Off-topic: Yahoo registration inaccessible to all blind users

Off-topic: Yahoo registration inaccessible to all blind users

[Geoff Shang]

Hi:

This is blatently off-topic.  If you're not interested, hit delete.  I'd
suggest not discussing it on list unless the moderator deems it on-topic,
but that's obviously not for me to say.  If you care at all, please feel
free to spread this around.

It is apparently now impossible for a blind or low vision person to
independantly register with yahoogroups, no matter what browser they are
using.  Yahoogroups has implemented a security feature to stop automated
programs from spuriously registering yahoo accounts.  Unfortunately, it's
 preventing blind people from registering also ... and they know it.

What they've done is to implement a system where a word is printed on the
screen as a graphic.  You have to correctly enter this word into the
sign-up form before you can register.  This is meant to prove that it's a
human doing the registration, but all it does prove is that it's a sighted
person able to read print that's doing the registration.  They have a link
to click if you can't see the word, and this is what that page says:

   What is Word Verification?
   Visually impaired or blind users: We can help you register. So that a
   customer care representative can contact you, please provide your
   phone number in addition to your required email address when you
   contact us by pasting this URL into your browser:
   http://add.yahoo.com/fast/help/us/edit/cgi_access
   By entering the word you see in the box, you help Yahoo! prevent
   automated registrations. Doing this reduces system loads and ensures
   better performance of Yahoo! services.

   If no image appears, please make sure your browser is set to display
   images and try again. If you are not sure what the word is, make your
   best guess. If you guess incorrectly, you will have an opportunity to
   enter a different word on the next screen.

This is pretty damning.  They are conceeding that they know it's
inaccessibal to blind people and expect me as a blind person to hand over
my phone number so that they can walk me through the registration process.
Quite aside from the fact that I do not want to give out my phone number,
I'm highly doubtful that someone's going to spare the international expence
to call me in Australia.  And even if someone from Yahoo Australia calls
me, what if I live somewhere where there is no local yahoo branch?  someone
will still have to call me, and I wonder how bothered they'll be to do
that?

So what to do?  Firstly, give yahoo a hard time about it, both the main
yahoo in the USA and any local affiliates (e.g. yahoo UK, yahoo Japan,
yahoo Australia, etc).  I'd suggest boycotting them altogether, but I
realise that's not always possible.  I'd also urge any group moderators to
stop using any of the features requiring a yahoo ID until this is resolved.
If you're a member of a yahoo group, ask your list moderator not to use any
of these features, as you as a blind person won't be able to access them.

The yahoo signup page also says that the word verification technology was
developed in conjunction with the Captcha project (note the spelling) at
Carnegie Mellon University.  So I think we should give these people a hard
time too.

Geoff.

Re: Off-topic: Yahoo registration inaccessible to all blind users

[David Poehlman]

we've been discussing this elsewhere and with yahoo who are working on
the issue.

----- Original Message -----
From: "Geoff Shang" <gshang@uq.net.au>
To: <blindcast@yahoogroups.com>; <speakup@braille.uwo.ca>;
<acbri-forum@acbradio.org>
Sent: Wednesday, January 23, 2002 6:23 AM
Subject: Off-topic: Yahoo registration inaccessible to all blind users


Hi:

This is blatently off-topic.  If you're not interested, hit delete.  I'd
suggest not discussing it on list unless the moderator deems it
on-topic,
but that's obviously not for me to say.  If you care at all, please feel
free to spread this around.

It is apparently now impossible for a blind or low vision person to
independantly register with yahoogroups, no matter what browser they are
using.  Yahoogroups has implemented a security feature to stop automated
programs from spuriously registering yahoo accounts.  Unfortunately,
it's
 preventing blind people from registering also ... and they know it.

What they've done is to implement a system where a word is printed on
the
screen as a graphic.  You have to correctly enter this word into the
sign-up form before you can register.  This is meant to prove that it's
a
human doing the registration, but all it does prove is that it's a
sighted
person able to read print that's doing the registration.  They have a
link
to click if you can't see the word, and this is what that page says:

   What is Word Verification?
   Visually impaired or blind users: We can help you register. So that a
   customer care representative can contact you, please provide your
   phone number in addition to your required email address when you
   contact us by pasting this URL into your browser:
   http://add.yahoo.com/fast/help/us/edit/cgi_access
   By entering the word you see in the box, you help Yahoo! prevent
   automated registrations. Doing this reduces system loads and ensures
   better performance of Yahoo! services.

   If no image appears, please make sure your browser is set to display
   images and try again. If you are not sure what the word is, make your
   best guess. If you guess incorrectly, you will have an opportunity to
   enter a different word on the next screen.

This is pretty damning.  They are conceeding that they know it's
inaccessibal to blind people and expect me as a blind person to hand
over
my phone number so that they can walk me through the registration
process.
Quite aside from the fact that I do not want to give out my phone
number,
I'm highly doubtful that someone's going to spare the international
expence
to call me in Australia.  And even if someone from Yahoo Australia calls
me, what if I live somewhere where there is no local yahoo branch?
someone
will still have to call me, and I wonder how bothered they'll be to do
that?

So what to do?  Firstly, give yahoo a hard time about it, both the main
yahoo in the USA and any local affiliates (e.g. yahoo UK, yahoo Japan,
yahoo Australia, etc).  I'd suggest boycotting them altogether, but I
realise that's not always possible.  I'd also urge any group moderators
to
stop using any of the features requiring a yahoo ID until this is
resolved.
If you're a member of a yahoo group, ask your list moderator not to use
any
of these features, as you as a blind person won't be able to access
them.

The yahoo signup page also says that the word verification technology
was
developed in conjunction with the Captcha project (note the spelling) at
Carnegie Mellon University.  So I think we should give these people a
hard
time too.

Geoff.



_______________________________________________
Speakup mailing list
Speakup@braille.uwo.ca
http://speech.braille.uwo.ca/mailman/listinfo/speakup

Re: Off-topic: Yahoo registration inaccessible to all blind users

[Victor Tsaran]

Hi,
There is really nothing Yahoo can do for you in this case. Unless you have
some ideas on how the subscription process can be changed, send your
suggestion to them. From the programming point of view, there is nothing
they can do to better the situation. I know it sounds harsh, but there is
not much else to say. No kind of alt tag or picture description can be
employed to make the "word" accessible.
Vic

----- Original Message -----
From: "Geoff Shang" <gshang@uq.net.au>
To: <blindcast@yahoogroups.com>; <speakup@braille.uwo.ca>;
<acbri-forum@acbradio.org>
Sent: Wednesday, January 23, 2002 12:23 PM
Subject: Off-topic: Yahoo registration inaccessible to all blind users


> Hi:
>
> This is blatently off-topic.  If you're not interested, hit delete.  I'd
> suggest not discussing it on list unless the moderator deems it on-topic,
> but that's obviously not for me to say.  If you care at all, please feel
> free to spread this around.
>
> It is apparently now impossible for a blind or low vision person to
> independantly register with yahoogroups, no matter what browser they are
> using.  Yahoogroups has implemented a security feature to stop automated
> programs from spuriously registering yahoo accounts.  Unfortunately, it's
>  preventing blind people from registering also ... and they know it.
>
> What they've done is to implement a system where a word is printed on the
> screen as a graphic.  You have to correctly enter this word into the
> sign-up form before you can register.  This is meant to prove that it's a
> human doing the registration, but all it does prove is that it's a sighted
> person able to read print that's doing the registration.  They have a link
> to click if you can't see the word, and this is what that page says:
>
>    What is Word Verification?
>    Visually impaired or blind users: We can help you register. So that a
>    customer care representative can contact you, please provide your
>    phone number in addition to your required email address when you
>    contact us by pasting this URL into your browser:
>    http://add.yahoo.com/fast/help/us/edit/cgi_access
>    By entering the word you see in the box, you help Yahoo! prevent
>    automated registrations. Doing this reduces system loads and ensures
>    better performance of Yahoo! services.
>
>    If no image appears, please make sure your browser is set to display
>    images and try again. If you are not sure what the word is, make your
>    best guess. If you guess incorrectly, you will have an opportunity to
>    enter a different word on the next screen.
>
> This is pretty damning.  They are conceeding that they know it's
> inaccessibal to blind people and expect me as a blind person to hand over
> my phone number so that they can walk me through the registration process.
> Quite aside from the fact that I do not want to give out my phone number,
> I'm highly doubtful that someone's going to spare the international
expence
> to call me in Australia.  And even if someone from Yahoo Australia calls
> me, what if I live somewhere where there is no local yahoo branch?
someone
> will still have to call me, and I wonder how bothered they'll be to do
> that?
>
> So what to do?  Firstly, give yahoo a hard time about it, both the main
> yahoo in the USA and any local affiliates (e.g. yahoo UK, yahoo Japan,
> yahoo Australia, etc).  I'd suggest boycotting them altogether, but I
> realise that's not always possible.  I'd also urge any group moderators to
> stop using any of the features requiring a yahoo ID until this is
resolved.
> If you're a member of a yahoo group, ask your list moderator not to use
any
> of these features, as you as a blind person won't be able to access them.
>
> The yahoo signup page also says that the word verification technology was
> developed in conjunction with the Captcha project (note the spelling) at
> Carnegie Mellon University.  So I think we should give these people a hard
> time too.
>
> Geoff.
>
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> Speakup mailing list
> Speakup@braille.uwo.ca
> http://speech.braille.uwo.ca/mailman/listinfo/speakup
>
>

Re: Off-topic: Yahoo registration inaccessible to all blind users

[Amanda Lee]

That is rediculous! I've use yahoo a lot over the years I guess it's time
to stop.  Hope they have no contracts with the U.S. Federal Government and
are blatant enough to hold to this stupidity



On Wed, 23 Jan 2002, Victor Tsaran wrote:

> Hi,
> There is really nothing Yahoo can do for you in this case. Unless you have
> some ideas on how the subscription process can be changed, send your
> suggestion to them. From the programming point of view, there is nothing
> they can do to better the situation. I know it sounds harsh, but there is
> not much else to say. No kind of alt tag or picture description can be
> employed to make the "word" accessible.
> Vic
>
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: "Geoff Shang" <gshang@uq.net.au>
> To: <blindcast@yahoogroups.com>; <speakup@braille.uwo.ca>;
> <acbri-forum@acbradio.org>
> Sent: Wednesday, January 23, 2002 12:23 PM
> Subject: Off-topic: Yahoo registration inaccessible to all blind users
>
>
> > Hi:
> >
> > This is blatently off-topic.  If you're not interested, hit delete.  I'd
> > suggest not discussing it on list unless the moderator deems it on-topic,
> > but that's obviously not for me to say.  If you care at all, please feel
> > free to spread this around.
> >
> > It is apparently now impossible for a blind or low vision person to
> > independantly register with yahoogroups, no matter what browser they are
> > using.  Yahoogroups has implemented a security feature to stop automated
> > programs from spuriously registering yahoo accounts.  Unfortunately, it's
> >  preventing blind people from registering also ... and they know it.
> >
> > What they've done is to implement a system where a word is printed on the
> > screen as a graphic.  You have to correctly enter this word into the
> > sign-up form before you can register.  This is meant to prove that it's a
> > human doing the registration, but all it does prove is that it's a sighted
> > person able to read print that's doing the registration.  They have a link
> > to click if you can't see the word, and this is what that page says:
> >
> >    What is Word Verification?
> >    Visually impaired or blind users: We can help you register. So that a
> >    customer care representative can contact you, please provide your
> >    phone number in addition to your required email address when you
> >    contact us by pasting this URL into your browser:
> >    http://add.yahoo.com/fast/help/us/edit/cgi_access
> >    By entering the word you see in the box, you help Yahoo! prevent
> >    automated registrations. Doing this reduces system loads and ensures
> >    better performance of Yahoo! services.
> >
> >    If no image appears, please make sure your browser is set to display
> >    images and try again. If you are not sure what the word is, make your
> >    best guess. If you guess incorrectly, you will have an opportunity to
> >    enter a different word on the next screen.
> >
> > This is pretty damning.  They are conceeding that they know it's
> > inaccessibal to blind people and expect me as a blind person to hand over
> > my phone number so that they can walk me through the registration process.
> > Quite aside from the fact that I do not want to give out my phone number,
> > I'm highly doubtful that someone's going to spare the international
> expence
> > to call me in Australia.  And even if someone from Yahoo Australia calls
> > me, what if I live somewhere where there is no local yahoo branch?
> someone
> > will still have to call me, and I wonder how bothered they'll be to do
> > that?
> >
> > So what to do?  Firstly, give yahoo a hard time about it, both the main
> > yahoo in the USA and any local affiliates (e.g. yahoo UK, yahoo Japan,
> > yahoo Australia, etc).  I'd suggest boycotting them altogether, but I
> > realise that's not always possible.  I'd also urge any group moderators to
> > stop using any of the features requiring a yahoo ID until this is
> resolved.
> > If you're a member of a yahoo group, ask your list moderator not to use
> any
> > of these features, as you as a blind person won't be able to access them.
> >
> > The yahoo signup page also says that the word verification technology was
> > developed in conjunction with the Captcha project (note the spelling) at
> > Carnegie Mellon University.  So I think we should give these people a hard
> > time too.
> >
> > Geoff.
> >
> >
> >
> > _______________________________________________
> > Speakup mailing list
> > Speakup@braille.uwo.ca
> > http://speech.braille.uwo.ca/mailman/listinfo/speakup
> >
> >
>
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> Speakup mailing list
> Speakup@braille.uwo.ca
> http://speech.braille.uwo.ca/mailman/listinfo/speakup
>

Re: Off-topic: Yahoo registration inaccessible to all blind users

[Steve Holmes]

That's our whole point! If this kind of shit is used with Yahoo, what's to
stop other services from using that garbage in the name of tighter
security? It reminds me of some products introduced some years back that
would play some kind of hand-eye cordination game with the user to prove
it is who he says he is to connect to the local dial-up network at work.
thank God, this stuff was never implemented at my work but they did talk
about it briefly til I talked them out of it.

A web site or application should *NEVER* *NEVER* use bit mapped text that
cannot be read by any adaptive screen reader products!  The only good
thing about that crap was those banner ads we could never read. We didn't
see them nor hear them so they didn't bother us and we never clicked
them:).

On Wed, 23 Jan 2002, Victor Tsaran wrote:

> Hi,
> There is really nothing Yahoo can do for you in this case. Unless you have
> some ideas on how the subscription process can be changed, send your
> suggestion to them. From the programming point of view, there is nothing
> they can do to better the situation. I know it sounds harsh, but there is
> not much else to say. No kind of alt tag or picture description can be
> employed to make the "word" accessible.
> Vic
>
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: "Geoff Shang" <gshang@uq.net.au>
> To: <blindcast@yahoogroups.com>; <speakup@braille.uwo.ca>;
> <acbri-forum@acbradio.org>
> Sent: Wednesday, January 23, 2002 12:23 PM
> Subject: Off-topic: Yahoo registration inaccessible to all blind users
>
>
> > Hi:
> >
> > This is blatently off-topic.  If you're not interested, hit delete.  I'd
> > suggest not discussing it on list unless the moderator deems it on-topic,
> > but that's obviously not for me to say.  If you care at all, please feel
> > free to spread this around.
> >
> > It is apparently now impossible for a blind or low vision person to
> > independantly register with yahoogroups, no matter what browser they are
> > using.  Yahoogroups has implemented a security feature to stop automated
> > programs from spuriously registering yahoo accounts.  Unfortunately, it's
> >  preventing blind people from registering also ... and they know it.
> >
> > What they've done is to implement a system where a word is printed on the
> > screen as a graphic.  You have to correctly enter this word into the
> > sign-up form before you can register.  This is meant to prove that it's a
> > human doing the registration, but all it does prove is that it's a sighted
> > person able to read print that's doing the registration.  They have a link
> > to click if you can't see the word, and this is what that page says:
> >
> >    What is Word Verification?
> >    Visually impaired or blind users: We can help you register. So that a
> >    customer care representative can contact you, please provide your
> >    phone number in addition to your required email address when you
> >    contact us by pasting this URL into your browser:
> >    http://add.yahoo.com/fast/help/us/edit/cgi_access
> >    By entering the word you see in the box, you help Yahoo! prevent
> >    automated registrations. Doing this reduces system loads and ensures
> >    better performance of Yahoo! services.
> >
> >    If no image appears, please make sure your browser is set to display
> >    images and try again. If you are not sure what the word is, make your
> >    best guess. If you guess incorrectly, you will have an opportunity to
> >    enter a different word on the next screen.
> >
> > This is pretty damning.  They are conceeding that they know it's
> > inaccessibal to blind people and expect me as a blind person to hand over
> > my phone number so that they can walk me through the registration process.
> > Quite aside from the fact that I do not want to give out my phone number,
> > I'm highly doubtful that someone's going to spare the international
> expence
> > to call me in Australia.  And even if someone from Yahoo Australia calls
> > me, what if I live somewhere where there is no local yahoo branch?
> someone
> > will still have to call me, and I wonder how bothered they'll be to do
> > that?
> >
> > So what to do?  Firstly, give yahoo a hard time about it, both the main
> > yahoo in the USA and any local affiliates (e.g. yahoo UK, yahoo Japan,
> > yahoo Australia, etc).  I'd suggest boycotting them altogether, but I
> > realise that's not always possible.  I'd also urge any group moderators to
> > stop using any of the features requiring a yahoo ID until this is
> resolved.
> > If you're a member of a yahoo group, ask your list moderator not to use
> any
> > of these features, as you as a blind person won't be able to access them.
> >
> > The yahoo signup page also says that the word verification technology was
> > developed in conjunction with the Captcha project (note the spelling) at
> > Carnegie Mellon University.  So I think we should give these people a hard
> > time too.
> >
> > Geoff.
> >
> >
> >
> > _______________________________________________
> > Speakup mailing list
> > Speakup@braille.uwo.ca
> > http://speech.braille.uwo.ca/mailman/listinfo/speakup
> >
> >
>
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> Speakup mailing list
> Speakup@braille.uwo.ca
> http://speech.braille.uwo.ca/mailman/listinfo/speakup
>

Re: Off-topic: Yahoo registration inaccessible to all blind users

[Rich Caloggero]

If they want to be sure that a human is sitting at the console, have the
"word" be spoken as well as appear on the screen as an image. Seems simple
enough.
                    Rich

----- Original Message -----
From: "David Poehlman" <poehlman1@home.com>
To: <speakup@braille.uwo.ca>
Sent: Wednesday, January 23, 2002 7:05 AM
Subject: Re: Off-topic: Yahoo registration inaccessible to all blind users


> we've been discussing this elsewhere and with yahoo who are working on
> the issue.
>
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: "Geoff Shang" <gshang@uq.net.au>
> To: <blindcast@yahoogroups.com>; <speakup@braille.uwo.ca>;
> <acbri-forum@acbradio.org>
> Sent: Wednesday, January 23, 2002 6:23 AM
> Subject: Off-topic: Yahoo registration inaccessible to all blind users
>
>
> Hi:
>
> This is blatently off-topic.  If you're not interested, hit delete.  I'd
> suggest not discussing it on list unless the moderator deems it
> on-topic,
> but that's obviously not for me to say.  If you care at all, please feel
> free to spread this around.
>
> It is apparently now impossible for a blind or low vision person to
> independantly register with yahoogroups, no matter what browser they are
> using.  Yahoogroups has implemented a security feature to stop automated
> programs from spuriously registering yahoo accounts.  Unfortunately,
> it's
>  preventing blind people from registering also ... and they know it.
>
> What they've done is to implement a system where a word is printed on
> the
> screen as a graphic.  You have to correctly enter this word into the
> sign-up form before you can register.  This is meant to prove that it's
> a
> human doing the registration, but all it does prove is that it's a
> sighted
> person able to read print that's doing the registration.  They have a
> link
> to click if you can't see the word, and this is what that page says:
>
>    What is Word Verification?
>    Visually impaired or blind users: We can help you register. So that a
>    customer care representative can contact you, please provide your
>    phone number in addition to your required email address when you
>    contact us by pasting this URL into your browser:
>    http://add.yahoo.com/fast/help/us/edit/cgi_access
>    By entering the word you see in the box, you help Yahoo! prevent
>    automated registrations. Doing this reduces system loads and ensures
>    better performance of Yahoo! services.
>
>    If no image appears, please make sure your browser is set to display
>    images and try again. If you are not sure what the word is, make your
>    best guess. If you guess incorrectly, you will have an opportunity to
>    enter a different word on the next screen.
>
> This is pretty damning.  They are conceeding that they know it's
> inaccessibal to blind people and expect me as a blind person to hand
> over
> my phone number so that they can walk me through the registration
> process.
> Quite aside from the fact that I do not want to give out my phone
> number,
> I'm highly doubtful that someone's going to spare the international
> expence
> to call me in Australia.  And even if someone from Yahoo Australia calls
> me, what if I live somewhere where there is no local yahoo branch?
> someone
> will still have to call me, and I wonder how bothered they'll be to do
> that?
>
> So what to do?  Firstly, give yahoo a hard time about it, both the main
> yahoo in the USA and any local affiliates (e.g. yahoo UK, yahoo Japan,
> yahoo Australia, etc).  I'd suggest boycotting them altogether, but I
> realise that's not always possible.  I'd also urge any group moderators
> to
> stop using any of the features requiring a yahoo ID until this is
> resolved.
> If you're a member of a yahoo group, ask your list moderator not to use
> any
> of these features, as you as a blind person won't be able to access
> them.
>
> The yahoo signup page also says that the word verification technology
> was
> developed in conjunction with the Captcha project (note the spelling) at
> Carnegie Mellon University.  So I think we should give these people a
> hard
> time too.
>
> Geoff.
>
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> Speakup mailing list
> Speakup@braille.uwo.ca
> http://speech.braille.uwo.ca/mailman/listinfo/speakup
>
>
>
>

Re: Off-topic: Yahoo registration inaccessible to all blind users

[Kirk Wood]

On Wed, 23 Jan 2002, Steve Holmes wrote:
> That's our whole point! If this kind of shit is used with Yahoo, what's to
> stop other services from using that garbage in the name of tighter
> security? 

Again, the answer is to provide a better answer. Don't just bitch, but
suggest something better. The intent is admirable. And given the amount of
work they do everyday to prevent spam and other resource waste the least
the blind community can do is provide an answer of how to serve them. Many
take this as an attack on the blind people. It isn't at all. It is a
matter of a small group getting caught in the fallout. They would probably
love to cut the cost of a person verifying that you are really a person
and not an automated script. Phone calls cost a lot of money. To the tune
of over a dollar a minute.

=======
Kirk Wood
Cpt.Kirk@1tree.net

Nowlan's Theory:
        He who hesitates is not only lost, but several miles from
        the next freeway exit.

Re: Off-topic: Yahoo registration inaccessible to all blind users

[Kirk Wood]

On Wed, 23 Jan 2002, Rich Caloggero wrote:
> If they want to be sure that a human is sitting at the console, have the
> "word" be spoken as well as appear on the screen as an image. Seems simple
> enough.

This is an excelent idea. Anyone suggest it to them? Seems there are
engines to produce a wave file for a word that make implimentation doable.

=======
Kirk Wood
Cpt.Kirk@1tree.net

Nowlan's Theory:
        He who hesitates is not only lost, but several miles from
        the next freeway exit.

Re: Off-topic: Yahoo registration inaccessible to all blind users

[Charles Hallenbeck]

There is a lot they can do. For starters, they could print their
magic word on the screen using the same foreground color and
background color. It would be invisible to viewers of the screen
but would be spoken on a voice synthesizer... (I think)

Chuck


On Wed, 23 Jan 2002, Amanda Lee wrote:

> That is ridiculous! I've use yahoo a lot over the years I guess it's time
> to stop.  Hope they have no contracts with the U.S. Federal Government and
> are blatant enough to hold to this stupidity
>
>
>
> On Wed, 23 Jan 2002, Victor Tsaran wrote:
>
> > Hi,
> > There is really nothing Yahoo can do for you in this case. Unless you have
> > some ideas on how the subscription process can be changed, send your
> > suggestion to them. From the programming point of view, there is nothing
> > they can do to better the situation. I know it sounds harsh, but there is
> > not much else to say. No kind of alt tag or picture description can be
> > employed to make the "word" accessible.
> > Vic
> >
> > ----- Original Message -----
> > From: "Geoff Shang" <gshang@uq.net.au>
> > To: <blindcast@yahoogroups.com>; <speakup@braille.uwo.ca>;
> > <acbri-forum@acbradio.org>
> > Sent: Wednesday, January 23, 2002 12:23 PM
> > Subject: Off-topic: Yahoo registration inaccessible to all blind users
> >
> >
> > > Hi:
> > >
> > > This is blatently off-topic.  If you're not interested, hit delete.  I'd
> > > suggest not discussing it on list unless the moderator deems it on-topic,
> > > but that's obviously not for me to say.  If you care at all, please feel
> > > free to spread this around.
> > >
> > > It is apparently now impossible for a blind or low vision person to
> > > independantly register with yahoogroups, no matter what browser they are
> > > using.  Yahoogroups has implemented a security feature to stop automated
> > > programs from spuriously registering yahoo accounts.  Unfortunately, it's
> > >  preventing blind people from registering also ... and they know it.
> > >
> > > What they've done is to implement a system where a word is printed on the
> > > screen as a graphic.  You have to correctly enter this word into the
> > > sign-up form before you can register.  This is meant to prove that it's a
> > > human doing the registration, but all it does prove is that it's a sighted
> > > person able to read print that's doing the registration.  They have a link
> > > to click if you can't see the word, and this is what that page says:
> > >
> > >    What is Word Verification?
> > >    Visually impaired or blind users: We can help you register. So that a
> > >    customer care representative can contact you, please provide your
> > >    phone number in addition to your required email address when you
> > >    contact us by pasting this URL into your browser:
> > >    http://add.yahoo.com/fast/help/us/edit/cgi_access
> > >    By entering the word you see in the box, you help Yahoo! prevent
> > >    automated registrations. Doing this reduces system loads and ensures
> > >    better performance of Yahoo! services.
> > >
> > >    If no image appears, please make sure your browser is set to display
> > >    images and try again. If you are not sure what the word is, make your
> > >    best guess. If you guess incorrectly, you will have an opportunity to
> > >    enter a different word on the next screen.
> > >
> > > This is pretty damning.  They are conceeding that they know it's
> > > inaccessibal to blind people and expect me as a blind person to hand over
> > > my phone number so that they can walk me through the registration process.
> > > Quite aside from the fact that I do not want to give out my phone number,
> > > I'm highly doubtful that someone's going to spare the international
> > expence
> > > to call me in Australia.  And even if someone from Yahoo Australia calls
> > > me, what if I live somewhere where there is no local yahoo branch?
> > someone
> > > will still have to call me, and I wonder how bothered they'll be to do
> > > that?
> > >
> > > So what to do?  Firstly, give yahoo a hard time about it, both the main
> > > yahoo in the USA and any local affiliates (e.g. yahoo UK, yahoo Japan,
> > > yahoo Australia, etc).  I'd suggest boycotting them altogether, but I
> > > realise that's not always possible.  I'd also urge any group moderators to
> > > stop using any of the features requiring a yahoo ID until this is
> > resolved.
> > > If you're a member of a yahoo group, ask your list moderator not to use
> > any
> > > of these features, as you as a blind person won't be able to access them.
> > >
> > > The yahoo signup page also says that the word verification technology was
> > > developed in conjunction with the Captcha project (note the spelling) at
> > > Carnegie Mellon University.  So I think we should give these people a hard
> > > time too.
> > >
> > > Geoff.
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > > _______________________________________________
> > > Speakup mailing list
> > > Speakup@braille.uwo.ca
> > > http://speech.braille.uwo.ca/mailman/listinfo/speakup
> > >
> > >
> >
> >
> >
> > _______________________________________________
> > Speakup mailing list
> > Speakup@braille.uwo.ca
> > http://speech.braille.uwo.ca/mailman/listinfo/speakup
> >
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> Speakup mailing list
> Speakup@braille.uwo.ca
> http://speech.braille.uwo.ca/mailman/listinfo/speakup
>

*<<<=-=>>>*<<<=-=>>>*<<<=-=>>>*<<<=-=>>>*
Visit me at http://www.mhonline.net/~chuckh
The Moon is Waxing Gibbous (70% of Full)

Re: Off-topic: Yahoo registration inaccessible to all blind users

[Victor Tsaran]

What would you suggest instead of just complaining?
Best,
Vic

----- Original Message -----
From: "Steve Holmes" <steve@holmesgrown.com>
To: <speakup@braille.uwo.ca>
Sent: Wednesday, January 23, 2002 7:01 PM
Subject: Re: Off-topic: Yahoo registration inaccessible to all blind users


> That's our whole point! If this kind of shit is used with Yahoo, what's to
> stop other services from using that garbage in the name of tighter
> security? It reminds me of some products introduced some years back that
> would play some kind of hand-eye cordination game with the user to prove
> it is who he says he is to connect to the local dial-up network at work.
> thank God, this stuff was never implemented at my work but they did talk
> about it briefly til I talked them out of it.
>
> A web site or application should *NEVER* *NEVER* use bit mapped text that
> cannot be read by any adaptive screen reader products!  The only good
> thing about that crap was those banner ads we could never read. We didn't
> see them nor hear them so they didn't bother us and we never clicked
> them:).
>
> On Wed, 23 Jan 2002, Victor Tsaran wrote:
>
> > Hi,
> > There is really nothing Yahoo can do for you in this case. Unless you
have
> > some ideas on how the subscription process can be changed, send your
> > suggestion to them. From the programming point of view, there is nothing
> > they can do to better the situation. I know it sounds harsh, but there
is
> > not much else to say. No kind of alt tag or picture description can be
> > employed to make the "word" accessible.
> > Vic
> >
> > ----- Original Message -----
> > From: "Geoff Shang" <gshang@uq.net.au>
> > To: <blindcast@yahoogroups.com>; <speakup@braille.uwo.ca>;
> > <acbri-forum@acbradio.org>
> > Sent: Wednesday, January 23, 2002 12:23 PM
> > Subject: Off-topic: Yahoo registration inaccessible to all blind users
> >
> >
> > > Hi:
> > >
> > > This is blatently off-topic.  If you're not interested, hit delete.
I'd
> > > suggest not discussing it on list unless the moderator deems it
on-topic,
> > > but that's obviously not for me to say.  If you care at all, please
feel
> > > free to spread this around.
> > >
> > > It is apparently now impossible for a blind or low vision person to
> > > independantly register with yahoogroups, no matter what browser they
are
> > > using.  Yahoogroups has implemented a security feature to stop
automated
> > > programs from spuriously registering yahoo accounts.  Unfortunately,
it's
> > >  preventing blind people from registering also ... and they know it.
> > >
> > > What they've done is to implement a system where a word is printed on
the
> > > screen as a graphic.  You have to correctly enter this word into the
> > > sign-up form before you can register.  This is meant to prove that
it's a
> > > human doing the registration, but all it does prove is that it's a
sighted
> > > person able to read print that's doing the registration.  They have a
link
> > > to click if you can't see the word, and this is what that page says:
> > >
> > >    What is Word Verification?
> > >    Visually impaired or blind users: We can help you register. So that
a
> > >    customer care representative can contact you, please provide your
> > >    phone number in addition to your required email address when you
> > >    contact us by pasting this URL into your browser:
> > >    http://add.yahoo.com/fast/help/us/edit/cgi_access
> > >    By entering the word you see in the box, you help Yahoo! prevent
> > >    automated registrations. Doing this reduces system loads and
ensures
> > >    better performance of Yahoo! services.
> > >
> > >    If no image appears, please make sure your browser is set to
display
> > >    images and try again. If you are not sure what the word is, make
your
> > >    best guess. If you guess incorrectly, you will have an opportunity
to
> > >    enter a different word on the next screen.
> > >
> > > This is pretty damning.  They are conceeding that they know it's
> > > inaccessibal to blind people and expect me as a blind person to hand
over
> > > my phone number so that they can walk me through the registration
process.
> > > Quite aside from the fact that I do not want to give out my phone
number,
> > > I'm highly doubtful that someone's going to spare the international
> > expence
> > > to call me in Australia.  And even if someone from Yahoo Australia
calls
> > > me, what if I live somewhere where there is no local yahoo branch?
> > someone
> > > will still have to call me, and I wonder how bothered they'll be to do
> > > that?
> > >
> > > So what to do?  Firstly, give yahoo a hard time about it, both the
main
> > > yahoo in the USA and any local affiliates (e.g. yahoo UK, yahoo Japan,
> > > yahoo Australia, etc).  I'd suggest boycotting them altogether, but I
> > > realise that's not always possible.  I'd also urge any group
moderators to
> > > stop using any of the features requiring a yahoo ID until this is
> > resolved.
> > > If you're a member of a yahoo group, ask your list moderator not to
use
> > any
> > > of these features, as you as a blind person won't be able to access
them.
> > >
> > > The yahoo signup page also says that the word verification technology
was
> > > developed in conjunction with the Captcha project (note the spelling)
at
> > > Carnegie Mellon University.  So I think we should give these people a
hard
> > > time too.
> > >
> > > Geoff.
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > > _______________________________________________
> > > Speakup mailing list
> > > Speakup@braille.uwo.ca
> > > http://speech.braille.uwo.ca/mailman/listinfo/speakup
> > >
> > >
> >
> >
> >
> > _______________________________________________
> > Speakup mailing list
> > Speakup@braille.uwo.ca
> > http://speech.braille.uwo.ca/mailman/listinfo/speakup
> >
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> Speakup mailing list
> Speakup@braille.uwo.ca
> http://speech.braille.uwo.ca/mailman/listinfo/speakup
>
>

Re: Off-topic: Yahoo registration inaccessible to all blind users

[Victor Tsaran]

What if you use Lynx or don't have a sound card in your computer? But it's
already some suggestion, not just an empty complaint. thanks a lot!
Vic

----- Original Message -----
From: "Rich Caloggero" <rjc@MIT.EDU>
To: <speakup@braille.uwo.ca>
Sent: Wednesday, January 23, 2002 7:38 PM
Subject: Re: Off-topic: Yahoo registration inaccessible to all blind users


> If they want to be sure that a human is sitting at the console, have the
> "word" be spoken as well as appear on the screen as an image. Seems simple
> enough.
>                     Rich
>
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: "David Poehlman" <poehlman1@home.com>
> To: <speakup@braille.uwo.ca>
> Sent: Wednesday, January 23, 2002 7:05 AM
> Subject: Re: Off-topic: Yahoo registration inaccessible to all blind users
>
>
> > we've been discussing this elsewhere and with yahoo who are working on
> > the issue.
> >
> > ----- Original Message -----
> > From: "Geoff Shang" <gshang@uq.net.au>
> > To: <blindcast@yahoogroups.com>; <speakup@braille.uwo.ca>;
> > <acbri-forum@acbradio.org>
> > Sent: Wednesday, January 23, 2002 6:23 AM
> > Subject: Off-topic: Yahoo registration inaccessible to all blind users
> >
> >
> > Hi:
> >
> > This is blatently off-topic.  If you're not interested, hit delete.  I'd
> > suggest not discussing it on list unless the moderator deems it
> > on-topic,
> > but that's obviously not for me to say.  If you care at all, please feel
> > free to spread this around.
> >
> > It is apparently now impossible for a blind or low vision person to
> > independantly register with yahoogroups, no matter what browser they are
> > using.  Yahoogroups has implemented a security feature to stop automated
> > programs from spuriously registering yahoo accounts.  Unfortunately,
> > it's
> >  preventing blind people from registering also ... and they know it.
> >
> > What they've done is to implement a system where a word is printed on
> > the
> > screen as a graphic.  You have to correctly enter this word into the
> > sign-up form before you can register.  This is meant to prove that it's
> > a
> > human doing the registration, but all it does prove is that it's a
> > sighted
> > person able to read print that's doing the registration.  They have a
> > link
> > to click if you can't see the word, and this is what that page says:
> >
> >    What is Word Verification?
> >    Visually impaired or blind users: We can help you register. So that a
> >    customer care representative can contact you, please provide your
> >    phone number in addition to your required email address when you
> >    contact us by pasting this URL into your browser:
> >    http://add.yahoo.com/fast/help/us/edit/cgi_access
> >    By entering the word you see in the box, you help Yahoo! prevent
> >    automated registrations. Doing this reduces system loads and ensures
> >    better performance of Yahoo! services.
> >
> >    If no image appears, please make sure your browser is set to display
> >    images and try again. If you are not sure what the word is, make your
> >    best guess. If you guess incorrectly, you will have an opportunity to
> >    enter a different word on the next screen.
> >
> > This is pretty damning.  They are conceeding that they know it's
> > inaccessibal to blind people and expect me as a blind person to hand
> > over
> > my phone number so that they can walk me through the registration
> > process.
> > Quite aside from the fact that I do not want to give out my phone
> > number,
> > I'm highly doubtful that someone's going to spare the international
> > expence
> > to call me in Australia.  And even if someone from Yahoo Australia calls
> > me, what if I live somewhere where there is no local yahoo branch?
> > someone
> > will still have to call me, and I wonder how bothered they'll be to do
> > that?
> >
> > So what to do?  Firstly, give yahoo a hard time about it, both the main
> > yahoo in the USA and any local affiliates (e.g. yahoo UK, yahoo Japan,
> > yahoo Australia, etc).  I'd suggest boycotting them altogether, but I
> > realise that's not always possible.  I'd also urge any group moderators
> > to
> > stop using any of the features requiring a yahoo ID until this is
> > resolved.
> > If you're a member of a yahoo group, ask your list moderator not to use
> > any
> > of these features, as you as a blind person won't be able to access
> > them.
> >
> > The yahoo signup page also says that the word verification technology
> > was
> > developed in conjunction with the Captcha project (note the spelling) at
> > Carnegie Mellon University.  So I think we should give these people a
> > hard
> > time too.
> >
> > Geoff.
> >
> >
> >
> > _______________________________________________
> > Speakup mailing list
> > Speakup@braille.uwo.ca
> > http://speech.braille.uwo.ca/mailman/listinfo/speakup
> >
> >
> >
> >
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> Speakup mailing list
> Speakup@braille.uwo.ca
> http://speech.braille.uwo.ca/mailman/listinfo/speakup
>
>

Re: Off-topic: Yahoo registration inaccessible to all blind users

[Buddy Brannan]

On Wed, Jan 23, 2002 at 01:38:35PM -0500, Rich Caloggero wrote:
> If they want to be sure that a human is sitting at the console, have the
> "word" be spoken as well as appear on the screen as an image. Seems simple
> enough.

Yeah, that's what Paypal did, and you can even sign up with lynx! But
you do have to edit the javascript out of the URL to get to the sound
fine. Definitely an improvement over not being able to use it.

Re: Off-topic: Yahoo registration inaccessible to all blind users

[Thomas Stivers]

But that would defeat the purpose because it would be equally visible to
those automatic registration systems they are to screen readers. The sound
file idea sounds pretty good.

Thomas Stivers
stivers_t@mail.utexas.edu
----- Original Message -----
From: "Charles Hallenbeck" <chuckh@mhonline.net>
To: <speakup@braille.uwo.ca>
Sent: Wednesday, January 23, 2002 1:44 PM
Subject: Re: Off-topic: Yahoo registration inaccessible to all blind users


> There is a lot they can do. For starters, they could print their
> magic word on the screen using the same foreground color and
> background color. It would be invisible to viewers of the screen
> but would be spoken on a voice synthesizer... (I think)
>
> Chuck
>
>
> On Wed, 23 Jan 2002, Amanda Lee wrote:
>
> > That is ridiculous! I've use yahoo a lot over the years I guess it's
time
> > to stop.  Hope they have no contracts with the U.S. Federal Government
and
> > are blatant enough to hold to this stupidity
> >
> >
> >
> > On Wed, 23 Jan 2002, Victor Tsaran wrote:
> >
> > > Hi,
> > > There is really nothing Yahoo can do for you in this case. Unless you
have
> > > some ideas on how the subscription process can be changed, send your
> > > suggestion to them. From the programming point of view, there is
nothing
> > > they can do to better the situation. I know it sounds harsh, but there
is
> > > not much else to say. No kind of alt tag or picture description can be
> > > employed to make the "word" accessible.
> > > Vic
> > >
> > > ----- Original Message -----
> > > From: "Geoff Shang" <gshang@uq.net.au>
> > > To: <blindcast@yahoogroups.com>; <speakup@braille.uwo.ca>;
> > > <acbri-forum@acbradio.org>
> > > Sent: Wednesday, January 23, 2002 12:23 PM
> > > Subject: Off-topic: Yahoo registration inaccessible to all blind users
> > >
> > >
> > > > Hi:
> > > >
> > > > This is blatently off-topic.  If you're not interested, hit delete.
I'd
> > > > suggest not discussing it on list unless the moderator deems it
on-topic,
> > > > but that's obviously not for me to say.  If you care at all, please
feel
> > > > free to spread this around.
> > > >
> > > > It is apparently now impossible for a blind or low vision person to
> > > > independantly register with yahoogroups, no matter what browser they
are
> > > > using.  Yahoogroups has implemented a security feature to stop
automated
> > > > programs from spuriously registering yahoo accounts.  Unfortunately,
it's
> > > >  preventing blind people from registering also ... and they know it.
> > > >
> > > > What they've done is to implement a system where a word is printed
on the
> > > > screen as a graphic.  You have to correctly enter this word into the
> > > > sign-up form before you can register.  This is meant to prove that
it's a
> > > > human doing the registration, but all it does prove is that it's a
sighted
> > > > person able to read print that's doing the registration.  They have
a link
> > > > to click if you can't see the word, and this is what that page says:
> > > >
> > > >    What is Word Verification?
> > > >    Visually impaired or blind users: We can help you register. So
that a
> > > >    customer care representative can contact you, please provide your
> > > >    phone number in addition to your required email address when you
> > > >    contact us by pasting this URL into your browser:
> > > >    http://add.yahoo.com/fast/help/us/edit/cgi_access
> > > >    By entering the word you see in the box, you help Yahoo! prevent
> > > >    automated registrations. Doing this reduces system loads and
ensures
> > > >    better performance of Yahoo! services.
> > > >
> > > >    If no image appears, please make sure your browser is set to
display
> > > >    images and try again. If you are not sure what the word is, make
your
> > > >    best guess. If you guess incorrectly, you will have an
opportunity to
> > > >    enter a different word on the next screen.
> > > >
> > > > This is pretty damning.  They are conceeding that they know it's
> > > > inaccessibal to blind people and expect me as a blind person to hand
over
> > > > my phone number so that they can walk me through the registration
process.
> > > > Quite aside from the fact that I do not want to give out my phone
number,
> > > > I'm highly doubtful that someone's going to spare the international
> > > expence
> > > > to call me in Australia.  And even if someone from Yahoo Australia
calls
> > > > me, what if I live somewhere where there is no local yahoo branch?
> > > someone
> > > > will still have to call me, and I wonder how bothered they'll be to
do
> > > > that?
> > > >
> > > > So what to do?  Firstly, give yahoo a hard time about it, both the
main
> > > > yahoo in the USA and any local affiliates (e.g. yahoo UK, yahoo
Japan,
> > > > yahoo Australia, etc).  I'd suggest boycotting them altogether, but
I
> > > > realise that's not always possible.  I'd also urge any group
moderators to
> > > > stop using any of the features requiring a yahoo ID until this is
> > > resolved.
> > > > If you're a member of a yahoo group, ask your list moderator not to
use
> > > any
> > > > of these features, as you as a blind person won't be able to access
them.
> > > >
> > > > The yahoo signup page also says that the word verification
technology was
> > > > developed in conjunction with the Captcha project (note the
spelling) at
> > > > Carnegie Mellon University.  So I think we should give these people
a hard
> > > > time too.
> > > >
> > > > Geoff.
> > > >
> > > >
> > > >
> > > > _______________________________________________
> > > > Speakup mailing list
> > > > Speakup@braille.uwo.ca
> > > > http://speech.braille.uwo.ca/mailman/listinfo/speakup
> > > >
> > > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > > _______________________________________________
> > > Speakup mailing list
> > > Speakup@braille.uwo.ca
> > > http://speech.braille.uwo.ca/mailman/listinfo/speakup
> > >
> >
> >
> > _______________________________________________
> > Speakup mailing list
> > Speakup@braille.uwo.ca
> > http://speech.braille.uwo.ca/mailman/listinfo/speakup
> >
>
> *<<<=-=>>>*<<<=-=>>>*<<<=-=>>>*<<<=-=>>>*
> Visit me at http://www.mhonline.net/~chuckh
> The Moon is Waxing Gibbous (70% of Full)
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> Speakup mailing list
> Speakup@braille.uwo.ca
> http://speech.braille.uwo.ca/mailman/listinfo/speakup

Re: Off-topic: Yahoo registration inaccessible to all blind users

[Victor Tsaran]

Chuck, you are wrong. We are talking about automatized subscriptions which
are the scripts that read the content of HTML and interact with the
registration process behind the screen, so to speak...
Vic

----- Original Message -----
From: "Charles Hallenbeck" <chuckh@mhonline.net>
To: <speakup@braille.uwo.ca>
Sent: Wednesday, January 23, 2002 8:44 PM
Subject: Re: Off-topic: Yahoo registration inaccessible to all blind users


> There is a lot they can do. For starters, they could print their
> magic word on the screen using the same foreground color and
> background color. It would be invisible to viewers of the screen
> but would be spoken on a voice synthesizer... (I think)
>
> Chuck
>
>
> On Wed, 23 Jan 2002, Amanda Lee wrote:
>
> > That is ridiculous! I've use yahoo a lot over the years I guess it's
time
> > to stop.  Hope they have no contracts with the U.S. Federal Government
and
> > are blatant enough to hold to this stupidity
> >
> >
> >
> > On Wed, 23 Jan 2002, Victor Tsaran wrote:
> >
> > > Hi,
> > > There is really nothing Yahoo can do for you in this case. Unless you
have
> > > some ideas on how the subscription process can be changed, send your
> > > suggestion to them. From the programming point of view, there is
nothing
> > > they can do to better the situation. I know it sounds harsh, but there
is
> > > not much else to say. No kind of alt tag or picture description can be
> > > employed to make the "word" accessible.
> > > Vic
> > >
> > > ----- Original Message -----
> > > From: "Geoff Shang" <gshang@uq.net.au>
> > > To: <blindcast@yahoogroups.com>; <speakup@braille.uwo.ca>;
> > > <acbri-forum@acbradio.org>
> > > Sent: Wednesday, January 23, 2002 12:23 PM
> > > Subject: Off-topic: Yahoo registration inaccessible to all blind users
> > >
> > >
> > > > Hi:
> > > >
> > > > This is blatently off-topic.  If you're not interested, hit delete.
I'd
> > > > suggest not discussing it on list unless the moderator deems it
on-topic,
> > > > but that's obviously not for me to say.  If you care at all, please
feel
> > > > free to spread this around.
> > > >
> > > > It is apparently now impossible for a blind or low vision person to
> > > > independantly register with yahoogroups, no matter what browser they
are
> > > > using.  Yahoogroups has implemented a security feature to stop
automated
> > > > programs from spuriously registering yahoo accounts.  Unfortunately,
it's
> > > >  preventing blind people from registering also ... and they know it.
> > > >
> > > > What they've done is to implement a system where a word is printed
on the
> > > > screen as a graphic.  You have to correctly enter this word into the
> > > > sign-up form before you can register.  This is meant to prove that
it's a
> > > > human doing the registration, but all it does prove is that it's a
sighted
> > > > person able to read print that's doing the registration.  They have
a link
> > > > to click if you can't see the word, and this is what that page says:
> > > >
> > > >    What is Word Verification?
> > > >    Visually impaired or blind users: We can help you register. So
that a
> > > >    customer care representative can contact you, please provide your
> > > >    phone number in addition to your required email address when you
> > > >    contact us by pasting this URL into your browser:
> > > >    http://add.yahoo.com/fast/help/us/edit/cgi_access
> > > >    By entering the word you see in the box, you help Yahoo! prevent
> > > >    automated registrations. Doing this reduces system loads and
ensures
> > > >    better performance of Yahoo! services.
> > > >
> > > >    If no image appears, please make sure your browser is set to
display
> > > >    images and try again. If you are not sure what the word is, make
your
> > > >    best guess. If you guess incorrectly, you will have an
opportunity to
> > > >    enter a different word on the next screen.
> > > >
> > > > This is pretty damning.  They are conceeding that they know it's
> > > > inaccessibal to blind people and expect me as a blind person to hand
over
> > > > my phone number so that they can walk me through the registration
process.
> > > > Quite aside from the fact that I do not want to give out my phone
number,
> > > > I'm highly doubtful that someone's going to spare the international
> > > expence
> > > > to call me in Australia.  And even if someone from Yahoo Australia
calls
> > > > me, what if I live somewhere where there is no local yahoo branch?
> > > someone
> > > > will still have to call me, and I wonder how bothered they'll be to
do
> > > > that?
> > > >
> > > > So what to do?  Firstly, give yahoo a hard time about it, both the
main
> > > > yahoo in the USA and any local affiliates (e.g. yahoo UK, yahoo
Japan,
> > > > yahoo Australia, etc).  I'd suggest boycotting them altogether, but
I
> > > > realise that's not always possible.  I'd also urge any group
moderators to
> > > > stop using any of the features requiring a yahoo ID until this is
> > > resolved.
> > > > If you're a member of a yahoo group, ask your list moderator not to
use
> > > any
> > > > of these features, as you as a blind person won't be able to access
them.
> > > >
> > > > The yahoo signup page also says that the word verification
technology was
> > > > developed in conjunction with the Captcha project (note the
spelling) at
> > > > Carnegie Mellon University.  So I think we should give these people
a hard
> > > > time too.
> > > >
> > > > Geoff.
> > > >
> > > >
> > > >
> > > > _______________________________________________
> > > > Speakup mailing list
> > > > Speakup@braille.uwo.ca
> > > > http://speech.braille.uwo.ca/mailman/listinfo/speakup
> > > >
> > > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > > _______________________________________________
> > > Speakup mailing list
> > > Speakup@braille.uwo.ca
> > > http://speech.braille.uwo.ca/mailman/listinfo/speakup
> > >
> >
> >
> > _______________________________________________
> > Speakup mailing list
> > Speakup@braille.uwo.ca
> > http://speech.braille.uwo.ca/mailman/listinfo/speakup
> >
>
> *<<<=-=>>>*<<<=-=>>>*<<<=-=>>>*<<<=-=>>>*
> Visit me at http://www.mhonline.net/~chuckh
> The Moon is Waxing Gibbous (70% of Full)
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> Speakup mailing list
> Speakup@braille.uwo.ca
> http://speech.braille.uwo.ca/mailman/listinfo/speakup
>
>

Re: Off-topic: Yahoo registration inaccessible to all blind users

[Amanda Lee]

A text only interface of course!  Wonder how they are serving Wireless
Phone and PDA users?  These devices typically can't handle a lot of high
resolution graphics and junk!  Bessides, what the hell! is so damn! secure
about a stupid email list?  If the FBI wants an Email list I daresay
they're not going to go to Yahoo dot bomb to get one.  This is just a
stupid excuse for not wanting to think in any different direction than
stupidity.  Many sites have secure and not secured options for doing
anything from ordering merchandise to signing up for newsletters.

Amanda Lee



On Wed, 23 Jan 2002, Victor Tsaran wrote:

> What would you suggest instead of just complaining?
> Best,
> Vic
>
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: "Steve Holmes" <steve@holmesgrown.com>
> To: <speakup@braille.uwo.ca>
> Sent: Wednesday, January 23, 2002 7:01 PM
> Subject: Re: Off-topic: Yahoo registration inaccessible to all blind users
>
>
> > That's our whole point! If this kind of shit is used with Yahoo, what's to
> > stop other services from using that garbage in the name of tighter
> > security? It reminds me of some products introduced some years back that
> > would play some kind of hand-eye cordination game with the user to prove
> > it is who he says he is to connect to the local dial-up network at work.
> > thank God, this stuff was never implemented at my work but they did talk
> > about it briefly til I talked them out of it.
> >
> > A web site or application should *NEVER* *NEVER* use bit mapped text that
> > cannot be read by any adaptive screen reader products!  The only good
> > thing about that crap was those banner ads we could never read. We didn't
> > see them nor hear them so they didn't bother us and we never clicked
> > them:).
> >
> > On Wed, 23 Jan 2002, Victor Tsaran wrote:
> >
> > > Hi,
> > > There is really nothing Yahoo can do for you in this case. Unless you
> have
> > > some ideas on how the subscription process can be changed, send your
> > > suggestion to them. From the programming point of view, there is nothing
> > > they can do to better the situation. I know it sounds harsh, but there
> is
> > > not much else to say. No kind of alt tag or picture description can be
> > > employed to make the "word" accessible.
> > > Vic
> > >
> > > ----- Original Message -----
> > > From: "Geoff Shang" <gshang@uq.net.au>
> > > To: <blindcast@yahoogroups.com>; <speakup@braille.uwo.ca>;
> > > <acbri-forum@acbradio.org>
> > > Sent: Wednesday, January 23, 2002 12:23 PM
> > > Subject: Off-topic: Yahoo registration inaccessible to all blind users
> > >
> > >
> > > > Hi:
> > > >
> > > > This is blatently off-topic.  If you're not interested, hit delete.
> I'd
> > > > suggest not discussing it on list unless the moderator deems it
> on-topic,
> > > > but that's obviously not for me to say.  If you care at all, please
> feel
> > > > free to spread this around.
> > > >
> > > > It is apparently now impossible for a blind or low vision person to
> > > > independantly register with yahoogroups, no matter what browser they
> are
> > > > using.  Yahoogroups has implemented a security feature to stop
> automated
> > > > programs from spuriously registering yahoo accounts.  Unfortunately,
> it's
> > > >  preventing blind people from registering also ... and they know it.
> > > >
> > > > What they've done is to implement a system where a word is printed on
> the
> > > > screen as a graphic.  You have to correctly enter this word into the
> > > > sign-up form before you can register.  This is meant to prove that
> it's a
> > > > human doing the registration, but all it does prove is that it's a
> sighted
> > > > person able to read print that's doing the registration.  They have a
> link
> > > > to click if you can't see the word, and this is what that page says:
> > > >
> > > >    What is Word Verification?
> > > >    Visually impaired or blind users: We can help you register. So that
> a
> > > >    customer care representative can contact you, please provide your
> > > >    phone number in addition to your required email address when you
> > > >    contact us by pasting this URL into your browser:
> > > >    http://add.yahoo.com/fast/help/us/edit/cgi_access
> > > >    By entering the word you see in the box, you help Yahoo! prevent
> > > >    automated registrations. Doing this reduces system loads and
> ensures
> > > >    better performance of Yahoo! services.
> > > >
> > > >    If no image appears, please make sure your browser is set to
> display
> > > >    images and try again. If you are not sure what the word is, make
> your
> > > >    best guess. If you guess incorrectly, you will have an opportunity
> to
> > > >    enter a different word on the next screen.
> > > >
> > > > This is pretty damning.  They are conceeding that they know it's
> > > > inaccessibal to blind people and expect me as a blind person to hand
> over
> > > > my phone number so that they can walk me through the registration
> process.
> > > > Quite aside from the fact that I do not want to give out my phone
> number,
> > > > I'm highly doubtful that someone's going to spare the international
> > > expence
> > > > to call me in Australia.  And even if someone from Yahoo Australia
> calls
> > > > me, what if I live somewhere where there is no local yahoo branch?
> > > someone
> > > > will still have to call me, and I wonder how bothered they'll be to do
> > > > that?
> > > >
> > > > So what to do?  Firstly, give yahoo a hard time about it, both the
> main
> > > > yahoo in the USA and any local affiliates (e.g. yahoo UK, yahoo Japan,
> > > > yahoo Australia, etc).  I'd suggest boycotting them altogether, but I
> > > > realise that's not always possible.  I'd also urge any group
> moderators to
> > > > stop using any of the features requiring a yahoo ID until this is
> > > resolved.
> > > > If you're a member of a yahoo group, ask your list moderator not to
> use
> > > any
> > > > of these features, as you as a blind person won't be able to access
> them.
> > > >
> > > > The yahoo signup page also says that the word verification technology
> was
> > > > developed in conjunction with the Captcha project (note the spelling)
> at
> > > > Carnegie Mellon University.  So I think we should give these people a
> hard
> > > > time too.
> > > >
> > > > Geoff.
> > > >
> > > >
> > > >
> > > > _______________________________________________
> > > > Speakup mailing list
> > > > Speakup@braille.uwo.ca
> > > > http://speech.braille.uwo.ca/mailman/listinfo/speakup
> > > >
> > > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > > _______________________________________________
> > > Speakup mailing list
> > > Speakup@braille.uwo.ca
> > > http://speech.braille.uwo.ca/mailman/listinfo/speakup
> > >
> >
> >
> > _______________________________________________
> > Speakup mailing list
> > Speakup@braille.uwo.ca
> > http://speech.braille.uwo.ca/mailman/listinfo/speakup
> >
> >
>
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> Speakup mailing list
> Speakup@braille.uwo.ca
> http://speech.braille.uwo.ca/mailman/listinfo/speakup
>

Re: Off-topic: Yahoo registration inaccessible to all blind users

[BTBG]

They could do what mailing lists do. Have you input ann email address and
send you a text password to use.  But I tend to like the thing with the wave
file myself.

from
Keith H.

God chooses what we go through; we choose how we go through it.

--- You Wrote: ---

What if you use Lynx or don't have a sound card in your computer? But it's
already some suggestion, not just an empty complaint. thanks a lot!
<snip>

Re: Off-topic: Yahoo registration inaccessible to all blind users

[David Poehlman]

but the bots they are trying to avoid would still pick it up.  this was
already taken into account.

----- Original Message -----
From: "Charles Hallenbeck" <chuckh@mhonline.net>
To: <speakup@braille.uwo.ca>
Sent: Wednesday, January 23, 2002 2:44 PM
Subject: Re: Off-topic: Yahoo registration inaccessible to all blind
users


There is a lot they can do. For starters, they could print their
magic word on the screen using the same foreground color and
background color. It would be invisible to viewers of the screen
but would be spoken on a voice synthesizer... (I think)

Chuck


On Wed, 23 Jan 2002, Amanda Lee wrote:

> That is ridiculous! I've use yahoo a lot over the years I guess it's
time
> to stop.  Hope they have no contracts with the U.S. Federal Government
and
> are blatant enough to hold to this stupidity
>
>
>
> On Wed, 23 Jan 2002, Victor Tsaran wrote:
>
> > Hi,
> > There is really nothing Yahoo can do for you in this case. Unless
you have
> > some ideas on how the subscription process can be changed, send your
> > suggestion to them. From the programming point of view, there is
nothing
> > they can do to better the situation. I know it sounds harsh, but
there is
> > not much else to say. No kind of alt tag or picture description can
be
> > employed to make the "word" accessible.
> > Vic
> >
> > ----- Original Message -----
> > From: "Geoff Shang" <gshang@uq.net.au>
> > To: <blindcast@yahoogroups.com>; <speakup@braille.uwo.ca>;
> > <acbri-forum@acbradio.org>
> > Sent: Wednesday, January 23, 2002 12:23 PM
> > Subject: Off-topic: Yahoo registration inaccessible to all blind
users
> >
> >
> > > Hi:
> > >
> > > This is blatently off-topic.  If you're not interested, hit
delete.  I'd
> > > suggest not discussing it on list unless the moderator deems it
on-topic,
> > > but that's obviously not for me to say.  If you care at all,
please feel
> > > free to spread this around.
> > >
> > > It is apparently now impossible for a blind or low vision person
to
> > > independantly register with yahoogroups, no matter what browser
they are
> > > using.  Yahoogroups has implemented a security feature to stop
automated
> > > programs from spuriously registering yahoo accounts.
Unfortunately, it's
> > >  preventing blind people from registering also ... and they know
it.
> > >
> > > What they've done is to implement a system where a word is printed
on the
> > > screen as a graphic.  You have to correctly enter this word into
the
> > > sign-up form before you can register.  This is meant to prove that
it's a
> > > human doing the registration, but all it does prove is that it's a
sighted
> > > person able to read print that's doing the registration.  They
have a link
> > > to click if you can't see the word, and this is what that page
says:
> > >
> > >    What is Word Verification?
> > >    Visually impaired or blind users: We can help you register. So
that a
> > >    customer care representative can contact you, please provide
your
> > >    phone number in addition to your required email address when
you
> > >    contact us by pasting this URL into your browser:
> > >    http://add.yahoo.com/fast/help/us/edit/cgi_access
> > >    By entering the word you see in the box, you help Yahoo!
prevent
> > >    automated registrations. Doing this reduces system loads and
ensures
> > >    better performance of Yahoo! services.
> > >
> > >    If no image appears, please make sure your browser is set to
display
> > >    images and try again. If you are not sure what the word is,
make your
> > >    best guess. If you guess incorrectly, you will have an
opportunity to
> > >    enter a different word on the next screen.
> > >
> > > This is pretty damning.  They are conceeding that they know it's
> > > inaccessibal to blind people and expect me as a blind person to
hand over
> > > my phone number so that they can walk me through the registration
process.
> > > Quite aside from the fact that I do not want to give out my phone
number,
> > > I'm highly doubtful that someone's going to spare the
international
> > expence
> > > to call me in Australia.  And even if someone from Yahoo Australia
calls
> > > me, what if I live somewhere where there is no local yahoo branch?
> > someone
> > > will still have to call me, and I wonder how bothered they'll be
to do
> > > that?
> > >
> > > So what to do?  Firstly, give yahoo a hard time about it, both the
main
> > > yahoo in the USA and any local affiliates (e.g. yahoo UK, yahoo
Japan,
> > > yahoo Australia, etc).  I'd suggest boycotting them altogether,
but I
> > > realise that's not always possible.  I'd also urge any group
moderators to
> > > stop using any of the features requiring a yahoo ID until this is
> > resolved.
> > > If you're a member of a yahoo group, ask your list moderator not
to use
> > any
> > > of these features, as you as a blind person won't be able to
access them.
> > >
> > > The yahoo signup page also says that the word verification
technology was
> > > developed in conjunction with the Captcha project (note the
spelling) at
> > > Carnegie Mellon University.  So I think we should give these
people a hard
> > > time too.
> > >
> > > Geoff.
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > > _______________________________________________
> > > Speakup mailing list
> > > Speakup@braille.uwo.ca
> > > http://speech.braille.uwo.ca/mailman/listinfo/speakup
> > >
> > >
> >
> >
> >
> > _______________________________________________
> > Speakup mailing list
> > Speakup@braille.uwo.ca
> > http://speech.braille.uwo.ca/mailman/listinfo/speakup
> >
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> Speakup mailing list
> Speakup@braille.uwo.ca
> http://speech.braille.uwo.ca/mailman/listinfo/speakup
>

*<<<=-=>>>*<<<=-=>>>*<<<=-=>>>*<<<=-=>>>*
Visit me at http://www.mhonline.net/~chuckh
The Moon is Waxing Gibbous (70% of Full)


_______________________________________________
Speakup mailing list
Speakup@braille.uwo.ca
http://speech.braille.uwo.ca/mailman/listinfo/speakup

Re: Off-topic: Yahoo registration inaccessible to all blind users

[David Poehlman]

and If I don't have a sound card or don't talk?

----- Original Message -----
From: "Kirk Wood" <cpt.kirk@1tree.net>
To: <speakup@braille.uwo.ca>
Sent: Wednesday, January 23, 2002 2:32 PM
Subject: Re: Off-topic: Yahoo registration inaccessible to all blind
users


On Wed, 23 Jan 2002, Rich Caloggero wrote:
> If they want to be sure that a human is sitting at the console, have
the
> "word" be spoken as well as appear on the screen as an image. Seems
simple
> enough.

This is an excelent idea. Anyone suggest it to them? Seems there are
engines to produce a wave file for a word that make implimentation
doable.

=======
Kirk Wood
Cpt.Kirk@1tree.net

Nowlan's Theory:
        He who hesitates is not only lost, but several miles from
        the next freeway exit.



_______________________________________________
Speakup mailing list
Speakup@braille.uwo.ca
http://speech.braille.uwo.ca/mailman/listinfo/speakup

Re: Off-topic: Yahoo registration inaccessible to all blind users

[Kirk Wood]

On Wed, 23 Jan 2002, Charles Hallenbeck wrote:
> There is a lot they can do. For starters, they could print their
> magic word on the screen using the same foreground color and
> background color. It would be invisible to viewers of the screen
> but would be spoken on a voice synthesizer... (I think)

And scripts would read it as well. Yea, that would be pointless.

=======
Kirk Wood
Cpt.Kirk@1tree.net

Nowlan's Theory:
        He who hesitates is not only lost, but several miles from
        the next freeway exit.

Re: Off-topic: Yahoo registration inaccessible to all blind users

[Kirk Wood]

On Wed, 23 Jan 2002, Victor Tsaran wrote:
> What if you use Lynx or don't have a sound card in your computer? But it's
> already some suggestion, not just an empty complaint. thanks a lot!

At some point or other you will be shit out of luck. Thems is the breaks.

=======
Kirk Wood
Cpt.Kirk@1tree.net

Nowlan's Theory:
        He who hesitates is not only lost, but several miles from
        the next freeway exit.

Re: Off-topic: Yahoo registration inaccessible to all blind users

[David Poehlman]

but it does not have to be.  they are working on a solution to this that
works for all.

----- Original Message -----
From: "Kirk Wood" <cpt.kirk@1tree.net>
To: <speakup@braille.uwo.ca>
Sent: Wednesday, January 23, 2002 5:12 PM
Subject: Re: Off-topic: Yahoo registration inaccessible to all blind
users


On Wed, 23 Jan 2002, Victor Tsaran wrote:
> What if you use Lynx or don't have a sound card in your computer? But
it's
> already some suggestion, not just an empty complaint. thanks a lot!

At some point or other you will be shit out of luck. Thems is the
breaks.

=======
Kirk Wood
Cpt.Kirk@1tree.net

Nowlan's Theory:
        He who hesitates is not only lost, but several miles from
        the next freeway exit.



_______________________________________________
Speakup mailing list
Speakup@braille.uwo.ca
http://speech.braille.uwo.ca/mailman/listinfo/speakup

Re: Off-topic: Yahoo registration inaccessible to all blind users

[Janina Sajka]

Yahoo's offer to complete registrations by phone very probably falls 
within allowable practice under the ADA. It may well be considered a 
"reasonable accomodation." The factors that would contribute to a 
determination of whether, or not, this accomodation is reasonable, would 
certainly include whether or not they call people back, wherever they 
reside, and whether or not they call in a timely manner. My own judgement 
on this would be that they should call within an hour or so. Much longer 
than that would not be reasonable, in my view. Certainly days would be 
very unreasonable.

I base my view on the fact that a user completing the online form has 
immediate access to mail. The ADA requires that reasonable accomodations 
provide approximately the same level of service.

So, has anyone called Yahoo to register?
 -- 
	
				Janina Sajka, Director
				Technology Research and Development
				Governmental Relations Group
				American Foundation for the Blind (AFB)

Email: janina@afb.net		Phone: (202) 408-8175

Chair, Accessibility SIG
Open Electronic Book Forum (OEBF)
http://www.openebook.org

Re: Off-topic: Yahoo registration inaccessible to all blind users

[Victor Tsaran]

Amanda, it is not only about mailing lists. It also has to do with the fact
that several "bad people" decided to perform, say, 1000 automatic
registrations at a time. They would like to register 1000 Email accounts on
Yahoo. Do you see any implications?
Victor

----- Original Message -----
From: "Amanda Lee" <amanda@shellworld.net>
To: <speakup@braille.uwo.ca>
Sent: Wednesday, January 23, 2002 9:25 PM
Subject: Re: Off-topic: Yahoo registration inaccessible to all blind users


> A text only interface of course!  Wonder how they are serving Wireless
> Phone and PDA users?  These devices typically can't handle a lot of high
> resolution graphics and junk!  Bessides, what the hell! is so damn! secure
> about a stupid email list?  If the FBI wants an Email list I daresay
> they're not going to go to Yahoo dot bomb to get one.  This is just a
> stupid excuse for not wanting to think in any different direction than
> stupidity.  Many sites have secure and not secured options for doing
> anything from ordering merchandise to signing up for newsletters.
>
> Amanda Lee
>
>
>
> On Wed, 23 Jan 2002, Victor Tsaran wrote:
>
> > What would you suggest instead of just complaining?
> > Best,
> > Vic
> >
> > ----- Original Message -----
> > From: "Steve Holmes" <steve@holmesgrown.com>
> > To: <speakup@braille.uwo.ca>
> > Sent: Wednesday, January 23, 2002 7:01 PM
> > Subject: Re: Off-topic: Yahoo registration inaccessible to all blind
users
> >
> >
> > > That's our whole point! If this kind of shit is used with Yahoo,
what's to
> > > stop other services from using that garbage in the name of tighter
> > > security? It reminds me of some products introduced some years back
that
> > > would play some kind of hand-eye cordination game with the user to
prove
> > > it is who he says he is to connect to the local dial-up network at
work.
> > > thank God, this stuff was never implemented at my work but they did
talk
> > > about it briefly til I talked them out of it.
> > >
> > > A web site or application should *NEVER* *NEVER* use bit mapped text
that
> > > cannot be read by any adaptive screen reader products!  The only good
> > > thing about that crap was those banner ads we could never read. We
didn't
> > > see them nor hear them so they didn't bother us and we never clicked
> > > them:).
> > >
> > > On Wed, 23 Jan 2002, Victor Tsaran wrote:
> > >
> > > > Hi,
> > > > There is really nothing Yahoo can do for you in this case. Unless
you
> > have
> > > > some ideas on how the subscription process can be changed, send your
> > > > suggestion to them. From the programming point of view, there is
nothing
> > > > they can do to better the situation. I know it sounds harsh, but
there
> > is
> > > > not much else to say. No kind of alt tag or picture description can
be
> > > > employed to make the "word" accessible.
> > > > Vic
> > > >
> > > > ----- Original Message -----
> > > > From: "Geoff Shang" <gshang@uq.net.au>
> > > > To: <blindcast@yahoogroups.com>; <speakup@braille.uwo.ca>;
> > > > <acbri-forum@acbradio.org>
> > > > Sent: Wednesday, January 23, 2002 12:23 PM
> > > > Subject: Off-topic: Yahoo registration inaccessible to all blind
users
> > > >
> > > >
> > > > > Hi:
> > > > >
> > > > > This is blatently off-topic.  If you're not interested, hit
delete.
> > I'd
> > > > > suggest not discussing it on list unless the moderator deems it
> > on-topic,
> > > > > but that's obviously not for me to say.  If you care at all,
please
> > feel
> > > > > free to spread this around.
> > > > >
> > > > > It is apparently now impossible for a blind or low vision person
to
> > > > > independantly register with yahoogroups, no matter what browser
they
> > are
> > > > > using.  Yahoogroups has implemented a security feature to stop
> > automated
> > > > > programs from spuriously registering yahoo accounts.
Unfortunately,
> > it's
> > > > >  preventing blind people from registering also ... and they know
it.
> > > > >
> > > > > What they've done is to implement a system where a word is printed
on
> > the
> > > > > screen as a graphic.  You have to correctly enter this word into
the
> > > > > sign-up form before you can register.  This is meant to prove that
> > it's a
> > > > > human doing the registration, but all it does prove is that it's a
> > sighted
> > > > > person able to read print that's doing the registration.  They
have a
> > link
> > > > > to click if you can't see the word, and this is what that page
says:
> > > > >
> > > > >    What is Word Verification?
> > > > >    Visually impaired or blind users: We can help you register. So
that
> > a
> > > > >    customer care representative can contact you, please provide
your
> > > > >    phone number in addition to your required email address when
you
> > > > >    contact us by pasting this URL into your browser:
> > > > >    http://add.yahoo.com/fast/help/us/edit/cgi_access
> > > > >    By entering the word you see in the box, you help Yahoo!
prevent
> > > > >    automated registrations. Doing this reduces system loads and
> > ensures
> > > > >    better performance of Yahoo! services.
> > > > >
> > > > >    If no image appears, please make sure your browser is set to
> > display
> > > > >    images and try again. If you are not sure what the word is,
make
> > your
> > > > >    best guess. If you guess incorrectly, you will have an
opportunity
> > to
> > > > >    enter a different word on the next screen.
> > > > >
> > > > > This is pretty damning.  They are conceeding that they know it's
> > > > > inaccessibal to blind people and expect me as a blind person to
hand
> > over
> > > > > my phone number so that they can walk me through the registration
> > process.
> > > > > Quite aside from the fact that I do not want to give out my phone
> > number,
> > > > > I'm highly doubtful that someone's going to spare the
international
> > > > expence
> > > > > to call me in Australia.  And even if someone from Yahoo Australia
> > calls
> > > > > me, what if I live somewhere where there is no local yahoo branch?
> > > > someone
> > > > > will still have to call me, and I wonder how bothered they'll be
to do
> > > > > that?
> > > > >
> > > > > So what to do?  Firstly, give yahoo a hard time about it, both the
> > main
> > > > > yahoo in the USA and any local affiliates (e.g. yahoo UK, yahoo
Japan,
> > > > > yahoo Australia, etc).  I'd suggest boycotting them altogether,
but I
> > > > > realise that's not always possible.  I'd also urge any group
> > moderators to
> > > > > stop using any of the features requiring a yahoo ID until this is
> > > > resolved.
> > > > > If you're a member of a yahoo group, ask your list moderator not
to
> > use
> > > > any
> > > > > of these features, as you as a blind person won't be able to
access
> > them.
> > > > >
> > > > > The yahoo signup page also says that the word verification
technology
> > was
> > > > > developed in conjunction with the Captcha project (note the
spelling)
> > at
> > > > > Carnegie Mellon University.  So I think we should give these
people a
> > hard
> > > > > time too.
> > > > >
> > > > > Geoff.
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > > _______________________________________________
> > > > > Speakup mailing list
> > > > > Speakup@braille.uwo.ca
> > > > > http://speech.braille.uwo.ca/mailman/listinfo/speakup
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > >
> > > >
> > > >
> > > > _______________________________________________
> > > > Speakup mailing list
> > > > Speakup@braille.uwo.ca
> > > > http://speech.braille.uwo.ca/mailman/listinfo/speakup
> > > >
> > >
> > >
> > > _______________________________________________
> > > Speakup mailing list
> > > Speakup@braille.uwo.ca
> > > http://speech.braille.uwo.ca/mailman/listinfo/speakup
> > >
> > >
> >
> >
> >
> > _______________________________________________
> > Speakup mailing list
> > Speakup@braille.uwo.ca
> > http://speech.braille.uwo.ca/mailman/listinfo/speakup
> >
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> Speakup mailing list
> Speakup@braille.uwo.ca
> http://speech.braille.uwo.ca/mailman/listinfo/speakup
>
>

Re: Off-topic: Yahoo registration inaccessible to all blind users

[Amanda Lee]

Yes I do however, I still can think of other methods for avoiding this
sort of thing and to deny persons who are print disabled access is still
absolute stupidity and I won't back down on this.  Have these idiots ever
heard of setting up limits?  Have they heard of limiting the number of
access, number of registrations, I probably could type in pages here.
They are really being very short-sighted as to dealing with the real
problem and so their solution is to barr everyone when I'd say that only a
few created this situation in the first place.

I feel their pain but I bet you this won't stop abuse.

Amanda Lee



On Thu, 24 Jan 2002, Victor Tsaran wrote:

> Amanda, it is not only about mailing lists. It also has to do with the fact
> that several "bad people" decided to perform, say, 1000 automatic
> registrations at a time. They would like to register 1000 Email accounts on
> Yahoo. Do you see any implications?
> Victor
>
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: "Amanda Lee" <amanda@shellworld.net>
> To: <speakup@braille.uwo.ca>
> Sent: Wednesday, January 23, 2002 9:25 PM
> Subject: Re: Off-topic: Yahoo registration inaccessible to all blind users
>
>
> > A text only interface of course!  Wonder how they are serving Wireless
> > Phone and PDA users?  These devices typically can't handle a lot of high
> > resolution graphics and junk!  Bessides, what the hell! is so damn! secure
> > about a stupid email list?  If the FBI wants an Email list I daresay
> > they're not going to go to Yahoo dot bomb to get one.  This is just a
> > stupid excuse for not wanting to think in any different direction than
> > stupidity.  Many sites have secure and not secured options for doing
> > anything from ordering merchandise to signing up for newsletters.
> >
> > Amanda Lee
> >
> >
> >
> > On Wed, 23 Jan 2002, Victor Tsaran wrote:
> >
> > > What would you suggest instead of just complaining?
> > > Best,
> > > Vic
> > >
> > > ----- Original Message -----
> > > From: "Steve Holmes" <steve@holmesgrown.com>
> > > To: <speakup@braille.uwo.ca>
> > > Sent: Wednesday, January 23, 2002 7:01 PM
> > > Subject: Re: Off-topic: Yahoo registration inaccessible to all blind
> users
> > >
> > >
> > > > That's our whole point! If this kind of shit is used with Yahoo,
> what's to
> > > > stop other services from using that garbage in the name of tighter
> > > > security? It reminds me of some products introduced some years back
> that
> > > > would play some kind of hand-eye cordination game with the user to
> prove
> > > > it is who he says he is to connect to the local dial-up network at
> work.
> > > > thank God, this stuff was never implemented at my work but they did
> talk
> > > > about it briefly til I talked them out of it.
> > > >
> > > > A web site or application should *NEVER* *NEVER* use bit mapped text
> that
> > > > cannot be read by any adaptive screen reader products!  The only good
> > > > thing about that crap was those banner ads we could never read. We
> didn't
> > > > see them nor hear them so they didn't bother us and we never clicked
> > > > them:).
> > > >
> > > > On Wed, 23 Jan 2002, Victor Tsaran wrote:
> > > >
> > > > > Hi,
> > > > > There is really nothing Yahoo can do for you in this case. Unless
> you
> > > have
> > > > > some ideas on how the subscription process can be changed, send your
> > > > > suggestion to them. From the programming point of view, there is
> nothing
> > > > > they can do to better the situation. I know it sounds harsh, but
> there
> > > is
> > > > > not much else to say. No kind of alt tag or picture description can
> be
> > > > > employed to make the "word" accessible.
> > > > > Vic
> > > > >
> > > > > ----- Original Message -----
> > > > > From: "Geoff Shang" <gshang@uq.net.au>
> > > > > To: <blindcast@yahoogroups.com>; <speakup@braille.uwo.ca>;
> > > > > <acbri-forum@acbradio.org>
> > > > > Sent: Wednesday, January 23, 2002 12:23 PM
> > > > > Subject: Off-topic: Yahoo registration inaccessible to all blind
> users
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > > > Hi:
> > > > > >
> > > > > > This is blatently off-topic.  If you're not interested, hit
> delete.
> > > I'd
> > > > > > suggest not discussing it on list unless the moderator deems it
> > > on-topic,
> > > > > > but that's obviously not for me to say.  If you care at all,
> please
> > > feel
> > > > > > free to spread this around.
> > > > > >
> > > > > > It is apparently now impossible for a blind or low vision person
> to
> > > > > > independantly register with yahoogroups, no matter what browser
> they
> > > are
> > > > > > using.  Yahoogroups has implemented a security feature to stop
> > > automated
> > > > > > programs from spuriously registering yahoo accounts.
> Unfortunately,
> > > it's
> > > > > >  preventing blind people from registering also ... and they know
> it.
> > > > > >
> > > > > > What they've done is to implement a system where a word is printed
> on
> > > the
> > > > > > screen as a graphic.  You have to correctly enter this word into
> the
> > > > > > sign-up form before you can register.  This is meant to prove that
> > > it's a
> > > > > > human doing the registration, but all it does prove is that it's a
> > > sighted
> > > > > > person able to read print that's doing the registration.  They
> have a
> > > link
> > > > > > to click if you can't see the word, and this is what that page
> says:
> > > > > >
> > > > > >    What is Word Verification?
> > > > > >    Visually impaired or blind users: We can help you register. So
> that
> > > a
> > > > > >    customer care representative can contact you, please provide
> your
> > > > > >    phone number in addition to your required email address when
> you
> > > > > >    contact us by pasting this URL into your browser:
> > > > > >    http://add.yahoo.com/fast/help/us/edit/cgi_access
> > > > > >    By entering the word you see in the box, you help Yahoo!
> prevent
> > > > > >    automated registrations. Doing this reduces system loads and
> > > ensures
> > > > > >    better performance of Yahoo! services.
> > > > > >
> > > > > >    If no image appears, please make sure your browser is set to
> > > display
> > > > > >    images and try again. If you are not sure what the word is,
> make
> > > your
> > > > > >    best guess. If you guess incorrectly, you will have an
> opportunity
> > > to
> > > > > >    enter a different word on the next screen.
> > > > > >
> > > > > > This is pretty damning.  They are conceeding that they know it's
> > > > > > inaccessibal to blind people and expect me as a blind person to
> hand
> > > over
> > > > > > my phone number so that they can walk me through the registration
> > > process.
> > > > > > Quite aside from the fact that I do not want to give out my phone
> > > number,
> > > > > > I'm highly doubtful that someone's going to spare the
> international
> > > > > expence
> > > > > > to call me in Australia.  And even if someone from Yahoo Australia
> > > calls
> > > > > > me, what if I live somewhere where there is no local yahoo branch?
> > > > > someone
> > > > > > will still have to call me, and I wonder how bothered they'll be
> to do
> > > > > > that?
> > > > > >
> > > > > > So what to do?  Firstly, give yahoo a hard time about it, both the
> > > main
> > > > > > yahoo in the USA and any local affiliates (e.g. yahoo UK, yahoo
> Japan,
> > > > > > yahoo Australia, etc).  I'd suggest boycotting them altogether,
> but I
> > > > > > realise that's not always possible.  I'd also urge any group
> > > moderators to
> > > > > > stop using any of the features requiring a yahoo ID until this is
> > > > > resolved.
> > > > > > If you're a member of a yahoo group, ask your list moderator not
> to
> > > use
> > > > > any
> > > > > > of these features, as you as a blind person won't be able to
> access
> > > them.
> > > > > >
> > > > > > The yahoo signup page also says that the word verification
> technology
> > > was
> > > > > > developed in conjunction with the Captcha project (note the
> spelling)
> > > at
> > > > > > Carnegie Mellon University.  So I think we should give these
> people a
> > > hard
> > > > > > time too.
> > > > > >
> > > > > > Geoff.
> > > > > >
> > > > > >
> > > > > >
> > > > > > _______________________________________________
> > > > > > Speakup mailing list
> > > > > > Speakup@braille.uwo.ca
> > > > > > http://speech.braille.uwo.ca/mailman/listinfo/speakup
> > > > > >
> > > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > > _______________________________________________
> > > > > Speakup mailing list
> > > > > Speakup@braille.uwo.ca
> > > > > http://speech.braille.uwo.ca/mailman/listinfo/speakup
> > > > >
> > > >
> > > >
> > > > _______________________________________________
> > > > Speakup mailing list
> > > > Speakup@braille.uwo.ca
> > > > http://speech.braille.uwo.ca/mailman/listinfo/speakup
> > > >
> > > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > > _______________________________________________
> > > Speakup mailing list
> > > Speakup@braille.uwo.ca
> > > http://speech.braille.uwo.ca/mailman/listinfo/speakup
> > >
> >
> >
> > _______________________________________________
> > Speakup mailing list
> > Speakup@braille.uwo.ca
> > http://speech.braille.uwo.ca/mailman/listinfo/speakup
> >
> >
>
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> Speakup mailing list
> Speakup@braille.uwo.ca
> http://speech.braille.uwo.ca/mailman/listinfo/speakup
>

Re: Off-topic: Yahoo registration inaccessible to all blind users

[David Poehlman]

how much has it actually cut down on spam?  the bots could still collect
the addresses and some humans can still crank out sign ups quickly so
the spam truck keeps delivering.

----- Original Message -----
From: "Amanda Lee" <amanda@shellworld.net>
To: <speakup@braille.uwo.ca>
Sent: Thursday, January 24, 2002 1:12 PM
Subject: Re: Off-topic: Yahoo registration inaccessible to all blind
users


Yes I do however, I still can think of other methods for avoiding this
sort of thing and to deny persons who are print disabled access is still
absolute stupidity and I won't back down on this.  Have these idiots
ever
heard of setting up limits?  Have they heard of limiting the number of
access, number of registrations, I probably could type in pages here.
They are really being very short-sighted as to dealing with the real
problem and so their solution is to barr everyone when I'd say that only
a
few created this situation in the first place.

I feel their pain but I bet you this won't stop abuse.

Amanda Lee



On Thu, 24 Jan 2002, Victor Tsaran wrote:

> Amanda, it is not only about mailing lists. It also has to do with the
fact
> that several "bad people" decided to perform, say, 1000 automatic
> registrations at a time. They would like to register 1000 Email
accounts on
> Yahoo. Do you see any implications?
> Victor
>
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: "Amanda Lee" <amanda@shellworld.net>
> To: <speakup@braille.uwo.ca>
> Sent: Wednesday, January 23, 2002 9:25 PM
> Subject: Re: Off-topic: Yahoo registration inaccessible to all blind
users
>
>
> > A text only interface of course!  Wonder how they are serving
Wireless
> > Phone and PDA users?  These devices typically can't handle a lot of
high
> > resolution graphics and junk!  Bessides, what the hell! is so damn!
secure
> > about a stupid email list?  If the FBI wants an Email list I daresay
> > they're not going to go to Yahoo dot bomb to get one.  This is just
a
> > stupid excuse for not wanting to think in any different direction
than
> > stupidity.  Many sites have secure and not secured options for doing
> > anything from ordering merchandise to signing up for newsletters.
> >
> > Amanda Lee
> >
> >
> >
> > On Wed, 23 Jan 2002, Victor Tsaran wrote:
> >
> > > What would you suggest instead of just complaining?
> > > Best,
> > > Vic
> > >
> > > ----- Original Message -----
> > > From: "Steve Holmes" <steve@holmesgrown.com>
> > > To: <speakup@braille.uwo.ca>
> > > Sent: Wednesday, January 23, 2002 7:01 PM
> > > Subject: Re: Off-topic: Yahoo registration inaccessible to all
blind
> users
> > >
> > >
> > > > That's our whole point! If this kind of shit is used with Yahoo,
> what's to
> > > > stop other services from using that garbage in the name of
tighter
> > > > security? It reminds me of some products introduced some years
back
> that
> > > > would play some kind of hand-eye cordination game with the user
to
> prove
> > > > it is who he says he is to connect to the local dial-up network
at
> work.
> > > > thank God, this stuff was never implemented at my work but they
did
> talk
> > > > about it briefly til I talked them out of it.
> > > >
> > > > A web site or application should *NEVER* *NEVER* use bit mapped
text
> that
> > > > cannot be read by any adaptive screen reader products!  The only
good
> > > > thing about that crap was those banner ads we could never read.
We
> didn't
> > > > see them nor hear them so they didn't bother us and we never
clicked
> > > > them:).
> > > >
> > > > On Wed, 23 Jan 2002, Victor Tsaran wrote:
> > > >
> > > > > Hi,
> > > > > There is really nothing Yahoo can do for you in this case.
Unless
> you
> > > have
> > > > > some ideas on how the subscription process can be changed,
send your
> > > > > suggestion to them. From the programming point of view, there
is
> nothing
> > > > > they can do to better the situation. I know it sounds harsh,
but
> there
> > > is
> > > > > not much else to say. No kind of alt tag or picture
description can
> be
> > > > > employed to make the "word" accessible.
> > > > > Vic
> > > > >
> > > > > ----- Original Message -----
> > > > > From: "Geoff Shang" <gshang@uq.net.au>
> > > > > To: <blindcast@yahoogroups.com>; <speakup@braille.uwo.ca>;
> > > > > <acbri-forum@acbradio.org>
> > > > > Sent: Wednesday, January 23, 2002 12:23 PM
> > > > > Subject: Off-topic: Yahoo registration inaccessible to all
blind
> users
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > > > Hi:
> > > > > >
> > > > > > This is blatently off-topic.  If you're not interested, hit
> delete.
> > > I'd
> > > > > > suggest not discussing it on list unless the moderator deems
it
> > > on-topic,
> > > > > > but that's obviously not for me to say.  If you care at all,
> please
> > > feel
> > > > > > free to spread this around.
> > > > > >
> > > > > > It is apparently now impossible for a blind or low vision
person
> to
> > > > > > independantly register with yahoogroups, no matter what
browser
> they
> > > are
> > > > > > using.  Yahoogroups has implemented a security feature to
stop
> > > automated
> > > > > > programs from spuriously registering yahoo accounts.
> Unfortunately,
> > > it's
> > > > > >  preventing blind people from registering also ... and they
know
> it.
> > > > > >
> > > > > > What they've done is to implement a system where a word is
printed
> on
> > > the
> > > > > > screen as a graphic.  You have to correctly enter this word
into
> the
> > > > > > sign-up form before you can register.  This is meant to
prove that
> > > it's a
> > > > > > human doing the registration, but all it does prove is that
it's a
> > > sighted
> > > > > > person able to read print that's doing the registration.
They
> have a
> > > link
> > > > > > to click if you can't see the word, and this is what that
page
> says:
> > > > > >
> > > > > >    What is Word Verification?
> > > > > >    Visually impaired or blind users: We can help you
register. So
> that
> > > a
> > > > > >    customer care representative can contact you, please
provide
> your
> > > > > >    phone number in addition to your required email address
when
> you
> > > > > >    contact us by pasting this URL into your browser:
> > > > > >    http://add.yahoo.com/fast/help/us/edit/cgi_access
> > > > > >    By entering the word you see in the box, you help Yahoo!
> prevent
> > > > > >    automated registrations. Doing this reduces system loads
and
> > > ensures
> > > > > >    better performance of Yahoo! services.
> > > > > >
> > > > > >    If no image appears, please make sure your browser is set
to
> > > display
> > > > > >    images and try again. If you are not sure what the word
is,
> make
> > > your
> > > > > >    best guess. If you guess incorrectly, you will have an
> opportunity
> > > to
> > > > > >    enter a different word on the next screen.
> > > > > >
> > > > > > This is pretty damning.  They are conceeding that they know
it's
> > > > > > inaccessibal to blind people and expect me as a blind person
to
> hand
> > > over
> > > > > > my phone number so that they can walk me through the
registration
> > > process.
> > > > > > Quite aside from the fact that I do not want to give out my
phone
> > > number,
> > > > > > I'm highly doubtful that someone's going to spare the
> international
> > > > > expence
> > > > > > to call me in Australia.  And even if someone from Yahoo
Australia
> > > calls
> > > > > > me, what if I live somewhere where there is no local yahoo
branch?
> > > > > someone
> > > > > > will still have to call me, and I wonder how bothered
they'll be
> to do
> > > > > > that?
> > > > > >
> > > > > > So what to do?  Firstly, give yahoo a hard time about it,
both the
> > > main
> > > > > > yahoo in the USA and any local affiliates (e.g. yahoo UK,
yahoo
> Japan,
> > > > > > yahoo Australia, etc).  I'd suggest boycotting them
altogether,
> but I
> > > > > > realise that's not always possible.  I'd also urge any group
> > > moderators to
> > > > > > stop using any of the features requiring a yahoo ID until
this is
> > > > > resolved.
> > > > > > If you're a member of a yahoo group, ask your list moderator
not
> to
> > > use
> > > > > any
> > > > > > of these features, as you as a blind person won't be able to
> access
> > > them.
> > > > > >
> > > > > > The yahoo signup page also says that the word verification
> technology
> > > was
> > > > > > developed in conjunction with the Captcha project (note the
> spelling)
> > > at
> > > > > > Carnegie Mellon University.  So I think we should give these
> people a
> > > hard
> > > > > > time too.
> > > > > >
> > > > > > Geoff.
> > > > > >
> > > > > >
> > > > > >
> > > > > > _______________________________________________
> > > > > > Speakup mailing list
> > > > > > Speakup@braille.uwo.ca
> > > > > > http://speech.braille.uwo.ca/mailman/listinfo/speakup
> > > > > >
> > > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > > _______________________________________________
> > > > > Speakup mailing list
> > > > > Speakup@braille.uwo.ca
> > > > > http://speech.braille.uwo.ca/mailman/listinfo/speakup
> > > > >
> > > >
> > > >
> > > > _______________________________________________
> > > > Speakup mailing list
> > > > Speakup@braille.uwo.ca
> > > > http://speech.braille.uwo.ca/mailman/listinfo/speakup
> > > >
> > > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > > _______________________________________________
> > > Speakup mailing list
> > > Speakup@braille.uwo.ca
> > > http://speech.braille.uwo.ca/mailman/listinfo/speakup
> > >
> >
> >
> > _______________________________________________
> > Speakup mailing list
> > Speakup@braille.uwo.ca
> > http://speech.braille.uwo.ca/mailman/listinfo/speakup
> >
> >
>
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> Speakup mailing list
> Speakup@braille.uwo.ca
> http://speech.braille.uwo.ca/mailman/listinfo/speakup
>


_______________________________________________
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Re: Off-topic: Yahoo registration inaccessible to all blind users

[Kirk Wood]

On Thu, 24 Jan 2002, Amanda Lee wrote:
> Yes I do however, I still can think of other methods for avoiding this
> sort of thing and to deny persons who are print disabled access is still
> absolute stupidity and I won't back down on this.  Have these idiots ever
> heard of setting up limits?  Have they heard of limiting the number of
> access, number of registrations, I probably could type in pages
> here. ...

If you really can then do so. If you really have workable ideas. As for
the limits thing, yes they can put in some limits. This will slow the
script kiddies down slightly. But not significantly. And  it will
introduce a new fallout of denying those useing corperate internet
access. Not to mention those who have an ISP that re-uses ip numbers
quickly.

Instead of calling them idiots provide solutions.

=======
Kirk Wood
Cpt.Kirk@1tree.net

Nowlan's Theory:
        He who hesitates is not only lost, but several miles from
        the next freeway exit.

Re: Off-topic: Yahoo registration inaccessible to all blind users

[Kirk Wood]

On Thu, 24 Jan 2002, David Poehlman wrote:
> how much has it actually cut down on spam?  the bots could still collect
> the addresses and some humans can still crank out sign ups quickly so
> the spam truck keeps delivering.

It has noticably cut down on the amount of spam going to the groups. I
don't know exact numbers, but have noticed a drop on the lists I belong
to. One reason it works is that spamers are as lazy as those who must send
the same stuff through email lists again and again.

=========
Kirk Wood
Cpt.Kirk@1tree.net

Nowlan's Theory:
        He who hesitates is not only lost, but several miles from
        the next freeway exit.

Re: Off-topic: Yahoo registration inaccessible to all blind us

[Amanda Lee]

Yes, absolutely, they have just slapped a big ole bandaid on top of a
festering wound!  Until they deal with root cause, those who really want
to rain on their parade will continue to make live difficult.  I'm not
certain they can stop spammers but YOu'd think they'd have sense enough to
prevent no more than so many registrations from one IP address in a given
period of time for more than just spam.  Of  course a more cumbersome
acknowledgement process may help those spammers who will happily automate
anything if they want it that badly!  I'm certain that many many other
measures are possible if anybody with S**! for brains puts some gray
matter to use!

Amanda Lee



On Thu, 24 Jan 2002, David Poehlman wrote:

> how much has it actually cut down on spam?  the bots could still collect
> the addresses and some humans can still crank out sign ups quickly so
> the spam truck keeps delivering.
>
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: "Amanda Lee" <amanda@shellworld.net>
> To: <speakup@braille.uwo.ca>
> Sent: Thursday, January 24, 2002 1:12 PM
> Subject: Re: Off-topic: Yahoo registration inaccessible to all blind
> users
>
>
> Yes I do however, I still can think of other methods for avoiding this
> sort of thing and to deny persons who are print disabled access is still
> absolute stupidity and I won't back down on this.  Have these idiots
> ever
> heard of setting up limits?  Have they heard of limiting the number of
> access, number of registrations, I probably could type in pages here.
> They are really being very short-sighted as to dealing with the real
> problem and so their solution is to barr everyone when I'd say that only
> a
> few created this situation in the first place.
>
> I feel their pain but I bet you this won't stop abuse.
>
> Amanda Lee
>
>
>
> On Thu, 24 Jan 2002, Victor Tsaran wrote:
>
> > Amanda, it is not only about mailing lists. It also has to do with the
> fact
> > that several "bad people" decided to perform, say, 1000 automatic
> > registrations at a time. They would like to register 1000 Email
> accounts on
> > Yahoo. Do you see any implications?
> > Victor
> >
> > ----- Original Message -----
> > From: "Amanda Lee" <amanda@shellworld.net>
> > To: <speakup@braille.uwo.ca>
> > Sent: Wednesday, January 23, 2002 9:25 PM
> > Subject: Re: Off-topic: Yahoo registration inaccessible to all blind
> users
> >
> >
> > > A text only interface of course!  Wonder how they are serving
> Wireless
> > > Phone and PDA users?  These devices typically can't handle a lot of
> high
> > > resolution graphics and junk!  Bessides, what the hell! is so damn!
> secure
> > > about a stupid email list?  If the FBI wants an Email list I daresay
> > > they're not going to go to Yahoo dot bomb to get one.  This is just
> a
> > > stupid excuse for not wanting to think in any different direction
> than
> > > stupidity.  Many sites have secure and not secured options for doing
> > > anything from ordering merchandise to signing up for newsletters.
> > >
> > > Amanda Lee
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > > On Wed, 23 Jan 2002, Victor Tsaran wrote:
> > >
> > > > What would you suggest instead of just complaining?
> > > > Best,
> > > > Vic
> > > >
> > > > ----- Original Message -----
> > > > From: "Steve Holmes" <steve@holmesgrown.com>
> > > > To: <speakup@braille.uwo.ca>
> > > > Sent: Wednesday, January 23, 2002 7:01 PM
> > > > Subject: Re: Off-topic: Yahoo registration inaccessible to all
> blind
> > users
> > > >
> > > >
> > > > > That's our whole point! If this kind of shit is used with Yahoo,
> > what's to
> > > > > stop other services from using that garbage in the name of
> tighter
> > > > > security? It reminds me of some products introduced some years
> back
> > that
> > > > > would play some kind of hand-eye cordination game with the user
> to
> > prove
> > > > > it is who he says he is to connect to the local dial-up network
> at
> > work.
> > > > > thank God, this stuff was never implemented at my work but they
> did
> > talk
> > > > > about it briefly til I talked them out of it.
> > > > >
> > > > > A web site or application should *NEVER* *NEVER* use bit mapped
> text
> > that
> > > > > cannot be read by any adaptive screen reader products!  The only
> good
> > > > > thing about that crap was those banner ads we could never read.
> We
> > didn't
> > > > > see them nor hear them so they didn't bother us and we never
> clicked
> > > > > them:).
> > > > >
> > > > > On Wed, 23 Jan 2002, Victor Tsaran wrote:
> > > > >
> > > > > > Hi,
> > > > > > There is really nothing Yahoo can do for you in this case.
> Unless
> > you
> > > > have
> > > > > > some ideas on how the subscription process can be changed,
> send your
> > > > > > suggestion to them. From the programming point of view, there
> is
> > nothing
> > > > > > they can do to better the situation. I know it sounds harsh,
> but
> > there
> > > > is
> > > > > > not much else to say. No kind of alt tag or picture
> description can
> > be
> > > > > > employed to make the "word" accessible.
> > > > > > Vic
> > > > > >
> > > > > > ----- Original Message -----
> > > > > > From: "Geoff Shang" <gshang@uq.net.au>
> > > > > > To: <blindcast@yahoogroups.com>; <speakup@braille.uwo.ca>;
> > > > > > <acbri-forum@acbradio.org>
> > > > > > Sent: Wednesday, January 23, 2002 12:23 PM
> > > > > > Subject: Off-topic: Yahoo registration inaccessible to all
> blind
> > users
> > > > > >
> > > > > >
> > > > > > > Hi:
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > > This is blatently off-topic.  If you're not interested, hit
> > delete.
> > > > I'd
> > > > > > > suggest not discussing it on list unless the moderator deems
> it
> > > > on-topic,
> > > > > > > but that's obviously not for me to say.  If you care at all,
> > please
> > > > feel
> > > > > > > free to spread this around.
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > > It is apparently now impossible for a blind or low vision
> person
> > to
> > > > > > > independantly register with yahoogroups, no matter what
> browser
> > they
> > > > are
> > > > > > > using.  Yahoogroups has implemented a security feature to
> stop
> > > > automated
> > > > > > > programs from spuriously registering yahoo accounts.
> > Unfortunately,
> > > > it's
> > > > > > >  preventing blind people from registering also ... and they
> know
> > it.
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > > What they've done is to implement a system where a word is
> printed
> > on
> > > > the
> > > > > > > screen as a graphic.  You have to correctly enter this word
> into
> > the
> > > > > > > sign-up form before you can register.  This is meant to
> prove that
> > > > it's a
> > > > > > > human doing the registration, but all it does prove is that
> it's a
> > > > sighted
> > > > > > > person able to read print that's doing the registration.
> They
> > have a
> > > > link
> > > > > > > to click if you can't see the word, and this is what that
> page
> > says:
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > >    What is Word Verification?
> > > > > > >    Visually impaired or blind users: We can help you
> register. So
> > that
> > > > a
> > > > > > >    customer care representative can contact you, please
> provide
> > your
> > > > > > >    phone number in addition to your required email address
> when
> > you
> > > > > > >    contact us by pasting this URL into your browser:
> > > > > > >    http://add.yahoo.com/fast/help/us/edit/cgi_access
> > > > > > >    By entering the word you see in the box, you help Yahoo!
> > prevent
> > > > > > >    automated registrations. Doing this reduces system loads
> and
> > > > ensures
> > > > > > >    better performance of Yahoo! services.
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > >    If no image appears, please make sure your browser is set
> to
> > > > display
> > > > > > >    images and try again. If you are not sure what the word
> is,
> > make
> > > > your
> > > > > > >    best guess. If you guess incorrectly, you will have an
> > opportunity
> > > > to
> > > > > > >    enter a different word on the next screen.
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > > This is pretty damning.  They are conceeding that they know
> it's
> > > > > > > inaccessibal to blind people and expect me as a blind person
> to
> > hand
> > > > over
> > > > > > > my phone number so that they can walk me through the
> registration
> > > > process.
> > > > > > > Quite aside from the fact that I do not want to give out my
> phone
> > > > number,
> > > > > > > I'm highly doubtful that someone's going to spare the
> > international
> > > > > > expence
> > > > > > > to call me in Australia.  And even if someone from Yahoo
> Australia
> > > > calls
> > > > > > > me, what if I live somewhere where there is no local yahoo
> branch?
> > > > > > someone
> > > > > > > will still have to call me, and I wonder how bothered
> they'll be
> > to do
> > > > > > > that?
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > > So what to do?  Firstly, give yahoo a hard time about it,
> both the
> > > > main
> > > > > > > yahoo in the USA and any local affiliates (e.g. yahoo UK,
> yahoo
> > Japan,
> > > > > > > yahoo Australia, etc).  I'd suggest boycotting them
> altogether,
> > but I
> > > > > > > realise that's not always possible.  I'd also urge any group
> > > > moderators to
> > > > > > > stop using any of the features requiring a yahoo ID until
> this is
> > > > > > resolved.
> > > > > > > If you're a member of a yahoo group, ask your list moderator
> not
> > to
> > > > use
> > > > > > any
> > > > > > > of these features, as you as a blind person won't be able to
> > access
> > > > them.
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > > The yahoo signup page also says that the word verification
> > technology
> > > > was
> > > > > > > developed in conjunction with the Captcha project (note the
> > spelling)
> > > > at
> > > > > > > Carnegie Mellon University.  So I think we should give these
> > people a
> > > > hard
> > > > > > > time too.
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > > Geoff.
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > > _______________________________________________
> > > > > > > Speakup mailing list
> > > > > > > Speakup@braille.uwo.ca
> > > > > > > http://speech.braille.uwo.ca/mailman/listinfo/speakup
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > >
> > > > > >
> > > > > >
> > > > > >
> > > > > > _______________________________________________
> > > > > > Speakup mailing list
> > > > > > Speakup@braille.uwo.ca
> > > > > > http://speech.braille.uwo.ca/mailman/listinfo/speakup
> > > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > > _______________________________________________
> > > > > Speakup mailing list
> > > > > Speakup@braille.uwo.ca
> > > > > http://speech.braille.uwo.ca/mailman/listinfo/speakup
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > >
> > > >
> > > >
> > > > _______________________________________________
> > > > Speakup mailing list
> > > > Speakup@braille.uwo.ca
> > > > http://speech.braille.uwo.ca/mailman/listinfo/speakup
> > > >
> > >
> > >
> > > _______________________________________________
> > > Speakup mailing list
> > > Speakup@braille.uwo.ca
> > > http://speech.braille.uwo.ca/mailman/listinfo/speakup
> > >
> > >
> >
> >
> >
> > _______________________________________________
> > Speakup mailing list
> > Speakup@braille.uwo.ca
> > http://speech.braille.uwo.ca/mailman/listinfo/speakup
> >
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> Speakup mailing list
> Speakup@braille.uwo.ca
> http://speech.braille.uwo.ca/mailman/listinfo/speakup
>
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> Speakup mailing list
> Speakup@braille.uwo.ca
> http://speech.braille.uwo.ca/mailman/listinfo/speakup
>

Re: Off-topic: Yahoo registration inaccessible to all blind users

[David Poehlman]

when the software catches with the changes, we'll see another increase.

Re: Off-topic: Yahoo registration inaccessible to all blind us

[Steve Holmes]

I wonder how long it will take some script kiddies to decode the picture
image and type back the proper response? Kinda like a mini OCR to extract
the real meaning and type it back.  Then what good did that tool do to
help yahoo? I got a feeling that process adversely impacts more people
than it does to stop.

On Thu, 24 Jan 2002, Amanda Lee wrote:

> Yes, absolutely, they have just slapped a big ole bandaid on top of a
> festering wound!  Until they deal with root cause, those who really want
> to rain on their parade will continue to make live difficult.  I'm not
> certain they can stop spammers but YOu'd think they'd have sense enough to
> prevent no more than so many registrations from one IP address in a given
> period of time for more than just spam.  Of  course a more cumbersome
> acknowledgement process may help those spammers who will happily automate
> anything if they want it that badly!  I'm certain that many many other
> measures are possible if anybody with S**! for brains puts some gray
> matter to use!
>
> Amanda Lee
>
>
>
> On Thu, 24 Jan 2002, David Poehlman wrote:
>
> > how much has it actually cut down on spam?  the bots could still collect
> > the addresses and some humans can still crank out sign ups quickly so
> > the spam truck keeps delivering.
> >
> > ----- Original Message -----
> > From: "Amanda Lee" <amanda@shellworld.net>
> > To: <speakup@braille.uwo.ca>
> > Sent: Thursday, January 24, 2002 1:12 PM
> > Subject: Re: Off-topic: Yahoo registration inaccessible to all blind
> > users
> >
> >
> > Yes I do however, I still can think of other methods for avoiding this
> > sort of thing and to deny persons who are print disabled access is still
> > absolute stupidity and I won't back down on this.  Have these idiots
> > ever
> > heard of setting up limits?  Have they heard of limiting the number of
> > access, number of registrations, I probably could type in pages here.
> > They are really being very short-sighted as to dealing with the real
> > problem and so their solution is to barr everyone when I'd say that only
> > a
> > few created this situation in the first place.
> >
> > I feel their pain but I bet you this won't stop abuse.
> >
> > Amanda Lee
> >
> >
> >
> > On Thu, 24 Jan 2002, Victor Tsaran wrote:
> >
> > > Amanda, it is not only about mailing lists. It also has to do with the
> > fact
> > > that several "bad people" decided to perform, say, 1000 automatic
> > > registrations at a time. They would like to register 1000 Email
> > accounts on
> > > Yahoo. Do you see any implications?
> > > Victor
> > >
> > > ----- Original Message -----
> > > From: "Amanda Lee" <amanda@shellworld.net>
> > > To: <speakup@braille.uwo.ca>
> > > Sent: Wednesday, January 23, 2002 9:25 PM
> > > Subject: Re: Off-topic: Yahoo registration inaccessible to all blind
> > users
> > >
> > >
> > > > A text only interface of course!  Wonder how they are serving
> > Wireless
> > > > Phone and PDA users?  These devices typically can't handle a lot of
> > high
> > > > resolution graphics and junk!  Bessides, what the hell! is so damn!
> > secure
> > > > about a stupid email list?  If the FBI wants an Email list I daresay
> > > > they're not going to go to Yahoo dot bomb to get one.  This is just
> > a
> > > > stupid excuse for not wanting to think in any different direction
> > than
> > > > stupidity.  Many sites have secure and not secured options for doing
> > > > anything from ordering merchandise to signing up for newsletters.
> > > >
> > > > Amanda Lee
> > > >
> > > >
> > > >
> > > > On Wed, 23 Jan 2002, Victor Tsaran wrote:
> > > >
> > > > > What would you suggest instead of just complaining?
> > > > > Best,
> > > > > Vic
> > > > >
> > > > > ----- Original Message -----
> > > > > From: "Steve Holmes" <steve@holmesgrown.com>
> > > > > To: <speakup@braille.uwo.ca>
> > > > > Sent: Wednesday, January 23, 2002 7:01 PM
> > > > > Subject: Re: Off-topic: Yahoo registration inaccessible to all
> > blind
> > > users
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > > > That's our whole point! If this kind of shit is used with Yahoo,
> > > what's to
> > > > > > stop other services from using that garbage in the name of
> > tighter
> > > > > > security? It reminds me of some products introduced some years
> > back
> > > that
> > > > > > would play some kind of hand-eye cordination game with the user
> > to
> > > prove
> > > > > > it is who he says he is to connect to the local dial-up network
> > at
> > > work.
> > > > > > thank God, this stuff was never implemented at my work but they
> > did
> > > talk
> > > > > > about it briefly til I talked them out of it.
> > > > > >
> > > > > > A web site or application should *NEVER* *NEVER* use bit mapped
> > text
> > > that
> > > > > > cannot be read by any adaptive screen reader products!  The only
> > good
> > > > > > thing about that crap was those banner ads we could never read.
> > We
> > > didn't
> > > > > > see them nor hear them so they didn't bother us and we never
> > clicked
> > > > > > them:).
> > > > > >
> > > > > > On Wed, 23 Jan 2002, Victor Tsaran wrote:
> > > > > >
> > > > > > > Hi,
> > > > > > > There is really nothing Yahoo can do for you in this case.
> > Unless
> > > you
> > > > > have
> > > > > > > some ideas on how the subscription process can be changed,
> > send your
> > > > > > > suggestion to them. From the programming point of view, there
> > is
> > > nothing
> > > > > > > they can do to better the situation. I know it sounds harsh,
> > but
> > > there
> > > > > is
> > > > > > > not much else to say. No kind of alt tag or picture
> > description can
> > > be
> > > > > > > employed to make the "word" accessible.
> > > > > > > Vic
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > > ----- Original Message -----
> > > > > > > From: "Geoff Shang" <gshang@uq.net.au>
> > > > > > > To: <blindcast@yahoogroups.com>; <speakup@braille.uwo.ca>;
> > > > > > > <acbri-forum@acbradio.org>
> > > > > > > Sent: Wednesday, January 23, 2002 12:23 PM
> > > > > > > Subject: Off-topic: Yahoo registration inaccessible to all
> > blind
> > > users
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > Hi:
> > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > This is blatently off-topic.  If you're not interested, hit
> > > delete.
> > > > > I'd
> > > > > > > > suggest not discussing it on list unless the moderator deems
> > it
> > > > > on-topic,
> > > > > > > > but that's obviously not for me to say.  If you care at all,
> > > please
> > > > > feel
> > > > > > > > free to spread this around.
> > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > It is apparently now impossible for a blind or low vision
> > person
> > > to
> > > > > > > > independantly register with yahoogroups, no matter what
> > browser
> > > they
> > > > > are
> > > > > > > > using.  Yahoogroups has implemented a security feature to
> > stop
> > > > > automated
> > > > > > > > programs from spuriously registering yahoo accounts.
> > > Unfortunately,
> > > > > it's
> > > > > > > >  preventing blind people from registering also ... and they
> > know
> > > it.
> > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > What they've done is to implement a system where a word is
> > printed
> > > on
> > > > > the
> > > > > > > > screen as a graphic.  You have to correctly enter this word
> > into
> > > the
> > > > > > > > sign-up form before you can register.  This is meant to
> > prove that
> > > > > it's a
> > > > > > > > human doing the registration, but all it does prove is that
> > it's a
> > > > > sighted
> > > > > > > > person able to read print that's doing the registration.
> > They
> > > have a
> > > > > link
> > > > > > > > to click if you can't see the word, and this is what that
> > page
> > > says:
> > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > >    What is Word Verification?
> > > > > > > >    Visually impaired or blind users: We can help you
> > register. So
> > > that
> > > > > a
> > > > > > > >    customer care representative can contact you, please
> > provide
> > > your
> > > > > > > >    phone number in addition to your required email address
> > when
> > > you
> > > > > > > >    contact us by pasting this URL into your browser:
> > > > > > > >    http://add.yahoo.com/fast/help/us/edit/cgi_access
> > > > > > > >    By entering the word you see in the box, you help Yahoo!
> > > prevent
> > > > > > > >    automated registrations. Doing this reduces system loads
> > and
> > > > > ensures
> > > > > > > >    better performance of Yahoo! services.
> > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > >    If no image appears, please make sure your browser is set
> > to
> > > > > display
> > > > > > > >    images and try again. If you are not sure what the word
> > is,
> > > make
> > > > > your
> > > > > > > >    best guess. If you guess incorrectly, you will have an
> > > opportunity
> > > > > to
> > > > > > > >    enter a different word on the next screen.
> > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > This is pretty damning.  They are conceeding that they know
> > it's
> > > > > > > > inaccessibal to blind people and expect me as a blind person
> > to
> > > hand
> > > > > over
> > > > > > > > my phone number so that they can walk me through the
> > registration
> > > > > process.
> > > > > > > > Quite aside from the fact that I do not want to give out my
> > phone
> > > > > number,
> > > > > > > > I'm highly doubtful that someone's going to spare the
> > > international
> > > > > > > expence
> > > > > > > > to call me in Australia.  And even if someone from Yahoo
> > Australia
> > > > > calls
> > > > > > > > me, what if I live somewhere where there is no local yahoo
> > branch?
> > > > > > > someone
> > > > > > > > will still have to call me, and I wonder how bothered
> > they'll be
> > > to do
> > > > > > > > that?
> > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > So what to do?  Firstly, give yahoo a hard time about it,
> > both the
> > > > > main
> > > > > > > > yahoo in the USA and any local affiliates (e.g. yahoo UK,
> > yahoo
> > > Japan,
> > > > > > > > yahoo Australia, etc).  I'd suggest boycotting them
> > altogether,
> > > but I
> > > > > > > > realise that's not always possible.  I'd also urge any group
> > > > > moderators to
> > > > > > > > stop using any of the features requiring a yahoo ID until
> > this is
> > > > > > > resolved.
> > > > > > > > If you're a member of a yahoo group, ask your list moderator
> > not
> > > to
> > > > > use
> > > > > > > any
> > > > > > > > of these features, as you as a blind person won't be able to
> > > access
> > > > > them.
> > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > The yahoo signup page also says that the word verification
> > > technology
> > > > > was
> > > > > > > > developed in conjunction with the Captcha project (note the
> > > spelling)
> > > > > at
> > > > > > > > Carnegie Mellon University.  So I think we should give these
> > > people a
> > > > > hard
> > > > > > > > time too.
> > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > Geoff.
> > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > _______________________________________________
> > > > > > > > Speakup mailing list
> > > > > > > > Speakup@braille.uwo.ca
> > > > > > > > http://speech.braille.uwo.ca/mailman/listinfo/speakup
> > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > >
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > > _______________________________________________
> > > > > > > Speakup mailing list
> > > > > > > Speakup@braille.uwo.ca
> > > > > > > http://speech.braille.uwo.ca/mailman/listinfo/speakup
> > > > > > >
> > > > > >
> > > > > >
> > > > > > _______________________________________________
> > > > > > Speakup mailing list
> > > > > > Speakup@braille.uwo.ca
> > > > > > http://speech.braille.uwo.ca/mailman/listinfo/speakup
> > > > > >
> > > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > > _______________________________________________
> > > > > Speakup mailing list
> > > > > Speakup@braille.uwo.ca
> > > > > http://speech.braille.uwo.ca/mailman/listinfo/speakup
> > > > >
> > > >
> > > >
> > > > _______________________________________________
> > > > Speakup mailing list
> > > > Speakup@braille.uwo.ca
> > > > http://speech.braille.uwo.ca/mailman/listinfo/speakup
> > > >
> > > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > > _______________________________________________
> > > Speakup mailing list
> > > Speakup@braille.uwo.ca
> > > http://speech.braille.uwo.ca/mailman/listinfo/speakup
> > >
> >
> >
> > _______________________________________________
> > Speakup mailing list
> > Speakup@braille.uwo.ca
> > http://speech.braille.uwo.ca/mailman/listinfo/speakup
> >
> >
> >
> > _______________________________________________
> > Speakup mailing list
> > Speakup@braille.uwo.ca
> > http://speech.braille.uwo.ca/mailman/listinfo/speakup
> >
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> Speakup mailing list
> Speakup@braille.uwo.ca
> http://speech.braille.uwo.ca/mailman/listinfo/speakup
>

Re: Off-topic: Yahoo registration inaccessible to all blind us

[David Poehlman]

send it to tiff and ocr it is all it should take unless they've done
someting fancy to it.
----- Original Message -----
From: "Steve Holmes" <steve@holmesgrown.com>
To: <speakup@braille.uwo.ca>
Sent: Thursday, January 24, 2002 2:43 PM
Subject: Re: Off-topic: Yahoo registration inaccessible to all blind us


I wonder how long it will take some script kiddies to decode the picture
image and type back the proper response? Kinda like a mini OCR to
extract
the real meaning and type it back.  Then what good did that tool do to
help yahoo? I got a feeling that process adversely impacts more people
than it does to stop.

On Thu, 24 Jan 2002, Amanda Lee wrote:

> Yes, absolutely, they have just slapped a big ole bandaid on top of a
> festering wound!  Until they deal with root cause, those who really
want
> to rain on their parade will continue to make live difficult.  I'm not
> certain they can stop spammers but YOu'd think they'd have sense
enough to
> prevent no more than so many registrations from one IP address in a
given
> period of time for more than just spam.  Of  course a more cumbersome
> acknowledgement process may help those spammers who will happily
automate
> anything if they want it that badly!  I'm certain that many many other
> measures are possible if anybody with S**! for brains puts some gray
> matter to use!
>
> Amanda Lee
>
>
>
> On Thu, 24 Jan 2002, David Poehlman wrote:
>
> > how much has it actually cut down on spam?  the bots could still
collect
> > the addresses and some humans can still crank out sign ups quickly
so
> > the spam truck keeps delivering.
> >
> > ----- Original Message -----
> > From: "Amanda Lee" <amanda@shellworld.net>
> > To: <speakup@braille.uwo.ca>
> > Sent: Thursday, January 24, 2002 1:12 PM
> > Subject: Re: Off-topic: Yahoo registration inaccessible to all blind
> > users
> >
> >
> > Yes I do however, I still can think of other methods for avoiding
this
> > sort of thing and to deny persons who are print disabled access is
still
> > absolute stupidity and I won't back down on this.  Have these idiots
> > ever
> > heard of setting up limits?  Have they heard of limiting the number
of
> > access, number of registrations, I probably could type in pages
here.
> > They are really being very short-sighted as to dealing with the real
> > problem and so their solution is to barr everyone when I'd say that
only
> > a
> > few created this situation in the first place.
> >
> > I feel their pain but I bet you this won't stop abuse.
> >
> > Amanda Lee
> >
> >
> >
> > On Thu, 24 Jan 2002, Victor Tsaran wrote:
> >
> > > Amanda, it is not only about mailing lists. It also has to do with
the
> > fact
> > > that several "bad people" decided to perform, say, 1000 automatic
> > > registrations at a time. They would like to register 1000 Email
> > accounts on
> > > Yahoo. Do you see any implications?
> > > Victor
> > >
> > > ----- Original Message -----
> > > From: "Amanda Lee" <amanda@shellworld.net>
> > > To: <speakup@braille.uwo.ca>
> > > Sent: Wednesday, January 23, 2002 9:25 PM
> > > Subject: Re: Off-topic: Yahoo registration inaccessible to all
blind
> > users
> > >
> > >
> > > > A text only interface of course!  Wonder how they are serving
> > Wireless
> > > > Phone and PDA users?  These devices typically can't handle a lot
of
> > high
> > > > resolution graphics and junk!  Bessides, what the hell! is so
damn!
> > secure
> > > > about a stupid email list?  If the FBI wants an Email list I
daresay
> > > > they're not going to go to Yahoo dot bomb to get one.  This is
just
> > a
> > > > stupid excuse for not wanting to think in any different
direction
> > than
> > > > stupidity.  Many sites have secure and not secured options for
doing
> > > > anything from ordering merchandise to signing up for
newsletters.
> > > >
> > > > Amanda Lee
> > > >
> > > >
> > > >
> > > > On Wed, 23 Jan 2002, Victor Tsaran wrote:
> > > >
> > > > > What would you suggest instead of just complaining?
> > > > > Best,
> > > > > Vic
> > > > >
> > > > > ----- Original Message -----
> > > > > From: "Steve Holmes" <steve@holmesgrown.com>
> > > > > To: <speakup@braille.uwo.ca>
> > > > > Sent: Wednesday, January 23, 2002 7:01 PM
> > > > > Subject: Re: Off-topic: Yahoo registration inaccessible to all
> > blind
> > > users
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > > > That's our whole point! If this kind of shit is used with
Yahoo,
> > > what's to
> > > > > > stop other services from using that garbage in the name of
> > tighter
> > > > > > security? It reminds me of some products introduced some
years
> > back
> > > that
> > > > > > would play some kind of hand-eye cordination game with the
user
> > to
> > > prove
> > > > > > it is who he says he is to connect to the local dial-up
network
> > at
> > > work.
> > > > > > thank God, this stuff was never implemented at my work but
they
> > did
> > > talk
> > > > > > about it briefly til I talked them out of it.
> > > > > >
> > > > > > A web site or application should *NEVER* *NEVER* use bit
mapped
> > text
> > > that
> > > > > > cannot be read by any adaptive screen reader products!  The
only
> > good
> > > > > > thing about that crap was those banner ads we could never
read.
> > We
> > > didn't
> > > > > > see them nor hear them so they didn't bother us and we never
> > clicked
> > > > > > them:).
> > > > > >
> > > > > > On Wed, 23 Jan 2002, Victor Tsaran wrote:
> > > > > >
> > > > > > > Hi,
> > > > > > > There is really nothing Yahoo can do for you in this case.
> > Unless
> > > you
> > > > > have
> > > > > > > some ideas on how the subscription process can be changed,
> > send your
> > > > > > > suggestion to them. From the programming point of view,
there
> > is
> > > nothing
> > > > > > > they can do to better the situation. I know it sounds
harsh,
> > but
> > > there
> > > > > is
> > > > > > > not much else to say. No kind of alt tag or picture
> > description can
> > > be
> > > > > > > employed to make the "word" accessible.
> > > > > > > Vic
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > > ----- Original Message -----
> > > > > > > From: "Geoff Shang" <gshang@uq.net.au>
> > > > > > > To: <blindcast@yahoogroups.com>; <speakup@braille.uwo.ca>;
> > > > > > > <acbri-forum@acbradio.org>
> > > > > > > Sent: Wednesday, January 23, 2002 12:23 PM
> > > > > > > Subject: Off-topic: Yahoo registration inaccessible to all
> > blind
> > > users
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > Hi:
> > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > This is blatently off-topic.  If you're not interested,
hit
> > > delete.
> > > > > I'd
> > > > > > > > suggest not discussing it on list unless the moderator
deems
> > it
> > > > > on-topic,
> > > > > > > > but that's obviously not for me to say.  If you care at
all,
> > > please
> > > > > feel
> > > > > > > > free to spread this around.
> > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > It is apparently now impossible for a blind or low
vision
> > person
> > > to
> > > > > > > > independantly register with yahoogroups, no matter what
> > browser
> > > they
> > > > > are
> > > > > > > > using.  Yahoogroups has implemented a security feature
to
> > stop
> > > > > automated
> > > > > > > > programs from spuriously registering yahoo accounts.
> > > Unfortunately,
> > > > > it's
> > > > > > > >  preventing blind people from registering also ... and
they
> > know
> > > it.
> > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > What they've done is to implement a system where a word
is
> > printed
> > > on
> > > > > the
> > > > > > > > screen as a graphic.  You have to correctly enter this
word
> > into
> > > the
> > > > > > > > sign-up form before you can register.  This is meant to
> > prove that
> > > > > it's a
> > > > > > > > human doing the registration, but all it does prove is
that
> > it's a
> > > > > sighted
> > > > > > > > person able to read print that's doing the registration.
> > They
> > > have a
> > > > > link
> > > > > > > > to click if you can't see the word, and this is what
that
> > page
> > > says:
> > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > >    What is Word Verification?
> > > > > > > >    Visually impaired or blind users: We can help you
> > register. So
> > > that
> > > > > a
> > > > > > > >    customer care representative can contact you, please
> > provide
> > > your
> > > > > > > >    phone number in addition to your required email
address
> > when
> > > you
> > > > > > > >    contact us by pasting this URL into your browser:
> > > > > > > >    http://add.yahoo.com/fast/help/us/edit/cgi_access
> > > > > > > >    By entering the word you see in the box, you help
Yahoo!
> > > prevent
> > > > > > > >    automated registrations. Doing this reduces system
loads
> > and
> > > > > ensures
> > > > > > > >    better performance of Yahoo! services.
> > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > >    If no image appears, please make sure your browser is
set
> > to
> > > > > display
> > > > > > > >    images and try again. If you are not sure what the
word
> > is,
> > > make
> > > > > your
> > > > > > > >    best guess. If you guess incorrectly, you will have
an
> > > opportunity
> > > > > to
> > > > > > > >    enter a different word on the next screen.
> > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > This is pretty damning.  They are conceeding that they
know
> > it's
> > > > > > > > inaccessibal to blind people and expect me as a blind
person
> > to
> > > hand
> > > > > over
> > > > > > > > my phone number so that they can walk me through the
> > registration
> > > > > process.
> > > > > > > > Quite aside from the fact that I do not want to give out
my
> > phone
> > > > > number,
> > > > > > > > I'm highly doubtful that someone's going to spare the
> > > international
> > > > > > > expence
> > > > > > > > to call me in Australia.  And even if someone from Yahoo
> > Australia
> > > > > calls
> > > > > > > > me, what if I live somewhere where there is no local
yahoo
> > branch?
> > > > > > > someone
> > > > > > > > will still have to call me, and I wonder how bothered
> > they'll be
> > > to do
> > > > > > > > that?
> > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > So what to do?  Firstly, give yahoo a hard time about
it,
> > both the
> > > > > main
> > > > > > > > yahoo in the USA and any local affiliates (e.g. yahoo
UK,
> > yahoo
> > > Japan,
> > > > > > > > yahoo Australia, etc).  I'd suggest boycotting them
> > altogether,
> > > but I
> > > > > > > > realise that's not always possible.  I'd also urge any
group
> > > > > moderators to
> > > > > > > > stop using any of the features requiring a yahoo ID
until
> > this is
> > > > > > > resolved.
> > > > > > > > If you're a member of a yahoo group, ask your list
moderator
> > not
> > > to
> > > > > use
> > > > > > > any
> > > > > > > > of these features, as you as a blind person won't be
able to
> > > access
> > > > > them.
> > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > The yahoo signup page also says that the word
verification
> > > technology
> > > > > was
> > > > > > > > developed in conjunction with the Captcha project (note
the
> > > spelling)
> > > > > at
> > > > > > > > Carnegie Mellon University.  So I think we should give
these
> > > people a
> > > > > hard
> > > > > > > > time too.
> > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > Geoff.
> > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > _______________________________________________
> > > > > > > > Speakup mailing list
> > > > > > > > Speakup@braille.uwo.ca
> > > > > > > > http://speech.braille.uwo.ca/mailman/listinfo/speakup
> > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > >
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > > _______________________________________________
> > > > > > > Speakup mailing list
> > > > > > > Speakup@braille.uwo.ca
> > > > > > > http://speech.braille.uwo.ca/mailman/listinfo/speakup
> > > > > > >
> > > > > >
> > > > > >
> > > > > > _______________________________________________
> > > > > > Speakup mailing list
> > > > > > Speakup@braille.uwo.ca
> > > > > > http://speech.braille.uwo.ca/mailman/listinfo/speakup
> > > > > >
> > > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > > _______________________________________________
> > > > > Speakup mailing list
> > > > > Speakup@braille.uwo.ca
> > > > > http://speech.braille.uwo.ca/mailman/listinfo/speakup
> > > > >
> > > >
> > > >
> > > > _______________________________________________
> > > > Speakup mailing list
> > > > Speakup@braille.uwo.ca
> > > > http://speech.braille.uwo.ca/mailman/listinfo/speakup
> > > >
> > > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > > _______________________________________________
> > > Speakup mailing list
> > > Speakup@braille.uwo.ca
> > > http://speech.braille.uwo.ca/mailman/listinfo/speakup
> > >
> >
> >
> > _______________________________________________
> > Speakup mailing list
> > Speakup@braille.uwo.ca
> > http://speech.braille.uwo.ca/mailman/listinfo/speakup
> >
> >
> >
> > _______________________________________________
> > Speakup mailing list
> > Speakup@braille.uwo.ca
> > http://speech.braille.uwo.ca/mailman/listinfo/speakup
> >
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> Speakup mailing list
> Speakup@braille.uwo.ca
> http://speech.braille.uwo.ca/mailman/listinfo/speakup
>


_______________________________________________
Speakup mailing list
Speakup@braille.uwo.ca
http://speech.braille.uwo.ca/mailman/listinfo/speakup

Re: Off-topic: Yahoo registration inaccessible to all blind us

[Kirk Wood]

On Thu, 24 Jan 2002, Steve Holmes wrote:
> I wonder how long it will take some script kiddies to decode the picture
> image and type back the proper response? Kinda like a mini OCR to extract
> the real meaning and type it back.  Then what good did that tool do to
> help yahoo? I got a feeling that process adversely impacts more people
> than it does to stop.

Probably longer then it will take to stop people from endlessly quoting in
their replys. The graphics would be tough for OCR.

=======
Kirk Wood
Cpt.Kirk@1tree.net

Nowlan's Theory:
        He who hesitates is not only lost, but several miles from
        the next freeway exit.