* Speakup Requirements
@ Janina Sajka
` covici
` Chris Brannon
0 siblings, 2 replies; 10+ messages in thread
From: Janina Sajka @ UTC (permalink / raw)
To: Speakup is a screen review system for Linux.
The conversation about the future of Speakup is important as witnessed
by the flurry of mail here this past few hours. However, we've also
strayed into the usual range of related issues. I'd like to put in a
place holder for a fundamental question:
What are our console screen reader requirements?
We should, imo, have community consensus on our requirements, probably
backed by use cases, than we can clearly communicate.
Had we had such back in the mid 2000's, pulse might have been designed
better. I say this about pulse, because I don't believe it meets one key
requirement we have, low-latency response, char by typed char, word by
word, etc.
To my mind we'd be better served by jack where latency and high priority
execution are core values.
So, what are our requirements?
1.) Latency. Very low, and highly responsive feedback in the
consumption of keyborad input, whether into the system or as screen
review.
2.) Access to on screen messages as early and late as possible, as
close to boot, and as late in shutdown as possible.
Then, if we have to move to console. What we we like that we have not
had since Kirk first published his kernel patch back 20 years ago?
Here's my top ask:
A. Context aware profiles. DOS had this in spades. You could know
what application had focus and adjust the screen reader behavior
accordingly. ASAP and Vocal-Eyes were brilliant at responding to
WordPerfect, Commo, etc., etc. If we're going to console space, let's
make sure we can be app focus aware.
What else?
Janina
John G. Heim writes:
> I've never seen a server without a serial port.
>
>
>
> On 10/08/14 14:43, Kyle wrote:
> >It does appear to me that something like this will force more of Speakup
> >into userspace. However, unlike others, I'm not entirely opposed to the
> >idea of Speakup leaving the kernel, and I think it can only be a good
> >thing, especially on newer machines, where dedicated serial ports are
> >all but obsolete, and software in userspace can take better advantage of
> >things like Pulseaudio and libusb, meaning more extensive software and
> >hardware speech support. For example, there would no longer be a need
> >for kernel modules to control speech synthesizers, and there would no
> >longer be a need to have external userspace connectors such as Espeakup,
> >as the entire Speakup screen reader could be moved into userspace, and
> >anything that interfaces with a speech synthesizer could be either
> >internal or could be a library that interfaces with a speech API like
> >speech-dispatcher or others. Even better, if Speakup is moved entirely
> >into userspace, it could give rise to far better access to consoles on
> >*BSD and other Unix operating systems, as the code could be far more
> >portable between operating systems when it doesn't have to be tied into
> >a specific kernel. Just my $0.02 BSD. That's Bahamian dollars lol.
> >~Kyle
> >http://kyle.tk/
> >
> _______________________________________________
> Speakup mailing list
> Speakup@linux-speakup.org
> http://linux-speakup.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/speakup
--
Janina Sajka, Phone: +1.443.300.2200
sip:janina@asterisk.rednote.net
Email: janina@rednote.net
Linux Foundation Fellow
Executive Chair, Accessibility Workgroup: http://a11y.org
The World Wide Web Consortium (W3C), Web Accessibility Initiative (WAI)
Chair, Protocols & Formats http://www.w3.org/wai/pf
Indie UI http://www.w3.org/WAI/IndieUI/
^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 10+ messages in thread
* Re: Speakup Requirements
Speakup Requirements Janina Sajka
@ ` covici
` Cleverson Casarin Uliana
` Chris Brannon
1 sibling, 1 reply; 10+ messages in thread
From: covici @ UTC (permalink / raw)
To: Speakup is a screen review system for Linux.
For me, two things stand out -- some way to read a large buffer and have
the cursor stop where the speech stops talking and a find command to
find text on the screen. The first speakup already has, the second
should not be too difficult.
Janina Sajka <janina@rednote.net> wrote:
> The conversation about the future of Speakup is important as witnessed
> by the flurry of mail here this past few hours. However, we've also
> strayed into the usual range of related issues. I'd like to put in a
> place holder for a fundamental question:
>
> What are our console screen reader requirements?
>
> We should, imo, have community consensus on our requirements, probably
> backed by use cases, than we can clearly communicate.
>
> Had we had such back in the mid 2000's, pulse might have been designed
> better. I say this about pulse, because I don't believe it meets one key
> requirement we have, low-latency response, char by typed char, word by
> word, etc.
>
> To my mind we'd be better served by jack where latency and high priority
> execution are core values.
>
> So, what are our requirements?
>
> 1.) Latency. Very low, and highly responsive feedback in the
> consumption of keyborad input, whether into the system or as screen
> review.
>
> 2.) Access to on screen messages as early and late as possible, as
> close to boot, and as late in shutdown as possible.
>
> Then, if we have to move to console. What we we like that we have not
> had since Kirk first published his kernel patch back 20 years ago?
> Here's my top ask:
>
> A. Context aware profiles. DOS had this in spades. You could know
> what application had focus and adjust the screen reader behavior
> accordingly. ASAP and Vocal-Eyes were brilliant at responding to
> WordPerfect, Commo, etc., etc. If we're going to console space, let's
> make sure we can be app focus aware.
>
> What else?
>
> Janina
>
> John G. Heim writes:
> > I've never seen a server without a serial port.
> >
> >
> >
> > On 10/08/14 14:43, Kyle wrote:
> > >It does appear to me that something like this will force more of Speakup
> > >into userspace. However, unlike others, I'm not entirely opposed to the
> > >idea of Speakup leaving the kernel, and I think it can only be a good
> > >thing, especially on newer machines, where dedicated serial ports are
> > >all but obsolete, and software in userspace can take better advantage of
> > >things like Pulseaudio and libusb, meaning more extensive software and
> > >hardware speech support. For example, there would no longer be a need
> > >for kernel modules to control speech synthesizers, and there would no
> > >longer be a need to have external userspace connectors such as Espeakup,
> > >as the entire Speakup screen reader could be moved into userspace, and
> > >anything that interfaces with a speech synthesizer could be either
> > >internal or could be a library that interfaces with a speech API like
> > >speech-dispatcher or others. Even better, if Speakup is moved entirely
> > >into userspace, it could give rise to far better access to consoles on
> > >*BSD and other Unix operating systems, as the code could be far more
> > >portable between operating systems when it doesn't have to be tied into
> > >a specific kernel. Just my $0.02 BSD. That's Bahamian dollars lol.
> > >~Kyle
> > >http://kyle.tk/
> > >
> > _______________________________________________
> > Speakup mailing list
> > Speakup@linux-speakup.org
> > http://linux-speakup.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/speakup
>
> --
>
> Janina Sajka, Phone: +1.443.300.2200
> sip:janina@asterisk.rednote.net
> Email: janina@rednote.net
>
> Linux Foundation Fellow
> Executive Chair, Accessibility Workgroup: http://a11y.org
>
> The World Wide Web Consortium (W3C), Web Accessibility Initiative (WAI)
> Chair, Protocols & Formats http://www.w3.org/wai/pf
> Indie UI http://www.w3.org/WAI/IndieUI/
>
> _______________________________________________
> Speakup mailing list
> Speakup@linux-speakup.org
> http://linux-speakup.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/speakup
--
Your life is like a penny. You're going to lose it. The question is:
How do
you spend it?
John Covici
covici@ccs.covici.com
^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 10+ messages in thread
* Re: Speakup Requirements
` covici
@ ` Cleverson Casarin Uliana
0 siblings, 0 replies; 10+ messages in thread
From: Cleverson Casarin Uliana @ UTC (permalink / raw)
To: Speakup is a screen review system for Linux.
Janina and Covici: I suggest you to try jupiter, as it has both custom
profiles and a consistent continuous and synchronized reading.
Greetings,
Cleverson
^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 10+ messages in thread
* Re: Speakup Requirements
Speakup Requirements Janina Sajka
` covici
@ ` Chris Brannon
` covici
1 sibling, 1 reply; 10+ messages in thread
From: Chris Brannon @ UTC (permalink / raw)
To: Speakup is a screen review system for Linux.
Janina Sajka <janina@rednote.net> writes:
> What are our console screen reader requirements?
Scriptability. I don't think it's a hard requirement for a console
screenreader, but I suspect that if it is scriptable, people will find
plenty of uses for it, especially when combined with the context
awareness you discussed.
-- Chris
^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 10+ messages in thread
* Re: Speakup Requirements
` Chris Brannon
@ ` covici
` Kyle
0 siblings, 1 reply; 10+ messages in thread
From: covici @ UTC (permalink / raw)
To: Speakup is a screen review system for Linux.
Can't disagree with that, but I would hope its not a language of its
own, but some kind of code like .net or something to do the scripting.
Chris Brannon <chris@the-brannons.com> wrote:
> Janina Sajka <janina@rednote.net> writes:
>
> > What are our console screen reader requirements?
>
> Scriptability. I don't think it's a hard requirement for a console
> screenreader, but I suspect that if it is scriptable, people will find
> plenty of uses for it, especially when combined with the context
> awareness you discussed.
>
> -- Chris
> _______________________________________________
> Speakup mailing list
> Speakup@linux-speakup.org
> http://linux-speakup.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/speakup
--
Your life is like a penny. You're going to lose it. The question is:
How do
you spend it?
John Covici
covici@ccs.covici.com
^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 10+ messages in thread
* Re: Speakup Requirements
` covici
@ ` Kyle
` Littlefield, Tyler
` covici
0 siblings, 2 replies; 10+ messages in thread
From: Kyle @ UTC (permalink / raw)
To: speakup
According to covici@ccs.covici.com:
# Can't disagree with that, but I would hope its not a language of its
# own, but some kind of code like .net or something to do the scripting.
Seriously? .net? So you would force a console screen reader to depend on
Mono? Ouch! My box is begging and pleading for you to stop!
AAAAAAAAWWWWWWWWW! That hurrerererererererts!
In all seriousness though, a commonly used scripting language is
probably the best option, but both Python and Perl are far more widely
recognized among Linux users than Mono, and both appear to be quite a
bit less resource intensive.
~Kyle
http://kyle.tk/
--
"Kyle? ... She calls her cake, Kyle?"
Out of This World, season 2 episode 21 - "The Amazing Evie"
^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 10+ messages in thread
* Re: Speakup Requirements
` Kyle
@ ` Littlefield, Tyler
` covici
1 sibling, 0 replies; 10+ messages in thread
From: Littlefield, Tyler @ UTC (permalink / raw)
To: Speakup is a screen review system for Linux.
He said like .net. No need to make stupid synthasizer sounds to make
your point, you have english and hopefully a decent vocabulary for that.
On 10/9/2014 6:36 PM, Kyle wrote:
> According to covici@ccs.covici.com:
> # Can't disagree with that, but I would hope its not a language of its
> # own, but some kind of code like .net or something to do the scripting.
>
> Seriously? .net? So you would force a console screen reader to depend on
> Mono? Ouch! My box is begging and pleading for you to stop!
> AAAAAAAAWWWWWWWWW! That hurrerererererererts!
>
> In all seriousness though, a commonly used scripting language is
> probably the best option, but both Python and Perl are far more widely
> recognized among Linux users than Mono, and both appear to be quite a
> bit less resource intensive.
> ~Kyle
> http://kyle.tk/
--
Take care,
Ty
http://tds-solutions.net
He that will not reason is a bigot; he that cannot reason is a fool; he that dares not reason is a slave.
^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 10+ messages in thread
* Re: Speakup Requirements
` Kyle
` Littlefield, Tyler
@ ` covici
` Littlefield, Tyler
` Cleverson Casarin Uliana
1 sibling, 2 replies; 10+ messages in thread
From: covici @ UTC (permalink / raw)
To: Speakup is a screen review system for Linux.
Well, Perl would be OK, but you would have to develop an api, so .net is
a nice library for that, but Perl is fine if you like that -- Python is
not as good, at least for me, I don't like the indent dependency.
Kyle <kyle4jesus@gmail.com> wrote:
> According to covici@ccs.covici.com:
> # Can't disagree with that, but I would hope its not a language of its
> # own, but some kind of code like .net or something to do the scripting.
>
> Seriously? .net? So you would force a console screen reader to depend on
> Mono? Ouch! My box is begging and pleading for you to stop!
> AAAAAAAAWWWWWWWWW! That hurrerererererererts!
>
> In all seriousness though, a commonly used scripting language is
> probably the best option, but both Python and Perl are far more widely
> recognized among Linux users than Mono, and both appear to be quite a
> bit less resource intensive.
> ~Kyle
> http://kyle.tk/
> --
> "Kyle? ... She calls her cake, Kyle?"
> Out of This World, season 2 episode 21 - "The Amazing Evie"
> _______________________________________________
> Speakup mailing list
> Speakup@linux-speakup.org
> http://linux-speakup.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/speakup
--
Your life is like a penny. You're going to lose it. The question is:
How do
you spend it?
John Covici
covici@ccs.covici.com
^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 10+ messages in thread
* Re: Speakup Requirements
` covici
@ ` Littlefield, Tyler
` Cleverson Casarin Uliana
1 sibling, 0 replies; 10+ messages in thread
From: Littlefield, Tyler @ UTC (permalink / raw)
To: Speakup is a screen review system for Linux.
i'm really confused. I thought you were just wanting something kind of
like .net. You have to develop an API with whatever language you use.
It's about binding the language around what's already there and exposing
functions. Hopefully you already have functions that you just need to
wrap. But .net isn't really any more suited to doing that than say, any
other language that can be embedded. Python, perl, lua, ruby etc all
serve that purpose and with much much less overhead.
On 10/9/2014 7:31 PM, covici@ccs.covici.com wrote:
> Well, Perl would be OK, but you would have to develop an api, so .net is
> a nice library for that, but Perl is fine if you like that -- Python is
> not as good, at least for me, I don't like the indent dependency.
>
> Kyle <kyle4jesus@gmail.com> wrote:
>
>> According to covici@ccs.covici.com:
>> # Can't disagree with that, but I would hope its not a language of its
>> # own, but some kind of code like .net or something to do the scripting.
>>
>> Seriously? .net? So you would force a console screen reader to depend on
>> Mono? Ouch! My box is begging and pleading for you to stop!
>> AAAAAAAAWWWWWWWWW! That hurrerererererererts!
>>
>> In all seriousness though, a commonly used scripting language is
>> probably the best option, but both Python and Perl are far more widely
>> recognized among Linux users than Mono, and both appear to be quite a
>> bit less resource intensive.
>> ~Kyle
>> http://kyle.tk/
>> --
>> "Kyle? ... She calls her cake, Kyle?"
>> Out of This World, season 2 episode 21 - "The Amazing Evie"
>> _______________________________________________
>> Speakup mailing list
>> Speakup@linux-speakup.org
>> http://linux-speakup.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/speakup
--
Take care,
Ty
http://tds-solutions.net
He that will not reason is a bigot; he that cannot reason is a fool; he that dares not reason is a slave.
^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 10+ messages in thread
* Re: Speakup Requirements
` covici
` Littlefield, Tyler
@ ` Cleverson Casarin Uliana
1 sibling, 0 replies; 10+ messages in thread
From: Cleverson Casarin Uliana @ UTC (permalink / raw)
To: Speakup is a screen review system for Linux.
Covici writes:
> Well, Perl would be OK,
I vote for lua; easier for non-programmers to learn.
Cleverson
^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 10+ messages in thread
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Speakup Requirements Janina Sajka
` covici
` Cleverson Casarin Uliana
` Chris Brannon
` covici
` Kyle
` Littlefield, Tyler
` covici
` Littlefield, Tyler
` Cleverson Casarin Uliana
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