From mboxrd@z Thu Jan 1 00:00:00 1970 From: blinux-list at redhat.com (Linux for blind general discussion) Date: Sun, 14 Aug 2022 00:34:24 -0400 (EDT) Subject: "Accessibility in Fedora Workstation" (fwd) In-Reply-To: <033301d8af87$4227f3f0$80ffa8c0@Win7VM> References: <1e623296-a020-b22d-52cc-77e3a01c2f61@pobox.com> <871qtkrs03.fsf@zamazal.org> <02e001d8af3c$0d4cdfb0$80ffa8c0@Win7VM> <02fe01d8af46$46cde5e0$80ffa8c0@Win7VM> <031101d8af50$8f3d3fb0$80ffa8c0@Win7VM> <033301d8af87$4227f3f0$80ffa8c0@Win7VM> Message-ID: List-Id: And where do these employers learn about jaws? In fact, provide if you do not mind an example of how this works exactly. after all, unless I am incorrect, these employers are not personal Jaws users, meaning someone they trust continues to sell them on an expensive program instead of a largely free one. On Sat, 13 Aug 2022, K0LNY_Glenn wrote: > Karen, > Most employers don't want NVDA, and will only allow Jaws. > In Nebraska, if an employer said put on whatever works, the counselors will > use NVDA, because of the cost of Jaws. > If some of the clients in a call center already use Jaws, but don't know > NVDA, the counselor will use Jaws, because the other clients will need to > learn one of the two. > So it's all choice, but in the workplace, it depends on what the employer > will allow. > Also, sometimes scripts need to be made, and there are more Jaws scripters > available than there are NVDA add-on writers. > So this perception that Jaws is forced by rehab, from my 31 years in the > business I can say is rubbish. > Now, if a counselor did not know how to use NVDA, and either may be chosen, > the rehab counselor is able to select the one that the counselor feels is > best for the student and for the counselor's teaching. > When it comes to part B moneys, which is used for non-vocational purchases, > where a lot of Jaws purchases come from, it is in the agency's best interest > to spend as little as possible, because that doesn't come back like VR > expenditures do. > Glenn > > ----- Original Message ----- > From: "Karen Lewellen" > To: "K0LNY_Glenn" > Cc: ; "Milan Zamazal" ; > > Sent: Saturday, August 13, 2022 6:15 PM > Subject: Re: "Accessibility in Fedora Workstation" (fwd) > > > The challenge with that example is that, as one often gets reminded, the > rehab systems track record for facilitating employment for their clients > is quite poor. > With a high percentage of unemployment among our clients. Making, > speaking personally, your buying Jaws for personal use not really > reflecting how the system would respond to an alternative request. > Now if someone from organized rehab said, okay freedom scientific, we are > creating an employment program where our clients will train in Linux, > needing a solid screen reader solution for the system. We will give you an > exclusive development contract for s millions to create the tool. > Fs would likely say where do we sign? > > > > On Sat, 13 Aug 2022, K0LNY_Glenn wrote: > >> True enough, but largely, rehab people typically use Windows at work, and >> probably at home, but they need to cater to the needs of the client. >> If a client used Linux, I doubt that any rehab counselor would advocate >> that >> the client switch to Windows, unless that was needed for a specific job. >> In Nebraska, we purchased Jaws much more for personal use than we did for >> work related situations. >> So if FS made a JFL, and people were using Linux, rehab would indeed >> purchase a JFL product. >> Glenn >> ----- Original Message ----- >> From: "Karen Lewellen" >> To: "K0LNY_Glenn" >> Cc: ; "Milan Zamazal" ; >> >> Sent: Saturday, August 13, 2022 3:01 PM >> Subject: Re: "Accessibility in Fedora Workstation" (fwd) >> >> >> there was an interesting discussion a month or so back on the blinux list >> about how long it took completing tasks in the gui as apposed to say >> command line, the comments were quite informative. >> Still, fs has never marketed largely to the end user. Instead they market >> to the American rehab community. >> how much market research has the rehab community done to support the need >> for choices? >> How many rehab counselors support training in Linux? >> one comment made by the subject of this thread about poor quality speech >> is a fine one...out of the box Linux has few speech choices. everyone >> brings their needs to the table there. >> >> if you want to get fs to care about Linux, you need to prove there is >> money for them there, from their main source of income. >> >> >> >> On Sat, 13 Aug 2022, K0LNY_Glenn wrote: >> >>> Well since Orca seems to work on so many distros, I don't know why FS >>> would >>> not be able to do the same. >>> If Jaws users could switch into Linux, it would be a real game changer, >>> and >>> I think with lots more Blind Linux users, we would start seeing >>> accessibility in Linux not being a second thought. >>> Glenn >>> ----- Original Message ----- >>> From: "Karen Lewellen" >>> To: "K0LNY_Glenn" >>> Cc: ; "Milan Zamazal" ; >>> >>> Sent: Saturday, August 13, 2022 1:47 PM >>> Subject: Re: "Accessibility in Fedora Workstation" (fwd) >>> >>> >>> Well technically freedom scientific does not exist any longer, being >>> bought >>> by another company. >>> Still, I can respect why they, or nvda have not created their tools for >>> Linux. >>> That is because as I understand it, Linux is quite like clay. You can >>> mold a distribution into almost anything. there are various >>> personifications of the system, all sorts of ways and changes and options >>> for creativity. >>> however adaptive tools are often extensions of physical characteristics, >>> hands, eyes, ears, brains, combinations of these. >>> To build solid assistive tools one must have a solid foundation as it >>> were. that is part of why there have needed to be so few Apple efforts >>> at >>> inclusion, they created with, and then created in-house adaptive tools >>> for various populations that were built into the system. >>> Although Microsoft did not bother until much later, in theory at least, >>> the >>> consistency of windows is what makes it possible for freedom or the >>> former >>> gw micro or nvda to create something that can in theory work. >>> Floor for the furniture is somewhat solid. >>> Just my thoughts, >>> >>> >>> >>> On Sat, 13 Aug 2022, K0LNY_Glenn wrote: >>> >>>> I would like to see Freedom Scientific make a Jaws For Linux. >>>> JFL >>>> I'd certainly pay the yearly rental fee for it, and it would bring many >>>> more >>>> users into Linux. >>>> FS could, with its resources, possibly make it more robust than Orca. >>>> >>>> Glenn >>>> ----- Original Message ----- >>>> From: "Milan Zamazal" >>>> To: >>>> Cc: >>>> Sent: Saturday, August 13, 2022 12:08 PM >>>> Subject: Re: "Accessibility in Fedora Workstation" (fwd) >>>> >>>> >>>>>>>>> "KL" == Karen Lewellen writes: >>>> >>>> KL> What bothers me most are his lack of actual qualifications, and >>>> KL> absolute dismissal of what he has not experienced..as if he >>>> KL> defines Linux usage for everyone. That attitude is dangerous, >>>> KL> because he is educating those outside of the accessibility >>>> KL> experiences, who will believe his ignorance is factual. he has >>>> KL> to be expert, it is his job. >>>> >>>> Hi Karen, >>>> >>>> I know Lukas personally and I admire his skills and qualifications. I >>>> also know first hand that he is open to constructive feedback and I >>>> believe he?d be happy to be corrected about possible technical >>>> inaccuracies in the interview. It may be also a good opportunity to >>>> find out what?s possibly missing in making anybody better informed. >>>> >>>> As for ?absolute dismissal of what he has not experienced?, what >>>> reasonable free software alternatives to a less or more standard desktop >>>> with Orca and a software synthesizer can you see for a common blind user >>>> who needs to use a fully working web browser, to read and process text >>>> documents, to be compatible with other computer users, etc.? >>>> >>>> And let?s be realistic. We celebrate every single developer hired to >>>> improve accessibility. This tells something about the state of the >>>> matters. We cannot expect that a single person will fix all the kinds >>>> of accessibility problems in all the environments. Lukas works at his >>>> job focusing on certain areas currently seen there as urgent ones and I >>>> appreciate this opportunity. Anybody else seeing a need to work on >>>> other areas is welcome to contribute to whatever sees fit, as I do. >>>> >>>> Regards, >>>> Milan >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> >>> >>> >> >> > >