From mboxrd@z Thu Jan 1 00:00:00 1970 From: blinux-list at redhat.com (Linux for blind general discussion) Date: Thu, 18 Aug 2022 11:03:10 -0400 (EDT) Subject: "Accessibility in Fedora Workstation" (fwd) In-Reply-To: References: <033301d8af87$4227f3f0$80ffa8c0@Win7VM> <049901d8b17d$8869e7e0$80ffa8c0@Win7VM> <003101d8b255$9973b150$80ffa8c0@Win7VM> <003c01d8b258$0bc5acc0$80ffa8c0@Win7VM> <002201d8b278$f82e4070$80ffa8c0@Win7VM> <002f01d8b27f$0b75a640$80ffa8c0@Win7VM> <003a01d8b280$1a0da710$80ffa8c0@Win7VM> <004a01d8b2a6$e6f1ef40$80ffa8c0@Win7VM> Message-ID: List-Id: You are quite correct. what began as a discussion on how Fedora is, and is not, actually addressing accessibility has dissolved into something entirely less productive. I apologize for my part in that aspect. Best, Karen On Wed, 17 Aug 2022, Linux for blind general discussion wrote: > Might I ask what the firetruck this has to do w/Linux accessibility, & > why this branch of the discussion is allowed to persist, except, of > course, for the fact there's no moderator. > > Come on, yall--this is normally a productive list--it's now nothing > more than a dumpster fire. Can yall *please* QUIT! > > On 8/17/22, Linux for blind general discussion wrote: >> Glen, >> I have no reason to follow up on anything. The role of a commission, and >> the duty of a rehab system employee are two different things. >> that you state you work for a nfb philosophy rehab office speaks volumes >> for your integrity. >> clearly your staff simply tell this commission what they want to hear, or >> they exist in name only. >> nothing changes your description of your state. >> >> >> >> On Wed, 17 Aug 2022, K0LNY_Glenn wrote: >> >>> I knew you wouldn't follow up on it, they would just laugh at you. >>> Glenn >>> ----- Original Message ----- >>> From: "Karen Lewellen" >>> To: "K0LNY_Glenn" >>> Cc: "Butch Bussen" ; "John G. Heim" >>> ; >>> ; "Milan Zamazal" ; >>> >>> Sent: Wednesday, August 17, 2022 4:48 PM >>> Subject: Re: "Accessibility in Fedora Workstation" (fwd) >>> >>> >>> Glen, >>> why would I bother? >>> your own words as a seasoned employee speak for themselves. >>> Nebraska is an NFB philosophy state. >>> Were you here in Ontario, that could be a human rights violation, since >>> here the code establishes that claiming everyone sharing a label >>> accommodates the same is a violation of the individual's human rights. >>> No wonder the state of new York supported my professional move, if rehab >>> systems like yours are Nfb puppets. >>> The commission is not the individual rehab staffer, who states he makes >>> decisions using a NFB dictionary. >>> >>> >>> >>> On Wed, 17 Aug 2022, K0LNY_Glenn wrote: >>> >>>> Karen, >>>> Start out at the web site for >>>> Nebraska Commission for the Blind. >>>> There are links to communicate with all the board members, who are >>>> appointed >>>> by the governor. >>>> Glenn >>>> ----- Original Message ----- >>>> From: "Karen Lewellen" >>>> To: "K0LNY_Glenn" >>>> Cc: "Butch Bussen" ; "John G. Heim" >>>> ; >>>> ; "Milan Zamazal" ; >>>> >>>> Sent: Wednesday, August 17, 2022 4:24 PM >>>> Subject: Re: "Accessibility in Fedora Workstation" (fwd) >>>> >>>> >>>> Do what? >>>> where I am it is actually a violation of vendor contract to tell someone >>>> they must use a certain tool. >>>> give them the chance in an office to try several things yes. >>>> Force jaws down their throat like rehab does no. >>>> I said I wished I knew someone in Nebraska media not that I >>>> did...although >>>> perhaps. >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> On Wed, 17 Aug 2022, K0LNY_Glenn wrote: >>>> >>>>> Please do. >>>>> >>>>> ----- Original Message ----- >>>>> From: "Karen Lewellen" >>>>> To: "K0LNY_Glenn" >>>>> Cc: "Butch Bussen" ; "John G. Heim" >>>>> ; >>>>> ; "Milan Zamazal" ; >>>>> >>>>> Sent: Wednesday, August 17, 2022 3:46 PM >>>>> Subject: Re: "Accessibility in Fedora Workstation" (fwd) >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> Glen, >>>>> you are missing the point. >>>>> A commission board, at least if constructed with integrity serves as a >>>>> watchdog for your organization's activities. >>>>> Making sure that you act, objectively, and above influence with >>>>> government >>>>> funding. >>>>> That role differs from a public servant, like yourself. >>>>> In fact that the commission has members from both organizations is >>>>> exactly why you should not be a member. >>>>> if, as you said, the state has an Nfb philosophy, I wonder just how >>>>> above >>>>> influence that commission actually is, lip service attendance does not >>>>> translate to the statement you freely made. >>>>> Honestly, i wish I knew someone with Nebraska public radio. there is a >>>>> investigative, data journalism piece right here, exploring how >>>>> objective >>>>> your office is in fact. >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> On Wed, 17 Aug 2022, K0LNY_Glenn wrote: >>>>> >>>>>> Karen, >>>>>> In Nebraska, the commission board attends both consumer groups' state >>>>>> conventions. >>>>>> So there is total transparency within the consumer groups. >>>>>> The agency sends clients to both conventions for educational purposes. >>>>>> Some can go to either national convention on the state. >>>>>> Glenn >>>>>> ----- Original Message ----- >>>>>> From: "Karen Lewellen" >>>>>> To: "K0LNY_Glenn" >>>>>> Cc: "Butch Bussen" ; "John G. Heim" >>>>>> ; >>>>>> ; "Milan Zamazal" ; >>>>>> >>>>>> Sent: Wednesday, August 17, 2022 2:06 PM >>>>>> Subject: Re: "Accessibility in Fedora Workstation" (fwd) >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> wrong. >>>>>> Your first duty is to those clients You serve. as illustrated here >>>>>> the >>>>>> Nfb >>>>>> used their ability to reach insiders to influence policy to the >>>>>> detriment >>>>>> of the broader community...same can clearly be said for freedom >>>>>> scientific. >>>>>> That you stated clearly that your rehab system runs on an nfb >>>>>> philosophy >>>>>> illustrates my point perfectly. >>>>>> There are countless legal terms for such conflicts of interest, I >>>>>> dare >>>>>> say if you were serving any other clientele your government watchdog >>>>>> would >>>>>> put a stop to the practice. >>>>>> allows the organization to have undue almost antitrust influence on >>>>>> people's lives. >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> On Wed, 17 Aug 2022, K0LNY_Glenn wrote: >>>>>> >>>>>>> I don't think so, we are people first, and being a government >>>>>>> employee >>>>>>> should not preclude personal rights. >>>>>>> Besides, I attended the conventions for CEU credits, but I never >>>>>>> joined >>>>>>> with >>>>>>> dues. >>>>>>> Glenn >>>>>>> ----- Original Message ----- >>>>>>> From: "Karen Lewellen" >>>>>>> To: "K0LNY_Glenn" >>>>>>> Cc: "Butch Bussen" ; "John G. Heim" >>>>>>> ; >>>>>>> ; "Milan Zamazal" ; >>>>>>> >>>>>>> Sent: Wednesday, August 17, 2022 11:36 AM >>>>>>> Subject: Re: "Accessibility in Fedora Workstation" (fwd) >>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>>> speaking personally? >>>>>>> No government employee should be a member of the NfB. ethical >>>>>>> conflict >>>>>>> of interest personified. >>>>>>> >>>>>>> Karen >>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>>> On Wed, 17 Aug 2022, K0LNY_Glenn wrote: >>>>>>> >>>>>>>> Yeah, I had been to a state NFBN convention that year and did the >>>>>>>> PAC >>>>>>>> thing. >>>>>>>> Then when the NFB did that, I called up the state treasurer for the >>>>>>>> NFBN >>>>>>>> and >>>>>>>> cancelled my PAC plan. >>>>>>>> I told them that they don't care if I can read my money, then they >>>>>>>> don't >>>>>>>> need any from me. >>>>>>>> Glenn >>>>>>>> ----- Original Message ----- >>>>>>>> From: "Karen Lewellen" >>>>>>>> To: "Butch Bussen" >>>>>>>> Cc: "John G. Heim" ; "K0LNY_Glenn" >>>>>>>> ; >>>>>>>> ; "Milan Zamazal" ; >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> Sent: Wednesday, August 17, 2022 11:18 AM >>>>>>>> Subject: Re: "Accessibility in Fedora Workstation" (fwd) >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> My personal favorite is the rejection of money that could be >>>>>>>> identified >>>>>>>> by touch. never mind that for honestly thousands of years the >>>>>>>> practice >>>>>>>> has >>>>>>>> been common so those with limited education could still engage in >>>>>>>> commerce. >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> On Wed, 17 Aug 2022, Butch Bussen wrote: >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> Yes, I remember that. And what about their oposition to >>>>>>>>> descriptive >>>>>>>>> video, >>>>>>>>> even filed a law sute to get the law thrown out, which it was at >>>>>>>>> that >>>>>>>>> time. >>>>>>>>> 73 >>>>>>>>> Butch >>>>>>>>> WA0VJR >>>>>>>>> Node 3148 >>>>>>>>> Wallace, ks. >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> On Tue, 16 Aug 2022, John G. Heim wrote: >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> Holy cow! Are you aware that the NFB once asked Microsoft to >>>>>>>>>> *NOT* >>>>>>>>>> improve >>>>>>>>>> Narrator to the point where it would compete with Jaws? If you >>>>>>>>>> think >>>>>>>>>> the >>>>>>>>>> NFB is incapable of forcing choices on people, you are very sadly >>>>>>>>>> mistaken. >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> On 8/16/22 09:36, K0LNY_Glenn wrote: >>>>>>>>>>> This sort of thing would never happen in Nebraska, or any state >>>>>>>>>>> where >>>>>>>>>>> the >>>>>>>>>>> agency staff is of the NFB philosophy. >>>>>>>>>>> Say what you want about the NFB, no organization is without its >>>>>>>>>>> problems, >>>>>>>>>>> but it is the core philosophy that formed the NFB that knows >>>>>>>>>>> that >>>>>>>>>>> society >>>>>>>>>>> has low expectations of the Blind, and this is why the NFB >>>>>>>>>>> believes >>>>>>>>>>> in >>>>>>>>>>> skills and high expectations. >>>>>>>>>>> And with that, comes giving respect to the Blind, like the >>>>>>>>>>> respect >>>>>>>>>>> of >>>>>>>>>>> choice. >>>>>>>>>>> Yeah I know about the information of recent about NFB abuse, >>>>>>>>>>> but >>>>>>>>>>> this >>>>>>>>>>> is >>>>>>>>>>> organizational issues, unrelated to the philosophy. In fact, >>>>>>>>>>> the >>>>>>>>>>> fact >>>>>>>>>>> that >>>>>>>>>>> it has come up demonstrates that the NFB is no different than >>>>>>>>>>> any >>>>>>>>>>> other >>>>>>>>>>> organization in interpersonal staff issues. >>>>>>>>>>> And choice does not mean training center choices. >>>>>>>>>>> Choice isn't always an option, just like if you took a >>>>>>>>>>> vocational >>>>>>>>>>> course >>>>>>>>>>> in >>>>>>>>>>> college, there are things you have to take, so to me, the lack >>>>>>>>>>> of >>>>>>>>>>> choice >>>>>>>>>>> in >>>>>>>>>>> this regard is different than computer software, where all the >>>>>>>>>>> choices >>>>>>>>>>> will >>>>>>>>>>> reach the same end result. >>>>>>>>>>> In states where the NFB philosophy is embraced, if a client >>>>>>>>>>> said >>>>>>>>>>> I >>>>>>>>>>> want >>>>>>>>>>> to >>>>>>>>>>> use a Mac, or I want Window Eyes, then that is what they would >>>>>>>>>>> get, >>>>>>>>>>> no >>>>>>>>>>> questions asked. >>>>>>>>>>> They would not have to fight to get it. >>>>>>>>>>> I simply cannot imagine a counselor saying that someone has to >>>>>>>>>>> use >>>>>>>>>>> the >>>>>>>>>>> software that the counselor wants them to have. >>>>>>>>>>> When I hear that stuff, I almost cannot believe it, but I know >>>>>>>>>>> Butch >>>>>>>>>>> well >>>>>>>>>>> enough to know he wouldn't make that up. >>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>> Glenn >>>>>>>>>>> ----- Original Message ----- >>>>>>>>>>> From: "Butch Bussen" >>>>>>>>>>> To: "Karen Lewellen" >>>>>>>>>>> Cc: "K0LNY_Glenn" ; >>>>>>>>>>> ; >>>>>>>>>>> "Milan >>>>>>>>>>> Zamazal" ; >>>>>>>>>>> Sent: Tuesday, August 16, 2022 8:18 AM >>>>>>>>>>> Subject: Re: "Accessibility in Fedora Workstation" (fwd) >>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>> You are right. In Nevada, freedom pushed jaws to the rehab >>>>>>>>>>> people >>>>>>>>>>> and >>>>>>>>>>> took them out for steak diners and so forth. I fought like >>>>>>>>>>> hell >>>>>>>>>>> to >>>>>>>>>>> get >>>>>>>>>>> them to buy window-eyes. >>>>>>>>>>> 73 >>>>>>>>>>> Butch >>>>>>>>>>> WA0VJR >>>>>>>>>>> Node 3148 >>>>>>>>>>> Wallace, ks. >>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>> On Sun, 14 Aug 2022, Karen Lewellen wrote: >>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>> And where do these employers learn about jaws? >>>>>>>>>>>> In fact, provide if you do not mind an example of how this >>>>>>>>>>>> works >>>>>>>>>>>> exactly. >>>>>>>>>>>> after all, unless I am incorrect, these employers are not >>>>>>>>>>>> personal >>>>>>>>>>>> Jaws >>>>>>>>>>>> users, meaning someone they trust continues to sell them on an >>>>>>>>>>>> expensive >>>>>>>>>>>> program instead of a largely free one. >>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>> On Sat, 13 Aug 2022, K0LNY_Glenn wrote: >>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>> Karen, >>>>>>>>>>>>> Most employers don't want NVDA, and will only allow Jaws. >>>>>>>>>>>>> In Nebraska, if an employer said put on whatever works, the >>>>>>>>>>>>> counselors >>>>>>>>>>>>> will >>>>>>>>>>>>> use NVDA, because of the cost of Jaws. >>>>>>>>>>>>> If some of the clients in a call center already use Jaws, >>>>>>>>>>>>> but >>>>>>>>>>>>> don't know >>>>>>>>>>>>> NVDA, the counselor will use Jaws, because the other >>>>>>>>>>>>> clients >>>>>>>>>>>>> will >>>>>>>>>>>>> need >>>>>>>>>>>>> to >>>>>>>>>>>>> learn one of the two. >>>>>>>>>>>>> So it's all choice, but in the workplace, it depends on >>>>>>>>>>>>> what >>>>>>>>>>>>> the >>>>>>>>>>>>> employer >>>>>>>>>>>>> will allow. >>>>>>>>>>>>> Also, sometimes scripts need to be made, and there are more >>>>>>>>>>>>> Jaws >>>>>>>>>>>>> scripters >>>>>>>>>>>>> available than there are NVDA add-on writers. >>>>>>>>>>>>> So this perception that Jaws is forced by rehab, from my 31 >>>>>>>>>>>>> years >>>>>>>>>>>>> in the >>>>>>>>>>>>> business I can say is rubbish. >>>>>>>>>>>>> Now, if a counselor did not know how to use NVDA, and >>>>>>>>>>>>> either >>>>>>>>>>>>> may >>>>>>>>>>>>> be >>>>>>>>>>>>> chosen, >>>>>>>>>>>>> the rehab counselor is able to select the one that the >>>>>>>>>>>>> counselor >>>>>>>>>>>>> feels >>>>>>>>>>>>> is >>>>>>>>>>>>> best for the student and for the counselor's teaching. >>>>>>>>>>>>> When it comes to part B moneys, which is used for >>>>>>>>>>>>> non-vocational >>>>>>>>>>>>> purchases, >>>>>>>>>>>>> where a lot of Jaws purchases come from, it is in the >>>>>>>>>>>>> agency's >>>>>>>>>>>>> best >>>>>>>>>>>>> interest >>>>>>>>>>>>> to spend as little as possible, because that doesn't come >>>>>>>>>>>>> back >>>>>>>>>>>>> like VR >>>>>>>>>>>>> expenditures do. >>>>>>>>>>>>> Glenn >>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>> ----- Original Message ----- >>>>>>>>>>>>> From: "Karen Lewellen" >>>>>>>>>>>>> To: "K0LNY_Glenn" >>>>>>>>>>>>> Cc: ; "Milan Zamazal" >>>>>>>>>>>>> ; >>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>> Sent: Saturday, August 13, 2022 6:15 PM >>>>>>>>>>>>> Subject: Re: "Accessibility in Fedora Workstation" (fwd) >>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>> The challenge with that example is that, as one often gets >>>>>>>>>>>>> reminded, >>>>>>>>>>>>> the >>>>>>>>>>>>> rehab systems track record for facilitating employment for >>>>>>>>>>>>> their >>>>>>>>>>>>> clients >>>>>>>>>>>>> is quite poor. >>>>>>>>>>>>> With a high percentage of unemployment among our clients. >>>>>>>>>>>>> Making, >>>>>>>>>>>>> speaking personally, your buying Jaws for personal use not >>>>>>>>>>>>> really >>>>>>>>>>>>> reflecting how the system would respond to an alternative >>>>>>>>>>>>> request. >>>>>>>>>>>>> Now if someone from organized rehab said, okay freedom >>>>>>>>>>>>> scientific, we >>>>>>>>>>>>> are >>>>>>>>>>>>> creating an employment program where our clients will train >>>>>>>>>>>>> in >>>>>>>>>>>>> Linux, >>>>>>>>>>>>> needing a solid screen reader solution for the system. We >>>>>>>>>>>>> will >>>>>>>>>>>>> give you >>>>>>>>>>>>> an >>>>>>>>>>>>> exclusive development contract for s millions to create the >>>>>>>>>>>>> tool. >>>>>>>>>>>>> Fs would likely say where do we sign? >>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>> On Sat, 13 Aug 2022, K0LNY_Glenn wrote: >>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>> True enough, but largely, rehab people typically use >>>>>>>>>>>>>> Windows >>>>>>>>>>>>>> at >>>>>>>>>>>>>> work, >>>>>>>>>>>>>> and >>>>>>>>>>>>>> probably at home, but they need to cater to the needs of >>>>>>>>>>>>>> the >>>>>>>>>>>>>> client. >>>>>>>>>>>>>> If a client used Linux, I doubt that any rehab counselor >>>>>>>>>>>>>> would >>>>>>>>>>>>>> advocate >>>>>>>>>>>>>> that >>>>>>>>>>>>>> the client switch to Windows, unless that was needed for a >>>>>>>>>>>>>> specific >>>>>>>>>>>>>> job. >>>>>>>>>>>>>> In Nebraska, we purchased Jaws much more for personal use >>>>>>>>>>>>>> than >>>>>>>>>>>>>> we did >>>>>>>>>>>>>> for >>>>>>>>>>>>>> work related situations. >>>>>>>>>>>>>> So if FS made a JFL, and people were using Linux, rehab >>>>>>>>>>>>>> would >>>>>>>>>>>>>> indeed >>>>>>>>>>>>>> purchase a JFL product. >>>>>>>>>>>>>> Glenn >>>>>>>>>>>>>> ----- Original Message ----- >>>>>>>>>>>>>> From: "Karen Lewellen" >>>>>>>>>>>>>> To: "K0LNY_Glenn" >>>>>>>>>>>>>> Cc: ; "Milan Zamazal" >>>>>>>>>>>>>> ; >>>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>> Sent: Saturday, August 13, 2022 3:01 PM >>>>>>>>>>>>>> Subject: Re: "Accessibility in Fedora Workstation" (fwd) >>>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>> there was an interesting discussion a month or so back on >>>>>>>>>>>>>> the >>>>>>>>>>>>>> blinux >>>>>>>>>>>>>> list >>>>>>>>>>>>>> about how long it took completing tasks in the gui as >>>>>>>>>>>>>> apposed >>>>>>>>>>>>>> to say >>>>>>>>>>>>>> command line, the comments were quite informative. >>>>>>>>>>>>>> Still, fs has never marketed largely to the end user. >>>>>>>>>>>>>> Instead >>>>>>>>>>>>>> they >>>>>>>>>>>>>> market >>>>>>>>>>>>>> to the American rehab community. >>>>>>>>>>>>>> how much market research has the rehab community done to >>>>>>>>>>>>>> support the >>>>>>>>>>>>>> need >>>>>>>>>>>>>> for choices? >>>>>>>>>>>>>> How many rehab counselors support training in Linux? >>>>>>>>>>>>>> one comment made by the subject of this thread about poor >>>>>>>>>>>>>> quality >>>>>>>>>>>>>> speech >>>>>>>>>>>>>> is a fine one...out of the box Linux has few speech >>>>>>>>>>>>>> choices. >>>>>>>>>>>>>> everyone >>>>>>>>>>>>>> brings their needs to the table there. >>>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>> if you want to get fs to care about Linux, you need to >>>>>>>>>>>>>> prove >>>>>>>>>>>>>> there is >>>>>>>>>>>>>> money for them there, from their main source of income. >>>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>> On Sat, 13 Aug 2022, K0LNY_Glenn wrote: >>>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Well since Orca seems to work on so many distros, I don't >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> know why >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> FS >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> would >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> not be able to do the same. >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> If Jaws users could switch into Linux, it would be a real >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> game >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> changer, >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> and >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> I think with lots more Blind Linux users, we would start >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> seeing >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> accessibility in Linux not being a second thought. >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Glenn >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> ----- Original Message ----- >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> From: "Karen Lewellen" >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> To: "K0LNY_Glenn" >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Cc: ; "Milan Zamazal" >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> ; >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Sent: Saturday, August 13, 2022 1:47 PM >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Subject: Re: "Accessibility in Fedora Workstation" (fwd) >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Well technically freedom scientific does not exist any >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> longer, being >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> bought >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> by another company. >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Still, I can respect why they, or nvda have not created >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> their >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> tools >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> for >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Linux. >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> That is because as I understand it, Linux is quite like >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> clay. You >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> can >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> mold a distribution into almost anything. there are >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> various >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> personifications of the system, all sorts of ways and >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> changes >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> and >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> options >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> for creativity. >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> however adaptive tools are often extensions of physical >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> characteristics, >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> hands, eyes, ears, brains, combinations of these. >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> To build solid assistive tools one must have a solid >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> foundation as >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> it >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> were. that is part of why there have needed to be so few >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Apple >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> efforts >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> at >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> inclusion, they created with, and then created in-house >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> adaptive >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> tools >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> for various populations that were built into the system. >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Although Microsoft did not bother until much later, in >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> theory >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> at >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> least, >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> the >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> consistency of windows is what makes it possible for >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> freedom >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> or the >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> former >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> gw micro or nvda to create something that can in theory >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> work. >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Floor for the furniture is somewhat solid. >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Just my thoughts, >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> On Sat, 13 Aug 2022, K0LNY_Glenn wrote: >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> I would like to see Freedom Scientific make a Jaws For >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Linux. >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> JFL >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> I'd certainly pay the yearly rental fee for it, and it >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> would bring >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> many >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> more >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> users into Linux. >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> FS could, with its resources, possibly make it more >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> robust >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> than >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Orca. >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Glenn >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> ----- Original Message ----- >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> From: "Milan Zamazal" >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> To: >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Cc: >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Sent: Saturday, August 13, 2022 12:08 PM >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Subject: Re: "Accessibility in Fedora Workstation" (fwd) >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> "KL" == Karen Lewellen >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> writes: >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> KL> What bothers me most are his lack of actual >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> qualifications, >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> and >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> KL> absolute dismissal of what he has not experienced..as >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> if >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> KL> he >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> KL> defines Linux usage for everyone. That attitude is >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> KL> dangerous, >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> KL> because he is educating those outside of the >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> KL> accessibility >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> KL> experiences, who will believe his ignorance is >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> factual. >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> KL> he >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> has >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> KL> to be expert, it is his job. >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Hi Karen, >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> I know Lukas personally and I admire his skills and >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> qualifications. >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> I >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> also know first hand that he is open to constructive >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> feedback and >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> I >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> believe he???Td be happy to be corrected about possible >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> technical >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> inaccuracies in the interview. It may be also a good >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> opportunity >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> to >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> find out what???Ts possibly missing in making anybody >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> better >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> informed. >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> As for ???oabsolute dismissal of what he has not >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> experienced?????, >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> what >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> reasonable free software alternatives to a less or more >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> standard >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> desktop >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> with Orca and a software synthesizer can you see for a >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> common >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> blind >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> user >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> who needs to use a fully working web browser, to read >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> and >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> process >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> text >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> documents, to be compatible with other computer users, >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> etc.? >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> And let???Ts be realistic. We celebrate every single >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> developer >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> hired >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> to >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> improve accessibility. This tells something about the >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> state of >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> the >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> matters. We cannot expect that a single person will fix >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> all the >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> kinds >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> of accessibility problems in all the environments. >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Lukas >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> works at >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> his >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> job focusing on certain areas currently seen there as >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> urgent ones >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> and I >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> appreciate this opportunity. Anybody else seeing a need >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> to >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> work >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> on >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> other areas is welcome to contribute to whatever sees >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> fit, >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> as I >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> do. >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Regards, >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Milan >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> >>> >>> >> _______________________________________________ >> Blinux-list mailing list >> Blinux-list at redhat.com >> https://listman.redhat.com/mailman/listinfo/blinux-list >> >> > > > -- > Scam victim? Tell your story at www.scam911.org/surviving-the-scam > Also check out brightstarsweb.com and mysitesbeenhacked.com > Jackie McBride > > _______________________________________________ > Blinux-list mailing list > Blinux-list at redhat.com > https://listman.redhat.com/mailman/listinfo/blinux-list >