routine debian upgrades, a few questions

routine debian upgrades, a few questions

[Charles Hallenbeck]

I have a couple of questions someone may be able to answer for me. I am 
using Debian sid (unstable) and do regular upgrades several times a 
week, and some terms appear that I do not understand during that 
process.

1. Early in the "apt-get upgrade" process, it sometimes shows me 
packages that are "kept back" and are therefore not upgraded. Why are 
these kept back? I did not explicitly ask for them to be kept back.

2. Maybe this only occurs when installing a new package rather than 
during upgrades, but sometimes when doing an "apt-get install" for a 
package, it first shows me "extra packages" that will be installed. That 
one I understand. But then it may show me "Suggested packages" and 
Recommended packages" which I might consider also installing. What are 
these last two? suggested and recommended? For a while I followed up 
each install with additional installs of both the suggested and 
recommended packages, which of course led to other suggested and 
recommended packages, and I am sure I could easily have done without 
most of that stuff. Which are more important, the suggested list or the 
recommended list?

These seem to be policy questions which I have not found discussed in 
the docs I have read. Advice appreciated, including advice about what 
FM's to R.

Chuck


-- 
The Moon is Waxing Gibbous (68% of Full)
But you can still get downloads from http://www.mhcable.com/~chuckh

Re: routine debian upgrades, a few questions

[Thomas Stivers]

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On Thu, Jun 16, 2005 at 06:10:43 PM -0400, Charles Hallenbeck wrote:
> I have a couple of questions someone may be able to answer for me. I am 
> using Debian sid (unstable) and do regular upgrades several times a 
> week, and some terms appear that I do not understand during that 
> process.
> 
> 1. Early in the "apt-get upgrade" process, it sometimes shows me 
> packages that are "kept back" and are therefore not upgraded. Why are 
> these kept back? I did not explicitly ask for them to be kept back.

When you are running unstable you are using the packages as they are
entering the big three debian distributions for the first time. Often
packages which you have installed have upgrades but those upgrades
depend on packages which are not available from the sid repository. You
just have to be patient and those dependencies usually resolve
themselves in time when the packages which the package you want to
upgrade itself gets upgraded. Haha did that muddy the waters enough for
you?

Just remember that "Sid breaks toys" so you are going to have weirdness
when you run unstable. Personally I think the problems I encounter serve
as learning experiences and keep me on my toes.

> 2. Maybe this only occurs when installing a new package rather than 
> during upgrades, but sometimes when doing an "apt-get install" for a 
> package, it first shows me "extra packages" that will be installed. That 
> one I understand. But then it may show me "Suggested packages" and 
> Recommended packages" which I might consider also installing. What are 
> these last two? suggested and recommended? For a while I followed up 
> each install with additional installs of both the suggested and 
> recommended packages, which of course led to other suggested and 
> recommended packages, and I am sure I could easily have done without 
> most of that stuff. Which are more important, the suggested list or the 
> recommended list?

I think these lists are just what they claim to be, the suggested
packages are ones the package maintainer suggests you have installed to
get the most out of the one you are installing. These often include
things like script packages for irc clients, plugins for music players,
Etc. The recommended packages are less likely to be parts of the
original package, but just things the maintainer thinks you would want
if you wanted the original package.

> These seem to be policy questions which I have not found discussed in 
> the docs I have read. Advice appreciated, including advice about what 
> FM's to R.

The apt Howto is out there somewhere and answers a lot of these kinds of
questions and so much more. I haven't read it through entirely, but it
has a lot of information about the topics you asked about.

If you go ahead and read it, then I will be able to ask questions about
it and won't have to read the whole thing. *chuckle*

HTH

- -- 
"Debugging is twice as hard as writing the code in the first place.
Therefore, if you write the code as cleverly as possible, you are,
by definition, not smart enough to debug it." - Brian W. Kernighan

Thomas Stivers	e-mail: stivers_t@tomass.dyndns.org
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Re: routine debian upgrades, a few questions

[Kenny Hitt]

Hi.

First, be careful with your upgrades for the next few months running Sid.
Sarge was released last week, so major changes are happening to Sid.
For the next few months, Sid will live up to the name unstable.
Packages such as gcc, libc6, and dpkg itself will be upgraded.  The
developer of dpkg has already posted that there will be major changes
and the dpkg program should be considered unstable for at least the next
3 monts.
Remember, apt-get is just a front end for dpkg.

Packages will be held back because they depend on a version of another
package that hasn't been uploaded yet.  This can also happen if you are
just running upgrade and not dist-upgrade.  Upgrade only upgrades
installed packages, while dist-upgrade can remove and install packages
along with upgrading.  Dist-upgrade is sometimes required because of
changes to package dependencys.

As far as suggested and recommended packages, I usually note the names
and wait to install them if the apt-get install command I ran still
causes problems with my current task.
Usually, the recomended packages are the ones I need.  I've never found
clear documentation of the difference between the two either.  It
sometimes seems to be a subject for debate with Debian developers.

Suggests and recomends are fields in a .deb Debian package.
The maintainer of the package decided that these other packages would be
helpful in doing what ever task the main package is supposed to do.

Hope this helps.
          Kenny

On Thu, Jun 16, 2005 at 06:10:43PM -0400, Charles Hallenbeck wrote:
> I have a couple of questions someone may be able to answer for me. I am 
> using Debian sid (unstable) and do regular upgrades several times a 
> week, and some terms appear that I do not understand during that 
> process.
> 
> 1. Early in the "apt-get upgrade" process, it sometimes shows me 
> packages that are "kept back" and are therefore not upgraded. Why are 
> these kept back? I did not explicitly ask for them to be kept back.
> 
> 2. Maybe this only occurs when installing a new package rather than 
> during upgrades, but sometimes when doing an "apt-get install" for a 
> package, it first shows me "extra packages" that will be installed. That 
> one I understand. But then it may show me "Suggested packages" and 
> Recommended packages" which I might consider also installing. What are 
> these last two? suggested and recommended? For a while I followed up 
> each install with additional installs of both the suggested and 
> recommended packages, which of course led to other suggested and 
> recommended packages, and I am sure I could easily have done without 
> most of that stuff. Which are more important, the suggested list or the 
> recommended list?
> 
> These seem to be policy questions which I have not found discussed in 
> the docs I have read. Advice appreciated, including advice about what 
> FM's to R.
> 
> Chuck
> 
> 
> -- 
> The Moon is Waxing Gibbous (68% of Full)
> But you can still get downloads from http://www.mhcable.com/~chuckh
> 
> _______________________________________________
> Speakup mailing list
> Speakup@braille.uwo.ca
> http://speech.braille.uwo.ca/mailman/listinfo/speakup

Re: routine debian upgrades, a few questions

[Sean McMahon]

The apt howto gives some good methods for troubleshooting the upgrade process
when need be.    Whether you want the recommended or suggested packages depends
on your situation and the package.  That's why I like to use aptitude to view
what the new recommendations and suggestions are.  For example, emacspeak
doesn't depend on emacspeak-ss which has most of the speech servers.  But,
emacspeak-ss is in one of the recommended or suggested lists.  Some of the
decktalks are available to install within emacspeak installation, so users of
those don't necessarily need the speechserver for the braille'nspeak which is
one of the servers under emacspeak-ss.  Documentation packages usually come in
the suggested list.
----- Original Message ----- 
From: "Charles Hallenbeck" <chuckh@hhs48.com>
To: "Speakup Distribution List" <speakup@speech.braille.uwo.ca>
Sent: Thursday, June 16, 2005 3:10 PM
Subject: routine debian upgrades, a few questions


> I have a couple of questions someone may be able to answer for me. I am
> using Debian sid (unstable) and do regular upgrades several times a
> week, and some terms appear that I do not understand during that
> process.
>
> 1. Early in the "apt-get upgrade" process, it sometimes shows me
> packages that are "kept back" and are therefore not upgraded. Why are
> these kept back? I did not explicitly ask for them to be kept back.
>
> 2. Maybe this only occurs when installing a new package rather than
> during upgrades, but sometimes when doing an "apt-get install" for a
> package, it first shows me "extra packages" that will be installed. That
> one I understand. But then it may show me "Suggested packages" and
> Recommended packages" which I might consider also installing. What are
> these last two? suggested and recommended? For a while I followed up
> each install with additional installs of both the suggested and
> recommended packages, which of course led to other suggested and
> recommended packages, and I am sure I could easily have done without
> most of that stuff. Which are more important, the suggested list or the
> recommended list?
>
> These seem to be policy questions which I have not found discussed in
> the docs I have read. Advice appreciated, including advice about what
> FM's to R.
>
> Chuck
>
>
> -- 
> The Moon is Waxing Gibbous (68% of Full)
> But you can still get downloads from http://www.mhcable.com/~chuckh
>
> _______________________________________________
> Speakup mailing list
> Speakup@braille.uwo.ca
> http://speech.braille.uwo.ca/mailman/listinfo/speakup

Re: routine debian upgrades, a few questions

[Charles Hallenbeck]

Thanks for the tips. I have been subscribed to the debian users list 
(and others) but am slipping behind in reading the postings. They are 
running around 200 messages a day, plus or minus. And I just cannot 
bring myself to delete stuff without reading it first! Bad habit.


-- 
The Moon is Waxing Gibbous (69% of Full)
But you can still get downloads from http://www.mhcable.com/~chuckh

Re: routine debian upgrades, a few questions

[Charles Hallenbeck]

Another helpful thing I have found to do is to install apt-listbugs and 
apt-listchanges, which screen the packages as they are upgraded, showing 
bug reports on known bugs and the change.log files, and giving you an 
option to bail out of an upgrade before proceeding. Of course not all 
bugs are known, but at least those that are can be used to guide the 
upgrade process or limit its risk.


-- 
The Moon is Waxing Gibbous (69% of Full)
But you can still get downloads from http://www.mhcable.com/~chuckh

Re: routine debian upgrades, a few questions

[Kenny Hitt]

Hi.

I subscribe to the announce lists since they are much lower volume.
Lists like debian-devel-announce, debian-security-announce, and
debian-news.

I also subscribe to other lists specific to parts of Debian like
debian-gtk-gnome, debian-kernel,  and
debian-accessibility.  I couldn't handle the volume from debian-user.

          Kenny
	  
On Thu, Jun 16, 2005 at 07:22:29PM -0400, Charles Hallenbeck wrote:
> Thanks for the tips. I have been subscribed to the debian users list 
> (and others) but am slipping behind in reading the postings. They are 
> running around 200 messages a day, plus or minus. And I just cannot 
> bring myself to delete stuff without reading it first! Bad habit.
> 
> 
> -- 
> The Moon is Waxing Gibbous (69% of Full)
> But you can still get downloads from http://www.mhcable.com/~chuckh
> 
> _______________________________________________
> Speakup mailing list
> Speakup@braille.uwo.ca
> http://speech.braille.uwo.ca/mailman/listinfo/speakup