From mboxrd@z Thu Jan 1 00:00:00 1970 Return-Path: Received: by befuddled.reisers.ca (Postfix, from userid 65534) id 019971EF6F0; Thu, 9 Oct 2014 17:14:15 -0400 (EDT) Received: from mta1.math.wisc.edu (mta1.math.wisc.edu [144.92.166.23]) by befuddled.reisers.ca (Postfix) with ESMTP id 57AD31EF6DE for ; Thu, 9 Oct 2014 17:14:14 -0400 (EDT) Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by mta1.math.wisc.edu (Postfix) with ESMTP id 475E549D031 for ; Thu, 9 Oct 2014 16:14:11 -0500 (CDT) Received: from mta1.math.wisc.edu ([127.0.0.1]) by localhost (mta1.math.wisc.edu [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id K2vWYZl_63tp for ; Thu, 9 Oct 2014 16:14:11 -0500 (CDT) Received: from mta1.math.wisc.edu (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by mta1.math.wisc.edu (Postfix) with ESMTP id A20B549D018 for ; Thu, 9 Oct 2014 16:14:10 -0500 (CDT) X-Spam-Checker-Version: SpamAssassin 3.3.2 (2011-06-06) on mta1.math.wisc.edu X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-101.0 required=6.5 tests=ALL_TRUSTED, USER_IN_WHITELIST autolearn=disabled version=3.3.2 Received: from mailhost.math.wisc.edu (erdos.math.wisc.edu [144.92.166.25]) by mta1.math.wisc.edu (Postfix) with ESMTP for ; Thu, 9 Oct 2014 16:14:10 -0500 (CDT) Received: from [144.92.166.19] (vv507j.math.wisc.edu [144.92.166.19]) (using TLSv1 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES128-SHA (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by mailhost.math.wisc.edu (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 97CA842001B for ; Thu, 9 Oct 2014 16:14:10 -0500 (CDT) Message-ID: <5436FAA2.6020700@math.wisc.edu> Date: Thu, 09 Oct 2014 16:14:10 -0500 From: "John G. Heim" User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (X11; Linux x86_64; rv:24.0) Gecko/20100101 Icedove/24.8.1 MIME-Version: 1.0 To: "Speakup is a screen review system for Linux." Subject: Re: speakup in the kernel References: <86a956i23h.fsf@vibrator.pk5001z> <20141009125200.GI1044@opera.rednote.net> <86ppe1gyed.fsf@vibrator.pk5001z> <5436B2E4.5060306@math.wisc.edu> <5436B66A.4060600@tysdomain.com> <5436BD4A.1090208@math.wisc.edu> <21053.1412882630@ccs.covici.com> <5436EA36.5010105@math.wisc.edu> <32559.1412887511@ccs.covici.com> In-Reply-To: <32559.1412887511@ccs.covici.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Bogosity: Ham, tests=bogofilter, spamicity=0.000000, version=1.2.4 X-BeenThere: speakup@linux-speakup.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.18 Precedence: list List-Id: "Speakup is a screen review system for Linux." List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 09 Oct 2014 21:14:16 -0000 Well, lets try again. I think I didn't participate last time because I don't know anything about coding to talk to the serial port. Maybe if we broaden the scope a little it will garner more interest. As I said, I agree with the assertion someone made (Janina?) that the first thing we should do is write up some specs. I am willing to manage the project if you'd like. Or you can take charge. I'm fine either way. And for what it's worth, I can offer the resources of the International Association of Visually Impaired Technologists. We have a web server and some money. I could probably pull together a couple hundred bucks if it would help. On 10/09/14 15:45, covici@ccs.covici.com wrote: > I could not get anyone to talk about the serial parts of speakup, I > wanted to set up a conference call, but I could not get anyone to > participate. > > As for the serial console, the point was that it was not up to kernel > coding standards to patch the kernel directly, what the kernel guys want > us to do is to write a driver, as though speakup were a strange piece of > hardware which would register in the appropriate way and then it could > do any reasonable thing. I was looking at how to do this by looking at > the serial driver so I could look for any serial port, but I got > involved in some other projects, so I had to postpone that work. > > John G. Heim wrote: > >> John, didn't you once try to form a team to get started on a rewrite >> of speakup. What ever happened with that? I'm not sure who said it >> but I agree with whomever said the first thing we should do is try to >> get a concensus on what we need in a screen reader. >> >> But I am a bit confused by something you said below. Isn't the serial >> console code in the kernel up to kernel coding standards? The reason I >> ask is that I once asked on the kernel developers list what the right >> way to access the serial port was. If speakup does it wrong, that >> implies there is a right way, what is that? I didn't really get a >> good answer. That's when I started poking around in the serial console >> code. >> >> I wish there was a good way to get explanations of this stuff from the >> kernel developers. >> >> >> >> >> On 10/09/14 14:23, covici@ccs.covici.com wrote: >>> The first serial driver I wrote for speakup was like that, I copied >>> stuff from the serial console, but it had to be changed to conform to >>> the kernel specs, so you didn't have to patch the actual kernel. >>> >>> John G. Heim wrote: >>> >>>> I once spent an afternoon poking around in the serial console code >>>> trying to see how it wrote to the serial port. I never did figure it >>>> out though. Even so, it seems to me that what speakup does is pretty >>>> similar to the serial console. >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> On 10/09/14 11:23, Littlefield, Tyler wrote: >>>>> Re: writing directly to the serial port, Is there another layer that the >>>>> kernel provides that we could go through to avoid that issue entirely? >>>>> How do other devices work, or is there not any other such modules in the >>>>> kernel that do use the serial port like speakup does for synths? >>>>> On 10/9/2014 12:08 PM, John G. Heim wrote: >>>>>> Hmmm... I don't know. I have to say that I remain unconvinced. I've >>>>>> never seen speakup cause a kernel panic. On the other hand, I have >>>>>> witnessed the false cause effect. Something happens that causes a >>>>>> kernel panic and since speakup is part of the kernel, it naturally has >>>>>> problems. You were on a development server, right? Isn't it more >>>>>> likely that one of the developers crashed the server amd that, in >>>>>> turn, caused problems for speakup? I run some development servers here >>>>>> at the UW math department and it happens all the time. Somebody causes >>>>>> an OOM (out of memory) event and, yes, that crashes speakup. >>>>>> >>>>>> I once asked on the kernel developers list for comments on what's >>>>>> wrong with the speakup code. There is that one biggie, of course, >>>>>> speakup writes directly to the serial port. But all the other >>>>>> criticisms were things like not following naming conventions, poor >>>>>> indentation, etc. Maybe the people who mattered didn't bother to >>>>>> answer my question. But there wasn't anything in there that would tend >>>>>> to indicate that speakup is prone to causing kernel panics. Now, any >>>>>> software package can have a bug. But I have no reason to believe that >>>>>> speakup is particularly unstable. Quite the contrary in fact. >>>>>> >>>>>> And even if there is a bug in speakup that can cause a kernel panic, >>>>>> that's an argument for finding the bug and fixing it. Not for >>>>>> abandoning it entirely. >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> On 10/09/14 08:34, Deedra Waters wrote: >>>>>>> Janina, >>>>>>> >>>>>>> speakup was the cause because when bossman came down to hook up a >>>>>>> monitor and look, the panick messages had something to do with speakup. >>>>>>> >>>>>>> As for backing up their work, they were trying to fix their fuck-up to >>>>>>> begin with. The initial problem wasn't with speakup. However when i was >>>>>>> helping them debug it, speakup made the kernel panick and crash. >>>>>>> >>>>>>> Debian i dont think likes people with root access on their box to begin >>>>>>> with, but i think they kind of didn't like speakup in their kernel to >>>>>>> begin with. >>>>>>> >>>>>>> I suspect on the other hand that if speakup was a user-space app, it >>>>>>> wouldn't have mattered to them so much. If a userspace program crashes >>>>>>> it doesn't take down the whole box. When speakup does though, it takes >>>>>>> down the whole box. >>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>> _______________________________________________ >>>>>> Speakup mailing list >>>>>> Speakup@linux-speakup.org >>>>>> http://linux-speakup.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/speakup >>>>> >>>>> >>>> _______________________________________________ >>>> Speakup mailing list >>>> Speakup@linux-speakup.org >>>> http://linux-speakup.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/speakup >>> >> _______________________________________________ >> Speakup mailing list >> Speakup@linux-speakup.org >> http://linux-speakup.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/speakup >