RE: text to html

RE: text to html

[Sina Bahram]

With all do respect to her and yourself, I could care less about
someone's title or job. I respect them for it, I even commend them for
it; however, if I feel that anyone, anyone at all, is making unfounded
remarks and being insultive simply because they believe themselves to be
correct on a subject, I take afense and also I wish to rectify such a
situation. I would advise you, my friend, to read the other messages in
this post, and judge for yourself if I have once been rude, ignorant (as
she so elegantly puts it), or incorrect. I told her, and I will tell you
too. If she can prove to me with some evidence or proof that I am wrong.
I will write her an email she'll never forget, aplauding her excelence
and greatness, while asking her if I may be so honored to have her
emails grace my inbox; however, I will not sit by and take such
treatment with just cause. And it is not only I that she has thus
treated.

Take care,
Sina

-----Original Message-----
From: speakup-admin@braille.uwo.ca [mailto:speakup-admin@braille.uwo.ca]
On Behalf Of Ann Parsons
Sent: Tuesday, August 26, 2003 8:14 PM
To: speakup@braille.uwo.ca
Subject: RE: text to html


Hi all,

I haven't been following this thread, but this message caught my eye.

>>>>> "Sina" == Sina Bahram <sbahram@nc.rr.com> writes:

    Sina> Respectfully, I again ask for any evidence that my advice is
    Sina> contrary to any disabled person's accessing of the text. I
    Sina> myself am low vision, and use screen readers; however, I
    Sina> also use my site when I can. And I am telling you as a user
    Sina> that visually the pre element tag is not inaccessible. It
    Sina> also doesn't present any problems as does any part of the
    Sina> entire internet to a mobility impaired individual. Any part
    Sina> of accessing the internet might present some problems to
    Sina> such an individual; however, my advice delt with the web
    Sina> design of a site and I stand by it until corrected by
    Sina> someone knowledgeable about what their talking about.

Someone knowledgeable about the subject?  <sardonic grin>  Um, Sina,
Janina works for the AFB.  Her job is to evaluate technology to see how
accessible it is for the blind and others with disabilities.  I believe
that she is involved with the WAI Group, plus folks working on DAISY
books plus a great deal more which I don't know about.  

Sina, my friend, you've just tangled with a tigress.  If Janina says a
given tag in HTML will not work or isn't accessible, then I'd tend to
prick up my ears and pay attention.  Indeed, if Janina tells you
anything about HTML, XML, DAISY, or anything else having to do with
computers and accessibility, well, I'd tend to  pay attention.  I have a
feeling that she knows what she's talking about. 

As for web site accessibility for PWD and what is and isn't accessible,
I can't say, except that there are sites that are not accessible for the
mobility impaired because there is a time element involved in doing some
of the interactive things on some web sites. There are lots of factors
involved in accessibility. 

If you persist in tangling with a tigress, more power to ya, but---

Ann P.


-- 
			Ann K. Parsons  
email:  akp@eznet.net 			ICQ Number:  33006854
WEB SITE:  http://home.eznet.net/~akp
"All that is gold does not glitter.  Not all those who wander are lost."
JRRT


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Re: text to html

[Christopher Moore]

Here's the deal.  If you can read the webpage withg jaws, hpr and lynx,
then it's accessible.  

Chris

RE: text to html

[Sina Bahram]

Ouch. She's going to eat you because of that *smile*. I do agree that
covers a wide majorit of the accessibility issues, and as long as you
make an account for any audio you have on your site for the hearing
impaired crowd, I would tend to agree with this statement; however, I
don't believe the tigress has come to kill me yet, I am still waiting
for my proof/evidence *smile*

Take care all,
Sina

-----Original Message-----
From: speakup-admin@braille.uwo.ca [mailto:speakup-admin@braille.uwo.ca]
On Behalf Of Christopher Moore
Sent: Tuesday, August 26, 2003 9:50 PM
To: speakup@braille.uwo.ca
Subject: Re: text to html


Here's the deal.  If you can read the webpage withg jaws, hpr and lynx,
then it's accessible.  

Chris

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Speakup@braille.uwo.ca
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RE: text to html

[Pawel Loba]

Hi: There is no need to be cynical here. 
Janina does not need my support to defense her points but she is widely 
known activist for her involvement into the accessibility/advocacy issues 
not only in our community, and the respectful advocate of needs of any disable 
group. As she said, she doesn't have a time to reply yet but she would and 
you will get 'your proof/evidence' but in the min time, don't try to be funny 
because you are not.

*RESPECTFULLY*
Paul.

On Tue, 26 Aug 2003, Sina Bahram wrote:

> Ouch. She's going to eat you because of that *smile*. I do agree that
> covers a wide majorit of the accessibility issues, and as long as you
> make an account for any audio you have on your site for the hearing
> impaired crowd, I would tend to agree with this statement; however, I
> don't believe the tigress has come to kill me yet, I am still waiting
> for my proof/evidence *smile*
> 
> Take care all,
> Sina
> 
> -----Original Message-----
> From: speakup-admin@braille.uwo.ca [mailto:speakup-admin@braille.uwo.ca]
> On Behalf Of Christopher Moore
> Sent: Tuesday, August 26, 2003 9:50 PM
> To: speakup@braille.uwo.ca
> Subject: Re: text to html
> 
> 
> Here's the deal.  If you can read the webpage withg jaws, hpr and lynx,
> then it's accessible.  
> 
> Chris
> 
> _______________________________________________
> Speakup mailing list
> Speakup@braille.uwo.ca
> http://speech.braille.uwo.ca/mailman/listinfo/speakup
> 
> 
> 
> _______________________________________________
> Speakup mailing list
> Speakup@braille.uwo.ca
> http://speech.braille.uwo.ca/mailman/listinfo/speakup
> 

Re: text to html

[Ann Parsons]

Hi all,

<smile>  Now I'm beginning to get interested about this thread.  

>>>>> "Christopher" == Christopher Moore <christopher.h.moore@verizon.net> writes:

    Christopher> Here's the deal.  If you can read the webpage withg
    Christopher> jaws, hpr and lynx, then it's accessible.


That's sort of a simplistic answer, Chris, my friend.  You're right
sort of, but there are a lot of factors that go into making a web page
accessible.  Those three tests are good, but they only test for
accessibility with screen readers.  What about zoomtext?  What about
timed links that need to be extended so that people with mobility
impairments can access them?  There's a whole lot of stuff to
consider.

As I have explained, I haven't read the thread.  I understand that
Sina wants to make some quick changes to a web site to make it
accessible until a more permanent solution can be found?  This may be
a good bandade, but will the webmaster continue to look for solutions
if a quick fix is found?  My personal preference would be to fix the
blessed page permanently from the get-go.  But, as I say, I don't know
the whole situation, and this may not be an option.  

Me thinks I'm going to sit back and read this thread to see what is
actually going on here.  

Try not to kill each other, folks.

<smile>
Ann P.

-- 
			Ann K. Parsons  
email:  akp@eznet.net 			ICQ Number:  33006854
WEB SITE:  http://home.eznet.net/~akp
"All that is gold does not glitter.  Not all those who wander are lost."  JRRT

Re: text to html

[Toby Fisher]

On Mon, 25 Aug 2003, Jacob Schmude wrote:

> Hi
> Actually, there are a few. Gnu pascal is one such compiler, but that requires you to rebuild your GCC to implement pascal. Another is Free Pascal
> http://www.freepascal.org
> It seems mostly turbo pascal compatible and you can get binaries that are ready-built for linux.
> 
> HTH

There's also another if slightly cludgy option. 


You could always write your code, then stuff it through p2c and then use 
Gcc to compile it.

Cheers.

-- 
Toby Fisher	Email: toby@tjfisher.co.uk
Tel.: +44(0)1480 417272	Mobile: +44(0)7974 363239
ICQ: #61744808
   Please avoid sending me Word or PowerPoint attachments.
   See http://www.fsf.org/philosophy/no-word-attachments.html
 

RE: text to html

[Whitley GS11 Cecil H]

[-- Attachment #1: Type: text/plain, Size: 781 bytes --]



-----Original Message-----
From: Shaun Oliver [mailto:shaun_oliver@optusnet.com.au]
>if there's a quick and dirty hack that can be used until a suitable
>replacement is put in place, why not for christ sakes.
>it's not as if it's going to be there for all time,

That's the attitude I "see" a lot.  The only thing is that "temporary" can
mean years.....  Retrofitting accessability is expensive, the people here
just don't get that it was "supposed" to be accessable in the first place.
Section 508 doesn't mean squat.  It's the same old same old 

Rest of rant contained.....
Cecil
P.s.  I just have to, sorry, can't help it, must make comment, can't hold it
in any longer.......
Get buggered, after all it won't be there for all time......
Okay, i've got control back...*whew*

[-- Attachment #2: Type: text/html, Size: 1481 bytes --]

RE: text to html

[Whitley GS11 Cecil H]

[-- Attachment #1: Type: text/plain, Size: 602 bytes --]

Hi,
Those interested can check out the gnosis package for python.  It has a
txt2html sub package.  It's point is to prepare source files and papers for
presentation and does so by converting them to html.  Furthur details can be
found as part of the packages documentation.  The long and short is that
line spacing and indentation of the text file provide formatting information
that is used by the program in generating titles, headings, and markup.
Since source is distributed, if you know python you can modify what means
what to get a finer level of control over text to html translation.  

Cecil

[-- Attachment #2: Type: text/html, Size: 1002 bytes --]

Re: text to html

[Chuck Hallenbeck]

HO HUM




-- 
The Moon is Waxing Crescent (27% of Full)
 Get my public key from website, http://www.mhonline.net/~chuckh

RE: text to html

[Sina Bahram]

Hi Ann, I just wanted to say a few things real quick. Thanks for your
contributions to the discussion. I do value Janina's opinions and
statements. Giving me a list of her work experiences might make my
admiration for all the work she has done raise another notch, and
personally I have nothing against her, as I hope the same goes for
myself; however, we just seem to disagree upon this issue and work
experience while valued in its addition of validity to Janina's position
does not really affect the argument in my opinion. Also by the way
*smile* I am male, my name is persian so most people don't recognize it
*smile*.

Have a great one,
Sina

-----Original Message-----
From: speakup-admin@braille.uwo.ca [mailto:speakup-admin@braille.uwo.ca]
On Behalf Of Ann Parsons
Sent: Sunday, August 31, 2003 4:03 PM
To: speakup@braille.uwo.ca
Subject: Re: text to html


Hi all,

Well, Janina you have a valid point.  One should examine any opinion or
knowledge dispensed to see its validity.  However, having never seen
Sina's name on here, I just wondered if she knew with whom she was
speaking.  

Even The Pope can make mistakes, and this from a practicing Catholic,
but it does pay to know it's The Pope speaking if you're going to
evaluate a statement for validity.  One assumes that The Pope has a
reasonable amount of experience which would be used in making statement.
Same is true for you.  I would evaluate whatever you said in light of my
own experience and in light of past experience of your posts.  Giving
Sina a list of your work experience would help her  to evaluate
properly.  One should always evaluate from a position of knowledge.
<smile> 

Ann P.

-- 
			Ann K. Parsons  
email:  akp@eznet.net 			ICQ Number:  33006854
WEB SITE:  http://home.eznet.net/~akp
"All that is gold does not glitter.  Not all those who wander are lost."
JRRT


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RE: text to html

[Sina Bahram]

First of all, great job on your exhaustive documentation of the issue.
Also, I got all four of your emails, so while I'm replying to this one,
it goes for all four. I don't want to clutter the list with four emails
to every part of your paper, so I'll try to address them all here.

I was using personal experience as a support and definitely not a soul
support or even as the basis of my judgement or analysis of the pre
element tag and it's accessibility or lack there of. I also did not say
that it was ok to use this tag in the form of
<html><body><pre>content</pre></body></html> for the site, as I backed
up with a follow up email. I don't have the quote on me but it went
something like this if you read it.

I can help you get a temporary site up, while using some pre element
tags, I can get a better site up in your time constraint and then also
work with you on totally erasing all <pre> element tags and moving over
to style sheets or something that would fit more with your needs and
accessibility requirements.

Note that, the above text is not a direct quote but a paraphrase of a
follow up email I sent to Luke and others on the list with the same
subject as we have been using for this thread. Also, I wanted to state
that the w3c doesn't seem to be directly discouraging the use of this
tag through any documents I have chanced to read. It seems to be
discouraging certain principals and practices which you aptly compare to
the pre element tag. This is wonderful, I thank you for watching out for
the accessibility of a site. And as I stated before, I have no qualms
about the fact that the pre element tag is the most accessible in the
world; however, you keep stating that it would disrupt the accessibility
to...for example *people who have difficulties understanding large
blocks of text*

Well, it is the designer's responsibility to not use it in this fashion.
As any tag, even stylesheets or any other element can be exhaustively
and ridiculously overused, so can the pre element tag. I wanted to know
a specific example if you would? Maybe by looking at the page that
resulted from this email thread to begin with? I would love to hear your
feed back on that precise page, and since you are familiar with all the
disabilities and problems that individuals with disabilities face on the
internet, you would be a great judge of that exact page. However,
judging a page on it's use of a tag without looking at how it should be
used is not exactly fare to the developer of the page, no matter how
temporary the fix may be. 

I will also agree with you that the pre element tag should be avoided
because of the very debates it has spawned here; however, you seem to
put little value in time constraints and in a specific example...while
you relate everything to a perfect and ideal kind of world. You
mentioned languages in your first email, the #1 of 3.

I am amazed to here this. Does this mean that every single page on the
internet, I can't even begin to imagine how many pages that is, needs to
be in every single possible language known to man? This would
exponentially grow the size of the most simple websites to litterally
thousands of pages with hundreds of different combinations and
permutations of languages. 

I wish, more than you might recognize, that the entire internet was as
accessible to me as it is to any non-disabled individual; however, I
also recognize some reality here. This does not mean that I am giving up
or saying "oh well, it's nothing that can be done about it". I am
however stating that sometimes, discretion and wise decisions are
necessary. If I have a deadline, and my option is to get a site up in
one hour, accessible or not accessible. And to make this accessible
would supercede my hour. Then I'm sorry, I would put up the unaccessible
site, even adding a note of it's unaccessibility and my sincere
apologies. I would then work on, even if it were my own time, to make
that site accessible.

Anyways, I am afraid I must go off to an appointment right now. Thanks
again for your research and have a great labor day holiday.

Take care all,
Sina

Re: text to html

[Ann Parsons]

Hi all,

Well, Janina you have a valid point.  One should examine any opinion
or knowledge dispensed to see its validity.  However, having never
seen Sina's name on here, I just wondered if she knew with whom she
was speaking.  

Even The Pope can make mistakes, and this from a practicing Catholic,
but it does pay to know it's The Pope speaking if you're going to
evaluate a statement for validity.  One assumes that The Pope has a
reasonable amount of experience which would be used in making
statement.  Same is true for you.  I would evaluate whatever you said
in light of my own experience and in light of past experience of your
posts.  Giving Sina a list of your work experience would help her  to
evaluate properly.  One should always evaluate from a position of
knowledge.  <smile> 

Ann P.

-- 
			Ann K. Parsons  
email:  akp@eznet.net 			ICQ Number:  33006854
WEB SITE:  http://home.eznet.net/~akp
"All that is gold does not glitter.  Not all those who wander are lost."  JRRT

Re: text to html

[Janina Sajka]

I imagine by now you have seen the three message response I have posted.
One side benefit of writing and researching that document is that I can
now use the W3C's own words, far more diplomatically cast than mine, in
responding to you. Once again, I'm responding here to the part of your
message were you say (and I quote):

"I myself am low vision, and use screen readers; however, I also use my site
when I can. And I am telling you as a user that visually the pre element tag is not inaccessible."

I believe the following quote from the WCAG, also included in my
response, is germane and critical to a proper understanding of first
person analysis. Please note, had you said something like "I don't find
it inaccessible," or perhaps "it seems accessible to me," I would have
no complaint with your statement. But, you didn't say anything like
that, so I quote you the following from the introduction of WCAG 1.0
(available on the web at 

http://www.w3.org/TR/WAI-WEBCONTENT/#Introduction

   "For those unfamiliar with accessibility issues pertaining to Web page
      design, consider that many users may be operating in contexts very
         different from your own: ... "

I am doing my best to say to you that personal experience is only part of the
story. 

Sina Bahram writes:
> From: "Sina Bahram" <sbahram@nc.rr.com>
> 
> Respectfully, I again ask for any evidence that my advice is contrary to
> any disabled person's accessing of the text. I myself am low vision, and
> use screen readers; however, I also use my site when I can. And I am
> telling you as a user that visually the pre element tag is not
> inaccessible. It also doesn't present any problems as does any part of
> the entire internet to a mobility impaired individual. Any part of
> accessing the internet might present some problems to such an
> individual; however, my advice delt with the web design of a site and I
> stand by it until corrected by someone knowledgable about what their
> talking about, or by someone who can actually provide evidence and proof
> as you have repeatedly failed to do. You might be repeating yourself,
> and I am truly sory to hear that, because I have to read your messages
> as well and be in wonder that someone can be so misinformed and so
> closed minded about such an issue. I also caution that repeating one's
> self does not indicate correctness, actually more so than not it
> indicates error.
> 
> Luke I look forward to your reply as well. About the byte limitation,
> just start erasing all the bottom messages other than yours and maybe
> the message right under yours. That way you'll have the necessary bite
> size to pass the server.
> 
> Take care,
> Sina
> 
> -----Original Message-----
> From: speakup-admin@braille.uwo.ca [mailto:speakup-admin@braille.uwo.ca]
> On Behalf Of Janina Sajka
> Sent: Tuesday, August 26, 2003 10:40 AM
> To: speakup@braille.uwo.ca
> Subject: Re: text to html
> 
> 
> It is self-centered to say that some certain kind of html markup is
> accessible because it can be read by a screen reader. Many people make
> this kind of mistake. The self-centerdness here is the assumption that
> accessibility is just about blind people who use screen readers. It's
> not. It isn't even just just about blind people. People who live with
> low vision, for example, have very different needs than screen reader
> users. So, also do people with mobility disabilities. The list goes on.
> 
> I do believe I pointed this out in my message. I do feel I'm repeating
> myself here.
> 
> 
> 
> _______________________________________________
> Speakup mailing list
> Speakup@braille.uwo.ca
> http://speech.braille.uwo.ca/mailman/listinfo/speakup

-- 
	
				Janina Sajka, Director
				Technology Research and Development
				Governmental Relations Group
				American Foundation for the Blind (AFB)

Email: janina@afb.net		Phone: (202) 408-8175

Re: text to html

[Janina Sajka]

Thanks, Ann. Though I would certainly hope that whatever I may have to
say on any particular subject might be evaluated on its merits, and not
ex cathedra as it were.

On the other hand I will rarely go to the lengths I've gone to on this
topic. 

Ann Parsons writes:
> From: Ann Parsons <akp@eznet.net>
> 
> Hi all,
> 
> I haven't been following this thread, but this message caught my eye.
> 
> >>>>> "Sina" == Sina Bahram <sbahram@nc.rr.com> writes:
> 
>     Sina> Respectfully, I again ask for any evidence that my advice is
>     Sina> contrary to any disabled person's accessing of the text. I
>     Sina> myself am low vision, and use screen readers; however, I
>     Sina> also use my site when I can. And I am telling you as a user
>     Sina> that visually the pre element tag is not inaccessible. It
>     Sina> also doesn't present any problems as does any part of the
>     Sina> entire internet to a mobility impaired individual. Any part
>     Sina> of accessing the internet might present some problems to
>     Sina> such an individual; however, my advice delt with the web
>     Sina> design of a site and I stand by it until corrected by
>     Sina> someone knowledgeable about what their talking about.
> 
> Someone knowledgeable about the subject?  <sardonic grin>  Um, Sina,
> Janina works for the AFB.  Her job is to evaluate technology to see
> how accessible it is for the blind and others with disabilities.  I
> believe that she is involved with the WAI Group, plus folks working on
> DAISY books plus a great deal more which I don't know about.  
> 
> Sina, my friend, you've just tangled with a tigress.  If Janina says a
> given tag in HTML will not work or isn't accessible, then I'd tend to
> prick up my ears and pay attention.  Indeed, if Janina tells you
> anything about HTML, XML, DAISY, or anything else having to do with
> computers and accessibility, well, I'd tend to  pay attention.  I have
> a feeling that she knows what she's talking about. 
> 
> As for web site accessibility for PWD and what is and isn't
> accessible, I can't say, except that there are sites that are not
> accessible for the mobility impaired because there is a time element
> involved in doing some of the interactive things on some web sites.
> There are lots of factors involved in accessibility. 
> 
> If you persist in tangling with a tigress, more power to ya, but---
> 
> Ann P.
> 
> 
> -- 
> 			Ann K. Parsons  
> email:  akp@eznet.net 			ICQ Number:  33006854
> WEB SITE:  http://home.eznet.net/~akp
> "All that is gold does not glitter.  Not all those who wander are lost."  JRRT
> 
> 
> _______________________________________________
> Speakup mailing list
> Speakup@braille.uwo.ca
> http://speech.braille.uwo.ca/mailman/listinfo/speakup

-- 
	
				Janina Sajka, Director
				Technology Research and Development
				Governmental Relations Group
				American Foundation for the Blind (AFB)

Email: janina@afb.net		Phone: (202) 408-8175

RE: text to html

[Luke Davis]

Ann, in brief, I agree with you.  However, she has not given an opinion or
advice.  She has stated what seems to be an infalable, inviolable, fact,
which she seems to be saying that we are intentionally ignoring.  She has
not backed this up, by explaining exactly why what we are doing is wrong,
just that it is, and the very beginnings of an explanation, without the
substance.  She said she would do this latter when things slow down a
little, which I have no doubt she will.  Thus, we're just treading water,
waiting for an answer, and responding to the auxiliary topics that are
coming up on the thread.

I plan to post a more in depth response a bit later today, if someone else
hasn't already said what I want to say.  It doesn't look like Kirc's going
to release or return my other post, so I'm going to have to try to
remember a little of it, although I doubt I will get most of it.

Luke


On Wed, 27 Aug 2003, Ann Parsons wrote:

> Hi all,
>
> <smile>  Luke, you always seem to catch me up with what I say.  That's
> good.  I need somebody to make me think every once in a while.
>
> I think I've made my position clear in subsequent msgs, but I will say
> that I meant that because of her experience, one should pay attention
> to Janina.  I didn't say one had to agree, but I do think she has the
> experience to back up her statements.  Now, that doesn't mean at all,
> that one shouldn't question her opinions and ask for clarification, as
> Sina seems to be doing here.  I just thought that some acknowledgment
> of the information behind the opinion ought to be given.
>
> No, Luke, just because someone has experience doesn't necessarily mean
> their advice is good, but it does mean that the advice should be
> evaluated and tested.
>
> Ann P.
>
>

RE: text to html

[Sina Bahram]

Maybe not to give bad advice or criticise without just cause???

Take care,
Sina

-----Original Message-----
From: speakup-admin@braille.uwo.ca [mailto:speakup-admin@braille.uwo.ca]
On Behalf Of Pawel Loba
Sent: Wednesday, August 27, 2003 2:21 AM
To: speakup@braille.uwo.ca
Subject: RE: text to html


Hi: And what are we all going to learn from this kind of comments as 
individuals who came here to learn about speakup and linux?

Later,
Paul.


On Wed, 27 Aug 2003, 
Sina Bahram wrote:

> I'm still chuckling about that. one of Billy boy's more famous quotes 
> eh? And it proves a point very well...no affense to Bill after all he 
> happens to be quite the wealthy billion eyre; however, anyone can be 
> wrong. It's a person who can admit it, or prove that he or she is not 
> incorrect that makes a productive individual.
> 
> Take care,
> Sina
> 
> -----Original Message-----
> From: speakup-admin@braille.uwo.ca 
> [mailto:speakup-admin@braille.uwo.ca]
> On Behalf Of Luke Davis
> Sent: Tuesday, August 26, 2003 11:54 PM
> To: speakup@braille.uwo.ca
> Subject: RE: text to html
> 
> 
> Ann
> 
> You are coming very close to suggesting that, because of her position,

> titles, job descriptions, and knowledge, she should not be questioned.

> Now, you didn't flat out say that, but you are standing on the line, 
> with your "pay attention!" comments.
> 
> By that logic, since Bill Gates obviously knows computers (after all, 
> he wrote DOS, *runs* the largest computer company in the known 
> universe, and used to have a position of sorts with IBM): he probably 
> shouldn't be questioned about his statements regarding computers.  
> After all, who will ever need more than 640K of RAM?
> 
> Luke
> 
> 
> On Tue, 26 Aug 2003, Ann Parsons wrote:
> 
> > Hi all,
> >
> > I haven't been following this thread, but this message caught my 
> > eye.
> >
> > >>>>> "Sina" == Sina Bahram <sbahram@nc.rr.com> writes:
> >
> >     Sina> Respectfully, I again ask for any evidence that my advice
is
> >     Sina> contrary to any disabled person's accessing of the text. I
> >     Sina> myself am low vision, and use screen readers; however, I
> >     Sina> also use my site when I can. And I am telling you as a
user
> >     Sina> that visually the pre element tag is not inaccessible. It
> >     Sina> also doesn't present any problems as does any part of the
> >     Sina> entire internet to a mobility impaired individual. Any
part
> >     Sina> of accessing the internet might present some problems to
> >     Sina> such an individual; however, my advice delt with the web
> >     Sina> design of a site and I stand by it until corrected by
> >     Sina> someone knowledgeable about what their talking about.
> >
> > Someone knowledgeable about the subject?  <sardonic grin>  Um, Sina,
> > Janina works for the AFB.  Her job is to evaluate technology to see 
> > how accessible it is for the blind and others with disabilities.  I 
> > believe that she is involved with the WAI Group, plus folks working
on
> 
> > DAISY books plus a great deal more which I don't know about.
> >
> > Sina, my friend, you've just tangled with a tigress.  If Janina says

> > a
> 
> > given tag in HTML will not work or isn't accessible, then I'd tend 
> > to
> > prick up my ears and pay attention.  Indeed, if Janina tells you 
> > anything about HTML, XML, DAISY, or anything else having to do with 
> > computers and accessibility, well, I'd tend to  pay attention.  I
have
> 
> > a feeling that she knows what she's talking about.
> >
> > As for web site accessibility for PWD and what is and isn't
> > accessible, I can't say, except that there are sites that are not 
> > accessible for the mobility impaired because there is a time element

> > involved in doing some of the interactive things on some web sites. 
> > There are lots of factors involved in accessibility.
> >
> > If you persist in tangling with a tigress, more power to ya, but---
> >
> > Ann P.
> >
> >
> >
> 
> _______________________________________________
> Speakup mailing list
> Speakup@braille.uwo.ca 
> http://speech.braille.uwo.ca/mailman/listinfo/speakup
> 
> 
> 
> _______________________________________________
> Speakup mailing list
> Speakup@braille.uwo.ca 
> http://speech.braille.uwo.ca/mailman/listinfo/speakup
> 


_______________________________________________
Speakup mailing list
Speakup@braille.uwo.ca
http://speech.braille.uwo.ca/mailman/listinfo/speakup

RE: text to html

[Ann Parsons]

Hi all,

<smile>  Luke, you always seem to catch me up with what I say.  That's
good.  I need somebody to make me think every once in a while.  

I think I've made my position clear in subsequent msgs, but I will say
that I meant that because of her experience, one should pay attention
to Janina.  I didn't say one had to agree, but I do think she has the
experience to back up her statements.  Now, that doesn't mean at all,
that one shouldn't question her opinions and ask for clarification, as
Sina seems to be doing here.  I just thought that some acknowledgment
of the information behind the opinion ought to be given.  

No, Luke, just because someone has experience doesn't necessarily mean
their advice is good, but it does mean that the advice should be
evaluated and tested.  

Ann P.

-- 
			Ann K. Parsons  
email:  akp@eznet.net 			ICQ Number:  33006854
WEB SITE:  http://home.eznet.net/~akp
"All that is gold does not glitter.  Not all those who wander are lost."  JRRT

Re: text to html

[Shaun Oliver]

ok, some more I must say on this subject.
I've been up on the reflector and raised this issue there.
a couple of us see it like this.
whilst a permenant solution is always good for meeting required guide
lines etc,
annoying little things like deadlines and the like prevent us from doing
the permenant fix first off.
sometimes a quick and dirty hack or a gerry rig if you will is what's
needed until you can get that permenant fix inplace.
to be fare to you janina, I admire the work you do and thank you for it.
even though I'm in australia, I can learn a great deal from you.
however, you need to remember who you're talking to on here.
we're all on your side here. and while we may not always adopt good
practices for one reason or another, it doesn't pay to post saying no
bloody way you're kidding, and be as well to put not too fine a point on
it be as narrow minded as the people I'm sure you come up against in
your line of work.
this isn't a flame, I consider it constructive critisisim.
we all tend to forget from time to time who we're talking to on this
list and we all tend to flame each other for one stupid thing or
another.
I think the quoteI have at the end of each of my mesages is rather apt
for this post.
let's all remember we're on the same side.
save the attitude for the people that need it.

-- 
Shaun Oliver
"Becareful of the toes u step on today, they maybe connected to the ass you have to kiss tomorrow!"

EMAIL: shaun_oliver@optusnet.com.au
ICQ: 76958435
YAHOO: blindman01_2000
MSN: blindman_2001@hotmail.com
AIM: captain nemo 200
IRC: irc.awesomechat.net:6666
IRCNICK: blindman
CHANNELS: #awesomeradio #mircpopup-magic #linux #help #ourworld #audiofile #mauisun

Re: text to html

[Shaun Oliver]

*SNIP*
After all, who will
ever need more than 640K of RAM?
*SNIP*
Who indeed.
I think mr. gates at the time was undoubtedly missinformed.
now I don't claim to agree with everything janina says, however, I don't
think she's always correct either. come to think of it, we're all guilty
of not being entirely correct when it comes to accessability or the
like.
instead of flaming each other, as 2 posters have been doing throughout
this damned thread,
hows about we see some of the evidence which was so eloquently asked for
in the first place, and not this constant bitching and bickerig about
what tag will work or will not work.
I don't claim to know all there is to know about html because fact is I
don't,
if there's a quick and dirty hack that can be used until a suitable
replacement is put in place, why not for christ sakes.
it's not as if it's going to be there for all time,
agreed, we should strive to adhear to accessability guidlines as best we
can but it is not always doable.

let's just get on with the business of helping instead of flaming.

-- 
Shaun Oliver
"Becareful of the toes u step on today, they maybe connected to the ass you have to kiss tomorrow!"

EMAIL: shaun_oliver@optusnet.com.au
ICQ: 76958435
YAHOO: blindman01_2000
MSN: blindman_2001@hotmail.com
AIM: captain nemo 200
IRC: irc.awesomechat.net:6666
IRCNICK: blindman
CHANNELS: #awesomeradio #mircpopup-magic #linux #help #ourworld #audiofile #mauisun

RE: text to html

[Pawel Loba]

Hi: And what are we all going to learn from this kind of comments as 
individuals who came here to learn about speakup and linux?

Later,
Paul.


On Wed, 27 Aug 2003, 
Sina Bahram wrote:

> I'm still chuckling about that. one of Billy boy's more famous quotes
> eh? And it proves a point very well...no affense to Bill after all he
> happens to be quite the wealthy billion eyre; however, anyone can be
> wrong. It's a person who can admit it, or prove that he or she is not
> incorrect that makes a productive individual.
> 
> Take care,
> Sina
> 
> -----Original Message-----
> From: speakup-admin@braille.uwo.ca [mailto:speakup-admin@braille.uwo.ca]
> On Behalf Of Luke Davis
> Sent: Tuesday, August 26, 2003 11:54 PM
> To: speakup@braille.uwo.ca
> Subject: RE: text to html
> 
> 
> Ann
> 
> You are coming very close to suggesting that, because of her position,
> titles, job descriptions, and knowledge, she should not be questioned.
> Now, you didn't flat out say that, but you are standing on the line,
> with your "pay attention!" comments.
> 
> By that logic, since Bill Gates obviously knows computers (after all, he
> wrote DOS, *runs* the largest computer company in the known universe,
> and used to have a position of sorts with IBM): he probably shouldn't be
> questioned about his statements regarding computers.  After all, who
> will ever need more than 640K of RAM?
> 
> Luke
> 
> 
> On Tue, 26 Aug 2003, Ann Parsons wrote:
> 
> > Hi all,
> >
> > I haven't been following this thread, but this message caught my eye.
> >
> > >>>>> "Sina" == Sina Bahram <sbahram@nc.rr.com> writes:
> >
> >     Sina> Respectfully, I again ask for any evidence that my advice is
> >     Sina> contrary to any disabled person's accessing of the text. I
> >     Sina> myself am low vision, and use screen readers; however, I
> >     Sina> also use my site when I can. And I am telling you as a user
> >     Sina> that visually the pre element tag is not inaccessible. It
> >     Sina> also doesn't present any problems as does any part of the
> >     Sina> entire internet to a mobility impaired individual. Any part
> >     Sina> of accessing the internet might present some problems to
> >     Sina> such an individual; however, my advice delt with the web
> >     Sina> design of a site and I stand by it until corrected by
> >     Sina> someone knowledgeable about what their talking about.
> >
> > Someone knowledgeable about the subject?  <sardonic grin>  Um, Sina, 
> > Janina works for the AFB.  Her job is to evaluate technology to see 
> > how accessible it is for the blind and others with disabilities.  I 
> > believe that she is involved with the WAI Group, plus folks working on
> 
> > DAISY books plus a great deal more which I don't know about.
> >
> > Sina, my friend, you've just tangled with a tigress.  If Janina says a
> 
> > given tag in HTML will not work or isn't accessible, then I'd tend to 
> > prick up my ears and pay attention.  Indeed, if Janina tells you 
> > anything about HTML, XML, DAISY, or anything else having to do with 
> > computers and accessibility, well, I'd tend to  pay attention.  I have
> 
> > a feeling that she knows what she's talking about.
> >
> > As for web site accessibility for PWD and what is and isn't 
> > accessible, I can't say, except that there are sites that are not 
> > accessible for the mobility impaired because there is a time element 
> > involved in doing some of the interactive things on some web sites. 
> > There are lots of factors involved in accessibility.
> >
> > If you persist in tangling with a tigress, more power to ya, but---
> >
> > Ann P.
> >
> >
> >
> 
> _______________________________________________
> Speakup mailing list
> Speakup@braille.uwo.ca
> http://speech.braille.uwo.ca/mailman/listinfo/speakup
> 
> 
> 
> _______________________________________________
> Speakup mailing list
> Speakup@braille.uwo.ca
> http://speech.braille.uwo.ca/mailman/listinfo/speakup
> 

RE: text to html

[Sina Bahram]

I'm still chuckling about that. one of Billy boy's more famous quotes
eh? And it proves a point very well...no affense to Bill after all he
happens to be quite the wealthy billion eyre; however, anyone can be
wrong. It's a person who can admit it, or prove that he or she is not
incorrect that makes a productive individual.

Take care,
Sina

-----Original Message-----
From: speakup-admin@braille.uwo.ca [mailto:speakup-admin@braille.uwo.ca]
On Behalf Of Luke Davis
Sent: Tuesday, August 26, 2003 11:54 PM
To: speakup@braille.uwo.ca
Subject: RE: text to html


Ann

You are coming very close to suggesting that, because of her position,
titles, job descriptions, and knowledge, she should not be questioned.
Now, you didn't flat out say that, but you are standing on the line,
with your "pay attention!" comments.

By that logic, since Bill Gates obviously knows computers (after all, he
wrote DOS, *runs* the largest computer company in the known universe,
and used to have a position of sorts with IBM): he probably shouldn't be
questioned about his statements regarding computers.  After all, who
will ever need more than 640K of RAM?

Luke


On Tue, 26 Aug 2003, Ann Parsons wrote:

> Hi all,
>
> I haven't been following this thread, but this message caught my eye.
>
> >>>>> "Sina" == Sina Bahram <sbahram@nc.rr.com> writes:
>
>     Sina> Respectfully, I again ask for any evidence that my advice is
>     Sina> contrary to any disabled person's accessing of the text. I
>     Sina> myself am low vision, and use screen readers; however, I
>     Sina> also use my site when I can. And I am telling you as a user
>     Sina> that visually the pre element tag is not inaccessible. It
>     Sina> also doesn't present any problems as does any part of the
>     Sina> entire internet to a mobility impaired individual. Any part
>     Sina> of accessing the internet might present some problems to
>     Sina> such an individual; however, my advice delt with the web
>     Sina> design of a site and I stand by it until corrected by
>     Sina> someone knowledgeable about what their talking about.
>
> Someone knowledgeable about the subject?  <sardonic grin>  Um, Sina, 
> Janina works for the AFB.  Her job is to evaluate technology to see 
> how accessible it is for the blind and others with disabilities.  I 
> believe that she is involved with the WAI Group, plus folks working on

> DAISY books plus a great deal more which I don't know about.
>
> Sina, my friend, you've just tangled with a tigress.  If Janina says a

> given tag in HTML will not work or isn't accessible, then I'd tend to 
> prick up my ears and pay attention.  Indeed, if Janina tells you 
> anything about HTML, XML, DAISY, or anything else having to do with 
> computers and accessibility, well, I'd tend to  pay attention.  I have

> a feeling that she knows what she's talking about.
>
> As for web site accessibility for PWD and what is and isn't 
> accessible, I can't say, except that there are sites that are not 
> accessible for the mobility impaired because there is a time element 
> involved in doing some of the interactive things on some web sites. 
> There are lots of factors involved in accessibility.
>
> If you persist in tangling with a tigress, more power to ya, but---
>
> Ann P.
>
>
>

_______________________________________________
Speakup mailing list
Speakup@braille.uwo.ca
http://speech.braille.uwo.ca/mailman/listinfo/speakup

RE: text to html

[Luke Davis]

Ann

You are coming very close to suggesting that, because of her position,
titles, job descriptions, and knowledge, she should not be questioned.
Now, you didn't flat out say that, but you are standing on the line, with
your "pay attention!" comments.

By that logic, since Bill Gates obviously knows computers (after all, he
wrote DOS, *runs* the largest computer company in the known universe, and
used to have a position of sorts with IBM): he probably shouldn't be
questioned about his statements regarding computers.  After all, who will
ever need more than 640K of RAM?

Luke


On Tue, 26 Aug 2003, Ann Parsons wrote:

> Hi all,
>
> I haven't been following this thread, but this message caught my eye.
>
> >>>>> "Sina" == Sina Bahram <sbahram@nc.rr.com> writes:
>
>     Sina> Respectfully, I again ask for any evidence that my advice is
>     Sina> contrary to any disabled person's accessing of the text. I
>     Sina> myself am low vision, and use screen readers; however, I
>     Sina> also use my site when I can. And I am telling you as a user
>     Sina> that visually the pre element tag is not inaccessible. It
>     Sina> also doesn't present any problems as does any part of the
>     Sina> entire internet to a mobility impaired individual. Any part
>     Sina> of accessing the internet might present some problems to
>     Sina> such an individual; however, my advice delt with the web
>     Sina> design of a site and I stand by it until corrected by
>     Sina> someone knowledgeable about what their talking about.
>
> Someone knowledgeable about the subject?  <sardonic grin>  Um, Sina,
> Janina works for the AFB.  Her job is to evaluate technology to see
> how accessible it is for the blind and others with disabilities.  I
> believe that she is involved with the WAI Group, plus folks working on
> DAISY books plus a great deal more which I don't know about.
>
> Sina, my friend, you've just tangled with a tigress.  If Janina says a
> given tag in HTML will not work or isn't accessible, then I'd tend to
> prick up my ears and pay attention.  Indeed, if Janina tells you
> anything about HTML, XML, DAISY, or anything else having to do with
> computers and accessibility, well, I'd tend to  pay attention.  I have
> a feeling that she knows what she's talking about.
>
> As for web site accessibility for PWD and what is and isn't
> accessible, I can't say, except that there are sites that are not
> accessible for the mobility impaired because there is a time element
> involved in doing some of the interactive things on some web sites.
> There are lots of factors involved in accessibility.
>
> If you persist in tangling with a tigress, more power to ya, but---
>
> Ann P.
>
>
>

RE: text to html

[Ann Parsons]

Hi all,

I haven't been following this thread, but this message caught my eye.

>>>>> "Sina" == Sina Bahram <sbahram@nc.rr.com> writes:

    Sina> Respectfully, I again ask for any evidence that my advice is
    Sina> contrary to any disabled person's accessing of the text. I
    Sina> myself am low vision, and use screen readers; however, I
    Sina> also use my site when I can. And I am telling you as a user
    Sina> that visually the pre element tag is not inaccessible. It
    Sina> also doesn't present any problems as does any part of the
    Sina> entire internet to a mobility impaired individual. Any part
    Sina> of accessing the internet might present some problems to
    Sina> such an individual; however, my advice delt with the web
    Sina> design of a site and I stand by it until corrected by
    Sina> someone knowledgeable about what their talking about.

Someone knowledgeable about the subject?  <sardonic grin>  Um, Sina,
Janina works for the AFB.  Her job is to evaluate technology to see
how accessible it is for the blind and others with disabilities.  I
believe that she is involved with the WAI Group, plus folks working on
DAISY books plus a great deal more which I don't know about.  

Sina, my friend, you've just tangled with a tigress.  If Janina says a
given tag in HTML will not work or isn't accessible, then I'd tend to
prick up my ears and pay attention.  Indeed, if Janina tells you
anything about HTML, XML, DAISY, or anything else having to do with
computers and accessibility, well, I'd tend to  pay attention.  I have
a feeling that she knows what she's talking about. 

As for web site accessibility for PWD and what is and isn't
accessible, I can't say, except that there are sites that are not
accessible for the mobility impaired because there is a time element
involved in doing some of the interactive things on some web sites.
There are lots of factors involved in accessibility. 

If you persist in tangling with a tigress, more power to ya, but---

Ann P.


-- 
			Ann K. Parsons  
email:  akp@eznet.net 			ICQ Number:  33006854
WEB SITE:  http://home.eznet.net/~akp
"All that is gold does not glitter.  Not all those who wander are lost."  JRRT

RE: text to html

[Sina Bahram]

Respectfully, I again ask for any evidence that my advice is contrary to
any disabled person's accessing of the text. I myself am low vision, and
use screen readers; however, I also use my site when I can. And I am
telling you as a user that visually the pre element tag is not
inaccessible. It also doesn't present any problems as does any part of
the entire internet to a mobility impaired individual. Any part of
accessing the internet might present some problems to such an
individual; however, my advice delt with the web design of a site and I
stand by it until corrected by someone knowledgable about what their
talking about, or by someone who can actually provide evidence and proof
as you have repeatedly failed to do. You might be repeating yourself,
and I am truly sory to hear that, because I have to read your messages
as well and be in wonder that someone can be so misinformed and so
closed minded about such an issue. I also caution that repeating one's
self does not indicate correctness, actually more so than not it
indicates error.

Luke I look forward to your reply as well. About the byte limitation,
just start erasing all the bottom messages other than yours and maybe
the message right under yours. That way you'll have the necessary bite
size to pass the server.

Take care,
Sina

-----Original Message-----
From: speakup-admin@braille.uwo.ca [mailto:speakup-admin@braille.uwo.ca]
On Behalf Of Janina Sajka
Sent: Tuesday, August 26, 2003 10:40 AM
To: speakup@braille.uwo.ca
Subject: Re: text to html


It is self-centered to say that some certain kind of html markup is
accessible because it can be read by a screen reader. Many people make
this kind of mistake. The self-centerdness here is the assumption that
accessibility is just about blind people who use screen readers. It's
not. It isn't even just just about blind people. People who live with
low vision, for example, have very different needs than screen reader
users. So, also do people with mobility disabilities. The list goes on.

I do believe I pointed this out in my message. I do feel I'm repeating
myself here.

Re: text to html

[Guy Abandon.]

Yes, thank you so much, I read about this a bit back and it's really
got me going.  I enjoyed programming as a hobby under TP and have a
lot of code to play with, including the tool we were first on
about....    text to html with bells and whistles.

GA!
----- Original Message -----
From: "Alex Snow" <alex_snow@gmx.net>
To: <speakup@braille.uwo.ca>
Sent: Tuesday, August 26, 2003 12:23 AM
Subject: Re: text to html


There's a pascal compiler for linux. It's called free pascal and
installs
really easily and I think is pretty much turbo pascal compatible but
with
extensions. It's at www.freepascal.org.
----- Original Message -----
From: "Guy Abandon." <text.tools@virgin.net>
To: <speakup@braille.uwo.ca>
Sent: Monday, August 25, 2003 3:44 PM
Subject: Re: text to html


> The tool I did would enforce the <br>  markers or <p> and find
obvious
> urls and make active links out of them and all manner of things if
you
> scribbled in a simple text editor and want it to form the basis of a
> quick web page.
>
> Others wrote similar utilities under DOS too, in the early days of
the
> web of course and they didn't get developed very far.  As you more
or
> less stated, there's not far you can take something like that.  But
> the one I did was useful to me. I've still got a set of web pages
that
> were ran off out of a batch file using said txt2htm utility.
>
> Now if I thought there was a Pascal compiler for Linux....    I
admit
> to preferring the Pascal language to C!
>
> GA!
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> Speakup mailing list
> Speakup@braille.uwo.ca
> http://speech.braille.uwo.ca/mailman/listinfo/speakup
>


_______________________________________________
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Speakup@braille.uwo.ca
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Re: text to html

[Guy Abandon.]

Many thanks for this,  I'll be back in business in no time as I did
most of mine in said Turbo-Pascal.

GA!

Smiling some more.

Re: text to html

[Janina Sajka]

OK, Luke. I can and will do as you ask. As I'm oin a daylong meeting
today, and have half a day of teleconferences tomorrow, I will need some
time.

It seems that my response will be a short dissertation on the
accessibility issues that attend on the <pre> element. I was responding
to that in your email, and also in Sina's. I believe the general
statement came from the general question about, and desire for a text to
html converter. I think I already responded to that in an email last
night.

So, coming soon, an email about <pre>.

Luke Davis writes:
> From: Luke Davis <ldavis@shellworld.net>
> 
> Okay.  You have just tossed about some rather general statements, telling
> three of us that we are parts of the problem, impeding progress, and so
> on.
> In our new spirit of cooperation and harmony, I'm going to ask you to get
> it to gether and explain what exactly we have said, that makes us such
> accessibility killers, before I go and tell you what I think of
> generalized, rhetorical, statements.
> 
> So, please, elaborate.
> 
> Luke
> 
> On Mon, 25 Aug 2003, Janina Sajka wrote:
> 
> > So, Luke, you're admitting that you're part of the problem on the web,
> > and not part of the solution?
> >
> >
> > Luke Davis writes:
> > > From: Luke Davis <ldavis@shellworld.net>
> > >
> > > I would certainly like a text2html converter.  In one particular case of
> > > many...
> > >
> > > Every couple months, I get an entire store catalog in text form, which I
> > > am supposed to place on the web site of said store.  As it stands, I
> > > mostly just incapsulate the entire thing in pre elements.  If I were to
> > > mark it up by hand, it would take quite some time.  All it really needs,
> > > are paragraphs and line breaks.  Stylesheets can handle much of the rest.
> > >
> > > One of these days, I'll get sick enough of it to write an app for the
> > > purpose.
> > >
> > > Luke
> > >
> > >
> > > On Mon, 25 Aug 2003, Guy Abandon. wrote:
> > >
> > > > The tool I did would enforce the <br>  markers or <p> and find obvious
> > > > urls and make active links out of them and all manner of things if you
> > > > scribbled in a simple text editor and want it to form the basis of a
> > > > quick web page.
> > > >
> > > > Others wrote similar utilities under DOS too, in the early days of the
> > > > web of course and they didn't get developed very far.  As you more or
> > > > less stated, there's not far you can take something like that.  But
> > > > the one I did was useful to me. I've still got a set of web pages that
> > > > were ran off out of a batch file using said txt2htm utility.
> > > >
> > > > Now if I thought there was a Pascal compiler for Linux....    I admit
> > > > to preferring the Pascal language to C!
> > > >
> > > > GA!
> > > >
> > > >
> > > > _______________________________________________
> > > > Speakup mailing list
> > > > Speakup@braille.uwo.ca
> > > > http://speech.braille.uwo.ca/mailman/listinfo/speakup
> > > >
> > >
> > > _______________________________________________
> > > Speakup mailing list
> > > Speakup@braille.uwo.ca
> > > http://speech.braille.uwo.ca/mailman/listinfo/speakup
> >
> >
> 
> _______________________________________________
> Speakup mailing list
> Speakup@braille.uwo.ca
> http://speech.braille.uwo.ca/mailman/listinfo/speakup

-- 
	
				Janina Sajka, Director
				Technology Research and Development
				Governmental Relations Group
				American Foundation for the Blind (AFB)

Email: janina@afb.net		Phone: (202) 408-8175

Re: text to html

[Buddy Brannan]

text2html works great...I use it myself. 
-- 
Buddy Brannan, KB5ELV/3    | But I will lay my burden 
Email: davros@ycardz.com   | in the cradle of your grace,
ICQ: 36621210              | And the shining beaches of your love,
http://www.ycardz.com      | and the sea of your embrace.--Dave Carter

Re: text to html

[Janina Sajka]

It is self-centered to say that some certain kind of html markup is
accessible because it can be read by a screen reader. Many people make
this kind of mistake. The self-centerdness here is the assumption that
accessibility is just about blind people who use screen readers. It's
not. It isn't even just just about blind people. People who live with
low vision, for example, have very different needs than screen reader
users. So, also do people with mobility disabilities. The list goes on.

I do believe I pointed this out in my message. I do feel I'm repeating
myself here.

Sina Bahram writes:
> From: "Sina Bahram" <sbahram@nc.rr.com>
> 
> Hello again. You ask me not to be self centered, and not more than a
> breath before that you state that you are not making a personal attack.
> When I attempted to offer help, I was not being or trying to be self
> centered or in any other way inconsiderate of any other disabilities. I
> would of hoped that being disabled yourself, or dealing with people who
> are disabled...you would understand that no one in that position would
> ignore a disability. At least, I know I do not do so on purpose. You
> also write the following
> 
> "...may I say that I do not regard it appropriate to recommend any old
> approach neither on this list nor anywhere else..."
> 
> Along with this
> 
> "...By the way, the <pre> tag is not outdated. It has a purpose and
> should be used for that purpose and not suborned..."
> 
> 
> For someone who recommends everybody to a document, the w3c, I would
> urge you to consider your own writings more carefully and in short make
> up your mind. However, I would be more than happy to welcome any
> discussion about any disabilities that I am discriminating against by
> recommending the use of the PRE tag, I would ask you to be precise and
> to have evidence to back up your emotionally charged statements and
> proclamations.
> 
> 
> You also state in your email
> 
> "...I would ask you, as I ask myself and all others, to apply a little
> judgement to the advice offered here..."
> 
> Which contradicts the following from your previous emails
> 
> "...So, Luke, you're admitting that you're part of the problem on the
> web, and not part of the solution?" Which sounds judgemental to me.
> 
> 
> "Not very good advice, Sina.
> 
> let's not go around inventing this stuff out of ignorance..." Which
> sounds insulting to me.
> 
> And in reference to a question you respond with
> "...It rather raises the serious question of whether you mean to walk
> the walk, or just talk the talk..." Which sounds confrontational and
> distinctively not helpful.
> 
> 
> 
> I usually do not disagree with people on lists unless if it is over
> technical points, and that mostly on programming lists where such
> debates are welcome; however, I believe your apparently emotional
> approach to this problem and your brunt attitude towards someone who
> asked a simple question and towards another who attempted to answer that
> question are simply uncalled for. I ask to be corrected, so I leave it
> up to you to correct me. I am considering hearing impaired, who can see
> the monitar, or both hearing and visual, in which case I would recommend
> tactyl access, and I have heard no trouble with a braille display and a
> pre element tag. I can think of physical disabilities that manifest
> themselves in mobility related issues; however, their vision seems to be
> in tact in my examples and so again I state, I can't find a single
> disability that the PRE tag discriminates against.
> 
> Please provide evidence for your claims so that I may be corrected, and
> if I am corrected then I will thank you for teaching me something,
> because as I stated before I am hear to learn; however, I am unclear as
> to what your intentions are from the animosity in your emails.
> 
> Have a wonderful day or evening depending on your time zone.
> 
> Also to alex, I am sorry that my response to your question has caused
> such turmoil, I would be glad to discuss with you on or offlist some
> options you would have that do not include the PRE tag and that would
> entail a permanent solution.
> 
> Take care,
> Sina
> 
> 
> 
> _______________________________________________
> Speakup mailing list
> Speakup@braille.uwo.ca
> http://speech.braille.uwo.ca/mailman/listinfo/speakup

-- 
	
				Janina Sajka, Director
				Technology Research and Development
				Governmental Relations Group
				American Foundation for the Blind (AFB)

Email: janina@afb.net		Phone: (202) 408-8175

RE: text to html

[Luke Davis]

For the record: I have responded to the comments made.  However, this
lists rather low byte limit has hit me, and my message is drifting in
pergatory right now.  I have written to Kirc, because I'm not rewriting
it, and I do not have a copy to split.  So hopefully it will appear, while
it is still of some contributive value.

Luke

RE: text to html

[Sina Bahram]

Hello again. You ask me not to be self centered, and not more than a
breath before that you state that you are not making a personal attack.
When I attempted to offer help, I was not being or trying to be self
centered or in any other way inconsiderate of any other disabilities. I
would of hoped that being disabled yourself, or dealing with people who
are disabled...you would understand that no one in that position would
ignore a disability. At least, I know I do not do so on purpose. You
also write the following

"...may I say that I do not regard it appropriate to recommend any old
approach neither on this list nor anywhere else..."

Along with this

"...By the way, the <pre> tag is not outdated. It has a purpose and
should be used for that purpose and not suborned..."


For someone who recommends everybody to a document, the w3c, I would
urge you to consider your own writings more carefully and in short make
up your mind. However, I would be more than happy to welcome any
discussion about any disabilities that I am discriminating against by
recommending the use of the PRE tag, I would ask you to be precise and
to have evidence to back up your emotionally charged statements and
proclamations.


You also state in your email

"...I would ask you, as I ask myself and all others, to apply a little
judgement to the advice offered here..."

Which contradicts the following from your previous emails

"...So, Luke, you're admitting that you're part of the problem on the
web, and not part of the solution?" Which sounds judgemental to me.


"Not very good advice, Sina.

let's not go around inventing this stuff out of ignorance..." Which
sounds insulting to me.

And in reference to a question you respond with
"...It rather raises the serious question of whether you mean to walk
the walk, or just talk the talk..." Which sounds confrontational and
distinctively not helpful.



I usually do not disagree with people on lists unless if it is over
technical points, and that mostly on programming lists where such
debates are welcome; however, I believe your apparently emotional
approach to this problem and your brunt attitude towards someone who
asked a simple question and towards another who attempted to answer that
question are simply uncalled for. I ask to be corrected, so I leave it
up to you to correct me. I am considering hearing impaired, who can see
the monitar, or both hearing and visual, in which case I would recommend
tactyl access, and I have heard no trouble with a braille display and a
pre element tag. I can think of physical disabilities that manifest
themselves in mobility related issues; however, their vision seems to be
in tact in my examples and so again I state, I can't find a single
disability that the PRE tag discriminates against.

Please provide evidence for your claims so that I may be corrected, and
if I am corrected then I will thank you for teaching me something,
because as I stated before I am hear to learn; however, I am unclear as
to what your intentions are from the animosity in your emails.

Have a wonderful day or evening depending on your time zone.

Also to alex, I am sorry that my response to your question has caused
such turmoil, I would be glad to discuss with you on or offlist some
options you would have that do not include the PRE tag and that would
entail a permanent solution.

Take care,
Sina

Re: text to html

[Luke Davis]

Okay.  You have just tossed about some rather general statements, telling
three of us that we are parts of the problem, impeding progress, and so
on.
In our new spirit of cooperation and harmony, I'm going to ask you to get
it to gether and explain what exactly we have said, that makes us such
accessibility killers, before I go and tell you what I think of
generalized, rhetorical, statements.

So, please, elaborate.

Luke

On Mon, 25 Aug 2003, Janina Sajka wrote:

> So, Luke, you're admitting that you're part of the problem on the web,
> and not part of the solution?
>
>
> Luke Davis writes:
> > From: Luke Davis <ldavis@shellworld.net>
> >
> > I would certainly like a text2html converter.  In one particular case of
> > many...
> >
> > Every couple months, I get an entire store catalog in text form, which I
> > am supposed to place on the web site of said store.  As it stands, I
> > mostly just incapsulate the entire thing in pre elements.  If I were to
> > mark it up by hand, it would take quite some time.  All it really needs,
> > are paragraphs and line breaks.  Stylesheets can handle much of the rest.
> >
> > One of these days, I'll get sick enough of it to write an app for the
> > purpose.
> >
> > Luke
> >
> >
> > On Mon, 25 Aug 2003, Guy Abandon. wrote:
> >
> > > The tool I did would enforce the <br>  markers or <p> and find obvious
> > > urls and make active links out of them and all manner of things if you
> > > scribbled in a simple text editor and want it to form the basis of a
> > > quick web page.
> > >
> > > Others wrote similar utilities under DOS too, in the early days of the
> > > web of course and they didn't get developed very far.  As you more or
> > > less stated, there's not far you can take something like that.  But
> > > the one I did was useful to me. I've still got a set of web pages that
> > > were ran off out of a batch file using said txt2htm utility.
> > >
> > > Now if I thought there was a Pascal compiler for Linux....    I admit
> > > to preferring the Pascal language to C!
> > >
> > > GA!
> > >
> > >
> > > _______________________________________________
> > > Speakup mailing list
> > > Speakup@braille.uwo.ca
> > > http://speech.braille.uwo.ca/mailman/listinfo/speakup
> > >
> >
> > _______________________________________________
> > Speakup mailing list
> > Speakup@braille.uwo.ca
> > http://speech.braille.uwo.ca/mailman/listinfo/speakup
>
>

Re: text to html

[Janina Sajka]

Alex Snow writes:
> 
> I don't see the accessibility issue with converting text to html. could
> someone please enlighten me?

Well, having raised the spectre, I'll try.

When I read "text," I believe you mean plain ASCII. If you actually mean
something else, well then I guess it isn't really text anymore than a
web page is text.

So, plain text is lacking in any semantic or presentational markup. All
you have is the alpha-numeric character set, capital and lower case
letters, numerals, and punctuation marks. Any presentation layout is
achieved with tabs, spaces, and carriage return/line feeds.

HTML, though certainly lacking the level of semantic and structural
tagging available in its progenitor, SGML, is nevertheless significantly
richer. It defines elements for structural and presentational constructs
that go well beyond what is possible in plain ASCII.

So, the problem is simply this: How do you ask a machine to put
meaningful markup into a document which has none? Ultimately, you can
only hack at it. If the content you will tag is nothing but text in
paragraphs, as in a novel, you can actually do pretty well. And, if
you're always marking up the same kind of content, you can write script
that will do a decent job.

But, you can't expect a generic script to access any and all kinds of
plain text files and do a decent job. Not because it's theoretically
impossible, but because it isn't meaningful to take this approach for
large amounts of data. It's far smarter to transform one kind of markup
into another. As long as the source is richer than html, properly marked
in the first instance, and reliably
consistant, the output can be excellent. 

And why does proper markup matter in the first instance? Well there are
several reasons, not the least being accessibility for people with a
wide range of disabilities. For this part of the story, I will simply
refer you to the W3C.

> 
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: "Janina Sajka" <janina@rednote.net>
> To: <speakup@braille.uwo.ca>
> Sent: Monday, August 25, 2003 6:35 PM
> Subject: Re: text to html
> 
> 
> > Alex,
> >
> > This just isn't right.
> >
> > Do you realize what kind of accessibility barriers you're throwing up
> > for people with this kind of approach? It rather raises the serious
> > question of whether you mean to walk the walk, or just talk the talk.
> >
> > Yes, Word puts crap into html under the Save As option. But why is that
> > your only other option?
> >
> > If you have to use Word, there's software that will do better.
> >
> >
> > Alex Snow writes:
> > > From: "Alex Snow" <alex_snow@gmx.net>
> > >
> > > I was just looking for a tool that'll add stuff like <br> tags and
> stuff. I
> > > needed it for converting textfiles into html that I could use on
> > > webpages...I used to use word for that but It inserts a lot of useless
> crap
> > > and the files are quite large.
> > > ----- Original Message -----
> >
> > --
> >
> > Janina Sajka, Director
> > Technology Research and Development
> > Governmental Relations Group
> > American Foundation for the Blind (AFB)
> >
> > Email: janina@afb.net Phone: (202) 408-8175
> >
> > _______________________________________________
> > Speakup mailing list
> > Speakup@braille.uwo.ca
> > http://speech.braille.uwo.ca/mailman/listinfo/speakup
> >
> 
> 
> _______________________________________________
> Speakup mailing list
> Speakup@braille.uwo.ca
> http://speech.braille.uwo.ca/mailman/listinfo/speakup

-- 
	
				Janina Sajka, Director
				Technology Research and Development
				Governmental Relations Group
				American Foundation for the Blind (AFB)

Email: janina@afb.net		Phone: (202) 408-8175

Re: text to html

[Alex Snow]

Yeah that would work.  I've never experimented with the <pre> tag...
----- Original Message ----- 
From: "Sina Bahram" <sbahram@nc.rr.com>
To: <speakup@braille.uwo.ca>
Sent: Monday, August 25, 2003 5:34 PM
Subject: RE: text to html


> Well what you can do is use Microsoft word, and then clean up the html
> with macromedia dreamweaver. Also you could make them kinda dirty html
> files but try this.
> 
> 
> Insert this in the top of your text file.
> 
> <html>
> <head>
> <title>whatever title you want</title>
> </head>
> <body>
> <pre>
> 
> And now enter this in the bottom of your text file
> 
> </pre>
> </body>
> </html>
> 
> Hope this helps,
> Sina
> 
> -----Original Message-----
> From: speakup-admin@braille.uwo.ca [mailto:speakup-admin@braille.uwo.ca]
> On Behalf Of Alex Snow
> Sent: Monday, August 25, 2003 7:27 PM
> To: speakup@braille.uwo.ca
> Subject: Re: text to html
> 
> 
> I was just looking for a tool that'll add stuff like <br> tags and
> stuff. I needed it for converting textfiles into html that I could use
> on webpages...I used to use word for that but It inserts a lot of
> useless crap and the files are quite large.
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: "Janina Sajka" <janina@rednote.net>
> To: <speakup@braille.uwo.ca>
> Sent: Monday, August 25, 2003 12:57 PM
> Subject: Re: text to html
> 
> 
> > You're kidding, right?
> >
> > I mean, what good thing do you expect from a program like this?
> >
> > How are you supposed to get automatic markup out of flat text with no 
> > markup?
> >
> > Certainly, you can't expect meaningful structural markup?
> >
> >
> > Alex Snow writes:
> > > From: "Alex Snow" <alex_snow@gmx.net>
> > >
> > >    Hi all.
> > >    Does anyone know of a program for linux that converts text files 
> > > to
> html?
> > >
> >
> > --
> >
> > Janina Sajka, Director
> > Technology Research and Development
> > Governmental Relations Group
> > American Foundation for the Blind (AFB)
> >
> > Email: janina@afb.net Phone: (202) 408-8175
> >
> > _______________________________________________
> > Speakup mailing list
> > Speakup@braille.uwo.ca 
> > http://speech.braille.uwo.ca/mailman/listinfo/speakup
> >
> 
> 
> _______________________________________________
> Speakup mailing list
> Speakup@braille.uwo.ca
> http://speech.braille.uwo.ca/mailman/listinfo/speakup
> 
> 
> 
> _______________________________________________
> Speakup mailing list
> Speakup@braille.uwo.ca
> http://speech.braille.uwo.ca/mailman/listinfo/speakup
> 

Re: text to html

[Alex Snow]

I don't see the accessibility issue with converting text to html. could
someone please enlighten me?

----- Original Message -----
From: "Janina Sajka" <janina@rednote.net>
To: <speakup@braille.uwo.ca>
Sent: Monday, August 25, 2003 6:35 PM
Subject: Re: text to html


> Alex,
>
> This just isn't right.
>
> Do you realize what kind of accessibility barriers you're throwing up
> for people with this kind of approach? It rather raises the serious
> question of whether you mean to walk the walk, or just talk the talk.
>
> Yes, Word puts crap into html under the Save As option. But why is that
> your only other option?
>
> If you have to use Word, there's software that will do better.
>
>
> Alex Snow writes:
> > From: "Alex Snow" <alex_snow@gmx.net>
> >
> > I was just looking for a tool that'll add stuff like <br> tags and
stuff. I
> > needed it for converting textfiles into html that I could use on
> > webpages...I used to use word for that but It inserts a lot of useless
crap
> > and the files are quite large.
> > ----- Original Message -----
>
> --
>
> Janina Sajka, Director
> Technology Research and Development
> Governmental Relations Group
> American Foundation for the Blind (AFB)
>
> Email: janina@afb.net Phone: (202) 408-8175
>
> _______________________________________________
> Speakup mailing list
> Speakup@braille.uwo.ca
> http://speech.braille.uwo.ca/mailman/listinfo/speakup
>

Re: text to html

[Janina Sajka]

First and foremost, I am not attacking you personally, though I am most
certainly responding to what I read in your posts on this subject.

For example, on this latest post ...

The fact that you can read something with JAWS or whatever screen reader
proves precious little about the accessibility of the web page. Or, do
you think accessibility is only for blind people using screen readers? I
have news for you. There are other people with disabilities other than
visual ones who are also comprehended in the WAI guidelines. So, please,
let's not add self-centerdness to the lists of sins to untangle in this
thread.

As to the earlier issue, the matter of what tagging might or might not
be appropriate, may I say that I do not regard it appropriate to
recommend any old approach neither on this list nor anywhere else. This
is not a contest to see who can think up more answers. I would ask you,
as I ask myself and all others, to apply a little judgement to the
advice offered here. All possible answers are not equal. Some are better
than others. And there are legitimate reasons why some are better than
others.

So, in my mind I come back to the need for accessible markup on web
pages. As blind (and otherwise disabled) users of the web, markup
determines whether or not we participate. I cannot imagine a more
fundamental principle of judgement than to insist that we practice what
we preach about accessibility.

By the way, the <pre> tag is not outdated. It has a purpose and should
be used for that purpose and not suborned.


Sina Bahram writes:
> From: "Sina Bahram" <sbahram@nc.rr.com>
> 
> Woh now. I never said anything about my advice being absolute or for
> that matter even correct. In the nature of this list, a friendly forum
> of knowledgable contribution, I attempted to offer a possible solution
> among many. I never once stated mine was right, nor did I state that my
> advice should be taken as anything but a suggestion. I also warned
> against the bad practice of the pre elements; however, I offered one
> possible solution to the problem. I will not get into an argument with
> someone I have every other reason to respect over an outdated html tag
> that I care little about; however, I would state that the accessibility
> issues with using this command are not as grave as you may think as I
> can prove with Jaws or IBM Home Page Reader each of which support and
> read text in pre element tags just fine. I also thought that people were
> encouraged to contribute advice so that we all may learn, apparently I
> was wrong. The point of this list seems to be to offer advice so that it
> may be rudely and negligently pushed aside with little regard for the
> intentions behind that advice. I apologize if you do not agree with my
> advice; however, I believe you could of phrased your email in a more
> respectful manner.
> 
> Also as to ignorance, I resent that accusation, simply because I always
> stand to be corrected, as anyone should; however, the advice I gave has
> worked with a number of different accessibility options. And as I
> recommended it for a quick dirty fix, for example for a few days until
> propper html may be written. I do not see the harm in the advice or the
> necessity for your brrunt and uncalled for manner.
> 
> Again I apologize if I have afended or said anything inappropriate, but
> I don't believe I or Luke, along with Alex deserves such treatment.
> 
> Take care,
> Sina
> 
> -----Original Message-----
> From: speakup-admin@braille.uwo.ca [mailto:speakup-admin@braille.uwo.ca]
> On Behalf Of Janina Sajka
> Sent: Monday, August 25, 2003 7:38 PM
> To: speakup@braille.uwo.ca
> Subject: Re: text to html
> 
> 
> Not very good advice, Sina.
> 
> let's not go around inventing this stuff out of ignorance. There are
> some pretty clear guidelines about what constitutes accessible HTML at
> http://www.w3.org/wai. I suggest that meeting those guidelines needs to
> be a priority.
> 
> Let me make it real clear. We talk about accessibility here on this
> list. We must give as we expect to receive.
> 
> 
> 
> _______________________________________________
> Speakup mailing list
> Speakup@braille.uwo.ca
> http://speech.braille.uwo.ca/mailman/listinfo/speakup

-- 
	
				Janina Sajka, Director
				Technology Research and Development
				Governmental Relations Group
				American Foundation for the Blind (AFB)

Email: janina@afb.net		Phone: (202) 408-8175

RE: text to html

[Sina Bahram]

Woh now. I never said anything about my advice being absolute or for
that matter even correct. In the nature of this list, a friendly forum
of knowledgable contribution, I attempted to offer a possible solution
among many. I never once stated mine was right, nor did I state that my
advice should be taken as anything but a suggestion. I also warned
against the bad practice of the pre elements; however, I offered one
possible solution to the problem. I will not get into an argument with
someone I have every other reason to respect over an outdated html tag
that I care little about; however, I would state that the accessibility
issues with using this command are not as grave as you may think as I
can prove with Jaws or IBM Home Page Reader each of which support and
read text in pre element tags just fine. I also thought that people were
encouraged to contribute advice so that we all may learn, apparently I
was wrong. The point of this list seems to be to offer advice so that it
may be rudely and negligently pushed aside with little regard for the
intentions behind that advice. I apologize if you do not agree with my
advice; however, I believe you could of phrased your email in a more
respectful manner.

Also as to ignorance, I resent that accusation, simply because I always
stand to be corrected, as anyone should; however, the advice I gave has
worked with a number of different accessibility options. And as I
recommended it for a quick dirty fix, for example for a few days until
propper html may be written. I do not see the harm in the advice or the
necessity for your brrunt and uncalled for manner.

Again I apologize if I have afended or said anything inappropriate, but
I don't believe I or Luke, along with Alex deserves such treatment.

Take care,
Sina

-----Original Message-----
From: speakup-admin@braille.uwo.ca [mailto:speakup-admin@braille.uwo.ca]
On Behalf Of Janina Sajka
Sent: Monday, August 25, 2003 7:38 PM
To: speakup@braille.uwo.ca
Subject: Re: text to html


Not very good advice, Sina.

let's not go around inventing this stuff out of ignorance. There are
some pretty clear guidelines about what constitutes accessible HTML at
http://www.w3.org/wai. I suggest that meeting those guidelines needs to
be a priority.

Let me make it real clear. We talk about accessibility here on this
list. We must give as we expect to receive.

Re: text to html

[Chuck Hallenbeck]

On Mon, 25 Aug 2003, Guy Abandon. wrote:

> Now if I thought there was a Pascal compiler for Linux....    I admit
> to preferring the Pascal language to C!


I believe there is a pascal front end to the standard gcc
compiler which lets you write pascal programs that compile and
execute in Linux.

Pascal is to C as Cobol is to Fortran.

You are more than half way to C if you know your way around
Pascal.

Chuck


-- 
The Moon is Waning Crescent (4% of Full)
 Get my public key from website, http://www.mhonline.net/~chuckh

Re: text to html

[Janina Sajka]

So, Luke, you're admitting that you're part of the problem on the web,
and not part of the solution?


Luke Davis writes:
> From: Luke Davis <ldavis@shellworld.net>
> 
> I would certainly like a text2html converter.  In one particular case of
> many...
> 
> Every couple months, I get an entire store catalog in text form, which I
> am supposed to place on the web site of said store.  As it stands, I
> mostly just incapsulate the entire thing in pre elements.  If I were to
> mark it up by hand, it would take quite some time.  All it really needs,
> are paragraphs and line breaks.  Stylesheets can handle much of the rest.
> 
> One of these days, I'll get sick enough of it to write an app for the
> purpose.
> 
> Luke
> 
> 
> On Mon, 25 Aug 2003, Guy Abandon. wrote:
> 
> > The tool I did would enforce the <br>  markers or <p> and find obvious
> > urls and make active links out of them and all manner of things if you
> > scribbled in a simple text editor and want it to form the basis of a
> > quick web page.
> >
> > Others wrote similar utilities under DOS too, in the early days of the
> > web of course and they didn't get developed very far.  As you more or
> > less stated, there's not far you can take something like that.  But
> > the one I did was useful to me. I've still got a set of web pages that
> > were ran off out of a batch file using said txt2htm utility.
> >
> > Now if I thought there was a Pascal compiler for Linux....    I admit
> > to preferring the Pascal language to C!
> >
> > GA!
> >
> >
> > _______________________________________________
> > Speakup mailing list
> > Speakup@braille.uwo.ca
> > http://speech.braille.uwo.ca/mailman/listinfo/speakup
> >
> 
> _______________________________________________
> Speakup mailing list
> Speakup@braille.uwo.ca
> http://speech.braille.uwo.ca/mailman/listinfo/speakup

-- 
	
				Janina Sajka, Director
				Technology Research and Development
				Governmental Relations Group
				American Foundation for the Blind (AFB)

Email: janina@afb.net		Phone: (202) 408-8175

Re: text to html

[Janina Sajka]

Not very good advice, Sina.

let's not go around inventing this stuff out of ignorance. There are
some pretty clear guidelines about what constitutes accessible HTML at
http://www.w3.org/wai. I suggest that meeting those guidelines needs to
be a priority.

Let me make it real clear. We talk about accessibility here on this
list. We must give as we expect to receive.

Luke Davis writes:
> From: Luke Davis <ldavis@shellworld.net>
> 
> That usually does very bad things to fonts, etc., I am told by sighties.
> 
> 
> On Mon, 25 Aug 2003, Sina Bahram wrote:
> 
> > Well what you can do is use Microsoft word, and then clean up the html
> > with macromedia dreamweaver. Also you could make them kinda dirty html
> > files but try this.
> >
> >
> > Insert this in the top of your text file.
> >
> > <html>
> > <head>
> > <title>whatever title you want</title>
> > </head>
> > <body>
> > <pre>
> >
> > And now enter this in the bottom of your text file
> >
> > </pre>
> > </body>
> > </html>
> >
> > Hope this helps,
> > Sina
> >
> > -----Original Message-----
> > From: speakup-admin@braille.uwo.ca [mailto:speakup-admin@braille.uwo.ca]
> > On Behalf Of Alex Snow
> > Sent: Monday, August 25, 2003 7:27 PM
> > To: speakup@braille.uwo.ca
> > Subject: Re: text to html
> >
> >
> > I was just looking for a tool that'll add stuff like <br> tags and
> > stuff. I needed it for converting textfiles into html that I could use
> > on webpages...I used to use word for that but It inserts a lot of
> > useless crap and the files are quite large.
> > ----- Original Message -----
> > From: "Janina Sajka" <janina@rednote.net>
> > To: <speakup@braille.uwo.ca>
> > Sent: Monday, August 25, 2003 12:57 PM
> > Subject: Re: text to html
> >
> >
> > > You're kidding, right?
> > >
> > > I mean, what good thing do you expect from a program like this?
> > >
> > > How are you supposed to get automatic markup out of flat text with no
> > > markup?
> > >
> > > Certainly, you can't expect meaningful structural markup?
> > >
> > >
> > > Alex Snow writes:
> > > > From: "Alex Snow" <alex_snow@gmx.net>
> > > >
> > > >    Hi all.
> > > >    Does anyone know of a program for linux that converts text files
> > > > to
> > html?
> > > >
> > >
> > > --
> > >
> > > Janina Sajka, Director
> > > Technology Research and Development
> > > Governmental Relations Group
> > > American Foundation for the Blind (AFB)
> > >
> > > Email: janina@afb.net Phone: (202) 408-8175
> > >
> > > _______________________________________________
> > > Speakup mailing list
> > > Speakup@braille.uwo.ca
> > > http://speech.braille.uwo.ca/mailman/listinfo/speakup
> > >
> >
> >
> > _______________________________________________
> > Speakup mailing list
> > Speakup@braille.uwo.ca
> > http://speech.braille.uwo.ca/mailman/listinfo/speakup
> >
> >
> >
> > _______________________________________________
> > Speakup mailing list
> > Speakup@braille.uwo.ca
> > http://speech.braille.uwo.ca/mailman/listinfo/speakup
> >
> 
> _______________________________________________
> Speakup mailing list
> Speakup@braille.uwo.ca
> http://speech.braille.uwo.ca/mailman/listinfo/speakup

-- 
	
				Janina Sajka, Director
				Technology Research and Development
				Governmental Relations Group
				American Foundation for the Blind (AFB)

Email: janina@afb.net		Phone: (202) 408-8175

Re: text to html

[Janina Sajka]

Alex,

This just isn't right.

Do you realize what kind of accessibility barriers you're throwing up
for people with this kind of approach? It rather raises the serious
question of whether you mean to walk the walk, or just talk the talk.

Yes, Word puts crap into html under the Save As option. But why is that
your only other option?

If you have to use Word, there's software that will do better.


Alex Snow writes:
> From: "Alex Snow" <alex_snow@gmx.net>
> 
> I was just looking for a tool that'll add stuff like <br> tags and stuff. I
> needed it for converting textfiles into html that I could use on
> webpages...I used to use word for that but It inserts a lot of useless crap
> and the files are quite large.
> ----- Original Message -----

-- 
	
				Janina Sajka, Director
				Technology Research and Development
				Governmental Relations Group
				American Foundation for the Blind (AFB)

Email: janina@afb.net		Phone: (202) 408-8175

RE: text to html

[Sina Bahram]

This is very true, but that is why I called them dirty html. Not only do
they mess with the fonts, they are also just bad form, and I would never
put something on a webpage unless if it were in diar need, looking like
that; however, I can also appreciate situations where you only have one
day and need something, even if it's temporary, up there. So I was just
offering one possible solution.

Take care,
sina

-----Original Message-----
From: speakup-admin@braille.uwo.ca [mailto:speakup-admin@braille.uwo.ca]
On Behalf Of Luke Davis
Sent: Monday, August 25, 2003 6:46 PM
To: speakup@braille.uwo.ca
Subject: RE: text to html


That usually does very bad things to fonts, etc., I am told by sighties.


On Mon, 25 Aug 2003, Sina Bahram wrote:

> Well what you can do is use Microsoft word, and then clean up the html

> with macromedia dreamweaver. Also you could make them kinda dirty html

> files but try this.
>
>
> Insert this in the top of your text file.
>
> <html>
> <head>
> <title>whatever title you want</title>
> </head>
> <body>
> <pre>
>
> And now enter this in the bottom of your text file
>
> </pre>
> </body>
> </html>
>
> Hope this helps,
> Sina
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: speakup-admin@braille.uwo.ca 
> [mailto:speakup-admin@braille.uwo.ca]
> On Behalf Of Alex Snow
> Sent: Monday, August 25, 2003 7:27 PM
> To: speakup@braille.uwo.ca
> Subject: Re: text to html
>
>
> I was just looking for a tool that'll add stuff like <br> tags and 
> stuff. I needed it for converting textfiles into html that I could use

> on webpages...I used to use word for that but It inserts a lot of 
> useless crap and the files are quite large.
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: "Janina Sajka" <janina@rednote.net>
> To: <speakup@braille.uwo.ca>
> Sent: Monday, August 25, 2003 12:57 PM
> Subject: Re: text to html
>
>
> > You're kidding, right?
> >
> > I mean, what good thing do you expect from a program like this?
> >
> > How are you supposed to get automatic markup out of flat text with 
> > no markup?
> >
> > Certainly, you can't expect meaningful structural markup?
> >
> >
> > Alex Snow writes:
> > > From: "Alex Snow" <alex_snow@gmx.net>
> > >
> > >    Hi all.
> > >    Does anyone know of a program for linux that converts text 
> > > files to
> html?
> > >
> >
> > --
> >
> > Janina Sajka, Director
> > Technology Research and Development
> > Governmental Relations Group
> > American Foundation for the Blind (AFB)
> >
> > Email: janina@afb.net Phone: (202) 408-8175
> >
> > _______________________________________________
> > Speakup mailing list
> > Speakup@braille.uwo.ca 
> > http://speech.braille.uwo.ca/mailman/listinfo/speakup
> >
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> Speakup mailing list
> Speakup@braille.uwo.ca 
> http://speech.braille.uwo.ca/mailman/listinfo/speakup
>
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> Speakup mailing list
> Speakup@braille.uwo.ca 
> http://speech.braille.uwo.ca/mailman/listinfo/speakup
>

_______________________________________________
Speakup mailing list
Speakup@braille.uwo.ca
http://speech.braille.uwo.ca/mailman/listinfo/speakup

Re: text to html

[Alex Snow]

I was just looking for a tool that'll add stuff like <br> tags and stuff. I
needed it for converting textfiles into html that I could use on
webpages...I used to use word for that but It inserts a lot of useless crap
and the files are quite large.
----- Original Message -----
From: "Janina Sajka" <janina@rednote.net>
To: <speakup@braille.uwo.ca>
Sent: Monday, August 25, 2003 12:57 PM
Subject: Re: text to html


> You're kidding, right?
>
> I mean, what good thing do you expect from a program like this?
>
> How are you supposed to get automatic markup out of flat text with no
> markup?
>
> Certainly, you can't expect meaningful structural markup?
>
>
> Alex Snow writes:
> > From: "Alex Snow" <alex_snow@gmx.net>
> >
> >    Hi all.
> >    Does anyone know of a program for linux that converts text files to
html?
> >
>
> --
>
> Janina Sajka, Director
> Technology Research and Development
> Governmental Relations Group
> American Foundation for the Blind (AFB)
>
> Email: janina@afb.net Phone: (202) 408-8175
>
> _______________________________________________
> Speakup mailing list
> Speakup@braille.uwo.ca
> http://speech.braille.uwo.ca/mailman/listinfo/speakup
>

Re: text to html

[Alex Snow]

There's a pascal compiler for linux. It's called free pascal and installs
really easily and I think is pretty much turbo pascal compatible but with
extensions. It's at www.freepascal.org.
----- Original Message -----
From: "Guy Abandon." <text.tools@virgin.net>
To: <speakup@braille.uwo.ca>
Sent: Monday, August 25, 2003 3:44 PM
Subject: Re: text to html


> The tool I did would enforce the <br>  markers or <p> and find obvious
> urls and make active links out of them and all manner of things if you
> scribbled in a simple text editor and want it to form the basis of a
> quick web page.
>
> Others wrote similar utilities under DOS too, in the early days of the
> web of course and they didn't get developed very far.  As you more or
> less stated, there's not far you can take something like that.  But
> the one I did was useful to me. I've still got a set of web pages that
> were ran off out of a batch file using said txt2htm utility.
>
> Now if I thought there was a Pascal compiler for Linux....    I admit
> to preferring the Pascal language to C!
>
> GA!
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> Speakup mailing list
> Speakup@braille.uwo.ca
> http://speech.braille.uwo.ca/mailman/listinfo/speakup
>

RE: text to html

[Luke Davis]

That usually does very bad things to fonts, etc., I am told by sighties.


On Mon, 25 Aug 2003, Sina Bahram wrote:

> Well what you can do is use Microsoft word, and then clean up the html
> with macromedia dreamweaver. Also you could make them kinda dirty html
> files but try this.
>
>
> Insert this in the top of your text file.
>
> <html>
> <head>
> <title>whatever title you want</title>
> </head>
> <body>
> <pre>
>
> And now enter this in the bottom of your text file
>
> </pre>
> </body>
> </html>
>
> Hope this helps,
> Sina
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: speakup-admin@braille.uwo.ca [mailto:speakup-admin@braille.uwo.ca]
> On Behalf Of Alex Snow
> Sent: Monday, August 25, 2003 7:27 PM
> To: speakup@braille.uwo.ca
> Subject: Re: text to html
>
>
> I was just looking for a tool that'll add stuff like <br> tags and
> stuff. I needed it for converting textfiles into html that I could use
> on webpages...I used to use word for that but It inserts a lot of
> useless crap and the files are quite large.
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: "Janina Sajka" <janina@rednote.net>
> To: <speakup@braille.uwo.ca>
> Sent: Monday, August 25, 2003 12:57 PM
> Subject: Re: text to html
>
>
> > You're kidding, right?
> >
> > I mean, what good thing do you expect from a program like this?
> >
> > How are you supposed to get automatic markup out of flat text with no
> > markup?
> >
> > Certainly, you can't expect meaningful structural markup?
> >
> >
> > Alex Snow writes:
> > > From: "Alex Snow" <alex_snow@gmx.net>
> > >
> > >    Hi all.
> > >    Does anyone know of a program for linux that converts text files
> > > to
> html?
> > >
> >
> > --
> >
> > Janina Sajka, Director
> > Technology Research and Development
> > Governmental Relations Group
> > American Foundation for the Blind (AFB)
> >
> > Email: janina@afb.net Phone: (202) 408-8175
> >
> > _______________________________________________
> > Speakup mailing list
> > Speakup@braille.uwo.ca
> > http://speech.braille.uwo.ca/mailman/listinfo/speakup
> >
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> Speakup mailing list
> Speakup@braille.uwo.ca
> http://speech.braille.uwo.ca/mailman/listinfo/speakup
>
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> Speakup mailing list
> Speakup@braille.uwo.ca
> http://speech.braille.uwo.ca/mailman/listinfo/speakup
>

RE: text to html

[Sina Bahram]

Haha, it seems you beat me to the suggestion, I had hit send before I
downloaded your email though. My email included the suggestions of pre
elements as well.

*chuckling*

Take care,
Sina

-----Original Message-----
From: speakup-admin@braille.uwo.ca [mailto:speakup-admin@braille.uwo.ca]
On Behalf Of Luke Davis
Sent: Monday, August 25, 2003 6:35 PM
To: speakup@braille.uwo.ca
Subject: Re: text to html


I would certainly like a text2html converter.  In one particular case of
many...

Every couple months, I get an entire store catalog in text form, which I
am supposed to place on the web site of said store.  As it stands, I
mostly just incapsulate the entire thing in pre elements.  If I were to
mark it up by hand, it would take quite some time.  All it really needs,
are paragraphs and line breaks.  Stylesheets can handle much of the
rest.

One of these days, I'll get sick enough of it to write an app for the
purpose.

Luke


On Mon, 25 Aug 2003, Guy Abandon. wrote:

> The tool I did would enforce the <br>  markers or <p> and find obvious

> urls and make active links out of them and all manner of things if you

> scribbled in a simple text editor and want it to form the basis of a 
> quick web page.
>
> Others wrote similar utilities under DOS too, in the early days of the

> web of course and they didn't get developed very far.  As you more or 
> less stated, there's not far you can take something like that.  But 
> the one I did was useful to me. I've still got a set of web pages that

> were ran off out of a batch file using said txt2htm utility.
>
> Now if I thought there was a Pascal compiler for Linux....    I admit
> to preferring the Pascal language to C!
>
> GA!
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> Speakup mailing list
> Speakup@braille.uwo.ca 
> http://speech.braille.uwo.ca/mailman/listinfo/speakup
>

_______________________________________________
Speakup mailing list
Speakup@braille.uwo.ca
http://speech.braille.uwo.ca/mailman/listinfo/speakup

Re: text to html

[Luke Davis]

I would certainly like a text2html converter.  In one particular case of
many...

Every couple months, I get an entire store catalog in text form, which I
am supposed to place on the web site of said store.  As it stands, I
mostly just incapsulate the entire thing in pre elements.  If I were to
mark it up by hand, it would take quite some time.  All it really needs,
are paragraphs and line breaks.  Stylesheets can handle much of the rest.

One of these days, I'll get sick enough of it to write an app for the
purpose.

Luke


On Mon, 25 Aug 2003, Guy Abandon. wrote:

> The tool I did would enforce the <br>  markers or <p> and find obvious
> urls and make active links out of them and all manner of things if you
> scribbled in a simple text editor and want it to form the basis of a
> quick web page.
>
> Others wrote similar utilities under DOS too, in the early days of the
> web of course and they didn't get developed very far.  As you more or
> less stated, there's not far you can take something like that.  But
> the one I did was useful to me. I've still got a set of web pages that
> were ran off out of a batch file using said txt2htm utility.
>
> Now if I thought there was a Pascal compiler for Linux....    I admit
> to preferring the Pascal language to C!
>
> GA!
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> Speakup mailing list
> Speakup@braille.uwo.ca
> http://speech.braille.uwo.ca/mailman/listinfo/speakup
>

RE: text to html

[Sina Bahram]

Well what you can do is use Microsoft word, and then clean up the html
with macromedia dreamweaver. Also you could make them kinda dirty html
files but try this.


Insert this in the top of your text file.

<html>
<head>
<title>whatever title you want</title>
</head>
<body>
<pre>

And now enter this in the bottom of your text file

</pre>
</body>
</html>

Hope this helps,
Sina

-----Original Message-----
From: speakup-admin@braille.uwo.ca [mailto:speakup-admin@braille.uwo.ca]
On Behalf Of Alex Snow
Sent: Monday, August 25, 2003 7:27 PM
To: speakup@braille.uwo.ca
Subject: Re: text to html


I was just looking for a tool that'll add stuff like <br> tags and
stuff. I needed it for converting textfiles into html that I could use
on webpages...I used to use word for that but It inserts a lot of
useless crap and the files are quite large.
----- Original Message -----
From: "Janina Sajka" <janina@rednote.net>
To: <speakup@braille.uwo.ca>
Sent: Monday, August 25, 2003 12:57 PM
Subject: Re: text to html


> You're kidding, right?
>
> I mean, what good thing do you expect from a program like this?
>
> How are you supposed to get automatic markup out of flat text with no 
> markup?
>
> Certainly, you can't expect meaningful structural markup?
>
>
> Alex Snow writes:
> > From: "Alex Snow" <alex_snow@gmx.net>
> >
> >    Hi all.
> >    Does anyone know of a program for linux that converts text files 
> > to
html?
> >
>
> --
>
> Janina Sajka, Director
> Technology Research and Development
> Governmental Relations Group
> American Foundation for the Blind (AFB)
>
> Email: janina@afb.net Phone: (202) 408-8175
>
> _______________________________________________
> Speakup mailing list
> Speakup@braille.uwo.ca 
> http://speech.braille.uwo.ca/mailman/listinfo/speakup
>


_______________________________________________
Speakup mailing list
Speakup@braille.uwo.ca
http://speech.braille.uwo.ca/mailman/listinfo/speakup

Re: text to html

[Jacob Schmude]

Hi
Actually, there are a few. Gnu pascal is one such compiler, but that requires you to rebuild your GCC to implement pascal. Another is Free Pascal
http://www.freepascal.org
It seems mostly turbo pascal compatible and you can get binaries that are ready-built for linux.

HTH
On Mon, 25 Aug 2003 21:44:38 +0100, Guy Abandon. wrote:
>Now if I thought there was a Pascal compiler for Linux....    I admit
>to preferring the Pascal language to C!

Re: text to html

[Guy Abandon.]

AHAHAHAHAHAAAA!  but this is the opposite of what you first asked
for....   html to .txt is more reasonable altogether.  I think Links
can save as that under the file options.

GA!
----- Original Message -----
From: "Gregory Nowak" <greg@romuald.net.eu.org>
To: <speakup@braille.uwo.ca>
Sent: Monday, August 25, 2003 8:46 PM
Subject: Re: text to html


Markup or not, I personally like the fact that I can take a text file,
converted from html or something else,

Re: text to html

[Guy Abandon.]

The tool I did would enforce the <br>  markers or <p> and find obvious
urls and make active links out of them and all manner of things if you
scribbled in a simple text editor and want it to form the basis of a
quick web page.

Others wrote similar utilities under DOS too, in the early days of the
web of course and they didn't get developed very far.  As you more or
less stated, there's not far you can take something like that.  But
the one I did was useful to me. I've still got a set of web pages that
were ran off out of a batch file using said txt2htm utility.

Now if I thought there was a Pascal compiler for Linux....    I admit
to preferring the Pascal language to C!

GA!

Re: text to html

[Guy Abandon.]

H'mmmnmnmnm,,,...   that threw me!  This is an unusual way round. I
did a tool like this...   but under DOS and haven't got to the
conversion thing yet.

Sorry!

GA!

Re: text to html

[Gregory Nowak]

Sorry about that, wasn't really paying attention, and thought the
subject was html to text.

Greg


On Mon, Aug 25, 2003 at 02:46:52PM -0500, Gregory Nowak wrote:
> Markup or not, I personally like the fact that I can take a text file,
> converted from html or something else, load it into my braille 'n
> speak (which is smaller and lighter then a laptop), and take it
> where ever I need it. As for the markup, the find command is my friend
> if I know what I'm looking for. Yes, it's not as simple as just
> activating a link, but it still does the job.
> Just my $.02 worth.
> 
> Greg
> 
> 

-- 
Free domains: http://www.eu.org/ or mail dns-manager@EU.org

Re: text to html

[Gregory Nowak]

Markup or not, I personally like the fact that I can take a text file,
converted from html or something else, load it into my braille 'n
speak (which is smaller and lighter then a laptop), and take it
where ever I need it. As for the markup, the find command is my friend
if I know what I'm looking for. Yes, it's not as simple as just
activating a link, but it still does the job.
Just my $.02 worth.

Greg


On Mon, Aug 25, 2003 at 01:57:23PM -0400, Janina Sajka wrote:
> You're kidding, right?
> 
> I mean, what good thing do you expect from a program like this?
> 
> How are you supposed to get automatic markup out of flat text with no
> markup?
> 
> Certainly, you can't expect meaningful structural markup?
> 
> 

-- 
Free domains: http://www.eu.org/ or mail dns-manager@EU.org

text to html

[Alex Snow]

[-- Attachment #1: Type: text/plain, Size: 86 bytes --]

Hi all.
Does anyone know of a program for linux that converts text files to html?


[-- Attachment #2: Type: text/html, Size: 457 bytes --]

Re: text to html

[Janina Sajka]

You're kidding, right?

I mean, what good thing do you expect from a program like this?

How are you supposed to get automatic markup out of flat text with no
markup?

Certainly, you can't expect meaningful structural markup?


Alex Snow writes:
> From: "Alex Snow" <alex_snow@gmx.net>
> 
>    Hi all.
>    Does anyone know of a program for linux that converts text files to html?
>     

-- 
	
				Janina Sajka, Director
				Technology Research and Development
				Governmental Relations Group
				American Foundation for the Blind (AFB)

Email: janina@afb.net		Phone: (202) 408-8175