editors

editors

[Michael Whapples]

Hello,
I am currently looking for a better editor than my current favourite
(nano). I have just been doing some bash scripting training, and in that
they were teaching using vi (the training was for people who may never
have used unix before), but I have to say I just wasn't getting on with
vi. How does speakup work with vi best? I found it not very good. People
were saying to me that nano isn't so powerful (and I know what they are
getting at), so I am thinking about emacs (or emacspeak). It seems more
to my liking than vi, but I have a few questions about it. If I were to
use emacspeak, how is it best to stop conflicts of speakup and emacspeak
wanting to use the same synth (an apollo in my case)? Or is it good to
use emacs with speakup (so doing away with emacspeak? Or alternatively,
is there any other editors people might suggest.

From
Michael Whapples

Re: editors

[Chuck Hallenbeck]

-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----
Hash: SHA1

Michael,

Before moving to emacs, give "ne" a spin. I have abandoned nano in
favor of ne and like it a lot. "ne" stands for "nice editor".

Chuck


On Thu, Nov 01, 2007 at 12:59:52PM +0000, Michael Whapples wrote:
> Hello,
> I am currently looking for a better editor than my current favourite
> (nano). I have just been doing some bash scripting training, and in that
> they were teaching using vi (the training was for people who may never
> have used unix before), but I have to say I just wasn't getting on with
> vi. How does speakup work with vi best? I found it not very good. People
> were saying to me that nano isn't so powerful (and I know what they are
> getting at), so I am thinking about emacs (or emacspeak). It seems more
> to my liking than vi, but I have a few questions about it. If I were to
> use emacspeak, how is it best to stop conflicts of speakup and emacspeak
> wanting to use the same synth (an apollo in my case)? Or is it good to
> use emacs with speakup (so doing away with emacspeak? Or alternatively,
> is there any other editors people might suggest.
> 
> From
> Michael Whapples
> 
> 
> _______________________________________________
> Speakup mailing list
> Speakup@braille.uwo.ca
> http://speech.braille.uwo.ca/mailman/listinfo/speakup

- -- 
The Moon is Waning Gibbous (54% of Full)

         My web site is located at: http://hallenbeck.ftml.net
                We can only see a short distance ahead,
           but we can see plenty there that needs to be done.
                           A.N. Turing, 1950
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Re: editors

[Albert E. Sten-Clanton]

I started with Emacs, but mostly use vi--or, more precisely, vim.  You can screw yourself royally if you forget what mode you're in.  Also, I've found that, unlike with Emacs, I don't hear what I'm backspacing over.  Those are the drawbacks I live with regularly.  As long as I remember what mode I'm in, though, I find it much easier to move around a document in vim than in Emacs, easier to copy and paste blocks of text, and much easier to change the settings that kick in when I start it.  (I still don't know how to set autofill on or the line length to wrap at permanently in Emacs:  it's doubtless somewhere in the manual, but sure not easy to find.) Also, I find the Emacs keystrokes often a nuisance, especially especially because there's only one working alt key, which apparently is a Linux thing.

You may of course know all this and have decided against vim.  I mention these things only in case they may be new food for thought.  I avoided vim until I took a class in which some of its useful features were pointed out to us.  I was grateful.

Al
----- Original Message ----- 
From: "Michael Whapples" <mwhapples@aim.com>
To: <speakup@braille.uwo.ca>
Sent: Thursday, November 01, 2007 7:59 AM
Subject: editors


> Hello,
> I am currently looking for a better editor than my current favourite
> (nano). I have just been doing some bash scripting training, and in that
> they were teaching using vi (the training was for people who may never
> have used unix before), but I have to say I just wasn't getting on with
> vi. How does speakup work with vi best? I found it not very good. People
> were saying to me that nano isn't so powerful (and I know what they are
> getting at), so I am thinking about emacs (or emacspeak). It seems more
> to my liking than vi, but I have a few questions about it. If I were to
> use emacspeak, how is it best to stop conflicts of speakup and emacspeak
> wanting to use the same synth (an apollo in my case)? Or is it good to
> use emacs with speakup (so doing away with emacspeak? Or alternatively,
> is there any other editors people might suggest.
> 
> From
> Michael Whapples
> 
> 
> _______________________________________________
> Speakup mailing list
> Speakup@braille.uwo.ca
> http://speech.braille.uwo.ca/mailman/listinfo/speakup
> 
> 
> -- 
> No virus found in this incoming message.
> Checked by AVG Free Edition. 
> Version: 7.5.503 / Virus Database: 269.15.13/1099 - Release Date: 10/30/2007 10:06 AM
> 
>

Re: editors

[John Heim]

----- Original Message ----- 
From: "Albert E. Sten-Clanton" <albert.e.sten_clanton@verizon.net>
To: "Speakup is a screen review system for Linux." <speakup@braille.uwo.ca>
Sent: Thursday, November 01, 2007 9:41 AM
Subject: Re: editors


>I started with Emacs, but mostly use vi--or, more precisely, vim.  You can 
>screw yourself royally if you forget what mode you're in.  Also, I've found 
>that, unlike with Emacs, I don't hear what I'm backspacing over.  Those are 
>the drawbacks I live with regularly.  As long as I remember what mode I'm 
>in, though, I find it much easier to move around a document in vim than in 
>Emacs, easier to copy and paste blocks of text, and much easier to change 
>the settings that kick in when I start it.  (I still don't know how to set 
>autofill on or the line length to wrap at permanently in Emacs:  it's 
>doubtless somewhere in the manual, but sure not easy to find.) Also, I find 
>the Emacs keystrokes often a nuisance, especially especially because 
>there's only one working alt key, which apparently is a Linux thing.
>

Wow, that's interesting.  Don't take this as a criticism by any means but 
I've  never heard of anyone switching from emacs to vi. Although, I've sort 
of done that myself. I used emacspeak for years. But now that I primarily 
use speakup, I use vi as my editor.  Emacs is hard. I guess so is vi in it's 
own way.

Actually, what I usually do is edit files remotely on a Windows machine. I 
use a tool called sftpdrive. You can map a Windows drive letter to a machine 
that runs ssh and edit files like they were on any other network share. Very 
slick.

One thing bad about linux editorsYou have to learn them. I can switch from 
notepad to TextPad to UltraEdit without having to figure out what keystrokes 
to use with each program. Home puts you at the beginning of the line. 
Shift+cursordown marks the line. Shift+Del cuts the line. Shift+Ins pastes 
it. Control+f,s saves the file.

They all have their own keys for the fancy stuff but you can do the basics 
without learning anything about the editor.

Re: editors

[John Heim]

----- Original Message ----- 
From: "Michael Whapples" <mwhapples@aim.com>
> to my liking than vi, but I have a few questions about it. If I were to
> use emacspeak, how is it best to stop conflicts of speakup and emacspeak

You said the easiest way so that would be stopping speakup before you run 
emacspeak. I think you can just  push the printscreen key and you don't have 
to unload the driver.

I dropped off the emacspeak list a few years ago but I know there were a lot 
of people struggling with getting speakup and emacspeak to work well 
together. I believe what they were trying to do is have speech-dispatcher 
handle both speakup speech and emacspeak speech.  You might have more luck 
with this question on he emacspeak list. You'll have to google for that. I 
don't know where that list is anymore.

Emacspeak is a really excellent editor though. I used it on my laptop for 
years. I didn't know how to compile a kernel or download a kernel or install 
a kernel. I could install from a rpm package though so I started with 
emacspeak.

When I had to do a lot of text editing on my laptop last summer, I switched 
back to emacspeak temporarily. I would unload the driver before staring 
emacspeak. I don't think you have to do that. But emacspeak will do 
everything you want after boot. You can't use emacspeak to get boot messages 
but other than that, you can do anything else there is to do on a computer.

Re: editors

[Albert E. Sten-Clanton]

> One thing bad about linux editorsYou have to learn them. I can switch from 
> notepad to TextPad to UltraEdit without having to figure out what keystrokes 
> to use with each program. Home puts you at the beginning of the line. 
> Shift+cursordown marks the line. Shift+Del cuts the line. Shift+Ins pastes 
> it. Control+f,s saves the file.
> 
> They all have their own keys for the fancy stuff but you can do the basics 
> without learning anything about the editor.
> 

That's a very fair point indeed.  Sometimes, I forget I'm editing with emacs or vim and hit one of those Windows editor keys.  Derrr!

One thing I like a lot about using one of the Linux editors is that I can just type its name and the file to bring up.  It reminds me of the old DOS days, when I did the same with WordPerfect.  If there's a way to do that in Windows, I don't know it.  With it, I have to be careful which directory it's looking in for a file, or which directory became the default if I had the temerity to put something in other than "my documents."

Al

Re: editors

[C.M. Brannon]

"John Heim" <jheim@math.wisc.edu> writes:

> You said the easiest way so that would be stopping speakup before you run 
> emacspeak. I think you can just  push the printscreen key and you don't have 
> to unload the driver.

Yes, this is completely true.  Emacspeak and Speakup play nicely
together.  I run Emacspeak in one virtual terminal, and all the rest
use Speakup.
The nice thing about the print-screen key is that it only disables
Speakup in the current VT.

You wrote another message in this thread which I'll respond to
below...

> One thing bad about linux editorsYou have to learn them. I can switch from 
> notepad to TextPad to UltraEdit without having to figure out what keystrokes 

If you learn them, then you reap the reward of increased
productivity, IMHO.

-- Chris

Re: editors

[W. Nick Dotson]

Actually, Vista has that searching and indexing thing down to something that feels pretty friendly and normal.

Nick

On Thu, 01 Nov 2007 10:50:53 -0500, Albert E. Sten-Clanton wrote:

 > One thing bad about linux editorsYou have to learn them. I can switch from 
 > notepad to TextPad to UltraEdit without having to figure out what keystrokes 
 > to use with each program. Home puts you at the beginning of the line. 
 > Shift+cursordown marks the line. Shift+Del cuts the line. Shift+Ins pastes 
 > it. Control+f,s saves the file.
 > 
 > They all have their own keys for the fancy stuff but you can do the basics 
 > without learning anything about the editor.
 > 

 That's a very fair point indeed.  Sometimes, I forget I'm editing with emacs or vim and hit one of those Windows editor keys.  Derrr!

 One thing I like a lot about using one of the Linux editors is that I can just type its name and the file to bring up.  It reminds me of the old DOS days, when I 
did the same with WordPerfect.  If there's a way to do that in Windows, I don't know it.  With it, I have to be careful which directory it's looking in for a file, or 
which directory became the default if I had the temerity to put something in other than "my documents."

 Al

 _______________________________________________
 Speakup mailing list
 Speakup@braille.uwo.ca
 http://speech.braille.uwo.ca/mailman/listinfo/speakup

Re: editors

[Gaijin]

On Thu, Nov 01, 2007 at 12:59:52PM +0000, Michael Whapples wrote:
> I am currently looking for a better editor than my current favourite
> (nano)

	I use vim, myself.  Mostly for nostalgia's sake.  elvis and vi
are pretty-much  copies of vim.  Haven't tried emacs.  I used to be a
WordStar fanatic and can use jstar, or would if I haden't forgotten most
of the commands.  There's joe and jed, too.  If you have access to
Linux, try the following:

$ apropos editor

...to see what you have installed in the way of editors.  HTH,

        Michael
 

Re: editors

[Michael Whapples]

This thing about windows editors I think is partly why I chose nano as
it was very much along that sort of line and all important key presses
are shown at the bottom of the screen.

Al, you mentioning about starting editors by specifying the file name on
the command line, well you can do that in windows with notepad, go to
run and type in "notepad myfile.txt" and it should load myfile.txt. I
think a number of windows applications support this (possibly the way
that associating the filename works).

Thank you to everyone for the comments, I think I just need to try some.

From
Michael Whapples
On Thu, 2007-11-01 at 10:50 -0500, Albert E. Sten-Clanton wrote:
> > One thing bad about linux editorsYou have to learn them. I can switch from 
> > notepad to TextPad to UltraEdit without having to figure out what keystrokes 
> > to use with each program. Home puts you at the beginning of the line. 
> > Shift+cursordown marks the line. Shift+Del cuts the line. Shift+Ins pastes 
> > it. Control+f,s saves the file.
> > 
> > They all have their own keys for the fancy stuff but you can do the basics 
> > without learning anything about the editor.
> > 
> 
> That's a very fair point indeed.  Sometimes, I forget I'm editing with emacs or vim and hit one of those Windows editor keys.  Derrr!
> 
> One thing I like a lot about using one of the Linux editors is that I can just type its name and the file to bring up.  It reminds me of the old DOS days, when I did the same with WordPerfect.  If there's a way to do that in Windows, I don't know it.  With it, I have to be careful which directory it's looking in for a file, or which directory became the default if I had the temerity to put something in other than "my documents."
> 
> Al
> 
> 
> 

Editors?

[Hart Larry]

Well, Michael-and-All, I exclusively run nano, however, I have a couple of Nano 
inquirees?  First of all, in the search-and-replace, how can I look for or 
delete carriage returns?  I think in wp they are called "hrt"
Also, if I am editing my lynx bookmarks file, I know there are ways to have 
nano come up at the current line instead of beginning of a file?  In the help 
it claims a minus LINE
Thanks in advance
Hart

Re: editors

[Albert E. Sten-Clanton]

> Al, you mentioning about starting editors by specifying the file name on
> the command line, well you can do that in windows with notepad, go to
> run and type in "notepad myfile.txt" and it should load myfile.txt. I
> think a number of windows applications support this (possibly the way
> that associating the filename works).
> 

Thank you for that.  I tried it; it worked.

Al

Re: editors

[Tomas Cerha]

Michael Whapples wrote:
> I am thinking about emacs (or emacspeak). It seems more
> to my liking than vi, but I have a few questions about it. If I were to
> use emacspeak, how is it best to stop conflicts of speakup and emacspeak
> wanting to use the same synth (an apollo in my case)?

There is also the option of using Emacs with speech-el.  Since
speechd-el uses Speech Dispatcher, it coexists with speakup (as well as
Orca) without a problem.  Read more about speechd-el (emacspeak
alternative) at http://www.freebsoft.org/speechd-el.

Best regards, Tomas.

Re: editors

[dan Murphy]

This discussion of different editors is quite interesting.
I tend to move between nano and emacs, which I'm just learning now.  I 
haven't done a lot of cutting and pasting, so I suppose in that sense 
Nano is limited, but it does seem to work nicely with speakup.
On Thu, 1 
Nov 2007, Albert E. Sten-Clanton wrote:

>> One thing bad about linux editorsYou have to learn them. I can switch from
>> notepad to TextPad to UltraEdit without having to figure out what keystrokes
>> to use with each program. Home puts you at the beginning of the line.
>> Shift+cursordown marks the line. Shift+Del cuts the line. Shift+Ins pastes
>> it. Control+f,s saves the file.
>>
>> They all have their own keys for the fancy stuff but you can do the basics
>> without learning anything about the editor.
>>
>
> That's a very fair point indeed.  Sometimes, I forget I'm editing with emacs or vim and hit one of those Windows editor keys.  Derrr!
>
> One thing I like a lot about using one of the Linux editors is that I can just type its name and the file to bring up.  It reminds me of the old DOS days, when I did the same with WordPerfect.  If there's a way to do that in Windows, I don't know it.  With it, I have to be careful which directory it's looking in for a file, or which directory became the default if I had the temerity to put something in other than "my documents."
>
> Al
>
> _______________________________________________
> Speakup mailing list
> Speakup@braille.uwo.ca
> http://speech.braille.uwo.ca/mailman/listinfo/speakup
>

Re: editors

[Tyler Spivey]

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Hash: SHA1

I tried emacspeak, but the constant delay between me pressing a key and
getting a response from the synthesizer quickly turned me away from it.
I was using a dectalk express, but noone else seemed to have that
problem - so I think that it's just normal emacspeak behaviour that
everyone got used to - all of the voice changing commands and silences
added major delay, in my oppinion. Currently I use vim for writing email
since it can wordwrap, otherwise ed and edbrowse for doing mostly
everything else. I think ed is a good editor, if you can handle the
command oriented nature of it.
- - Tyler

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Re: editors

[Lukas Loehrer]

Tyler Spivey writes ("Re: editors"):
> I tried emacspeak, but the constant delay between me pressing a key and
> getting a response from the synthesizer quickly turned me away from it.
> I was using a dectalk express, but noone else seemed to have that
> problem - so I think that it's just normal emacspeak behaviour that
> everyone got used to - all of the voice changing commands and silences

I have only used emacspeak with eflite, espeak and the outloud TTS
servers and it is extremely responsive, that means there is no
noticeable delay between pressing a key and the TTs system speaking
it.

Emacs and Emacspeak are really much more than just an editor. You can
use it to do many different tasks like reading mail, surfing the web
or managing your contacts. Also, it can be extended easily by the user
which makes it very flexible.

Best regards, Lukas

RE: editors

[Georgina Joyce]

Hi

Someone wrote:
> One thing bad about linux editorsYou have to learn them. I can switch from 
> notepad to TextPad to UltraEdit without having to figure out what keystrokes 
> to use with each program. Home puts you at the beginning of the line. 
> Shift+cursordown marks the line. Shift+Del cuts the line. Shift+Ins pastes 
> it. Control+f,s saves the file.
> 
OK, that is one point of view although not really accurate.  Ctrl f usually is the find command.  But Linux editors do offer a wider choice to the user and the learning of a new command set seems like unnecessary work.  But if you care to look there is some consistency. Ctrl a and e for example.  Which step outside the realms of editors.  Not forgetting the power of these editors.  What a wonderful world, we are individuals with individual choices.

Enjoy the learning!

Gena

> They all have their own keys for the fancy stuff but you can do the basics 
> without learning anything about the editor.
> 

That's a very fair point indeed.  Sometimes, I forget I'm editing with emacs or vim and hit one of those Windows editor keys.  Derrr!

One thing I like a lot about using one of the Linux editors is that I can just type its name and the file to bring up.  It reminds me of the old DOS days, when I did the same with WordPerfect.  If there's a way to do that in Windows, I don't know it.  With it, I have to be careful which directory it's looking in for a file, or which directory became the default if I had the temerity to put something in other than "my documents."

Al

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editors

[Jude DaShiell]

The BSD berkeley learn utility in the course on ex teaches that vi is a 
subset of ex.  At the time 1990 when I used that utility everything 
possible with vi could be done with ex but the same couldn't be said for 
the reverse case.  That ex tutorial then proceeded to demonstrate quite a 
lot of commands that work fine in ex but won't work in vi. A cut down 
version of both is ed (a little bit better than edlin) if you remember dos 
but not much.  I had goot luck with ex and emacs and e2.  One note about 
Tiger 10.4 and very probably leopard 10.5 for terminal users, you can run 
ex on the mac in terminal mode.  I did it setting up mysql.

Re: editors

[Steve Holmes]

I find emacs to generally work quite well with Speakup.  Some specific
apps like the calendar are a bit fun to work with speakup.  I so far
have found emacspeak to work better with that.  Anyone use the
calendar with Speakup effectively? If so, any ideas to share?

Thanks.

On Fri, Mar 05, 2004 at 10:21:59PM -0500, Kirk Reiser wrote:
> Speakup works just fine with emacs.  You can use emacspeak if you like
> but I've been using emacs with speakup with no problems since about
> 1999.
> 
>   Kirk
> 
> -- 
> 
> Kirk Reiser				The Computer Braille Facility
> e-mail: kirk@braille.uwo.ca		University of Western Ontario
> phone: (519) 661-3061
> 
> _______________________________________________
> Speakup mailing list
> Speakup@braille.uwo.ca
> http://speech.braille.uwo.ca/mailman/listinfo/speakup
> 
> 

-- 
HolmesGrown Solutions
The best solutions for the best price!
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Re: editors

[Alex Snow]

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Hash: SHA1

the two editors I use most often with speakup are emacs and nano. nano 
is a pico clone but it's opensource, has more features, and the cursor 
tracking works a lot better then pico. I don't use emacs as an editor 
more often I run stuff like tnt under it and it works quite nicely.

Slackware does infact install two emacs binaries one with x and one 
without. it really doesn't matter which one you use but if you didn't 
install the x series (bad idea since some packages are broken without 
it) then you need the emacs with no x support.
On Fri, Mar 05, 2004 at 
09:50:20PM -0500, Kyrath. (AKA Rob) wrote:
> Hi, I'm slowly poking around my system and have been looking at the editors that are currently installed.  
> 1. Is there a particular editor that works very well with speakup?  Or alternatively, editors that don't work well at all?
> 2. Does speakup completely support the use of emacs, or does emacspeak need to be used instead?.
> Also, it appears that there are 2 versions of emacs on my system; emacs with-x, and emacs no-x.  I assume that the x version should be uninstalled and only use the no-x version. Right?
> 3. BTW, are there any word processors for linux that run under console mode?  I know there is open office, but that is for the x-windows system.  Right?
> Thanks for any suggestions
> -- Rob
> _______________________________________________
> Speakup mailing list
> Speakup@braille.uwo.ca
> http://speech.braille.uwo.ca/mailman/listinfo/speakup
> 

- -- 
Always borrow money from a pessimist; he doesn't expect to be paid
back.

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Re: editors

[Kirk Reiser]

Speakup works just fine with emacs.  You can use emacspeak if you like
but I've been using emacs with speakup with no problems since about
1999.

  Kirk

-- 

Kirk Reiser				The Computer Braille Facility
e-mail: kirk@braille.uwo.ca		University of Western Ontario
phone: (519) 661-3061

editors

[Kyrath. (AKA Rob)]

Hi, I'm slowly poking around my system and have been looking at the editors that are currently installed.  
1. Is there a particular editor that works very well with speakup?  Or alternatively, editors that don't work well at all?
2. Does speakup completely support the use of emacs, or does emacspeak need to be used instead?.
Also, it appears that there are 2 versions of emacs on my system; emacs with-x, and emacs no-x.  I assume that the x version should be uninstalled and only use the no-x version. Right?
3. BTW, are there any word processors for linux that run under console mode?  I know there is open office, but that is for the x-windows system.  Right?
Thanks for any suggestions
-- Rob

Re: Editors

[Alex Snow]

[-- Attachment #1: Type: text/plain, Size: 504 bytes --]

Nano is a pretty good editor.  It's a clone of pico with lots of added features.  It also has a version built with cygwin that runs under win32.  You can get it at ftp://ftp.gnu.org/pub/gnu/nano.

  ----- Original Message ----- 
  From: TJ McElroy 
  To: Speakup@braille.uwo.ca 
  Sent: Tuesday, August 19, 2003 8:16 AM
  Subject: Editors



  Hi,

  What is the preferred text
  editor to use with ZipSpeak ?

  Is there a free editor,
  that will run under Win32, and ZipSpeak ?




[-- Attachment #2: Type: text/html, Size: 1636 bytes --]

Editors

[TJ McElroy]

[-- Attachment #1: Type: text/plain, Size: 142 bytes --]


Hi,

What is the preferred text
editor to use with ZipSpeak ?

Is there a free editor,
that will run under Win32, and ZipSpeak ?



[-- Attachment #2: Type: text/html, Size: 565 bytes --]

Re: Editors

[Charles Crawford]

I use Nano which is good.

-- Charlie.

ps:  Ther3e is no real good editor in my view like WordPerfect Editor.

At 08:16 AM 08/19/2003 -0500, you wrote:

>Hi,
>
>What is the preferred text
>editor to use with ZipSpeak ?
>
>Is there a free editor,
>that will run under Win32, and ZipSpeak ?

Re: editors

[Geoff Shang]

Hi Frank:

You shouldn't have to hit keypad-enter if the cursor isn't parked.  It
should track automatically.

Geoff.

Re: editors

[frankiec]

Hi there Saqib.

Speakup does not have automatic reviewing of the screen when cursering
around.  This will be changed in future releases but for now it's easy
enough to use the review functions when in any of those programs that you
mentioned.

Because speakup is kernel code it can't deal with speaking the movment of
the curser quite like tredisional screen readers do.  But speakup is very
usable.  There are a few things that one has to get used to doing.  
infact I would say it's a new form of a three fingered salute.  Thumb on
the down arrow, middle finger on the say line key, and pinky on the numpad
enter.  down enter sayline down enter sayline down enter sayline....

Hope this helps.
Frank

On Wed, 31 May 2000, Saqib Shaikh wrote:

> with matt campbells help i have got speakup up and running! 
> however, now i find that all the screen oriented programs i wish to 
> use are very speech unfriendly. for example, i wished to use an 
> editor, such as vi or emacs and found that when going up and down 
> lines or left and right the text was not spoken. also, i wished to use 
> cfdisk as i found fdisk hard to use, but found cfdisk very unfriendly. 
> then,  i wished to use the pkgtool utility, and again the menus were 
> not read! i think that speakup is a good screen reader; probably the 
> best available, but it is just like th early days of windows access 
> where you can't use any of the programs you wish to use but 
> instead have to find blind friendly alternatives which are unheard of 
> by your sighted friends. am i wrong in my asumptions? so far i 
> have done some user management and played around with files 
> (copying, deleting, etc) but nothing interesting! regards, saqib 
> shaikh
> 
> Looking for cheap music? Try:
> http://service.bfast.com/bfast/click?bfmid=1349732&siteid=29120644&bfpage=m
> 
> Looking for cheap software? Try:
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> 
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> 
> Want to find great bargains on books? Try:
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> 
> Trying to find the ideal gift for a friend? Look at:
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> 
> Fancy getting a custom poster made? Go to:
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> 
> Trying to find that book that has gone out of print? Pay a visit to:
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> 
> Interested in looking at the best books, music and software of the century? Browse to:
> http://service.bfast.com/bfast/click?bfmid=1349732&siteid=29120644&bfpage=mi
> 
> If you want to find books, music, software, magazines and much more for great prices on the internet, then make this your first
>  stop:
> http://service.bfast.com/bfast/click?bfmid=1349732&siteid=29120644&bfpage=h
> 
> Looking for a book? Try:
> http://service.bfast.com/bfast/click?bfmid=1349732&siteid=29120644&bfpage=s
> 
> _______________________________________________
> Speakup mailing list
> Speakup@braille.uwo.ca
> http://speech.braille.uwo.ca/mailman/listinfo/speakup
> 

editors

[Saqib Shaikh]

with matt campbells help i have got speakup up and running! 
however, now i find that all the screen oriented programs i wish to 
use are very speech unfriendly. for example, i wished to use an 
editor, such as vi or emacs and found that when going up and down 
lines or left and right the text was not spoken. also, i wished to use 
cfdisk as i found fdisk hard to use, but found cfdisk very unfriendly. 
then,  i wished to use the pkgtool utility, and again the menus were 
not read! i think that speakup is a good screen reader; probably the 
best available, but it is just like th early days of windows access 
where you can't use any of the programs you wish to use but 
instead have to find blind friendly alternatives which are unheard of 
by your sighted friends. am i wrong in my asumptions? so far i 
have done some user management and played around with files 
(copying, deleting, etc) but nothing interesting! regards, saqib 
shaikh

Looking for cheap music? Try:
http://service.bfast.com/bfast/click?bfmid=1349732&siteid=29120644&bfpage=m

Looking for cheap software? Try:
http://service.bfast.com/bfast/click?bfmid=1349732&siteid=29120644&bfpage=sw

Looking for cheap magazines? Try:
http://service.bfast.com/bfast/click?bfmid=1349732&siteid=29120644&bfpage=ma

Want to find great bargains on books? Try:
http://service.bfast.com/bfast/click?bfmid=1349732&siteid=29120644&bfpage=b

Trying to find the ideal gift for a friend? Look at:
http://service.bfast.com/bfast/click?bfmid=1349732&siteid=29120644&bfpage=g

Fancy getting a custom poster made? Go to:
http://service.bfast.com/bfast/click?bfmid=1349732&siteid=29120644&bfpage=p

Trying to find that book that has gone out of print? Pay a visit to:
http://service.bfast.com/bfast/click?bfmid=1349732&siteid=29120644&bfpage=oop

Interested in looking at the best books, music and software of the century? Browse to:
http://service.bfast.com/bfast/click?bfmid=1349732&siteid=29120644&bfpage=mi

If you want to find books, music, software, magazines and much more for great prices on the internet, then make this your first
 stop:
http://service.bfast.com/bfast/click?bfmid=1349732&siteid=29120644&bfpage=h

Looking for a book? Try:
http://service.bfast.com/bfast/click?bfmid=1349732&siteid=29120644&bfpage=s