before losing central vision. It gave me the will to overcome the 
> >obstacles. What is it like for kids losing vision while going to college?
> >That's what really breaks my heart. They don't yet know what is worth 
> >fighting for. Not seeing the professor is no big deal. How many of 
> >you people out there with Stargartds have learned speed listening? Do 
> >you know the potential you have, and the value of the life you will 
> >lose if you don't fight for it? I'm lucky, because I got to build 
> >that life before losing vision. I grieve for all the kids who will 
> >never get the chance to know why they should fight so hard.
> >
> >I don't think any of the kids out there with Stargardt's will 
> >suddenly change their lives because of my post, but you guys, and 
> >especially Sina, have changed my life.  Thanks for showing me that my 
> >central vision impairment need not cripple me, and for the chance to 
> >help write the software I need.  I am using Speech Hub, Mary TTS, and 
> >NVDA just to write this email.  Working together, we can build great 
> >tools like Speech Hub, and great organizations like the Accessible 
> >Computing Foundation.  We can make a difference one vision impaired 
> >guy at a time, or at least try like Hell.
> >Bill
> >_______________________________________________
> >Speakup mailing list
> >Speakup@linux-speakup.org
> >http://linux-speakup.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/speakup
> _______________________________________________
> Speakup mailing list
> Speakup@linux-speakup.org
> http://linux-speakup.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/speakup
>
_______________________________________________
Speakup mailing list
Speakup@linux-speakup.org
http://linux-speakup.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/speakup

Re: Dumb post to the Stargardts Facebook group

[Jason White]

Bill Cox  <speakup@linux-speakup.org> wrote:
>At one point I wanted to collaborate with Sina on a book about being blind
>in the age of technology, where stories like your's and Sinas would make
>excellent examples throughout the book.  Then I got busy at work, and now
>I'm more busy than ever.  I still like the idea, though.

I'm sure you can find wonderfully inspiring people, such as those who have
already contributed to this thread, to share their experiences for the book.

Here's a brief personal account, for what it is worth. I am very fortunate
never to have undergone the experience of losing sight: I simply didn't have
it in the first place. I divided my time between the local school for the
blind and a good private school chosen by my family, switching full time to
the latter after the primary years. I was also active in music at the time; a
highlight of those years was the opportunity to travel to Europe as a
violinist in a chamber orchestra. (Visiting the then divided Berlin shortly
before the collapse of the east German regime is an experience that I shall
always remember.)

I completed secondary school with sufficiently good results to enter a
combined Arts/Law degree program at university. My first year of university
also entailed discovering UNIX, the Internet, and becoming an observer in a
group known as the International Committee for Accessible Document Design
(ICADD), which was developing Document Type Definitions and a transformation
technique to enable publishers to make books accessible to people with
disabilities. I started reading all of the papers I could acquire related to
accessibility research. Four years later I entered the Honours program in
Philosophy, a subject in which I had become deeply interested. At this point,
the World Wide Web was also expanding rapidly, and I was invited into the
inaugural W3C Web Accessibility Initiative Working Group, the beginning of
what unexpectedly became quite a career in Web accessibility standard-setting
work that I continued while studying law school subjects in subsequent years.
The W3C work involved negotiating technical standards as well as editorial and
administrative responsibilities, notably as Co-Chair of the Web Content
Accessibility Guidelines working group from 2000-2004 during the development
of WCAG 2.0. It was all highly enjoyable and engaging, with superb people
involved and a lot of work to be done. I contributed to technical work in the
Daisy Consortium as well, principally associated with Daisy 3.0.

Having completed law school, specializing in public law (international law,
human rights, Constitutional interpretation), it was time to pursue my
childhood dream and embark upon a Ph.D. I chose a topic in philosophy, more
specifically in contemporary analytic semantics of natural language, that was
relevant to both my interests in public law and moral philosophy and to my
Web-related work. Unfortunately, it wasn't possible to keep up with the
workload attached to my Web accessibility responsibilities while focusing on
research toward a Ph.D., so I had to set aside my W3C commitments entirely,
just to concentrate on research and thesis/dissertation writing.
Notwithstanding the difficulties along the way, I ultimately graduated with
the Ph.D., and have since returned to more Web accessibility work. I am also
attempting the academic publishing process while looking for the next research
opportunity and pursuing a number of smaller projects, with an intention to
contribute at both a theoretical and practical level to issues of human
rights, social justice and of course accessibility as a special case of the
above.

That's rather long as a summary but it covers the essential points.

Re: Dumb post to the Stargardts Facebook group

[Bill Cox]

Hi, Jason.  That is an amazing background.  People like you refused to let
the crap life threw at them hold them down.  I find these stories amazing.


On Mon, Apr 8, 2013 at 9:13 PM, Jason White <jason@jasonjgw.net> wrote:

> Bill Cox  <speakup@linux-speakup.org> wrote:
> >At one point I wanted to collaborate with Sina on a book about being blind
> >in the age of technology, where stories like your's and Sinas would make
> >excellent examples throughout the book.  Then I got busy at work, and now
> >I'm more busy than ever.  I still like the idea, though.
>
> I'm sure you can find wonderfully inspiring people, such as those who have
> already contributed to this thread, to share their experiences for the
> book.
>
> Here's a brief personal account, for what it is worth. I am very fortunate
> never to have undergone the experience of losing sight: I simply didn't
> have
> it in the first place. I divided my time between the local school for the
> blind and a good private school chosen by my family, switching full time to
> the latter after the primary years. I was also active in music at the
> time; a
> highlight of those years was the opportunity to travel to Europe as a
> violinist in a chamber orchestra. (Visiting the then divided Berlin shortly
> before the collapse of the east German regime is an experience that I shall
> always remember.)
>
> I completed secondary school with sufficiently good results to enter a
> combined Arts/Law degree program at university. My first year of university
> also entailed discovering UNIX, the Internet, and becoming an observer in a
> group known as the International Committee for Accessible Document Design
> (ICADD), which was developing Document Type Definitions and a
> transformation
> technique to enable publishers to make books accessible to people with
> disabilities. I started reading all of the papers I could acquire related
> to
> accessibility research. Four years later I entered the Honours program in
> Philosophy, a subject in which I had become deeply interested. At this
> point,
> the World Wide Web was also expanding rapidly, and I was invited into the
> inaugural W3C Web Accessibility Initiative Working Group, the beginning of
> what unexpectedly became quite a career in Web accessibility
> standard-setting
> work that I continued while studying law school subjects in subsequent
> years.
> The W3C work involved negotiating technical standards as well as editorial
> and
> administrative responsibilities, notably as Co-Chair of the Web Content
> Accessibility Guidelines working group from 2000-2004 during the
> development
> of WCAG 2.0. It was all highly enjoyable and engaging, with superb people
> involved and a lot of work to be done. I contributed to technical work in
> the
> Daisy Consortium as well, principally associated with Daisy 3.0.
>
> Having completed law school, specializing in public law (international law,
> human rights, Constitutional interpretation), it was time to pursue my
> childhood dream and embark upon a Ph.D. I chose a topic in philosophy, more
> specifically in contemporary analytic semantics of natural language, that
> was
> relevant to both my interests in public law and moral philosophy and to my
> Web-related work. Unfortunately, it wasn't possible to keep up with the
> workload attached to my Web accessibility responsibilities while focusing
> on
> research toward a Ph.D., so I had to set aside my W3C commitments entirely,
> just to concentrate on research and thesis/dissertation writing.
> Notwithstanding the difficulties along the way, I ultimately graduated with
> the Ph.D., and have since returned to more Web accessibility work. I am
> also
> attempting the academic publishing process while looking for the next
> research
> opportunity and pursuing a number of smaller projects, with an intention to
> contribute at both a theoretical and practical level to issues of human
> rights, social justice and of course accessibility as a special case of the
> above.
>
> That's rather long as a summary but it covers the essential points.
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> Speakup mailing list
> Speakup@linux-speakup.org
> http://linux-speakup.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/speakup
>

Re: Dumb post to the Stargardts Facebook group

[Tony Baechler]

I must say that I was surprised by your post, but it made me realize how 
fortunate I have been.  I was born blind, so I didn't have to worry about 
losing my vision.  My mom insisted that I learn Braille in school.  It's 
very disappointing to me how many people don't know Braille and rely 
entirely on speech.  I don't read Braille regularly and prefer audio when 
possible, but knowing how to read Braille helps me to form proper sentences 
and helped me to learn to spell when in school.  I've always been good at 
spelling.  I am sorry to say this, but I can often tell when a blind person 
posts to various lists because they can't spell and don't know how to use 
punctuation.  What's so disappointing to me is that they don't know how 
badly they look to the sighted world and it's usually too late to do much 
about it.  In other words, they either can't or don't want to learn Braille. 
  I was also fortunate to have a good teacher who helped me improve my 
Braille skills.  Just as a recent example, I saw a site which used the word 
"shell" when "shall" was obviously meant.  Simple proofreading would have 
caught it, but with the DECtalk, the two words sound the same.

I think your book idea is not only a good idea, but very necessary.  I see 
books a lot by so-called super blind people.  In other words, yes, they have 
had their challenges, but have learned to adapt to almost anything and now 
have good careers.  Usually they're born blind or lose their vision at a 
young age.  I almost never see people like you in those books.  Of course 
people lose vision all the time, but more focus seems to be on seniors who 
don't really have a career anymore or young adults who can still learn to 
adapt in high school or college.  I don't know how old you are and it 
doesn't really matter, but the point is that you were able to adapt, 
overcome, and move on and you are willing to write about it.  If you could 
get a publisher, that would be great!  Even if you can't, releasing it under 
a CC license would be a good idea.  Other people need to know what's out 
there and they need to get the message.  If nothing else, people need to 
know that there is an accessible alternative to Windows.  Perhaps the AFB or 
APH might be interested, but I think a mainstream publisher and/or site 
would be better.

I knew of a neighbor very similar to what you said.  She long sinced moved 
away now.  She had some vision, but not much.  I don't think she learned 
Braille and as far as I know, eventually gave up on the computer.  She 
volunteered at a preschool sometimes, but pretty much stayed at home and 
read books in audio.  She used to cook more, but I don't think she did 
except the microwave before she moved.  She had "guide" dogs, but they ended 
up being pets and didn't really guide her anywhere.  I don't think she used 
a cane, but I'm not sure.  She was apparently happy, but other than reading 
and talking on the phone, I don't think she did much.  I think she quit the 
preschool as well.  She returned the "guide" dogs because they weren't doing 
what they were supposed to, but she treated them like pets.  She had two of 
them.  Her husband apparently took care of her and they somehow managed.

On 4/8/2013 9:19 AM, Bill Cox wrote:
> Sorry, guys!  If I were fully blind, I would not make mistakes like sending
> that email last night to the SpeakUp group.  I meant it to go to a friend
> who's name started with S, and SpeakUp looks pretty close!  I hope it did
> not offend anyone on the SpeakUp list.  The guys on the Stargardt Facebook
> group could use some prodding to get them to go learn how to use programs
> like SpeakUp, so now and then I make a post like that.  The funny thing is
> I find that people like me with only central vision sometimes have worse
> outcomes than people like most of you, who are fully blind.  You guys all
> learned amazing talents like learning how to use Linux through SpeakUp.
> When people have sight, and slowly lose some of it, the typical situation I
> see is that they don't change or adapt much.  Instead of learning to listen
> at high speed, they simply read less, and stop using computers much.  So, I
> try on the Stargardt list now and then to motivate some of them to get off
> their butts and change their lives to deal with vision loss, but unlike
> becoming fully blind, it's possible to simply ignore central vision loss,
> and never adapt.  I have one good friend who has chosen to remain on
> permanent disability.  When I see blind guys working so hard to have
> careers, it makes me very sad to see these people with Stargardts or
> Macular Degeneration giving up.
>
> Bill

Re: Dumb post to the Stargardts Facebook group

[Jason White]

Tony Baechler  <speakup@linux-speakup.org> wrote:
>It's 
>very disappointing to me how many people don't know Braille and rely 
>entirely on speech.  I don't read Braille regularly and prefer audio when 
>possible, but knowing how to read Braille helps me to form proper sentences 
>and helped me to learn to spell when in school.  I've always been good at 
>spelling.  I am sorry to say this, but I can often tell when a blind person 
>posts to various lists because they can't spell and don't know how to use 
>punctuation.  What's so disappointing to me is that they don't know how 
>badly they look to the sighted world and it's usually too late to do much 
>about it.  In other words, they either can't or don't want to learn Braille. 

The Speakup list, along with several other Linux-related lists, is an
exception to the above, perhaps because using Linux proficiently requires a
certain level of literacy. On several other lists, however, I have noticed
precisely the phenomenon that you describe, and it is not attributable to the
posters' being non-native speakers of English, as many of them evidently have
English as a first language. What worries me most is that the people to whom
it looks terrible may include prospective employers. (Searching for posts
written by job applicants, whether justified or not, is becoming an
increasingly common practice. Even in the absence of active searching,
employers want evidence of a potential employee's literacy skills; anyone who
falls short in this respect will find his or her opportunities somewhat
constrained.)

Linux-related work certainly offers accessible and potentially rewarding
career paths. It's encouraging to learn via this list that there are at least
some efforts to educate people who are blind in this area of computing, for
which purposes Speakup is a valuable tool (recall recent certification-related
discussions for example). Competent administration requires access to the
system from the boot phase onward, and Speakup, like BRLTTY, is an important
component in addressing this need.

For the record, I use braille extensively, mostly nowadays via a refreshable
display rather than in paper form. I am sure that writing and editing my Ph.D.
thesis in braille contributed greatly to the typographical accuracy of the
final text, which I carefully proofread before submission. The examiners only
found a handful of errors, and the lack of typographical mistakes was remarked
upon in one of their reports.

With apologies to Kirk et al., for continuing an off-topic thread...

Re: Dumb post to the Stargardts Facebook group

[acollins]

>
>With apologies to Kirk et al., for continuing an off-topic thread...

The topic is blindness related, and so is fair game for the Speakup
list.  (grin)

RE: Dumb post to the Stargardts Facebook group

[Albert Sten-Clanton]

Tony, I agree with you on the value of braille.  I use it when I can,
although I'm not as averse to audio as my wife is.  

Given e-mails and Live Journal entries I've seen from sighted people,
including well-educated coworkers from the days I had a job, I'd be cautious
about assuming that misspellings on a list mean a blind author.  My own
experience suggests that the risk is higher, but it's very far from a clear
line.  

Al

-----Original Message-----
From: Speakup [mailto:speakup-bounces@linux-speakup.org] On Behalf Of Tony
Baechler
Sent: Tuesday, April 09, 2013 4:37 AM
To: Speakup is a screen review system for Linux.
Subject: Re: Dumb post to the Stargardts Facebook group

I must say that I was surprised by your post, but it made me realize how
fortunate I have been.  I was born blind, so I didn't have to worry about
losing my vision.  My mom insisted that I learn Braille in school.  It's
very disappointing to me how many people don't know Braille and rely
entirely on speech.  I don't read Braille regularly and prefer audio when
possible, but knowing how to read Braille helps me to form proper sentences
and helped me to learn to spell when in school.  I've always been good at
spelling.  I am sorry to say this, but I can often tell when a blind person
posts to various lists because they can't spell and don't know how to use
punctuation.  What's so disappointing to me is that they don't know how
badly they look to the sighted world and it's usually too late to do much
about it.  In other words, they either can't or don't want to learn Braille.

  I was also fortunate to have a good teacher who helped me improve my
Braille skills.  Just as a recent example, I saw a site which used the word
"shell" when "shall" was obviously meant.  Simple proofreading would have
caught it, but with the DECtalk, the two words sound the same.

I think your book idea is not only a good idea, but very necessary.  I see
books a lot by so-called super blind people.  In other words, yes, they have
had their challenges, but have learned to adapt to almost anything and now
have good careers.  Usually they're born blind or lose their vision at a
young age.  I almost never see people like you in those books.  Of course
people lose vision all the time, but more focus seems to be on seniors who
don't really have a career anymore or young adults who can still learn to
adapt in high school or college.  I don't know how old you are and it
doesn't really matter, but the point is that you were able to adapt,
overcome, and move on and you are willing to write about it.  If you could
get a publisher, that would be great!  Even if you can't, releasing it under
a CC license would be a good idea.  Other people need to know what's out
there and they need to get the message.  If nothing else, people need to
know that there is an accessible alternative to Windows.  Perhaps the AFB or
APH might be interested, but I think a mainstream publisher and/or site
would be better.

I knew of a neighbor very similar to what you said.  She long sinced moved
away now.  She had some vision, but not much.  I don't think she learned
Braille and as far as I know, eventually gave up on the computer.  She
volunteered at a preschool sometimes, but pretty much stayed at home and
read books in audio.  She used to cook more, but I don't think she did
except the microwave before she moved.  She had "guide" dogs, but they ended
up being pets and didn't really guide her anywhere.  I don't think she used
a cane, but I'm not sure.  She was apparently happy, but other than reading
and talking on the phone, I don't think she did much.  I think she quit the
preschool as well.  She returned the "guide" dogs because they weren't doing
what they were supposed to, but she treated them like pets.  She had two of
them.  Her husband apparently took care of her and they somehow managed.

On 4/8/2013 9:19 AM, Bill Cox wrote:
> Sorry, guys!  If I were fully blind, I would not make mistakes like 
> sending that email last night to the SpeakUp group.  I meant it to go 
> to a friend who's name started with S, and SpeakUp looks pretty close!  
> I hope it did not offend anyone on the SpeakUp list.  The guys on the 
> Stargardt Facebook group could use some prodding to get them to go 
> learn how to use programs like SpeakUp, so now and then I make a post 
> like that.  The funny thing is I find that people like me with only 
> central vision sometimes have worse outcomes than people like most of 
> you, who are fully blind.  You guys all learned amazing talents like
learning how to use Linux through SpeakUp.
> When people have sight, and slowly lose some of it, the typical 
> situation I see is that they don't change or adapt much.  Instead of 
> learning to listen at high speed, they simply read less, and stop 
> using computers much.  So, I try on the Stargardt list now and then to 
> motivate some of them to get off their butts and change their lives to 
> deal with vision loss, but unlike becoming fully blind, it's possible 
> to simply ignore central vision loss, and never adapt.  I have one 
> good friend who has chosen to remain on permanent disability.  When I 
> see blind guys working so hard to have careers, it makes me very sad 
> to see these people with Stargardts or Macular Degeneration giving up.
>
> Bill
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Re: Dumb post to the Stargardts Facebook group

[Tony Baechler]

Yes, I should have clarified.  The posts I'm referring to are on blindness 
lists.  Yes, generally the education level seems to be dropping, at least in 
the US.  I see constant errors all the time in the sighted world, but 
they're a different kind of errors.  What I'm talking about are obvious 
misspellings from listening to speech and not knowing how words are formed. 
  I've also seen run-on sentences because speech doesn't usually read out 
the punctuation.  I know of a sighted person who is having eye problems and 
makes lots of little mistakes, but he still ends sentences with a period and 
doesn't make his sentences a paragraph long.  The people who don't know 
Braille don't seem to know when to use upper and lower case either. 
Nowadays, with the rise of Twitter, the language is definitely changing, but 
I can usually tell the difference.  In almost all cases, when I see a blind 
person posting to a blindness list who uses reasonably proper sentence 
structure and grammar, it's because they've learned Braille.

I always proofread everything before I post, so hopefully my posts are 
reasonably free of errors.  Most people don't.  It's amazing how many 
mistakes you can catch with 30 seconds of proofreading.  The problem with 
people who don't know Braille is that they can't visualize in their minds 
what a sentence should look like since speech reads out everything in one 
long stream of words.  They don't read the period at the end of the 
sentence.  Even if they check spelling, they still can't seem to use proper 
punctuation.  I agree with Jason that often it's too bad for them because 
employers do pay attention to such things.  People often complain about the 
high unemployment rate of the blind, but literacy has a lot to do with it. 
I would argue that the illiteracy rate and unemployment rate are related.

On 4/9/2013 4:27 AM, Albert Sten-Clanton wrote:
> Tony, I agree with you on the value of braille.  I use it when I can,
> although I'm not as averse to audio as my wife is.
>
> Given e-mails and Live Journal entries I've seen from sighted people,
> including well-educated coworkers from the days I had a job, I'd be cautious
> about assuming that misspellings on a list mean a blind author.  My own
> experience suggests that the risk is higher, but it's very far from a clear
> line.

Re: Dumb post to the Stargardts Facebook group

[John G. Heim]

Well, I'm not sure you could get a book like that published. But I do 
know of a publisher that might be interested, No Starch press. They 
specialize in  computer books that aren't necessarily your typical how 
to manual.

Also, I'd be willing to set up a portion of www.iavit.org  to let people 
post their stories. That is the web site of the International 
Association of Visually Impaired Technologists.

And, finally, there is an email  list specifically to talk about  this 
very subject, talk@iavit.org. That list isn't very active but it might 
be if more stuff like this was posted there.


On 04/08/2013 11:18 AM, acollins@icsmail.net wrote:
> Well, it's an interesting idea.  Maybe you could get some others here to
> contribute their stories and experiences.  If you think what I wrote to
> the list would help, feel free to use it.  If you do, I think you should
> either get my friend Keith's permission, or delete his name from what I
> wrote.
>
> Maybe you could give the book an interesting title, like "Blindness, The
> Challenge, and The Experience".
>
>
>> At one point I wanted to collaborate with Sina on a book about being blind
>> in the age of technology, where stories like your's and Sinas would make
>> excellent examples throughout the book.  Then I got busy at work, and now
>> I'm more busy than ever.  I still like the idea, though.
>>
>> Bill
>>
>>
>> On Mon, Apr 8, 2013 at 7:17 AM, <acollins@icsmail.net> wrote:
>>
>>> Hi Bill and all.  I think we need to keep in mind that as far as
>>> blindness is concerned, each of us have different experiences when it
>>> comes to learning to deal with our blindness.  Some of us get lucky, and
>>> find ourselves in contact with people who can teach us that blindness is
>>> not the end of the world.  Others have a more difficult time, and have
>>> no one who can help shield them against the terrible attitudes that most
>>> of the world has concerning blindness.  My friend Keith Watson was a
>>> draftsman engineer, before he slowly began to lose his sight.  Like
>>> Bill, he fortunately ran in to some of us on the Speakup list, who could
>>> give him advice about what kind of help was available, and not allow him
>>> to sit around feeling sorry for himself.  He went back to school, and
>>> his company moved him over in to their ip department.  He has since gone
>>> to work for a company monitoring the quality of accessible documents
>>> they produce for the Social Seccurity Administration.
>>>
>>> On the other hand, there are guys like me, who have been blind all my
>>> life.  I went to the local state school for the blind here in Iowa.
>>> Then because I was just out of high school, and didn't really know what
>>> I wanted to do with myself, I attended a one year course at our state
>>> comission for the blind, where I learned a lot of coping skills and
>>> attitudes that I didn't pick up when I was in school.  The upshot of it
>>> all is that I went to tech school, got a job as a machinest, got laid
>>> off, went to computer school, and got a job in tech support for one of
>>> our state universities.  I worked as a machinest for ten years, and then
>>> worked as a tech support consultant for the university for 25 years.
>>>
>>> I think it behoves all of us to spread the word that being blind is not
>>> the end of the world.  Is it sometimes difficult?  Yes, but so is life
>>> in general.  The glass is either half empty, or half full.  Each of us
>>> gets to decide individually.
>>>
>>> Many others here could tell similar stories.
>>>
>>> Gene Collins
>>>
>>>> I just posted the following to the Stargardts group on Facebook in
>>> response
>>>> to a post from a kid who was asked to write about what it's like to go
>>>> blind, for a publication in Canada.  She posted her opening, and asked
>>> what
>>>> we thought of it.  I found it wanting.  She said she could not see the
>>>> professor's face.  This is what I said:
>>>>
>>>> For the first two years, I lived in denial. Losing central vision meant
>>>> losing my job, my house, and the ability to raise my kids. It paralyzed me
>>>> with fear, and threatened everything I cared about. Yet I was lucky.
>>> Losing
>>>> sight meant losing my ability to program, which is the skill that has
>>>> defined my value to the world. I found a blind mentor who showed me that
>>> it
>>>> is possible for the blind to be outstanding programmers. I began to
>>>> contribute to software for the blind. I worked so hard at improving such
>>>> software, that I sat too long at my computer and gave myself blood clots,
>>>> which moved to my lungs and came close to killing me. Still, I was lucky.
>>>> What is it like to slowly go blind? The world crashes down around you and
>>>> you fight dragons every day to stay alive. That's if you're lucky, like
>>> me.
>>>> For the rest, possibly the majority, I fear it may be far worse. I was
>>>> lucky in that I had the chance to build something I cared about
>>> desperately
>>>> before losing central vision. It gave me the will to overcome the
>>>> obstacles. What is it like for kids losing vision while going to college?
>>>> That's what really breaks my heart. They don't yet know what is worth
>>>> fighting for. Not seeing the professor is no big deal. How many of you
>>>> people out there with Stargartds have learned speed listening? Do you know
>>>> the potential you have, and the value of the life you will lose if you
>>>> don't fight for it? I'm lucky, because I got to build that life before
>>>> losing vision. I grieve for all the kids who will never get the chance to
>>>> know why they should fight so hard.
>>>>
>>>> I don't think any of the kids out there with Stargardt's will suddenly
>>>> change their lives because of my post, but you guys, and especially Sina,
>>>> have changed my life.  Thanks for showing me that my central vision
>>>> impairment need not cripple me, and for the chance to help write the
>>>> software I need.  I am using Speech Hub, Mary TTS, and NVDA just to write
>>>> this email.  Working together, we can build great tools like Speech Hub,
>>>> and great organizations like the Accessible Computing Foundation.  We can
>>>> make a difference one vision impaired guy at a time, or at least try like
>>>> Hell.
>>>> Bill
>>>> _______________________________________________
>>>> Speakup mailing list
>>>> Speakup@linux-speakup.org
>>>> http://linux-speakup.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/speakup
>>> _______________________________________________
>>> Speakup mailing list
>>> Speakup@linux-speakup.org
>>> http://linux-speakup.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/speakup
>>>
>> _______________________________________________
>> Speakup mailing list
>> Speakup@linux-speakup.org
>> http://linux-speakup.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/speakup
> _______________________________________________
> Speakup mailing list
> Speakup@linux-speakup.org
> http://linux-speakup.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/speakup
>

Re: Dumb post to the Stargardts Facebook group

[Kirk Reiser]

On Tue, 9 Apr 2013, acollins@icsmail.net wrote:

>>
>> With apologies to Kirk et al., for continuing an off-topic thread...
>
> The topic is blindness related, and so is fair game for the Speakup
> list.  (grin)

Yous all no I donts mined joost aboute anna toppic longs as its
speeled grammarcly cor-corr-co-right!

-- 
Well that's it then, colour me gone!

Re: Dumb post to the Stargardts Facebook group

[Michał Zegan]

-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----
Hash: SHA1

I was blind almost since I was born.
So, for me, being blind means almost nothing, I don't care about it at
all.
I just think that having the sight would be useful because I could
drive the car, access things like bios without help, etc. :)
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RE: Dumb post to the Stargardts Facebook group

[Don Raikes]

Hi again,

Actually my wife is a proofreader/editor by training, and she sees sites all over the internet and many printed materials that have the same issues with being poorly written.  

We attribute this not to the lack of sight or not having English as a primary language, but more the breakdown in the school systems and the lack of teaching of proper grammer and punctuation.  Also it seems like even those publications that have an "editor" don't have one who knows what he is doing, so the simplest mistakes get through to the printed page or website.

-----Original Message-----
From: Jason White [mailto:jason@jasonjgw.net] 
Sent: Tuesday, April 09, 2013 2:45 AM
To: speakup@braille.uwo.ca
Subject: Re: Dumb post to the Stargardts Facebook group

Tony Baechler  <speakup@linux-speakup.org> wrote:
>It's
>very disappointing to me how many people don't know Braille and rely 
>entirely on speech.  I don't read Braille regularly and prefer audio 
>when possible, but knowing how to read Braille helps me to form proper 
>sentences and helped me to learn to spell when in school.  I've always 
>been good at spelling.  I am sorry to say this, but I can often tell 
>when a blind person posts to various lists because they can't spell and 
>don't know how to use punctuation.  What's so disappointing to me is 
>that they don't know how badly they look to the sighted world and it's 
>usually too late to do much about it.  In other words, they either can't or don't want to learn Braille.

The Speakup list, along with several other Linux-related lists, is an exception to the above, perhaps because using Linux proficiently requires a certain level of literacy. On several other lists, however, I have noticed precisely the phenomenon that you describe, and it is not attributable to the posters' being non-native speakers of English, as many of them evidently have English as a first language. What worries me most is that the people to whom it looks terrible may include prospective employers. (Searching for posts written by job applicants, whether justified or not, is becoming an increasingly common practice. Even in the absence of active searching, employers want evidence of a potential employee's literacy skills; anyone who falls short in this respect will find his or her opportunities somewhat
constrained.)

Linux-related work certainly offers accessible and potentially rewarding career paths. It's encouraging to learn via this list that there are at least some efforts to educate people who are blind in this area of computing, for which purposes Speakup is a valuable tool (recall recent certification-related discussions for example). Competent administration requires access to the system from the boot phase onward, and Speakup, like BRLTTY, is an important component in addressing this need.

For the record, I use braille extensively, mostly nowadays via a refreshable display rather than in paper form. I am sure that writing and editing my Ph.D.
thesis in braille contributed greatly to the typographical accuracy of the final text, which I carefully proofread before submission. The examiners only found a handful of errors, and the lack of typographical mistakes was remarked upon in one of their reports.

With apologies to Kirk et al., for continuing an off-topic thread...


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RE: Dumb post to the Stargardts Facebook group

[Don Raikes]

+1 :-D

-----Original Message-----
From: Kirk Reiser [mailto:kirk@reisers.ca] 
Sent: Tuesday, April 09, 2013 8:14 AM
To: Speakup is a screen review system for Linux.
Subject: Re: Dumb post to the Stargardts Facebook group

On Tue, 9 Apr 2013, acollins@icsmail.net wrote:

>>
>> With apologies to Kirk et al., for continuing an off-topic thread...
>
> The topic is blindness related, and so is fair game for the Speakup 
> list.  (grin)

Yous all no I donts mined joost aboute anna toppic longs as its speeled grammarcly cor-corr-co-right!

--
Well that's it then, colour me gone!
_______________________________________________
Speakup mailing list
Speakup@linux-speakup.org
http://linux-speakup.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/speakup

Re: Dumb post to the Stargardts Facebook group

[Michał Zegan]

-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----
Hash: SHA1

mispellings is extremely common for blind people, I saw that multiple
of times, for example on muds like miriani.
It makes me mad!
Their screenreaders have the ability to spell things. do they use
that? no. and maybe they even do not know they can spell things.
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RE: Dumb post to the Stargardts Facebook group

[Dawes, Stephen]

IMHO!
There is no excuse for misspelling in emails, because most email clients have the ability to check the spelling of a message before the message is sent. The only problem with this is that people do not turn this setting on.
My wife tells me that spelling errors in anything I write only demonstrate how dumb I am.


Stephen Dawes <B.A. B.Sc.>
-----Original Message-----
From: Speakup [mailto:speakup-bounces@linux-speakup.org] On Behalf Of Michal Zegan
Sent: Tuesday, April 09, 2013 10:12 AM
To: Speakup is a screen review system for Linux.
Subject: Re: Dumb post to the Stargardts Facebook group

-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----
Hash: SHA1

mispellings is extremely common for blind people, I saw that multiple of times, for example on muds like miriani.
It makes me mad!
Their screenreaders have the ability to spell things. do they use that? no. and maybe they even do not know they can spell things.
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This communication is intended ONLY for the use of the person or entity named above and may contain information that is confidential or legally privileged. If you are not the intended recipient named above or a person responsible for delivering messages or communications to the intended recipient, YOU ARE HEREBY NOTIFIED that any use, distribution, or copying of this communication or any of the information contained in it is strictly prohibited. If you have received this communication in error, please notify us immediately by telephone and then destroy or delete this communication, or return it to us by mail if requested by us. The City of Calgary thanks you for your attention and co-operation.

RE: Dumb post to the Stargardts Facebook group

[Albert Sten-Clanton]

The problem with a spellchecker can be that it tells you you've misspelled a
bunch of things that you've spelled correctly.  At least, that's what
happens with Thunderbird on my Linux box.  I'm not a perfect speller, and it
amazes me from time to time which words I forget the spelling of, but the
problem is rare enough that I don't need a spellchecker chirping needlessly
while I'm trying not to write something stupid.  :-)

Al 

-----Original Message-----
From: Speakup [mailto:speakup-bounces@linux-speakup.org] On Behalf Of Dawes,
Stephen
Sent: Tuesday, April 09, 2013 12:21 PM
To: 'Speakup is a screen review system for Linux.'
Subject: RE: Dumb post to the Stargardts Facebook group

IMHO!
There is no excuse for misspelling in emails, because most email clients
have the ability to check the spelling of a message before the message is
sent. The only problem with this is that people do not turn this setting on.
My wife tells me that spelling errors in anything I write only demonstrate
how dumb I am.


Stephen Dawes <B.A. B.Sc.>
-----Original Message-----
From: Speakup [mailto:speakup-bounces@linux-speakup.org] On Behalf Of Michal
Zegan
Sent: Tuesday, April 09, 2013 10:12 AM
To: Speakup is a screen review system for Linux.
Subject: Re: Dumb post to the Stargardts Facebook group

-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----
Hash: SHA1

mispellings is extremely common for blind people, I saw that multiple of
times, for example on muds like miriani.
It makes me mad!
Their screenreaders have the ability to spell things. do they use that? no.
and maybe they even do not know they can spell things.
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privileged. If you are not the intended recipient named above or a person
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this communication or any of the information contained in it is strictly
prohibited. If you have received this communication in error, please notify
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RE: Dumb post to the Stargardts Facebook group

[Hart Larry]

Well, I know in advance my comments are an alternative.  First, when this 
thread began, I figured it was off-topic and Kirk would probably put an end to 
it.  On another hand, as American English spelling is not a consistant science, 
it would seem unlikely to just memerize thousands of spellings.
Sure when I was younger, Braille was nearly an only way to read, but in the 
late50s I was quite interested in Baseball and the Space Program, but mostly it 
were text books which were available.  I was never a good or comfortable 
Braille reader.  About a only time I read outloud is at our anual Pass Over 
Seder.
I know there are both sighted-and-blind folks who are phonatical about 
spelling-and-punctuation.  I look at especially spelling-and-moreover typing as 
a way to convey ideas-and-concepts.  I know it drives some crazy if I use a 
number in the middle of a word.
Growing up with Braille also teaches bad habbits in typing.  For example, when 
I would type an amount of money, I would type symbols of "dollar sign""number 
sign" followed by an amount.
As an unconventional, I really like having dashes separating some words, I 
guess because I don't really like dead-air  and so a dash would symbolicly keep 
sound alive.
In conclusion, since many of us are not always writing executive business 
letters, we're symply conveying opinions-and-information.  Sure getting a wrong 
letter in an url, well, thats important.  As a strictly speech listener, I try 
when I can to hear as little punctuation as I can.  I think when I've tried 
spelling checkers in Pine, they were harder to navigate.
Thanks for listening.
Hart

Re: Dumb post to the Stargardts Facebook group

[Gregory Nowak]

On Tue, Apr 09, 2013 at 07:08:39AM -0700, Tony Baechler wrote:
> I always proofread everything before I post, so hopefully my posts
> are reasonably free of errors.  Most people don't.  It's amazing how
> many mistakes you can catch with 30 seconds of proofreading. 

I think a part of this for blind and sighted alike is laziness. I know
a few people who are just content to type what they have to say, and
just hit send, because they don't feel like reading through what they
wrote. These are people who are sighted and blind. I'm not assuming
here either. When I mentioned this to them, this is what they told me,
they don't feel like reading through casual writing. Unfortunately,
I've looked through their professional writing too, and they are
invariably surprised by the amount of errors I point out 
to them in such
pieces of writing.

On another note, I noticed a number of blind people, including
yourself putting two spaces in between every sentence. I put in just
one, because this is how I learned it in braille, and it just
stuck. Is there some sort of significance to the two spaces thing, or
is it just personal preference?

Greg


-- 
web site: http://www.gregn.net
gpg public key: http://www.gregn.net/pubkey.asc
skype: gregn1
(authorization required, add me to your contacts list first)

--
Free domains: http://www.eu.org/ or mail dns-manager@EU.org

RE: Dumb post to the Stargardts Facebook group

[Albert Sten-Clanton]

Greg, I learned to put two spaces after a period ending a sentence when I
learned to type.  I don't know if conventions have changed, but that's why I
do it.  

Al 

-----Original Message-----
From: Speakup [mailto:speakup-bounces@linux-speakup.org] On Behalf Of
Gregory Nowak
Sent: Tuesday, April 09, 2013 7:20 PM
To: Speakup is a screen review system for Linux.
Subject: Re: Dumb post to the Stargardts Facebook group

On Tue, Apr 09, 2013 at 07:08:39AM -0700, Tony Baechler wrote:
> I always proofread everything before I post, so hopefully my posts are 
> reasonably free of errors.  Most people don't.  It's amazing how many 
> mistakes you can catch with 30 seconds of proofreading.

I think a part of this for blind and sighted alike is laziness. I know a few
people who are just content to type what they have to say, and just hit
send, because they don't feel like reading through what they wrote. These
are people who are sighted and blind. I'm not assuming here either. When I
mentioned this to them, this is what they told me, they don't feel like
reading through casual writing. Unfortunately, I've looked through their
professional writing too, and they are invariably surprised by the amount of
errors I point out to them in such pieces of writing.

On another note, I noticed a number of blind people, including yourself
putting two spaces in between every sentence. I put in just one, because
this is how I learned it in braille, and it just stuck. Is there some sort
of significance to the two spaces thing, or is it just personal preference?

Greg


--
web site: http://www.gregn.net
gpg public key: http://www.gregn.net/pubkey.asc
skype: gregn1
(authorization required, add me to your contacts list first)

--
Free domains: http://www.eu.org/ or mail dns-manager@EU.org
_______________________________________________
Speakup mailing list
Speakup@linux-speakup.org
http://linux-speakup.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/speakup

Re: Dumb post to the Stargardts Facebook group

[Jason White]

Tony Baechler  <speakup@linux-speakup.org> wrote:
>I agree with Jason that often it's too bad for them because 
>employers do pay attention to such things.  People often complain about the 
>high unemployment rate of the blind, but literacy has a lot to do with it. 
>I would argue that the illiteracy rate and unemployment rate are related.

Here is a summary of a study which suggests you are right:
http://www.blindcanadians.ca/publications/cbm/8/new-research-study-early-braille-education-vital-establishing-lifelong-literacy

I don't know to what extent it is consistent with other research findings
reported in the literature.

Re: Dumb post to the Stargardts Facebook group

[William F. Acker WB2FLW +1 303 722 7209]

On Tue, 9 Apr 2013, Kirk Reiser wrote:

> On Tue, 9 Apr 2013, acollins@icsmail.net wrote:
>
>>> 
>>> With apologies to Kirk et al., for continuing an off-topic thread...
>> 
>> The topic is blindness related, and so is fair game for the Speakup
>> list.  (grin)
>
> Yous all no I donts mined joost aboute anna toppic longs as its
> speeled grammarcly cor-corr-co-right!
Laughing my head off!! HMM, looks like the dude has been on The Eyes-Free 
list a little to long.

-- 
           Bill in Denver

Re: Dumb post to the Stargardts Facebook group

[Tony Baechler]

Actually, you bring up an interesting point.  I don't have the problem with 
typing the dollar and number signs like you described, but I've seen a 
problem with some devices not reverse translating Braille as they should.  A 
particular instance of this comes to mind.  Back in school, I had a test 
with true or false questions.  I answered either "t" or "f" as one would 
expect.  For some reason, when it was printed out, it got turned into "that" 
and "from."  The teacher didn't know why, but of course I recognized the 
problem.  That's why there is either grade I or computer Braille which is 
what I should've used, but I didn't know it would do that.  Similarly, a 
blind person was asking me a question and the sentence ended with "en?" 
which was supposed to be "enough."  I'm not sure why the notetakers have 
difficulty in back translation, but it seems to be common.  NFBTrans didn't 
seem to have that problem.

Also like you, I'm not a regular Braille reader nowadays and I usually don't 
have the screen reader read out punctuation.  However, what I think you 
aren't realizing is that since you know Braille, you don't need to know 
where the punctuation is.  In other words, I know that a period goes at the 
end of a sentence which is a statement and a question mark goes at the end 
of a question.  I don't hear passages of text as one continuous stream of 
words with a short pause separating them sometimes, if that makes sense.  If 
I never knew Braille, I wouldn't know that.  I can tell by how you write 
that you at least learned some Braille and know enough to form a proper 
sentence.  I've seen several blind people who use no punctuation at all and 
sound uneducated in their writing style.  I'm not saying that everything 
needs to be 100% perfect, especially nowadays with email and text messages, 
but it's downright confusing when there is no separation between sentences 
and thoughts.

As a final note, I'm terrible at reading aloud and avoid it when possible. 
While I do know Braille, I'm not the fastest or best Braille reader by any 
means.  I'm afraid I've got out of practice because I rely so much more on 
speech and DAISY books nowadays.

On 4/9/2013 1:34 PM, Hart Larry wrote:
> Well, I know in advance my comments are an alternative. First, when this
> thread began, I figured it was off-topic and Kirk would probably put an end
> to it. On another hand, as American English spelling is not a consistant
> science, it would seem unlikely to just memerize thousands of spellings.
> Sure when I was younger, Braille was nearly an only way to read, but in the
> late50s I was quite interested in Baseball and the Space Program, but mostly
> it were text books which were available. I was never a good or comfortable
> Braille reader. About a only time I read outloud is at our anual Pass Over
> Seder.
> I know there are both sighted-and-blind folks who are phonatical about
> spelling-and-punctuation. I look at especially spelling-and-moreover typing
> as a way to convey ideas-and-concepts. I know it drives some crazy if I use
> a number in the middle of a word.
> Growing up with Braille also teaches bad habbits in typing. For example,
> when I would type an amount of money, I would type symbols of "dollar
> sign""number sign" followed by an amount.
> As an unconventional, I really like having dashes separating some words, I
> guess because I don't really like dead-air and so a dash would symbolicly
> keep sound alive.
> In conclusion, since many of us are not always writing executive business
> letters, we're symply conveying opinions-and-information. Sure getting a
> wrong letter in an url, well, thats important. As a strictly speech
> listener, I try when I can to hear as little punctuation as I can. I think
> when I've tried spelling checkers in Pine, they were harder to navigate.
> Thanks for listening.
> Hart

Re: Dumb post to the Stargardts Facebook group

[Tony Baechler]

See my comments in-line below.

On 4/9/2013 4:19 PM, Gregory Nowak wrote:
> On Tue, Apr 09, 2013 at 07:08:39AM -0700, Tony Baechler wrote:
>> I always proofread everything before I post, so hopefully my posts
>> are reasonably free of errors.  Most people don't.  It's amazing how
>> many mistakes you can catch with 30 seconds of proofreading.
>
> I think a part of this for blind and sighted alike is laziness. I know
> a few people who are just content to type what they have to say, and
> just hit send, because they don't feel like reading through what they
> wrote. These are people who are sighted and blind. I'm not assuming
> here either. When I mentioned this to them, this is what they told me,
> they don't feel like reading through casual writing. Unfortunately,
> I've looked through their professional writing too, and they are
> invariably surprised by the amount of errors I point out
> to them in such
> pieces of writing.

Yes, that was me at one time.  I guess I'm just different, but I was 
embarrased by the obvious spelling errors which I missed, so I made it a 
point to take the extra 30 seconds.  Besides, it's amazing what comes back 
to haunt you in Google search results.

> On another note, I noticed a number of blind people, including
> yourself putting two spaces in between every sentence. I put in just
> one, because this is how I learned it in braille, and it just
> stuck. Is there some sort of significance to the two spaces thing, or
> is it just personal preference?


Ah, the two spaces.  Nowadays, it's mostly habbit.  I learned two things 
very early in life which I've never forgot.  One is that in Braille, we use 
one space between sentences and three spaces to indent a new paragraph. 
That's because Braille takes more space than print, but in the printed 
world, we use two spaces between sentences and five spaces to indent.  The 
other thing I learned was from my third grade teacher.  She said that you 
always, always separate sentences with two spaces no matter what.  That 
stuck and I've always done it that way.  I can't comment on why anyone else 
does and I've read from many different sources that one space is acceptable 
and preferred, but I can't help it.  If I purposely only use one space, it 
feels wrong to me.  The two spaces rule apparently disappeared in the 1950s, 
but it was still taught to me in school about 30 years later.

As a final thought, here is another reason why I proofread.  Since I do use 
speech, I want to see how it sounds being read back to me.  Even though the 
spelling and grammar are generally good enough, sometimes there is awkward 
phrasing or I realize that I didn't complete my thought as clearly as I 
should.  By going back and reading again, I've often changed words and added 
sentences to help with clarification.  To paraphrase Isaac Asimov, the goal 
should be to write clearly and to be understood.

Re: Dumb post to the Stargardts Facebook group

[Bill Cox]

My central vision only started to decay a few years ago, so I've only
learned to listen to books over the last three years. I was always a
terrible speller, and a very slow reader, which I thought were related.
However, you guys seem to spell quite well, yet even a fast Braille reader
would have read more slowly than me.  I'm just curious how you guys learned
to spell so well when the slow readers like me never did.  In my case,
typing is what has finally enabled me to spell most words correctly.  I
cannot tell you how to spell a word if you ask me, but the muscle memory in
my hands know how to spell most common words.  Did touch memory help with
Braille?

Bill


On Wed, Apr 10, 2013 at 4:44 AM, Tony Baechler <tony@baechler.net> wrote:

> See my comments in-line below.
>
>
> On 4/9/2013 4:19 PM, Gregory Nowak wrote:
>
>> On Tue, Apr 09, 2013 at 07:08:39AM -0700, Tony Baechler wrote:
>>
>>> I always proofread everything before I post, so hopefully my posts
>>> are reasonably free of errors.  Most people don't.  It's amazing how
>>> many mistakes you can catch with 30 seconds of proofreading.
>>>
>>
>> I think a part of this for blind and sighted alike is laziness. I know
>> a few people who are just content to type what they have to say, and
>> just hit send, because they don't feel like reading through what they
>> wrote. These are people who are sighted and blind. I'm not assuming
>> here either. When I mentioned this to them, this is what they told me,
>> they don't feel like reading through casual writing. Unfortunately,
>> I've looked through their professional writing too, and they are
>> invariably surprised by the amount of errors I point out
>> to them in such
>> pieces of writing.
>>
>
> Yes, that was me at one time.  I guess I'm just different, but I was
> embarrased by the obvious spelling errors which I missed, so I made it a
> point to take the extra 30 seconds.  Besides, it's amazing what comes back
> to haunt you in Google search results.
>
>
>  On another note, I noticed a number of blind people, including
>> yourself putting two spaces in between every sentence. I put in just
>> one, because this is how I learned it in braille, and it just
>> stuck. Is there some sort of significance to the two spaces thing, or
>> is it just personal preference?
>>
>
>
> Ah, the two spaces.  Nowadays, it's mostly habbit.  I learned two things
> very early in life which I've never forgot.  One is that in Braille, we use
> one space between sentences and three spaces to indent a new paragraph.
> That's because Braille takes more space than print, but in the printed
> world, we use two spaces between sentences and five spaces to indent.  The
> other thing I learned was from my third grade teacher.  She said that you
> always, always separate sentences with two spaces no matter what.  That
> stuck and I've always done it that way.  I can't comment on why anyone else
> does and I've read from many different sources that one space is acceptable
> and preferred, but I can't help it.  If I purposely only use one space, it
> feels wrong to me.  The two spaces rule apparently disappeared in the
> 1950s, but it was still taught to me in school about 30 years later.
>
> As a final thought, here is another reason why I proofread.  Since I do
> use speech, I want to see how it sounds being read back to me.  Even though
> the spelling and grammar are generally good enough, sometimes there is
> awkward phrasing or I realize that I didn't complete my thought as clearly
> as I should.  By going back and reading again, I've often changed words and
> added sentences to help with clarification.  To paraphrase Isaac Asimov,
> the goal should be to write clearly and to be understood.
>
> ______________________________**_________________
> Speakup mailing list
> Speakup@linux-speakup.org
> http://linux-speakup.org/cgi-**bin/mailman/listinfo/speakup<http://linux-speakup.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/speakup>
>

RE: Dumb post to the Stargardts Facebook group

[Dawes, Stephen]

It is quite rare today for you to find documents with double spaces at the end of sentences. The double space after end of sentence punctuation is a left over from the type writer era. I was told many years ago by my mentor and boss, at the time, that in the electronic error you no longer use the double space at the end of sentences. When I asked why, she replied that is all to do with fonts. On the type writer, she explained, the punctuation was not necessarily the same size as the letters. At the same time she also stopped me from indenting the typical five spaces, or one tab,  indent on a new line that started a paragraph. The blank line is the acceptable practice for a new paragraph, and everything is now left justified.


Stephen Dawes <B.A., B.Sc.>
Management Systems Analyst
The City of Calgary Information Technology


-----Original Message-----
From: Speakup [mailto:speakup-bounces@linux-speakup.org] On Behalf Of Tony Baechler
Sent: Wednesday, April 10, 2013 2:45 AM
To: Speakup is a screen review system for Linux.
Subject: Re: Dumb post to the Stargardts Facebook group

See my comments in-line below.

On 4/9/2013 4:19 PM, Gregory Nowak wrote:
> On Tue, Apr 09, 2013 at 07:08:39AM -0700, Tony Baechler wrote:
>> I always proofread everything before I post, so hopefully my posts
>> are reasonably free of errors.  Most people don't.  It's amazing how
>> many mistakes you can catch with 30 seconds of proofreading.
>
> I think a part of this for blind and sighted alike is laziness. I know
> a few people who are just content to type what they have to say, and
> just hit send, because they don't feel like reading through what they
> wrote. These are people who are sighted and blind. I'm not assuming
> here either. When I mentioned this to them, this is what they told me,
> they don't feel like reading through casual writing. Unfortunately,
> I've looked through their professional writing too, and they are
> invariably surprised by the amount of errors I point out
> to them in such
> pieces of writing.

Yes, that was me at one time.  I guess I'm just different, but I was
embarrased by the obvious spelling errors which I missed, so I made it a
point to take the extra 30 seconds.  Besides, it's amazing what comes back
to haunt you in Google search results.

> On another note, I noticed a number of blind people, including
> yourself putting two spaces in between every sentence. I put in just
> one, because this is how I learned it in braille, and it just
> stuck. Is there some sort of significance to the two spaces thing, or
> is it just personal preference?


Ah, the two spaces.  Nowadays, it's mostly habbit.  I learned two things
very early in life which I've never forgot.  One is that in Braille, we use
one space between sentences and three spaces to indent a new paragraph.
That's because Braille takes more space than print, but in the printed
world, we use two spaces between sentences and five spaces to indent.  The
other thing I learned was from my third grade teacher.  She said that you
always, always separate sentences with two spaces no matter what.  That
stuck and I've always done it that way.  I can't comment on why anyone else
does and I've read from many different sources that one space is acceptable
and preferred, but I can't help it.  If I purposely only use one space, it
feels wrong to me.  The two spaces rule apparently disappeared in the 1950s,
but it was still taught to me in school about 30 years later.

As a final thought, here is another reason why I proofread.  Since I do use
speech, I want to see how it sounds being read back to me.  Even though the
spelling and grammar are generally good enough, sometimes there is awkward
phrasing or I realize that I didn't complete my thought as clearly as I
should.  By going back and reading again, I've often changed words and added
sentences to help with clarification.  To paraphrase Isaac Asimov, the goal
should be to write clearly and to be understood.
_______________________________________________
Speakup mailing list
Speakup@linux-speakup.org
http://linux-speakup.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/speakup

NOTICE -
This communication is intended ONLY for the use of the person or entity named above and may contain information that is confidential or legally privileged. If you are not the intended recipient named above or a person responsible for delivering messages or communications to the intended recipient, YOU ARE HEREBY NOTIFIED that any use, distribution, or copying of this communication or any of the information contained in it is strictly prohibited. If you have received this communication in error, please notify us immediately by telephone and then destroy or delete this communication, or return it to us by mail if requested by us. The City of Calgary thanks you for your attention and co-operation.

Re: Dumb post to the Stargardts Facebook group

[Tony Baechler]

I can only comment on my own experiences, but I've always been good at 
spelling.  I'm sure Braille has a lot to do with it, but I can't remember a 
time before I knew Braille and I learned it at a young age.  I usually have 
an idea or image in my mind of what a word in Braille should look like.  I 
remember when first learning the computer thinking how odd it was that I had 
to write out each individual letter instead of using grade II contractions. 
  Other than that, all I can say is that I'm terrible at math and I've 
always enjoyed English and literature.  I'm sure others have better 
explanations, but I've always been gifted with good spelling.  I never use a 
spellchecker because I don't need it.  The only regular errors I have is 
when this stupid keyboard decides to not register a letter.  Better 
keyboards don't have that problem.

On 4/10/2013 4:32 AM, Bill Cox wrote:
> My central vision only started to decay a few years ago, so I've only
> learned to listen to books over the last three years. I was always a
> terrible speller, and a very slow reader, which I thought were related.
> However, you guys seem to spell quite well, yet even a fast Braille reader
> would have read more slowly than me.  I'm just curious how you guys learned
> to spell so well when the slow readers like me never did.  In my case,
> typing is what has finally enabled me to spell most words correctly.  I
> cannot tell you how to spell a word if you ask me, but the muscle memory in
> my hands know how to spell most common words.  Did touch memory help with
> Braille?

Re: Dumb post to the Stargardts Facebook group

[Haden Pike]

Figured I'd toss my two cents in here.

Yes I learned braille when I was younger, but I don't see that as 
effecting how I write.  I rely on speech, not because I want to, but 
because I have to.  I have very little feeling left in my finger tips.  
On a side note, people have told me that they are terrible at reading 
code without a braille display, which, as a computer science 
undergraduate is something I find extremely interesting.  I take the 
time to proof-read everything I write--even if it's on Twitter where 
grammatical errors proliferate as you attempt to make your thought fit 
into 140 characters.  If the screen reader miss-pronounces something, 
it's generally a good indicator that it's spelled wrong.  For instance, 
I put two (f)'s in proliferate.
Haden

On 4/10/2013 4:33 AM, Tony Baechler wrote:
> Actually, you bring up an interesting point.  I don't have the problem 
> with typing the dollar and number signs like you described, but I've 
> seen a problem with some devices not reverse translating Braille as 
> they should.  A particular instance of this comes to mind. Back in 
> school, I had a test with true or false questions.  I answered either 
> "t" or "f" as one would expect.  For some reason, when it was printed 
> out, it got turned into "that" and "from." The teacher didn't know 
> why, but of course I recognized the problem.  That's why there is 
> either grade I or computer Braille which is what I should've used, but 
> I didn't know it would do that.  Similarly, a blind person was asking 
> me a question and the sentence ended with "en?" which was supposed to 
> be "enough."  I'm not sure why the notetakers have difficulty in back 
> translation, but it seems to be common.  NFBTrans didn't seem to have 
> that problem.
>
> Also like you, I'm not a regular Braille reader nowadays and I usually 
> don't have the screen reader read out punctuation. However, what I 
> think you aren't realizing is that since you know Braille, you don't 
> need to know where the punctuation is.  In other words, I know that a 
> period goes at the end of a sentence which is a statement and a 
> question mark goes at the end of a question.  I don't hear passages of 
> text as one continuous stream of words with a short pause separating 
> them sometimes, if that makes sense.  If I never knew Braille, I 
> wouldn't know that.  I can tell by how you write that you at least 
> learned some Braille and know enough to form a proper sentence.  I've 
> seen several blind people who use no punctuation at all and sound 
> uneducated in their writing style.  I'm not saying that everything 
> needs to be 100% perfect, especially nowadays with email and text 
> messages, but it's downright confusing when there is no separation 
> between sentences and thoughts.
>
> As a final note, I'm terrible at reading aloud and avoid it when 
> possible. While I do know Braille, I'm not the fastest or best Braille 
> reader by any means.  I'm afraid I've got out of practice because I 
> rely so much more on speech and DAISY books nowadays.
>
> On 4/9/2013 1:34 PM, Hart Larry wrote:
>> Well, I know in advance my comments are an alternative. First, when this
>> thread began, I figured it was off-topic and Kirk would probably put 
>> an end
>> to it. On another hand, as American English spelling is not a consistant
>> science, it would seem unlikely to just memerize thousands of spellings.
>> Sure when I was younger, Braille was nearly an only way to read, but 
>> in the
>> late50s I was quite interested in Baseball and the Space Program, but 
>> mostly
>> it were text books which were available. I was never a good or 
>> comfortable
>> Braille reader. About a only time I read outloud is at our anual Pass 
>> Over
>> Seder.
>> I know there are both sighted-and-blind folks who are phonatical about
>> spelling-and-punctuation. I look at especially spelling-and-moreover 
>> typing
>> as a way to convey ideas-and-concepts. I know it drives some crazy if 
>> I use
>> a number in the middle of a word.
>> Growing up with Braille also teaches bad habbits in typing. For example,
>> when I would type an amount of money, I would type symbols of "dollar
>> sign""number sign" followed by an amount.
>> As an unconventional, I really like having dashes separating some 
>> words, I
>> guess because I don't really like dead-air and so a dash would 
>> symbolicly
>> keep sound alive.
>> In conclusion, since many of us are not always writing executive 
>> business
>> letters, we're symply conveying opinions-and-information. Sure getting a
>> wrong letter in an url, well, thats important. As a strictly speech
>> listener, I try when I can to hear as little punctuation as I can. I 
>> think
>> when I've tried spelling checkers in Pine, they were harder to navigate.
>> Thanks for listening.
>> Hart
> _______________________________________________
> Speakup mailing list
> Speakup@linux-speakup.org
> http://linux-speakup.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/speakup

Re: Dumb post to the Stargardts Facebook group

[Janina Sajka]

The convention of putting two spaces following the period which
concludes a sentence is a hold over from the days of typewriters. Of a
necessity these were unable to adjust the spacing of chars. Everything
was monowidth, i.e. a 'w' and an 'i' took the same amount of space left
to right.

The console is still like that I think. Actually, I'm not 100% certain,
because I can't see it, but what else does 64 rows by 175 columns (my
current screen size) mean?

With the advent of GUI, we've been able to adopt fonts and typographic
conventions that can adjust chars on screen and on paper printouts. The
'i' no longer need occupy the same space left to right as the 'w.'
Therefore, it's no longer the convention to end a sentence with two
space chars. 

Janina

Albert Sten-Clanton writes:
> Greg, I learned to put two spaces after a period ending a sentence when I
> learned to type.  I don't know if conventions have changed, but that's why I
> do it.  
> 
> Al 
> 
> -----Original Message-----
> From: Speakup [mailto:speakup-bounces@linux-speakup.org] On Behalf Of
> Gregory Nowak
> Sent: Tuesday, April 09, 2013 7:20 PM
> To: Speakup is a screen review system for Linux.
> Subject: Re: Dumb post to the Stargardts Facebook group
> 
> On Tue, Apr 09, 2013 at 07:08:39AM -0700, Tony Baechler wrote:
> > I always proofread everything before I post, so hopefully my posts are 
> > reasonably free of errors.  Most people don't.  It's amazing how many 
> > mistakes you can catch with 30 seconds of proofreading.
> 
> I think a part of this for blind and sighted alike is laziness. I know a few
> people who are just content to type what they have to say, and just hit
> send, because they don't feel like reading through what they wrote. These
> are people who are sighted and blind. I'm not assuming here either. When I
> mentioned this to them, this is what they told me, they don't feel like
> reading through casual writing. Unfortunately, I've looked through their
> professional writing too, and they are invariably surprised by the amount of
> errors I point out to them in such pieces of writing.
> 
> On another note, I noticed a number of blind people, including yourself
> putting two spaces in between every sentence. I put in just one, because
> this is how I learned it in braille, and it just stuck. Is there some sort
> of significance to the two spaces thing, or is it just personal preference?
> 
> Greg
> 
> 
> --
> web site: http://www.gregn.net
> gpg public key: http://www.gregn.net/pubkey.asc
> skype: gregn1
> (authorization required, add me to your contacts list first)
> 
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-- 

Janina Sajka,	Phone:	+1.443.300.2200
			sip:janina@asterisk.rednote.net
		Email:	janina@rednote.net

Linux Foundation Fellow
Executive Chair, Accessibility Workgroup:	http://a11y.org

The World Wide Web Consortium (W3C), Web Accessibility Initiative (WAI)
Chair,	Protocols & Formats	http://www.w3.org/wai/pf
	Indie UI			http://www.w3.org/WAI/IndieUI/

Re: Dumb post to the Stargardts Facebook group

[Glenn]

I think that the two spaces started going away with texting, where you want 
to use all the characters available.
I still do the double space, because I feel it is proper.
My mom still uses the small letter L for representing the #1, which is a 
hold-over from typewriter days.  Nobody visual would notice the difference, 
but screenreaders sure do.
I thought she made a mistake when I first noticed this in a message she 
sent, and when it happened again, I realized what she was doing.
Glenn
----- Original Message ----- 
From: "Janina Sajka" <janina@rednote.net>
To: "Speakup is a screen review system for Linux." 
<speakup@linux-speakup.org>
Sent: Friday, May 10, 2013 12:37 PM
Subject: Re: Dumb post to the Stargardts Facebook group


The convention of putting two spaces following the period which
concludes a sentence is a hold over from the days of typewriters. Of a
necessity these were unable to adjust the spacing of chars. Everything
was monowidth, i.e. a 'w' and an 'i' took the same amount of space left
to right.

The console is still like that I think. Actually, I'm not 100% certain,
because I can't see it, but what else does 64 rows by 175 columns (my
current screen size) mean?

With the advent of GUI, we've been able to adopt fonts and typographic
conventions that can adjust chars on screen and on paper printouts. The
'i' no longer need occupy the same space left to right as the 'w.'
Therefore, it's no longer the convention to end a sentence with two
space chars.

Janina

Albert Sten-Clanton writes:
> Greg, I learned to put two spaces after a period ending a sentence when I
> learned to type.  I don't know if conventions have changed, but that's why 
> I
> do it.
>
> Al
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: Speakup [mailto:speakup-bounces@linux-speakup.org] On Behalf Of
> Gregory Nowak
> Sent: Tuesday, April 09, 2013 7:20 PM
> To: Speakup is a screen review system for Linux.
> Subject: Re: Dumb post to the Stargardts Facebook group
>
> On Tue, Apr 09, 2013 at 07:08:39AM -0700, Tony Baechler wrote:
> > I always proofread everything before I post, so hopefully my posts are
> > reasonably free of errors.  Most people don't.  It's amazing how many
> > mistakes you can catch with 30 seconds of proofreading.
>
> I think a part of this for blind and sighted alike is laziness. I know a 
> few
> people who are just content to type what they have to say, and just hit
> send, because they don't feel like reading through what they wrote. These
> are people who are sighted and blind. I'm not assuming here either. When I
> mentioned this to them, this is what they told me, they don't feel like
> reading through casual writing. Unfortunately, I've looked through their
> professional writing too, and they are invariably surprised by the amount 
> of
> errors I point out to them in such pieces of writing.
>
> On another note, I noticed a number of blind people, including yourself
> putting two spaces in between every sentence. I put in just one, because
> this is how I learned it in braille, and it just stuck. Is there some sort
> of significance to the two spaces thing, or is it just personal 
> preference?
>
> Greg
>
>
> --
> web site: http://www.gregn.net
> gpg public key: http://www.gregn.net/pubkey.asc
> skype: gregn1
> (authorization required, add me to your contacts list first)
>
> --
> Free domains: http://www.eu.org/ or mail dns-manager@EU.org
> _______________________________________________
> Speakup mailing list
> Speakup@linux-speakup.org
> http://linux-speakup.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/speakup
>
> _______________________________________________
> Speakup mailing list
> Speakup@linux-speakup.org
> http://linux-speakup.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/speakup

-- 

Janina Sajka, Phone: +1.443.300.2200
sip:janina@asterisk.rednote.net
Email: janina@rednote.net

Linux Foundation Fellow
Executive Chair, Accessibility Workgroup: http://a11y.org

The World Wide Web Consortium (W3C), Web Accessibility Initiative (WAI)
Chair, Protocols & Formats http://www.w3.org/wai/pf
Indie UI http://www.w3.org/WAI/IndieUI/

_______________________________________________
Speakup mailing list
Speakup@linux-speakup.org
http://linux-speakup.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/speakup 

Re: Dumb post to the Stargardts Facebook group

[Hart Larry]

Well Glen, for me where its really confusing on British sites where they list a 
currincy with an l instead of a number 1.
A funny final note, some years ago I had written a money amount as $# my friend 
was perplexted why I would type a dollar sign number sign?  Well, certainly 
when I did read Braille, before they ruined it, thats the way it were written.
Hart

Re: Dumb post to the Stargardts Facebook group

[Glenn]

Larry,
I tend to use the dollar sign for sighted folks, and I write the word Dollar 
after the value for fellow Blind readers, only because I know that with a 
screenreader, I think it is more intelligible to hear 3 dollars instead of 
$3.
Glenn
----- Original Message ----- 
From: "Hart Larry" <chime@hubert-humphrey.com>
To: "Glenn" <glennervin@gmail.com>; "Speakup is a screen review system for 
Linux." <speakup@linux-speakup.org>
Sent: Friday, May 10, 2013 12:58 PM
Subject: Re: Dumb post to the Stargardts Facebook group


Well Glen, for me where its really confusing on British sites where they 
list a
currincy with an l instead of a number 1.
A funny final note, some years ago I had written a money amount as $# my 
friend
was perplexted why I would type a dollar sign number sign?  Well, certainly
when I did read Braille, before they ruined it, thats the way it were 
written.
Hart

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Re: Dumb post to the Stargardts Facebook group

[Tony Baechler]

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Hash: SHA256

Yes, and I see this in some scanned books before OCR got better.  A long
time ago, they had the complete stories of Sherlock Holmes online.  They
do now, but now the errors have been corrected.  For whatever reason, the
upper case I was replaced by the letter l, so that Doctor Watson often
would start a sentence with "l did something."  I got used to it, but
found it odd.  Also, as NLS in the US goes through the old analog books
and converts them, I see the letter "l" in place of the number 1 in the
annotations, like "l981."

On 5/10/2013 10:49 AM, Glenn wrote:
> I think that the two spaces started going away with texting, where you
> want to use all the characters available. I still do the double space,
> because I feel it is proper. My mom still uses the small letter L for
> representing the #1, which is a hold-over from typewriter days.  Nobody
> visual would notice the difference, but screenreaders sure do. I
> thought she made a mistake when I first noticed this in a message she 
> sent, and when it happened again, I realized what she was doing. Glenn
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