"Accessibility in Fedora Workstation" (fwd)

"Accessibility in Fedora Workstation" (fwd)

[blinux-list]

there are people using Linux in the console daily who deserve equal 
access. 
Second, this individual's job is to make this platform accessible...which 
has never meant blindness exclusively.
Further this individual is no volunteer, he is being paid to have up to date 
information, not just about fedora, but for screen readers he did not even 
reference like Fenial <spelling>
He is a single individual, That he has not seen a hardware synthesizer,  due 
to age does not mean they do not exist.
  Is he correct that speakup default installs to a hardware synthesizer?
I cannot imagine that being true given the work on the program.
What bothers me most are his lack of actual qualifications, and absolute 
dismissal of what he has not experienced..as if he defines Linux usage for 
everyone.
That attitude is dangerous, because he is educating those outside of the 
accessibility experiences, who will believe his ignorance is factual.
he has to be expert, it is his job.



On Fri, 12 Aug 2022, Matt Campbell wrote:

> Hi Karen,
>
> I carefully read and fact-checked what Lukas wrote about Speakup. He was 
> incorrect to say that Fedora doesn't include the Speakup kernel module; the 
> stock Fedora kernel has included it for a couple of years now. However, 
> Fedora doesn't include espeakup, speechd-up, or the Speakup user-space tools 
> (e.g. speakupconf and talkwith). I also couldn't find up-to-date 
> documentation on how to use Speakup with Fedora, whether during installation 
> or afterward. Such documentation is readily available for Arch Linux, on the 
> Arch wiki. So practically speaking, his contrast between Speakup support in 
> Fedora and Arch is valid. It also doesn't surprise me that a blind person who 
> started using computers as a teenager in 2009 has never used a hardware 
> speech synthesizer, and it's undeniable that these devices are now rarely 
> used. So I don't believe he said anything that could be considered slander. 
> At worst, his knowledge about the status of Speakup in the Fedora kernel 
> configuration was out-of-date, and I'm inclined to let that go, because we 
> can't all be up-to-date about everything, especially when giving off-the-cuff 
> answers during an interview.
>
> More importantly, I see no reason to doubt Lukas's qualifications for the job 
> he was hired for, much less to conclude that he's merely a token blind 
> person. His personal open-source projects are available on his GitHub profile 
> <https://github.com/tyrylu?tab=repositories>. Most notably, his 
> feel-the-streets <https://github.com/tyrylu/feel-the-streets> project is an 
> accessible interface to OpenStreetMap. That project's combination of Python 
> and Rust, and its ability to run on both Windows and Linux, demonstrate the 
> tolerance for complexity that programmers have to have to make progress on 
> non-trivial real-world projects. I would want to hire him if I could. His 
> atspi2_utils <https://github.com/tyrylu/atspi2_utils> repository also 
> demonstrates familiarity with AT-SPI, the protocol that enables GUI 
> accessibility on Linux. So he seems well qualified for this job, and 
> obviously he took the initiative to get the job. I'm excited to see a young 
> blind programmer working full-time on Linux accessibility. He could bring 
> some fresh energy to this space that seemingly hasn't been there for a while. 
> I look forward to finding out what he achieves.
>
> Matt
>

"Accessibility in Fedora Workstation" (fwd)

[blinux-list]

speakup by default installs to a software synthesizer if one is present
like speechdispatcher.


On Fri, 12 Aug 2022, Linux for blind general discussion wrote:

> there are people using Linux in the console daily who deserve equal access.
> Second, this individual's job is to make this platform accessible...which has
> never meant blindness exclusively.
> Further this individual is no volunteer, he is being paid to have up to date
> information, not just about fedora, but for screen readers he did not even
> reference like Fenial <spelling>
> He is a single individual, That he has not seen a hardware synthesizer,  due
> to age does not mean they do not exist.
>  Is he correct that speakup default installs to a hardware synthesizer?
> I cannot imagine that being true given the work on the program.
> What bothers me most are his lack of actual qualifications, and absolute
> dismissal of what he has not experienced..as if he defines Linux usage for
> everyone.
> That attitude is dangerous, because he is educating those outside of the
> accessibility experiences, who will believe his ignorance is factual.
> he has to be expert, it is his job.
>
>
>
> On Fri, 12 Aug 2022, Matt Campbell wrote:
>
> > Hi Karen,
> >
> > I carefully read and fact-checked what Lukas wrote about Speakup. He was
> > incorrect to say that Fedora doesn't include the Speakup kernel module; the
> > stock Fedora kernel has included it for a couple of years now. However,
> > Fedora doesn't include espeakup, speechd-up, or the Speakup user-space tools
> > (e.g. speakupconf and talkwith). I also couldn't find up-to-date
> > documentation on how to use Speakup with Fedora, whether during installation
> > or afterward. Such documentation is readily available for Arch Linux, on the
> > Arch wiki. So practically speaking, his contrast between Speakup support in
> > Fedora and Arch is valid. It also doesn't surprise me that a blind person
> > who started using computers as a teenager in 2009 has never used a hardware
> > speech synthesizer, and it's undeniable that these devices are now rarely
> > used. So I don't believe he said anything that could be considered slander.
> > At worst, his knowledge about the status of Speakup in the Fedora kernel
> > configuration was out-of-date, and I'm inclined to let that go, because we
> > can't all be up-to-date about everything, especially when giving
> > off-the-cuff answers during an interview.
> >
> > More importantly, I see no reason to doubt Lukas's qualifications for the
> > job he was hired for, much less to conclude that he's merely a token blind
> > person. His personal open-source projects are available on his GitHub
> > profile <https://github.com/tyrylu?tab=repositories>. Most notably, his
> > feel-the-streets <https://github.com/tyrylu/feel-the-streets> project is an
> > accessible interface to OpenStreetMap. That project's combination of Python
> > and Rust, and its ability to run on both Windows and Linux, demonstrate the
> > tolerance for complexity that programmers have to have to make progress on
> > non-trivial real-world projects. I would want to hire him if I could. His
> > atspi2_utils <https://github.com/tyrylu/atspi2_utils> repository also
> > demonstrates familiarity with AT-SPI, the protocol that enables GUI
> > accessibility on Linux. So he seems well qualified for this job, and
> > obviously he took the initiative to get the job. I'm excited to see a young
> > blind programmer working full-time on Linux accessibility. He could bring
> > some fresh energy to this space that seemingly hasn't been there for a
> > while. I look forward to finding out what he achieves.
> >
> > Matt
> >
>
> _______________________________________________
> Blinux-list mailing list
> Blinux-list at redhat.com
> https://listman.redhat.com/mailman/listinfo/blinux-list
>
>
>

"Accessibility in Fedora Workstation" (fwd)

[blinux-list]

Somebody wrote:
>  Is he correct that speakup default installs to a hardware synthesizer?

It is correct that by itself, speakup (i.e. the piece inside the kernel)
can only driver hardware synthesizers. To get software synthesizers
working, one need to run them in userland and plug to speakup with
espeakup or speechd-up.

For information, he does very much welcome pointers and hints, so feel
free to send him anything you believe could help him, he'll be glad to
have a look.

Samuel

"Accessibility in Fedora Workstation" (fwd)

[blinux-list]

Yes Glen, I agree-and-I already asked at least  3times for N V D A for a Linux 
version, as it is already written in Python. They said no-and-they explained.
Chime

"Accessibility in Fedora Workstation" (fwd)

[blinux-list]

Well technically freedom scientific does not exist any longer, being bought 
by another company.
Still, I can respect why they, or nvda have not created their tools for 
Linux.
That is because as I understand it, Linux is  quite like clay. You can 
mold a distribution into almost anything. there are various 
personifications of the system, all sorts of ways and changes and options 
for creativity.
however adaptive tools are often extensions of physical characteristics, 
hands, eyes, ears, brains, combinations of these.
To build solid assistive tools one must have a solid  foundation as it 
were.  that is part of why there have needed to be so few Apple  efforts at 
inclusion, they  created  with, and then created in-house adaptive tools 
for various  populations that were built into the system.
Although Microsoft did not bother until much later, in theory at least, the 
consistency of windows is what makes it possible for freedom or the former 
gw  micro or nvda to create something that can in theory  work.
Floor for the furniture is somewhat solid.
Just my thoughts,



On Sat, 13 Aug 2022, K0LNY_Glenn wrote:

> I would like to see Freedom Scientific make a Jaws For Linux.
> JFL
> I'd certainly pay the yearly rental fee for it, and it would bring many more
> users into Linux.
> FS could, with its resources, possibly make it more robust than Orca.
>
> Glenn
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: "Milan Zamazal" <pdm at zamazal.org>
> To: <speakup at linux-speakup.org>
> Cc: <Blinux-list at redhat.com>
> Sent: Saturday, August 13, 2022 12:08 PM
> Subject: Re: "Accessibility in Fedora Workstation" (fwd)
>
>
>>>>>> "KL" == Karen Lewellen <klewellen at shellworld.net> writes:
>
>    KL> What bothers me most are his lack of actual qualifications, and
>    KL> absolute dismissal of what he has not experienced..as if he
>    KL> defines Linux usage for everyone.  That attitude is dangerous,
>    KL> because he is educating those outside of the accessibility
>    KL> experiences, who will believe his ignorance is factual.  he has
>    KL> to be expert, it is his job.
>
> Hi Karen,
>
> I know Lukas personally and I admire his skills and qualifications.  I
> also know first hand that he is open to constructive feedback and I
> believe he?d be happy to be corrected about possible technical
> inaccuracies in the interview.  It may be also a good opportunity to
> find out what?s possibly missing in making anybody better informed.
>
> As for ?absolute dismissal of what he has not experienced?, what
> reasonable free software alternatives to a less or more standard desktop
> with Orca and a software synthesizer can you see for a common blind user
> who needs to use a fully working web browser, to read and process text
> documents, to be compatible with other computer users, etc.?
>
> And let?s be realistic.  We celebrate every single developer hired to
> improve accessibility.  This tells something about the state of the
> matters.  We cannot expect that a single person will fix all the kinds
> of accessibility problems in all the environments.  Lukas works at his
> job focusing on certain areas currently seen there as urgent ones and I
> appreciate this opportunity.  Anybody else seeing a need to work on
> other areas is welcome to contribute to whatever sees fit, as I do.
>
> Regards,
> Milan
>
>
>
>

"Accessibility in Fedora Workstation" (fwd)

[blinux-list]

Jude DaShiell here, the Wufrug Group I think from Kuwait bought out FS.
By now, Wufrug Group may have sold FS to another corporation for all I
know.


On Sat, 13 Aug 2022, K0LNY_Glenn wrote:

> Well since Orca seems to work on so many distros, I don't know why FS would
> not be able to do the same.
> If Jaws users could switch into Linux, it would be a real game changer, and
> I think with lots more Blind Linux users, we would start seeing
> accessibility in Linux not being a second thought.
> Glenn
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: "Karen Lewellen" <klewellen at shellworld.net>
> To: "K0LNY_Glenn" <glenn at ervin.email>
> Cc: <speakup at linux-speakup.org>; "Milan Zamazal" <pdm at zamazal.org>;
> <Blinux-list at redhat.com>
> Sent: Saturday, August 13, 2022 1:47 PM
> Subject: Re: "Accessibility in Fedora Workstation" (fwd)
>
>
> Well technically freedom scientific does not exist any longer, being bought
> by another company.
> Still, I can respect why they, or nvda have not created their tools for
> Linux.
> That is because as I understand it, Linux is  quite like clay. You can
> mold a distribution into almost anything. there are various
> personifications of the system, all sorts of ways and changes and options
> for creativity.
> however adaptive tools are often extensions of physical characteristics,
> hands, eyes, ears, brains, combinations of these.
> To build solid assistive tools one must have a solid  foundation as it
> were.  that is part of why there have needed to be so few Apple  efforts at
> inclusion, they  created  with, and then created in-house adaptive tools
> for various  populations that were built into the system.
> Although Microsoft did not bother until much later, in theory at least, the
> consistency of windows is what makes it possible for freedom or the former
> gw  micro or nvda to create something that can in theory  work.
> Floor for the furniture is somewhat solid.
> Just my thoughts,
>
>
>
> On Sat, 13 Aug 2022, K0LNY_Glenn wrote:
>
> > I would like to see Freedom Scientific make a Jaws For Linux.
> > JFL
> > I'd certainly pay the yearly rental fee for it, and it would bring many
> > more
> > users into Linux.
> > FS could, with its resources, possibly make it more robust than Orca.
> >
> > Glenn
> > ----- Original Message -----
> > From: "Milan Zamazal" <pdm at zamazal.org>
> > To: <speakup at linux-speakup.org>
> > Cc: <Blinux-list at redhat.com>
> > Sent: Saturday, August 13, 2022 12:08 PM
> > Subject: Re: "Accessibility in Fedora Workstation" (fwd)
> >
> >
> >>>>>> "KL" == Karen Lewellen <klewellen at shellworld.net> writes:
> >
> >    KL> What bothers me most are his lack of actual qualifications, and
> >    KL> absolute dismissal of what he has not experienced..as if he
> >    KL> defines Linux usage for everyone.  That attitude is dangerous,
> >    KL> because he is educating those outside of the accessibility
> >    KL> experiences, who will believe his ignorance is factual.  he has
> >    KL> to be expert, it is his job.
> >
> > Hi Karen,
> >
> > I know Lukas personally and I admire his skills and qualifications.  I
> > also know first hand that he is open to constructive feedback and I
> > believe he?d be happy to be corrected about possible technical
> > inaccuracies in the interview.  It may be also a good opportunity to
> > find out what?s possibly missing in making anybody better informed.
> >
> > As for ?absolute dismissal of what he has not experienced?, what
> > reasonable free software alternatives to a less or more standard desktop
> > with Orca and a software synthesizer can you see for a common blind user
> > who needs to use a fully working web browser, to read and process text
> > documents, to be compatible with other computer users, etc.?
> >
> > And let?s be realistic.  We celebrate every single developer hired to
> > improve accessibility.  This tells something about the state of the
> > matters.  We cannot expect that a single person will fix all the kinds
> > of accessibility problems in all the environments.  Lukas works at his
> > job focusing on certain areas currently seen there as urgent ones and I
> > appreciate this opportunity.  Anybody else seeing a need to work on
> > other areas is welcome to contribute to whatever sees fit, as I do.
> >
> > Regards,
> > Milan
> >
> >
> >
> >
>
>
>

"Accessibility in Fedora Workstation" (fwd)

[blinux-list]

there was an interesting discussion a month or so back on the blinux list 
about how long it took completing tasks in the gui as apposed to say 
command line,  the comments were quite informative.
Still, fs has never marketed largely to the end user. Instead they market 
to the American rehab community.
how much market research has  the rehab community done to support the need 
for choices?
How many rehab counselors support  training in Linux?
one comment made by the subject of this thread about poor quality speech 
is a fine one...out of the box Linux has few speech choices.  everyone 
brings their needs to the table there.

if you want to get fs to care about Linux, you  need to prove there is 
money for  them there, from their main source of income.



On Sat, 13 Aug 2022, K0LNY_Glenn wrote:

> Well since Orca seems to work on so many distros, I don't know why FS would
> not be able to do the same.
> If Jaws users could switch into Linux, it would be a real game changer, and
> I think with lots more Blind Linux users, we would start seeing
> accessibility in Linux not being a second thought.
> Glenn
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: "Karen Lewellen" <klewellen at shellworld.net>
> To: "K0LNY_Glenn" <glenn at ervin.email>
> Cc: <speakup at linux-speakup.org>; "Milan Zamazal" <pdm at zamazal.org>;
> <Blinux-list at redhat.com>
> Sent: Saturday, August 13, 2022 1:47 PM
> Subject: Re: "Accessibility in Fedora Workstation" (fwd)
>
>
> Well technically freedom scientific does not exist any longer, being bought
> by another company.
> Still, I can respect why they, or nvda have not created their tools for
> Linux.
> That is because as I understand it, Linux is  quite like clay. You can
> mold a distribution into almost anything. there are various
> personifications of the system, all sorts of ways and changes and options
> for creativity.
> however adaptive tools are often extensions of physical characteristics,
> hands, eyes, ears, brains, combinations of these.
> To build solid assistive tools one must have a solid  foundation as it
> were.  that is part of why there have needed to be so few Apple  efforts at
> inclusion, they  created  with, and then created in-house adaptive tools
> for various  populations that were built into the system.
> Although Microsoft did not bother until much later, in theory at least, the
> consistency of windows is what makes it possible for freedom or the former
> gw  micro or nvda to create something that can in theory  work.
> Floor for the furniture is somewhat solid.
> Just my thoughts,
>
>
>
> On Sat, 13 Aug 2022, K0LNY_Glenn wrote:
>
>> I would like to see Freedom Scientific make a Jaws For Linux.
>> JFL
>> I'd certainly pay the yearly rental fee for it, and it would bring many
>> more
>> users into Linux.
>> FS could, with its resources, possibly make it more robust than Orca.
>>
>> Glenn
>> ----- Original Message -----
>> From: "Milan Zamazal" <pdm at zamazal.org>
>> To: <speakup at linux-speakup.org>
>> Cc: <Blinux-list at redhat.com>
>> Sent: Saturday, August 13, 2022 12:08 PM
>> Subject: Re: "Accessibility in Fedora Workstation" (fwd)
>>
>>
>>>>>>> "KL" == Karen Lewellen <klewellen at shellworld.net> writes:
>>
>>    KL> What bothers me most are his lack of actual qualifications, and
>>    KL> absolute dismissal of what he has not experienced..as if he
>>    KL> defines Linux usage for everyone.  That attitude is dangerous,
>>    KL> because he is educating those outside of the accessibility
>>    KL> experiences, who will believe his ignorance is factual.  he has
>>    KL> to be expert, it is his job.
>>
>> Hi Karen,
>>
>> I know Lukas personally and I admire his skills and qualifications.  I
>> also know first hand that he is open to constructive feedback and I
>> believe he?d be happy to be corrected about possible technical
>> inaccuracies in the interview.  It may be also a good opportunity to
>> find out what?s possibly missing in making anybody better informed.
>>
>> As for ?absolute dismissal of what he has not experienced?, what
>> reasonable free software alternatives to a less or more standard desktop
>> with Orca and a software synthesizer can you see for a common blind user
>> who needs to use a fully working web browser, to read and process text
>> documents, to be compatible with other computer users, etc.?
>>
>> And let?s be realistic.  We celebrate every single developer hired to
>> improve accessibility.  This tells something about the state of the
>> matters.  We cannot expect that a single person will fix all the kinds
>> of accessibility problems in all the environments.  Lukas works at his
>> job focusing on certain areas currently seen there as urgent ones and I
>> appreciate this opportunity.  Anybody else seeing a need to work on
>> other areas is welcome to contribute to whatever sees fit, as I do.
>>
>> Regards,
>> Milan
>>
>>
>>
>>
>
>

"Accessibility in Fedora Workstation" (fwd)

[blinux-list]

I used JAWS before I used Orca.? I had to learn some new things, but not 
many, so I had no reason to think we needed the makers of JAWS (whatever 
name they now use) to port it to Linux.? It also seems to me a strange 
combination, Linux distributions containing solely or primarily free 
software (almost always free of charge as well as the "four freedoms" 
and JAWS, which was and remains proprietary.? I have no idea what it 
would cost that company to create a JAWS that works seamlessly with the 
Linux kernel and the software running under it, but I so far have no 
reason for wanting to pay for that.


The one thing I like about JAWS when I need to use our Windows machine 
is Eloquence.? It's the main reason my wife gives me for not wanting to 
move to Linux.? I've always assumed that somebody with the time, tools, 
and knowledge, or some group, could create free software voices as good 
as Eloquence.? Maybe I should even try to be such a programmer, but that 
will not be soon.? In the meantime, I guess, there is Voxin, which I 
think is not free software, in terms of freedom, but is cheaper than JAWS.


Al


On 8/13/22 16:01, Linux for blind general discussion wrote:
> there was an interesting discussion a month or so back on the blinux 
> list about how long it took completing tasks in the gui as apposed to 
> say command line,? the comments were quite informative.
> Still, fs has never marketed largely to the end user. Instead they 
> market to the American rehab community.
> how much market research has? the rehab community done to support the 
> need for choices?
> How many rehab counselors support? training in Linux?
> one comment made by the subject of this thread about poor quality 
> speech is a fine one...out of the box Linux has few speech choices.? 
> everyone brings their needs to the table there.
>
> if you want to get fs to care about Linux, you? need to prove there is 
> money for? them there, from their main source of income.
>
>
>
> On Sat, 13 Aug 2022, K0LNY_Glenn wrote:
>
>> Well since Orca seems to work on so many distros, I don't know why FS 
>> would
>> not be able to do the same.
>> If Jaws users could switch into Linux, it would be a real game 
>> changer, and
>> I think with lots more Blind Linux users, we would start seeing
>> accessibility in Linux not being a second thought.
>> Glenn
>> ----- Original Message -----
>> From: "Karen Lewellen" <klewellen at shellworld.net>
>> To: "K0LNY_Glenn" <glenn at ervin.email>
>> Cc: <speakup at linux-speakup.org>; "Milan Zamazal" <pdm at zamazal.org>;
>> <Blinux-list at redhat.com>
>> Sent: Saturday, August 13, 2022 1:47 PM
>> Subject: Re: "Accessibility in Fedora Workstation" (fwd)
>>
>>
>> Well technically freedom scientific does not exist any longer, being 
>> bought
>> by another company.
>> Still, I can respect why they, or nvda have not created their tools for
>> Linux.
>> That is because as I understand it, Linux is? quite like clay. You can
>> mold a distribution into almost anything. there are various
>> personifications of the system, all sorts of ways and changes and 
>> options
>> for creativity.
>> however adaptive tools are often extensions of physical characteristics,
>> hands, eyes, ears, brains, combinations of these.
>> To build solid assistive tools one must have a solid? foundation as it
>> were.? that is part of why there have needed to be so few Apple 
>> efforts at
>> inclusion, they? created? with, and then created in-house adaptive tools
>> for various? populations that were built into the system.
>> Although Microsoft did not bother until much later, in theory at 
>> least, the
>> consistency of windows is what makes it possible for freedom or the 
>> former
>> gw? micro or nvda to create something that can in theory? work.
>> Floor for the furniture is somewhat solid.
>> Just my thoughts,
>>
>>
>>
>> On Sat, 13 Aug 2022, K0LNY_Glenn wrote:
>>
>>> I would like to see Freedom Scientific make a Jaws For Linux.
>>> JFL
>>> I'd certainly pay the yearly rental fee for it, and it would bring many
>>> more
>>> users into Linux.
>>> FS could, with its resources, possibly make it more robust than Orca.
>>>
>>> Glenn
>>> ----- Original Message -----
>>> From: "Milan Zamazal" <pdm at zamazal.org>
>>> To: <speakup at linux-speakup.org>
>>> Cc: <Blinux-list at redhat.com>
>>> Sent: Saturday, August 13, 2022 12:08 PM
>>> Subject: Re: "Accessibility in Fedora Workstation" (fwd)
>>>
>>>
>>>>>>>> "KL" == Karen Lewellen <klewellen at shellworld.net> writes:
>>>
>>> ?? KL> What bothers me most are his lack of actual qualifications, and
>>> ?? KL> absolute dismissal of what he has not experienced..as if he
>>> ?? KL> defines Linux usage for everyone.? That attitude is dangerous,
>>> ?? KL> because he is educating those outside of the accessibility
>>> ?? KL> experiences, who will believe his ignorance is factual.? he has
>>> ?? KL> to be expert, it is his job.
>>>
>>> Hi Karen,
>>>
>>> I know Lukas personally and I admire his skills and qualifications.? I
>>> also know first hand that he is open to constructive feedback and I
>>> believe he?d be happy to be corrected about possible technical
>>> inaccuracies in the interview.? It may be also a good opportunity to
>>> find out what?s possibly missing in making anybody better informed.
>>>
>>> As for ?absolute dismissal of what he has not experienced?, what
>>> reasonable free software alternatives to a less or more standard 
>>> desktop
>>> with Orca and a software synthesizer can you see for a common blind 
>>> user
>>> who needs to use a fully working web browser, to read and process text
>>> documents, to be compatible with other computer users, etc.?
>>>
>>> And let?s be realistic.? We celebrate every single developer hired to
>>> improve accessibility.? This tells something about the state of the
>>> matters.? We cannot expect that a single person will fix all the kinds
>>> of accessibility problems in all the environments.? Lukas works at his
>>> job focusing on certain areas currently seen there as urgent ones and I
>>> appreciate this opportunity.? Anybody else seeing a need to work on
>>> other areas is welcome to contribute to whatever sees fit, as I do.
>>>
>>> Regards,
>>> Milan
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>
>>
> _______________________________________________
> Blinux-list mailing list
> Blinux-list at redhat.com
> https://listman.redhat.com/mailman/listinfo/blinux-list

"Accessibility in Fedora Workstation" (fwd)

[blinux-list]

Well, Al, Voxin is useing I B M T T S which is exactly the same as Eliquence. 
Also, unrelated, through much of this discussion I am getting 2 duplicate 
messages for each comment.
I also wanted to comment, in my situation back around 2000 working at a phone 
company, I was still happily in DOS. I almost convinced them to let me get 
company mail in Pine. Before that happened, they changed their mind. Then even 
worse the company brought in a hard-nose who took away my DOS machine for 
win98. The company did actually have Linux courses in their learning system. An 
only item which rehab got me was a Brailler, as where the company paid for 
folks to train me or write windows scripts.
Chime

"Accessibility in Fedora Workstation" (fwd)

[blinux-list]

The only problem with voxin is that it uses incredibly ancient libraries which may stop working any day now. Sigh.

----- Original Message -----
From: Linux for blind general discussion <blinux-list at redhat.com>
To: Linux for blind general discussion <blinux-list at redhat.com>
Date: Sat, 13 Aug 2022 19:29:22 -0400
Subject: Re: "Accessibility in Fedora Workstation" (fwd)

> I used JAWS before I used Orca.? I had to learn some new things, but not
many, so I had no reason to think we needed the makers of JAWS (whatever
name they now use) to port it to Linux.? It also seems to me a strange
combination, Linux distributions containing solely or primarily free
software (almost always free of charge as well as the "four freedoms"
and JAWS, which was and remains proprietary.? I have no idea what it
would cost that company to create a JAWS that works seamlessly with the
Linux kernel and the software running under it, but I so far have no
reason for wanting to pay for that.


The one thing I like about JAWS when I need to use our Windows machine
is Eloquence.? It's the main reason my wife gives me for not wanting to
move to Linux.? I've always assumed that somebody with the time, tools,
and knowledge, or some group, could create free software voices as good
as Eloquence.? Maybe I should even try to be such a programmer, but that
will not be soon.? In the meantime, I guess, there is Voxin, which I
think is not free software, in terms of freedom, but is cheaper than JAWS.


Al


On 8/13/22 16:01, Linux for blind general discussion wrote:
> there was an interesting discussion a month or so back on the blinux
> list about how long it took completing tasks in the gui as apposed to
> say command line,? the comments were quite informative.
> Still, fs has never marketed largely to the end user. Instead they
> market to the American rehab community.
> how much market research has? the rehab community done to support the
> need for choices?
> How many rehab counselors support? training in Linux?
> one comment made by the subject of this thread about poor quality
> speech is a fine one...out of the box Linux has few speech choices.?
> everyone brings their needs to the table there.
>
> if you want to get fs to care about Linux, you? need to prove there is
> money for? them there, from their main source of income.
>
>
>
> On Sat, 13 Aug 2022, K0LNY_Glenn wrote:
>
>> Well since Orca seems to work on so many distros, I don't know why FS
>> would
>> not be able to do the same.
>> If Jaws users could switch into Linux, it would be a real game
>> changer, and
>> I think with lots more Blind Linux users, we would start seeing
>> accessibility in Linux not being a second thought.
>> Glenn
>> ----- Original Message -----
>> From: "Karen Lewellen" <klewellen at shellworld.net>
>> To: "K0LNY_Glenn" <glenn at ervin.email>
>> Cc: <speakup at linux-speakup.org>; "Milan Zamazal" <pdm at zamazal.org>;
>> <Blinux-list at redhat.com>
>> Sent: Saturday, August 13, 2022 1:47 PM
>> Subject: Re: "Accessibility in Fedora Workstation" (fwd)
>>
>>
>> Well technically freedom scientific does not exist any longer, being
>> bought
>> by another company.
>> Still, I can respect why they, or nvda have not created their tools for
>> Linux.
>> That is because as I understand it, Linux is? quite like clay. You can
>> mold a distribution into almost anything. there are various
>> personifications of the system, all sorts of ways and changes and
>> options
>> for creativity.
>> however adaptive tools are often extensions of physical characteristics,
>> hands, eyes, ears, brains, combinations of these.
>> To build solid assistive tools one must have a solid? foundation as it
>> were.? that is part of why there have needed to be so few Apple
>> efforts at
>> inclusion, they? created? with, and then created in-house adaptive tools
>> for various? populations that were built into the system.
>> Although Microsoft did not bother until much later, in theory at
>> least, the
>> consistency of windows is what makes it possible for freedom or the
>> former
>> gw? micro or nvda to create something that can in theory? work.
>> Floor for the furniture is somewhat solid.
>> Just my thoughts,
>>
>>
>>
>> On Sat, 13 Aug 2022, K0LNY_Glenn wrote:
>>
>>> I would like to see Freedom Scientific make a Jaws For Linux.
>>> JFL
>>> I'd certainly pay the yearly rental fee for it, and it would bring many
>>> more
>>> users into Linux.
>>> FS could, with its resources, possibly make it more robust than Orca.
>>>
>>> Glenn
>>> ----- Original Message -----
>>> From: "Milan Zamazal" <pdm at zamazal.org>
>>> To: <speakup at linux-speakup.org>
>>> Cc: <Blinux-list at redhat.com>
>>> Sent: Saturday, August 13, 2022 12:08 PM
>>> Subject: Re: "Accessibility in Fedora Workstation" (fwd)
>>>
>>>
>>>>>>>> "KL" == Karen Lewellen <klewellen at shellworld.net> writes:
>>>
>>> ?? KL> What bothers me most are his lack of actual qualifications, and
>>> ?? KL> absolute dismissal of what he has not experienced..as if he
>>> ?? KL> defines Linux usage for everyone.? That attitude is dangerous,
>>> ?? KL> because he is educating those outside of the accessibility
>>> ?? KL> experiences, who will believe his ignorance is factual.? he has
>>> ?? KL> to be expert, it is his job.
>>>
>>> Hi Karen,
>>>
>>> I know Lukas personally and I admire his skills and qualifications.? I
>>> also know first hand that he is open to constructive feedback and I
>>> believe he?d be happy to be corrected about possible technical
>>> inaccuracies in the interview.? It may be also a good opportunity to
>>> find out what?s possibly missing in making anybody better informed.
>>>
>>> As for ?absolute dismissal of what he has not experienced?, what
>>> reasonable free software alternatives to a less or more standard
>>> desktop
>>> with Orca and a software synthesizer can you see for a common blind
>>> user
>>> who needs to use a fully working web browser, to read and process text
>>> documents, to be compatible with other computer users, etc.?
>>>
>>> And let?s be realistic.? We celebrate every single developer hired to
>>> improve accessibility.? This tells something about the state of the
>>> matters.? We cannot expect that a single person will fix all the kinds
>>> of accessibility problems in all the environments.? Lukas works at his
>>> job focusing on certain areas currently seen there as urgent ones and I
>>> appreciate this opportunity.? Anybody else seeing a need to work on
>>> other areas is welcome to contribute to whatever sees fit, as I do.
>>>
>>> Regards,
>>> Milan
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>
>>
> _______________________________________________
> Blinux-list mailing list
> Blinux-list at redhat.com
> https://listman.redhat.com/mailman/listinfo/blinux-list

_______________________________________________
Blinux-list mailing list
Blinux-list at redhat.com
https://listman.redhat.com/mailman/listinfo/blinux-list

"Accessibility in Fedora Workstation" (fwd)

[blinux-list]

And how often do clients get a choice about their tools?
Support this with objective documentation, as this is your professional 
industry, if memory serves.
I recall on more than one occasion being provided with documentation where 
jaws was the only screen reader choice a client was given.
Know of at least one professional who turned to Linux because they never 
wanted to use Jaws or windows again.
since rehab holds the money strings for fs, it is up to the counselors to 
prove, with numbers, that it is worth  the financial investment  for 
freedom scientific.
My understanding is that nvda came into being because clients wanted more 
choices  than Jaws, and counselors were resistant.



On Sat, 13 Aug 2022, K0LNY_Glenn wrote:

> True enough, but largely, rehab people typically use Windows at work, and
> probably at home, but they need to cater to the needs of the client.
> If a client used Linux, I doubt that any rehab counselor would advocate that
> the client switch to Windows, unless that was needed for a specific job.
> In Nebraska, we purchased Jaws much more for personal use than we did for
> work related situations.
> So if FS made a JFL, and people were using Linux, rehab would indeed
> purchase a JFL product.
> Glenn
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: "Karen Lewellen" <klewellen at shellworld.net>
> To: "K0LNY_Glenn" <glenn at ervin.email>
> Cc: <speakup at linux-speakup.org>; "Milan Zamazal" <pdm at zamazal.org>;
> <Blinux-list at redhat.com>
> Sent: Saturday, August 13, 2022 3:01 PM
> Subject: Re: "Accessibility in Fedora Workstation" (fwd)
>
>
> there was an interesting discussion a month or so back on the blinux list
> about how long it took completing tasks in the gui as apposed to say
> command line,  the comments were quite informative.
> Still, fs has never marketed largely to the end user. Instead they market
> to the American rehab community.
> how much market research has  the rehab community done to support the need
> for choices?
> How many rehab counselors support  training in Linux?
> one comment made by the subject of this thread about poor quality speech
> is a fine one...out of the box Linux has few speech choices.  everyone
> brings their needs to the table there.
>
> if you want to get fs to care about Linux, you  need to prove there is
> money for  them there, from their main source of income.
>
>
>
> On Sat, 13 Aug 2022, K0LNY_Glenn wrote:
>
>> Well since Orca seems to work on so many distros, I don't know why FS
>> would
>> not be able to do the same.
>> If Jaws users could switch into Linux, it would be a real game changer,
>> and
>> I think with lots more Blind Linux users, we would start seeing
>> accessibility in Linux not being a second thought.
>> Glenn
>> ----- Original Message -----
>> From: "Karen Lewellen" <klewellen at shellworld.net>
>> To: "K0LNY_Glenn" <glenn at ervin.email>
>> Cc: <speakup at linux-speakup.org>; "Milan Zamazal" <pdm at zamazal.org>;
>> <Blinux-list at redhat.com>
>> Sent: Saturday, August 13, 2022 1:47 PM
>> Subject: Re: "Accessibility in Fedora Workstation" (fwd)
>>
>>
>> Well technically freedom scientific does not exist any longer, being
>> bought
>> by another company.
>> Still, I can respect why they, or nvda have not created their tools for
>> Linux.
>> That is because as I understand it, Linux is  quite like clay. You can
>> mold a distribution into almost anything. there are various
>> personifications of the system, all sorts of ways and changes and options
>> for creativity.
>> however adaptive tools are often extensions of physical characteristics,
>> hands, eyes, ears, brains, combinations of these.
>> To build solid assistive tools one must have a solid  foundation as it
>> were.  that is part of why there have needed to be so few Apple  efforts
>> at
>> inclusion, they  created  with, and then created in-house adaptive tools
>> for various  populations that were built into the system.
>> Although Microsoft did not bother until much later, in theory at least,
>> the
>> consistency of windows is what makes it possible for freedom or the former
>> gw  micro or nvda to create something that can in theory  work.
>> Floor for the furniture is somewhat solid.
>> Just my thoughts,
>>
>>
>>
>> On Sat, 13 Aug 2022, K0LNY_Glenn wrote:
>>
>>> I would like to see Freedom Scientific make a Jaws For Linux.
>>> JFL
>>> I'd certainly pay the yearly rental fee for it, and it would bring many
>>> more
>>> users into Linux.
>>> FS could, with its resources, possibly make it more robust than Orca.
>>>
>>> Glenn
>>> ----- Original Message -----
>>> From: "Milan Zamazal" <pdm at zamazal.org>
>>> To: <speakup at linux-speakup.org>
>>> Cc: <Blinux-list at redhat.com>
>>> Sent: Saturday, August 13, 2022 12:08 PM
>>> Subject: Re: "Accessibility in Fedora Workstation" (fwd)
>>>
>>>
>>>>>>>> "KL" == Karen Lewellen <klewellen at shellworld.net> writes:
>>>
>>>    KL> What bothers me most are his lack of actual qualifications, and
>>>    KL> absolute dismissal of what he has not experienced..as if he
>>>    KL> defines Linux usage for everyone.  That attitude is dangerous,
>>>    KL> because he is educating those outside of the accessibility
>>>    KL> experiences, who will believe his ignorance is factual.  he has
>>>    KL> to be expert, it is his job.
>>>
>>> Hi Karen,
>>>
>>> I know Lukas personally and I admire his skills and qualifications.  I
>>> also know first hand that he is open to constructive feedback and I
>>> believe he?d be happy to be corrected about possible technical
>>> inaccuracies in the interview.  It may be also a good opportunity to
>>> find out what?s possibly missing in making anybody better informed.
>>>
>>> As for ?absolute dismissal of what he has not experienced?, what
>>> reasonable free software alternatives to a less or more standard desktop
>>> with Orca and a software synthesizer can you see for a common blind user
>>> who needs to use a fully working web browser, to read and process text
>>> documents, to be compatible with other computer users, etc.?
>>>
>>> And let?s be realistic.  We celebrate every single developer hired to
>>> improve accessibility.  This tells something about the state of the
>>> matters.  We cannot expect that a single person will fix all the kinds
>>> of accessibility problems in all the environments.  Lukas works at his
>>> job focusing on certain areas currently seen there as urgent ones and I
>>> appreciate this opportunity.  Anybody else seeing a need to work on
>>> other areas is welcome to contribute to whatever sees fit, as I do.
>>>
>>> Regards,
>>> Milan
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>
>>
>
>
>

"Accessibility in Fedora Workstation" (fwd)

[blinux-list]

nvda came into existence due to the nosebleed pricing of jaws.  Apparently
people who worked in an office with jaws couldn't install it on their home
computers in many cases and nvda made it possible for those home computers
to start talking better than narrator would allow in the 2000's.


On Sat, 13 Aug 2022, Karen Lewellen wrote:

> And how often do clients get a choice about their tools?
> Support this with objective documentation, as this is your professional
> industry, if memory serves.
> I recall on more than one occasion being provided with documentation where
> jaws was the only screen reader choice a client was given.
> Know of at least one professional who turned to Linux because they never
> wanted to use Jaws or windows again.
> since rehab holds the money strings for fs, it is up to the counselors to
> prove, with numbers, that it is worth  the financial investment  for freedom
> scientific.
> My understanding is that nvda came into being because clients wanted more
> choices  than Jaws, and counselors were resistant.
>
>
>
> On Sat, 13 Aug 2022, K0LNY_Glenn wrote:
>
> > True enough, but largely, rehab people typically use Windows at work, and
> > probably at home, but they need to cater to the needs of the client.
> > If a client used Linux, I doubt that any rehab counselor would advocate that
> > the client switch to Windows, unless that was needed for a specific job.
> > In Nebraska, we purchased Jaws much more for personal use than we did for
> > work related situations.
> > So if FS made a JFL, and people were using Linux, rehab would indeed
> > purchase a JFL product.
> > Glenn
> > ----- Original Message -----
> > From: "Karen Lewellen" <klewellen at shellworld.net>
> > To: "K0LNY_Glenn" <glenn at ervin.email>
> > Cc: <speakup at linux-speakup.org>; "Milan Zamazal" <pdm at zamazal.org>;
> > <Blinux-list at redhat.com>
> > Sent: Saturday, August 13, 2022 3:01 PM
> > Subject: Re: "Accessibility in Fedora Workstation" (fwd)
> >
> >
> > there was an interesting discussion a month or so back on the blinux list
> > about how long it took completing tasks in the gui as apposed to say
> > command line,  the comments were quite informative.
> > Still, fs has never marketed largely to the end user. Instead they market
> > to the American rehab community.
> > how much market research has  the rehab community done to support the need
> > for choices?
> > How many rehab counselors support  training in Linux?
> > one comment made by the subject of this thread about poor quality speech
> > is a fine one...out of the box Linux has few speech choices.  everyone
> > brings their needs to the table there.
> >
> > if you want to get fs to care about Linux, you  need to prove there is
> > money for  them there, from their main source of income.
> >
> >
> >
> > On Sat, 13 Aug 2022, K0LNY_Glenn wrote:
> >
> >> Well since Orca seems to work on so many distros, I don't know why FS
> >> would
> >> not be able to do the same.
> >> If Jaws users could switch into Linux, it would be a real game changer,
> >> and
> >> I think with lots more Blind Linux users, we would start seeing
> >> accessibility in Linux not being a second thought.
> >> Glenn
> >> ----- Original Message -----
> >> From: "Karen Lewellen" <klewellen at shellworld.net>
> >> To: "K0LNY_Glenn" <glenn at ervin.email>
> >> Cc: <speakup at linux-speakup.org>; "Milan Zamazal" <pdm at zamazal.org>;
> >> <Blinux-list at redhat.com>
> >> Sent: Saturday, August 13, 2022 1:47 PM
> >> Subject: Re: "Accessibility in Fedora Workstation" (fwd)
> >>
> >>
> >> Well technically freedom scientific does not exist any longer, being
> >> bought
> >> by another company.
> >> Still, I can respect why they, or nvda have not created their tools for
> >> Linux.
> >> That is because as I understand it, Linux is  quite like clay. You can
> >> mold a distribution into almost anything. there are various
> >> personifications of the system, all sorts of ways and changes and options
> >> for creativity.
> >> however adaptive tools are often extensions of physical characteristics,
> >> hands, eyes, ears, brains, combinations of these.
> >> To build solid assistive tools one must have a solid  foundation as it
> >> were.  that is part of why there have needed to be so few Apple  efforts
> >> at
> >> inclusion, they  created  with, and then created in-house adaptive tools
> >> for various  populations that were built into the system.
> >> Although Microsoft did not bother until much later, in theory at least,
> >> the
> >> consistency of windows is what makes it possible for freedom or the former
> >> gw  micro or nvda to create something that can in theory  work.
> >> Floor for the furniture is somewhat solid.
> >> Just my thoughts,
> >>
> >>
> >>
> >> On Sat, 13 Aug 2022, K0LNY_Glenn wrote:
> >>
> >>> I would like to see Freedom Scientific make a Jaws For Linux.
> >>> JFL
> >>> I'd certainly pay the yearly rental fee for it, and it would bring many
> >>> more
> >>> users into Linux.
> >>> FS could, with its resources, possibly make it more robust than Orca.
> >>>
> >>> Glenn
> >>> ----- Original Message -----
> >>> From: "Milan Zamazal" <pdm at zamazal.org>
> >>> To: <speakup at linux-speakup.org>
> >>> Cc: <Blinux-list at redhat.com>
> >>> Sent: Saturday, August 13, 2022 12:08 PM
> >>> Subject: Re: "Accessibility in Fedora Workstation" (fwd)
> >>>
> >>>
> >>>>>>>> "KL" == Karen Lewellen <klewellen at shellworld.net> writes:
> >>>
> >>>    KL> What bothers me most are his lack of actual qualifications, and
> >>>    KL> absolute dismissal of what he has not experienced..as if he
> >>>    KL> defines Linux usage for everyone.  That attitude is dangerous,
> >>>    KL> because he is educating those outside of the accessibility
> >>>    KL> experiences, who will believe his ignorance is factual.  he has
> >>>    KL> to be expert, it is his job.
> >>>
> >>> Hi Karen,
> >>>
> >>> I know Lukas personally and I admire his skills and qualifications.  I
> >>> also know first hand that he is open to constructive feedback and I
> >>> believe he?d be happy to be corrected about possible technical
> >>> inaccuracies in the interview.  It may be also a good opportunity to
> >>> find out what?s possibly missing in making anybody better informed.
> >>>
> >>> As for ?absolute dismissal of what he has not experienced?, what
> >>> reasonable free software alternatives to a less or more standard desktop
> >>> with Orca and a software synthesizer can you see for a common blind user
> >>> who needs to use a fully working web browser, to read and process text
> >>> documents, to be compatible with other computer users, etc.?
> >>>
> >>> And let?s be realistic.  We celebrate every single developer hired to
> >>> improve accessibility.  This tells something about the state of the
> >>> matters.  We cannot expect that a single person will fix all the kinds
> >>> of accessibility problems in all the environments.  Lukas works at his
> >>> job focusing on certain areas currently seen there as urgent ones and I
> >>> appreciate this opportunity.  Anybody else seeing a need to work on
> >>> other areas is welcome to contribute to whatever sees fit, as I do.
> >>>
> >>> Regards,
> >>> Milan
> >>>
> >>>
> >>>
> >>>
> >>
> >>
> >
> >
> >
>

"Accessibility in Fedora Workstation" (fwd)

[blinux-list]

That is not surprising.  Great example of innovative thinking.
However, for all the Linux energy, there are almost no efforts to say 
raise  the Linux profile for  say website testing and the like.
There are still companies who expect one to be using jaws, and that one 
need not test in Linux at all.



On Sat, 13 Aug 2022, Jude DaShiell wrote:

> nvda came into existence due to the nosebleed pricing of jaws.  Apparently
> people who worked in an office with jaws couldn't install it on their home
> computers in many cases and nvda made it possible for those home computers
> to start talking better than narrator would allow in the 2000's.
>
>
> On Sat, 13 Aug 2022, Karen Lewellen wrote:
>
>> And how often do clients get a choice about their tools?
>> Support this with objective documentation, as this is your professional
>> industry, if memory serves.
>> I recall on more than one occasion being provided with documentation where
>> jaws was the only screen reader choice a client was given.
>> Know of at least one professional who turned to Linux because they never
>> wanted to use Jaws or windows again.
>> since rehab holds the money strings for fs, it is up to the counselors to
>> prove, with numbers, that it is worth  the financial investment  for freedom
>> scientific.
>> My understanding is that nvda came into being because clients wanted more
>> choices  than Jaws, and counselors were resistant.
>>
>>
>>
>> On Sat, 13 Aug 2022, K0LNY_Glenn wrote:
>>
>>> True enough, but largely, rehab people typically use Windows at work, and
>>> probably at home, but they need to cater to the needs of the client.
>>> If a client used Linux, I doubt that any rehab counselor would advocate that
>>> the client switch to Windows, unless that was needed for a specific job.
>>> In Nebraska, we purchased Jaws much more for personal use than we did for
>>> work related situations.
>>> So if FS made a JFL, and people were using Linux, rehab would indeed
>>> purchase a JFL product.
>>> Glenn
>>> ----- Original Message -----
>>> From: "Karen Lewellen" <klewellen at shellworld.net>
>>> To: "K0LNY_Glenn" <glenn at ervin.email>
>>> Cc: <speakup at linux-speakup.org>; "Milan Zamazal" <pdm at zamazal.org>;
>>> <Blinux-list at redhat.com>
>>> Sent: Saturday, August 13, 2022 3:01 PM
>>> Subject: Re: "Accessibility in Fedora Workstation" (fwd)
>>>
>>>
>>> there was an interesting discussion a month or so back on the blinux list
>>> about how long it took completing tasks in the gui as apposed to say
>>> command line,  the comments were quite informative.
>>> Still, fs has never marketed largely to the end user. Instead they market
>>> to the American rehab community.
>>> how much market research has  the rehab community done to support the need
>>> for choices?
>>> How many rehab counselors support  training in Linux?
>>> one comment made by the subject of this thread about poor quality speech
>>> is a fine one...out of the box Linux has few speech choices.  everyone
>>> brings their needs to the table there.
>>>
>>> if you want to get fs to care about Linux, you  need to prove there is
>>> money for  them there, from their main source of income.
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> On Sat, 13 Aug 2022, K0LNY_Glenn wrote:
>>>
>>>> Well since Orca seems to work on so many distros, I don't know why FS
>>>> would
>>>> not be able to do the same.
>>>> If Jaws users could switch into Linux, it would be a real game changer,
>>>> and
>>>> I think with lots more Blind Linux users, we would start seeing
>>>> accessibility in Linux not being a second thought.
>>>> Glenn
>>>> ----- Original Message -----
>>>> From: "Karen Lewellen" <klewellen at shellworld.net>
>>>> To: "K0LNY_Glenn" <glenn at ervin.email>
>>>> Cc: <speakup at linux-speakup.org>; "Milan Zamazal" <pdm at zamazal.org>;
>>>> <Blinux-list at redhat.com>
>>>> Sent: Saturday, August 13, 2022 1:47 PM
>>>> Subject: Re: "Accessibility in Fedora Workstation" (fwd)
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> Well technically freedom scientific does not exist any longer, being
>>>> bought
>>>> by another company.
>>>> Still, I can respect why they, or nvda have not created their tools for
>>>> Linux.
>>>> That is because as I understand it, Linux is  quite like clay. You can
>>>> mold a distribution into almost anything. there are various
>>>> personifications of the system, all sorts of ways and changes and options
>>>> for creativity.
>>>> however adaptive tools are often extensions of physical characteristics,
>>>> hands, eyes, ears, brains, combinations of these.
>>>> To build solid assistive tools one must have a solid  foundation as it
>>>> were.  that is part of why there have needed to be so few Apple  efforts
>>>> at
>>>> inclusion, they  created  with, and then created in-house adaptive tools
>>>> for various  populations that were built into the system.
>>>> Although Microsoft did not bother until much later, in theory at least,
>>>> the
>>>> consistency of windows is what makes it possible for freedom or the former
>>>> gw  micro or nvda to create something that can in theory  work.
>>>> Floor for the furniture is somewhat solid.
>>>> Just my thoughts,
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> On Sat, 13 Aug 2022, K0LNY_Glenn wrote:
>>>>
>>>>> I would like to see Freedom Scientific make a Jaws For Linux.
>>>>> JFL
>>>>> I'd certainly pay the yearly rental fee for it, and it would bring many
>>>>> more
>>>>> users into Linux.
>>>>> FS could, with its resources, possibly make it more robust than Orca.
>>>>>
>>>>> Glenn
>>>>> ----- Original Message -----
>>>>> From: "Milan Zamazal" <pdm at zamazal.org>
>>>>> To: <speakup at linux-speakup.org>
>>>>> Cc: <Blinux-list at redhat.com>
>>>>> Sent: Saturday, August 13, 2022 12:08 PM
>>>>> Subject: Re: "Accessibility in Fedora Workstation" (fwd)
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> "KL" == Karen Lewellen <klewellen at shellworld.net> writes:
>>>>>
>>>>>    KL> What bothers me most are his lack of actual qualifications, and
>>>>>    KL> absolute dismissal of what he has not experienced..as if he
>>>>>    KL> defines Linux usage for everyone.  That attitude is dangerous,
>>>>>    KL> because he is educating those outside of the accessibility
>>>>>    KL> experiences, who will believe his ignorance is factual.  he has
>>>>>    KL> to be expert, it is his job.
>>>>>
>>>>> Hi Karen,
>>>>>
>>>>> I know Lukas personally and I admire his skills and qualifications.  I
>>>>> also know first hand that he is open to constructive feedback and I
>>>>> believe he?d be happy to be corrected about possible technical
>>>>> inaccuracies in the interview.  It may be also a good opportunity to
>>>>> find out what?s possibly missing in making anybody better informed.
>>>>>
>>>>> As for ?absolute dismissal of what he has not experienced?, what
>>>>> reasonable free software alternatives to a less or more standard desktop
>>>>> with Orca and a software synthesizer can you see for a common blind user
>>>>> who needs to use a fully working web browser, to read and process text
>>>>> documents, to be compatible with other computer users, etc.?
>>>>>
>>>>> And let?s be realistic.  We celebrate every single developer hired to
>>>>> improve accessibility.  This tells something about the state of the
>>>>> matters.  We cannot expect that a single person will fix all the kinds
>>>>> of accessibility problems in all the environments.  Lukas works at his
>>>>> job focusing on certain areas currently seen there as urgent ones and I
>>>>> appreciate this opportunity.  Anybody else seeing a need to work on
>>>>> other areas is welcome to contribute to whatever sees fit, as I do.
>>>>>
>>>>> Regards,
>>>>> Milan
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>
>
>

"Accessibility in Fedora Workstation" (fwd)

[blinux-list]

And your employment track record?



On Sat, 13 Aug 2022, K0LNY_Glenn wrote:

> In my work, the client got what ever they needed.
> We never forced Windows or Jaws on them.
>
> Glenn
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: "Karen Lewellen" <klewellen at shellworld.net>
> To: "K0LNY_Glenn" <glenn at ervin.email>
> Cc: <speakup at linux-speakup.org>; "Milan Zamazal" <pdm at zamazal.org>;
> <Blinux-list at redhat.com>
> Sent: Saturday, August 13, 2022 3:26 PM
> Subject: Re: "Accessibility in Fedora Workstation" (fwd)
>
>
> And how often do clients get a choice about their tools?
> Support this with objective documentation, as this is your professional
> industry, if memory serves.
> I recall on more than one occasion being provided with documentation where
> jaws was the only screen reader choice a client was given.
> Know of at least one professional who turned to Linux because they never
> wanted to use Jaws or windows again.
> since rehab holds the money strings for fs, it is up to the counselors to
> prove, with numbers, that it is worth  the financial investment  for
> freedom scientific.
> My understanding is that nvda came into being because clients wanted more
> choices  than Jaws, and counselors were resistant.
>
>
>
> On Sat, 13 Aug 2022, K0LNY_Glenn wrote:
>
>> True enough, but largely, rehab people typically use Windows at work, and
>> probably at home, but they need to cater to the needs of the client.
>> If a client used Linux, I doubt that any rehab counselor would advocate
>> that
>> the client switch to Windows, unless that was needed for a specific job.
>> In Nebraska, we purchased Jaws much more for personal use than we did for
>> work related situations.
>> So if FS made a JFL, and people were using Linux, rehab would indeed
>> purchase a JFL product.
>> Glenn
>> ----- Original Message -----
>> From: "Karen Lewellen" <klewellen at shellworld.net>
>> To: "K0LNY_Glenn" <glenn at ervin.email>
>> Cc: <speakup at linux-speakup.org>; "Milan Zamazal" <pdm at zamazal.org>;
>> <Blinux-list at redhat.com>
>> Sent: Saturday, August 13, 2022 3:01 PM
>> Subject: Re: "Accessibility in Fedora Workstation" (fwd)
>>
>>
>> there was an interesting discussion a month or so back on the blinux list
>> about how long it took completing tasks in the gui as apposed to say
>> command line,  the comments were quite informative.
>> Still, fs has never marketed largely to the end user. Instead they market
>> to the American rehab community.
>> how much market research has  the rehab community done to support the need
>> for choices?
>> How many rehab counselors support  training in Linux?
>> one comment made by the subject of this thread about poor quality speech
>> is a fine one...out of the box Linux has few speech choices.  everyone
>> brings their needs to the table there.
>>
>> if you want to get fs to care about Linux, you  need to prove there is
>> money for  them there, from their main source of income.
>>
>>
>>
>> On Sat, 13 Aug 2022, K0LNY_Glenn wrote:
>>
>>> Well since Orca seems to work on so many distros, I don't know why FS
>>> would
>>> not be able to do the same.
>>> If Jaws users could switch into Linux, it would be a real game changer,
>>> and
>>> I think with lots more Blind Linux users, we would start seeing
>>> accessibility in Linux not being a second thought.
>>> Glenn
>>> ----- Original Message -----
>>> From: "Karen Lewellen" <klewellen at shellworld.net>
>>> To: "K0LNY_Glenn" <glenn at ervin.email>
>>> Cc: <speakup at linux-speakup.org>; "Milan Zamazal" <pdm at zamazal.org>;
>>> <Blinux-list at redhat.com>
>>> Sent: Saturday, August 13, 2022 1:47 PM
>>> Subject: Re: "Accessibility in Fedora Workstation" (fwd)
>>>
>>>
>>> Well technically freedom scientific does not exist any longer, being
>>> bought
>>> by another company.
>>> Still, I can respect why they, or nvda have not created their tools for
>>> Linux.
>>> That is because as I understand it, Linux is  quite like clay. You can
>>> mold a distribution into almost anything. there are various
>>> personifications of the system, all sorts of ways and changes and options
>>> for creativity.
>>> however adaptive tools are often extensions of physical characteristics,
>>> hands, eyes, ears, brains, combinations of these.
>>> To build solid assistive tools one must have a solid  foundation as it
>>> were.  that is part of why there have needed to be so few Apple  efforts
>>> at
>>> inclusion, they  created  with, and then created in-house adaptive tools
>>> for various  populations that were built into the system.
>>> Although Microsoft did not bother until much later, in theory at least,
>>> the
>>> consistency of windows is what makes it possible for freedom or the
>>> former
>>> gw  micro or nvda to create something that can in theory  work.
>>> Floor for the furniture is somewhat solid.
>>> Just my thoughts,
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> On Sat, 13 Aug 2022, K0LNY_Glenn wrote:
>>>
>>>> I would like to see Freedom Scientific make a Jaws For Linux.
>>>> JFL
>>>> I'd certainly pay the yearly rental fee for it, and it would bring many
>>>> more
>>>> users into Linux.
>>>> FS could, with its resources, possibly make it more robust than Orca.
>>>>
>>>> Glenn
>>>> ----- Original Message -----
>>>> From: "Milan Zamazal" <pdm at zamazal.org>
>>>> To: <speakup at linux-speakup.org>
>>>> Cc: <Blinux-list at redhat.com>
>>>> Sent: Saturday, August 13, 2022 12:08 PM
>>>> Subject: Re: "Accessibility in Fedora Workstation" (fwd)
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>>>>>> "KL" == Karen Lewellen <klewellen at shellworld.net> writes:
>>>>
>>>>    KL> What bothers me most are his lack of actual qualifications, and
>>>>    KL> absolute dismissal of what he has not experienced..as if he
>>>>    KL> defines Linux usage for everyone.  That attitude is dangerous,
>>>>    KL> because he is educating those outside of the accessibility
>>>>    KL> experiences, who will believe his ignorance is factual.  he has
>>>>    KL> to be expert, it is his job.
>>>>
>>>> Hi Karen,
>>>>
>>>> I know Lukas personally and I admire his skills and qualifications.  I
>>>> also know first hand that he is open to constructive feedback and I
>>>> believe he?d be happy to be corrected about possible technical
>>>> inaccuracies in the interview.  It may be also a good opportunity to
>>>> find out what?s possibly missing in making anybody better informed.
>>>>
>>>> As for ?absolute dismissal of what he has not experienced?, what
>>>> reasonable free software alternatives to a less or more standard desktop
>>>> with Orca and a software synthesizer can you see for a common blind user
>>>> who needs to use a fully working web browser, to read and process text
>>>> documents, to be compatible with other computer users, etc.?
>>>>
>>>> And let?s be realistic.  We celebrate every single developer hired to
>>>> improve accessibility.  This tells something about the state of the
>>>> matters.  We cannot expect that a single person will fix all the kinds
>>>> of accessibility problems in all the environments.  Lukas works at his
>>>> job focusing on certain areas currently seen there as urgent ones and I
>>>> appreciate this opportunity.  Anybody else seeing a need to work on
>>>> other areas is welcome to contribute to whatever sees fit, as I do.
>>>>
>>>> Regards,
>>>> Milan
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>
>>>
>>
>>
>>
>
>

"Accessibility in Fedora Workstation" (fwd)

[blinux-list]

The challenge with that example is that, as one often gets reminded,  the 
rehab systems track record for facilitating  employment for their clients 
is quite poor.
With a high percentage of unemployment among our clients.  Making, 
speaking personally, your buying Jaws for personal use not really 
reflecting how the system would respond to an alternative request.
Now if someone from organized rehab said, okay freedom scientific, we are 
creating an employment program where our clients will train in Linux, 
needing a solid screen reader solution for the system.  We will give you an 
exclusive development contract for s millions to create the tool.
Fs would likely say where do we sign?



On Sat, 13 Aug 2022, K0LNY_Glenn wrote:

> True enough, but largely, rehab people typically use Windows at work, and
> probably at home, but they need to cater to the needs of the client.
> If a client used Linux, I doubt that any rehab counselor would advocate that
> the client switch to Windows, unless that was needed for a specific job.
> In Nebraska, we purchased Jaws much more for personal use than we did for
> work related situations.
> So if FS made a JFL, and people were using Linux, rehab would indeed
> purchase a JFL product.
> Glenn
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: "Karen Lewellen" <klewellen at shellworld.net>
> To: "K0LNY_Glenn" <glenn at ervin.email>
> Cc: <speakup at linux-speakup.org>; "Milan Zamazal" <pdm at zamazal.org>;
> <Blinux-list at redhat.com>
> Sent: Saturday, August 13, 2022 3:01 PM
> Subject: Re: "Accessibility in Fedora Workstation" (fwd)
>
>
> there was an interesting discussion a month or so back on the blinux list
> about how long it took completing tasks in the gui as apposed to say
> command line,  the comments were quite informative.
> Still, fs has never marketed largely to the end user. Instead they market
> to the American rehab community.
> how much market research has  the rehab community done to support the need
> for choices?
> How many rehab counselors support  training in Linux?
> one comment made by the subject of this thread about poor quality speech
> is a fine one...out of the box Linux has few speech choices.  everyone
> brings their needs to the table there.
>
> if you want to get fs to care about Linux, you  need to prove there is
> money for  them there, from their main source of income.
>
>
>
> On Sat, 13 Aug 2022, K0LNY_Glenn wrote:
>
>> Well since Orca seems to work on so many distros, I don't know why FS
>> would
>> not be able to do the same.
>> If Jaws users could switch into Linux, it would be a real game changer,
>> and
>> I think with lots more Blind Linux users, we would start seeing
>> accessibility in Linux not being a second thought.
>> Glenn
>> ----- Original Message -----
>> From: "Karen Lewellen" <klewellen at shellworld.net>
>> To: "K0LNY_Glenn" <glenn at ervin.email>
>> Cc: <speakup at linux-speakup.org>; "Milan Zamazal" <pdm at zamazal.org>;
>> <Blinux-list at redhat.com>
>> Sent: Saturday, August 13, 2022 1:47 PM
>> Subject: Re: "Accessibility in Fedora Workstation" (fwd)
>>
>>
>> Well technically freedom scientific does not exist any longer, being
>> bought
>> by another company.
>> Still, I can respect why they, or nvda have not created their tools for
>> Linux.
>> That is because as I understand it, Linux is  quite like clay. You can
>> mold a distribution into almost anything. there are various
>> personifications of the system, all sorts of ways and changes and options
>> for creativity.
>> however adaptive tools are often extensions of physical characteristics,
>> hands, eyes, ears, brains, combinations of these.
>> To build solid assistive tools one must have a solid  foundation as it
>> were.  that is part of why there have needed to be so few Apple  efforts
>> at
>> inclusion, they  created  with, and then created in-house adaptive tools
>> for various  populations that were built into the system.
>> Although Microsoft did not bother until much later, in theory at least,
>> the
>> consistency of windows is what makes it possible for freedom or the former
>> gw  micro or nvda to create something that can in theory  work.
>> Floor for the furniture is somewhat solid.
>> Just my thoughts,
>>
>>
>>
>> On Sat, 13 Aug 2022, K0LNY_Glenn wrote:
>>
>>> I would like to see Freedom Scientific make a Jaws For Linux.
>>> JFL
>>> I'd certainly pay the yearly rental fee for it, and it would bring many
>>> more
>>> users into Linux.
>>> FS could, with its resources, possibly make it more robust than Orca.
>>>
>>> Glenn
>>> ----- Original Message -----
>>> From: "Milan Zamazal" <pdm at zamazal.org>
>>> To: <speakup at linux-speakup.org>
>>> Cc: <Blinux-list at redhat.com>
>>> Sent: Saturday, August 13, 2022 12:08 PM
>>> Subject: Re: "Accessibility in Fedora Workstation" (fwd)
>>>
>>>
>>>>>>>> "KL" == Karen Lewellen <klewellen at shellworld.net> writes:
>>>
>>>    KL> What bothers me most are his lack of actual qualifications, and
>>>    KL> absolute dismissal of what he has not experienced..as if he
>>>    KL> defines Linux usage for everyone.  That attitude is dangerous,
>>>    KL> because he is educating those outside of the accessibility
>>>    KL> experiences, who will believe his ignorance is factual.  he has
>>>    KL> to be expert, it is his job.
>>>
>>> Hi Karen,
>>>
>>> I know Lukas personally and I admire his skills and qualifications.  I
>>> also know first hand that he is open to constructive feedback and I
>>> believe he?d be happy to be corrected about possible technical
>>> inaccuracies in the interview.  It may be also a good opportunity to
>>> find out what?s possibly missing in making anybody better informed.
>>>
>>> As for ?absolute dismissal of what he has not experienced?, what
>>> reasonable free software alternatives to a less or more standard desktop
>>> with Orca and a software synthesizer can you see for a common blind user
>>> who needs to use a fully working web browser, to read and process text
>>> documents, to be compatible with other computer users, etc.?
>>>
>>> And let?s be realistic.  We celebrate every single developer hired to
>>> improve accessibility.  This tells something about the state of the
>>> matters.  We cannot expect that a single person will fix all the kinds
>>> of accessibility problems in all the environments.  Lukas works at his
>>> job focusing on certain areas currently seen there as urgent ones and I
>>> appreciate this opportunity.  Anybody else seeing a need to work on
>>> other areas is welcome to contribute to whatever sees fit, as I do.
>>>
>>> Regards,
>>> Milan
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>
>>
>
>

"Accessibility in Fedora Workstation" (fwd)

[blinux-list]

And where do these employers learn about jaws?
In fact, provide if you do not mind an example of how  this works exactly. 
after all, unless I am incorrect, these employers are not personal 
Jaws users, meaning someone they trust continues to sell them on an 
expensive program instead of a largely free one.



On Sat, 13 Aug 2022, K0LNY_Glenn wrote:

> Karen,
> Most employers don't want NVDA, and will only allow Jaws.
> In Nebraska, if an employer said put on whatever works, the counselors will
> use NVDA, because of the cost of Jaws.
> If some of the clients in a call center already use Jaws, but don't know
> NVDA, the counselor will use Jaws, because the other clients will need to
> learn one of the two.
> So it's all choice, but in the workplace, it depends on what the employer
> will allow.
> Also, sometimes scripts need to be made, and there are more Jaws scripters
> available than there are NVDA add-on writers.
> So this perception that Jaws is forced by rehab, from my 31 years in the
> business I can say is rubbish.
> Now, if a counselor did not know how to use NVDA, and either may be chosen,
> the rehab counselor is able to select the one that the counselor feels is
> best for the student and for the counselor's teaching.
> When it comes to part B moneys, which is used for non-vocational purchases,
> where a lot of Jaws purchases come from, it is in the agency's best interest
> to spend as little as possible, because that doesn't come back like VR
> expenditures do.
> Glenn
>
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: "Karen Lewellen" <klewellen at shellworld.net>
> To: "K0LNY_Glenn" <glenn at ervin.email>
> Cc: <speakup at linux-speakup.org>; "Milan Zamazal" <pdm at zamazal.org>;
> <Blinux-list at redhat.com>
> Sent: Saturday, August 13, 2022 6:15 PM
> Subject: Re: "Accessibility in Fedora Workstation" (fwd)
>
>
> The challenge with that example is that, as one often gets reminded,  the
> rehab systems track record for facilitating  employment for their clients
> is quite poor.
> With a high percentage of unemployment among our clients.  Making,
> speaking personally, your buying Jaws for personal use not really
> reflecting how the system would respond to an alternative request.
> Now if someone from organized rehab said, okay freedom scientific, we are
> creating an employment program where our clients will train in Linux,
> needing a solid screen reader solution for the system.  We will give you an
> exclusive development contract for s millions to create the tool.
> Fs would likely say where do we sign?
>
>
>
> On Sat, 13 Aug 2022, K0LNY_Glenn wrote:
>
>> True enough, but largely, rehab people typically use Windows at work, and
>> probably at home, but they need to cater to the needs of the client.
>> If a client used Linux, I doubt that any rehab counselor would advocate
>> that
>> the client switch to Windows, unless that was needed for a specific job.
>> In Nebraska, we purchased Jaws much more for personal use than we did for
>> work related situations.
>> So if FS made a JFL, and people were using Linux, rehab would indeed
>> purchase a JFL product.
>> Glenn
>> ----- Original Message -----
>> From: "Karen Lewellen" <klewellen at shellworld.net>
>> To: "K0LNY_Glenn" <glenn at ervin.email>
>> Cc: <speakup at linux-speakup.org>; "Milan Zamazal" <pdm at zamazal.org>;
>> <Blinux-list at redhat.com>
>> Sent: Saturday, August 13, 2022 3:01 PM
>> Subject: Re: "Accessibility in Fedora Workstation" (fwd)
>>
>>
>> there was an interesting discussion a month or so back on the blinux list
>> about how long it took completing tasks in the gui as apposed to say
>> command line,  the comments were quite informative.
>> Still, fs has never marketed largely to the end user. Instead they market
>> to the American rehab community.
>> how much market research has  the rehab community done to support the need
>> for choices?
>> How many rehab counselors support  training in Linux?
>> one comment made by the subject of this thread about poor quality speech
>> is a fine one...out of the box Linux has few speech choices.  everyone
>> brings their needs to the table there.
>>
>> if you want to get fs to care about Linux, you  need to prove there is
>> money for  them there, from their main source of income.
>>
>>
>>
>> On Sat, 13 Aug 2022, K0LNY_Glenn wrote:
>>
>>> Well since Orca seems to work on so many distros, I don't know why FS
>>> would
>>> not be able to do the same.
>>> If Jaws users could switch into Linux, it would be a real game changer,
>>> and
>>> I think with lots more Blind Linux users, we would start seeing
>>> accessibility in Linux not being a second thought.
>>> Glenn
>>> ----- Original Message -----
>>> From: "Karen Lewellen" <klewellen at shellworld.net>
>>> To: "K0LNY_Glenn" <glenn at ervin.email>
>>> Cc: <speakup at linux-speakup.org>; "Milan Zamazal" <pdm at zamazal.org>;
>>> <Blinux-list at redhat.com>
>>> Sent: Saturday, August 13, 2022 1:47 PM
>>> Subject: Re: "Accessibility in Fedora Workstation" (fwd)
>>>
>>>
>>> Well technically freedom scientific does not exist any longer, being
>>> bought
>>> by another company.
>>> Still, I can respect why they, or nvda have not created their tools for
>>> Linux.
>>> That is because as I understand it, Linux is  quite like clay. You can
>>> mold a distribution into almost anything. there are various
>>> personifications of the system, all sorts of ways and changes and options
>>> for creativity.
>>> however adaptive tools are often extensions of physical characteristics,
>>> hands, eyes, ears, brains, combinations of these.
>>> To build solid assistive tools one must have a solid  foundation as it
>>> were.  that is part of why there have needed to be so few Apple  efforts
>>> at
>>> inclusion, they  created  with, and then created in-house adaptive tools
>>> for various  populations that were built into the system.
>>> Although Microsoft did not bother until much later, in theory at least,
>>> the
>>> consistency of windows is what makes it possible for freedom or the
>>> former
>>> gw  micro or nvda to create something that can in theory  work.
>>> Floor for the furniture is somewhat solid.
>>> Just my thoughts,
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> On Sat, 13 Aug 2022, K0LNY_Glenn wrote:
>>>
>>>> I would like to see Freedom Scientific make a Jaws For Linux.
>>>> JFL
>>>> I'd certainly pay the yearly rental fee for it, and it would bring many
>>>> more
>>>> users into Linux.
>>>> FS could, with its resources, possibly make it more robust than Orca.
>>>>
>>>> Glenn
>>>> ----- Original Message -----
>>>> From: "Milan Zamazal" <pdm at zamazal.org>
>>>> To: <speakup at linux-speakup.org>
>>>> Cc: <Blinux-list at redhat.com>
>>>> Sent: Saturday, August 13, 2022 12:08 PM
>>>> Subject: Re: "Accessibility in Fedora Workstation" (fwd)
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>>>>>> "KL" == Karen Lewellen <klewellen at shellworld.net> writes:
>>>>
>>>>    KL> What bothers me most are his lack of actual qualifications, and
>>>>    KL> absolute dismissal of what he has not experienced..as if he
>>>>    KL> defines Linux usage for everyone.  That attitude is dangerous,
>>>>    KL> because he is educating those outside of the accessibility
>>>>    KL> experiences, who will believe his ignorance is factual.  he has
>>>>    KL> to be expert, it is his job.
>>>>
>>>> Hi Karen,
>>>>
>>>> I know Lukas personally and I admire his skills and qualifications.  I
>>>> also know first hand that he is open to constructive feedback and I
>>>> believe he?d be happy to be corrected about possible technical
>>>> inaccuracies in the interview.  It may be also a good opportunity to
>>>> find out what?s possibly missing in making anybody better informed.
>>>>
>>>> As for ?absolute dismissal of what he has not experienced?, what
>>>> reasonable free software alternatives to a less or more standard desktop
>>>> with Orca and a software synthesizer can you see for a common blind user
>>>> who needs to use a fully working web browser, to read and process text
>>>> documents, to be compatible with other computer users, etc.?
>>>>
>>>> And let?s be realistic.  We celebrate every single developer hired to
>>>> improve accessibility.  This tells something about the state of the
>>>> matters.  We cannot expect that a single person will fix all the kinds
>>>> of accessibility problems in all the environments.  Lukas works at his
>>>> job focusing on certain areas currently seen there as urgent ones and I
>>>> appreciate this opportunity.  Anybody else seeing a need to work on
>>>> other areas is welcome to contribute to whatever sees fit, as I do.
>>>>
>>>> Regards,
>>>> Milan
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>
>>>
>>
>>
>
>

"Accessibility in Fedora Workstation" (fwd)

[blinux-list]

Did you know the NFB once asked Microsoft to *NOT* develop Narrator to 
the point where it would compete with Jaws? If you think the NFB is 
incapable of forcing a choice on blind people, you are sadly mistaken.


On 8/16/22 09:36, K0LNY_Glenn wrote:
> This sort of thing would never happen in Nebraska, or any state where the
> agency staff is of the NFB philosophy.
> Say what you want about the NFB, no organization is without its problems,
> but it is the core philosophy that formed the NFB that knows that society
> has low expectations of the Blind, and this is why the NFB believes in
> skills and high expectations.
> And with that, comes giving respect to the Blind, like the respect of
> choice.
> Yeah I know about the information of recent about NFB abuse, but this is
> organizational issues, unrelated to the philosophy.  In fact, the fact that
> it has come up demonstrates that the NFB is no different than any other
> organization in interpersonal staff issues.
> And choice does not mean training center choices.
> Choice isn't always an option, just like if you took a vocational course in
> college, there are things you have to take, so to me, the lack of choice in
> this regard is different than computer software, where all the choices will
> reach the same end result.
> In states where the NFB philosophy is embraced, if a client said I want to
> use a Mac, or I want Window Eyes, then that is what they would get, no
> questions asked.
> They would not have to fight to get it.
> I simply cannot imagine a counselor saying that someone has to use the
> software that the counselor wants them to have.
> When I hear that stuff, I almost cannot believe it, but I know Butch well
> enough to know he wouldn't make that up.
>
> Glenn
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: "Butch Bussen" <butchb at shellworld.net>
> To: "Karen Lewellen" <klewellen at shellworld.net>
> Cc: "K0LNY_Glenn" <glenn at ervin.email>; <speakup at linux-speakup.org>; "Milan
> Zamazal" <pdm at zamazal.org>; <Blinux-list at redhat.com>
> Sent: Tuesday, August 16, 2022 8:18 AM
> Subject: Re: "Accessibility in Fedora Workstation" (fwd)
>
>
> You are right.  In Nevada, freedom pushed jaws to the rehab people and
> took them out for steak diners and so forth.  I fought like hell to get
> them to buy window-eyes.
> 73
> Butch
> WA0VJR
> Node 3148
> Wallace, ks.
>
>
> On Sun, 14 Aug 2022, Karen Lewellen wrote:
>
>> And where do these employers learn about jaws?
>> In fact, provide if you do not mind an example of how  this works exactly.
>> after all, unless I am incorrect, these employers are not personal Jaws
>> users, meaning someone they trust continues to sell them on an expensive
>> program instead of a largely free one.
>>
>>
>>
>> On Sat, 13 Aug 2022, K0LNY_Glenn wrote:
>>
>>>   Karen,
>>>   Most employers don't want NVDA, and will only allow Jaws.
>>>   In Nebraska, if an employer said put on whatever works, the counselors
>>>   will
>>>   use NVDA, because of the cost of Jaws.
>>>   If some of the clients in a call center already use Jaws, but don't know
>>>   NVDA, the counselor will use Jaws, because the other clients will need
>>> to
>>>   learn one of the two.
>>>   So it's all choice, but in the workplace, it depends on what the
>>> employer
>>>   will allow.
>>>   Also, sometimes scripts need to be made, and there are more Jaws
>>> scripters
>>>   available than there are NVDA add-on writers.
>>>   So this perception that Jaws is forced by rehab, from my 31 years in the
>>>   business I can say is rubbish.
>>>   Now, if a counselor did not know how to use NVDA, and either may be
>>>   chosen,
>>>   the rehab counselor is able to select the one that the counselor feels
>>> is
>>>   best for the student and for the counselor's teaching.
>>>   When it comes to part B moneys, which is used for non-vocational
>>>   purchases,
>>>   where a lot of Jaws purchases come from, it is in the agency's best
>>>   interest
>>>   to spend as little as possible, because that doesn't come back like VR
>>>   expenditures do.
>>>   Glenn
>>>
>>>   ----- Original Message -----
>>>   From: "Karen Lewellen" <klewellen at shellworld.net>
>>>   To: "K0LNY_Glenn" <glenn at ervin.email>
>>>   Cc: <speakup at linux-speakup.org>; "Milan Zamazal" <pdm at zamazal.org>;
>>>   <Blinux-list at redhat.com>
>>>   Sent: Saturday, August 13, 2022 6:15 PM
>>>   Subject: Re: "Accessibility in Fedora Workstation" (fwd)
>>>
>>>
>>>   The challenge with that example is that, as one often gets reminded,
>>> the
>>>   rehab systems track record for facilitating  employment for their
>>> clients
>>>   is quite poor.
>>>   With a high percentage of unemployment among our clients.  Making,
>>>   speaking personally, your buying Jaws for personal use not really
>>>   reflecting how the system would respond to an alternative request.
>>>   Now if someone from organized rehab said, okay freedom scientific, we
>>> are
>>>   creating an employment program where our clients will train in Linux,
>>>   needing a solid screen reader solution for the system.  We will give you
>>>   an
>>>   exclusive development contract for s millions to create the tool.
>>>   Fs would likely say where do we sign?
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>   On Sat, 13 Aug 2022, K0LNY_Glenn wrote:
>>>
>>>>   True enough, but largely, rehab people typically use Windows at work,
>>>>   and
>>>>   probably at home, but they need to cater to the needs of the client.
>>>>   If a client used Linux, I doubt that any rehab counselor would
>>>> advocate
>>>>   that
>>>>   the client switch to Windows, unless that was needed for a specific
>>>> job.
>>>>   In Nebraska, we purchased Jaws much more for personal use than we did
>>>>   for
>>>>   work related situations.
>>>>   So if FS made a JFL, and people were using Linux, rehab would indeed
>>>>   purchase a JFL product.
>>>>   Glenn
>>>>   ----- Original Message -----
>>>>   From: "Karen Lewellen" <klewellen at shellworld.net>
>>>>   To: "K0LNY_Glenn" <glenn at ervin.email>
>>>>   Cc: <speakup at linux-speakup.org>; "Milan Zamazal" <pdm at zamazal.org>;
>>>>   <Blinux-list at redhat.com>
>>>>   Sent: Saturday, August 13, 2022 3:01 PM
>>>>   Subject: Re: "Accessibility in Fedora Workstation" (fwd)
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>   there was an interesting discussion a month or so back on the blinux
>>>>   list
>>>>   about how long it took completing tasks in the gui as apposed to say
>>>>   command line,  the comments were quite informative.
>>>>   Still, fs has never marketed largely to the end user. Instead they
>>>>   market
>>>>   to the American rehab community.
>>>>   how much market research has  the rehab community done to support the
>>>>   need
>>>>   for choices?
>>>>   How many rehab counselors support  training in Linux?
>>>>   one comment made by the subject of this thread about poor quality
>>>> speech
>>>>   is a fine one...out of the box Linux has few speech choices.  everyone
>>>>   brings their needs to the table there.
>>>>
>>>>   if you want to get fs to care about Linux, you  need to prove there is
>>>>   money for  them there, from their main source of income.
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>   On Sat, 13 Aug 2022, K0LNY_Glenn wrote:
>>>>
>>>>>   Well since Orca seems to work on so many distros, I don't know why
>>>>> FS
>>>>>   would
>>>>>   not be able to do the same.
>>>>>   If Jaws users could switch into Linux, it would be a real game
>>>>>   changer,
>>>>>   and
>>>>>   I think with lots more Blind Linux users, we would start seeing
>>>>>   accessibility in Linux not being a second thought.
>>>>>   Glenn
>>>>>   ----- Original Message -----
>>>>>   From: "Karen Lewellen" <klewellen at shellworld.net>
>>>>>   To: "K0LNY_Glenn" <glenn at ervin.email>
>>>>>   Cc: <speakup at linux-speakup.org>; "Milan Zamazal" <pdm at zamazal.org>;
>>>>>   <Blinux-list at redhat.com>
>>>>>   Sent: Saturday, August 13, 2022 1:47 PM
>>>>>   Subject: Re: "Accessibility in Fedora Workstation" (fwd)
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>   Well technically freedom scientific does not exist any longer, being
>>>>>   bought
>>>>>   by another company.
>>>>>   Still, I can respect why they, or nvda have not created their tools
>>>>>   for
>>>>>   Linux.
>>>>>   That is because as I understand it, Linux is  quite like clay. You
>>>>> can
>>>>>   mold a distribution into almost anything. there are various
>>>>>   personifications of the system, all sorts of ways and changes and
>>>>>   options
>>>>>   for creativity.
>>>>>   however adaptive tools are often extensions of physical
>>>>>   characteristics,
>>>>>   hands, eyes, ears, brains, combinations of these.
>>>>>   To build solid assistive tools one must have a solid  foundation as
>>>>> it
>>>>>   were.  that is part of why there have needed to be so few Apple
>>>>>   efforts
>>>>>   at
>>>>>   inclusion, they  created  with, and then created in-house adaptive
>>>>>   tools
>>>>>   for various  populations that were built into the system.
>>>>>   Although Microsoft did not bother until much later, in theory at
>>>>>   least,
>>>>>   the
>>>>>   consistency of windows is what makes it possible for freedom or the
>>>>>   former
>>>>>   gw  micro or nvda to create something that can in theory  work.
>>>>>   Floor for the furniture is somewhat solid.
>>>>>   Just my thoughts,
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>   On Sat, 13 Aug 2022, K0LNY_Glenn wrote:
>>>>>
>>>>>>   I would like to see Freedom Scientific make a Jaws For Linux.
>>>>>>   JFL
>>>>>>   I'd certainly pay the yearly rental fee for it, and it would bring
>>>>>>   many
>>>>>>   more
>>>>>>   users into Linux.
>>>>>>   FS could, with its resources, possibly make it more robust than
>>>>>>   Orca.
>>>>>>
>>>>>>   Glenn
>>>>>>   ----- Original Message -----
>>>>>>   From: "Milan Zamazal" <pdm at zamazal.org>
>>>>>>   To: <speakup at linux-speakup.org>
>>>>>>   Cc: <Blinux-list at redhat.com>
>>>>>>   Sent: Saturday, August 13, 2022 12:08 PM
>>>>>>   Subject: Re: "Accessibility in Fedora Workstation" (fwd)
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>   "KL" == Karen Lewellen <klewellen at shellworld.net>
>>>>>>>>>>> writes:
>>>>>> KL>  What bothers me most are his lack of actual qualifications,
>>>>>> and
>>>>>> KL>  absolute dismissal of what he has not experienced..as if he
>>>>>> KL>  defines Linux usage for everyone.  That attitude is dangerous,
>>>>>> KL>  because he is educating those outside of the accessibility
>>>>>> KL>  experiences, who will believe his ignorance is factual.  he
>>>>>> has
>>>>>> KL>  to be expert, it is his job.
>>>>>>
>>>>>>   Hi Karen,
>>>>>>
>>>>>>   I know Lukas personally and I admire his skills and
>>>>>> qualifications.
>>>>>>   I
>>>>>>   also know first hand that he is open to constructive feedback and
>>>>>> I
>>>>>>   believe he??Td be happy to be corrected about possible technical
>>>>>>   inaccuracies in the interview.  It may be also a good opportunity
>>>>>> to
>>>>>>   find out what??Ts possibly missing in making anybody better
>>>>>>   informed.
>>>>>>
>>>>>>   As for ??oabsolute dismissal of what he has not experienced???,
>>>>>> what
>>>>>>   reasonable free software alternatives to a less or more standard
>>>>>>   desktop
>>>>>>   with Orca and a software synthesizer can you see for a common
>>>>>> blind
>>>>>>   user
>>>>>>   who needs to use a fully working web browser, to read and process
>>>>>>   text
>>>>>>   documents, to be compatible with other computer users, etc.?
>>>>>>
>>>>>>   And let??Ts be realistic.  We celebrate every single developer
>>>>>> hired
>>>>>>   to
>>>>>>   improve accessibility.  This tells something about the state of
>>>>>> the
>>>>>>   matters.  We cannot expect that a single person will fix all the
>>>>>>   kinds
>>>>>>   of accessibility problems in all the environments.  Lukas works at
>>>>>>   his
>>>>>>   job focusing on certain areas currently seen there as urgent ones
>>>>>>   and I
>>>>>>   appreciate this opportunity.  Anybody else seeing a need to work
>>>>>> on
>>>>>>   other areas is welcome to contribute to whatever sees fit, as I
>>>>>> do.
>>>>>>
>>>>>>   Regards,
>>>>>>   Milan
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>
>>>
>

"Accessibility in Fedora Workstation" (fwd)

[blinux-list]

Meantime, over this side of the Pond, the RNIB has a reputation of being 
for old people.


See people rag on Narrator, but it's come on leaps and bounds.


So has Orca. I'd argue if you're on an LTS release, or a distro that 
makes it hard to upgrade your Orca, you get a poor experience of it. 
Looking at you, Debian and derivatives that ship with 3.3X instead of 
Gnome and Gnome stacks of 40-42.X. Don't get me wrong, the idea of 
stable, if old, software is great. But just as web browsers are updated 
for security. I'd like to see A11Y stuff updated as well. Admittedly, I 
can already imagine how much dependcy hell that would cause for 
something like Ubuntu or Debian or Mint however.

That being said I'm now wondering if Orca could be offered as an all in 
one bundle, such as an appimage or flatpack that could be plugged in and 
ran. I don't know if what I'm on about is possible, really.

Also having read up on the abuse, I'm just going to point out it's not a 
one time thing. Or limited to the NFB, large organizations have a 
history of covering up whatever they choose to. Look at Enron for the 
poster child of fraud, the Catholic Church or other religions for poster 
examples of how to cover up abuse though

Also, I'd be interested in reading up more on the NFB wanting MS to not 
develop A11Y tech for ear of competing. That sounds like the same thing 
MS was doing in the mid-late 90s as ar as anti competitive practices 
which led to the DoJ legal issues though.



On 8/16/22 17:56, Linux for blind general discussion wrote:
> Did you know the NFB once asked Microsoft to *NOT* develop Narrator to 
> the point where it would compete with Jaws? If you think the NFB is 
> incapable of forcing a choice on blind people, you are sadly mistaken.
>
>
> On 8/16/22 09:36, K0LNY_Glenn wrote:
>> This sort of thing would never happen in Nebraska, or any state where 
>> the
>> agency staff is of the NFB philosophy.
>> Say what you want about the NFB, no organization is without its 
>> problems,
>> but it is the core philosophy that formed the NFB that knows that 
>> society
>> has low expectations of the Blind, and this is why the NFB believes in
>> skills and high expectations.
>> And with that, comes giving respect to the Blind, like the respect of
>> choice.
>> Yeah I know about the information of recent about NFB abuse, but this is
>> organizational issues, unrelated to the philosophy.? In fact, the 
>> fact that
>> it has come up demonstrates that the NFB is no different than any other
>> organization in interpersonal staff issues.
>> And choice does not mean training center choices.
>> Choice isn't always an option, just like if you took a vocational 
>> course in
>> college, there are things you have to take, so to me, the lack of 
>> choice in
>> this regard is different than computer software, where all the 
>> choices will
>> reach the same end result.
>> In states where the NFB philosophy is embraced, if a client said I 
>> want to
>> use a Mac, or I want Window Eyes, then that is what they would get, no
>> questions asked.
>> They would not have to fight to get it.
>> I simply cannot imagine a counselor saying that someone has to use the
>> software that the counselor wants them to have.
>> When I hear that stuff, I almost cannot believe it, but I know Butch 
>> well
>> enough to know he wouldn't make that up.
>>
>> Glenn
>> ----- Original Message -----
>> From: "Butch Bussen" <butchb at shellworld.net>
>> To: "Karen Lewellen" <klewellen at shellworld.net>
>> Cc: "K0LNY_Glenn" <glenn at ervin.email>; <speakup at linux-speakup.org>; 
>> "Milan
>> Zamazal" <pdm at zamazal.org>; <Blinux-list at redhat.com>
>> Sent: Tuesday, August 16, 2022 8:18 AM
>> Subject: Re: "Accessibility in Fedora Workstation" (fwd)
>>
>>
>> You are right.? In Nevada, freedom pushed jaws to the rehab people and
>> took them out for steak diners and so forth.? I fought like hell to get
>> them to buy window-eyes.
>> 73
>> Butch
>> WA0VJR
>> Node 3148
>> Wallace, ks.
>>
>>
>> On Sun, 14 Aug 2022, Karen Lewellen wrote:
>>
>>> And where do these employers learn about jaws?
>>> In fact, provide if you do not mind an example of how? this works 
>>> exactly.
>>> after all, unless I am incorrect, these employers are not personal Jaws
>>> users, meaning someone they trust continues to sell them on an 
>>> expensive
>>> program instead of a largely free one.
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> On Sat, 13 Aug 2022, K0LNY_Glenn wrote:
>>>
>>>> ? Karen,
>>>> ? Most employers don't want NVDA, and will only allow Jaws.
>>>> ? In Nebraska, if an employer said put on whatever works, the 
>>>> counselors
>>>> ? will
>>>> ? use NVDA, because of the cost of Jaws.
>>>> ? If some of the clients in a call center already use Jaws, but 
>>>> don't know
>>>> ? NVDA, the counselor will use Jaws, because the other clients will 
>>>> need
>>>> to
>>>> ? learn one of the two.
>>>> ? So it's all choice, but in the workplace, it depends on what the
>>>> employer
>>>> ? will allow.
>>>> ? Also, sometimes scripts need to be made, and there are more Jaws
>>>> scripters
>>>> ? available than there are NVDA add-on writers.
>>>> ? So this perception that Jaws is forced by rehab, from my 31 years 
>>>> in the
>>>> ? business I can say is rubbish.
>>>> ? Now, if a counselor did not know how to use NVDA, and either may be
>>>> ? chosen,
>>>> ? the rehab counselor is able to select the one that the counselor 
>>>> feels
>>>> is
>>>> ? best for the student and for the counselor's teaching.
>>>> ? When it comes to part B moneys, which is used for non-vocational
>>>> ? purchases,
>>>> ? where a lot of Jaws purchases come from, it is in the agency's best
>>>> ? interest
>>>> ? to spend as little as possible, because that doesn't come back 
>>>> like VR
>>>> ? expenditures do.
>>>> ? Glenn
>>>>
>>>> ? ----- Original Message -----
>>>> ? From: "Karen Lewellen" <klewellen at shellworld.net>
>>>> ? To: "K0LNY_Glenn" <glenn at ervin.email>
>>>> ? Cc: <speakup at linux-speakup.org>; "Milan Zamazal" <pdm at zamazal.org>;
>>>> ? <Blinux-list at redhat.com>
>>>> ? Sent: Saturday, August 13, 2022 6:15 PM
>>>> ? Subject: Re: "Accessibility in Fedora Workstation" (fwd)
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> ? The challenge with that example is that, as one often gets reminded,
>>>> the
>>>> ? rehab systems track record for facilitating? employment for their
>>>> clients
>>>> ? is quite poor.
>>>> ? With a high percentage of unemployment among our clients. Making,
>>>> ? speaking personally, your buying Jaws for personal use not really
>>>> ? reflecting how the system would respond to an alternative request.
>>>> ? Now if someone from organized rehab said, okay freedom 
>>>> scientific, we
>>>> are
>>>> ? creating an employment program where our clients will train in 
>>>> Linux,
>>>> ? needing a solid screen reader solution for the system.? We will 
>>>> give you
>>>> ? an
>>>> ? exclusive development contract for s millions to create the tool.
>>>> ? Fs would likely say where do we sign?
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> ? On Sat, 13 Aug 2022, K0LNY_Glenn wrote:
>>>>
>>>>> ? True enough, but largely, rehab people typically use Windows at 
>>>>> work,
>>>>> ? and
>>>>> ? probably at home, but they need to cater to the needs of the 
>>>>> client.
>>>>> ? If a client used Linux, I doubt that any rehab counselor would
>>>>> advocate
>>>>> ? that
>>>>> ? the client switch to Windows, unless that was needed for a specific
>>>>> job.
>>>>> ? In Nebraska, we purchased Jaws much more for personal use than 
>>>>> we did
>>>>> ? for
>>>>> ? work related situations.
>>>>> ? So if FS made a JFL, and people were using Linux, rehab would 
>>>>> indeed
>>>>> ? purchase a JFL product.
>>>>> ? Glenn
>>>>> ? ----- Original Message -----
>>>>> ? From: "Karen Lewellen" <klewellen at shellworld.net>
>>>>> ? To: "K0LNY_Glenn" <glenn at ervin.email>
>>>>> ? Cc: <speakup at linux-speakup.org>; "Milan Zamazal" <pdm at zamazal.org>;
>>>>> ? <Blinux-list at redhat.com>
>>>>> ? Sent: Saturday, August 13, 2022 3:01 PM
>>>>> ? Subject: Re: "Accessibility in Fedora Workstation" (fwd)
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> ? there was an interesting discussion a month or so back on the 
>>>>> blinux
>>>>> ? list
>>>>> ? about how long it took completing tasks in the gui as apposed to 
>>>>> say
>>>>> ? command line,? the comments were quite informative.
>>>>> ? Still, fs has never marketed largely to the end user. Instead they
>>>>> ? market
>>>>> ? to the American rehab community.
>>>>> ? how much market research has? the rehab community done to 
>>>>> support the
>>>>> ? need
>>>>> ? for choices?
>>>>> ? How many rehab counselors support? training in Linux?
>>>>> ? one comment made by the subject of this thread about poor quality
>>>>> speech
>>>>> ? is a fine one...out of the box Linux has few speech choices.? 
>>>>> everyone
>>>>> ? brings their needs to the table there.
>>>>>
>>>>> ? if you want to get fs to care about Linux, you? need to prove 
>>>>> there is
>>>>> ? money for? them there, from their main source of income.
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> ? On Sat, 13 Aug 2022, K0LNY_Glenn wrote:
>>>>>
>>>>>> ? Well since Orca seems to work on so many distros, I don't know why
>>>>>> FS
>>>>>> ? would
>>>>>> ? not be able to do the same.
>>>>>> ? If Jaws users could switch into Linux, it would be a real game
>>>>>> ? changer,
>>>>>> ? and
>>>>>> ? I think with lots more Blind Linux users, we would start seeing
>>>>>> ? accessibility in Linux not being a second thought.
>>>>>> ? Glenn
>>>>>> ? ----- Original Message -----
>>>>>> ? From: "Karen Lewellen" <klewellen at shellworld.net>
>>>>>> ? To: "K0LNY_Glenn" <glenn at ervin.email>
>>>>>> ? Cc: <speakup at linux-speakup.org>; "Milan Zamazal" 
>>>>>> <pdm at zamazal.org>;
>>>>>> ? <Blinux-list at redhat.com>
>>>>>> ? Sent: Saturday, August 13, 2022 1:47 PM
>>>>>> ? Subject: Re: "Accessibility in Fedora Workstation" (fwd)
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>> ? Well technically freedom scientific does not exist any longer, 
>>>>>> being
>>>>>> ? bought
>>>>>> ? by another company.
>>>>>> ? Still, I can respect why they, or nvda have not created their 
>>>>>> tools
>>>>>> ? for
>>>>>> ? Linux.
>>>>>> ? That is because as I understand it, Linux is? quite like clay. You
>>>>>> can
>>>>>> ? mold a distribution into almost anything. there are various
>>>>>> ? personifications of the system, all sorts of ways and changes and
>>>>>> ? options
>>>>>> ? for creativity.
>>>>>> ? however adaptive tools are often extensions of physical
>>>>>> ? characteristics,
>>>>>> ? hands, eyes, ears, brains, combinations of these.
>>>>>> ? To build solid assistive tools one must have a solid foundation as
>>>>>> it
>>>>>> ? were.? that is part of why there have needed to be so few Apple
>>>>>> ? efforts
>>>>>> ? at
>>>>>> ? inclusion, they? created? with, and then created in-house adaptive
>>>>>> ? tools
>>>>>> ? for various? populations that were built into the system.
>>>>>> ? Although Microsoft did not bother until much later, in theory at
>>>>>> ? least,
>>>>>> ? the
>>>>>> ? consistency of windows is what makes it possible for freedom or 
>>>>>> the
>>>>>> ? former
>>>>>> ? gw? micro or nvda to create something that can in theory? work.
>>>>>> ? Floor for the furniture is somewhat solid.
>>>>>> ? Just my thoughts,
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>> ? On Sat, 13 Aug 2022, K0LNY_Glenn wrote:
>>>>>>
>>>>>>> ? I would like to see Freedom Scientific make a Jaws For Linux.
>>>>>>> ? JFL
>>>>>>> ? I'd certainly pay the yearly rental fee for it, and it would 
>>>>>>> bring
>>>>>>> ? many
>>>>>>> ? more
>>>>>>> ? users into Linux.
>>>>>>> ? FS could, with its resources, possibly make it more robust than
>>>>>>> ? Orca.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> ? Glenn
>>>>>>> ? ----- Original Message -----
>>>>>>> ? From: "Milan Zamazal" <pdm at zamazal.org>
>>>>>>> ? To: <speakup at linux-speakup.org>
>>>>>>> ? Cc: <Blinux-list at redhat.com>
>>>>>>> ? Sent: Saturday, August 13, 2022 12:08 PM
>>>>>>> ? Subject: Re: "Accessibility in Fedora Workstation" (fwd)
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>> ? "KL" == Karen Lewellen <klewellen at shellworld.net>
>>>>>>>>>>>> writes:
>>>>>>> KL>? What bothers me most are his lack of actual qualifications,
>>>>>>> and
>>>>>>> KL>? absolute dismissal of what he has not experienced..as if he
>>>>>>> KL>? defines Linux usage for everyone.? That attitude is dangerous,
>>>>>>> KL>? because he is educating those outside of the accessibility
>>>>>>> KL>? experiences, who will believe his ignorance is factual.? he
>>>>>>> has
>>>>>>> KL>? to be expert, it is his job.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> ? Hi Karen,
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> ? I know Lukas personally and I admire his skills and
>>>>>>> qualifications.
>>>>>>> ? I
>>>>>>> ? also know first hand that he is open to constructive feedback and
>>>>>>> I
>>>>>>> ? believe he??Td be happy to be corrected about possible technical
>>>>>>> ? inaccuracies in the interview.? It may be also a good opportunity
>>>>>>> to
>>>>>>> ? find out what??Ts possibly missing in making anybody better
>>>>>>> ? informed.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> ? As for ??oabsolute dismissal of what he has not experienced???,
>>>>>>> what
>>>>>>> ? reasonable free software alternatives to a less or more standard
>>>>>>> ? desktop
>>>>>>> ? with Orca and a software synthesizer can you see for a common
>>>>>>> blind
>>>>>>> ? user
>>>>>>> ? who needs to use a fully working web browser, to read and process
>>>>>>> ? text
>>>>>>> ? documents, to be compatible with other computer users, etc.?
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> ? And let??Ts be realistic.? We celebrate every single developer
>>>>>>> hired
>>>>>>> ? to
>>>>>>> ? improve accessibility.? This tells something about the state of
>>>>>>> the
>>>>>>> ? matters.? We cannot expect that a single person will fix all the
>>>>>>> ? kinds
>>>>>>> ? of accessibility problems in all the environments. Lukas works at
>>>>>>> ? his
>>>>>>> ? job focusing on certain areas currently seen there as urgent ones
>>>>>>> ? and I
>>>>>>> ? appreciate this opportunity.? Anybody else seeing a need to work
>>>>>>> on
>>>>>>> ? other areas is welcome to contribute to whatever sees fit, as I
>>>>>>> do.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> ? Regards,
>>>>>>> ? Milan
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>
>>
>
> _______________________________________________
> Blinux-list mailing list
> Blinux-list at redhat.com
> https://listman.redhat.com/mailman/listinfo/blinux-list

"Accessibility in Fedora Workstation" (fwd)

[blinux-list]

Hello,

Linux for blind general discussion, le mar. 16 ao?t 2022 18:11:14 +0100, a ecrit:
> But just as web browsers are updated for security. I'd like to see
> A11Y stuff updated as well.

Backports are available in Debian, to get the latest atspi&orca releases
installed on a stable system. No backports of the whole gnome desktop,
though (that would be a dependency hell).

Samuel

"Accessibility in Fedora Workstation" (fwd)

[blinux-list]

Well, First of all, for maybe a week, whenever Karen is posting on this topic, 
I am receiving a total of 2 messages, 1 with her name-and-1 from the list. Are 
these going to multiple lists? 2nd, while I have had issues with some NFB
  philosophy, I think their creation of NFB Newsline was quite a helpful 
service. 3rd, since Speakup is in a kernel, are their commands in Debian to 
refresh any missing files which belong in /etc or .speakup? speakup-doc and 
speakup-tools are practicly an only packages you can manage in an apt-get. 
Thanks in advance
Chime

"Accessibility in Fedora Workstation" (fwd)

[blinux-list]

Glenn,
let me see.
The NFB once tried to get  New York state to stop providing services to 
individuals using   service animals.
For a time you could not get services there if  using paratransit.
In the state of Wisconsin a blind child drowned at a NFB summer camp, 
because the teacher thought  they were providing Nfb philosophy swimming 
training...no suite from the blind parents, their kid died for the NfB 
cause.
And from my personal experience, because of  both Nfb stance and other 
perspectives  after I was accepted into Georgetown law school and catholic 
University school of law, the state of Arkansas would not buy me a 
computer....at all.
And of course there are the cult like practices at Nfb training centers 
where individuals are expected to cut off ties with their families, are 
forced to become blind by the organizations definition, and discouraged 
from even using  sighted help when shopping unless the help is paid.
do not ever suggest that the NfB  philosophy has provided anything 
uniformly  respectable for anyone.
Oh, the labor laws they violate in the state of Maryland...the more I 
write the more examples I  can recall.
Lord when I worked for Xerox, it was the newly blinded I would meet being 
told they were not good blind people if their canes looked different by 
Nfb standards
Karen



On Tue, 16 Aug 2022, John G. Heim wrote:

> Holy cow! Are you aware that the NFB once asked Microsoft to *NOT* improve 
> Narrator to the point where it would compete with Jaws? If you think the NFB 
> is incapable of forcing choices on people, you are very sadly mistaken.
>
>
>
> On 8/16/22 09:36, K0LNY_Glenn wrote:
>>  This sort of thing would never happen in Nebraska, or any state where the
>>  agency staff is of the NFB philosophy.
>>  Say what you want about the NFB, no organization is without its problems,
>>  but it is the core philosophy that formed the NFB that knows that society
>>  has low expectations of the Blind, and this is why the NFB believes in
>>  skills and high expectations.
>>  And with that, comes giving respect to the Blind, like the respect of
>>  choice.
>>  Yeah I know about the information of recent about NFB abuse, but this is
>>  organizational issues, unrelated to the philosophy.  In fact, the fact
>>  that
>>  it has come up demonstrates that the NFB is no different than any other
>>  organization in interpersonal staff issues.
>>  And choice does not mean training center choices.
>>  Choice isn't always an option, just like if you took a vocational course
>>  in
>>  college, there are things you have to take, so to me, the lack of choice
>>  in
>>  this regard is different than computer software, where all the choices
>>  will
>>  reach the same end result.
>>  In states where the NFB philosophy is embraced, if a client said I want to
>>  use a Mac, or I want Window Eyes, then that is what they would get, no
>>  questions asked.
>>  They would not have to fight to get it.
>>  I simply cannot imagine a counselor saying that someone has to use the
>>  software that the counselor wants them to have.
>>  When I hear that stuff, I almost cannot believe it, but I know Butch well
>>  enough to know he wouldn't make that up.
>>
>>  Glenn
>>  ----- Original Message -----
>>  From: "Butch Bussen" <butchb at shellworld.net>
>>  To: "Karen Lewellen" <klewellen at shellworld.net>
>>  Cc: "K0LNY_Glenn" <glenn at ervin.email>; <speakup at linux-speakup.org>; "Milan
>>  Zamazal" <pdm at zamazal.org>; <Blinux-list at redhat.com>
>>  Sent: Tuesday, August 16, 2022 8:18 AM
>>  Subject: Re: "Accessibility in Fedora Workstation" (fwd)
>> 
>>
>>  You are right.  In Nevada, freedom pushed jaws to the rehab people and
>>  took them out for steak diners and so forth.  I fought like hell to get
>>  them to buy window-eyes.
>>  73
>>  Butch
>>  WA0VJR
>>  Node 3148
>>  Wallace, ks.
>> 
>>
>>  On Sun, 14 Aug 2022, Karen Lewellen wrote:
>> 
>> >  And where do these employers learn about jaws?
>> >  In fact, provide if you do not mind an example of how  this works 
>> >  exactly.
>> >  after all, unless I am incorrect, these employers are not personal Jaws
>> >  users, meaning someone they trust continues to sell them on an expensive
>> >  program instead of a largely free one.
>> > 
>> > 
>> > 
>> >  On Sat, 13 Aug 2022, K0LNY_Glenn wrote:
>> > 
>> > >    Karen,
>> > >    Most employers don't want NVDA, and will only allow Jaws.
>> > >    In Nebraska, if an employer said put on whatever works, the 
>> > >    counselors
>> > >    will
>> > >    use NVDA, because of the cost of Jaws.
>> > >    If some of the clients in a call center already use Jaws, but don't 
>> > >    know
>> > >    NVDA, the counselor will use Jaws, because the other clients will 
>> > >    need
>> > >  to
>> > >    learn one of the two.
>> > >    So it's all choice, but in the workplace, it depends on what the
>> > >  employer
>> > >    will allow.
>> > >    Also, sometimes scripts need to be made, and there are more Jaws
>> > >  scripters
>> > >    available than there are NVDA add-on writers.
>> > >    So this perception that Jaws is forced by rehab, from my 31 years in 
>> > >    the
>> > >    business I can say is rubbish.
>> > >    Now, if a counselor did not know how to use NVDA, and either may be
>> > >    chosen,
>> > >    the rehab counselor is able to select the one that the counselor 
>> > >    feels
>> > >  is
>> > >    best for the student and for the counselor's teaching.
>> > >    When it comes to part B moneys, which is used for non-vocational
>> > >    purchases,
>> > >    where a lot of Jaws purchases come from, it is in the agency's best
>> > >    interest
>> > >    to spend as little as possible, because that doesn't come back like 
>> > >    VR
>> > >    expenditures do.
>> > >    Glenn
>> > > 
>> > >    ----- Original Message -----
>> > >    From: "Karen Lewellen" <klewellen at shellworld.net>
>> > >    To: "K0LNY_Glenn" <glenn at ervin.email>
>> > >    Cc: <speakup at linux-speakup.org>; "Milan Zamazal" <pdm at zamazal.org>;
>> > >    <Blinux-list at redhat.com>
>> > >    Sent: Saturday, August 13, 2022 6:15 PM
>> > >    Subject: Re: "Accessibility in Fedora Workstation" (fwd)
>> > > 
>> > > 
>> > >    The challenge with that example is that, as one often gets reminded,
>> > >  the
>> > >    rehab systems track record for facilitating  employment for their
>> > >  clients
>> > >    is quite poor.
>> > >    With a high percentage of unemployment among our clients.  Making,
>> > >    speaking personally, your buying Jaws for personal use not really
>> > >    reflecting how the system would respond to an alternative request.
>> > >    Now if someone from organized rehab said, okay freedom scientific, 
>> > >    we
>> > >  are
>> > >    creating an employment program where our clients will train in 
>> > >    Linux,
>> > >    needing a solid screen reader solution for the system.  We will give 
>> > >    you
>> > >    an
>> > >    exclusive development contract for s millions to create the tool.
>> > >    Fs would likely say where do we sign?
>> > > 
>> > > 
>> > > 
>> > >    On Sat, 13 Aug 2022, K0LNY_Glenn wrote:
>> > > 
>> > > >    True enough, but largely, rehab people typically use Windows at 
>> > > >    work,
>> > > >    and
>> > > >    probably at home, but they need to cater to the needs of the 
>> > > >    client.
>> > > >    If a client used Linux, I doubt that any rehab counselor would
>> > > >  advocate
>> > > >    that
>> > > >    the client switch to Windows, unless that was needed for a 
>> > > >    specific
>> > > >  job.
>> > > >    In Nebraska, we purchased Jaws much more for personal use than we 
>> > > >    did
>> > > >    for
>> > > >    work related situations.
>> > > >    So if FS made a JFL, and people were using Linux, rehab would 
>> > > >    indeed
>> > > >    purchase a JFL product.
>> > > >    Glenn
>> > > >    ----- Original Message -----
>> > > >    From: "Karen Lewellen" <klewellen at shellworld.net>
>> > > >    To: "K0LNY_Glenn" <glenn at ervin.email>
>> > > >    Cc: <speakup at linux-speakup.org>; "Milan Zamazal" 
>> > > >    <pdm at zamazal.org>;
>> > > >    <Blinux-list at redhat.com>
>> > > >    Sent: Saturday, August 13, 2022 3:01 PM
>> > > >    Subject: Re: "Accessibility in Fedora Workstation" (fwd)
>> > > > 
>> > > > 
>> > > >    there was an interesting discussion a month or so back on the 
>> > > >    blinux
>> > > >    list
>> > > >    about how long it took completing tasks in the gui as apposed to 
>> > > >    say
>> > > >    command line,  the comments were quite informative.
>> > > >    Still, fs has never marketed largely to the end user. Instead they
>> > > >    market
>> > > >    to the American rehab community.
>> > > >    how much market research has  the rehab community done to support 
>> > > >    the
>> > > >    need
>> > > >    for choices?
>> > > >    How many rehab counselors support  training in Linux?
>> > > >    one comment made by the subject of this thread about poor quality
>> > > >  speech
>> > > >    is a fine one...out of the box Linux has few speech choices. 
>> > > >    everyone
>> > > >    brings their needs to the table there.
>> > > > 
>> > > >    if you want to get fs to care about Linux, you  need to prove 
>> > > >    there is
>> > > >    money for  them there, from their main source of income.
>> > > > 
>> > > > 
>> > > > 
>> > > >    On Sat, 13 Aug 2022, K0LNY_Glenn wrote:
>> > > > 
>> > > > >    Well since Orca seems to work on so many distros, I don't know 
>> > > > >  why
>> > > > >  FS
>> > > > >    would
>> > > > >    not be able to do the same.
>> > > > >    If Jaws users could switch into Linux, it would be a real game
>> > > > >    changer,
>> > > > >    and
>> > > > >    I think with lots more Blind Linux users, we would start seeing
>> > > > >    accessibility in Linux not being a second thought.
>> > > > >    Glenn
>> > > > >    ----- Original Message -----
>> > > > >    From: "Karen Lewellen" <klewellen at shellworld.net>
>> > > > >    To: "K0LNY_Glenn" <glenn at ervin.email>
>> > > > >    Cc: <speakup at linux-speakup.org>; "Milan Zamazal" 
>> > > > >    <pdm at zamazal.org>;
>> > > > >    <Blinux-list at redhat.com>
>> > > > >    Sent: Saturday, August 13, 2022 1:47 PM
>> > > > >    Subject: Re: "Accessibility in Fedora Workstation" (fwd)
>> > > > > 
>> > > > > 
>> > > > >    Well technically freedom scientific does not exist any longer, 
>> > > > >    being
>> > > > >    bought
>> > > > >    by another company.
>> > > > >    Still, I can respect why they, or nvda have not created their 
>> > > > >    tools
>> > > > >    for
>> > > > >    Linux.
>> > > > >    That is because as I understand it, Linux is  quite like clay. 
>> > > > >    You
>> > > > >  can
>> > > > >    mold a distribution into almost anything. there are various
>> > > > >    personifications of the system, all sorts of ways and changes 
>> > > > >    and
>> > > > >    options
>> > > > >    for creativity.
>> > > > >    however adaptive tools are often extensions of physical
>> > > > >    characteristics,
>> > > > >    hands, eyes, ears, brains, combinations of these.
>> > > > >    To build solid assistive tools one must have a solid  foundation 
>> > > > >    as
>> > > > >  it
>> > > > >    were.  that is part of why there have needed to be so few Apple
>> > > > >    efforts
>> > > > >    at
>> > > > >    inclusion, they  created  with, and then created in-house 
>> > > > >    adaptive
>> > > > >    tools
>> > > > >    for various  populations that were built into the system.
>> > > > >    Although Microsoft did not bother until much later, in theory at
>> > > > >    least,
>> > > > >    the
>> > > > >    consistency of windows is what makes it possible for freedom or 
>> > > > >    the
>> > > > >    former
>> > > > >    gw  micro or nvda to create something that can in theory  work.
>> > > > >    Floor for the furniture is somewhat solid.
>> > > > >    Just my thoughts,
>> > > > > 
>> > > > > 
>> > > > > 
>> > > > >    On Sat, 13 Aug 2022, K0LNY_Glenn wrote:
>> > > > > 
>> > > > > >    I would like to see Freedom Scientific make a Jaws For Linux.
>> > > > > >    JFL
>> > > > > >    I'd certainly pay the yearly rental fee for it, and it would 
>> > > > > >    bring
>> > > > > >    many
>> > > > > >    more
>> > > > > >    users into Linux.
>> > > > > >    FS could, with its resources, possibly make it more robust 
>> > > > > >    than
>> > > > > >    Orca.
>> > > > > > 
>> > > > > >    Glenn
>> > > > > >    ----- Original Message -----
>> > > > > >    From: "Milan Zamazal" <pdm at zamazal.org>
>> > > > > >    To: <speakup at linux-speakup.org>
>> > > > > >    Cc: <Blinux-list at redhat.com>
>> > > > > >    Sent: Saturday, August 13, 2022 12:08 PM
>> > > > > >    Subject: Re: "Accessibility in Fedora Workstation" (fwd)
>> > > > > > 
>> > > > > > 
>> > > > > > > > > > >    "KL" == Karen Lewellen <klewellen at shellworld.net>
>> > > > > > > > > > >  writes:
>> > > > > >  KL>  What bothers me most are his lack of actual qualifications,
>> > > > > >  and
>> > > > > > KL>   absolute dismissal of what he has not experienced..as if he
>> > > > > > KL>   defines Linux usage for everyone.  That attitude is 
>> > > > > > KL>   dangerous,
>> > > > > > KL>   because he is educating those outside of the accessibility
>> > > > > > KL>   experiences, who will believe his ignorance is factual.  he
>> > > > > >  has
>> > > > > >  KL>  to be expert, it is his job.
>> > > > > > 
>> > > > > >    Hi Karen,
>> > > > > > 
>> > > > > >    I know Lukas personally and I admire his skills and
>> > > > > >  qualifications.
>> > > > > >    I
>> > > > > >    also know first hand that he is open to constructive feedback 
>> > > > > >    and
>> > > > > >  I
>> > > > > >    believe he??Td be happy to be corrected about possible 
>> > > > > >    technical
>> > > > > >    inaccuracies in the interview.  It may be also a good 
>> > > > > >    opportunity
>> > > > > >  to
>> > > > > >    find out what??Ts possibly missing in making anybody better
>> > > > > >    informed.
>> > > > > > 
>> > > > > >    As for ??oabsolute dismissal of what he has not 
>> > > > > >  experienced???,
>> > > > > >  what
>> > > > > >    reasonable free software alternatives to a less or more 
>> > > > > >    standard
>> > > > > >    desktop
>> > > > > >    with Orca and a software synthesizer can you see for a common
>> > > > > >  blind
>> > > > > >    user
>> > > > > >    who needs to use a fully working web browser, to read and 
>> > > > > >    process
>> > > > > >    text
>> > > > > >    documents, to be compatible with other computer users, etc.?
>> > > > > > 
>> > > > > >    And let??Ts be realistic.  We celebrate every single 
>> > > > > >  developer
>> > > > > >  hired
>> > > > > >    to
>> > > > > >    improve accessibility.  This tells something about the state 
>> > > > > >    of
>> > > > > >  the
>> > > > > >    matters.  We cannot expect that a single person will fix all 
>> > > > > >    the
>> > > > > >    kinds
>> > > > > >    of accessibility problems in all the environments.  Lukas 
>> > > > > >    works at
>> > > > > >    his
>> > > > > >    job focusing on certain areas currently seen there as urgent 
>> > > > > >    ones
>> > > > > >    and I
>> > > > > >    appreciate this opportunity.  Anybody else seeing a need to 
>> > > > > >    work
>> > > > > >  on
>> > > > > >    other areas is welcome to contribute to whatever sees fit, as 
>> > > > > >  I
>> > > > > >  do.
>> > > > > > 
>> > > > > >    Regards,
>> > > > > >    Milan
>> > > > > > 
>> > > > > > 
>> > > > > > 
>> > > > > > 
>> > > > > 
>> > > > 
>> > > 
>> 
>
>
>

"Accessibility in Fedora Workstation" (fwd)

[blinux-list]

actually, I have a copy I believe of a speech from a convention where an 
nfb member  stated that built in screen readers were bad for the 
blind...so, I doubt that rumor is false.



On Tue, 16 Aug 2022, K0LNY_Glenn wrote:

> That is hear-say, an old rumor that has been recycled countless times.
> Glenn
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: "John G. Heim" <jheim at wisc.edu>
> To: "K0LNY_Glenn" <glenn at ervin.email>; "Butch Bussen"
> <butchb at shellworld.net>; "Karen Lewellen" <klewellen at shellworld.net>
> Cc: <speakup at linux-speakup.org>; "Milan Zamazal" <pdm at zamazal.org>;
> <Blinux-list at redhat.com>
> Sent: Tuesday, August 16, 2022 11:49 AM
> Subject: Re: "Accessibility in Fedora Workstation" (fwd)
>
>
> Holy cow! Are you aware that the NFB once asked Microsoft to *NOT*
> improve Narrator to the point where it would compete with Jaws? If you
> think the NFB is incapable of forcing choices on people, you are very
> sadly mistaken.
>
>
>
> On 8/16/22 09:36, K0LNY_Glenn wrote:
>> This sort of thing would never happen in Nebraska, or any state where the
>> agency staff is of the NFB philosophy.
>> Say what you want about the NFB, no organization is without its problems,
>> but it is the core philosophy that formed the NFB that knows that society
>> has low expectations of the Blind, and this is why the NFB believes in
>> skills and high expectations.
>> And with that, comes giving respect to the Blind, like the respect of
>> choice.
>> Yeah I know about the information of recent about NFB abuse, but this is
>> organizational issues, unrelated to the philosophy.  In fact, the fact
>> that
>> it has come up demonstrates that the NFB is no different than any other
>> organization in interpersonal staff issues.
>> And choice does not mean training center choices.
>> Choice isn't always an option, just like if you took a vocational course
>> in
>> college, there are things you have to take, so to me, the lack of choice
>> in
>> this regard is different than computer software, where all the choices
>> will
>> reach the same end result.
>> In states where the NFB philosophy is embraced, if a client said I want to
>> use a Mac, or I want Window Eyes, then that is what they would get, no
>> questions asked.
>> They would not have to fight to get it.
>> I simply cannot imagine a counselor saying that someone has to use the
>> software that the counselor wants them to have.
>> When I hear that stuff, I almost cannot believe it, but I know Butch well
>> enough to know he wouldn't make that up.
>>
>> Glenn
>> ----- Original Message -----
>> From: "Butch Bussen" <butchb at shellworld.net>
>> To: "Karen Lewellen" <klewellen at shellworld.net>
>> Cc: "K0LNY_Glenn" <glenn at ervin.email>; <speakup at linux-speakup.org>; "Milan
>> Zamazal" <pdm at zamazal.org>; <Blinux-list at redhat.com>
>> Sent: Tuesday, August 16, 2022 8:18 AM
>> Subject: Re: "Accessibility in Fedora Workstation" (fwd)
>>
>>
>> You are right.  In Nevada, freedom pushed jaws to the rehab people and
>> took them out for steak diners and so forth.  I fought like hell to get
>> them to buy window-eyes.
>> 73
>> Butch
>> WA0VJR
>> Node 3148
>> Wallace, ks.
>>
>>
>> On Sun, 14 Aug 2022, Karen Lewellen wrote:
>>
>>> And where do these employers learn about jaws?
>>> In fact, provide if you do not mind an example of how  this works
>>> exactly.
>>> after all, unless I am incorrect, these employers are not personal Jaws
>>> users, meaning someone they trust continues to sell them on an expensive
>>> program instead of a largely free one.
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> On Sat, 13 Aug 2022, K0LNY_Glenn wrote:
>>>
>>>>   Karen,
>>>>   Most employers don't want NVDA, and will only allow Jaws.
>>>>   In Nebraska, if an employer said put on whatever works, the counselors
>>>>   will
>>>>   use NVDA, because of the cost of Jaws.
>>>>   If some of the clients in a call center already use Jaws, but don't
>>>> know
>>>>   NVDA, the counselor will use Jaws, because the other clients will need
>>>> to
>>>>   learn one of the two.
>>>>   So it's all choice, but in the workplace, it depends on what the
>>>> employer
>>>>   will allow.
>>>>   Also, sometimes scripts need to be made, and there are more Jaws
>>>> scripters
>>>>   available than there are NVDA add-on writers.
>>>>   So this perception that Jaws is forced by rehab, from my 31 years in
>>>> the
>>>>   business I can say is rubbish.
>>>>   Now, if a counselor did not know how to use NVDA, and either may be
>>>>   chosen,
>>>>   the rehab counselor is able to select the one that the counselor feels
>>>> is
>>>>   best for the student and for the counselor's teaching.
>>>>   When it comes to part B moneys, which is used for non-vocational
>>>>   purchases,
>>>>   where a lot of Jaws purchases come from, it is in the agency's best
>>>>   interest
>>>>   to spend as little as possible, because that doesn't come back like VR
>>>>   expenditures do.
>>>>   Glenn
>>>>
>>>>   ----- Original Message -----
>>>>   From: "Karen Lewellen" <klewellen at shellworld.net>
>>>>   To: "K0LNY_Glenn" <glenn at ervin.email>
>>>>   Cc: <speakup at linux-speakup.org>; "Milan Zamazal" <pdm at zamazal.org>;
>>>>   <Blinux-list at redhat.com>
>>>>   Sent: Saturday, August 13, 2022 6:15 PM
>>>>   Subject: Re: "Accessibility in Fedora Workstation" (fwd)
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>   The challenge with that example is that, as one often gets reminded,
>>>> the
>>>>   rehab systems track record for facilitating  employment for their
>>>> clients
>>>>   is quite poor.
>>>>   With a high percentage of unemployment among our clients.  Making,
>>>>   speaking personally, your buying Jaws for personal use not really
>>>>   reflecting how the system would respond to an alternative request.
>>>>   Now if someone from organized rehab said, okay freedom scientific, we
>>>> are
>>>>   creating an employment program where our clients will train in Linux,
>>>>   needing a solid screen reader solution for the system.  We will give
>>>> you
>>>>   an
>>>>   exclusive development contract for s millions to create the tool.
>>>>   Fs would likely say where do we sign?
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>   On Sat, 13 Aug 2022, K0LNY_Glenn wrote:
>>>>
>>>>>   True enough, but largely, rehab people typically use Windows at work,
>>>>>   and
>>>>>   probably at home, but they need to cater to the needs of the client.
>>>>>   If a client used Linux, I doubt that any rehab counselor would
>>>>> advocate
>>>>>   that
>>>>>   the client switch to Windows, unless that was needed for a specific
>>>>> job.
>>>>>   In Nebraska, we purchased Jaws much more for personal use than we did
>>>>>   for
>>>>>   work related situations.
>>>>>   So if FS made a JFL, and people were using Linux, rehab would indeed
>>>>>   purchase a JFL product.
>>>>>   Glenn
>>>>>   ----- Original Message -----
>>>>>   From: "Karen Lewellen" <klewellen at shellworld.net>
>>>>>   To: "K0LNY_Glenn" <glenn at ervin.email>
>>>>>   Cc: <speakup at linux-speakup.org>; "Milan Zamazal" <pdm at zamazal.org>;
>>>>>   <Blinux-list at redhat.com>
>>>>>   Sent: Saturday, August 13, 2022 3:01 PM
>>>>>   Subject: Re: "Accessibility in Fedora Workstation" (fwd)
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>   there was an interesting discussion a month or so back on the blinux
>>>>>   list
>>>>>   about how long it took completing tasks in the gui as apposed to say
>>>>>   command line,  the comments were quite informative.
>>>>>   Still, fs has never marketed largely to the end user. Instead they
>>>>>   market
>>>>>   to the American rehab community.
>>>>>   how much market research has  the rehab community done to support the
>>>>>   need
>>>>>   for choices?
>>>>>   How many rehab counselors support  training in Linux?
>>>>>   one comment made by the subject of this thread about poor quality
>>>>> speech
>>>>>   is a fine one...out of the box Linux has few speech choices.
>>>>> everyone
>>>>>   brings their needs to the table there.
>>>>>
>>>>>   if you want to get fs to care about Linux, you  need to prove there
>>>>> is
>>>>>   money for  them there, from their main source of income.
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>   On Sat, 13 Aug 2022, K0LNY_Glenn wrote:
>>>>>
>>>>>>   Well since Orca seems to work on so many distros, I don't know why
>>>>>> FS
>>>>>>   would
>>>>>>   not be able to do the same.
>>>>>>   If Jaws users could switch into Linux, it would be a real game
>>>>>>   changer,
>>>>>>   and
>>>>>>   I think with lots more Blind Linux users, we would start seeing
>>>>>>   accessibility in Linux not being a second thought.
>>>>>>   Glenn
>>>>>>   ----- Original Message -----
>>>>>>   From: "Karen Lewellen" <klewellen at shellworld.net>
>>>>>>   To: "K0LNY_Glenn" <glenn at ervin.email>
>>>>>>   Cc: <speakup at linux-speakup.org>; "Milan Zamazal" <pdm at zamazal.org>;
>>>>>>   <Blinux-list at redhat.com>
>>>>>>   Sent: Saturday, August 13, 2022 1:47 PM
>>>>>>   Subject: Re: "Accessibility in Fedora Workstation" (fwd)
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>   Well technically freedom scientific does not exist any longer, being
>>>>>>   bought
>>>>>>   by another company.
>>>>>>   Still, I can respect why they, or nvda have not created their tools
>>>>>>   for
>>>>>>   Linux.
>>>>>>   That is because as I understand it, Linux is  quite like clay. You
>>>>>> can
>>>>>>   mold a distribution into almost anything. there are various
>>>>>>   personifications of the system, all sorts of ways and changes and
>>>>>>   options
>>>>>>   for creativity.
>>>>>>   however adaptive tools are often extensions of physical
>>>>>>   characteristics,
>>>>>>   hands, eyes, ears, brains, combinations of these.
>>>>>>   To build solid assistive tools one must have a solid  foundation as
>>>>>> it
>>>>>>   were.  that is part of why there have needed to be so few Apple
>>>>>>   efforts
>>>>>>   at
>>>>>>   inclusion, they  created  with, and then created in-house adaptive
>>>>>>   tools
>>>>>>   for various  populations that were built into the system.
>>>>>>   Although Microsoft did not bother until much later, in theory at
>>>>>>   least,
>>>>>>   the
>>>>>>   consistency of windows is what makes it possible for freedom or the
>>>>>>   former
>>>>>>   gw  micro or nvda to create something that can in theory  work.
>>>>>>   Floor for the furniture is somewhat solid.
>>>>>>   Just my thoughts,
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>   On Sat, 13 Aug 2022, K0LNY_Glenn wrote:
>>>>>>
>>>>>>>   I would like to see Freedom Scientific make a Jaws For Linux.
>>>>>>>   JFL
>>>>>>>   I'd certainly pay the yearly rental fee for it, and it would bring
>>>>>>>   many
>>>>>>>   more
>>>>>>>   users into Linux.
>>>>>>>   FS could, with its resources, possibly make it more robust than
>>>>>>>   Orca.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>   Glenn
>>>>>>>   ----- Original Message -----
>>>>>>>   From: "Milan Zamazal" <pdm at zamazal.org>
>>>>>>>   To: <speakup at linux-speakup.org>
>>>>>>>   Cc: <Blinux-list at redhat.com>
>>>>>>>   Sent: Saturday, August 13, 2022 12:08 PM
>>>>>>>   Subject: Re: "Accessibility in Fedora Workstation" (fwd)
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>   "KL" == Karen Lewellen <klewellen at shellworld.net>
>>>>>>>>>>>> writes:
>>>>>>> KL>  What bothers me most are his lack of actual qualifications,
>>>>>>> and
>>>>>>> KL>  absolute dismissal of what he has not experienced..as if he
>>>>>>> KL>  defines Linux usage for everyone.  That attitude is dangerous,
>>>>>>> KL>  because he is educating those outside of the accessibility
>>>>>>> KL>  experiences, who will believe his ignorance is factual.  he
>>>>>>> has
>>>>>>> KL>  to be expert, it is his job.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>   Hi Karen,
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>   I know Lukas personally and I admire his skills and
>>>>>>> qualifications.
>>>>>>>   I
>>>>>>>   also know first hand that he is open to constructive feedback and
>>>>>>> I
>>>>>>>   believe he??Td be happy to be corrected about possible technical
>>>>>>>   inaccuracies in the interview.  It may be also a good opportunity
>>>>>>> to
>>>>>>>   find out what??Ts possibly missing in making anybody better
>>>>>>>   informed.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>   As for ??oabsolute dismissal of what he has not experienced???,
>>>>>>> what
>>>>>>>   reasonable free software alternatives to a less or more standard
>>>>>>>   desktop
>>>>>>>   with Orca and a software synthesizer can you see for a common
>>>>>>> blind
>>>>>>>   user
>>>>>>>   who needs to use a fully working web browser, to read and process
>>>>>>>   text
>>>>>>>   documents, to be compatible with other computer users, etc.?
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>   And let??Ts be realistic.  We celebrate every single developer
>>>>>>> hired
>>>>>>>   to
>>>>>>>   improve accessibility.  This tells something about the state of
>>>>>>> the
>>>>>>>   matters.  We cannot expect that a single person will fix all the
>>>>>>>   kinds
>>>>>>>   of accessibility problems in all the environments.  Lukas works at
>>>>>>>   his
>>>>>>>   job focusing on certain areas currently seen there as urgent ones
>>>>>>>   and I
>>>>>>>   appreciate this opportunity.  Anybody else seeing a need to work
>>>>>>> on
>>>>>>>   other areas is welcome to contribute to whatever sees fit, as I
>>>>>>> do.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>   Regards,
>>>>>>>   Milan
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>
>>
>
>

"Accessibility in Fedora Workstation" (fwd)

[blinux-list]

Actually, I'd like to know where you got the idea that it's just a 
rumor. It is not. I was personally involved at the time, arguing 
strenuously against the policy. I can give you names of people at the 
NFB who backed the policy if you'd like.

The NFB's reasoning was that a free screen reader would not be as good 
as one you had to pay for. They reasoned that Microsoft had little 
motivation to keep on improving their screen reader but it might be 
enough to drive Freedom Scientific out of business. As a Linux user, I 
felt that reasoning was flawed mainly because I felt free, open source? 
screen readers were right around the corner anyway. I believe I was 
using Speakup and something called Nupernicus on Linux at the time.

This is absolutely not a rumor.


On 8/16/22 12:31, K0LNY_Glenn wrote:
> That is hear-say, an old rumor that has been recycled countless times.
> Glenn
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: "John G. Heim" <jheim at wisc.edu>
> To: "K0LNY_Glenn" <glenn at ervin.email>; "Butch Bussen"
> <butchb at shellworld.net>; "Karen Lewellen" <klewellen at shellworld.net>
> Cc: <speakup at linux-speakup.org>; "Milan Zamazal" <pdm at zamazal.org>;
> <Blinux-list at redhat.com>
> Sent: Tuesday, August 16, 2022 11:49 AM
> Subject: Re: "Accessibility in Fedora Workstation" (fwd)
>
>
> Holy cow! Are you aware that the NFB once asked Microsoft to *NOT*
> improve Narrator to the point where it would compete with Jaws? If you
> think the NFB is incapable of forcing choices on people, you are very
> sadly mistaken.
>
>
>
> On 8/16/22 09:36, K0LNY_Glenn wrote:
>> This sort of thing would never happen in Nebraska, or any state where the
>> agency staff is of the NFB philosophy.
>> Say what you want about the NFB, no organization is without its problems,
>> but it is the core philosophy that formed the NFB that knows that society
>> has low expectations of the Blind, and this is why the NFB believes in
>> skills and high expectations.
>> And with that, comes giving respect to the Blind, like the respect of
>> choice.
>> Yeah I know about the information of recent about NFB abuse, but this is
>> organizational issues, unrelated to the philosophy.  In fact, the fact
>> that
>> it has come up demonstrates that the NFB is no different than any other
>> organization in interpersonal staff issues.
>> And choice does not mean training center choices.
>> Choice isn't always an option, just like if you took a vocational course
>> in
>> college, there are things you have to take, so to me, the lack of choice
>> in
>> this regard is different than computer software, where all the choices
>> will
>> reach the same end result.
>> In states where the NFB philosophy is embraced, if a client said I want to
>> use a Mac, or I want Window Eyes, then that is what they would get, no
>> questions asked.
>> They would not have to fight to get it.
>> I simply cannot imagine a counselor saying that someone has to use the
>> software that the counselor wants them to have.
>> When I hear that stuff, I almost cannot believe it, but I know Butch well
>> enough to know he wouldn't make that up.
>>
>> Glenn
>> ----- Original Message -----
>> From: "Butch Bussen" <butchb at shellworld.net>
>> To: "Karen Lewellen" <klewellen at shellworld.net>
>> Cc: "K0LNY_Glenn" <glenn at ervin.email>; <speakup at linux-speakup.org>; "Milan
>> Zamazal" <pdm at zamazal.org>; <Blinux-list at redhat.com>
>> Sent: Tuesday, August 16, 2022 8:18 AM
>> Subject: Re: "Accessibility in Fedora Workstation" (fwd)
>>
>>
>> You are right.  In Nevada, freedom pushed jaws to the rehab people and
>> took them out for steak diners and so forth.  I fought like hell to get
>> them to buy window-eyes.
>> 73
>> Butch
>> WA0VJR
>> Node 3148
>> Wallace, ks.
>>
>>
>> On Sun, 14 Aug 2022, Karen Lewellen wrote:
>>
>>> And where do these employers learn about jaws?
>>> In fact, provide if you do not mind an example of how  this works
>>> exactly.
>>> after all, unless I am incorrect, these employers are not personal Jaws
>>> users, meaning someone they trust continues to sell them on an expensive
>>> program instead of a largely free one.
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> On Sat, 13 Aug 2022, K0LNY_Glenn wrote:
>>>
>>>>    Karen,
>>>>    Most employers don't want NVDA, and will only allow Jaws.
>>>>    In Nebraska, if an employer said put on whatever works, the counselors
>>>>    will
>>>>    use NVDA, because of the cost of Jaws.
>>>>    If some of the clients in a call center already use Jaws, but don't
>>>> know
>>>>    NVDA, the counselor will use Jaws, because the other clients will need
>>>> to
>>>>    learn one of the two.
>>>>    So it's all choice, but in the workplace, it depends on what the
>>>> employer
>>>>    will allow.
>>>>    Also, sometimes scripts need to be made, and there are more Jaws
>>>> scripters
>>>>    available than there are NVDA add-on writers.
>>>>    So this perception that Jaws is forced by rehab, from my 31 years in
>>>> the
>>>>    business I can say is rubbish.
>>>>    Now, if a counselor did not know how to use NVDA, and either may be
>>>>    chosen,
>>>>    the rehab counselor is able to select the one that the counselor feels
>>>> is
>>>>    best for the student and for the counselor's teaching.
>>>>    When it comes to part B moneys, which is used for non-vocational
>>>>    purchases,
>>>>    where a lot of Jaws purchases come from, it is in the agency's best
>>>>    interest
>>>>    to spend as little as possible, because that doesn't come back like VR
>>>>    expenditures do.
>>>>    Glenn
>>>>
>>>>    ----- Original Message -----
>>>>    From: "Karen Lewellen" <klewellen at shellworld.net>
>>>>    To: "K0LNY_Glenn" <glenn at ervin.email>
>>>>    Cc: <speakup at linux-speakup.org>; "Milan Zamazal" <pdm at zamazal.org>;
>>>>    <Blinux-list at redhat.com>
>>>>    Sent: Saturday, August 13, 2022 6:15 PM
>>>>    Subject: Re: "Accessibility in Fedora Workstation" (fwd)
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>    The challenge with that example is that, as one often gets reminded,
>>>> the
>>>>    rehab systems track record for facilitating  employment for their
>>>> clients
>>>>    is quite poor.
>>>>    With a high percentage of unemployment among our clients.  Making,
>>>>    speaking personally, your buying Jaws for personal use not really
>>>>    reflecting how the system would respond to an alternative request.
>>>>    Now if someone from organized rehab said, okay freedom scientific, we
>>>> are
>>>>    creating an employment program where our clients will train in Linux,
>>>>    needing a solid screen reader solution for the system.  We will give
>>>> you
>>>>    an
>>>>    exclusive development contract for s millions to create the tool.
>>>>    Fs would likely say where do we sign?
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>    On Sat, 13 Aug 2022, K0LNY_Glenn wrote:
>>>>
>>>>>    True enough, but largely, rehab people typically use Windows at work,
>>>>>    and
>>>>>    probably at home, but they need to cater to the needs of the client.
>>>>>    If a client used Linux, I doubt that any rehab counselor would
>>>>> advocate
>>>>>    that
>>>>>    the client switch to Windows, unless that was needed for a specific
>>>>> job.
>>>>>    In Nebraska, we purchased Jaws much more for personal use than we did
>>>>>    for
>>>>>    work related situations.
>>>>>    So if FS made a JFL, and people were using Linux, rehab would indeed
>>>>>    purchase a JFL product.
>>>>>    Glenn
>>>>>    ----- Original Message -----
>>>>>    From: "Karen Lewellen" <klewellen at shellworld.net>
>>>>>    To: "K0LNY_Glenn" <glenn at ervin.email>
>>>>>    Cc: <speakup at linux-speakup.org>; "Milan Zamazal" <pdm at zamazal.org>;
>>>>>    <Blinux-list at redhat.com>
>>>>>    Sent: Saturday, August 13, 2022 3:01 PM
>>>>>    Subject: Re: "Accessibility in Fedora Workstation" (fwd)
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>    there was an interesting discussion a month or so back on the blinux
>>>>>    list
>>>>>    about how long it took completing tasks in the gui as apposed to say
>>>>>    command line,  the comments were quite informative.
>>>>>    Still, fs has never marketed largely to the end user. Instead they
>>>>>    market
>>>>>    to the American rehab community.
>>>>>    how much market research has  the rehab community done to support the
>>>>>    need
>>>>>    for choices?
>>>>>    How many rehab counselors support  training in Linux?
>>>>>    one comment made by the subject of this thread about poor quality
>>>>> speech
>>>>>    is a fine one...out of the box Linux has few speech choices.
>>>>> everyone
>>>>>    brings their needs to the table there.
>>>>>
>>>>>    if you want to get fs to care about Linux, you  need to prove there
>>>>> is
>>>>>    money for  them there, from their main source of income.
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>    On Sat, 13 Aug 2022, K0LNY_Glenn wrote:
>>>>>
>>>>>>    Well since Orca seems to work on so many distros, I don't know why
>>>>>> FS
>>>>>>    would
>>>>>>    not be able to do the same.
>>>>>>    If Jaws users could switch into Linux, it would be a real game
>>>>>>    changer,
>>>>>>    and
>>>>>>    I think with lots more Blind Linux users, we would start seeing
>>>>>>    accessibility in Linux not being a second thought.
>>>>>>    Glenn
>>>>>>    ----- Original Message -----
>>>>>>    From: "Karen Lewellen" <klewellen at shellworld.net>
>>>>>>    To: "K0LNY_Glenn" <glenn at ervin.email>
>>>>>>    Cc: <speakup at linux-speakup.org>; "Milan Zamazal" <pdm at zamazal.org>;
>>>>>>    <Blinux-list at redhat.com>
>>>>>>    Sent: Saturday, August 13, 2022 1:47 PM
>>>>>>    Subject: Re: "Accessibility in Fedora Workstation" (fwd)
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>    Well technically freedom scientific does not exist any longer, being
>>>>>>    bought
>>>>>>    by another company.
>>>>>>    Still, I can respect why they, or nvda have not created their tools
>>>>>>    for
>>>>>>    Linux.
>>>>>>    That is because as I understand it, Linux is  quite like clay. You
>>>>>> can
>>>>>>    mold a distribution into almost anything. there are various
>>>>>>    personifications of the system, all sorts of ways and changes and
>>>>>>    options
>>>>>>    for creativity.
>>>>>>    however adaptive tools are often extensions of physical
>>>>>>    characteristics,
>>>>>>    hands, eyes, ears, brains, combinations of these.
>>>>>>    To build solid assistive tools one must have a solid  foundation as
>>>>>> it
>>>>>>    were.  that is part of why there have needed to be so few Apple
>>>>>>    efforts
>>>>>>    at
>>>>>>    inclusion, they  created  with, and then created in-house adaptive
>>>>>>    tools
>>>>>>    for various  populations that were built into the system.
>>>>>>    Although Microsoft did not bother until much later, in theory at
>>>>>>    least,
>>>>>>    the
>>>>>>    consistency of windows is what makes it possible for freedom or the
>>>>>>    former
>>>>>>    gw  micro or nvda to create something that can in theory  work.
>>>>>>    Floor for the furniture is somewhat solid.
>>>>>>    Just my thoughts,
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>    On Sat, 13 Aug 2022, K0LNY_Glenn wrote:
>>>>>>
>>>>>>>    I would like to see Freedom Scientific make a Jaws For Linux.
>>>>>>>    JFL
>>>>>>>    I'd certainly pay the yearly rental fee for it, and it would bring
>>>>>>>    many
>>>>>>>    more
>>>>>>>    users into Linux.
>>>>>>>    FS could, with its resources, possibly make it more robust than
>>>>>>>    Orca.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>    Glenn
>>>>>>>    ----- Original Message -----
>>>>>>>    From: "Milan Zamazal" <pdm at zamazal.org>
>>>>>>>    To: <speakup at linux-speakup.org>
>>>>>>>    Cc: <Blinux-list at redhat.com>
>>>>>>>    Sent: Saturday, August 13, 2022 12:08 PM
>>>>>>>    Subject: Re: "Accessibility in Fedora Workstation" (fwd)
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>    "KL" == Karen Lewellen <klewellen at shellworld.net>
>>>>>>>>>>>> writes:
>>>>>>> KL>  What bothers me most are his lack of actual qualifications,
>>>>>>> and
>>>>>>> KL>  absolute dismissal of what he has not experienced..as if he
>>>>>>> KL>  defines Linux usage for everyone.  That attitude is dangerous,
>>>>>>> KL>  because he is educating those outside of the accessibility
>>>>>>> KL>  experiences, who will believe his ignorance is factual.  he
>>>>>>> has
>>>>>>> KL>  to be expert, it is his job.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>    Hi Karen,
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>    I know Lukas personally and I admire his skills and
>>>>>>> qualifications.
>>>>>>>    I
>>>>>>>    also know first hand that he is open to constructive feedback and
>>>>>>> I
>>>>>>>    believe he??Td be happy to be corrected about possible technical
>>>>>>>    inaccuracies in the interview.  It may be also a good opportunity
>>>>>>> to
>>>>>>>    find out what??Ts possibly missing in making anybody better
>>>>>>>    informed.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>    As for ??oabsolute dismissal of what he has not experienced???,
>>>>>>> what
>>>>>>>    reasonable free software alternatives to a less or more standard
>>>>>>>    desktop
>>>>>>>    with Orca and a software synthesizer can you see for a common
>>>>>>> blind
>>>>>>>    user
>>>>>>>    who needs to use a fully working web browser, to read and process
>>>>>>>    text
>>>>>>>    documents, to be compatible with other computer users, etc.?
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>    And let??Ts be realistic.  We celebrate every single developer
>>>>>>> hired
>>>>>>>    to
>>>>>>>    improve accessibility.  This tells something about the state of
>>>>>>> the
>>>>>>>    matters.  We cannot expect that a single person will fix all the
>>>>>>>    kinds
>>>>>>>    of accessibility problems in all the environments.  Lukas works at
>>>>>>>    his
>>>>>>>    job focusing on certain areas currently seen there as urgent ones
>>>>>>>    and I
>>>>>>>    appreciate this opportunity.  Anybody else seeing a need to work
>>>>>>> on
>>>>>>>    other areas is welcome to contribute to whatever sees fit, as I
>>>>>>> do.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>    Regards,
>>>>>>>    Milan
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>

"Accessibility in Fedora Workstation" (fwd)

[blinux-list]

Well, John, just replying to you as there were others who would have had 
duplicates. With an exception of N V D A, only paying commercial screen-readers 
have had lots of features-and-really good phone support. Currently JAWS as well 
as VoiceOver have well-staffed ways of receiving phone support. But God4bid if 
you need Speakup help, especially since the late Bill Acker is gone.
Chime

"Accessibility in Fedora Workstation" (fwd)

[blinux-list]

I'm on my third stint as an NFB member, and am quite intrigued. Who were 
the people involved?? Also, for the record, who's writing the message below?


I wasn't in NFB at the time of whatever happened.? I'd heard that it was 
kind of a deal between Freedom Scientific (or whatever it was then) and 
Microsoft, but I had no specifics.


Al


On 8/16/22 14:26, Linux for blind general discussion wrote:
> Actually, I'd like to know where you got the idea that it's just a 
> rumor. It is not. I was personally involved at the time, arguing 
> strenuously against the policy. I can give you names of people at the 
> NFB who backed the policy if you'd like.
>
> The NFB's reasoning was that a free screen reader would not be as good 
> as one you had to pay for. They reasoned that Microsoft had little 
> motivation to keep on improving their screen reader but it might be 
> enough to drive Freedom Scientific out of business. As a Linux user, I 
> felt that reasoning was flawed mainly because I felt free, open 
> source? screen readers were right around the corner anyway. I believe 
> I was using Speakup and something called Nupernicus on Linux at the time.
>
> This is absolutely not a rumor.
>
>
> On 8/16/22 12:31, K0LNY_Glenn wrote:
>> That is hear-say, an old rumor that has been recycled countless times.
>> Glenn
>> ----- Original Message -----
>> From: "John G. Heim" <jheim at wisc.edu>
>> To: "K0LNY_Glenn" <glenn at ervin.email>; "Butch Bussen"
>> <butchb at shellworld.net>; "Karen Lewellen" <klewellen at shellworld.net>
>> Cc: <speakup at linux-speakup.org>; "Milan Zamazal" <pdm at zamazal.org>;
>> <Blinux-list at redhat.com>
>> Sent: Tuesday, August 16, 2022 11:49 AM
>> Subject: Re: "Accessibility in Fedora Workstation" (fwd)
>>
>>
>> Holy cow! Are you aware that the NFB once asked Microsoft to *NOT*
>> improve Narrator to the point where it would compete with Jaws? If you
>> think the NFB is incapable of forcing choices on people, you are very
>> sadly mistaken.
>>
>>
>>
>> On 8/16/22 09:36, K0LNY_Glenn wrote:
>>> This sort of thing would never happen in Nebraska, or any state 
>>> where the
>>> agency staff is of the NFB philosophy.
>>> Say what you want about the NFB, no organization is without its 
>>> problems,
>>> but it is the core philosophy that formed the NFB that knows that 
>>> society
>>> has low expectations of the Blind, and this is why the NFB believes in
>>> skills and high expectations.
>>> And with that, comes giving respect to the Blind, like the respect of
>>> choice.
>>> Yeah I know about the information of recent about NFB abuse, but 
>>> this is
>>> organizational issues, unrelated to the philosophy.? In fact, the fact
>>> that
>>> it has come up demonstrates that the NFB is no different than any other
>>> organization in interpersonal staff issues.
>>> And choice does not mean training center choices.
>>> Choice isn't always an option, just like if you took a vocational 
>>> course
>>> in
>>> college, there are things you have to take, so to me, the lack of 
>>> choice
>>> in
>>> this regard is different than computer software, where all the choices
>>> will
>>> reach the same end result.
>>> In states where the NFB philosophy is embraced, if a client said I 
>>> want to
>>> use a Mac, or I want Window Eyes, then that is what they would get, no
>>> questions asked.
>>> They would not have to fight to get it.
>>> I simply cannot imagine a counselor saying that someone has to use the
>>> software that the counselor wants them to have.
>>> When I hear that stuff, I almost cannot believe it, but I know Butch 
>>> well
>>> enough to know he wouldn't make that up.
>>>
>>> Glenn
>>> ----- Original Message -----
>>> From: "Butch Bussen" <butchb at shellworld.net>
>>> To: "Karen Lewellen" <klewellen at shellworld.net>
>>> Cc: "K0LNY_Glenn" <glenn at ervin.email>; <speakup at linux-speakup.org>; 
>>> "Milan
>>> Zamazal" <pdm at zamazal.org>; <Blinux-list at redhat.com>
>>> Sent: Tuesday, August 16, 2022 8:18 AM
>>> Subject: Re: "Accessibility in Fedora Workstation" (fwd)
>>>
>>>
>>> You are right.? In Nevada, freedom pushed jaws to the rehab people and
>>> took them out for steak diners and so forth.? I fought like hell to get
>>> them to buy window-eyes.
>>> 73
>>> Butch
>>> WA0VJR
>>> Node 3148
>>> Wallace, ks.
>>>
>>>
>>> On Sun, 14 Aug 2022, Karen Lewellen wrote:
>>>
>>>> And where do these employers learn about jaws?
>>>> In fact, provide if you do not mind an example of how? this works
>>>> exactly.
>>>> after all, unless I am incorrect, these employers are not personal 
>>>> Jaws
>>>> users, meaning someone they trust continues to sell them on an 
>>>> expensive
>>>> program instead of a largely free one.
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> On Sat, 13 Aug 2022, K0LNY_Glenn wrote:
>>>>
>>>>> ?? Karen,
>>>>> ?? Most employers don't want NVDA, and will only allow Jaws.
>>>>> ?? In Nebraska, if an employer said put on whatever works, the 
>>>>> counselors
>>>>> ?? will
>>>>> ?? use NVDA, because of the cost of Jaws.
>>>>> ?? If some of the clients in a call center already use Jaws, but 
>>>>> don't
>>>>> know
>>>>> ?? NVDA, the counselor will use Jaws, because the other clients 
>>>>> will need
>>>>> to
>>>>> ?? learn one of the two.
>>>>> ?? So it's all choice, but in the workplace, it depends on what the
>>>>> employer
>>>>> ?? will allow.
>>>>> ?? Also, sometimes scripts need to be made, and there are more Jaws
>>>>> scripters
>>>>> ?? available than there are NVDA add-on writers.
>>>>> ?? So this perception that Jaws is forced by rehab, from my 31 
>>>>> years in
>>>>> the
>>>>> ?? business I can say is rubbish.
>>>>> ?? Now, if a counselor did not know how to use NVDA, and either 
>>>>> may be
>>>>> ?? chosen,
>>>>> ?? the rehab counselor is able to select the one that the 
>>>>> counselor feels
>>>>> is
>>>>> ?? best for the student and for the counselor's teaching.
>>>>> ?? When it comes to part B moneys, which is used for non-vocational
>>>>> ?? purchases,
>>>>> ?? where a lot of Jaws purchases come from, it is in the agency's 
>>>>> best
>>>>> ?? interest
>>>>> ?? to spend as little as possible, because that doesn't come back 
>>>>> like VR
>>>>> ?? expenditures do.
>>>>> ?? Glenn
>>>>>
>>>>> ?? ----- Original Message -----
>>>>> ?? From: "Karen Lewellen" <klewellen at shellworld.net>
>>>>> ?? To: "K0LNY_Glenn" <glenn at ervin.email>
>>>>> ?? Cc: <speakup at linux-speakup.org>; "Milan Zamazal" 
>>>>> <pdm at zamazal.org>;
>>>>> ?? <Blinux-list at redhat.com>
>>>>> ?? Sent: Saturday, August 13, 2022 6:15 PM
>>>>> ?? Subject: Re: "Accessibility in Fedora Workstation" (fwd)
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> ?? The challenge with that example is that, as one often gets 
>>>>> reminded,
>>>>> the
>>>>> ?? rehab systems track record for facilitating? employment for their
>>>>> clients
>>>>> ?? is quite poor.
>>>>> ?? With a high percentage of unemployment among our clients.? Making,
>>>>> ?? speaking personally, your buying Jaws for personal use not really
>>>>> ?? reflecting how the system would respond to an alternative request.
>>>>> ?? Now if someone from organized rehab said, okay freedom 
>>>>> scientific, we
>>>>> are
>>>>> ?? creating an employment program where our clients will train in 
>>>>> Linux,
>>>>> ?? needing a solid screen reader solution for the system. We will 
>>>>> give
>>>>> you
>>>>> ?? an
>>>>> ?? exclusive development contract for s millions to create the tool.
>>>>> ?? Fs would likely say where do we sign?
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> ?? On Sat, 13 Aug 2022, K0LNY_Glenn wrote:
>>>>>
>>>>>> ?? True enough, but largely, rehab people typically use Windows 
>>>>>> at work,
>>>>>> ?? and
>>>>>> ?? probably at home, but they need to cater to the needs of the 
>>>>>> client.
>>>>>> ?? If a client used Linux, I doubt that any rehab counselor would
>>>>>> advocate
>>>>>> ?? that
>>>>>> ?? the client switch to Windows, unless that was needed for a 
>>>>>> specific
>>>>>> job.
>>>>>> ?? In Nebraska, we purchased Jaws much more for personal use than 
>>>>>> we did
>>>>>> ?? for
>>>>>> ?? work related situations.
>>>>>> ?? So if FS made a JFL, and people were using Linux, rehab would 
>>>>>> indeed
>>>>>> ?? purchase a JFL product.
>>>>>> ?? Glenn
>>>>>> ?? ----- Original Message -----
>>>>>> ?? From: "Karen Lewellen" <klewellen at shellworld.net>
>>>>>> ?? To: "K0LNY_Glenn" <glenn at ervin.email>
>>>>>> ?? Cc: <speakup at linux-speakup.org>; "Milan Zamazal" 
>>>>>> <pdm at zamazal.org>;
>>>>>> ?? <Blinux-list at redhat.com>
>>>>>> ?? Sent: Saturday, August 13, 2022 3:01 PM
>>>>>> ?? Subject: Re: "Accessibility in Fedora Workstation" (fwd)
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>> ?? there was an interesting discussion a month or so back on the 
>>>>>> blinux
>>>>>> ?? list
>>>>>> ?? about how long it took completing tasks in the gui as apposed 
>>>>>> to say
>>>>>> ?? command line,? the comments were quite informative.
>>>>>> ?? Still, fs has never marketed largely to the end user. Instead 
>>>>>> they
>>>>>> ?? market
>>>>>> ?? to the American rehab community.
>>>>>> ?? how much market research has? the rehab community done to 
>>>>>> support the
>>>>>> ?? need
>>>>>> ?? for choices?
>>>>>> ?? How many rehab counselors support? training in Linux?
>>>>>> ?? one comment made by the subject of this thread about poor quality
>>>>>> speech
>>>>>> ?? is a fine one...out of the box Linux has few speech choices.
>>>>>> everyone
>>>>>> ?? brings their needs to the table there.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> ?? if you want to get fs to care about Linux, you? need to prove 
>>>>>> there
>>>>>> is
>>>>>> ?? money for? them there, from their main source of income.
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>> ?? On Sat, 13 Aug 2022, K0LNY_Glenn wrote:
>>>>>>
>>>>>>> ?? Well since Orca seems to work on so many distros, I don't 
>>>>>>> know why
>>>>>>> FS
>>>>>>> ?? would
>>>>>>> ?? not be able to do the same.
>>>>>>> ?? If Jaws users could switch into Linux, it would be a real game
>>>>>>> ?? changer,
>>>>>>> ?? and
>>>>>>> ?? I think with lots more Blind Linux users, we would start seeing
>>>>>>> ?? accessibility in Linux not being a second thought.
>>>>>>> ?? Glenn
>>>>>>> ?? ----- Original Message -----
>>>>>>> ?? From: "Karen Lewellen" <klewellen at shellworld.net>
>>>>>>> ?? To: "K0LNY_Glenn" <glenn at ervin.email>
>>>>>>> ?? Cc: <speakup at linux-speakup.org>; "Milan Zamazal" 
>>>>>>> <pdm at zamazal.org>;
>>>>>>> ?? <Blinux-list at redhat.com>
>>>>>>> ?? Sent: Saturday, August 13, 2022 1:47 PM
>>>>>>> ?? Subject: Re: "Accessibility in Fedora Workstation" (fwd)
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> ?? Well technically freedom scientific does not exist any 
>>>>>>> longer, being
>>>>>>> ?? bought
>>>>>>> ?? by another company.
>>>>>>> ?? Still, I can respect why they, or nvda have not created their 
>>>>>>> tools
>>>>>>> ?? for
>>>>>>> ?? Linux.
>>>>>>> ?? That is because as I understand it, Linux is? quite like 
>>>>>>> clay. You
>>>>>>> can
>>>>>>> ?? mold a distribution into almost anything. there are various
>>>>>>> ?? personifications of the system, all sorts of ways and changes 
>>>>>>> and
>>>>>>> ?? options
>>>>>>> ?? for creativity.
>>>>>>> ?? however adaptive tools are often extensions of physical
>>>>>>> ?? characteristics,
>>>>>>> ?? hands, eyes, ears, brains, combinations of these.
>>>>>>> ?? To build solid assistive tools one must have a solid? 
>>>>>>> foundation as
>>>>>>> it
>>>>>>> ?? were.? that is part of why there have needed to be so few Apple
>>>>>>> ?? efforts
>>>>>>> ?? at
>>>>>>> ?? inclusion, they? created? with, and then created in-house 
>>>>>>> adaptive
>>>>>>> ?? tools
>>>>>>> ?? for various? populations that were built into the system.
>>>>>>> ?? Although Microsoft did not bother until much later, in theory at
>>>>>>> ?? least,
>>>>>>> ?? the
>>>>>>> ?? consistency of windows is what makes it possible for freedom 
>>>>>>> or the
>>>>>>> ?? former
>>>>>>> ?? gw? micro or nvda to create something that can in theory? work.
>>>>>>> ?? Floor for the furniture is somewhat solid.
>>>>>>> ?? Just my thoughts,
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> ?? On Sat, 13 Aug 2022, K0LNY_Glenn wrote:
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> ?? I would like to see Freedom Scientific make a Jaws For Linux.
>>>>>>>> ?? JFL
>>>>>>>> ?? I'd certainly pay the yearly rental fee for it, and it would 
>>>>>>>> bring
>>>>>>>> ?? many
>>>>>>>> ?? more
>>>>>>>> ?? users into Linux.
>>>>>>>> ?? FS could, with its resources, possibly make it more robust than
>>>>>>>> ?? Orca.
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> ?? Glenn
>>>>>>>> ?? ----- Original Message -----
>>>>>>>> ?? From: "Milan Zamazal" <pdm at zamazal.org>
>>>>>>>> ?? To: <speakup at linux-speakup.org>
>>>>>>>> ?? Cc: <Blinux-list at redhat.com>
>>>>>>>> ?? Sent: Saturday, August 13, 2022 12:08 PM
>>>>>>>> ?? Subject: Re: "Accessibility in Fedora Workstation" (fwd)
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>> ?? "KL" == Karen Lewellen <klewellen at shellworld.net>
>>>>>>>>>>>>> writes:
>>>>>>>> KL>? What bothers me most are his lack of actual qualifications,
>>>>>>>> and
>>>>>>>> KL>? absolute dismissal of what he has not experienced..as if he
>>>>>>>> KL>? defines Linux usage for everyone.? That attitude is 
>>>>>>>> dangerous,
>>>>>>>> KL>? because he is educating those outside of the accessibility
>>>>>>>> KL>? experiences, who will believe his ignorance is factual.? he
>>>>>>>> has
>>>>>>>> KL>? to be expert, it is his job.
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> ?? Hi Karen,
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> ?? I know Lukas personally and I admire his skills and
>>>>>>>> qualifications.
>>>>>>>> ?? I
>>>>>>>> ?? also know first hand that he is open to constructive 
>>>>>>>> feedback and
>>>>>>>> I
>>>>>>>> ?? believe he??Td be happy to be corrected about possible 
>>>>>>>> technical
>>>>>>>> ?? inaccuracies in the interview.? It may be also a good 
>>>>>>>> opportunity
>>>>>>>> to
>>>>>>>> ?? find out what??Ts possibly missing in making anybody better
>>>>>>>> ?? informed.
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> ?? As for ??oabsolute dismissal of what he has not experienced???,
>>>>>>>> what
>>>>>>>> ?? reasonable free software alternatives to a less or more 
>>>>>>>> standard
>>>>>>>> ?? desktop
>>>>>>>> ?? with Orca and a software synthesizer can you see for a common
>>>>>>>> blind
>>>>>>>> ?? user
>>>>>>>> ?? who needs to use a fully working web browser, to read and 
>>>>>>>> process
>>>>>>>> ?? text
>>>>>>>> ?? documents, to be compatible with other computer users, etc.?
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> ?? And let??Ts be realistic.? We celebrate every single developer
>>>>>>>> hired
>>>>>>>> ?? to
>>>>>>>> ?? improve accessibility.? This tells something about the state of
>>>>>>>> the
>>>>>>>> ?? matters.? We cannot expect that a single person will fix all 
>>>>>>>> the
>>>>>>>> ?? kinds
>>>>>>>> ?? of accessibility problems in all the environments.? Lukas 
>>>>>>>> works at
>>>>>>>> ?? his
>>>>>>>> ?? job focusing on certain areas currently seen there as urgent 
>>>>>>>> ones
>>>>>>>> ?? and I
>>>>>>>> ?? appreciate this opportunity.? Anybody else seeing a need to 
>>>>>>>> work
>>>>>>>> on
>>>>>>>> ?? other areas is welcome to contribute to whatever sees fit, as I
>>>>>>>> do.
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> ?? Regards,
>>>>>>>> ?? Milan
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>
>>
>
> _______________________________________________
> Blinux-list mailing list
> Blinux-list at redhat.com
> https://listman.redhat.com/mailman/listinfo/blinux-list

"Accessibility in Fedora Workstation" (fwd)

[blinux-list]

Let me chime in here from the opposition point of view.

Having used both the paid screen readers (JAWS and also GwMicro) and many of the free screen readers, The paid ones may have more features and are probably tuned a bit more closely to work in a specified OS, but the free ones often times offer more latitude when dealing with non-standard content.

Now, some other considerations, not all computer systems can handle a full GUI (case in point: the RaspberryPi 3 series of which I have 1). So, the use of a console there is a must and I use several of the console available screen readers, Like BrltTY, Emacsspeak, Speakup and others). There are times when this is very useful when the full GUI might present some issues.

Now, this doesn?t mean I haven?t stopped using full GUI interfaces. I have, for the most part, stuck with either JAWS or NVDA on windows (what one can?t read, the other might), Voiceover on OS X and any of the half dozen or so screen readers available in Linux (ORCA being the primary for GUI and anything else for console as needed). Each has their flaws and each has their strengths and it doesn?t hurt to know them all. Believe me, try using VI or NANO in a terminal with ORCA. It doesn?t work very well. However, the others work very well there, but not so well inside the GUI. It all depends on what you need to do. It?s called using the right tool for the right job.

-Eric
>From the Central Offices of the Technomage Guild, Tool Maintenance Dept.


> On Aug 16, 2022, at 11:26 AM, Linux for blind general discussion <blinux-list at redhat.com> wrote:
> 
> Actually, I'd like to know where you got the idea that it's just a rumor. It is not. I was personally involved at the time, arguing strenuously against the policy. I can give you names of people at the NFB who backed the policy if you'd like.
> 
> The NFB's reasoning was that a free screen reader would not be as good as one you had to pay for. They reasoned that Microsoft had little motivation to keep on improving their screen reader but it might be enough to drive Freedom Scientific out of business. As a Linux user, I felt that reasoning was flawed mainly because I felt free, open source  screen readers were right around the corner anyway. I believe I was using Speakup and something called Nupernicus on Linux at the time.
> 
> This is absolutely not a rumor.
> 
> 
> On 8/16/22 12:31, K0LNY_Glenn wrote:
>> That is hear-say, an old rumor that has been recycled countless times.
>> Glenn
>> ----- Original Message -----
>> From: "John G. Heim" <jheim at wisc.edu>
>> To: "K0LNY_Glenn" <glenn at ervin.email>; "Butch Bussen"
>> <butchb at shellworld.net>; "Karen Lewellen" <klewellen at shellworld.net>
>> Cc: <speakup at linux-speakup.org>; "Milan Zamazal" <pdm at zamazal.org>;
>> <Blinux-list at redhat.com>
>> Sent: Tuesday, August 16, 2022 11:49 AM
>> Subject: Re: "Accessibility in Fedora Workstation" (fwd)
>> 
>> 
>> Holy cow! Are you aware that the NFB once asked Microsoft to *NOT*
>> improve Narrator to the point where it would compete with Jaws? If you
>> think the NFB is incapable of forcing choices on people, you are very
>> sadly mistaken.
>> 
>> 
>> 
>> On 8/16/22 09:36, K0LNY_Glenn wrote:
>>> This sort of thing would never happen in Nebraska, or any state where the
>>> agency staff is of the NFB philosophy.
>>> Say what you want about the NFB, no organization is without its problems,
>>> but it is the core philosophy that formed the NFB that knows that society
>>> has low expectations of the Blind, and this is why the NFB believes in
>>> skills and high expectations.
>>> And with that, comes giving respect to the Blind, like the respect of
>>> choice.
>>> Yeah I know about the information of recent about NFB abuse, but this is
>>> organizational issues, unrelated to the philosophy.  In fact, the fact
>>> that
>>> it has come up demonstrates that the NFB is no different than any other
>>> organization in interpersonal staff issues.
>>> And choice does not mean training center choices.
>>> Choice isn't always an option, just like if you took a vocational course
>>> in
>>> college, there are things you have to take, so to me, the lack of choice
>>> in
>>> this regard is different than computer software, where all the choices
>>> will
>>> reach the same end result.
>>> In states where the NFB philosophy is embraced, if a client said I want to
>>> use a Mac, or I want Window Eyes, then that is what they would get, no
>>> questions asked.
>>> They would not have to fight to get it.
>>> I simply cannot imagine a counselor saying that someone has to use the
>>> software that the counselor wants them to have.
>>> When I hear that stuff, I almost cannot believe it, but I know Butch well
>>> enough to know he wouldn't make that up.
>>> 
>>> Glenn
>>> ----- Original Message -----
>>> From: "Butch Bussen" <butchb at shellworld.net>
>>> To: "Karen Lewellen" <klewellen at shellworld.net>
>>> Cc: "K0LNY_Glenn" <glenn at ervin.email>; <speakup at linux-speakup.org>; "Milan
>>> Zamazal" <pdm at zamazal.org>; <Blinux-list at redhat.com>
>>> Sent: Tuesday, August 16, 2022 8:18 AM
>>> Subject: Re: "Accessibility in Fedora Workstation" (fwd)
>>> 
>>> 
>>> You are right.  In Nevada, freedom pushed jaws to the rehab people and
>>> took them out for steak diners and so forth.  I fought like hell to get
>>> them to buy window-eyes.
>>> 73
>>> Butch
>>> WA0VJR
>>> Node 3148
>>> Wallace, ks.
>>> 
>>> 
>>> On Sun, 14 Aug 2022, Karen Lewellen wrote:
>>> 
>>>> And where do these employers learn about jaws?
>>>> In fact, provide if you do not mind an example of how  this works
>>>> exactly.
>>>> after all, unless I am incorrect, these employers are not personal Jaws
>>>> users, meaning someone they trust continues to sell them on an expensive
>>>> program instead of a largely free one.
>>>> 
>>>> 
>>>> 
>>>> On Sat, 13 Aug 2022, K0LNY_Glenn wrote:
>>>> 
>>>>>   Karen,
>>>>>   Most employers don't want NVDA, and will only allow Jaws.
>>>>>   In Nebraska, if an employer said put on whatever works, the counselors
>>>>>   will
>>>>>   use NVDA, because of the cost of Jaws.
>>>>>   If some of the clients in a call center already use Jaws, but don't
>>>>> know
>>>>>   NVDA, the counselor will use Jaws, because the other clients will need
>>>>> to
>>>>>   learn one of the two.
>>>>>   So it's all choice, but in the workplace, it depends on what the
>>>>> employer
>>>>>   will allow.
>>>>>   Also, sometimes scripts need to be made, and there are more Jaws
>>>>> scripters
>>>>>   available than there are NVDA add-on writers.
>>>>>   So this perception that Jaws is forced by rehab, from my 31 years in
>>>>> the
>>>>>   business I can say is rubbish.
>>>>>   Now, if a counselor did not know how to use NVDA, and either may be
>>>>>   chosen,
>>>>>   the rehab counselor is able to select the one that the counselor feels
>>>>> is
>>>>>   best for the student and for the counselor's teaching.
>>>>>   When it comes to part B moneys, which is used for non-vocational
>>>>>   purchases,
>>>>>   where a lot of Jaws purchases come from, it is in the agency's best
>>>>>   interest
>>>>>   to spend as little as possible, because that doesn't come back like VR
>>>>>   expenditures do.
>>>>>   Glenn
>>>>> 
>>>>>   ----- Original Message -----
>>>>>   From: "Karen Lewellen" <klewellen at shellworld.net>
>>>>>   To: "K0LNY_Glenn" <glenn at ervin.email>
>>>>>   Cc: <speakup at linux-speakup.org>; "Milan Zamazal" <pdm at zamazal.org>;
>>>>>   <Blinux-list at redhat.com>
>>>>>   Sent: Saturday, August 13, 2022 6:15 PM
>>>>>   Subject: Re: "Accessibility in Fedora Workstation" (fwd)
>>>>> 
>>>>> 
>>>>>   The challenge with that example is that, as one often gets reminded,
>>>>> the
>>>>>   rehab systems track record for facilitating  employment for their
>>>>> clients
>>>>>   is quite poor.
>>>>>   With a high percentage of unemployment among our clients.  Making,
>>>>>   speaking personally, your buying Jaws for personal use not really
>>>>>   reflecting how the system would respond to an alternative request.
>>>>>   Now if someone from organized rehab said, okay freedom scientific, we
>>>>> are
>>>>>   creating an employment program where our clients will train in Linux,
>>>>>   needing a solid screen reader solution for the system.  We will give
>>>>> you
>>>>>   an
>>>>>   exclusive development contract for s millions to create the tool.
>>>>>   Fs would likely say where do we sign?
>>>>> 
>>>>> 
>>>>> 
>>>>>   On Sat, 13 Aug 2022, K0LNY_Glenn wrote:
>>>>> 
>>>>>>   True enough, but largely, rehab people typically use Windows at work,
>>>>>>   and
>>>>>>   probably at home, but they need to cater to the needs of the client.
>>>>>>   If a client used Linux, I doubt that any rehab counselor would
>>>>>> advocate
>>>>>>   that
>>>>>>   the client switch to Windows, unless that was needed for a specific
>>>>>> job.
>>>>>>   In Nebraska, we purchased Jaws much more for personal use than we did
>>>>>>   for
>>>>>>   work related situations.
>>>>>>   So if FS made a JFL, and people were using Linux, rehab would indeed
>>>>>>   purchase a JFL product.
>>>>>>   Glenn
>>>>>>   ----- Original Message -----
>>>>>>   From: "Karen Lewellen" <klewellen at shellworld.net>
>>>>>>   To: "K0LNY_Glenn" <glenn at ervin.email>
>>>>>>   Cc: <speakup at linux-speakup.org>; "Milan Zamazal" <pdm at zamazal.org>;
>>>>>>   <Blinux-list at redhat.com>
>>>>>>   Sent: Saturday, August 13, 2022 3:01 PM
>>>>>>   Subject: Re: "Accessibility in Fedora Workstation" (fwd)
>>>>>> 
>>>>>> 
>>>>>>   there was an interesting discussion a month or so back on the blinux
>>>>>>   list
>>>>>>   about how long it took completing tasks in the gui as apposed to say
>>>>>>   command line,  the comments were quite informative.
>>>>>>   Still, fs has never marketed largely to the end user. Instead they
>>>>>>   market
>>>>>>   to the American rehab community.
>>>>>>   how much market research has  the rehab community done to support the
>>>>>>   need
>>>>>>   for choices?
>>>>>>   How many rehab counselors support  training in Linux?
>>>>>>   one comment made by the subject of this thread about poor quality
>>>>>> speech
>>>>>>   is a fine one...out of the box Linux has few speech choices.
>>>>>> everyone
>>>>>>   brings their needs to the table there.
>>>>>> 
>>>>>>   if you want to get fs to care about Linux, you  need to prove there
>>>>>> is
>>>>>>   money for  them there, from their main source of income.
>>>>>> 
>>>>>> 
>>>>>> 
>>>>>>   On Sat, 13 Aug 2022, K0LNY_Glenn wrote:
>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>   Well since Orca seems to work on so many distros, I don't know why
>>>>>>> FS
>>>>>>>   would
>>>>>>>   not be able to do the same.
>>>>>>>   If Jaws users could switch into Linux, it would be a real game
>>>>>>>   changer,
>>>>>>>   and
>>>>>>>   I think with lots more Blind Linux users, we would start seeing
>>>>>>>   accessibility in Linux not being a second thought.
>>>>>>>   Glenn
>>>>>>>   ----- Original Message -----
>>>>>>>   From: "Karen Lewellen" <klewellen at shellworld.net>
>>>>>>>   To: "K0LNY_Glenn" <glenn at ervin.email>
>>>>>>>   Cc: <speakup at linux-speakup.org>; "Milan Zamazal" <pdm at zamazal.org>;
>>>>>>>   <Blinux-list at redhat.com>
>>>>>>>   Sent: Saturday, August 13, 2022 1:47 PM
>>>>>>>   Subject: Re: "Accessibility in Fedora Workstation" (fwd)
>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>   Well technically freedom scientific does not exist any longer, being
>>>>>>>   bought
>>>>>>>   by another company.
>>>>>>>   Still, I can respect why they, or nvda have not created their tools
>>>>>>>   for
>>>>>>>   Linux.
>>>>>>>   That is because as I understand it, Linux is  quite like clay. You
>>>>>>> can
>>>>>>>   mold a distribution into almost anything. there are various
>>>>>>>   personifications of the system, all sorts of ways and changes and
>>>>>>>   options
>>>>>>>   for creativity.
>>>>>>>   however adaptive tools are often extensions of physical
>>>>>>>   characteristics,
>>>>>>>   hands, eyes, ears, brains, combinations of these.
>>>>>>>   To build solid assistive tools one must have a solid  foundation as
>>>>>>> it
>>>>>>>   were.  that is part of why there have needed to be so few Apple
>>>>>>>   efforts
>>>>>>>   at
>>>>>>>   inclusion, they  created  with, and then created in-house adaptive
>>>>>>>   tools
>>>>>>>   for various  populations that were built into the system.
>>>>>>>   Although Microsoft did not bother until much later, in theory at
>>>>>>>   least,
>>>>>>>   the
>>>>>>>   consistency of windows is what makes it possible for freedom or the
>>>>>>>   former
>>>>>>>   gw  micro or nvda to create something that can in theory  work.
>>>>>>>   Floor for the furniture is somewhat solid.
>>>>>>>   Just my thoughts,
>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>   On Sat, 13 Aug 2022, K0LNY_Glenn wrote:
>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>>   I would like to see Freedom Scientific make a Jaws For Linux.
>>>>>>>>   JFL
>>>>>>>>   I'd certainly pay the yearly rental fee for it, and it would bring
>>>>>>>>   many
>>>>>>>>   more
>>>>>>>>   users into Linux.
>>>>>>>>   FS could, with its resources, possibly make it more robust than
>>>>>>>>   Orca.
>>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>>   Glenn
>>>>>>>>   ----- Original Message -----
>>>>>>>>   From: "Milan Zamazal" <pdm at zamazal.org>
>>>>>>>>   To: <speakup at linux-speakup.org>
>>>>>>>>   Cc: <Blinux-list at redhat.com>
>>>>>>>>   Sent: Saturday, August 13, 2022 12:08 PM
>>>>>>>>   Subject: Re: "Accessibility in Fedora Workstation" (fwd)
>>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>>>>>>>   "KL" == Karen Lewellen <klewellen at shellworld.net>
>>>>>>>>>>>>> writes:
>>>>>>>> KL>  What bothers me most are his lack of actual qualifications,
>>>>>>>> and
>>>>>>>> KL>  absolute dismissal of what he has not experienced..as if he
>>>>>>>> KL>  defines Linux usage for everyone.  That attitude is dangerous,
>>>>>>>> KL>  because he is educating those outside of the accessibility
>>>>>>>> KL>  experiences, who will believe his ignorance is factual.  he
>>>>>>>> has
>>>>>>>> KL>  to be expert, it is his job.
>>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>>   Hi Karen,
>>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>>   I know Lukas personally and I admire his skills and
>>>>>>>> qualifications.
>>>>>>>>   I
>>>>>>>>   also know first hand that he is open to constructive feedback and
>>>>>>>> I
>>>>>>>>   believe he??Td be happy to be corrected about possible technical
>>>>>>>>   inaccuracies in the interview.  It may be also a good opportunity
>>>>>>>> to
>>>>>>>>   find out what??Ts possibly missing in making anybody better
>>>>>>>>   informed.
>>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>>   As for ??oabsolute dismissal of what he has not experienced???,
>>>>>>>> what
>>>>>>>>   reasonable free software alternatives to a less or more standard
>>>>>>>>   desktop
>>>>>>>>   with Orca and a software synthesizer can you see for a common
>>>>>>>> blind
>>>>>>>>   user
>>>>>>>>   who needs to use a fully working web browser, to read and process
>>>>>>>>   text
>>>>>>>>   documents, to be compatible with other computer users, etc.?
>>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>>   And let??Ts be realistic.  We celebrate every single developer
>>>>>>>> hired
>>>>>>>>   to
>>>>>>>>   improve accessibility.  This tells something about the state of
>>>>>>>> the
>>>>>>>>   matters.  We cannot expect that a single person will fix all the
>>>>>>>>   kinds
>>>>>>>>   of accessibility problems in all the environments.  Lukas works at
>>>>>>>>   his
>>>>>>>>   job focusing on certain areas currently seen there as urgent ones
>>>>>>>>   and I
>>>>>>>>   appreciate this opportunity.  Anybody else seeing a need to work
>>>>>>>> on
>>>>>>>>   other areas is welcome to contribute to whatever sees fit, as I
>>>>>>>> do.
>>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>>   Regards,
>>>>>>>>   Milan
>>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>> 
>> 
> 
> _______________________________________________
> Blinux-list mailing list
> Blinux-list at redhat.com
> https://listman.redhat.com/mailman/listinfo/blinux-list

"Accessibility in Fedora Workstation" (fwd)

[blinux-list]

In orca in a terminal environment I can use vi variants other than elvis
by use of the -e option.  That -e option turns what would be a
screen-oriented editor into a line-oriented editor.  Once that happens I
can confidently know I'll be working with smaller objects than the entire
screen.  When I used dos professionally my go to tool for editing was
edlin and not edit.  I can and do use emacs but not to the level the
experts with emacs do.


Jude <jdashiel at panix dot com> .

On Wed, 17 Aug 2022, Linux for blind general discussion wrote:

> Let me chime in here from the opposition point of view.
>
> Having used both the paid screen readers (JAWS and also GwMicro) and many of the free screen readers, The paid ones may have more features and are probably tuned a bit more closely to work in a specified OS, but the free ones often times offer more latitude when dealing with non-standard content.
>
> Now, some other considerations, not all computer systems can handle a full GUI (case in point: the RaspberryPi 3 series of which I have 1). So, the use of a console there is a must and I use several of the console available screen readers, Like BrltTY, Emacsspeak, Speakup and others). There are times when this is very useful when the full GUI might present some issues.
>
> Now, this doesn?t mean I haven?t stopped using full GUI interfaces. I have, for the most part, stuck with either JAWS or NVDA on windows (what one can?t read, the other might), Voiceover on OS X and any of the half dozen or so screen readers available in Linux (ORCA being the primary for GUI and anything else for console as needed). Each has their flaws and each has their strengths and it doesn?t hurt to know them all. Believe me, try using VI or NANO in a terminal with ORCA. It doesn?t work very well. However, the others work very well there, but not so well inside the GUI. It all depends on what you need to do. It?s called using the right tool for the right job.
>
> -Eric
> From the Central Offices of the Technomage Guild, Tool Maintenance Dept.
>
>
> > On Aug 16, 2022, at 11:26 AM, Linux for blind general discussion <blinux-list at redhat.com> wrote:
> >
> > Actually, I'd like to know where you got the idea that it's just a rumor. It is not. I was personally involved at the time, arguing strenuously against the policy. I can give you names of people at the NFB who backed the policy if you'd like.
> >
> > The NFB's reasoning was that a free screen reader would not be as good as one you had to pay for. They reasoned that Microsoft had little motivation to keep on improving their screen reader but it might be enough to drive Freedom Scientific out of business. As a Linux user, I felt that reasoning was flawed mainly because I felt free, open source  screen readers were right around the corner anyway. I believe I was using Speakup and something called Nupernicus on Linux at the time.
> >
> > This is absolutely not a rumor.
> >
> >
> > On 8/16/22 12:31, K0LNY_Glenn wrote:
> >> That is hear-say, an old rumor that has been recycled countless times.
> >> Glenn
> >> ----- Original Message -----
> >> From: "John G. Heim" <jheim at wisc.edu>
> >> To: "K0LNY_Glenn" <glenn at ervin.email>; "Butch Bussen"
> >> <butchb at shellworld.net>; "Karen Lewellen" <klewellen at shellworld.net>
> >> Cc: <speakup at linux-speakup.org>; "Milan Zamazal" <pdm at zamazal.org>;
> >> <Blinux-list at redhat.com>
> >> Sent: Tuesday, August 16, 2022 11:49 AM
> >> Subject: Re: "Accessibility in Fedora Workstation" (fwd)
> >>
> >>
> >> Holy cow! Are you aware that the NFB once asked Microsoft to *NOT*
> >> improve Narrator to the point where it would compete with Jaws? If you
> >> think the NFB is incapable of forcing choices on people, you are very
> >> sadly mistaken.
> >>
> >>
> >>
> >> On 8/16/22 09:36, K0LNY_Glenn wrote:
> >>> This sort of thing would never happen in Nebraska, or any state where the
> >>> agency staff is of the NFB philosophy.
> >>> Say what you want about the NFB, no organization is without its problems,
> >>> but it is the core philosophy that formed the NFB that knows that society
> >>> has low expectations of the Blind, and this is why the NFB believes in
> >>> skills and high expectations.
> >>> And with that, comes giving respect to the Blind, like the respect of
> >>> choice.
> >>> Yeah I know about the information of recent about NFB abuse, but this is
> >>> organizational issues, unrelated to the philosophy.  In fact, the fact
> >>> that
> >>> it has come up demonstrates that the NFB is no different than any other
> >>> organization in interpersonal staff issues.
> >>> And choice does not mean training center choices.
> >>> Choice isn't always an option, just like if you took a vocational course
> >>> in
> >>> college, there are things you have to take, so to me, the lack of choice
> >>> in
> >>> this regard is different than computer software, where all the choices
> >>> will
> >>> reach the same end result.
> >>> In states where the NFB philosophy is embraced, if a client said I want to
> >>> use a Mac, or I want Window Eyes, then that is what they would get, no
> >>> questions asked.
> >>> They would not have to fight to get it.
> >>> I simply cannot imagine a counselor saying that someone has to use the
> >>> software that the counselor wants them to have.
> >>> When I hear that stuff, I almost cannot believe it, but I know Butch well
> >>> enough to know he wouldn't make that up.
> >>>
> >>> Glenn
> >>> ----- Original Message -----
> >>> From: "Butch Bussen" <butchb at shellworld.net>
> >>> To: "Karen Lewellen" <klewellen at shellworld.net>
> >>> Cc: "K0LNY_Glenn" <glenn at ervin.email>; <speakup at linux-speakup.org>; "Milan
> >>> Zamazal" <pdm at zamazal.org>; <Blinux-list at redhat.com>
> >>> Sent: Tuesday, August 16, 2022 8:18 AM
> >>> Subject: Re: "Accessibility in Fedora Workstation" (fwd)
> >>>
> >>>
> >>> You are right.  In Nevada, freedom pushed jaws to the rehab people and
> >>> took them out for steak diners and so forth.  I fought like hell to get
> >>> them to buy window-eyes.
> >>> 73
> >>> Butch
> >>> WA0VJR
> >>> Node 3148
> >>> Wallace, ks.
> >>>
> >>>
> >>> On Sun, 14 Aug 2022, Karen Lewellen wrote:
> >>>
> >>>> And where do these employers learn about jaws?
> >>>> In fact, provide if you do not mind an example of how  this works
> >>>> exactly.
> >>>> after all, unless I am incorrect, these employers are not personal Jaws
> >>>> users, meaning someone they trust continues to sell them on an expensive
> >>>> program instead of a largely free one.
> >>>>
> >>>>
> >>>>
> >>>> On Sat, 13 Aug 2022, K0LNY_Glenn wrote:
> >>>>
> >>>>>   Karen,
> >>>>>   Most employers don't want NVDA, and will only allow Jaws.
> >>>>>   In Nebraska, if an employer said put on whatever works, the counselors
> >>>>>   will
> >>>>>   use NVDA, because of the cost of Jaws.
> >>>>>   If some of the clients in a call center already use Jaws, but don't
> >>>>> know
> >>>>>   NVDA, the counselor will use Jaws, because the other clients will need
> >>>>> to
> >>>>>   learn one of the two.
> >>>>>   So it's all choice, but in the workplace, it depends on what the
> >>>>> employer
> >>>>>   will allow.
> >>>>>   Also, sometimes scripts need to be made, and there are more Jaws
> >>>>> scripters
> >>>>>   available than there are NVDA add-on writers.
> >>>>>   So this perception that Jaws is forced by rehab, from my 31 years in
> >>>>> the
> >>>>>   business I can say is rubbish.
> >>>>>   Now, if a counselor did not know how to use NVDA, and either may be
> >>>>>   chosen,
> >>>>>   the rehab counselor is able to select the one that the counselor feels
> >>>>> is
> >>>>>   best for the student and for the counselor's teaching.
> >>>>>   When it comes to part B moneys, which is used for non-vocational
> >>>>>   purchases,
> >>>>>   where a lot of Jaws purchases come from, it is in the agency's best
> >>>>>   interest
> >>>>>   to spend as little as possible, because that doesn't come back like VR
> >>>>>   expenditures do.
> >>>>>   Glenn
> >>>>>
> >>>>>   ----- Original Message -----
> >>>>>   From: "Karen Lewellen" <klewellen at shellworld.net>
> >>>>>   To: "K0LNY_Glenn" <glenn at ervin.email>
> >>>>>   Cc: <speakup at linux-speakup.org>; "Milan Zamazal" <pdm at zamazal.org>;
> >>>>>   <Blinux-list at redhat.com>
> >>>>>   Sent: Saturday, August 13, 2022 6:15 PM
> >>>>>   Subject: Re: "Accessibility in Fedora Workstation" (fwd)
> >>>>>
> >>>>>
> >>>>>   The challenge with that example is that, as one often gets reminded,
> >>>>> the
> >>>>>   rehab systems track record for facilitating  employment for their
> >>>>> clients
> >>>>>   is quite poor.
> >>>>>   With a high percentage of unemployment among our clients.  Making,
> >>>>>   speaking personally, your buying Jaws for personal use not really
> >>>>>   reflecting how the system would respond to an alternative request.
> >>>>>   Now if someone from organized rehab said, okay freedom scientific, we
> >>>>> are
> >>>>>   creating an employment program where our clients will train in Linux,
> >>>>>   needing a solid screen reader solution for the system.  We will give
> >>>>> you
> >>>>>   an
> >>>>>   exclusive development contract for s millions to create the tool.
> >>>>>   Fs would likely say where do we sign?
> >>>>>
> >>>>>
> >>>>>
> >>>>>   On Sat, 13 Aug 2022, K0LNY_Glenn wrote:
> >>>>>
> >>>>>>   True enough, but largely, rehab people typically use Windows at work,
> >>>>>>   and
> >>>>>>   probably at home, but they need to cater to the needs of the client.
> >>>>>>   If a client used Linux, I doubt that any rehab counselor would
> >>>>>> advocate
> >>>>>>   that
> >>>>>>   the client switch to Windows, unless that was needed for a specific
> >>>>>> job.
> >>>>>>   In Nebraska, we purchased Jaws much more for personal use than we did
> >>>>>>   for
> >>>>>>   work related situations.
> >>>>>>   So if FS made a JFL, and people were using Linux, rehab would indeed
> >>>>>>   purchase a JFL product.
> >>>>>>   Glenn
> >>>>>>   ----- Original Message -----
> >>>>>>   From: "Karen Lewellen" <klewellen at shellworld.net>
> >>>>>>   To: "K0LNY_Glenn" <glenn at ervin.email>
> >>>>>>   Cc: <speakup at linux-speakup.org>; "Milan Zamazal" <pdm at zamazal.org>;
> >>>>>>   <Blinux-list at redhat.com>
> >>>>>>   Sent: Saturday, August 13, 2022 3:01 PM
> >>>>>>   Subject: Re: "Accessibility in Fedora Workstation" (fwd)
> >>>>>>
> >>>>>>
> >>>>>>   there was an interesting discussion a month or so back on the blinux
> >>>>>>   list
> >>>>>>   about how long it took completing tasks in the gui as apposed to say
> >>>>>>   command line,  the comments were quite informative.
> >>>>>>   Still, fs has never marketed largely to the end user. Instead they
> >>>>>>   market
> >>>>>>   to the American rehab community.
> >>>>>>   how much market research has  the rehab community done to support the
> >>>>>>   need
> >>>>>>   for choices?
> >>>>>>   How many rehab counselors support  training in Linux?
> >>>>>>   one comment made by the subject of this thread about poor quality
> >>>>>> speech
> >>>>>>   is a fine one...out of the box Linux has few speech choices.
> >>>>>> everyone
> >>>>>>   brings their needs to the table there.
> >>>>>>
> >>>>>>   if you want to get fs to care about Linux, you  need to prove there
> >>>>>> is
> >>>>>>   money for  them there, from their main source of income.
> >>>>>>
> >>>>>>
> >>>>>>
> >>>>>>   On Sat, 13 Aug 2022, K0LNY_Glenn wrote:
> >>>>>>
> >>>>>>>   Well since Orca seems to work on so many distros, I don't know why
> >>>>>>> FS
> >>>>>>>   would
> >>>>>>>   not be able to do the same.
> >>>>>>>   If Jaws users could switch into Linux, it would be a real game
> >>>>>>>   changer,
> >>>>>>>   and
> >>>>>>>   I think with lots more Blind Linux users, we would start seeing
> >>>>>>>   accessibility in Linux not being a second thought.
> >>>>>>>   Glenn
> >>>>>>>   ----- Original Message -----
> >>>>>>>   From: "Karen Lewellen" <klewellen at shellworld.net>
> >>>>>>>   To: "K0LNY_Glenn" <glenn at ervin.email>
> >>>>>>>   Cc: <speakup at linux-speakup.org>; "Milan Zamazal" <pdm at zamazal.org>;
> >>>>>>>   <Blinux-list at redhat.com>
> >>>>>>>   Sent: Saturday, August 13, 2022 1:47 PM
> >>>>>>>   Subject: Re: "Accessibility in Fedora Workstation" (fwd)
> >>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>   Well technically freedom scientific does not exist any longer, being
> >>>>>>>   bought
> >>>>>>>   by another company.
> >>>>>>>   Still, I can respect why they, or nvda have not created their tools
> >>>>>>>   for
> >>>>>>>   Linux.
> >>>>>>>   That is because as I understand it, Linux is  quite like clay. You
> >>>>>>> can
> >>>>>>>   mold a distribution into almost anything. there are various
> >>>>>>>   personifications of the system, all sorts of ways and changes and
> >>>>>>>   options
> >>>>>>>   for creativity.
> >>>>>>>   however adaptive tools are often extensions of physical
> >>>>>>>   characteristics,
> >>>>>>>   hands, eyes, ears, brains, combinations of these.
> >>>>>>>   To build solid assistive tools one must have a solid  foundation as
> >>>>>>> it
> >>>>>>>   were.  that is part of why there have needed to be so few Apple
> >>>>>>>   efforts
> >>>>>>>   at
> >>>>>>>   inclusion, they  created  with, and then created in-house adaptive
> >>>>>>>   tools
> >>>>>>>   for various  populations that were built into the system.
> >>>>>>>   Although Microsoft did not bother until much later, in theory at
> >>>>>>>   least,
> >>>>>>>   the
> >>>>>>>   consistency of windows is what makes it possible for freedom or the
> >>>>>>>   former
> >>>>>>>   gw  micro or nvda to create something that can in theory  work.
> >>>>>>>   Floor for the furniture is somewhat solid.
> >>>>>>>   Just my thoughts,
> >>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>   On Sat, 13 Aug 2022, K0LNY_Glenn wrote:
> >>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>   I would like to see Freedom Scientific make a Jaws For Linux.
> >>>>>>>>   JFL
> >>>>>>>>   I'd certainly pay the yearly rental fee for it, and it would bring
> >>>>>>>>   many
> >>>>>>>>   more
> >>>>>>>>   users into Linux.
> >>>>>>>>   FS could, with its resources, possibly make it more robust than
> >>>>>>>>   Orca.
> >>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>   Glenn
> >>>>>>>>   ----- Original Message -----
> >>>>>>>>   From: "Milan Zamazal" <pdm at zamazal.org>
> >>>>>>>>   To: <speakup at linux-speakup.org>
> >>>>>>>>   Cc: <Blinux-list at redhat.com>
> >>>>>>>>   Sent: Saturday, August 13, 2022 12:08 PM
> >>>>>>>>   Subject: Re: "Accessibility in Fedora Workstation" (fwd)
> >>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>   "KL" == Karen Lewellen <klewellen at shellworld.net>
> >>>>>>>>>>>>> writes:
> >>>>>>>> KL>  What bothers me most are his lack of actual qualifications,
> >>>>>>>> and
> >>>>>>>> KL>  absolute dismissal of what he has not experienced..as if he
> >>>>>>>> KL>  defines Linux usage for everyone.  That attitude is dangerous,
> >>>>>>>> KL>  because he is educating those outside of the accessibility
> >>>>>>>> KL>  experiences, who will believe his ignorance is factual.  he
> >>>>>>>> has
> >>>>>>>> KL>  to be expert, it is his job.
> >>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>   Hi Karen,
> >>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>   I know Lukas personally and I admire his skills and
> >>>>>>>> qualifications.
> >>>>>>>>   I
> >>>>>>>>   also know first hand that he is open to constructive feedback and
> >>>>>>>> I
> >>>>>>>>   believe he??Td be happy to be corrected about possible technical
> >>>>>>>>   inaccuracies in the interview.  It may be also a good opportunity
> >>>>>>>> to
> >>>>>>>>   find out what??Ts possibly missing in making anybody better
> >>>>>>>>   informed.
> >>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>   As for ??oabsolute dismissal of what he has not experienced???,
> >>>>>>>> what
> >>>>>>>>   reasonable free software alternatives to a less or more standard
> >>>>>>>>   desktop
> >>>>>>>>   with Orca and a software synthesizer can you see for a common
> >>>>>>>> blind
> >>>>>>>>   user
> >>>>>>>>   who needs to use a fully working web browser, to read and process
> >>>>>>>>   text
> >>>>>>>>   documents, to be compatible with other computer users, etc.?
> >>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>   And let??Ts be realistic.  We celebrate every single developer
> >>>>>>>> hired
> >>>>>>>>   to
> >>>>>>>>   improve accessibility.  This tells something about the state of
> >>>>>>>> the
> >>>>>>>>   matters.  We cannot expect that a single person will fix all the
> >>>>>>>>   kinds
> >>>>>>>>   of accessibility problems in all the environments.  Lukas works at
> >>>>>>>>   his
> >>>>>>>>   job focusing on certain areas currently seen there as urgent ones
> >>>>>>>>   and I
> >>>>>>>>   appreciate this opportunity.  Anybody else seeing a need to work
> >>>>>>>> on
> >>>>>>>>   other areas is welcome to contribute to whatever sees fit, as I
> >>>>>>>> do.
> >>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>   Regards,
> >>>>>>>>   Milan
> >>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>
> >>
> >
> > _______________________________________________
> > Blinux-list mailing list
> > Blinux-list at redhat.com
> > https://listman.redhat.com/mailman/listinfo/blinux-list
>
> _______________________________________________
> Blinux-list mailing list
> Blinux-list at redhat.com
> https://listman.redhat.com/mailman/listinfo/blinux-list
>

"Accessibility in Fedora Workstation" (fwd)

[blinux-list]

Good morning everyone I have a basic question regarding this distribution.
Does orca come with it, or is it something that must be incorporated after
installation? If orca does come with the distribution meeting is a part of
it. What is the download link for the ISO image?

I currently have Ubuntu in a virtual machine on my MacBook Pro. I know I'm
writing this on a Windows PC but that's because there is no effective
dictation software for the Mac at present time. Dragon on the Windows
machine is it.

Unfortunately my last use of my Ubuntu distribution meeting already set up
with orca installed etc. was six months ago. Because I'm needing to get back
into using Lennix for some things I've decided it's time to start making
certain I know how to do this by practicing.

I do have something Lennix like on the PC it's the Microsoft shell
implementation. Of Ubuntu in a shell better known as Wsl. 

In closing, I used to use Fedora many years ago when I was friends with one
of the principal people involved in the Speakup project. Unfortunately some
of you may know that that person passed away some years ago "the late
William F Acker" this thread is of some interest to me because I kinda would
like to get back to using Fedora. Rather than Ubuntu.

I look forward to reading everyone's comments. Please be aware that the
above has been dictated. So there may in fact be unwanted mistakes. No
matter what platform one uses, dictation software will never get what is
said absolutely correctly. So if there's something you really truly don't
understand, please reach out to me and asked me what did I really mean.

Finally, if people wish to correspond directly with me off this list, please
send all email to the email address that I read the most. That is
maurice at maurice-amines.com.
-----Original Message-----
From: Blinux-list <blinux-list-bounces at redhat.com> On Behalf Of Linux for
blind general discussion
Sent: Wednesday, August 17, 2022 12:26 AM
To: Linux for blind general discussion <blinux-list at redhat.com>
Subject: Re: "Accessibility in Fedora Workstation" (fwd)

In orca in a terminal environment I can use vi variants other than elvis by
use of the -e option.  That -e option turns what would be a screen-oriented
editor into a line-oriented editor.  Once that happens I can confidently
know I'll be working with smaller objects than the entire screen.  When I
used dos professionally my go to tool for editing was edlin and not edit.  I
can and do use emacs but not to the level the experts with emacs do.


Jude <jdashiel at panix dot com> .

On Wed, 17 Aug 2022, Linux for blind general discussion wrote:

> Let me chime in here from the opposition point of view.
>
> Having used both the paid screen readers (JAWS and also GwMicro) and many
of the free screen readers, The paid ones may have more features and are
probably tuned a bit more closely to work in a specified OS, but the free
ones often times offer more latitude when dealing with non-standard content.
>
> Now, some other considerations, not all computer systems can handle a full
GUI (case in point: the RaspberryPi 3 series of which I have 1). So, the use
of a console there is a must and I use several of the console available
screen readers, Like BrltTY, Emacsspeak, Speakup and others). There are
times when this is very useful when the full GUI might present some issues.
>
> Now, this doesn?t mean I haven?t stopped using full GUI interfaces. I
have, for the most part, stuck with either JAWS or NVDA on windows (what one
can?t read, the other might), Voiceover on OS X and any of the half dozen or
so screen readers available in Linux (ORCA being the primary for GUI and
anything else for console as needed). Each has their flaws and each has
their strengths and it doesn?t hurt to know them all. Believe me, try using
VI or NANO in a terminal with ORCA. It doesn?t work very well. However, the
others work very well there, but not so well inside the GUI. It all depends
on what you need to do. It?s called using the right tool for the right job.
>
> -Eric
> From the Central Offices of the Technomage Guild, Tool Maintenance Dept.
>
>
> > On Aug 16, 2022, at 11:26 AM, Linux for blind general discussion
<blinux-list at redhat.com> wrote:
> >
> > Actually, I'd like to know where you got the idea that it's just a
rumor. It is not. I was personally involved at the time, arguing strenuously
against the policy. I can give you names of people at the NFB who backed the
policy if you'd like.
> >
> > The NFB's reasoning was that a free screen reader would not be as good
as one you had to pay for. They reasoned that Microsoft had little
motivation to keep on improving their screen reader but it might be enough
to drive Freedom Scientific out of business. As a Linux user, I felt that
reasoning was flawed mainly because I felt free, open source  screen readers
were right around the corner anyway. I believe I was using Speakup and
something called Nupernicus on Linux at the time.
> >
> > This is absolutely not a rumor.
> >
> >
> > On 8/16/22 12:31, K0LNY_Glenn wrote:
> >> That is hear-say, an old rumor that has been recycled countless times.
> >> Glenn
> >> ----- Original Message -----
> >> From: "John G. Heim" <jheim at wisc.edu>
> >> To: "K0LNY_Glenn" <glenn at ervin.email>; "Butch Bussen"
> >> <butchb at shellworld.net>; "Karen Lewellen" 
> >> <klewellen at shellworld.net>
> >> Cc: <speakup at linux-speakup.org>; "Milan Zamazal" <pdm at zamazal.org>; 
> >> <Blinux-list at redhat.com>
> >> Sent: Tuesday, August 16, 2022 11:49 AM
> >> Subject: Re: "Accessibility in Fedora Workstation" (fwd)
> >>
> >>
> >> Holy cow! Are you aware that the NFB once asked Microsoft to *NOT* 
> >> improve Narrator to the point where it would compete with Jaws? If 
> >> you think the NFB is incapable of forcing choices on people, you 
> >> are very sadly mistaken.
> >>
> >>
> >>
> >> On 8/16/22 09:36, K0LNY_Glenn wrote:
> >>> This sort of thing would never happen in Nebraska, or any state 
> >>> where the agency staff is of the NFB philosophy.
> >>> Say what you want about the NFB, no organization is without its 
> >>> problems, but it is the core philosophy that formed the NFB that 
> >>> knows that society has low expectations of the Blind, and this is 
> >>> why the NFB believes in skills and high expectations.
> >>> And with that, comes giving respect to the Blind, like the respect 
> >>> of choice.
> >>> Yeah I know about the information of recent about NFB abuse, but 
> >>> this is organizational issues, unrelated to the philosophy.  In 
> >>> fact, the fact that it has come up demonstrates that the NFB is no 
> >>> different than any other organization in interpersonal staff 
> >>> issues.
> >>> And choice does not mean training center choices.
> >>> Choice isn't always an option, just like if you took a vocational 
> >>> course in college, there are things you have to take, so to me, 
> >>> the lack of choice in this regard is different than computer 
> >>> software, where all the choices will reach the same end result.
> >>> In states where the NFB philosophy is embraced, if a client said I 
> >>> want to use a Mac, or I want Window Eyes, then that is what they 
> >>> would get, no questions asked.
> >>> They would not have to fight to get it.
> >>> I simply cannot imagine a counselor saying that someone has to use 
> >>> the software that the counselor wants them to have.
> >>> When I hear that stuff, I almost cannot believe it, but I know 
> >>> Butch well enough to know he wouldn't make that up.
> >>>
> >>> Glenn
> >>> ----- Original Message -----
> >>> From: "Butch Bussen" <butchb at shellworld.net>
> >>> To: "Karen Lewellen" <klewellen at shellworld.net>
> >>> Cc: "K0LNY_Glenn" <glenn at ervin.email>; 
> >>> <speakup at linux-speakup.org>; "Milan Zamazal" <pdm at zamazal.org>; 
> >>> <Blinux-list at redhat.com>
> >>> Sent: Tuesday, August 16, 2022 8:18 AM
> >>> Subject: Re: "Accessibility in Fedora Workstation" (fwd)
> >>>
> >>>
> >>> You are right.  In Nevada, freedom pushed jaws to the rehab people 
> >>> and took them out for steak diners and so forth.  I fought like 
> >>> hell to get them to buy window-eyes.
> >>> 73
> >>> Butch
> >>> WA0VJR
> >>> Node 3148
> >>> Wallace, ks.
> >>>
> >>>
> >>> On Sun, 14 Aug 2022, Karen Lewellen wrote:
> >>>
> >>>> And where do these employers learn about jaws?
> >>>> In fact, provide if you do not mind an example of how  this works 
> >>>> exactly.
> >>>> after all, unless I am incorrect, these employers are not 
> >>>> personal Jaws users, meaning someone they trust continues to sell 
> >>>> them on an expensive program instead of a largely free one.
> >>>>
> >>>>
> >>>>
> >>>> On Sat, 13 Aug 2022, K0LNY_Glenn wrote:
> >>>>
> >>>>>   Karen,
> >>>>>   Most employers don't want NVDA, and will only allow Jaws.
> >>>>>   In Nebraska, if an employer said put on whatever works, the
counselors
> >>>>>   will
> >>>>>   use NVDA, because of the cost of Jaws.
> >>>>>   If some of the clients in a call center already use Jaws, but 
> >>>>> don't know
> >>>>>   NVDA, the counselor will use Jaws, because the other clients 
> >>>>> will need to
> >>>>>   learn one of the two.
> >>>>>   So it's all choice, but in the workplace, it depends on what 
> >>>>> the employer
> >>>>>   will allow.
> >>>>>   Also, sometimes scripts need to be made, and there are more 
> >>>>> Jaws scripters
> >>>>>   available than there are NVDA add-on writers.
> >>>>>   So this perception that Jaws is forced by rehab, from my 31 
> >>>>> years in the
> >>>>>   business I can say is rubbish.
> >>>>>   Now, if a counselor did not know how to use NVDA, and either may
be
> >>>>>   chosen,
> >>>>>   the rehab counselor is able to select the one that the 
> >>>>> counselor feels is
> >>>>>   best for the student and for the counselor's teaching.
> >>>>>   When it comes to part B moneys, which is used for non-vocational
> >>>>>   purchases,
> >>>>>   where a lot of Jaws purchases come from, it is in the agency's
best
> >>>>>   interest
> >>>>>   to spend as little as possible, because that doesn't come back
like VR
> >>>>>   expenditures do.
> >>>>>   Glenn
> >>>>>
> >>>>>   ----- Original Message -----
> >>>>>   From: "Karen Lewellen" <klewellen at shellworld.net>
> >>>>>   To: "K0LNY_Glenn" <glenn at ervin.email>
> >>>>>   Cc: <speakup at linux-speakup.org>; "Milan Zamazal"
<pdm at zamazal.org>;
> >>>>>   <Blinux-list at redhat.com>
> >>>>>   Sent: Saturday, August 13, 2022 6:15 PM
> >>>>>   Subject: Re: "Accessibility in Fedora Workstation" (fwd)
> >>>>>
> >>>>>
> >>>>>   The challenge with that example is that, as one often gets 
> >>>>> reminded, the
> >>>>>   rehab systems track record for facilitating  employment for 
> >>>>> their clients
> >>>>>   is quite poor.
> >>>>>   With a high percentage of unemployment among our clients.  Making,
> >>>>>   speaking personally, your buying Jaws for personal use not really
> >>>>>   reflecting how the system would respond to an alternative request.
> >>>>>   Now if someone from organized rehab said, okay freedom 
> >>>>> scientific, we are
> >>>>>   creating an employment program where our clients will train in
Linux,
> >>>>>   needing a solid screen reader solution for the system.  We 
> >>>>> will give you
> >>>>>   an
> >>>>>   exclusive development contract for s millions to create the tool.
> >>>>>   Fs would likely say where do we sign?
> >>>>>
> >>>>>
> >>>>>
> >>>>>   On Sat, 13 Aug 2022, K0LNY_Glenn wrote:
> >>>>>
> >>>>>>   True enough, but largely, rehab people typically use Windows at
work,
> >>>>>>   and
> >>>>>>   probably at home, but they need to cater to the needs of the
client.
> >>>>>>   If a client used Linux, I doubt that any rehab counselor 
> >>>>>> would advocate
> >>>>>>   that
> >>>>>>   the client switch to Windows, unless that was needed for a 
> >>>>>> specific job.
> >>>>>>   In Nebraska, we purchased Jaws much more for personal use than we
did
> >>>>>>   for
> >>>>>>   work related situations.
> >>>>>>   So if FS made a JFL, and people were using Linux, rehab would
indeed
> >>>>>>   purchase a JFL product.
> >>>>>>   Glenn
> >>>>>>   ----- Original Message -----
> >>>>>>   From: "Karen Lewellen" <klewellen at shellworld.net>
> >>>>>>   To: "K0LNY_Glenn" <glenn at ervin.email>
> >>>>>>   Cc: <speakup at linux-speakup.org>; "Milan Zamazal"
<pdm at zamazal.org>;
> >>>>>>   <Blinux-list at redhat.com>
> >>>>>>   Sent: Saturday, August 13, 2022 3:01 PM
> >>>>>>   Subject: Re: "Accessibility in Fedora Workstation" (fwd)
> >>>>>>
> >>>>>>
> >>>>>>   there was an interesting discussion a month or so back on the
blinux
> >>>>>>   list
> >>>>>>   about how long it took completing tasks in the gui as apposed to
say
> >>>>>>   command line,  the comments were quite informative.
> >>>>>>   Still, fs has never marketed largely to the end user. Instead
they
> >>>>>>   market
> >>>>>>   to the American rehab community.
> >>>>>>   how much market research has  the rehab community done to support
the
> >>>>>>   need
> >>>>>>   for choices?
> >>>>>>   How many rehab counselors support  training in Linux?
> >>>>>>   one comment made by the subject of this thread about poor 
> >>>>>> quality speech
> >>>>>>   is a fine one...out of the box Linux has few speech choices.
> >>>>>> everyone
> >>>>>>   brings their needs to the table there.
> >>>>>>
> >>>>>>   if you want to get fs to care about Linux, you  need to prove 
> >>>>>> there is
> >>>>>>   money for  them there, from their main source of income.
> >>>>>>
> >>>>>>
> >>>>>>
> >>>>>>   On Sat, 13 Aug 2022, K0LNY_Glenn wrote:
> >>>>>>
> >>>>>>>   Well since Orca seems to work on so many distros, I don't 
> >>>>>>> know why FS
> >>>>>>>   would
> >>>>>>>   not be able to do the same.
> >>>>>>>   If Jaws users could switch into Linux, it would be a real game
> >>>>>>>   changer,
> >>>>>>>   and
> >>>>>>>   I think with lots more Blind Linux users, we would start seeing
> >>>>>>>   accessibility in Linux not being a second thought.
> >>>>>>>   Glenn
> >>>>>>>   ----- Original Message -----
> >>>>>>>   From: "Karen Lewellen" <klewellen at shellworld.net>
> >>>>>>>   To: "K0LNY_Glenn" <glenn at ervin.email>
> >>>>>>>   Cc: <speakup at linux-speakup.org>; "Milan Zamazal"
<pdm at zamazal.org>;
> >>>>>>>   <Blinux-list at redhat.com>
> >>>>>>>   Sent: Saturday, August 13, 2022 1:47 PM
> >>>>>>>   Subject: Re: "Accessibility in Fedora Workstation" (fwd)
> >>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>   Well technically freedom scientific does not exist any longer,
being
> >>>>>>>   bought
> >>>>>>>   by another company.
> >>>>>>>   Still, I can respect why they, or nvda have not created their
tools
> >>>>>>>   for
> >>>>>>>   Linux.
> >>>>>>>   That is because as I understand it, Linux is  quite like 
> >>>>>>> clay. You can
> >>>>>>>   mold a distribution into almost anything. there are various
> >>>>>>>   personifications of the system, all sorts of ways and changes
and
> >>>>>>>   options
> >>>>>>>   for creativity.
> >>>>>>>   however adaptive tools are often extensions of physical
> >>>>>>>   characteristics,
> >>>>>>>   hands, eyes, ears, brains, combinations of these.
> >>>>>>>   To build solid assistive tools one must have a solid  
> >>>>>>> foundation as it
> >>>>>>>   were.  that is part of why there have needed to be so few Apple
> >>>>>>>   efforts
> >>>>>>>   at
> >>>>>>>   inclusion, they  created  with, and then created in-house
adaptive
> >>>>>>>   tools
> >>>>>>>   for various  populations that were built into the system.
> >>>>>>>   Although Microsoft did not bother until much later, in theory at
> >>>>>>>   least,
> >>>>>>>   the
> >>>>>>>   consistency of windows is what makes it possible for freedom or
the
> >>>>>>>   former
> >>>>>>>   gw  micro or nvda to create something that can in theory  work.
> >>>>>>>   Floor for the furniture is somewhat solid.
> >>>>>>>   Just my thoughts,
> >>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>   On Sat, 13 Aug 2022, K0LNY_Glenn wrote:
> >>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>   I would like to see Freedom Scientific make a Jaws For Linux.
> >>>>>>>>   JFL
> >>>>>>>>   I'd certainly pay the yearly rental fee for it, and it would
bring
> >>>>>>>>   many
> >>>>>>>>   more
> >>>>>>>>   users into Linux.
> >>>>>>>>   FS could, with its resources, possibly make it more robust than
> >>>>>>>>   Orca.
> >>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>   Glenn
> >>>>>>>>   ----- Original Message -----
> >>>>>>>>   From: "Milan Zamazal" <pdm at zamazal.org>
> >>>>>>>>   To: <speakup at linux-speakup.org>
> >>>>>>>>   Cc: <Blinux-list at redhat.com>
> >>>>>>>>   Sent: Saturday, August 13, 2022 12:08 PM
> >>>>>>>>   Subject: Re: "Accessibility in Fedora Workstation" (fwd)
> >>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>   "KL" == Karen Lewellen <klewellen at shellworld.net>
> >>>>>>>>>>>>> writes:
> >>>>>>>> KL>  What bothers me most are his lack of actual 
> >>>>>>>> KL> qualifications,
> >>>>>>>> and
> >>>>>>>> KL>  absolute dismissal of what he has not experienced..as if 
> >>>>>>>> KL> he  defines Linux usage for everyone.  That attitude is 
> >>>>>>>> KL> dangerous,  because he is educating those outside of the 
> >>>>>>>> KL> accessibility  experiences, who will believe his 
> >>>>>>>> KL> ignorance is factual.  he
> >>>>>>>> has
> >>>>>>>> KL>  to be expert, it is his job.
> >>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>   Hi Karen,
> >>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>   I know Lukas personally and I admire his skills and 
> >>>>>>>> qualifications.
> >>>>>>>>   I
> >>>>>>>>   also know first hand that he is open to constructive 
> >>>>>>>> feedback and I
> >>>>>>>>   believe he??Td be happy to be corrected about possible
technical
> >>>>>>>>   inaccuracies in the interview.  It may be also a good 
> >>>>>>>> opportunity to
> >>>>>>>>   find out what??Ts possibly missing in making anybody better
> >>>>>>>>   informed.
> >>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>   As for ??oabsolute dismissal of what he has not 
> >>>>>>>> experienced???, what
> >>>>>>>>   reasonable free software alternatives to a less or more
standard
> >>>>>>>>   desktop
> >>>>>>>>   with Orca and a software synthesizer can you see for a 
> >>>>>>>> common blind
> >>>>>>>>   user
> >>>>>>>>   who needs to use a fully working web browser, to read and
process
> >>>>>>>>   text
> >>>>>>>>   documents, to be compatible with other computer users, etc.?
> >>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>   And let??Ts be realistic.  We celebrate every single 
> >>>>>>>> developer hired
> >>>>>>>>   to
> >>>>>>>>   improve accessibility.  This tells something about the 
> >>>>>>>> state of the
> >>>>>>>>   matters.  We cannot expect that a single person will fix all
the
> >>>>>>>>   kinds
> >>>>>>>>   of accessibility problems in all the environments.  Lukas works
at
> >>>>>>>>   his
> >>>>>>>>   job focusing on certain areas currently seen there as urgent
ones
> >>>>>>>>   and I
> >>>>>>>>   appreciate this opportunity.  Anybody else seeing a need to 
> >>>>>>>> work on
> >>>>>>>>   other areas is welcome to contribute to whatever sees fit, 
> >>>>>>>> as I do.
> >>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>   Regards,
> >>>>>>>>   Milan
> >>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>
> >>
> >
> > _______________________________________________
> > Blinux-list mailing list
> > Blinux-list at redhat.com
> > https://listman.redhat.com/mailman/listinfo/blinux-list
>
> _______________________________________________
> Blinux-list mailing list
> Blinux-list at redhat.com
> https://listman.redhat.com/mailman/listinfo/blinux-list
>

_______________________________________________
Blinux-list mailing list
Blinux-list at redhat.com
https://listman.redhat.com/mailman/listinfo/blinux-list

"Accessibility in Fedora Workstation" (fwd)

[blinux-list]

Fedora Workstation does ship with Orca, as does Fedora MATE Compiz, 
which is my chosen spin.

https://getfedora.org/

will get you to the website to download the Workstation spin, and can 
also get you to the other spins as well.

~Kyle

"Accessibility in Fedora Workstation" (fwd)

[blinux-list]

lol...addressing the entire convention?
Shortly before  freedom scientific further limited choices by taking gw 
micro off the table?
Long after apple was successfully building screen reader softer into the 
operating system?
Linux too for that matter?
I think not.



On Tue, 16 Aug 2022, K0LNY_Glenn wrote:

> Well that could have been a misinformed member, and possibly nobody agreed
> with him.
> And, at  the time, that may have been the case.
> Glenn
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: "Karen Lewellen" <klewellen at shellworld.net>
> To: "K0LNY_Glenn" <glenn at ervin.email>
> Cc: "Butch Bussen" <butchb at shellworld.net>; "John G. Heim" <jheim at wisc.edu>;
> <speakup at linux-speakup.org>; "Milan Zamazal" <pdm at zamazal.org>;
> <Blinux-list at redhat.com>
> Sent: Tuesday, August 16, 2022 12:39 PM
> Subject: Re: "Accessibility in Fedora Workstation" (fwd)
>
>
> actually, I have a copy I believe of a speech from a convention where an
> nfb member  stated that built in screen readers were bad for the
> blind...so, I doubt that rumor is false.
>
>
>
> On Tue, 16 Aug 2022, K0LNY_Glenn wrote:
>
>> That is hear-say, an old rumor that has been recycled countless times.
>> Glenn
>> ----- Original Message -----
>> From: "John G. Heim" <jheim at wisc.edu>
>> To: "K0LNY_Glenn" <glenn at ervin.email>; "Butch Bussen"
>> <butchb at shellworld.net>; "Karen Lewellen" <klewellen at shellworld.net>
>> Cc: <speakup at linux-speakup.org>; "Milan Zamazal" <pdm at zamazal.org>;
>> <Blinux-list at redhat.com>
>> Sent: Tuesday, August 16, 2022 11:49 AM
>> Subject: Re: "Accessibility in Fedora Workstation" (fwd)
>>
>>
>> Holy cow! Are you aware that the NFB once asked Microsoft to *NOT*
>> improve Narrator to the point where it would compete with Jaws? If you
>> think the NFB is incapable of forcing choices on people, you are very
>> sadly mistaken.
>>
>>
>>
>> On 8/16/22 09:36, K0LNY_Glenn wrote:
>>> This sort of thing would never happen in Nebraska, or any state where the
>>> agency staff is of the NFB philosophy.
>>> Say what you want about the NFB, no organization is without its problems,
>>> but it is the core philosophy that formed the NFB that knows that society
>>> has low expectations of the Blind, and this is why the NFB believes in
>>> skills and high expectations.
>>> And with that, comes giving respect to the Blind, like the respect of
>>> choice.
>>> Yeah I know about the information of recent about NFB abuse, but this is
>>> organizational issues, unrelated to the philosophy.  In fact, the fact
>>> that
>>> it has come up demonstrates that the NFB is no different than any other
>>> organization in interpersonal staff issues.
>>> And choice does not mean training center choices.
>>> Choice isn't always an option, just like if you took a vocational course
>>> in
>>> college, there are things you have to take, so to me, the lack of choice
>>> in
>>> this regard is different than computer software, where all the choices
>>> will
>>> reach the same end result.
>>> In states where the NFB philosophy is embraced, if a client said I want
>>> to
>>> use a Mac, or I want Window Eyes, then that is what they would get, no
>>> questions asked.
>>> They would not have to fight to get it.
>>> I simply cannot imagine a counselor saying that someone has to use the
>>> software that the counselor wants them to have.
>>> When I hear that stuff, I almost cannot believe it, but I know Butch well
>>> enough to know he wouldn't make that up.
>>>
>>> Glenn
>>> ----- Original Message -----
>>> From: "Butch Bussen" <butchb at shellworld.net>
>>> To: "Karen Lewellen" <klewellen at shellworld.net>
>>> Cc: "K0LNY_Glenn" <glenn at ervin.email>; <speakup at linux-speakup.org>;
>>> "Milan
>>> Zamazal" <pdm at zamazal.org>; <Blinux-list at redhat.com>
>>> Sent: Tuesday, August 16, 2022 8:18 AM
>>> Subject: Re: "Accessibility in Fedora Workstation" (fwd)
>>>
>>>
>>> You are right.  In Nevada, freedom pushed jaws to the rehab people and
>>> took them out for steak diners and so forth.  I fought like hell to get
>>> them to buy window-eyes.
>>> 73
>>> Butch
>>> WA0VJR
>>> Node 3148
>>> Wallace, ks.
>>>
>>>
>>> On Sun, 14 Aug 2022, Karen Lewellen wrote:
>>>
>>>> And where do these employers learn about jaws?
>>>> In fact, provide if you do not mind an example of how  this works
>>>> exactly.
>>>> after all, unless I am incorrect, these employers are not personal Jaws
>>>> users, meaning someone they trust continues to sell them on an expensive
>>>> program instead of a largely free one.
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> On Sat, 13 Aug 2022, K0LNY_Glenn wrote:
>>>>
>>>>>   Karen,
>>>>>   Most employers don't want NVDA, and will only allow Jaws.
>>>>>   In Nebraska, if an employer said put on whatever works, the
>>>>> counselors
>>>>>   will
>>>>>   use NVDA, because of the cost of Jaws.
>>>>>   If some of the clients in a call center already use Jaws, but don't
>>>>> know
>>>>>   NVDA, the counselor will use Jaws, because the other clients will
>>>>> need
>>>>> to
>>>>>   learn one of the two.
>>>>>   So it's all choice, but in the workplace, it depends on what the
>>>>> employer
>>>>>   will allow.
>>>>>   Also, sometimes scripts need to be made, and there are more Jaws
>>>>> scripters
>>>>>   available than there are NVDA add-on writers.
>>>>>   So this perception that Jaws is forced by rehab, from my 31 years in
>>>>> the
>>>>>   business I can say is rubbish.
>>>>>   Now, if a counselor did not know how to use NVDA, and either may be
>>>>>   chosen,
>>>>>   the rehab counselor is able to select the one that the counselor
>>>>> feels
>>>>> is
>>>>>   best for the student and for the counselor's teaching.
>>>>>   When it comes to part B moneys, which is used for non-vocational
>>>>>   purchases,
>>>>>   where a lot of Jaws purchases come from, it is in the agency's best
>>>>>   interest
>>>>>   to spend as little as possible, because that doesn't come back like
>>>>> VR
>>>>>   expenditures do.
>>>>>   Glenn
>>>>>
>>>>>   ----- Original Message -----
>>>>>   From: "Karen Lewellen" <klewellen at shellworld.net>
>>>>>   To: "K0LNY_Glenn" <glenn at ervin.email>
>>>>>   Cc: <speakup at linux-speakup.org>; "Milan Zamazal" <pdm at zamazal.org>;
>>>>>   <Blinux-list at redhat.com>
>>>>>   Sent: Saturday, August 13, 2022 6:15 PM
>>>>>   Subject: Re: "Accessibility in Fedora Workstation" (fwd)
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>   The challenge with that example is that, as one often gets reminded,
>>>>> the
>>>>>   rehab systems track record for facilitating  employment for their
>>>>> clients
>>>>>   is quite poor.
>>>>>   With a high percentage of unemployment among our clients.  Making,
>>>>>   speaking personally, your buying Jaws for personal use not really
>>>>>   reflecting how the system would respond to an alternative request.
>>>>>   Now if someone from organized rehab said, okay freedom scientific, we
>>>>> are
>>>>>   creating an employment program where our clients will train in Linux,
>>>>>   needing a solid screen reader solution for the system.  We will give
>>>>> you
>>>>>   an
>>>>>   exclusive development contract for s millions to create the tool.
>>>>>   Fs would likely say where do we sign?
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>   On Sat, 13 Aug 2022, K0LNY_Glenn wrote:
>>>>>
>>>>>>   True enough, but largely, rehab people typically use Windows at
>>>>>> work,
>>>>>>   and
>>>>>>   probably at home, but they need to cater to the needs of the client.
>>>>>>   If a client used Linux, I doubt that any rehab counselor would
>>>>>> advocate
>>>>>>   that
>>>>>>   the client switch to Windows, unless that was needed for a specific
>>>>>> job.
>>>>>>   In Nebraska, we purchased Jaws much more for personal use than we
>>>>>> did
>>>>>>   for
>>>>>>   work related situations.
>>>>>>   So if FS made a JFL, and people were using Linux, rehab would indeed
>>>>>>   purchase a JFL product.
>>>>>>   Glenn
>>>>>>   ----- Original Message -----
>>>>>>   From: "Karen Lewellen" <klewellen at shellworld.net>
>>>>>>   To: "K0LNY_Glenn" <glenn at ervin.email>
>>>>>>   Cc: <speakup at linux-speakup.org>; "Milan Zamazal" <pdm at zamazal.org>;
>>>>>>   <Blinux-list at redhat.com>
>>>>>>   Sent: Saturday, August 13, 2022 3:01 PM
>>>>>>   Subject: Re: "Accessibility in Fedora Workstation" (fwd)
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>   there was an interesting discussion a month or so back on the blinux
>>>>>>   list
>>>>>>   about how long it took completing tasks in the gui as apposed to say
>>>>>>   command line,  the comments were quite informative.
>>>>>>   Still, fs has never marketed largely to the end user. Instead they
>>>>>>   market
>>>>>>   to the American rehab community.
>>>>>>   how much market research has  the rehab community done to support
>>>>>> the
>>>>>>   need
>>>>>>   for choices?
>>>>>>   How many rehab counselors support  training in Linux?
>>>>>>   one comment made by the subject of this thread about poor quality
>>>>>> speech
>>>>>>   is a fine one...out of the box Linux has few speech choices.
>>>>>> everyone
>>>>>>   brings their needs to the table there.
>>>>>>
>>>>>>   if you want to get fs to care about Linux, you  need to prove there
>>>>>> is
>>>>>>   money for  them there, from their main source of income.
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>   On Sat, 13 Aug 2022, K0LNY_Glenn wrote:
>>>>>>
>>>>>>>   Well since Orca seems to work on so many distros, I don't know why
>>>>>>> FS
>>>>>>>   would
>>>>>>>   not be able to do the same.
>>>>>>>   If Jaws users could switch into Linux, it would be a real game
>>>>>>>   changer,
>>>>>>>   and
>>>>>>>   I think with lots more Blind Linux users, we would start seeing
>>>>>>>   accessibility in Linux not being a second thought.
>>>>>>>   Glenn
>>>>>>>   ----- Original Message -----
>>>>>>>   From: "Karen Lewellen" <klewellen at shellworld.net>
>>>>>>>   To: "K0LNY_Glenn" <glenn at ervin.email>
>>>>>>>   Cc: <speakup at linux-speakup.org>; "Milan Zamazal" <pdm at zamazal.org>;
>>>>>>>   <Blinux-list at redhat.com>
>>>>>>>   Sent: Saturday, August 13, 2022 1:47 PM
>>>>>>>   Subject: Re: "Accessibility in Fedora Workstation" (fwd)
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>   Well technically freedom scientific does not exist any longer,
>>>>>>> being
>>>>>>>   bought
>>>>>>>   by another company.
>>>>>>>   Still, I can respect why they, or nvda have not created their tools
>>>>>>>   for
>>>>>>>   Linux.
>>>>>>>   That is because as I understand it, Linux is  quite like clay. You
>>>>>>> can
>>>>>>>   mold a distribution into almost anything. there are various
>>>>>>>   personifications of the system, all sorts of ways and changes and
>>>>>>>   options
>>>>>>>   for creativity.
>>>>>>>   however adaptive tools are often extensions of physical
>>>>>>>   characteristics,
>>>>>>>   hands, eyes, ears, brains, combinations of these.
>>>>>>>   To build solid assistive tools one must have a solid  foundation as
>>>>>>> it
>>>>>>>   were.  that is part of why there have needed to be so few Apple
>>>>>>>   efforts
>>>>>>>   at
>>>>>>>   inclusion, they  created  with, and then created in-house adaptive
>>>>>>>   tools
>>>>>>>   for various  populations that were built into the system.
>>>>>>>   Although Microsoft did not bother until much later, in theory at
>>>>>>>   least,
>>>>>>>   the
>>>>>>>   consistency of windows is what makes it possible for freedom or the
>>>>>>>   former
>>>>>>>   gw  micro or nvda to create something that can in theory  work.
>>>>>>>   Floor for the furniture is somewhat solid.
>>>>>>>   Just my thoughts,
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>   On Sat, 13 Aug 2022, K0LNY_Glenn wrote:
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>   I would like to see Freedom Scientific make a Jaws For Linux.
>>>>>>>>   JFL
>>>>>>>>   I'd certainly pay the yearly rental fee for it, and it would bring
>>>>>>>>   many
>>>>>>>>   more
>>>>>>>>   users into Linux.
>>>>>>>>   FS could, with its resources, possibly make it more robust than
>>>>>>>>   Orca.
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>   Glenn
>>>>>>>>   ----- Original Message -----
>>>>>>>>   From: "Milan Zamazal" <pdm at zamazal.org>
>>>>>>>>   To: <speakup at linux-speakup.org>
>>>>>>>>   Cc: <Blinux-list at redhat.com>
>>>>>>>>   Sent: Saturday, August 13, 2022 12:08 PM
>>>>>>>>   Subject: Re: "Accessibility in Fedora Workstation" (fwd)
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>   "KL" == Karen Lewellen <klewellen at shellworld.net>
>>>>>>>>>>>>> writes:
>>>>>>>> KL>  What bothers me most are his lack of actual qualifications,
>>>>>>>> and
>>>>>>>> KL>  absolute dismissal of what he has not experienced..as if he
>>>>>>>> KL>  defines Linux usage for everyone.  That attitude is dangerous,
>>>>>>>> KL>  because he is educating those outside of the accessibility
>>>>>>>> KL>  experiences, who will believe his ignorance is factual.  he
>>>>>>>> has
>>>>>>>> KL>  to be expert, it is his job.
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>   Hi Karen,
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>   I know Lukas personally and I admire his skills and
>>>>>>>> qualifications.
>>>>>>>>   I
>>>>>>>>   also know first hand that he is open to constructive feedback and
>>>>>>>> I
>>>>>>>>   believe he??Td be happy to be corrected about possible technical
>>>>>>>>   inaccuracies in the interview.  It may be also a good opportunity
>>>>>>>> to
>>>>>>>>   find out what??Ts possibly missing in making anybody better
>>>>>>>>   informed.
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>   As for ??oabsolute dismissal of what he has not experienced???,
>>>>>>>> what
>>>>>>>>   reasonable free software alternatives to a less or more standard
>>>>>>>>   desktop
>>>>>>>>   with Orca and a software synthesizer can you see for a common
>>>>>>>> blind
>>>>>>>>   user
>>>>>>>>   who needs to use a fully working web browser, to read and process
>>>>>>>>   text
>>>>>>>>   documents, to be compatible with other computer users, etc.?
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>   And let??Ts be realistic.  We celebrate every single developer
>>>>>>>> hired
>>>>>>>>   to
>>>>>>>>   improve accessibility.  This tells something about the state of
>>>>>>>> the
>>>>>>>>   matters.  We cannot expect that a single person will fix all the
>>>>>>>>   kinds
>>>>>>>>   of accessibility problems in all the environments.  Lukas works at
>>>>>>>>   his
>>>>>>>>   job focusing on certain areas currently seen there as urgent ones
>>>>>>>>   and I
>>>>>>>>   appreciate this opportunity.  Anybody else seeing a need to work
>>>>>>>> on
>>>>>>>>   other areas is welcome to contribute to whatever sees fit, as I
>>>>>>>> do.
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>   Regards,
>>>>>>>>   Milan
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>
>>
>>
>
>

"Accessibility in Fedora Workstation" (fwd)

[blinux-list]

Several years ago, I talked with Dave Bolnick who at that time was
Microsoft Accessibility Team lead and he told me the same thing about the
N.F.B.


Jude <jdashiel at panix dot com> .

On Wed, 17 Aug 2022, Butch Bussen wrote:

> It isn't just a rumor.  I was heavily involved with gw micro at that time, and
> nfb's reasoning was it would stop development of screen readers.  Gw was
> working with microsoft at that time and I got it directly from Doug.
> 73
> Butch
> WA0VJR
> Node 3148
> Wallace, ks.
>
>
> On Tue, 16 Aug 2022, K0LNY_Glenn wrote:
>
> > That is hear-say, an old rumor that has been recycled countless times.
> > Glenn
> > ----- Original Message -----
> > From: "John G. Heim" <jheim at wisc.edu>
> > To: "K0LNY_Glenn" <glenn at ervin.email>; "Butch Bussen"
> > <butchb at shellworld.net>; "Karen Lewellen" <klewellen at shellworld.net>
> > Cc: <speakup at linux-speakup.org>; "Milan Zamazal" <pdm at zamazal.org>;
> > <Blinux-list at redhat.com>
> > Sent: Tuesday, August 16, 2022 11:49 AM
> > Subject: Re: "Accessibility in Fedora Workstation" (fwd)
> >
> >
> > Holy cow! Are you aware that the NFB once asked Microsoft to *NOT*
> > improve Narrator to the point where it would compete with Jaws? If you
> > think the NFB is incapable of forcing choices on people, you are very
> > sadly mistaken.
> >
> >
> >
> > On 8/16/22 09:36, K0LNY_Glenn wrote:
> >> This sort of thing would never happen in Nebraska, or any state where the
> >> agency staff is of the NFB philosophy.
> >> Say what you want about the NFB, no organization is without its problems,
> >> but it is the core philosophy that formed the NFB that knows that society
> >> has low expectations of the Blind, and this is why the NFB believes in
> >> skills and high expectations.
> >> And with that, comes giving respect to the Blind, like the respect of
> >> choice.
> >> Yeah I know about the information of recent about NFB abuse, but this is
> >> organizational issues, unrelated to the philosophy.  In fact, the fact
> >> that
> >> it has come up demonstrates that the NFB is no different than any other
> >> organization in interpersonal staff issues.
> >> And choice does not mean training center choices.
> >> Choice isn't always an option, just like if you took a vocational course
> >> in
> >> college, there are things you have to take, so to me, the lack of choice
> >> in
> >> this regard is different than computer software, where all the choices
> >> will
> >> reach the same end result.
> >> In states where the NFB philosophy is embraced, if a client said I want to
> >> use a Mac, or I want Window Eyes, then that is what they would get, no
> >> questions asked.
> >> They would not have to fight to get it.
> >> I simply cannot imagine a counselor saying that someone has to use the
> >> software that the counselor wants them to have.
> >> When I hear that stuff, I almost cannot believe it, but I know Butch well
> >> enough to know he wouldn't make that up.
> >>
> >> Glenn
> >> ----- Original Message -----
> >> From: "Butch Bussen" <butchb at shellworld.net>
> >> To: "Karen Lewellen" <klewellen at shellworld.net>
> >> Cc: "K0LNY_Glenn" <glenn at ervin.email>; <speakup at linux-speakup.org>; "Milan
> >> Zamazal" <pdm at zamazal.org>; <Blinux-list at redhat.com>
> >> Sent: Tuesday, August 16, 2022 8:18 AM
> >> Subject: Re: "Accessibility in Fedora Workstation" (fwd)
> >>
> >>
> >> You are right.  In Nevada, freedom pushed jaws to the rehab people and
> >> took them out for steak diners and so forth.  I fought like hell to get
> >> them to buy window-eyes.
> >> 73
> >> Butch
> >> WA0VJR
> >> Node 3148
> >> Wallace, ks.
> >>
> >>
> >> On Sun, 14 Aug 2022, Karen Lewellen wrote:
> >>
> >>> And where do these employers learn about jaws?
> >>> In fact, provide if you do not mind an example of how  this works
> >>> exactly.
> >>> after all, unless I am incorrect, these employers are not personal Jaws
> >>> users, meaning someone they trust continues to sell them on an expensive
> >>> program instead of a largely free one.
> >>>
> >>>
> >>>
> >>> On Sat, 13 Aug 2022, K0LNY_Glenn wrote:
> >>>
> >>>>   Karen,
> >>>>   Most employers don't want NVDA, and will only allow Jaws.
> >>>>   In Nebraska, if an employer said put on whatever works, the counselors
> >>>>   will
> >>>>   use NVDA, because of the cost of Jaws.
> >>>>   If some of the clients in a call center already use Jaws, but don't
> >>>> know
> >>>>   NVDA, the counselor will use Jaws, because the other clients will need
> >>>> to
> >>>>   learn one of the two.
> >>>>   So it's all choice, but in the workplace, it depends on what the
> >>>> employer
> >>>>   will allow.
> >>>>   Also, sometimes scripts need to be made, and there are more Jaws
> >>>> scripters
> >>>>   available than there are NVDA add-on writers.
> >>>>   So this perception that Jaws is forced by rehab, from my 31 years in
> >>>> the
> >>>>   business I can say is rubbish.
> >>>>   Now, if a counselor did not know how to use NVDA, and either may be
> >>>>   chosen,
> >>>>   the rehab counselor is able to select the one that the counselor feels
> >>>> is
> >>>>   best for the student and for the counselor's teaching.
> >>>>   When it comes to part B moneys, which is used for non-vocational
> >>>>   purchases,
> >>>>   where a lot of Jaws purchases come from, it is in the agency's best
> >>>>   interest
> >>>>   to spend as little as possible, because that doesn't come back like VR
> >>>>   expenditures do.
> >>>>   Glenn
> >>>>
> >>>>   ----- Original Message -----
> >>>>   From: "Karen Lewellen" <klewellen at shellworld.net>
> >>>>   To: "K0LNY_Glenn" <glenn at ervin.email>
> >>>>   Cc: <speakup at linux-speakup.org>; "Milan Zamazal" <pdm at zamazal.org>;
> >>>>   <Blinux-list at redhat.com>
> >>>>   Sent: Saturday, August 13, 2022 6:15 PM
> >>>>   Subject: Re: "Accessibility in Fedora Workstation" (fwd)
> >>>>
> >>>>
> >>>>   The challenge with that example is that, as one often gets reminded,
> >>>> the
> >>>>   rehab systems track record for facilitating  employment for their
> >>>> clients
> >>>>   is quite poor.
> >>>>   With a high percentage of unemployment among our clients.  Making,
> >>>>   speaking personally, your buying Jaws for personal use not really
> >>>>   reflecting how the system would respond to an alternative request.
> >>>>   Now if someone from organized rehab said, okay freedom scientific, we
> >>>> are
> >>>>   creating an employment program where our clients will train in Linux,
> >>>>   needing a solid screen reader solution for the system.  We will give
> >>>> you
> >>>>   an
> >>>>   exclusive development contract for s millions to create the tool.
> >>>>   Fs would likely say where do we sign?
> >>>>
> >>>>
> >>>>
> >>>>   On Sat, 13 Aug 2022, K0LNY_Glenn wrote:
> >>>>
> >>>>>   True enough, but largely, rehab people typically use Windows at work,
> >>>>>   and
> >>>>>   probably at home, but they need to cater to the needs of the client.
> >>>>>   If a client used Linux, I doubt that any rehab counselor would
> >>>>> advocate
> >>>>>   that
> >>>>>   the client switch to Windows, unless that was needed for a specific
> >>>>> job.
> >>>>>   In Nebraska, we purchased Jaws much more for personal use than we did
> >>>>>   for
> >>>>>   work related situations.
> >>>>>   So if FS made a JFL, and people were using Linux, rehab would indeed
> >>>>>   purchase a JFL product.
> >>>>>   Glenn
> >>>>>   ----- Original Message -----
> >>>>>   From: "Karen Lewellen" <klewellen at shellworld.net>
> >>>>>   To: "K0LNY_Glenn" <glenn at ervin.email>
> >>>>>   Cc: <speakup at linux-speakup.org>; "Milan Zamazal" <pdm at zamazal.org>;
> >>>>>   <Blinux-list at redhat.com>
> >>>>>   Sent: Saturday, August 13, 2022 3:01 PM
> >>>>>   Subject: Re: "Accessibility in Fedora Workstation" (fwd)
> >>>>>
> >>>>>
> >>>>>   there was an interesting discussion a month or so back on the blinux
> >>>>>   list
> >>>>>   about how long it took completing tasks in the gui as apposed to say
> >>>>>   command line,  the comments were quite informative.
> >>>>>   Still, fs has never marketed largely to the end user. Instead they
> >>>>>   market
> >>>>>   to the American rehab community.
> >>>>>   how much market research has  the rehab community done to support the
> >>>>>   need
> >>>>>   for choices?
> >>>>>   How many rehab counselors support  training in Linux?
> >>>>>   one comment made by the subject of this thread about poor quality
> >>>>> speech
> >>>>>   is a fine one...out of the box Linux has few speech choices.
> >>>>> everyone
> >>>>>   brings their needs to the table there.
> >>>>>
> >>>>>   if you want to get fs to care about Linux, you  need to prove there
> >>>>> is
> >>>>>   money for  them there, from their main source of income.
> >>>>>
> >>>>>
> >>>>>
> >>>>>   On Sat, 13 Aug 2022, K0LNY_Glenn wrote:
> >>>>>
> >>>>>>   Well since Orca seems to work on so many distros, I don't know why
> >>>>>> FS
> >>>>>>   would
> >>>>>>   not be able to do the same.
> >>>>>>   If Jaws users could switch into Linux, it would be a real game
> >>>>>>   changer,
> >>>>>>   and
> >>>>>>   I think with lots more Blind Linux users, we would start seeing
> >>>>>>   accessibility in Linux not being a second thought.
> >>>>>>   Glenn
> >>>>>>   ----- Original Message -----
> >>>>>>   From: "Karen Lewellen" <klewellen at shellworld.net>
> >>>>>>   To: "K0LNY_Glenn" <glenn at ervin.email>
> >>>>>>   Cc: <speakup at linux-speakup.org>; "Milan Zamazal" <pdm at zamazal.org>;
> >>>>>>   <Blinux-list at redhat.com>
> >>>>>>   Sent: Saturday, August 13, 2022 1:47 PM
> >>>>>>   Subject: Re: "Accessibility in Fedora Workstation" (fwd)
> >>>>>>
> >>>>>>
> >>>>>>   Well technically freedom scientific does not exist any longer, being
> >>>>>>   bought
> >>>>>>   by another company.
> >>>>>>   Still, I can respect why they, or nvda have not created their tools
> >>>>>>   for
> >>>>>>   Linux.
> >>>>>>   That is because as I understand it, Linux is  quite like clay. You
> >>>>>> can
> >>>>>>   mold a distribution into almost anything. there are various
> >>>>>>   personifications of the system, all sorts of ways and changes and
> >>>>>>   options
> >>>>>>   for creativity.
> >>>>>>   however adaptive tools are often extensions of physical
> >>>>>>   characteristics,
> >>>>>>   hands, eyes, ears, brains, combinations of these.
> >>>>>>   To build solid assistive tools one must have a solid  foundation as
> >>>>>> it
> >>>>>>   were.  that is part of why there have needed to be so few Apple
> >>>>>>   efforts
> >>>>>>   at
> >>>>>>   inclusion, they  created  with, and then created in-house adaptive
> >>>>>>   tools
> >>>>>>   for various  populations that were built into the system.
> >>>>>>   Although Microsoft did not bother until much later, in theory at
> >>>>>>   least,
> >>>>>>   the
> >>>>>>   consistency of windows is what makes it possible for freedom or the
> >>>>>>   former
> >>>>>>   gw  micro or nvda to create something that can in theory  work.
> >>>>>>   Floor for the furniture is somewhat solid.
> >>>>>>   Just my thoughts,
> >>>>>>
> >>>>>>
> >>>>>>
> >>>>>>   On Sat, 13 Aug 2022, K0LNY_Glenn wrote:
> >>>>>>
> >>>>>>>   I would like to see Freedom Scientific make a Jaws For Linux.
> >>>>>>>   JFL
> >>>>>>>   I'd certainly pay the yearly rental fee for it, and it would bring
> >>>>>>>   many
> >>>>>>>   more
> >>>>>>>   users into Linux.
> >>>>>>>   FS could, with its resources, possibly make it more robust than
> >>>>>>>   Orca.
> >>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>   Glenn
> >>>>>>>   ----- Original Message -----
> >>>>>>>   From: "Milan Zamazal" <pdm at zamazal.org>
> >>>>>>>   To: <speakup at linux-speakup.org>
> >>>>>>>   Cc: <Blinux-list at redhat.com>
> >>>>>>>   Sent: Saturday, August 13, 2022 12:08 PM
> >>>>>>>   Subject: Re: "Accessibility in Fedora Workstation" (fwd)
> >>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>>>>   "KL" == Karen Lewellen <klewellen at shellworld.net>
> >>>>>>>>>>>> writes:
> >>>>>>> KL>  What bothers me most are his lack of actual qualifications,
> >>>>>>> and
> >>>>>>> KL>  absolute dismissal of what he has not experienced..as if he
> >>>>>>> KL>  defines Linux usage for everyone.  That attitude is dangerous,
> >>>>>>> KL>  because he is educating those outside of the accessibility
> >>>>>>> KL>  experiences, who will believe his ignorance is factual.  he
> >>>>>>> has
> >>>>>>> KL>  to be expert, it is his job.
> >>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>   Hi Karen,
> >>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>   I know Lukas personally and I admire his skills and
> >>>>>>> qualifications.
> >>>>>>>   I
> >>>>>>>   also know first hand that he is open to constructive feedback and
> >>>>>>> I
> >>>>>>>   believe he??Td be happy to be corrected about possible technical
> >>>>>>>   inaccuracies in the interview.  It may be also a good opportunity
> >>>>>>> to
> >>>>>>>   find out what??Ts possibly missing in making anybody better
> >>>>>>>   informed.
> >>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>   As for ??oabsolute dismissal of what he has not experienced???,
> >>>>>>> what
> >>>>>>>   reasonable free software alternatives to a less or more standard
> >>>>>>>   desktop
> >>>>>>>   with Orca and a software synthesizer can you see for a common
> >>>>>>> blind
> >>>>>>>   user
> >>>>>>>   who needs to use a fully working web browser, to read and process
> >>>>>>>   text
> >>>>>>>   documents, to be compatible with other computer users, etc.?
> >>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>   And let??Ts be realistic.  We celebrate every single developer
> >>>>>>> hired
> >>>>>>>   to
> >>>>>>>   improve accessibility.  This tells something about the state of
> >>>>>>> the
> >>>>>>>   matters.  We cannot expect that a single person will fix all the
> >>>>>>>   kinds
> >>>>>>>   of accessibility problems in all the environments.  Lukas works at
> >>>>>>>   his
> >>>>>>>   job focusing on certain areas currently seen there as urgent ones
> >>>>>>>   and I
> >>>>>>>   appreciate this opportunity.  Anybody else seeing a need to work
> >>>>>>> on
> >>>>>>>   other areas is welcome to contribute to whatever sees fit, as I
> >>>>>>> do.
> >>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>   Regards,
> >>>>>>>   Milan
> >>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>
> >>>>>>
> >>>>>
> >>>>
> >>
> >
> >
>

"Accessibility in Fedora Workstation" (fwd)

[blinux-list]

My personal favorite is the rejection of money that could be identified 
by touch.  never mind that for honestly thousands of years the practice has 
been common so those with limited education could still engage in commerce.



On Wed, 17 Aug 2022, Butch Bussen wrote:

> Yes, I remember that.  And what about their oposition to descriptive video, 
> even filed a law sute to get the law thrown out, which it was at that time.
> 73
> Butch
> WA0VJR
> Node 3148
> Wallace, ks.
>
>
> On Tue, 16 Aug 2022, John G. Heim wrote:
>
>>  Holy cow! Are you aware that the NFB once asked Microsoft to *NOT* improve
>>  Narrator to the point where it would compete with Jaws? If you think the
>>  NFB is incapable of forcing choices on people, you are very sadly
>>  mistaken.
>> 
>> 
>>
>>  On 8/16/22 09:36, K0LNY_Glenn wrote:
>> >   This sort of thing would never happen in Nebraska, or any state where 
>> >   the
>> >   agency staff is of the NFB philosophy.
>> >   Say what you want about the NFB, no organization is without its 
>> >   problems,
>> >   but it is the core philosophy that formed the NFB that knows that 
>> >   society
>> >   has low expectations of the Blind, and this is why the NFB believes in
>> >   skills and high expectations.
>> >   And with that, comes giving respect to the Blind, like the respect of
>> >   choice.
>> >   Yeah I know about the information of recent about NFB abuse, but this 
>> >   is
>> >   organizational issues, unrelated to the philosophy.  In fact, the fact
>> >   that
>> >   it has come up demonstrates that the NFB is no different than any other
>> >   organization in interpersonal staff issues.
>> >   And choice does not mean training center choices.
>> >   Choice isn't always an option, just like if you took a vocational 
>> >   course
>> >   in
>> >   college, there are things you have to take, so to me, the lack of 
>> >   choice
>> >   in
>> >   this regard is different than computer software, where all the choices
>> >   will
>> >   reach the same end result.
>> >   In states where the NFB philosophy is embraced, if a client said I want 
>> >   to
>> >   use a Mac, or I want Window Eyes, then that is what they would get, no
>> >   questions asked.
>> >   They would not have to fight to get it.
>> >   I simply cannot imagine a counselor saying that someone has to use the
>> >   software that the counselor wants them to have.
>> >   When I hear that stuff, I almost cannot believe it, but I know Butch 
>> >   well
>> >   enough to know he wouldn't make that up.
>> > 
>> >   Glenn
>> >   ----- Original Message -----
>> >   From: "Butch Bussen" <butchb at shellworld.net>
>> >   To: "Karen Lewellen" <klewellen at shellworld.net>
>> >   Cc: "K0LNY_Glenn" <glenn at ervin.email>; <speakup at linux-speakup.org>; 
>> >   "Milan
>> >   Zamazal" <pdm at zamazal.org>; <Blinux-list at redhat.com>
>> >   Sent: Tuesday, August 16, 2022 8:18 AM
>> >   Subject: Re: "Accessibility in Fedora Workstation" (fwd)
>> > 
>> > 
>> >   You are right.  In Nevada, freedom pushed jaws to the rehab people and
>> >   took them out for steak diners and so forth.  I fought like hell to get
>> >   them to buy window-eyes.
>> >   73
>> >   Butch
>> >   WA0VJR
>> >   Node 3148
>> >   Wallace, ks.
>> > 
>> > 
>> >   On Sun, 14 Aug 2022, Karen Lewellen wrote:
>> > 
>> > >   And where do these employers learn about jaws?
>> > >   In fact, provide if you do not mind an example of how  this works 
>> > >   exactly.
>> > >   after all, unless I am incorrect, these employers are not personal 
>> > >   Jaws
>> > >   users, meaning someone they trust continues to sell them on an 
>> > >   expensive
>> > >   program instead of a largely free one.
>> > > 
>> > > 
>> > > 
>> > >   On Sat, 13 Aug 2022, K0LNY_Glenn wrote:
>> > > 
>> > > >     Karen,
>> > > >     Most employers don't want NVDA, and will only allow Jaws.
>> > > >     In Nebraska, if an employer said put on whatever works, the 
>> > > >     counselors
>> > > >     will
>> > > >     use NVDA, because of the cost of Jaws.
>> > > >     If some of the clients in a call center already use Jaws, but 
>> > > >     don't know
>> > > >     NVDA, the counselor will use Jaws, because the other clients will 
>> > > >     need
>> > > >   to
>> > > >     learn one of the two.
>> > > >     So it's all choice, but in the workplace, it depends on what the
>> > > >   employer
>> > > >     will allow.
>> > > >     Also, sometimes scripts need to be made, and there are more Jaws
>> > > >   scripters
>> > > >     available than there are NVDA add-on writers.
>> > > >     So this perception that Jaws is forced by rehab, from my 31 years 
>> > > >     in the
>> > > >     business I can say is rubbish.
>> > > >     Now, if a counselor did not know how to use NVDA, and either may 
>> > > >     be
>> > > >     chosen,
>> > > >     the rehab counselor is able to select the one that the counselor 
>> > > >     feels
>> > > >   is
>> > > >     best for the student and for the counselor's teaching.
>> > > >     When it comes to part B moneys, which is used for non-vocational
>> > > >     purchases,
>> > > >     where a lot of Jaws purchases come from, it is in the agency's 
>> > > >     best
>> > > >     interest
>> > > >     to spend as little as possible, because that doesn't come back 
>> > > >     like VR
>> > > >     expenditures do.
>> > > >     Glenn
>> > > > 
>> > > >     ----- Original Message -----
>> > > >     From: "Karen Lewellen" <klewellen at shellworld.net>
>> > > >     To: "K0LNY_Glenn" <glenn at ervin.email>
>> > > >     Cc: <speakup at linux-speakup.org>; "Milan Zamazal" 
>> > > >     <pdm at zamazal.org>;
>> > > >     <Blinux-list at redhat.com>
>> > > >     Sent: Saturday, August 13, 2022 6:15 PM
>> > > >     Subject: Re: "Accessibility in Fedora Workstation" (fwd)
>> > > > 
>> > > > 
>> > > >     The challenge with that example is that, as one often gets 
>> > > >   reminded,
>> > > >   the
>> > > >     rehab systems track record for facilitating  employment for their
>> > > >   clients
>> > > >     is quite poor.
>> > > >     With a high percentage of unemployment among our clients. 
>> > > >     Making,
>> > > >     speaking personally, your buying Jaws for personal use not really
>> > > >     reflecting how the system would respond to an alternative 
>> > > >     request.
>> > > >     Now if someone from organized rehab said, okay freedom 
>> > > >     scientific, we
>> > > >   are
>> > > >     creating an employment program where our clients will train in 
>> > > >     Linux,
>> > > >     needing a solid screen reader solution for the system.  We will 
>> > > >     give you
>> > > >     an
>> > > >     exclusive development contract for s millions to create the tool.
>> > > >     Fs would likely say where do we sign?
>> > > > 
>> > > > 
>> > > > 
>> > > >     On Sat, 13 Aug 2022, K0LNY_Glenn wrote:
>> > > > 
>> > > > >     True enough, but largely, rehab people typically use Windows at 
>> > > > >     work,
>> > > > >     and
>> > > > >     probably at home, but they need to cater to the needs of the 
>> > > > >     client.
>> > > > >     If a client used Linux, I doubt that any rehab counselor would
>> > > > >   advocate
>> > > > >     that
>> > > > >     the client switch to Windows, unless that was needed for a 
>> > > > >     specific
>> > > > >   job.
>> > > > >     In Nebraska, we purchased Jaws much more for personal use than 
>> > > > >     we did
>> > > > >     for
>> > > > >     work related situations.
>> > > > >     So if FS made a JFL, and people were using Linux, rehab would 
>> > > > >     indeed
>> > > > >     purchase a JFL product.
>> > > > >     Glenn
>> > > > >     ----- Original Message -----
>> > > > >     From: "Karen Lewellen" <klewellen at shellworld.net>
>> > > > >     To: "K0LNY_Glenn" <glenn at ervin.email>
>> > > > >     Cc: <speakup at linux-speakup.org>; "Milan Zamazal" 
>> > > > >     <pdm at zamazal.org>;
>> > > > >     <Blinux-list at redhat.com>
>> > > > >     Sent: Saturday, August 13, 2022 3:01 PM
>> > > > >     Subject: Re: "Accessibility in Fedora Workstation" (fwd)
>> > > > > 
>> > > > > 
>> > > > >     there was an interesting discussion a month or so back on the 
>> > > > >     blinux
>> > > > >     list
>> > > > >     about how long it took completing tasks in the gui as apposed 
>> > > > >     to say
>> > > > >     command line,  the comments were quite informative.
>> > > > >     Still, fs has never marketed largely to the end user. Instead 
>> > > > >     they
>> > > > >     market
>> > > > >     to the American rehab community.
>> > > > >     how much market research has  the rehab community done to 
>> > > > >     support the
>> > > > >     need
>> > > > >     for choices?
>> > > > >     How many rehab counselors support  training in Linux?
>> > > > >     one comment made by the subject of this thread about poor 
>> > > > >     quality
>> > > > >   speech
>> > > > >     is a fine one...out of the box Linux has few speech choices. 
>> > > > >     everyone
>> > > > >     brings their needs to the table there.
>> > > > > 
>> > > > >     if you want to get fs to care about Linux, you  need to prove 
>> > > > >     there is
>> > > > >     money for  them there, from their main source of income.
>> > > > > 
>> > > > > 
>> > > > > 
>> > > > >     On Sat, 13 Aug 2022, K0LNY_Glenn wrote:
>> > > > > 
>> > > > > >     Well since Orca seems to work on so many distros, I don't 
>> > > > > >   know why
>> > > > > >   FS
>> > > > > >     would
>> > > > > >     not be able to do the same.
>> > > > > >     If Jaws users could switch into Linux, it would be a real 
>> > > > > >     game
>> > > > > >     changer,
>> > > > > >     and
>> > > > > >     I think with lots more Blind Linux users, we would start 
>> > > > > >     seeing
>> > > > > >     accessibility in Linux not being a second thought.
>> > > > > >     Glenn
>> > > > > >     ----- Original Message -----
>> > > > > >     From: "Karen Lewellen" <klewellen at shellworld.net>
>> > > > > >     To: "K0LNY_Glenn" <glenn at ervin.email>
>> > > > > >     Cc: <speakup at linux-speakup.org>; "Milan Zamazal" 
>> > > > > >     <pdm at zamazal.org>;
>> > > > > >     <Blinux-list at redhat.com>
>> > > > > >     Sent: Saturday, August 13, 2022 1:47 PM
>> > > > > >     Subject: Re: "Accessibility in Fedora Workstation" (fwd)
>> > > > > > 
>> > > > > > 
>> > > > > >     Well technically freedom scientific does not exist any 
>> > > > > >     longer, being
>> > > > > >     bought
>> > > > > >     by another company.
>> > > > > >     Still, I can respect why they, or nvda have not created their 
>> > > > > >     tools
>> > > > > >     for
>> > > > > >     Linux.
>> > > > > >     That is because as I understand it, Linux is  quite like 
>> > > > > >     clay. You
>> > > > > >   can
>> > > > > >     mold a distribution into almost anything. there are various
>> > > > > >     personifications of the system, all sorts of ways and changes 
>> > > > > >     and
>> > > > > >     options
>> > > > > >     for creativity.
>> > > > > >     however adaptive tools are often extensions of physical
>> > > > > >     characteristics,
>> > > > > >     hands, eyes, ears, brains, combinations of these.
>> > > > > >     To build solid assistive tools one must have a solid 
>> > > > > >     foundation as
>> > > > > >   it
>> > > > > >     were.  that is part of why there have needed to be so few 
>> > > > > >     Apple
>> > > > > >     efforts
>> > > > > >     at
>> > > > > >     inclusion, they  created  with, and then created in-house 
>> > > > > >     adaptive
>> > > > > >     tools
>> > > > > >     for various  populations that were built into the system.
>> > > > > >     Although Microsoft did not bother until much later, in theory 
>> > > > > >     at
>> > > > > >     least,
>> > > > > >     the
>> > > > > >     consistency of windows is what makes it possible for freedom 
>> > > > > >     or the
>> > > > > >     former
>> > > > > >     gw  micro or nvda to create something that can in theory 
>> > > > > >     work.
>> > > > > >     Floor for the furniture is somewhat solid.
>> > > > > >     Just my thoughts,
>> > > > > > 
>> > > > > > 
>> > > > > > 
>> > > > > >     On Sat, 13 Aug 2022, K0LNY_Glenn wrote:
>> > > > > > 
>> > > > > > >     I would like to see Freedom Scientific make a Jaws For 
>> > > > > > >     Linux.
>> > > > > > >     JFL
>> > > > > > >     I'd certainly pay the yearly rental fee for it, and it 
>> > > > > > >     would bring
>> > > > > > >     many
>> > > > > > >     more
>> > > > > > >     users into Linux.
>> > > > > > >     FS could, with its resources, possibly make it more robust 
>> > > > > > >     than
>> > > > > > >     Orca.
>> > > > > > > 
>> > > > > > >     Glenn
>> > > > > > >     ----- Original Message -----
>> > > > > > >     From: "Milan Zamazal" <pdm at zamazal.org>
>> > > > > > >     To: <speakup at linux-speakup.org>
>> > > > > > >     Cc: <Blinux-list at redhat.com>
>> > > > > > >     Sent: Saturday, August 13, 2022 12:08 PM
>> > > > > > >     Subject: Re: "Accessibility in Fedora Workstation" (fwd)
>> > > > > > > 
>> > > > > > > 
>> > > > > > > > > > > >     "KL" == Karen Lewellen <klewellen at shellworld.net>
>> > > > > > > > > > > >   writes:
>> > > > > > >   KL>  What bothers me most are his lack of actual 
>> > > > > > >   qualifications,
>> > > > > > >   and
>> > > > > > > KL>    absolute dismissal of what he has not experienced..as if 
>> > > > > > > KL>    he
>> > > > > > > KL>    defines Linux usage for everyone.  That attitude is 
>> > > > > > > KL>    dangerous,
>> > > > > > > KL>    because he is educating those outside of the 
>> > > > > > > KL>    accessibility
>> > > > > > > KL>    experiences, who will believe his ignorance is factual. 
>> > > > > > > KL>    he
>> > > > > > >   has
>> > > > > > >   KL>  to be expert, it is his job.
>> > > > > > > 
>> > > > > > >     Hi Karen,
>> > > > > > > 
>> > > > > > >     I know Lukas personally and I admire his skills and
>> > > > > > >   qualifications.
>> > > > > > >     I
>> > > > > > >     also know first hand that he is open to constructive 
>> > > > > > >     feedback and
>> > > > > > >   I
>> > > > > > >     believe he???Td be happy to be corrected about possible 
>> > > > > > >     technical
>> > > > > > >     inaccuracies in the interview.  It may be also a good 
>> > > > > > >     opportunity
>> > > > > > >   to
>> > > > > > >     find out what???Ts possibly missing in making anybody 
>> > > > > > >     better
>> > > > > > >     informed.
>> > > > > > > 
>> > > > > > >     As for ???oabsolute dismissal of what he has not 
>> > > > > > >   experienced?????,
>> > > > > > >   what
>> > > > > > >     reasonable free software alternatives to a less or more 
>> > > > > > >     standard
>> > > > > > >     desktop
>> > > > > > >     with Orca and a software synthesizer can you see for a 
>> > > > > > >     common
>> > > > > > >   blind
>> > > > > > >     user
>> > > > > > >     who needs to use a fully working web browser, to read and 
>> > > > > > >     process
>> > > > > > >     text
>> > > > > > >     documents, to be compatible with other computer users, 
>> > > > > > >     etc.?
>> > > > > > > 
>> > > > > > >     And let???Ts be realistic.  We celebrate every single 
>> > > > > > >   developer
>> > > > > > >   hired
>> > > > > > >     to
>> > > > > > >     improve accessibility.  This tells something about the 
>> > > > > > >     state of
>> > > > > > >   the
>> > > > > > >     matters.  We cannot expect that a single person will fix 
>> > > > > > >     all the
>> > > > > > >     kinds
>> > > > > > >     of accessibility problems in all the environments.  Lukas 
>> > > > > > >     works at
>> > > > > > >     his
>> > > > > > >     job focusing on certain areas currently seen there as 
>> > > > > > >     urgent ones
>> > > > > > >     and I
>> > > > > > >     appreciate this opportunity.  Anybody else seeing a need to 
>> > > > > > >     work
>> > > > > > >   on
>> > > > > > >     other areas is welcome to contribute to whatever sees fit, 
>> > > > > > >   as I
>> > > > > > >   do.
>> > > > > > > 
>> > > > > > >     Regards,
>> > > > > > >     Milan
>> > > > > > > 
>> > > > > > > 
>> > > > > > > 
>> > > > > > > 
>> > > > > > 
>> > > > > 
>> > > > 
>> > 
>> 
>> 
>> 
>

"Accessibility in Fedora Workstation" (fwd)

[blinux-list]

speaking personally?
No government employee should be a member of the NfB.   ethical conflict 
of interest personified.

Karen


On Wed, 17 Aug 2022, K0LNY_Glenn wrote:

> Yeah, I had been to a state NFBN convention that year and did the PAC thing.
> Then when the NFB did that, I called up the state treasurer for the NFBN and
> cancelled my PAC plan.
> I told them that they don't care if I can read my money, then they don't
> need any from me.
> Glenn
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: "Karen Lewellen" <klewellen at shellworld.net>
> To: "Butch Bussen" <butchb at shellworld.net>
> Cc: "John G. Heim" <jheim at wisc.edu>; "K0LNY_Glenn" <glenn at ervin.email>;
> <speakup at linux-speakup.org>; "Milan Zamazal" <pdm at zamazal.org>;
> <Blinux-list at redhat.com>
> Sent: Wednesday, August 17, 2022 11:18 AM
> Subject: Re: "Accessibility in Fedora Workstation" (fwd)
>
>
> My personal favorite is the rejection of money that could be identified
> by touch.  never mind that for honestly thousands of years the practice has
> been common so those with limited education could still engage in commerce.
>
>
>
> On Wed, 17 Aug 2022, Butch Bussen wrote:
>
>> Yes, I remember that.  And what about their oposition to descriptive
>> video,
>> even filed a law sute to get the law thrown out, which it was at that
>> time.
>> 73
>> Butch
>> WA0VJR
>> Node 3148
>> Wallace, ks.
>>
>>
>> On Tue, 16 Aug 2022, John G. Heim wrote:
>>
>>>  Holy cow! Are you aware that the NFB once asked Microsoft to *NOT*
>>> improve
>>>  Narrator to the point where it would compete with Jaws? If you think the
>>>  NFB is incapable of forcing choices on people, you are very sadly
>>>  mistaken.
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>  On 8/16/22 09:36, K0LNY_Glenn wrote:
>>>>   This sort of thing would never happen in Nebraska, or any state where
>>>>   the
>>>>   agency staff is of the NFB philosophy.
>>>>   Say what you want about the NFB, no organization is without its
>>>>   problems,
>>>>   but it is the core philosophy that formed the NFB that knows that
>>>>   society
>>>>   has low expectations of the Blind, and this is why the NFB believes
>>>> in
>>>>   skills and high expectations.
>>>>   And with that, comes giving respect to the Blind, like the respect of
>>>>   choice.
>>>>   Yeah I know about the information of recent about NFB abuse, but this
>>>>   is
>>>>   organizational issues, unrelated to the philosophy.  In fact, the
>>>> fact
>>>>   that
>>>>   it has come up demonstrates that the NFB is no different than any
>>>> other
>>>>   organization in interpersonal staff issues.
>>>>   And choice does not mean training center choices.
>>>>   Choice isn't always an option, just like if you took a vocational
>>>>   course
>>>>   in
>>>>   college, there are things you have to take, so to me, the lack of
>>>>   choice
>>>>   in
>>>>   this regard is different than computer software, where all the
>>>> choices
>>>>   will
>>>>   reach the same end result.
>>>>   In states where the NFB philosophy is embraced, if a client said I
>>>> want
>>>>   to
>>>>   use a Mac, or I want Window Eyes, then that is what they would get,
>>>> no
>>>>   questions asked.
>>>>   They would not have to fight to get it.
>>>>   I simply cannot imagine a counselor saying that someone has to use
>>>> the
>>>>   software that the counselor wants them to have.
>>>>   When I hear that stuff, I almost cannot believe it, but I know Butch
>>>>   well
>>>>   enough to know he wouldn't make that up.
>>>>
>>>>   Glenn
>>>>   ----- Original Message -----
>>>>   From: "Butch Bussen" <butchb at shellworld.net>
>>>>   To: "Karen Lewellen" <klewellen at shellworld.net>
>>>>   Cc: "K0LNY_Glenn" <glenn at ervin.email>; <speakup at linux-speakup.org>;
>>>>   "Milan
>>>>   Zamazal" <pdm at zamazal.org>; <Blinux-list at redhat.com>
>>>>   Sent: Tuesday, August 16, 2022 8:18 AM
>>>>   Subject: Re: "Accessibility in Fedora Workstation" (fwd)
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>   You are right.  In Nevada, freedom pushed jaws to the rehab people
>>>> and
>>>>   took them out for steak diners and so forth.  I fought like hell to
>>>> get
>>>>   them to buy window-eyes.
>>>>   73
>>>>   Butch
>>>>   WA0VJR
>>>>   Node 3148
>>>>   Wallace, ks.
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>   On Sun, 14 Aug 2022, Karen Lewellen wrote:
>>>>
>>>>>   And where do these employers learn about jaws?
>>>>>   In fact, provide if you do not mind an example of how  this works
>>>>>   exactly.
>>>>>   after all, unless I am incorrect, these employers are not personal
>>>>>   Jaws
>>>>>   users, meaning someone they trust continues to sell them on an
>>>>>   expensive
>>>>>   program instead of a largely free one.
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>   On Sat, 13 Aug 2022, K0LNY_Glenn wrote:
>>>>>
>>>>>>     Karen,
>>>>>>     Most employers don't want NVDA, and will only allow Jaws.
>>>>>>     In Nebraska, if an employer said put on whatever works, the
>>>>>>     counselors
>>>>>>     will
>>>>>>     use NVDA, because of the cost of Jaws.
>>>>>>     If some of the clients in a call center already use Jaws, but
>>>>>>     don't know
>>>>>>     NVDA, the counselor will use Jaws, because the other clients
>>>>>> will
>>>>>>     need
>>>>>>   to
>>>>>>     learn one of the two.
>>>>>>     So it's all choice, but in the workplace, it depends on what
>>>>>> the
>>>>>>   employer
>>>>>>     will allow.
>>>>>>     Also, sometimes scripts need to be made, and there are more
>>>>>> Jaws
>>>>>>   scripters
>>>>>>     available than there are NVDA add-on writers.
>>>>>>     So this perception that Jaws is forced by rehab, from my 31
>>>>>> years
>>>>>>     in the
>>>>>>     business I can say is rubbish.
>>>>>>     Now, if a counselor did not know how to use NVDA, and either
>>>>>> may
>>>>>>     be
>>>>>>     chosen,
>>>>>>     the rehab counselor is able to select the one that the
>>>>>> counselor
>>>>>>     feels
>>>>>>   is
>>>>>>     best for the student and for the counselor's teaching.
>>>>>>     When it comes to part B moneys, which is used for
>>>>>> non-vocational
>>>>>>     purchases,
>>>>>>     where a lot of Jaws purchases come from, it is in the agency's
>>>>>>     best
>>>>>>     interest
>>>>>>     to spend as little as possible, because that doesn't come back
>>>>>>     like VR
>>>>>>     expenditures do.
>>>>>>     Glenn
>>>>>>
>>>>>>     ----- Original Message -----
>>>>>>     From: "Karen Lewellen" <klewellen at shellworld.net>
>>>>>>     To: "K0LNY_Glenn" <glenn at ervin.email>
>>>>>>     Cc: <speakup at linux-speakup.org>; "Milan Zamazal"
>>>>>>     <pdm at zamazal.org>;
>>>>>>     <Blinux-list at redhat.com>
>>>>>>     Sent: Saturday, August 13, 2022 6:15 PM
>>>>>>     Subject: Re: "Accessibility in Fedora Workstation" (fwd)
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>     The challenge with that example is that, as one often gets
>>>>>>   reminded,
>>>>>>   the
>>>>>>     rehab systems track record for facilitating  employment for
>>>>>> their
>>>>>>   clients
>>>>>>     is quite poor.
>>>>>>     With a high percentage of unemployment among our clients.
>>>>>>     Making,
>>>>>>     speaking personally, your buying Jaws for personal use not
>>>>>> really
>>>>>>     reflecting how the system would respond to an alternative
>>>>>>     request.
>>>>>>     Now if someone from organized rehab said, okay freedom
>>>>>>     scientific, we
>>>>>>   are
>>>>>>     creating an employment program where our clients will train in
>>>>>>     Linux,
>>>>>>     needing a solid screen reader solution for the system.  We will
>>>>>>     give you
>>>>>>     an
>>>>>>     exclusive development contract for s millions to create the
>>>>>> tool.
>>>>>>     Fs would likely say where do we sign?
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>     On Sat, 13 Aug 2022, K0LNY_Glenn wrote:
>>>>>>
>>>>>>>     True enough, but largely, rehab people typically use Windows
>>>>>>> at
>>>>>>>     work,
>>>>>>>     and
>>>>>>>     probably at home, but they need to cater to the needs of the
>>>>>>>     client.
>>>>>>>     If a client used Linux, I doubt that any rehab counselor
>>>>>>> would
>>>>>>>   advocate
>>>>>>>     that
>>>>>>>     the client switch to Windows, unless that was needed for a
>>>>>>>     specific
>>>>>>>   job.
>>>>>>>     In Nebraska, we purchased Jaws much more for personal use
>>>>>>> than
>>>>>>>     we did
>>>>>>>     for
>>>>>>>     work related situations.
>>>>>>>     So if FS made a JFL, and people were using Linux, rehab would
>>>>>>>     indeed
>>>>>>>     purchase a JFL product.
>>>>>>>     Glenn
>>>>>>>     ----- Original Message -----
>>>>>>>     From: "Karen Lewellen" <klewellen at shellworld.net>
>>>>>>>     To: "K0LNY_Glenn" <glenn at ervin.email>
>>>>>>>     Cc: <speakup at linux-speakup.org>; "Milan Zamazal"
>>>>>>>     <pdm at zamazal.org>;
>>>>>>>     <Blinux-list at redhat.com>
>>>>>>>     Sent: Saturday, August 13, 2022 3:01 PM
>>>>>>>     Subject: Re: "Accessibility in Fedora Workstation" (fwd)
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>     there was an interesting discussion a month or so back on the
>>>>>>>     blinux
>>>>>>>     list
>>>>>>>     about how long it took completing tasks in the gui as apposed
>>>>>>>     to say
>>>>>>>     command line,  the comments were quite informative.
>>>>>>>     Still, fs has never marketed largely to the end user. Instead
>>>>>>>     they
>>>>>>>     market
>>>>>>>     to the American rehab community.
>>>>>>>     how much market research has  the rehab community done to
>>>>>>>     support the
>>>>>>>     need
>>>>>>>     for choices?
>>>>>>>     How many rehab counselors support  training in Linux?
>>>>>>>     one comment made by the subject of this thread about poor
>>>>>>>     quality
>>>>>>>   speech
>>>>>>>     is a fine one...out of the box Linux has few speech choices.
>>>>>>>     everyone
>>>>>>>     brings their needs to the table there.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>     if you want to get fs to care about Linux, you  need to prove
>>>>>>>     there is
>>>>>>>     money for  them there, from their main source of income.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>     On Sat, 13 Aug 2022, K0LNY_Glenn wrote:
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>     Well since Orca seems to work on so many distros, I don't
>>>>>>>>   know why
>>>>>>>>   FS
>>>>>>>>     would
>>>>>>>>     not be able to do the same.
>>>>>>>>     If Jaws users could switch into Linux, it would be a real
>>>>>>>>     game
>>>>>>>>     changer,
>>>>>>>>     and
>>>>>>>>     I think with lots more Blind Linux users, we would start
>>>>>>>>     seeing
>>>>>>>>     accessibility in Linux not being a second thought.
>>>>>>>>     Glenn
>>>>>>>>     ----- Original Message -----
>>>>>>>>     From: "Karen Lewellen" <klewellen at shellworld.net>
>>>>>>>>     To: "K0LNY_Glenn" <glenn at ervin.email>
>>>>>>>>     Cc: <speakup at linux-speakup.org>; "Milan Zamazal"
>>>>>>>>     <pdm at zamazal.org>;
>>>>>>>>     <Blinux-list at redhat.com>
>>>>>>>>     Sent: Saturday, August 13, 2022 1:47 PM
>>>>>>>>     Subject: Re: "Accessibility in Fedora Workstation" (fwd)
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>     Well technically freedom scientific does not exist any
>>>>>>>>     longer, being
>>>>>>>>     bought
>>>>>>>>     by another company.
>>>>>>>>     Still, I can respect why they, or nvda have not created
>>>>>>>> their
>>>>>>>>     tools
>>>>>>>>     for
>>>>>>>>     Linux.
>>>>>>>>     That is because as I understand it, Linux is  quite like
>>>>>>>>     clay. You
>>>>>>>>   can
>>>>>>>>     mold a distribution into almost anything. there are various
>>>>>>>>     personifications of the system, all sorts of ways and
>>>>>>>> changes
>>>>>>>>     and
>>>>>>>>     options
>>>>>>>>     for creativity.
>>>>>>>>     however adaptive tools are often extensions of physical
>>>>>>>>     characteristics,
>>>>>>>>     hands, eyes, ears, brains, combinations of these.
>>>>>>>>     To build solid assistive tools one must have a solid
>>>>>>>>     foundation as
>>>>>>>>   it
>>>>>>>>     were.  that is part of why there have needed to be so few
>>>>>>>>     Apple
>>>>>>>>     efforts
>>>>>>>>     at
>>>>>>>>     inclusion, they  created  with, and then created in-house
>>>>>>>>     adaptive
>>>>>>>>     tools
>>>>>>>>     for various  populations that were built into the system.
>>>>>>>>     Although Microsoft did not bother until much later, in
>>>>>>>> theory
>>>>>>>>     at
>>>>>>>>     least,
>>>>>>>>     the
>>>>>>>>     consistency of windows is what makes it possible for
>>>>>>>> freedom
>>>>>>>>     or the
>>>>>>>>     former
>>>>>>>>     gw  micro or nvda to create something that can in theory
>>>>>>>>     work.
>>>>>>>>     Floor for the furniture is somewhat solid.
>>>>>>>>     Just my thoughts,
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>     On Sat, 13 Aug 2022, K0LNY_Glenn wrote:
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>     I would like to see Freedom Scientific make a Jaws For
>>>>>>>>>     Linux.
>>>>>>>>>     JFL
>>>>>>>>>     I'd certainly pay the yearly rental fee for it, and it
>>>>>>>>>     would bring
>>>>>>>>>     many
>>>>>>>>>     more
>>>>>>>>>     users into Linux.
>>>>>>>>>     FS could, with its resources, possibly make it more
>>>>>>>>> robust
>>>>>>>>>     than
>>>>>>>>>     Orca.
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>     Glenn
>>>>>>>>>     ----- Original Message -----
>>>>>>>>>     From: "Milan Zamazal" <pdm at zamazal.org>
>>>>>>>>>     To: <speakup at linux-speakup.org>
>>>>>>>>>     Cc: <Blinux-list at redhat.com>
>>>>>>>>>     Sent: Saturday, August 13, 2022 12:08 PM
>>>>>>>>>     Subject: Re: "Accessibility in Fedora Workstation" (fwd)
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>     "KL" == Karen Lewellen
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> <klewellen at shellworld.net>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>   writes:
>>>>>>>>>   KL>  What bothers me most are his lack of actual
>>>>>>>>>   qualifications,
>>>>>>>>>   and
>>>>>>>>> KL>    absolute dismissal of what he has not experienced..as
>>>>>>>>> if
>>>>>>>>> KL>    he
>>>>>>>>> KL>    defines Linux usage for everyone.  That attitude is
>>>>>>>>> KL>    dangerous,
>>>>>>>>> KL>    because he is educating those outside of the
>>>>>>>>> KL>    accessibility
>>>>>>>>> KL>    experiences, who will believe his ignorance is
>>>>>>>>> factual.
>>>>>>>>> KL>    he
>>>>>>>>>   has
>>>>>>>>>   KL>  to be expert, it is his job.
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>     Hi Karen,
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>     I know Lukas personally and I admire his skills and
>>>>>>>>>   qualifications.
>>>>>>>>>     I
>>>>>>>>>     also know first hand that he is open to constructive
>>>>>>>>>     feedback and
>>>>>>>>>   I
>>>>>>>>>     believe he???Td be happy to be corrected about possible
>>>>>>>>>     technical
>>>>>>>>>     inaccuracies in the interview.  It may be also a good
>>>>>>>>>     opportunity
>>>>>>>>>   to
>>>>>>>>>     find out what???Ts possibly missing in making anybody
>>>>>>>>>     better
>>>>>>>>>     informed.
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>     As for ???oabsolute dismissal of what he has not
>>>>>>>>>   experienced?????,
>>>>>>>>>   what
>>>>>>>>>     reasonable free software alternatives to a less or more
>>>>>>>>>     standard
>>>>>>>>>     desktop
>>>>>>>>>     with Orca and a software synthesizer can you see for a
>>>>>>>>>     common
>>>>>>>>>   blind
>>>>>>>>>     user
>>>>>>>>>     who needs to use a fully working web browser, to read and
>>>>>>>>>     process
>>>>>>>>>     text
>>>>>>>>>     documents, to be compatible with other computer users,
>>>>>>>>>     etc.?
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>     And let???Ts be realistic.  We celebrate every single
>>>>>>>>>   developer
>>>>>>>>>   hired
>>>>>>>>>     to
>>>>>>>>>     improve accessibility.  This tells something about the
>>>>>>>>>     state of
>>>>>>>>>   the
>>>>>>>>>     matters.  We cannot expect that a single person will fix
>>>>>>>>>     all the
>>>>>>>>>     kinds
>>>>>>>>>     of accessibility problems in all the environments.  Lukas
>>>>>>>>>     works at
>>>>>>>>>     his
>>>>>>>>>     job focusing on certain areas currently seen there as
>>>>>>>>>     urgent ones
>>>>>>>>>     and I
>>>>>>>>>     appreciate this opportunity.  Anybody else seeing a need
>>>>>>>>> to
>>>>>>>>>     work
>>>>>>>>>   on
>>>>>>>>>     other areas is welcome to contribute to whatever sees
>>>>>>>>> fit,
>>>>>>>>>   as I
>>>>>>>>>   do.
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>     Regards,
>>>>>>>>>     Milan
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>
>
>

"Accessibility in Fedora Workstation" (fwd)

[blinux-list]

Well, I am hesitant to mention anything other than screen readers on 
this list. But this whole thing started when someone attributed success 
in his home state to the NFB philosophy. But the NFB philosophy is 
meaningless.? It can be used to justify anything and it therefore means 
nothing. It can just as easily be used to blame blind people for their 
problems as it can be used to empower them. In the past 30 years that 
I've been associated with the NFB, it has done far more harm than good. 
We would all be better off without it.

The NFB should start acting more like a normal advocacy group and less 
like a cult. It would do a better job of representing blind people if it 
did.


On 8/17/22 11:22, K0LNY_Glenn wrote:
> Yeah, I had been to a state NFBN convention that year and did the PAC thing.
> Then when the NFB did that, I called up the state treasurer for the NFBN and
> cancelled my PAC plan.
> I told them that they don't care if I can read my money, then they don't
> need any from me.
> Glenn
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: "Karen Lewellen" <klewellen at shellworld.net>
> To: "Butch Bussen" <butchb at shellworld.net>
> Cc: "John G. Heim" <jheim at wisc.edu>; "K0LNY_Glenn" <glenn at ervin.email>;
> <speakup at linux-speakup.org>; "Milan Zamazal" <pdm at zamazal.org>;
> <Blinux-list at redhat.com>
> Sent: Wednesday, August 17, 2022 11:18 AM
> Subject: Re: "Accessibility in Fedora Workstation" (fwd)
>
>
> My personal favorite is the rejection of money that could be identified
> by touch.  never mind that for honestly thousands of years the practice has
> been common so those with limited education could still engage in commerce.
>
>
>
> On Wed, 17 Aug 2022, Butch Bussen wrote:
>
>> Yes, I remember that.  And what about their oposition to descriptive
>> video,
>> even filed a law sute to get the law thrown out, which it was at that
>> time.
>> 73
>> Butch
>> WA0VJR
>> Node 3148
>> Wallace, ks.
>>
>>
>> On Tue, 16 Aug 2022, John G. Heim wrote:
>>
>>>   Holy cow! Are you aware that the NFB once asked Microsoft to *NOT*
>>> improve
>>>   Narrator to the point where it would compete with Jaws? If you think the
>>>   NFB is incapable of forcing choices on people, you are very sadly
>>>   mistaken.
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>   On 8/16/22 09:36, K0LNY_Glenn wrote:
>>>>    This sort of thing would never happen in Nebraska, or any state where
>>>>    the
>>>>    agency staff is of the NFB philosophy.
>>>>    Say what you want about the NFB, no organization is without its
>>>>    problems,
>>>>    but it is the core philosophy that formed the NFB that knows that
>>>>    society
>>>>    has low expectations of the Blind, and this is why the NFB believes
>>>> in
>>>>    skills and high expectations.
>>>>    And with that, comes giving respect to the Blind, like the respect of
>>>>    choice.
>>>>    Yeah I know about the information of recent about NFB abuse, but this
>>>>    is
>>>>    organizational issues, unrelated to the philosophy.  In fact, the
>>>> fact
>>>>    that
>>>>    it has come up demonstrates that the NFB is no different than any
>>>> other
>>>>    organization in interpersonal staff issues.
>>>>    And choice does not mean training center choices.
>>>>    Choice isn't always an option, just like if you took a vocational
>>>>    course
>>>>    in
>>>>    college, there are things you have to take, so to me, the lack of
>>>>    choice
>>>>    in
>>>>    this regard is different than computer software, where all the
>>>> choices
>>>>    will
>>>>    reach the same end result.
>>>>    In states where the NFB philosophy is embraced, if a client said I
>>>> want
>>>>    to
>>>>    use a Mac, or I want Window Eyes, then that is what they would get,
>>>> no
>>>>    questions asked.
>>>>    They would not have to fight to get it.
>>>>    I simply cannot imagine a counselor saying that someone has to use
>>>> the
>>>>    software that the counselor wants them to have.
>>>>    When I hear that stuff, I almost cannot believe it, but I know Butch
>>>>    well
>>>>    enough to know he wouldn't make that up.
>>>>
>>>>    Glenn
>>>>    ----- Original Message -----
>>>>    From: "Butch Bussen" <butchb at shellworld.net>
>>>>    To: "Karen Lewellen" <klewellen at shellworld.net>
>>>>    Cc: "K0LNY_Glenn" <glenn at ervin.email>; <speakup at linux-speakup.org>;
>>>>    "Milan
>>>>    Zamazal" <pdm at zamazal.org>; <Blinux-list at redhat.com>
>>>>    Sent: Tuesday, August 16, 2022 8:18 AM
>>>>    Subject: Re: "Accessibility in Fedora Workstation" (fwd)
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>    You are right.  In Nevada, freedom pushed jaws to the rehab people
>>>> and
>>>>    took them out for steak diners and so forth.  I fought like hell to
>>>> get
>>>>    them to buy window-eyes.
>>>>    73
>>>>    Butch
>>>>    WA0VJR
>>>>    Node 3148
>>>>    Wallace, ks.
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>    On Sun, 14 Aug 2022, Karen Lewellen wrote:
>>>>
>>>>>    And where do these employers learn about jaws?
>>>>>    In fact, provide if you do not mind an example of how  this works
>>>>>    exactly.
>>>>>    after all, unless I am incorrect, these employers are not personal
>>>>>    Jaws
>>>>>    users, meaning someone they trust continues to sell them on an
>>>>>    expensive
>>>>>    program instead of a largely free one.
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>    On Sat, 13 Aug 2022, K0LNY_Glenn wrote:
>>>>>
>>>>>>      Karen,
>>>>>>      Most employers don't want NVDA, and will only allow Jaws.
>>>>>>      In Nebraska, if an employer said put on whatever works, the
>>>>>>      counselors
>>>>>>      will
>>>>>>      use NVDA, because of the cost of Jaws.
>>>>>>      If some of the clients in a call center already use Jaws, but
>>>>>>      don't know
>>>>>>      NVDA, the counselor will use Jaws, because the other clients
>>>>>> will
>>>>>>      need
>>>>>>    to
>>>>>>      learn one of the two.
>>>>>>      So it's all choice, but in the workplace, it depends on what
>>>>>> the
>>>>>>    employer
>>>>>>      will allow.
>>>>>>      Also, sometimes scripts need to be made, and there are more
>>>>>> Jaws
>>>>>>    scripters
>>>>>>      available than there are NVDA add-on writers.
>>>>>>      So this perception that Jaws is forced by rehab, from my 31
>>>>>> years
>>>>>>      in the
>>>>>>      business I can say is rubbish.
>>>>>>      Now, if a counselor did not know how to use NVDA, and either
>>>>>> may
>>>>>>      be
>>>>>>      chosen,
>>>>>>      the rehab counselor is able to select the one that the
>>>>>> counselor
>>>>>>      feels
>>>>>>    is
>>>>>>      best for the student and for the counselor's teaching.
>>>>>>      When it comes to part B moneys, which is used for
>>>>>> non-vocational
>>>>>>      purchases,
>>>>>>      where a lot of Jaws purchases come from, it is in the agency's
>>>>>>      best
>>>>>>      interest
>>>>>>      to spend as little as possible, because that doesn't come back
>>>>>>      like VR
>>>>>>      expenditures do.
>>>>>>      Glenn
>>>>>>
>>>>>>      ----- Original Message -----
>>>>>>      From: "Karen Lewellen" <klewellen at shellworld.net>
>>>>>>      To: "K0LNY_Glenn" <glenn at ervin.email>
>>>>>>      Cc: <speakup at linux-speakup.org>; "Milan Zamazal"
>>>>>>      <pdm at zamazal.org>;
>>>>>>      <Blinux-list at redhat.com>
>>>>>>      Sent: Saturday, August 13, 2022 6:15 PM
>>>>>>      Subject: Re: "Accessibility in Fedora Workstation" (fwd)
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>      The challenge with that example is that, as one often gets
>>>>>>    reminded,
>>>>>>    the
>>>>>>      rehab systems track record for facilitating  employment for
>>>>>> their
>>>>>>    clients
>>>>>>      is quite poor.
>>>>>>      With a high percentage of unemployment among our clients.
>>>>>>      Making,
>>>>>>      speaking personally, your buying Jaws for personal use not
>>>>>> really
>>>>>>      reflecting how the system would respond to an alternative
>>>>>>      request.
>>>>>>      Now if someone from organized rehab said, okay freedom
>>>>>>      scientific, we
>>>>>>    are
>>>>>>      creating an employment program where our clients will train in
>>>>>>      Linux,
>>>>>>      needing a solid screen reader solution for the system.  We will
>>>>>>      give you
>>>>>>      an
>>>>>>      exclusive development contract for s millions to create the
>>>>>> tool.
>>>>>>      Fs would likely say where do we sign?
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>      On Sat, 13 Aug 2022, K0LNY_Glenn wrote:
>>>>>>
>>>>>>>      True enough, but largely, rehab people typically use Windows
>>>>>>> at
>>>>>>>      work,
>>>>>>>      and
>>>>>>>      probably at home, but they need to cater to the needs of the
>>>>>>>      client.
>>>>>>>      If a client used Linux, I doubt that any rehab counselor
>>>>>>> would
>>>>>>>    advocate
>>>>>>>      that
>>>>>>>      the client switch to Windows, unless that was needed for a
>>>>>>>      specific
>>>>>>>    job.
>>>>>>>      In Nebraska, we purchased Jaws much more for personal use
>>>>>>> than
>>>>>>>      we did
>>>>>>>      for
>>>>>>>      work related situations.
>>>>>>>      So if FS made a JFL, and people were using Linux, rehab would
>>>>>>>      indeed
>>>>>>>      purchase a JFL product.
>>>>>>>      Glenn
>>>>>>>      ----- Original Message -----
>>>>>>>      From: "Karen Lewellen" <klewellen at shellworld.net>
>>>>>>>      To: "K0LNY_Glenn" <glenn at ervin.email>
>>>>>>>      Cc: <speakup at linux-speakup.org>; "Milan Zamazal"
>>>>>>>      <pdm at zamazal.org>;
>>>>>>>      <Blinux-list at redhat.com>
>>>>>>>      Sent: Saturday, August 13, 2022 3:01 PM
>>>>>>>      Subject: Re: "Accessibility in Fedora Workstation" (fwd)
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>      there was an interesting discussion a month or so back on the
>>>>>>>      blinux
>>>>>>>      list
>>>>>>>      about how long it took completing tasks in the gui as apposed
>>>>>>>      to say
>>>>>>>      command line,  the comments were quite informative.
>>>>>>>      Still, fs has never marketed largely to the end user. Instead
>>>>>>>      they
>>>>>>>      market
>>>>>>>      to the American rehab community.
>>>>>>>      how much market research has  the rehab community done to
>>>>>>>      support the
>>>>>>>      need
>>>>>>>      for choices?
>>>>>>>      How many rehab counselors support  training in Linux?
>>>>>>>      one comment made by the subject of this thread about poor
>>>>>>>      quality
>>>>>>>    speech
>>>>>>>      is a fine one...out of the box Linux has few speech choices.
>>>>>>>      everyone
>>>>>>>      brings their needs to the table there.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>      if you want to get fs to care about Linux, you  need to prove
>>>>>>>      there is
>>>>>>>      money for  them there, from their main source of income.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>      On Sat, 13 Aug 2022, K0LNY_Glenn wrote:
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>      Well since Orca seems to work on so many distros, I don't
>>>>>>>>    know why
>>>>>>>>    FS
>>>>>>>>      would
>>>>>>>>      not be able to do the same.
>>>>>>>>      If Jaws users could switch into Linux, it would be a real
>>>>>>>>      game
>>>>>>>>      changer,
>>>>>>>>      and
>>>>>>>>      I think with lots more Blind Linux users, we would start
>>>>>>>>      seeing
>>>>>>>>      accessibility in Linux not being a second thought.
>>>>>>>>      Glenn
>>>>>>>>      ----- Original Message -----
>>>>>>>>      From: "Karen Lewellen" <klewellen at shellworld.net>
>>>>>>>>      To: "K0LNY_Glenn" <glenn at ervin.email>
>>>>>>>>      Cc: <speakup at linux-speakup.org>; "Milan Zamazal"
>>>>>>>>      <pdm at zamazal.org>;
>>>>>>>>      <Blinux-list at redhat.com>
>>>>>>>>      Sent: Saturday, August 13, 2022 1:47 PM
>>>>>>>>      Subject: Re: "Accessibility in Fedora Workstation" (fwd)
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>      Well technically freedom scientific does not exist any
>>>>>>>>      longer, being
>>>>>>>>      bought
>>>>>>>>      by another company.
>>>>>>>>      Still, I can respect why they, or nvda have not created
>>>>>>>> their
>>>>>>>>      tools
>>>>>>>>      for
>>>>>>>>      Linux.
>>>>>>>>      That is because as I understand it, Linux is  quite like
>>>>>>>>      clay. You
>>>>>>>>    can
>>>>>>>>      mold a distribution into almost anything. there are various
>>>>>>>>      personifications of the system, all sorts of ways and
>>>>>>>> changes
>>>>>>>>      and
>>>>>>>>      options
>>>>>>>>      for creativity.
>>>>>>>>      however adaptive tools are often extensions of physical
>>>>>>>>      characteristics,
>>>>>>>>      hands, eyes, ears, brains, combinations of these.
>>>>>>>>      To build solid assistive tools one must have a solid
>>>>>>>>      foundation as
>>>>>>>>    it
>>>>>>>>      were.  that is part of why there have needed to be so few
>>>>>>>>      Apple
>>>>>>>>      efforts
>>>>>>>>      at
>>>>>>>>      inclusion, they  created  with, and then created in-house
>>>>>>>>      adaptive
>>>>>>>>      tools
>>>>>>>>      for various  populations that were built into the system.
>>>>>>>>      Although Microsoft did not bother until much later, in
>>>>>>>> theory
>>>>>>>>      at
>>>>>>>>      least,
>>>>>>>>      the
>>>>>>>>      consistency of windows is what makes it possible for
>>>>>>>> freedom
>>>>>>>>      or the
>>>>>>>>      former
>>>>>>>>      gw  micro or nvda to create something that can in theory
>>>>>>>>      work.
>>>>>>>>      Floor for the furniture is somewhat solid.
>>>>>>>>      Just my thoughts,
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>      On Sat, 13 Aug 2022, K0LNY_Glenn wrote:
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>      I would like to see Freedom Scientific make a Jaws For
>>>>>>>>>      Linux.
>>>>>>>>>      JFL
>>>>>>>>>      I'd certainly pay the yearly rental fee for it, and it
>>>>>>>>>      would bring
>>>>>>>>>      many
>>>>>>>>>      more
>>>>>>>>>      users into Linux.
>>>>>>>>>      FS could, with its resources, possibly make it more
>>>>>>>>> robust
>>>>>>>>>      than
>>>>>>>>>      Orca.
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>      Glenn
>>>>>>>>>      ----- Original Message -----
>>>>>>>>>      From: "Milan Zamazal" <pdm at zamazal.org>
>>>>>>>>>      To: <speakup at linux-speakup.org>
>>>>>>>>>      Cc: <Blinux-list at redhat.com>
>>>>>>>>>      Sent: Saturday, August 13, 2022 12:08 PM
>>>>>>>>>      Subject: Re: "Accessibility in Fedora Workstation" (fwd)
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>      "KL" == Karen Lewellen
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> <klewellen at shellworld.net>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>    writes:
>>>>>>>>>    KL>  What bothers me most are his lack of actual
>>>>>>>>>    qualifications,
>>>>>>>>>    and
>>>>>>>>> KL>    absolute dismissal of what he has not experienced..as
>>>>>>>>> if
>>>>>>>>> KL>    he
>>>>>>>>> KL>    defines Linux usage for everyone.  That attitude is
>>>>>>>>> KL>    dangerous,
>>>>>>>>> KL>    because he is educating those outside of the
>>>>>>>>> KL>    accessibility
>>>>>>>>> KL>    experiences, who will believe his ignorance is
>>>>>>>>> factual.
>>>>>>>>> KL>    he
>>>>>>>>>    has
>>>>>>>>>    KL>  to be expert, it is his job.
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>      Hi Karen,
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>      I know Lukas personally and I admire his skills and
>>>>>>>>>    qualifications.
>>>>>>>>>      I
>>>>>>>>>      also know first hand that he is open to constructive
>>>>>>>>>      feedback and
>>>>>>>>>    I
>>>>>>>>>      believe he???Td be happy to be corrected about possible
>>>>>>>>>      technical
>>>>>>>>>      inaccuracies in the interview.  It may be also a good
>>>>>>>>>      opportunity
>>>>>>>>>    to
>>>>>>>>>      find out what???Ts possibly missing in making anybody
>>>>>>>>>      better
>>>>>>>>>      informed.
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>      As for ???oabsolute dismissal of what he has not
>>>>>>>>>    experienced?????,
>>>>>>>>>    what
>>>>>>>>>      reasonable free software alternatives to a less or more
>>>>>>>>>      standard
>>>>>>>>>      desktop
>>>>>>>>>      with Orca and a software synthesizer can you see for a
>>>>>>>>>      common
>>>>>>>>>    blind
>>>>>>>>>      user
>>>>>>>>>      who needs to use a fully working web browser, to read and
>>>>>>>>>      process
>>>>>>>>>      text
>>>>>>>>>      documents, to be compatible with other computer users,
>>>>>>>>>      etc.?
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>      And let???Ts be realistic.  We celebrate every single
>>>>>>>>>    developer
>>>>>>>>>    hired
>>>>>>>>>      to
>>>>>>>>>      improve accessibility.  This tells something about the
>>>>>>>>>      state of
>>>>>>>>>    the
>>>>>>>>>      matters.  We cannot expect that a single person will fix
>>>>>>>>>      all the
>>>>>>>>>      kinds
>>>>>>>>>      of accessibility problems in all the environments.  Lukas
>>>>>>>>>      works at
>>>>>>>>>      his
>>>>>>>>>      job focusing on certain areas currently seen there as
>>>>>>>>>      urgent ones
>>>>>>>>>      and I
>>>>>>>>>      appreciate this opportunity.  Anybody else seeing a need
>>>>>>>>> to
>>>>>>>>>      work
>>>>>>>>>    on
>>>>>>>>>      other areas is welcome to contribute to whatever sees
>>>>>>>>> fit,
>>>>>>>>>    as I
>>>>>>>>>    do.
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>      Regards,
>>>>>>>>>      Milan
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>
>>>
>>>

"Accessibility in Fedora Workstation" (fwd)

[blinux-list]

wrong.
Your first duty is to those clients  You serve.  as illustrated here the Nfb 
used their ability to reach insiders to influence policy to the detriment 
of the broader community...same can clearly be said for freedom 
scientific.
That you stated clearly that your  rehab system runs on an nfb philosophy 
illustrates my point perfectly.
There are countless legal terms for  such conflicts of interest, I dare 
say if you were serving any other clientele your government watchdog would 
put  a stop  to the practice.
allows the organization to have undue almost antitrust influence on 
people's lives.



On Wed, 17 Aug 2022, K0LNY_Glenn wrote:

> I don't think so, we are people first, and being a government employee
> should not preclude personal rights.
> Besides, I attended the conventions for CEU credits, but I never joined with
> dues.
> Glenn
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: "Karen Lewellen" <klewellen at shellworld.net>
> To: "K0LNY_Glenn" <glenn at ervin.email>
> Cc: "Butch Bussen" <butchb at shellworld.net>; "John G. Heim" <jheim at wisc.edu>;
> <speakup at linux-speakup.org>; "Milan Zamazal" <pdm at zamazal.org>;
> <Blinux-list at redhat.com>
> Sent: Wednesday, August 17, 2022 11:36 AM
> Subject: Re: "Accessibility in Fedora Workstation" (fwd)
>
>
> speaking personally?
> No government employee should be a member of the NfB.   ethical conflict
> of interest personified.
>
> Karen
>
>
> On Wed, 17 Aug 2022, K0LNY_Glenn wrote:
>
>> Yeah, I had been to a state NFBN convention that year and did the PAC
>> thing.
>> Then when the NFB did that, I called up the state treasurer for the NFBN
>> and
>> cancelled my PAC plan.
>> I told them that they don't care if I can read my money, then they don't
>> need any from me.
>> Glenn
>> ----- Original Message -----
>> From: "Karen Lewellen" <klewellen at shellworld.net>
>> To: "Butch Bussen" <butchb at shellworld.net>
>> Cc: "John G. Heim" <jheim at wisc.edu>; "K0LNY_Glenn" <glenn at ervin.email>;
>> <speakup at linux-speakup.org>; "Milan Zamazal" <pdm at zamazal.org>;
>> <Blinux-list at redhat.com>
>> Sent: Wednesday, August 17, 2022 11:18 AM
>> Subject: Re: "Accessibility in Fedora Workstation" (fwd)
>>
>>
>> My personal favorite is the rejection of money that could be identified
>> by touch.  never mind that for honestly thousands of years the practice
>> has
>> been common so those with limited education could still engage in
>> commerce.
>>
>>
>>
>> On Wed, 17 Aug 2022, Butch Bussen wrote:
>>
>>> Yes, I remember that.  And what about their oposition to descriptive
>>> video,
>>> even filed a law sute to get the law thrown out, which it was at that
>>> time.
>>> 73
>>> Butch
>>> WA0VJR
>>> Node 3148
>>> Wallace, ks.
>>>
>>>
>>> On Tue, 16 Aug 2022, John G. Heim wrote:
>>>
>>>>  Holy cow! Are you aware that the NFB once asked Microsoft to *NOT*
>>>> improve
>>>>  Narrator to the point where it would compete with Jaws? If you think
>>>> the
>>>>  NFB is incapable of forcing choices on people, you are very sadly
>>>>  mistaken.
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>  On 8/16/22 09:36, K0LNY_Glenn wrote:
>>>>>   This sort of thing would never happen in Nebraska, or any state where
>>>>>   the
>>>>>   agency staff is of the NFB philosophy.
>>>>>   Say what you want about the NFB, no organization is without its
>>>>>   problems,
>>>>>   but it is the core philosophy that formed the NFB that knows that
>>>>>   society
>>>>>   has low expectations of the Blind, and this is why the NFB believes
>>>>> in
>>>>>   skills and high expectations.
>>>>>   And with that, comes giving respect to the Blind, like the respect of
>>>>>   choice.
>>>>>   Yeah I know about the information of recent about NFB abuse, but this
>>>>>   is
>>>>>   organizational issues, unrelated to the philosophy.  In fact, the
>>>>> fact
>>>>>   that
>>>>>   it has come up demonstrates that the NFB is no different than any
>>>>> other
>>>>>   organization in interpersonal staff issues.
>>>>>   And choice does not mean training center choices.
>>>>>   Choice isn't always an option, just like if you took a vocational
>>>>>   course
>>>>>   in
>>>>>   college, there are things you have to take, so to me, the lack of
>>>>>   choice
>>>>>   in
>>>>>   this regard is different than computer software, where all the
>>>>> choices
>>>>>   will
>>>>>   reach the same end result.
>>>>>   In states where the NFB philosophy is embraced, if a client said I
>>>>> want
>>>>>   to
>>>>>   use a Mac, or I want Window Eyes, then that is what they would get,
>>>>> no
>>>>>   questions asked.
>>>>>   They would not have to fight to get it.
>>>>>   I simply cannot imagine a counselor saying that someone has to use
>>>>> the
>>>>>   software that the counselor wants them to have.
>>>>>   When I hear that stuff, I almost cannot believe it, but I know Butch
>>>>>   well
>>>>>   enough to know he wouldn't make that up.
>>>>>
>>>>>   Glenn
>>>>>   ----- Original Message -----
>>>>>   From: "Butch Bussen" <butchb at shellworld.net>
>>>>>   To: "Karen Lewellen" <klewellen at shellworld.net>
>>>>>   Cc: "K0LNY_Glenn" <glenn at ervin.email>; <speakup at linux-speakup.org>;
>>>>>   "Milan
>>>>>   Zamazal" <pdm at zamazal.org>; <Blinux-list at redhat.com>
>>>>>   Sent: Tuesday, August 16, 2022 8:18 AM
>>>>>   Subject: Re: "Accessibility in Fedora Workstation" (fwd)
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>   You are right.  In Nevada, freedom pushed jaws to the rehab people
>>>>> and
>>>>>   took them out for steak diners and so forth.  I fought like hell to
>>>>> get
>>>>>   them to buy window-eyes.
>>>>>   73
>>>>>   Butch
>>>>>   WA0VJR
>>>>>   Node 3148
>>>>>   Wallace, ks.
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>   On Sun, 14 Aug 2022, Karen Lewellen wrote:
>>>>>
>>>>>>   And where do these employers learn about jaws?
>>>>>>   In fact, provide if you do not mind an example of how  this works
>>>>>>   exactly.
>>>>>>   after all, unless I am incorrect, these employers are not personal
>>>>>>   Jaws
>>>>>>   users, meaning someone they trust continues to sell them on an
>>>>>>   expensive
>>>>>>   program instead of a largely free one.
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>   On Sat, 13 Aug 2022, K0LNY_Glenn wrote:
>>>>>>
>>>>>>>     Karen,
>>>>>>>     Most employers don't want NVDA, and will only allow Jaws.
>>>>>>>     In Nebraska, if an employer said put on whatever works, the
>>>>>>>     counselors
>>>>>>>     will
>>>>>>>     use NVDA, because of the cost of Jaws.
>>>>>>>     If some of the clients in a call center already use Jaws, but
>>>>>>>     don't know
>>>>>>>     NVDA, the counselor will use Jaws, because the other clients
>>>>>>> will
>>>>>>>     need
>>>>>>>   to
>>>>>>>     learn one of the two.
>>>>>>>     So it's all choice, but in the workplace, it depends on what
>>>>>>> the
>>>>>>>   employer
>>>>>>>     will allow.
>>>>>>>     Also, sometimes scripts need to be made, and there are more
>>>>>>> Jaws
>>>>>>>   scripters
>>>>>>>     available than there are NVDA add-on writers.
>>>>>>>     So this perception that Jaws is forced by rehab, from my 31
>>>>>>> years
>>>>>>>     in the
>>>>>>>     business I can say is rubbish.
>>>>>>>     Now, if a counselor did not know how to use NVDA, and either
>>>>>>> may
>>>>>>>     be
>>>>>>>     chosen,
>>>>>>>     the rehab counselor is able to select the one that the
>>>>>>> counselor
>>>>>>>     feels
>>>>>>>   is
>>>>>>>     best for the student and for the counselor's teaching.
>>>>>>>     When it comes to part B moneys, which is used for
>>>>>>> non-vocational
>>>>>>>     purchases,
>>>>>>>     where a lot of Jaws purchases come from, it is in the agency's
>>>>>>>     best
>>>>>>>     interest
>>>>>>>     to spend as little as possible, because that doesn't come back
>>>>>>>     like VR
>>>>>>>     expenditures do.
>>>>>>>     Glenn
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>     ----- Original Message -----
>>>>>>>     From: "Karen Lewellen" <klewellen at shellworld.net>
>>>>>>>     To: "K0LNY_Glenn" <glenn at ervin.email>
>>>>>>>     Cc: <speakup at linux-speakup.org>; "Milan Zamazal"
>>>>>>>     <pdm at zamazal.org>;
>>>>>>>     <Blinux-list at redhat.com>
>>>>>>>     Sent: Saturday, August 13, 2022 6:15 PM
>>>>>>>     Subject: Re: "Accessibility in Fedora Workstation" (fwd)
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>     The challenge with that example is that, as one often gets
>>>>>>>   reminded,
>>>>>>>   the
>>>>>>>     rehab systems track record for facilitating  employment for
>>>>>>> their
>>>>>>>   clients
>>>>>>>     is quite poor.
>>>>>>>     With a high percentage of unemployment among our clients.
>>>>>>>     Making,
>>>>>>>     speaking personally, your buying Jaws for personal use not
>>>>>>> really
>>>>>>>     reflecting how the system would respond to an alternative
>>>>>>>     request.
>>>>>>>     Now if someone from organized rehab said, okay freedom
>>>>>>>     scientific, we
>>>>>>>   are
>>>>>>>     creating an employment program where our clients will train in
>>>>>>>     Linux,
>>>>>>>     needing a solid screen reader solution for the system.  We will
>>>>>>>     give you
>>>>>>>     an
>>>>>>>     exclusive development contract for s millions to create the
>>>>>>> tool.
>>>>>>>     Fs would likely say where do we sign?
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>     On Sat, 13 Aug 2022, K0LNY_Glenn wrote:
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>     True enough, but largely, rehab people typically use Windows
>>>>>>>> at
>>>>>>>>     work,
>>>>>>>>     and
>>>>>>>>     probably at home, but they need to cater to the needs of the
>>>>>>>>     client.
>>>>>>>>     If a client used Linux, I doubt that any rehab counselor
>>>>>>>> would
>>>>>>>>   advocate
>>>>>>>>     that
>>>>>>>>     the client switch to Windows, unless that was needed for a
>>>>>>>>     specific
>>>>>>>>   job.
>>>>>>>>     In Nebraska, we purchased Jaws much more for personal use
>>>>>>>> than
>>>>>>>>     we did
>>>>>>>>     for
>>>>>>>>     work related situations.
>>>>>>>>     So if FS made a JFL, and people were using Linux, rehab would
>>>>>>>>     indeed
>>>>>>>>     purchase a JFL product.
>>>>>>>>     Glenn
>>>>>>>>     ----- Original Message -----
>>>>>>>>     From: "Karen Lewellen" <klewellen at shellworld.net>
>>>>>>>>     To: "K0LNY_Glenn" <glenn at ervin.email>
>>>>>>>>     Cc: <speakup at linux-speakup.org>; "Milan Zamazal"
>>>>>>>>     <pdm at zamazal.org>;
>>>>>>>>     <Blinux-list at redhat.com>
>>>>>>>>     Sent: Saturday, August 13, 2022 3:01 PM
>>>>>>>>     Subject: Re: "Accessibility in Fedora Workstation" (fwd)
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>     there was an interesting discussion a month or so back on the
>>>>>>>>     blinux
>>>>>>>>     list
>>>>>>>>     about how long it took completing tasks in the gui as apposed
>>>>>>>>     to say
>>>>>>>>     command line,  the comments were quite informative.
>>>>>>>>     Still, fs has never marketed largely to the end user. Instead
>>>>>>>>     they
>>>>>>>>     market
>>>>>>>>     to the American rehab community.
>>>>>>>>     how much market research has  the rehab community done to
>>>>>>>>     support the
>>>>>>>>     need
>>>>>>>>     for choices?
>>>>>>>>     How many rehab counselors support  training in Linux?
>>>>>>>>     one comment made by the subject of this thread about poor
>>>>>>>>     quality
>>>>>>>>   speech
>>>>>>>>     is a fine one...out of the box Linux has few speech choices.
>>>>>>>>     everyone
>>>>>>>>     brings their needs to the table there.
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>     if you want to get fs to care about Linux, you  need to prove
>>>>>>>>     there is
>>>>>>>>     money for  them there, from their main source of income.
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>     On Sat, 13 Aug 2022, K0LNY_Glenn wrote:
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>     Well since Orca seems to work on so many distros, I don't
>>>>>>>>>   know why
>>>>>>>>>   FS
>>>>>>>>>     would
>>>>>>>>>     not be able to do the same.
>>>>>>>>>     If Jaws users could switch into Linux, it would be a real
>>>>>>>>>     game
>>>>>>>>>     changer,
>>>>>>>>>     and
>>>>>>>>>     I think with lots more Blind Linux users, we would start
>>>>>>>>>     seeing
>>>>>>>>>     accessibility in Linux not being a second thought.
>>>>>>>>>     Glenn
>>>>>>>>>     ----- Original Message -----
>>>>>>>>>     From: "Karen Lewellen" <klewellen at shellworld.net>
>>>>>>>>>     To: "K0LNY_Glenn" <glenn at ervin.email>
>>>>>>>>>     Cc: <speakup at linux-speakup.org>; "Milan Zamazal"
>>>>>>>>>     <pdm at zamazal.org>;
>>>>>>>>>     <Blinux-list at redhat.com>
>>>>>>>>>     Sent: Saturday, August 13, 2022 1:47 PM
>>>>>>>>>     Subject: Re: "Accessibility in Fedora Workstation" (fwd)
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>     Well technically freedom scientific does not exist any
>>>>>>>>>     longer, being
>>>>>>>>>     bought
>>>>>>>>>     by another company.
>>>>>>>>>     Still, I can respect why they, or nvda have not created
>>>>>>>>> their
>>>>>>>>>     tools
>>>>>>>>>     for
>>>>>>>>>     Linux.
>>>>>>>>>     That is because as I understand it, Linux is  quite like
>>>>>>>>>     clay. You
>>>>>>>>>   can
>>>>>>>>>     mold a distribution into almost anything. there are various
>>>>>>>>>     personifications of the system, all sorts of ways and
>>>>>>>>> changes
>>>>>>>>>     and
>>>>>>>>>     options
>>>>>>>>>     for creativity.
>>>>>>>>>     however adaptive tools are often extensions of physical
>>>>>>>>>     characteristics,
>>>>>>>>>     hands, eyes, ears, brains, combinations of these.
>>>>>>>>>     To build solid assistive tools one must have a solid
>>>>>>>>>     foundation as
>>>>>>>>>   it
>>>>>>>>>     were.  that is part of why there have needed to be so few
>>>>>>>>>     Apple
>>>>>>>>>     efforts
>>>>>>>>>     at
>>>>>>>>>     inclusion, they  created  with, and then created in-house
>>>>>>>>>     adaptive
>>>>>>>>>     tools
>>>>>>>>>     for various  populations that were built into the system.
>>>>>>>>>     Although Microsoft did not bother until much later, in
>>>>>>>>> theory
>>>>>>>>>     at
>>>>>>>>>     least,
>>>>>>>>>     the
>>>>>>>>>     consistency of windows is what makes it possible for
>>>>>>>>> freedom
>>>>>>>>>     or the
>>>>>>>>>     former
>>>>>>>>>     gw  micro or nvda to create something that can in theory
>>>>>>>>>     work.
>>>>>>>>>     Floor for the furniture is somewhat solid.
>>>>>>>>>     Just my thoughts,
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>     On Sat, 13 Aug 2022, K0LNY_Glenn wrote:
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>     I would like to see Freedom Scientific make a Jaws For
>>>>>>>>>>     Linux.
>>>>>>>>>>     JFL
>>>>>>>>>>     I'd certainly pay the yearly rental fee for it, and it
>>>>>>>>>>     would bring
>>>>>>>>>>     many
>>>>>>>>>>     more
>>>>>>>>>>     users into Linux.
>>>>>>>>>>     FS could, with its resources, possibly make it more
>>>>>>>>>> robust
>>>>>>>>>>     than
>>>>>>>>>>     Orca.
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>     Glenn
>>>>>>>>>>     ----- Original Message -----
>>>>>>>>>>     From: "Milan Zamazal" <pdm at zamazal.org>
>>>>>>>>>>     To: <speakup at linux-speakup.org>
>>>>>>>>>>     Cc: <Blinux-list at redhat.com>
>>>>>>>>>>     Sent: Saturday, August 13, 2022 12:08 PM
>>>>>>>>>>     Subject: Re: "Accessibility in Fedora Workstation" (fwd)
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>     "KL" == Karen Lewellen
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> <klewellen at shellworld.net>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>   writes:
>>>>>>>>>>   KL>  What bothers me most are his lack of actual
>>>>>>>>>>   qualifications,
>>>>>>>>>>   and
>>>>>>>>>> KL>    absolute dismissal of what he has not experienced..as
>>>>>>>>>> if
>>>>>>>>>> KL>    he
>>>>>>>>>> KL>    defines Linux usage for everyone.  That attitude is
>>>>>>>>>> KL>    dangerous,
>>>>>>>>>> KL>    because he is educating those outside of the
>>>>>>>>>> KL>    accessibility
>>>>>>>>>> KL>    experiences, who will believe his ignorance is
>>>>>>>>>> factual.
>>>>>>>>>> KL>    he
>>>>>>>>>>   has
>>>>>>>>>>   KL>  to be expert, it is his job.
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>     Hi Karen,
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>     I know Lukas personally and I admire his skills and
>>>>>>>>>>   qualifications.
>>>>>>>>>>     I
>>>>>>>>>>     also know first hand that he is open to constructive
>>>>>>>>>>     feedback and
>>>>>>>>>>   I
>>>>>>>>>>     believe he???Td be happy to be corrected about possible
>>>>>>>>>>     technical
>>>>>>>>>>     inaccuracies in the interview.  It may be also a good
>>>>>>>>>>     opportunity
>>>>>>>>>>   to
>>>>>>>>>>     find out what???Ts possibly missing in making anybody
>>>>>>>>>>     better
>>>>>>>>>>     informed.
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>     As for ???oabsolute dismissal of what he has not
>>>>>>>>>>   experienced?????,
>>>>>>>>>>   what
>>>>>>>>>>     reasonable free software alternatives to a less or more
>>>>>>>>>>     standard
>>>>>>>>>>     desktop
>>>>>>>>>>     with Orca and a software synthesizer can you see for a
>>>>>>>>>>     common
>>>>>>>>>>   blind
>>>>>>>>>>     user
>>>>>>>>>>     who needs to use a fully working web browser, to read and
>>>>>>>>>>     process
>>>>>>>>>>     text
>>>>>>>>>>     documents, to be compatible with other computer users,
>>>>>>>>>>     etc.?
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>     And let???Ts be realistic.  We celebrate every single
>>>>>>>>>>   developer
>>>>>>>>>>   hired
>>>>>>>>>>     to
>>>>>>>>>>     improve accessibility.  This tells something about the
>>>>>>>>>>     state of
>>>>>>>>>>   the
>>>>>>>>>>     matters.  We cannot expect that a single person will fix
>>>>>>>>>>     all the
>>>>>>>>>>     kinds
>>>>>>>>>>     of accessibility problems in all the environments.  Lukas
>>>>>>>>>>     works at
>>>>>>>>>>     his
>>>>>>>>>>     job focusing on certain areas currently seen there as
>>>>>>>>>>     urgent ones
>>>>>>>>>>     and I
>>>>>>>>>>     appreciate this opportunity.  Anybody else seeing a need
>>>>>>>>>> to
>>>>>>>>>>     work
>>>>>>>>>>   on
>>>>>>>>>>     other areas is welcome to contribute to whatever sees
>>>>>>>>>> fit,
>>>>>>>>>>   as I
>>>>>>>>>>   do.
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>     Regards,
>>>>>>>>>>     Milan
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>
>>
>>
>
>
>

"Accessibility in Fedora Workstation" (fwd)

[blinux-list]

Glen,
you are missing the point.
A commission board, at least if constructed  with integrity serves as a 
watchdog for your organization's activities.
Making sure that you act, objectively, and above influence with government 
funding.
That role differs from a public servant, like yourself.
In fact that the commission  has members from both organizations is 
exactly why you should not be a member.
if, as you said, the state has an Nfb philosophy, I wonder  just how above 
influence  that commission actually is, lip service attendance does not 
translate  to the statement you freely made.
Honestly, i wish I knew someone with Nebraska public radio.  there is a 
investigative, data journalism piece right here, exploring how objective 
your  office is in fact.



On Wed, 17 Aug 2022, K0LNY_Glenn wrote:

> Karen,
> In Nebraska, the commission board attends both consumer groups' state
> conventions.
> So there is total transparency within the consumer groups.
> The agency sends clients to both conventions for educational purposes.
> Some can go to either national convention on the state.
> Glenn
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: "Karen Lewellen" <klewellen at shellworld.net>
> To: "K0LNY_Glenn" <glenn at ervin.email>
> Cc: "Butch Bussen" <butchb at shellworld.net>; "John G. Heim" <jheim at wisc.edu>;
> <speakup at linux-speakup.org>; "Milan Zamazal" <pdm at zamazal.org>;
> <Blinux-list at redhat.com>
> Sent: Wednesday, August 17, 2022 2:06 PM
> Subject: Re: "Accessibility in Fedora Workstation" (fwd)
>
>
> wrong.
> Your first duty is to those clients  You serve.  as illustrated here the Nfb
> used their ability to reach insiders to influence policy to the detriment
> of the broader community...same can clearly be said for freedom
> scientific.
> That you stated clearly that your  rehab system runs on an nfb philosophy
> illustrates my point perfectly.
> There are countless legal terms for  such conflicts of interest, I dare
> say if you were serving any other clientele your government watchdog would
> put  a stop  to the practice.
> allows the organization to have undue almost antitrust influence on
> people's lives.
>
>
>
> On Wed, 17 Aug 2022, K0LNY_Glenn wrote:
>
>> I don't think so, we are people first, and being a government employee
>> should not preclude personal rights.
>> Besides, I attended the conventions for CEU credits, but I never joined
>> with
>> dues.
>> Glenn
>> ----- Original Message -----
>> From: "Karen Lewellen" <klewellen at shellworld.net>
>> To: "K0LNY_Glenn" <glenn at ervin.email>
>> Cc: "Butch Bussen" <butchb at shellworld.net>; "John G. Heim"
>> <jheim at wisc.edu>;
>> <speakup at linux-speakup.org>; "Milan Zamazal" <pdm at zamazal.org>;
>> <Blinux-list at redhat.com>
>> Sent: Wednesday, August 17, 2022 11:36 AM
>> Subject: Re: "Accessibility in Fedora Workstation" (fwd)
>>
>>
>> speaking personally?
>> No government employee should be a member of the NfB.   ethical conflict
>> of interest personified.
>>
>> Karen
>>
>>
>> On Wed, 17 Aug 2022, K0LNY_Glenn wrote:
>>
>>> Yeah, I had been to a state NFBN convention that year and did the PAC
>>> thing.
>>> Then when the NFB did that, I called up the state treasurer for the NFBN
>>> and
>>> cancelled my PAC plan.
>>> I told them that they don't care if I can read my money, then they don't
>>> need any from me.
>>> Glenn
>>> ----- Original Message -----
>>> From: "Karen Lewellen" <klewellen at shellworld.net>
>>> To: "Butch Bussen" <butchb at shellworld.net>
>>> Cc: "John G. Heim" <jheim at wisc.edu>; "K0LNY_Glenn" <glenn at ervin.email>;
>>> <speakup at linux-speakup.org>; "Milan Zamazal" <pdm at zamazal.org>;
>>> <Blinux-list at redhat.com>
>>> Sent: Wednesday, August 17, 2022 11:18 AM
>>> Subject: Re: "Accessibility in Fedora Workstation" (fwd)
>>>
>>>
>>> My personal favorite is the rejection of money that could be identified
>>> by touch.  never mind that for honestly thousands of years the practice
>>> has
>>> been common so those with limited education could still engage in
>>> commerce.
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> On Wed, 17 Aug 2022, Butch Bussen wrote:
>>>
>>>> Yes, I remember that.  And what about their oposition to descriptive
>>>> video,
>>>> even filed a law sute to get the law thrown out, which it was at that
>>>> time.
>>>> 73
>>>> Butch
>>>> WA0VJR
>>>> Node 3148
>>>> Wallace, ks.
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> On Tue, 16 Aug 2022, John G. Heim wrote:
>>>>
>>>>>  Holy cow! Are you aware that the NFB once asked Microsoft to *NOT*
>>>>> improve
>>>>>  Narrator to the point where it would compete with Jaws? If you think
>>>>> the
>>>>>  NFB is incapable of forcing choices on people, you are very sadly
>>>>>  mistaken.
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>  On 8/16/22 09:36, K0LNY_Glenn wrote:
>>>>>>   This sort of thing would never happen in Nebraska, or any state
>>>>>> where
>>>>>>   the
>>>>>>   agency staff is of the NFB philosophy.
>>>>>>   Say what you want about the NFB, no organization is without its
>>>>>>   problems,
>>>>>>   but it is the core philosophy that formed the NFB that knows that
>>>>>>   society
>>>>>>   has low expectations of the Blind, and this is why the NFB believes
>>>>>> in
>>>>>>   skills and high expectations.
>>>>>>   And with that, comes giving respect to the Blind, like the respect
>>>>>> of
>>>>>>   choice.
>>>>>>   Yeah I know about the information of recent about NFB abuse, but
>>>>>> this
>>>>>>   is
>>>>>>   organizational issues, unrelated to the philosophy.  In fact, the
>>>>>> fact
>>>>>>   that
>>>>>>   it has come up demonstrates that the NFB is no different than any
>>>>>> other
>>>>>>   organization in interpersonal staff issues.
>>>>>>   And choice does not mean training center choices.
>>>>>>   Choice isn't always an option, just like if you took a vocational
>>>>>>   course
>>>>>>   in
>>>>>>   college, there are things you have to take, so to me, the lack of
>>>>>>   choice
>>>>>>   in
>>>>>>   this regard is different than computer software, where all the
>>>>>> choices
>>>>>>   will
>>>>>>   reach the same end result.
>>>>>>   In states where the NFB philosophy is embraced, if a client said I
>>>>>> want
>>>>>>   to
>>>>>>   use a Mac, or I want Window Eyes, then that is what they would get,
>>>>>> no
>>>>>>   questions asked.
>>>>>>   They would not have to fight to get it.
>>>>>>   I simply cannot imagine a counselor saying that someone has to use
>>>>>> the
>>>>>>   software that the counselor wants them to have.
>>>>>>   When I hear that stuff, I almost cannot believe it, but I know Butch
>>>>>>   well
>>>>>>   enough to know he wouldn't make that up.
>>>>>>
>>>>>>   Glenn
>>>>>>   ----- Original Message -----
>>>>>>   From: "Butch Bussen" <butchb at shellworld.net>
>>>>>>   To: "Karen Lewellen" <klewellen at shellworld.net>
>>>>>>   Cc: "K0LNY_Glenn" <glenn at ervin.email>; <speakup at linux-speakup.org>;
>>>>>>   "Milan
>>>>>>   Zamazal" <pdm at zamazal.org>; <Blinux-list at redhat.com>
>>>>>>   Sent: Tuesday, August 16, 2022 8:18 AM
>>>>>>   Subject: Re: "Accessibility in Fedora Workstation" (fwd)
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>   You are right.  In Nevada, freedom pushed jaws to the rehab people
>>>>>> and
>>>>>>   took them out for steak diners and so forth.  I fought like hell to
>>>>>> get
>>>>>>   them to buy window-eyes.
>>>>>>   73
>>>>>>   Butch
>>>>>>   WA0VJR
>>>>>>   Node 3148
>>>>>>   Wallace, ks.
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>   On Sun, 14 Aug 2022, Karen Lewellen wrote:
>>>>>>
>>>>>>>   And where do these employers learn about jaws?
>>>>>>>   In fact, provide if you do not mind an example of how  this works
>>>>>>>   exactly.
>>>>>>>   after all, unless I am incorrect, these employers are not personal
>>>>>>>   Jaws
>>>>>>>   users, meaning someone they trust continues to sell them on an
>>>>>>>   expensive
>>>>>>>   program instead of a largely free one.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>   On Sat, 13 Aug 2022, K0LNY_Glenn wrote:
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>     Karen,
>>>>>>>>     Most employers don't want NVDA, and will only allow Jaws.
>>>>>>>>     In Nebraska, if an employer said put on whatever works, the
>>>>>>>>     counselors
>>>>>>>>     will
>>>>>>>>     use NVDA, because of the cost of Jaws.
>>>>>>>>     If some of the clients in a call center already use Jaws, but
>>>>>>>>     don't know
>>>>>>>>     NVDA, the counselor will use Jaws, because the other clients
>>>>>>>> will
>>>>>>>>     need
>>>>>>>>   to
>>>>>>>>     learn one of the two.
>>>>>>>>     So it's all choice, but in the workplace, it depends on what
>>>>>>>> the
>>>>>>>>   employer
>>>>>>>>     will allow.
>>>>>>>>     Also, sometimes scripts need to be made, and there are more
>>>>>>>> Jaws
>>>>>>>>   scripters
>>>>>>>>     available than there are NVDA add-on writers.
>>>>>>>>     So this perception that Jaws is forced by rehab, from my 31
>>>>>>>> years
>>>>>>>>     in the
>>>>>>>>     business I can say is rubbish.
>>>>>>>>     Now, if a counselor did not know how to use NVDA, and either
>>>>>>>> may
>>>>>>>>     be
>>>>>>>>     chosen,
>>>>>>>>     the rehab counselor is able to select the one that the
>>>>>>>> counselor
>>>>>>>>     feels
>>>>>>>>   is
>>>>>>>>     best for the student and for the counselor's teaching.
>>>>>>>>     When it comes to part B moneys, which is used for
>>>>>>>> non-vocational
>>>>>>>>     purchases,
>>>>>>>>     where a lot of Jaws purchases come from, it is in the agency's
>>>>>>>>     best
>>>>>>>>     interest
>>>>>>>>     to spend as little as possible, because that doesn't come back
>>>>>>>>     like VR
>>>>>>>>     expenditures do.
>>>>>>>>     Glenn
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>     ----- Original Message -----
>>>>>>>>     From: "Karen Lewellen" <klewellen at shellworld.net>
>>>>>>>>     To: "K0LNY_Glenn" <glenn at ervin.email>
>>>>>>>>     Cc: <speakup at linux-speakup.org>; "Milan Zamazal"
>>>>>>>>     <pdm at zamazal.org>;
>>>>>>>>     <Blinux-list at redhat.com>
>>>>>>>>     Sent: Saturday, August 13, 2022 6:15 PM
>>>>>>>>     Subject: Re: "Accessibility in Fedora Workstation" (fwd)
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>     The challenge with that example is that, as one often gets
>>>>>>>>   reminded,
>>>>>>>>   the
>>>>>>>>     rehab systems track record for facilitating  employment for
>>>>>>>> their
>>>>>>>>   clients
>>>>>>>>     is quite poor.
>>>>>>>>     With a high percentage of unemployment among our clients.
>>>>>>>>     Making,
>>>>>>>>     speaking personally, your buying Jaws for personal use not
>>>>>>>> really
>>>>>>>>     reflecting how the system would respond to an alternative
>>>>>>>>     request.
>>>>>>>>     Now if someone from organized rehab said, okay freedom
>>>>>>>>     scientific, we
>>>>>>>>   are
>>>>>>>>     creating an employment program where our clients will train in
>>>>>>>>     Linux,
>>>>>>>>     needing a solid screen reader solution for the system.  We will
>>>>>>>>     give you
>>>>>>>>     an
>>>>>>>>     exclusive development contract for s millions to create the
>>>>>>>> tool.
>>>>>>>>     Fs would likely say where do we sign?
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>     On Sat, 13 Aug 2022, K0LNY_Glenn wrote:
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>     True enough, but largely, rehab people typically use Windows
>>>>>>>>> at
>>>>>>>>>     work,
>>>>>>>>>     and
>>>>>>>>>     probably at home, but they need to cater to the needs of the
>>>>>>>>>     client.
>>>>>>>>>     If a client used Linux, I doubt that any rehab counselor
>>>>>>>>> would
>>>>>>>>>   advocate
>>>>>>>>>     that
>>>>>>>>>     the client switch to Windows, unless that was needed for a
>>>>>>>>>     specific
>>>>>>>>>   job.
>>>>>>>>>     In Nebraska, we purchased Jaws much more for personal use
>>>>>>>>> than
>>>>>>>>>     we did
>>>>>>>>>     for
>>>>>>>>>     work related situations.
>>>>>>>>>     So if FS made a JFL, and people were using Linux, rehab would
>>>>>>>>>     indeed
>>>>>>>>>     purchase a JFL product.
>>>>>>>>>     Glenn
>>>>>>>>>     ----- Original Message -----
>>>>>>>>>     From: "Karen Lewellen" <klewellen at shellworld.net>
>>>>>>>>>     To: "K0LNY_Glenn" <glenn at ervin.email>
>>>>>>>>>     Cc: <speakup at linux-speakup.org>; "Milan Zamazal"
>>>>>>>>>     <pdm at zamazal.org>;
>>>>>>>>>     <Blinux-list at redhat.com>
>>>>>>>>>     Sent: Saturday, August 13, 2022 3:01 PM
>>>>>>>>>     Subject: Re: "Accessibility in Fedora Workstation" (fwd)
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>     there was an interesting discussion a month or so back on the
>>>>>>>>>     blinux
>>>>>>>>>     list
>>>>>>>>>     about how long it took completing tasks in the gui as apposed
>>>>>>>>>     to say
>>>>>>>>>     command line,  the comments were quite informative.
>>>>>>>>>     Still, fs has never marketed largely to the end user. Instead
>>>>>>>>>     they
>>>>>>>>>     market
>>>>>>>>>     to the American rehab community.
>>>>>>>>>     how much market research has  the rehab community done to
>>>>>>>>>     support the
>>>>>>>>>     need
>>>>>>>>>     for choices?
>>>>>>>>>     How many rehab counselors support  training in Linux?
>>>>>>>>>     one comment made by the subject of this thread about poor
>>>>>>>>>     quality
>>>>>>>>>   speech
>>>>>>>>>     is a fine one...out of the box Linux has few speech choices.
>>>>>>>>>     everyone
>>>>>>>>>     brings their needs to the table there.
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>     if you want to get fs to care about Linux, you  need to prove
>>>>>>>>>     there is
>>>>>>>>>     money for  them there, from their main source of income.
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>     On Sat, 13 Aug 2022, K0LNY_Glenn wrote:
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>     Well since Orca seems to work on so many distros, I don't
>>>>>>>>>>   know why
>>>>>>>>>>   FS
>>>>>>>>>>     would
>>>>>>>>>>     not be able to do the same.
>>>>>>>>>>     If Jaws users could switch into Linux, it would be a real
>>>>>>>>>>     game
>>>>>>>>>>     changer,
>>>>>>>>>>     and
>>>>>>>>>>     I think with lots more Blind Linux users, we would start
>>>>>>>>>>     seeing
>>>>>>>>>>     accessibility in Linux not being a second thought.
>>>>>>>>>>     Glenn
>>>>>>>>>>     ----- Original Message -----
>>>>>>>>>>     From: "Karen Lewellen" <klewellen at shellworld.net>
>>>>>>>>>>     To: "K0LNY_Glenn" <glenn at ervin.email>
>>>>>>>>>>     Cc: <speakup at linux-speakup.org>; "Milan Zamazal"
>>>>>>>>>>     <pdm at zamazal.org>;
>>>>>>>>>>     <Blinux-list at redhat.com>
>>>>>>>>>>     Sent: Saturday, August 13, 2022 1:47 PM
>>>>>>>>>>     Subject: Re: "Accessibility in Fedora Workstation" (fwd)
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>     Well technically freedom scientific does not exist any
>>>>>>>>>>     longer, being
>>>>>>>>>>     bought
>>>>>>>>>>     by another company.
>>>>>>>>>>     Still, I can respect why they, or nvda have not created
>>>>>>>>>> their
>>>>>>>>>>     tools
>>>>>>>>>>     for
>>>>>>>>>>     Linux.
>>>>>>>>>>     That is because as I understand it, Linux is  quite like
>>>>>>>>>>     clay. You
>>>>>>>>>>   can
>>>>>>>>>>     mold a distribution into almost anything. there are various
>>>>>>>>>>     personifications of the system, all sorts of ways and
>>>>>>>>>> changes
>>>>>>>>>>     and
>>>>>>>>>>     options
>>>>>>>>>>     for creativity.
>>>>>>>>>>     however adaptive tools are often extensions of physical
>>>>>>>>>>     characteristics,
>>>>>>>>>>     hands, eyes, ears, brains, combinations of these.
>>>>>>>>>>     To build solid assistive tools one must have a solid
>>>>>>>>>>     foundation as
>>>>>>>>>>   it
>>>>>>>>>>     were.  that is part of why there have needed to be so few
>>>>>>>>>>     Apple
>>>>>>>>>>     efforts
>>>>>>>>>>     at
>>>>>>>>>>     inclusion, they  created  with, and then created in-house
>>>>>>>>>>     adaptive
>>>>>>>>>>     tools
>>>>>>>>>>     for various  populations that were built into the system.
>>>>>>>>>>     Although Microsoft did not bother until much later, in
>>>>>>>>>> theory
>>>>>>>>>>     at
>>>>>>>>>>     least,
>>>>>>>>>>     the
>>>>>>>>>>     consistency of windows is what makes it possible for
>>>>>>>>>> freedom
>>>>>>>>>>     or the
>>>>>>>>>>     former
>>>>>>>>>>     gw  micro or nvda to create something that can in theory
>>>>>>>>>>     work.
>>>>>>>>>>     Floor for the furniture is somewhat solid.
>>>>>>>>>>     Just my thoughts,
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>     On Sat, 13 Aug 2022, K0LNY_Glenn wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>     I would like to see Freedom Scientific make a Jaws For
>>>>>>>>>>>     Linux.
>>>>>>>>>>>     JFL
>>>>>>>>>>>     I'd certainly pay the yearly rental fee for it, and it
>>>>>>>>>>>     would bring
>>>>>>>>>>>     many
>>>>>>>>>>>     more
>>>>>>>>>>>     users into Linux.
>>>>>>>>>>>     FS could, with its resources, possibly make it more
>>>>>>>>>>> robust
>>>>>>>>>>>     than
>>>>>>>>>>>     Orca.
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>     Glenn
>>>>>>>>>>>     ----- Original Message -----
>>>>>>>>>>>     From: "Milan Zamazal" <pdm at zamazal.org>
>>>>>>>>>>>     To: <speakup at linux-speakup.org>
>>>>>>>>>>>     Cc: <Blinux-list at redhat.com>
>>>>>>>>>>>     Sent: Saturday, August 13, 2022 12:08 PM
>>>>>>>>>>>     Subject: Re: "Accessibility in Fedora Workstation" (fwd)
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>     "KL" == Karen Lewellen
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> <klewellen at shellworld.net>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>   writes:
>>>>>>>>>>>   KL>  What bothers me most are his lack of actual
>>>>>>>>>>>   qualifications,
>>>>>>>>>>>   and
>>>>>>>>>>> KL>    absolute dismissal of what he has not experienced..as
>>>>>>>>>>> if
>>>>>>>>>>> KL>    he
>>>>>>>>>>> KL>    defines Linux usage for everyone.  That attitude is
>>>>>>>>>>> KL>    dangerous,
>>>>>>>>>>> KL>    because he is educating those outside of the
>>>>>>>>>>> KL>    accessibility
>>>>>>>>>>> KL>    experiences, who will believe his ignorance is
>>>>>>>>>>> factual.
>>>>>>>>>>> KL>    he
>>>>>>>>>>>   has
>>>>>>>>>>>   KL>  to be expert, it is his job.
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>     Hi Karen,
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>     I know Lukas personally and I admire his skills and
>>>>>>>>>>>   qualifications.
>>>>>>>>>>>     I
>>>>>>>>>>>     also know first hand that he is open to constructive
>>>>>>>>>>>     feedback and
>>>>>>>>>>>   I
>>>>>>>>>>>     believe he???Td be happy to be corrected about possible
>>>>>>>>>>>     technical
>>>>>>>>>>>     inaccuracies in the interview.  It may be also a good
>>>>>>>>>>>     opportunity
>>>>>>>>>>>   to
>>>>>>>>>>>     find out what???Ts possibly missing in making anybody
>>>>>>>>>>>     better
>>>>>>>>>>>     informed.
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>     As for ???oabsolute dismissal of what he has not
>>>>>>>>>>>   experienced?????,
>>>>>>>>>>>   what
>>>>>>>>>>>     reasonable free software alternatives to a less or more
>>>>>>>>>>>     standard
>>>>>>>>>>>     desktop
>>>>>>>>>>>     with Orca and a software synthesizer can you see for a
>>>>>>>>>>>     common
>>>>>>>>>>>   blind
>>>>>>>>>>>     user
>>>>>>>>>>>     who needs to use a fully working web browser, to read and
>>>>>>>>>>>     process
>>>>>>>>>>>     text
>>>>>>>>>>>     documents, to be compatible with other computer users,
>>>>>>>>>>>     etc.?
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>     And let???Ts be realistic.  We celebrate every single
>>>>>>>>>>>   developer
>>>>>>>>>>>   hired
>>>>>>>>>>>     to
>>>>>>>>>>>     improve accessibility.  This tells something about the
>>>>>>>>>>>     state of
>>>>>>>>>>>   the
>>>>>>>>>>>     matters.  We cannot expect that a single person will fix
>>>>>>>>>>>     all the
>>>>>>>>>>>     kinds
>>>>>>>>>>>     of accessibility problems in all the environments.  Lukas
>>>>>>>>>>>     works at
>>>>>>>>>>>     his
>>>>>>>>>>>     job focusing on certain areas currently seen there as
>>>>>>>>>>>     urgent ones
>>>>>>>>>>>     and I
>>>>>>>>>>>     appreciate this opportunity.  Anybody else seeing a need
>>>>>>>>>>> to
>>>>>>>>>>>     work
>>>>>>>>>>>   on
>>>>>>>>>>>     other areas is welcome to contribute to whatever sees
>>>>>>>>>>> fit,
>>>>>>>>>>>   as I
>>>>>>>>>>>   do.
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>     Regards,
>>>>>>>>>>>     Milan
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>
>>>
>>>
>>
>>
>>
>
>

"Accessibility in Fedora Workstation" (fwd)

[blinux-list]

Do what?
where I am it is actually a violation of vendor contract to tell someone 
they must use a certain tool.
give them the chance in an office to try several things yes.
Force jaws down their throat like rehab does no.
I said I wished I knew someone in Nebraska media not that I did...although 
perhaps.



On Wed, 17 Aug 2022, K0LNY_Glenn wrote:

> Please do.
>
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: "Karen Lewellen" <klewellen at shellworld.net>
> To: "K0LNY_Glenn" <glenn at ervin.email>
> Cc: "Butch Bussen" <butchb at shellworld.net>; "John G. Heim" <jheim at wisc.edu>;
> <speakup at linux-speakup.org>; "Milan Zamazal" <pdm at zamazal.org>;
> <Blinux-list at redhat.com>
> Sent: Wednesday, August 17, 2022 3:46 PM
> Subject: Re: "Accessibility in Fedora Workstation" (fwd)
>
>
> Glen,
> you are missing the point.
> A commission board, at least if constructed  with integrity serves as a
> watchdog for your organization's activities.
> Making sure that you act, objectively, and above influence with government
> funding.
> That role differs from a public servant, like yourself.
> In fact that the commission  has members from both organizations is
> exactly why you should not be a member.
> if, as you said, the state has an Nfb philosophy, I wonder  just how above
> influence  that commission actually is, lip service attendance does not
> translate  to the statement you freely made.
> Honestly, i wish I knew someone with Nebraska public radio.  there is a
> investigative, data journalism piece right here, exploring how objective
> your  office is in fact.
>
>
>
> On Wed, 17 Aug 2022, K0LNY_Glenn wrote:
>
>> Karen,
>> In Nebraska, the commission board attends both consumer groups' state
>> conventions.
>> So there is total transparency within the consumer groups.
>> The agency sends clients to both conventions for educational purposes.
>> Some can go to either national convention on the state.
>> Glenn
>> ----- Original Message -----
>> From: "Karen Lewellen" <klewellen at shellworld.net>
>> To: "K0LNY_Glenn" <glenn at ervin.email>
>> Cc: "Butch Bussen" <butchb at shellworld.net>; "John G. Heim"
>> <jheim at wisc.edu>;
>> <speakup at linux-speakup.org>; "Milan Zamazal" <pdm at zamazal.org>;
>> <Blinux-list at redhat.com>
>> Sent: Wednesday, August 17, 2022 2:06 PM
>> Subject: Re: "Accessibility in Fedora Workstation" (fwd)
>>
>>
>> wrong.
>> Your first duty is to those clients  You serve.  as illustrated here the
>> Nfb
>> used their ability to reach insiders to influence policy to the detriment
>> of the broader community...same can clearly be said for freedom
>> scientific.
>> That you stated clearly that your  rehab system runs on an nfb philosophy
>> illustrates my point perfectly.
>> There are countless legal terms for  such conflicts of interest, I dare
>> say if you were serving any other clientele your government watchdog would
>> put  a stop  to the practice.
>> allows the organization to have undue almost antitrust influence on
>> people's lives.
>>
>>
>>
>> On Wed, 17 Aug 2022, K0LNY_Glenn wrote:
>>
>>> I don't think so, we are people first, and being a government employee
>>> should not preclude personal rights.
>>> Besides, I attended the conventions for CEU credits, but I never joined
>>> with
>>> dues.
>>> Glenn
>>> ----- Original Message -----
>>> From: "Karen Lewellen" <klewellen at shellworld.net>
>>> To: "K0LNY_Glenn" <glenn at ervin.email>
>>> Cc: "Butch Bussen" <butchb at shellworld.net>; "John G. Heim"
>>> <jheim at wisc.edu>;
>>> <speakup at linux-speakup.org>; "Milan Zamazal" <pdm at zamazal.org>;
>>> <Blinux-list at redhat.com>
>>> Sent: Wednesday, August 17, 2022 11:36 AM
>>> Subject: Re: "Accessibility in Fedora Workstation" (fwd)
>>>
>>>
>>> speaking personally?
>>> No government employee should be a member of the NfB.   ethical conflict
>>> of interest personified.
>>>
>>> Karen
>>>
>>>
>>> On Wed, 17 Aug 2022, K0LNY_Glenn wrote:
>>>
>>>> Yeah, I had been to a state NFBN convention that year and did the PAC
>>>> thing.
>>>> Then when the NFB did that, I called up the state treasurer for the NFBN
>>>> and
>>>> cancelled my PAC plan.
>>>> I told them that they don't care if I can read my money, then they don't
>>>> need any from me.
>>>> Glenn
>>>> ----- Original Message -----
>>>> From: "Karen Lewellen" <klewellen at shellworld.net>
>>>> To: "Butch Bussen" <butchb at shellworld.net>
>>>> Cc: "John G. Heim" <jheim at wisc.edu>; "K0LNY_Glenn" <glenn at ervin.email>;
>>>> <speakup at linux-speakup.org>; "Milan Zamazal" <pdm at zamazal.org>;
>>>> <Blinux-list at redhat.com>
>>>> Sent: Wednesday, August 17, 2022 11:18 AM
>>>> Subject: Re: "Accessibility in Fedora Workstation" (fwd)
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> My personal favorite is the rejection of money that could be identified
>>>> by touch.  never mind that for honestly thousands of years the practice
>>>> has
>>>> been common so those with limited education could still engage in
>>>> commerce.
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> On Wed, 17 Aug 2022, Butch Bussen wrote:
>>>>
>>>>> Yes, I remember that.  And what about their oposition to descriptive
>>>>> video,
>>>>> even filed a law sute to get the law thrown out, which it was at that
>>>>> time.
>>>>> 73
>>>>> Butch
>>>>> WA0VJR
>>>>> Node 3148
>>>>> Wallace, ks.
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> On Tue, 16 Aug 2022, John G. Heim wrote:
>>>>>
>>>>>>  Holy cow! Are you aware that the NFB once asked Microsoft to *NOT*
>>>>>> improve
>>>>>>  Narrator to the point where it would compete with Jaws? If you think
>>>>>> the
>>>>>>  NFB is incapable of forcing choices on people, you are very sadly
>>>>>>  mistaken.
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>  On 8/16/22 09:36, K0LNY_Glenn wrote:
>>>>>>>   This sort of thing would never happen in Nebraska, or any state
>>>>>>> where
>>>>>>>   the
>>>>>>>   agency staff is of the NFB philosophy.
>>>>>>>   Say what you want about the NFB, no organization is without its
>>>>>>>   problems,
>>>>>>>   but it is the core philosophy that formed the NFB that knows that
>>>>>>>   society
>>>>>>>   has low expectations of the Blind, and this is why the NFB believes
>>>>>>> in
>>>>>>>   skills and high expectations.
>>>>>>>   And with that, comes giving respect to the Blind, like the respect
>>>>>>> of
>>>>>>>   choice.
>>>>>>>   Yeah I know about the information of recent about NFB abuse, but
>>>>>>> this
>>>>>>>   is
>>>>>>>   organizational issues, unrelated to the philosophy.  In fact, the
>>>>>>> fact
>>>>>>>   that
>>>>>>>   it has come up demonstrates that the NFB is no different than any
>>>>>>> other
>>>>>>>   organization in interpersonal staff issues.
>>>>>>>   And choice does not mean training center choices.
>>>>>>>   Choice isn't always an option, just like if you took a vocational
>>>>>>>   course
>>>>>>>   in
>>>>>>>   college, there are things you have to take, so to me, the lack of
>>>>>>>   choice
>>>>>>>   in
>>>>>>>   this regard is different than computer software, where all the
>>>>>>> choices
>>>>>>>   will
>>>>>>>   reach the same end result.
>>>>>>>   In states where the NFB philosophy is embraced, if a client said I
>>>>>>> want
>>>>>>>   to
>>>>>>>   use a Mac, or I want Window Eyes, then that is what they would get,
>>>>>>> no
>>>>>>>   questions asked.
>>>>>>>   They would not have to fight to get it.
>>>>>>>   I simply cannot imagine a counselor saying that someone has to use
>>>>>>> the
>>>>>>>   software that the counselor wants them to have.
>>>>>>>   When I hear that stuff, I almost cannot believe it, but I know
>>>>>>> Butch
>>>>>>>   well
>>>>>>>   enough to know he wouldn't make that up.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>   Glenn
>>>>>>>   ----- Original Message -----
>>>>>>>   From: "Butch Bussen" <butchb at shellworld.net>
>>>>>>>   To: "Karen Lewellen" <klewellen at shellworld.net>
>>>>>>>   Cc: "K0LNY_Glenn" <glenn at ervin.email>; <speakup at linux-speakup.org>;
>>>>>>>   "Milan
>>>>>>>   Zamazal" <pdm at zamazal.org>; <Blinux-list at redhat.com>
>>>>>>>   Sent: Tuesday, August 16, 2022 8:18 AM
>>>>>>>   Subject: Re: "Accessibility in Fedora Workstation" (fwd)
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>   You are right.  In Nevada, freedom pushed jaws to the rehab people
>>>>>>> and
>>>>>>>   took them out for steak diners and so forth.  I fought like hell to
>>>>>>> get
>>>>>>>   them to buy window-eyes.
>>>>>>>   73
>>>>>>>   Butch
>>>>>>>   WA0VJR
>>>>>>>   Node 3148
>>>>>>>   Wallace, ks.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>   On Sun, 14 Aug 2022, Karen Lewellen wrote:
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>   And where do these employers learn about jaws?
>>>>>>>>   In fact, provide if you do not mind an example of how  this works
>>>>>>>>   exactly.
>>>>>>>>   after all, unless I am incorrect, these employers are not personal
>>>>>>>>   Jaws
>>>>>>>>   users, meaning someone they trust continues to sell them on an
>>>>>>>>   expensive
>>>>>>>>   program instead of a largely free one.
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>   On Sat, 13 Aug 2022, K0LNY_Glenn wrote:
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>     Karen,
>>>>>>>>>     Most employers don't want NVDA, and will only allow Jaws.
>>>>>>>>>     In Nebraska, if an employer said put on whatever works, the
>>>>>>>>>     counselors
>>>>>>>>>     will
>>>>>>>>>     use NVDA, because of the cost of Jaws.
>>>>>>>>>     If some of the clients in a call center already use Jaws, but
>>>>>>>>>     don't know
>>>>>>>>>     NVDA, the counselor will use Jaws, because the other clients
>>>>>>>>> will
>>>>>>>>>     need
>>>>>>>>>   to
>>>>>>>>>     learn one of the two.
>>>>>>>>>     So it's all choice, but in the workplace, it depends on what
>>>>>>>>> the
>>>>>>>>>   employer
>>>>>>>>>     will allow.
>>>>>>>>>     Also, sometimes scripts need to be made, and there are more
>>>>>>>>> Jaws
>>>>>>>>>   scripters
>>>>>>>>>     available than there are NVDA add-on writers.
>>>>>>>>>     So this perception that Jaws is forced by rehab, from my 31
>>>>>>>>> years
>>>>>>>>>     in the
>>>>>>>>>     business I can say is rubbish.
>>>>>>>>>     Now, if a counselor did not know how to use NVDA, and either
>>>>>>>>> may
>>>>>>>>>     be
>>>>>>>>>     chosen,
>>>>>>>>>     the rehab counselor is able to select the one that the
>>>>>>>>> counselor
>>>>>>>>>     feels
>>>>>>>>>   is
>>>>>>>>>     best for the student and for the counselor's teaching.
>>>>>>>>>     When it comes to part B moneys, which is used for
>>>>>>>>> non-vocational
>>>>>>>>>     purchases,
>>>>>>>>>     where a lot of Jaws purchases come from, it is in the agency's
>>>>>>>>>     best
>>>>>>>>>     interest
>>>>>>>>>     to spend as little as possible, because that doesn't come back
>>>>>>>>>     like VR
>>>>>>>>>     expenditures do.
>>>>>>>>>     Glenn
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>     ----- Original Message -----
>>>>>>>>>     From: "Karen Lewellen" <klewellen at shellworld.net>
>>>>>>>>>     To: "K0LNY_Glenn" <glenn at ervin.email>
>>>>>>>>>     Cc: <speakup at linux-speakup.org>; "Milan Zamazal"
>>>>>>>>>     <pdm at zamazal.org>;
>>>>>>>>>     <Blinux-list at redhat.com>
>>>>>>>>>     Sent: Saturday, August 13, 2022 6:15 PM
>>>>>>>>>     Subject: Re: "Accessibility in Fedora Workstation" (fwd)
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>     The challenge with that example is that, as one often gets
>>>>>>>>>   reminded,
>>>>>>>>>   the
>>>>>>>>>     rehab systems track record for facilitating  employment for
>>>>>>>>> their
>>>>>>>>>   clients
>>>>>>>>>     is quite poor.
>>>>>>>>>     With a high percentage of unemployment among our clients.
>>>>>>>>>     Making,
>>>>>>>>>     speaking personally, your buying Jaws for personal use not
>>>>>>>>> really
>>>>>>>>>     reflecting how the system would respond to an alternative
>>>>>>>>>     request.
>>>>>>>>>     Now if someone from organized rehab said, okay freedom
>>>>>>>>>     scientific, we
>>>>>>>>>   are
>>>>>>>>>     creating an employment program where our clients will train in
>>>>>>>>>     Linux,
>>>>>>>>>     needing a solid screen reader solution for the system.  We will
>>>>>>>>>     give you
>>>>>>>>>     an
>>>>>>>>>     exclusive development contract for s millions to create the
>>>>>>>>> tool.
>>>>>>>>>     Fs would likely say where do we sign?
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>     On Sat, 13 Aug 2022, K0LNY_Glenn wrote:
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>     True enough, but largely, rehab people typically use Windows
>>>>>>>>>> at
>>>>>>>>>>     work,
>>>>>>>>>>     and
>>>>>>>>>>     probably at home, but they need to cater to the needs of the
>>>>>>>>>>     client.
>>>>>>>>>>     If a client used Linux, I doubt that any rehab counselor
>>>>>>>>>> would
>>>>>>>>>>   advocate
>>>>>>>>>>     that
>>>>>>>>>>     the client switch to Windows, unless that was needed for a
>>>>>>>>>>     specific
>>>>>>>>>>   job.
>>>>>>>>>>     In Nebraska, we purchased Jaws much more for personal use
>>>>>>>>>> than
>>>>>>>>>>     we did
>>>>>>>>>>     for
>>>>>>>>>>     work related situations.
>>>>>>>>>>     So if FS made a JFL, and people were using Linux, rehab would
>>>>>>>>>>     indeed
>>>>>>>>>>     purchase a JFL product.
>>>>>>>>>>     Glenn
>>>>>>>>>>     ----- Original Message -----
>>>>>>>>>>     From: "Karen Lewellen" <klewellen at shellworld.net>
>>>>>>>>>>     To: "K0LNY_Glenn" <glenn at ervin.email>
>>>>>>>>>>     Cc: <speakup at linux-speakup.org>; "Milan Zamazal"
>>>>>>>>>>     <pdm at zamazal.org>;
>>>>>>>>>>     <Blinux-list at redhat.com>
>>>>>>>>>>     Sent: Saturday, August 13, 2022 3:01 PM
>>>>>>>>>>     Subject: Re: "Accessibility in Fedora Workstation" (fwd)
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>     there was an interesting discussion a month or so back on the
>>>>>>>>>>     blinux
>>>>>>>>>>     list
>>>>>>>>>>     about how long it took completing tasks in the gui as apposed
>>>>>>>>>>     to say
>>>>>>>>>>     command line,  the comments were quite informative.
>>>>>>>>>>     Still, fs has never marketed largely to the end user. Instead
>>>>>>>>>>     they
>>>>>>>>>>     market
>>>>>>>>>>     to the American rehab community.
>>>>>>>>>>     how much market research has  the rehab community done to
>>>>>>>>>>     support the
>>>>>>>>>>     need
>>>>>>>>>>     for choices?
>>>>>>>>>>     How many rehab counselors support  training in Linux?
>>>>>>>>>>     one comment made by the subject of this thread about poor
>>>>>>>>>>     quality
>>>>>>>>>>   speech
>>>>>>>>>>     is a fine one...out of the box Linux has few speech choices.
>>>>>>>>>>     everyone
>>>>>>>>>>     brings their needs to the table there.
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>     if you want to get fs to care about Linux, you  need to prove
>>>>>>>>>>     there is
>>>>>>>>>>     money for  them there, from their main source of income.
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>     On Sat, 13 Aug 2022, K0LNY_Glenn wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>     Well since Orca seems to work on so many distros, I don't
>>>>>>>>>>>   know why
>>>>>>>>>>>   FS
>>>>>>>>>>>     would
>>>>>>>>>>>     not be able to do the same.
>>>>>>>>>>>     If Jaws users could switch into Linux, it would be a real
>>>>>>>>>>>     game
>>>>>>>>>>>     changer,
>>>>>>>>>>>     and
>>>>>>>>>>>     I think with lots more Blind Linux users, we would start
>>>>>>>>>>>     seeing
>>>>>>>>>>>     accessibility in Linux not being a second thought.
>>>>>>>>>>>     Glenn
>>>>>>>>>>>     ----- Original Message -----
>>>>>>>>>>>     From: "Karen Lewellen" <klewellen at shellworld.net>
>>>>>>>>>>>     To: "K0LNY_Glenn" <glenn at ervin.email>
>>>>>>>>>>>     Cc: <speakup at linux-speakup.org>; "Milan Zamazal"
>>>>>>>>>>>     <pdm at zamazal.org>;
>>>>>>>>>>>     <Blinux-list at redhat.com>
>>>>>>>>>>>     Sent: Saturday, August 13, 2022 1:47 PM
>>>>>>>>>>>     Subject: Re: "Accessibility in Fedora Workstation" (fwd)
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>     Well technically freedom scientific does not exist any
>>>>>>>>>>>     longer, being
>>>>>>>>>>>     bought
>>>>>>>>>>>     by another company.
>>>>>>>>>>>     Still, I can respect why they, or nvda have not created
>>>>>>>>>>> their
>>>>>>>>>>>     tools
>>>>>>>>>>>     for
>>>>>>>>>>>     Linux.
>>>>>>>>>>>     That is because as I understand it, Linux is  quite like
>>>>>>>>>>>     clay. You
>>>>>>>>>>>   can
>>>>>>>>>>>     mold a distribution into almost anything. there are various
>>>>>>>>>>>     personifications of the system, all sorts of ways and
>>>>>>>>>>> changes
>>>>>>>>>>>     and
>>>>>>>>>>>     options
>>>>>>>>>>>     for creativity.
>>>>>>>>>>>     however adaptive tools are often extensions of physical
>>>>>>>>>>>     characteristics,
>>>>>>>>>>>     hands, eyes, ears, brains, combinations of these.
>>>>>>>>>>>     To build solid assistive tools one must have a solid
>>>>>>>>>>>     foundation as
>>>>>>>>>>>   it
>>>>>>>>>>>     were.  that is part of why there have needed to be so few
>>>>>>>>>>>     Apple
>>>>>>>>>>>     efforts
>>>>>>>>>>>     at
>>>>>>>>>>>     inclusion, they  created  with, and then created in-house
>>>>>>>>>>>     adaptive
>>>>>>>>>>>     tools
>>>>>>>>>>>     for various  populations that were built into the system.
>>>>>>>>>>>     Although Microsoft did not bother until much later, in
>>>>>>>>>>> theory
>>>>>>>>>>>     at
>>>>>>>>>>>     least,
>>>>>>>>>>>     the
>>>>>>>>>>>     consistency of windows is what makes it possible for
>>>>>>>>>>> freedom
>>>>>>>>>>>     or the
>>>>>>>>>>>     former
>>>>>>>>>>>     gw  micro or nvda to create something that can in theory
>>>>>>>>>>>     work.
>>>>>>>>>>>     Floor for the furniture is somewhat solid.
>>>>>>>>>>>     Just my thoughts,
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>     On Sat, 13 Aug 2022, K0LNY_Glenn wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>     I would like to see Freedom Scientific make a Jaws For
>>>>>>>>>>>>     Linux.
>>>>>>>>>>>>     JFL
>>>>>>>>>>>>     I'd certainly pay the yearly rental fee for it, and it
>>>>>>>>>>>>     would bring
>>>>>>>>>>>>     many
>>>>>>>>>>>>     more
>>>>>>>>>>>>     users into Linux.
>>>>>>>>>>>>     FS could, with its resources, possibly make it more
>>>>>>>>>>>> robust
>>>>>>>>>>>>     than
>>>>>>>>>>>>     Orca.
>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>     Glenn
>>>>>>>>>>>>     ----- Original Message -----
>>>>>>>>>>>>     From: "Milan Zamazal" <pdm at zamazal.org>
>>>>>>>>>>>>     To: <speakup at linux-speakup.org>
>>>>>>>>>>>>     Cc: <Blinux-list at redhat.com>
>>>>>>>>>>>>     Sent: Saturday, August 13, 2022 12:08 PM
>>>>>>>>>>>>     Subject: Re: "Accessibility in Fedora Workstation" (fwd)
>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>     "KL" == Karen Lewellen
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> <klewellen at shellworld.net>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>   writes:
>>>>>>>>>>>>   KL>  What bothers me most are his lack of actual
>>>>>>>>>>>>   qualifications,
>>>>>>>>>>>>   and
>>>>>>>>>>>> KL>    absolute dismissal of what he has not experienced..as
>>>>>>>>>>>> if
>>>>>>>>>>>> KL>    he
>>>>>>>>>>>> KL>    defines Linux usage for everyone.  That attitude is
>>>>>>>>>>>> KL>    dangerous,
>>>>>>>>>>>> KL>    because he is educating those outside of the
>>>>>>>>>>>> KL>    accessibility
>>>>>>>>>>>> KL>    experiences, who will believe his ignorance is
>>>>>>>>>>>> factual.
>>>>>>>>>>>> KL>    he
>>>>>>>>>>>>   has
>>>>>>>>>>>>   KL>  to be expert, it is his job.
>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>     Hi Karen,
>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>     I know Lukas personally and I admire his skills and
>>>>>>>>>>>>   qualifications.
>>>>>>>>>>>>     I
>>>>>>>>>>>>     also know first hand that he is open to constructive
>>>>>>>>>>>>     feedback and
>>>>>>>>>>>>   I
>>>>>>>>>>>>     believe he???Td be happy to be corrected about possible
>>>>>>>>>>>>     technical
>>>>>>>>>>>>     inaccuracies in the interview.  It may be also a good
>>>>>>>>>>>>     opportunity
>>>>>>>>>>>>   to
>>>>>>>>>>>>     find out what???Ts possibly missing in making anybody
>>>>>>>>>>>>     better
>>>>>>>>>>>>     informed.
>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>     As for ???oabsolute dismissal of what he has not
>>>>>>>>>>>>   experienced?????,
>>>>>>>>>>>>   what
>>>>>>>>>>>>     reasonable free software alternatives to a less or more
>>>>>>>>>>>>     standard
>>>>>>>>>>>>     desktop
>>>>>>>>>>>>     with Orca and a software synthesizer can you see for a
>>>>>>>>>>>>     common
>>>>>>>>>>>>   blind
>>>>>>>>>>>>     user
>>>>>>>>>>>>     who needs to use a fully working web browser, to read and
>>>>>>>>>>>>     process
>>>>>>>>>>>>     text
>>>>>>>>>>>>     documents, to be compatible with other computer users,
>>>>>>>>>>>>     etc.?
>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>     And let???Ts be realistic.  We celebrate every single
>>>>>>>>>>>>   developer
>>>>>>>>>>>>   hired
>>>>>>>>>>>>     to
>>>>>>>>>>>>     improve accessibility.  This tells something about the
>>>>>>>>>>>>     state of
>>>>>>>>>>>>   the
>>>>>>>>>>>>     matters.  We cannot expect that a single person will fix
>>>>>>>>>>>>     all the
>>>>>>>>>>>>     kinds
>>>>>>>>>>>>     of accessibility problems in all the environments.  Lukas
>>>>>>>>>>>>     works at
>>>>>>>>>>>>     his
>>>>>>>>>>>>     job focusing on certain areas currently seen there as
>>>>>>>>>>>>     urgent ones
>>>>>>>>>>>>     and I
>>>>>>>>>>>>     appreciate this opportunity.  Anybody else seeing a need
>>>>>>>>>>>> to
>>>>>>>>>>>>     work
>>>>>>>>>>>>   on
>>>>>>>>>>>>     other areas is welcome to contribute to whatever sees
>>>>>>>>>>>> fit,
>>>>>>>>>>>>   as I
>>>>>>>>>>>>   do.
>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>     Regards,
>>>>>>>>>>>>     Milan
>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>
>>
>
>

"Accessibility in Fedora Workstation" (fwd)

[blinux-list]

Glen,
why would I bother?
your own words as a seasoned employee speak for themselves.
Nebraska is an NFB philosophy state.
Were you  here in Ontario, that  could be a human rights violation, since 
here the code establishes that claiming everyone sharing a label 
accommodates the same is a violation of the individual's human rights.
No wonder the state of new York supported my professional move, if rehab 
systems like yours are Nfb puppets.
The commission is not the individual rehab staffer, who  states he makes 
decisions using a NFB dictionary.



On Wed, 17 Aug 2022, K0LNY_Glenn wrote:

> Karen,
> Start out at the web site for
> Nebraska Commission for the Blind.
> There are links to communicate with all the board members, who are appointed
> by the governor.
> Glenn
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: "Karen Lewellen" <klewellen at shellworld.net>
> To: "K0LNY_Glenn" <glenn at ervin.email>
> Cc: "Butch Bussen" <butchb at shellworld.net>; "John G. Heim" <jheim at wisc.edu>;
> <speakup at linux-speakup.org>; "Milan Zamazal" <pdm at zamazal.org>;
> <Blinux-list at redhat.com>
> Sent: Wednesday, August 17, 2022 4:24 PM
> Subject: Re: "Accessibility in Fedora Workstation" (fwd)
>
>
> Do what?
> where I am it is actually a violation of vendor contract to tell someone
> they must use a certain tool.
> give them the chance in an office to try several things yes.
> Force jaws down their throat like rehab does no.
> I said I wished I knew someone in Nebraska media not that I did...although
> perhaps.
>
>
>
> On Wed, 17 Aug 2022, K0LNY_Glenn wrote:
>
>> Please do.
>>
>> ----- Original Message -----
>> From: "Karen Lewellen" <klewellen at shellworld.net>
>> To: "K0LNY_Glenn" <glenn at ervin.email>
>> Cc: "Butch Bussen" <butchb at shellworld.net>; "John G. Heim"
>> <jheim at wisc.edu>;
>> <speakup at linux-speakup.org>; "Milan Zamazal" <pdm at zamazal.org>;
>> <Blinux-list at redhat.com>
>> Sent: Wednesday, August 17, 2022 3:46 PM
>> Subject: Re: "Accessibility in Fedora Workstation" (fwd)
>>
>>
>> Glen,
>> you are missing the point.
>> A commission board, at least if constructed  with integrity serves as a
>> watchdog for your organization's activities.
>> Making sure that you act, objectively, and above influence with government
>> funding.
>> That role differs from a public servant, like yourself.
>> In fact that the commission  has members from both organizations is
>> exactly why you should not be a member.
>> if, as you said, the state has an Nfb philosophy, I wonder  just how above
>> influence  that commission actually is, lip service attendance does not
>> translate  to the statement you freely made.
>> Honestly, i wish I knew someone with Nebraska public radio.  there is a
>> investigative, data journalism piece right here, exploring how objective
>> your  office is in fact.
>>
>>
>>
>> On Wed, 17 Aug 2022, K0LNY_Glenn wrote:
>>
>>> Karen,
>>> In Nebraska, the commission board attends both consumer groups' state
>>> conventions.
>>> So there is total transparency within the consumer groups.
>>> The agency sends clients to both conventions for educational purposes.
>>> Some can go to either national convention on the state.
>>> Glenn
>>> ----- Original Message -----
>>> From: "Karen Lewellen" <klewellen at shellworld.net>
>>> To: "K0LNY_Glenn" <glenn at ervin.email>
>>> Cc: "Butch Bussen" <butchb at shellworld.net>; "John G. Heim"
>>> <jheim at wisc.edu>;
>>> <speakup at linux-speakup.org>; "Milan Zamazal" <pdm at zamazal.org>;
>>> <Blinux-list at redhat.com>
>>> Sent: Wednesday, August 17, 2022 2:06 PM
>>> Subject: Re: "Accessibility in Fedora Workstation" (fwd)
>>>
>>>
>>> wrong.
>>> Your first duty is to those clients  You serve.  as illustrated here the
>>> Nfb
>>> used their ability to reach insiders to influence policy to the detriment
>>> of the broader community...same can clearly be said for freedom
>>> scientific.
>>> That you stated clearly that your  rehab system runs on an nfb philosophy
>>> illustrates my point perfectly.
>>> There are countless legal terms for  such conflicts of interest, I dare
>>> say if you were serving any other clientele your government watchdog
>>> would
>>> put  a stop  to the practice.
>>> allows the organization to have undue almost antitrust influence on
>>> people's lives.
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> On Wed, 17 Aug 2022, K0LNY_Glenn wrote:
>>>
>>>> I don't think so, we are people first, and being a government employee
>>>> should not preclude personal rights.
>>>> Besides, I attended the conventions for CEU credits, but I never joined
>>>> with
>>>> dues.
>>>> Glenn
>>>> ----- Original Message -----
>>>> From: "Karen Lewellen" <klewellen at shellworld.net>
>>>> To: "K0LNY_Glenn" <glenn at ervin.email>
>>>> Cc: "Butch Bussen" <butchb at shellworld.net>; "John G. Heim"
>>>> <jheim at wisc.edu>;
>>>> <speakup at linux-speakup.org>; "Milan Zamazal" <pdm at zamazal.org>;
>>>> <Blinux-list at redhat.com>
>>>> Sent: Wednesday, August 17, 2022 11:36 AM
>>>> Subject: Re: "Accessibility in Fedora Workstation" (fwd)
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> speaking personally?
>>>> No government employee should be a member of the NfB.   ethical conflict
>>>> of interest personified.
>>>>
>>>> Karen
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> On Wed, 17 Aug 2022, K0LNY_Glenn wrote:
>>>>
>>>>> Yeah, I had been to a state NFBN convention that year and did the PAC
>>>>> thing.
>>>>> Then when the NFB did that, I called up the state treasurer for the
>>>>> NFBN
>>>>> and
>>>>> cancelled my PAC plan.
>>>>> I told them that they don't care if I can read my money, then they
>>>>> don't
>>>>> need any from me.
>>>>> Glenn
>>>>> ----- Original Message -----
>>>>> From: "Karen Lewellen" <klewellen at shellworld.net>
>>>>> To: "Butch Bussen" <butchb at shellworld.net>
>>>>> Cc: "John G. Heim" <jheim at wisc.edu>; "K0LNY_Glenn" <glenn at ervin.email>;
>>>>> <speakup at linux-speakup.org>; "Milan Zamazal" <pdm at zamazal.org>;
>>>>> <Blinux-list at redhat.com>
>>>>> Sent: Wednesday, August 17, 2022 11:18 AM
>>>>> Subject: Re: "Accessibility in Fedora Workstation" (fwd)
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> My personal favorite is the rejection of money that could be identified
>>>>> by touch.  never mind that for honestly thousands of years the practice
>>>>> has
>>>>> been common so those with limited education could still engage in
>>>>> commerce.
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> On Wed, 17 Aug 2022, Butch Bussen wrote:
>>>>>
>>>>>> Yes, I remember that.  And what about their oposition to descriptive
>>>>>> video,
>>>>>> even filed a law sute to get the law thrown out, which it was at that
>>>>>> time.
>>>>>> 73
>>>>>> Butch
>>>>>> WA0VJR
>>>>>> Node 3148
>>>>>> Wallace, ks.
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>> On Tue, 16 Aug 2022, John G. Heim wrote:
>>>>>>
>>>>>>>  Holy cow! Are you aware that the NFB once asked Microsoft to *NOT*
>>>>>>> improve
>>>>>>>  Narrator to the point where it would compete with Jaws? If you think
>>>>>>> the
>>>>>>>  NFB is incapable of forcing choices on people, you are very sadly
>>>>>>>  mistaken.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>  On 8/16/22 09:36, K0LNY_Glenn wrote:
>>>>>>>>   This sort of thing would never happen in Nebraska, or any state
>>>>>>>> where
>>>>>>>>   the
>>>>>>>>   agency staff is of the NFB philosophy.
>>>>>>>>   Say what you want about the NFB, no organization is without its
>>>>>>>>   problems,
>>>>>>>>   but it is the core philosophy that formed the NFB that knows that
>>>>>>>>   society
>>>>>>>>   has low expectations of the Blind, and this is why the NFB
>>>>>>>> believes
>>>>>>>> in
>>>>>>>>   skills and high expectations.
>>>>>>>>   And with that, comes giving respect to the Blind, like the respect
>>>>>>>> of
>>>>>>>>   choice.
>>>>>>>>   Yeah I know about the information of recent about NFB abuse, but
>>>>>>>> this
>>>>>>>>   is
>>>>>>>>   organizational issues, unrelated to the philosophy.  In fact, the
>>>>>>>> fact
>>>>>>>>   that
>>>>>>>>   it has come up demonstrates that the NFB is no different than any
>>>>>>>> other
>>>>>>>>   organization in interpersonal staff issues.
>>>>>>>>   And choice does not mean training center choices.
>>>>>>>>   Choice isn't always an option, just like if you took a vocational
>>>>>>>>   course
>>>>>>>>   in
>>>>>>>>   college, there are things you have to take, so to me, the lack of
>>>>>>>>   choice
>>>>>>>>   in
>>>>>>>>   this regard is different than computer software, where all the
>>>>>>>> choices
>>>>>>>>   will
>>>>>>>>   reach the same end result.
>>>>>>>>   In states where the NFB philosophy is embraced, if a client said I
>>>>>>>> want
>>>>>>>>   to
>>>>>>>>   use a Mac, or I want Window Eyes, then that is what they would
>>>>>>>> get,
>>>>>>>> no
>>>>>>>>   questions asked.
>>>>>>>>   They would not have to fight to get it.
>>>>>>>>   I simply cannot imagine a counselor saying that someone has to use
>>>>>>>> the
>>>>>>>>   software that the counselor wants them to have.
>>>>>>>>   When I hear that stuff, I almost cannot believe it, but I know
>>>>>>>> Butch
>>>>>>>>   well
>>>>>>>>   enough to know he wouldn't make that up.
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>   Glenn
>>>>>>>>   ----- Original Message -----
>>>>>>>>   From: "Butch Bussen" <butchb at shellworld.net>
>>>>>>>>   To: "Karen Lewellen" <klewellen at shellworld.net>
>>>>>>>>   Cc: "K0LNY_Glenn" <glenn at ervin.email>;
>>>>>>>> <speakup at linux-speakup.org>;
>>>>>>>>   "Milan
>>>>>>>>   Zamazal" <pdm at zamazal.org>; <Blinux-list at redhat.com>
>>>>>>>>   Sent: Tuesday, August 16, 2022 8:18 AM
>>>>>>>>   Subject: Re: "Accessibility in Fedora Workstation" (fwd)
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>   You are right.  In Nevada, freedom pushed jaws to the rehab people
>>>>>>>> and
>>>>>>>>   took them out for steak diners and so forth.  I fought like hell
>>>>>>>> to
>>>>>>>> get
>>>>>>>>   them to buy window-eyes.
>>>>>>>>   73
>>>>>>>>   Butch
>>>>>>>>   WA0VJR
>>>>>>>>   Node 3148
>>>>>>>>   Wallace, ks.
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>   On Sun, 14 Aug 2022, Karen Lewellen wrote:
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>   And where do these employers learn about jaws?
>>>>>>>>>   In fact, provide if you do not mind an example of how  this works
>>>>>>>>>   exactly.
>>>>>>>>>   after all, unless I am incorrect, these employers are not
>>>>>>>>> personal
>>>>>>>>>   Jaws
>>>>>>>>>   users, meaning someone they trust continues to sell them on an
>>>>>>>>>   expensive
>>>>>>>>>   program instead of a largely free one.
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>   On Sat, 13 Aug 2022, K0LNY_Glenn wrote:
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>     Karen,
>>>>>>>>>>     Most employers don't want NVDA, and will only allow Jaws.
>>>>>>>>>>     In Nebraska, if an employer said put on whatever works, the
>>>>>>>>>>     counselors
>>>>>>>>>>     will
>>>>>>>>>>     use NVDA, because of the cost of Jaws.
>>>>>>>>>>     If some of the clients in a call center already use Jaws, but
>>>>>>>>>>     don't know
>>>>>>>>>>     NVDA, the counselor will use Jaws, because the other clients
>>>>>>>>>> will
>>>>>>>>>>     need
>>>>>>>>>>   to
>>>>>>>>>>     learn one of the two.
>>>>>>>>>>     So it's all choice, but in the workplace, it depends on what
>>>>>>>>>> the
>>>>>>>>>>   employer
>>>>>>>>>>     will allow.
>>>>>>>>>>     Also, sometimes scripts need to be made, and there are more
>>>>>>>>>> Jaws
>>>>>>>>>>   scripters
>>>>>>>>>>     available than there are NVDA add-on writers.
>>>>>>>>>>     So this perception that Jaws is forced by rehab, from my 31
>>>>>>>>>> years
>>>>>>>>>>     in the
>>>>>>>>>>     business I can say is rubbish.
>>>>>>>>>>     Now, if a counselor did not know how to use NVDA, and either
>>>>>>>>>> may
>>>>>>>>>>     be
>>>>>>>>>>     chosen,
>>>>>>>>>>     the rehab counselor is able to select the one that the
>>>>>>>>>> counselor
>>>>>>>>>>     feels
>>>>>>>>>>   is
>>>>>>>>>>     best for the student and for the counselor's teaching.
>>>>>>>>>>     When it comes to part B moneys, which is used for
>>>>>>>>>> non-vocational
>>>>>>>>>>     purchases,
>>>>>>>>>>     where a lot of Jaws purchases come from, it is in the agency's
>>>>>>>>>>     best
>>>>>>>>>>     interest
>>>>>>>>>>     to spend as little as possible, because that doesn't come back
>>>>>>>>>>     like VR
>>>>>>>>>>     expenditures do.
>>>>>>>>>>     Glenn
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>     ----- Original Message -----
>>>>>>>>>>     From: "Karen Lewellen" <klewellen at shellworld.net>
>>>>>>>>>>     To: "K0LNY_Glenn" <glenn at ervin.email>
>>>>>>>>>>     Cc: <speakup at linux-speakup.org>; "Milan Zamazal"
>>>>>>>>>>     <pdm at zamazal.org>;
>>>>>>>>>>     <Blinux-list at redhat.com>
>>>>>>>>>>     Sent: Saturday, August 13, 2022 6:15 PM
>>>>>>>>>>     Subject: Re: "Accessibility in Fedora Workstation" (fwd)
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>     The challenge with that example is that, as one often gets
>>>>>>>>>>   reminded,
>>>>>>>>>>   the
>>>>>>>>>>     rehab systems track record for facilitating  employment for
>>>>>>>>>> their
>>>>>>>>>>   clients
>>>>>>>>>>     is quite poor.
>>>>>>>>>>     With a high percentage of unemployment among our clients.
>>>>>>>>>>     Making,
>>>>>>>>>>     speaking personally, your buying Jaws for personal use not
>>>>>>>>>> really
>>>>>>>>>>     reflecting how the system would respond to an alternative
>>>>>>>>>>     request.
>>>>>>>>>>     Now if someone from organized rehab said, okay freedom
>>>>>>>>>>     scientific, we
>>>>>>>>>>   are
>>>>>>>>>>     creating an employment program where our clients will train in
>>>>>>>>>>     Linux,
>>>>>>>>>>     needing a solid screen reader solution for the system.  We
>>>>>>>>>> will
>>>>>>>>>>     give you
>>>>>>>>>>     an
>>>>>>>>>>     exclusive development contract for s millions to create the
>>>>>>>>>> tool.
>>>>>>>>>>     Fs would likely say where do we sign?
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>     On Sat, 13 Aug 2022, K0LNY_Glenn wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>     True enough, but largely, rehab people typically use Windows
>>>>>>>>>>> at
>>>>>>>>>>>     work,
>>>>>>>>>>>     and
>>>>>>>>>>>     probably at home, but they need to cater to the needs of the
>>>>>>>>>>>     client.
>>>>>>>>>>>     If a client used Linux, I doubt that any rehab counselor
>>>>>>>>>>> would
>>>>>>>>>>>   advocate
>>>>>>>>>>>     that
>>>>>>>>>>>     the client switch to Windows, unless that was needed for a
>>>>>>>>>>>     specific
>>>>>>>>>>>   job.
>>>>>>>>>>>     In Nebraska, we purchased Jaws much more for personal use
>>>>>>>>>>> than
>>>>>>>>>>>     we did
>>>>>>>>>>>     for
>>>>>>>>>>>     work related situations.
>>>>>>>>>>>     So if FS made a JFL, and people were using Linux, rehab would
>>>>>>>>>>>     indeed
>>>>>>>>>>>     purchase a JFL product.
>>>>>>>>>>>     Glenn
>>>>>>>>>>>     ----- Original Message -----
>>>>>>>>>>>     From: "Karen Lewellen" <klewellen at shellworld.net>
>>>>>>>>>>>     To: "K0LNY_Glenn" <glenn at ervin.email>
>>>>>>>>>>>     Cc: <speakup at linux-speakup.org>; "Milan Zamazal"
>>>>>>>>>>>     <pdm at zamazal.org>;
>>>>>>>>>>>     <Blinux-list at redhat.com>
>>>>>>>>>>>     Sent: Saturday, August 13, 2022 3:01 PM
>>>>>>>>>>>     Subject: Re: "Accessibility in Fedora Workstation" (fwd)
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>     there was an interesting discussion a month or so back on the
>>>>>>>>>>>     blinux
>>>>>>>>>>>     list
>>>>>>>>>>>     about how long it took completing tasks in the gui as apposed
>>>>>>>>>>>     to say
>>>>>>>>>>>     command line,  the comments were quite informative.
>>>>>>>>>>>     Still, fs has never marketed largely to the end user. Instead
>>>>>>>>>>>     they
>>>>>>>>>>>     market
>>>>>>>>>>>     to the American rehab community.
>>>>>>>>>>>     how much market research has  the rehab community done to
>>>>>>>>>>>     support the
>>>>>>>>>>>     need
>>>>>>>>>>>     for choices?
>>>>>>>>>>>     How many rehab counselors support  training in Linux?
>>>>>>>>>>>     one comment made by the subject of this thread about poor
>>>>>>>>>>>     quality
>>>>>>>>>>>   speech
>>>>>>>>>>>     is a fine one...out of the box Linux has few speech choices.
>>>>>>>>>>>     everyone
>>>>>>>>>>>     brings their needs to the table there.
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>     if you want to get fs to care about Linux, you  need to prove
>>>>>>>>>>>     there is
>>>>>>>>>>>     money for  them there, from their main source of income.
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>     On Sat, 13 Aug 2022, K0LNY_Glenn wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>     Well since Orca seems to work on so many distros, I don't
>>>>>>>>>>>>   know why
>>>>>>>>>>>>   FS
>>>>>>>>>>>>     would
>>>>>>>>>>>>     not be able to do the same.
>>>>>>>>>>>>     If Jaws users could switch into Linux, it would be a real
>>>>>>>>>>>>     game
>>>>>>>>>>>>     changer,
>>>>>>>>>>>>     and
>>>>>>>>>>>>     I think with lots more Blind Linux users, we would start
>>>>>>>>>>>>     seeing
>>>>>>>>>>>>     accessibility in Linux not being a second thought.
>>>>>>>>>>>>     Glenn
>>>>>>>>>>>>     ----- Original Message -----
>>>>>>>>>>>>     From: "Karen Lewellen" <klewellen at shellworld.net>
>>>>>>>>>>>>     To: "K0LNY_Glenn" <glenn at ervin.email>
>>>>>>>>>>>>     Cc: <speakup at linux-speakup.org>; "Milan Zamazal"
>>>>>>>>>>>>     <pdm at zamazal.org>;
>>>>>>>>>>>>     <Blinux-list at redhat.com>
>>>>>>>>>>>>     Sent: Saturday, August 13, 2022 1:47 PM
>>>>>>>>>>>>     Subject: Re: "Accessibility in Fedora Workstation" (fwd)
>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>     Well technically freedom scientific does not exist any
>>>>>>>>>>>>     longer, being
>>>>>>>>>>>>     bought
>>>>>>>>>>>>     by another company.
>>>>>>>>>>>>     Still, I can respect why they, or nvda have not created
>>>>>>>>>>>> their
>>>>>>>>>>>>     tools
>>>>>>>>>>>>     for
>>>>>>>>>>>>     Linux.
>>>>>>>>>>>>     That is because as I understand it, Linux is  quite like
>>>>>>>>>>>>     clay. You
>>>>>>>>>>>>   can
>>>>>>>>>>>>     mold a distribution into almost anything. there are various
>>>>>>>>>>>>     personifications of the system, all sorts of ways and
>>>>>>>>>>>> changes
>>>>>>>>>>>>     and
>>>>>>>>>>>>     options
>>>>>>>>>>>>     for creativity.
>>>>>>>>>>>>     however adaptive tools are often extensions of physical
>>>>>>>>>>>>     characteristics,
>>>>>>>>>>>>     hands, eyes, ears, brains, combinations of these.
>>>>>>>>>>>>     To build solid assistive tools one must have a solid
>>>>>>>>>>>>     foundation as
>>>>>>>>>>>>   it
>>>>>>>>>>>>     were.  that is part of why there have needed to be so few
>>>>>>>>>>>>     Apple
>>>>>>>>>>>>     efforts
>>>>>>>>>>>>     at
>>>>>>>>>>>>     inclusion, they  created  with, and then created in-house
>>>>>>>>>>>>     adaptive
>>>>>>>>>>>>     tools
>>>>>>>>>>>>     for various  populations that were built into the system.
>>>>>>>>>>>>     Although Microsoft did not bother until much later, in
>>>>>>>>>>>> theory
>>>>>>>>>>>>     at
>>>>>>>>>>>>     least,
>>>>>>>>>>>>     the
>>>>>>>>>>>>     consistency of windows is what makes it possible for
>>>>>>>>>>>> freedom
>>>>>>>>>>>>     or the
>>>>>>>>>>>>     former
>>>>>>>>>>>>     gw  micro or nvda to create something that can in theory
>>>>>>>>>>>>     work.
>>>>>>>>>>>>     Floor for the furniture is somewhat solid.
>>>>>>>>>>>>     Just my thoughts,
>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>     On Sat, 13 Aug 2022, K0LNY_Glenn wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>     I would like to see Freedom Scientific make a Jaws For
>>>>>>>>>>>>>     Linux.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>     JFL
>>>>>>>>>>>>>     I'd certainly pay the yearly rental fee for it, and it
>>>>>>>>>>>>>     would bring
>>>>>>>>>>>>>     many
>>>>>>>>>>>>>     more
>>>>>>>>>>>>>     users into Linux.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>     FS could, with its resources, possibly make it more
>>>>>>>>>>>>> robust
>>>>>>>>>>>>>     than
>>>>>>>>>>>>>     Orca.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>     Glenn
>>>>>>>>>>>>>     ----- Original Message -----
>>>>>>>>>>>>>     From: "Milan Zamazal" <pdm at zamazal.org>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>     To: <speakup at linux-speakup.org>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>     Cc: <Blinux-list at redhat.com>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>     Sent: Saturday, August 13, 2022 12:08 PM
>>>>>>>>>>>>>     Subject: Re: "Accessibility in Fedora Workstation" (fwd)
>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>     "KL" == Karen Lewellen
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> <klewellen at shellworld.net>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>   writes:
>>>>>>>>>>>>>   KL>  What bothers me most are his lack of actual
>>>>>>>>>>>>>   qualifications,
>>>>>>>>>>>>>   and
>>>>>>>>>>>>> KL>    absolute dismissal of what he has not experienced..as
>>>>>>>>>>>>> if
>>>>>>>>>>>>> KL>    he
>>>>>>>>>>>>> KL>    defines Linux usage for everyone.  That attitude is
>>>>>>>>>>>>> KL>    dangerous,
>>>>>>>>>>>>> KL>    because he is educating those outside of the
>>>>>>>>>>>>> KL>    accessibility
>>>>>>>>>>>>> KL>    experiences, who will believe his ignorance is
>>>>>>>>>>>>> factual.
>>>>>>>>>>>>> KL>    he
>>>>>>>>>>>>>   has
>>>>>>>>>>>>>   KL>  to be expert, it is his job.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>     Hi Karen,
>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>     I know Lukas personally and I admire his skills and
>>>>>>>>>>>>>   qualifications.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>     I
>>>>>>>>>>>>>     also know first hand that he is open to constructive
>>>>>>>>>>>>>     feedback and
>>>>>>>>>>>>>   I
>>>>>>>>>>>>>     believe he???Td be happy to be corrected about possible
>>>>>>>>>>>>>     technical
>>>>>>>>>>>>>     inaccuracies in the interview.  It may be also a good
>>>>>>>>>>>>>     opportunity
>>>>>>>>>>>>>   to
>>>>>>>>>>>>>     find out what???Ts possibly missing in making anybody
>>>>>>>>>>>>>     better
>>>>>>>>>>>>>     informed.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>     As for ???oabsolute dismissal of what he has not
>>>>>>>>>>>>>   experienced?????,
>>>>>>>>>>>>>   what
>>>>>>>>>>>>>     reasonable free software alternatives to a less or more
>>>>>>>>>>>>>     standard
>>>>>>>>>>>>>     desktop
>>>>>>>>>>>>>     with Orca and a software synthesizer can you see for a
>>>>>>>>>>>>>     common
>>>>>>>>>>>>>   blind
>>>>>>>>>>>>>     user
>>>>>>>>>>>>>     who needs to use a fully working web browser, to read and
>>>>>>>>>>>>>     process
>>>>>>>>>>>>>     text
>>>>>>>>>>>>>     documents, to be compatible with other computer users,
>>>>>>>>>>>>>     etc.?
>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>     And let???Ts be realistic.  We celebrate every single
>>>>>>>>>>>>>   developer
>>>>>>>>>>>>>   hired
>>>>>>>>>>>>>     to
>>>>>>>>>>>>>     improve accessibility.  This tells something about the
>>>>>>>>>>>>>     state of
>>>>>>>>>>>>>   the
>>>>>>>>>>>>>     matters.  We cannot expect that a single person will fix
>>>>>>>>>>>>>     all the
>>>>>>>>>>>>>     kinds
>>>>>>>>>>>>>     of accessibility problems in all the environments.  Lukas
>>>>>>>>>>>>>     works at
>>>>>>>>>>>>>     his
>>>>>>>>>>>>>     job focusing on certain areas currently seen there as
>>>>>>>>>>>>>     urgent ones
>>>>>>>>>>>>>     and I
>>>>>>>>>>>>>     appreciate this opportunity.  Anybody else seeing a need
>>>>>>>>>>>>> to
>>>>>>>>>>>>>     work
>>>>>>>>>>>>>   on
>>>>>>>>>>>>>     other areas is welcome to contribute to whatever sees
>>>>>>>>>>>>> fit,
>>>>>>>>>>>>>   as I
>>>>>>>>>>>>>   do.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>     Regards,
>>>>>>>>>>>>>     Milan
>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>
>>>
>>
>>
>
>
>

"Accessibility in Fedora Workstation" (fwd)

[blinux-list]

Glen,
I have no reason to  follow up on anything.  The role of a commission, and 
the duty of a rehab system employee are  two different things.
that you state you work for a  nfb philosophy rehab office speaks volumes 
for your integrity.
clearly your staff simply tell this commission what they want to hear, or 
they exist in name only.
nothing changes your description of your state.



On Wed, 17 Aug 2022, K0LNY_Glenn wrote:

> I knew you wouldn't follow up on it, they would just laugh at you.
> Glenn
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: "Karen Lewellen" <klewellen at shellworld.net>
> To: "K0LNY_Glenn" <glenn at ervin.email>
> Cc: "Butch Bussen" <butchb at shellworld.net>; "John G. Heim" <jheim at wisc.edu>;
> <speakup at linux-speakup.org>; "Milan Zamazal" <pdm at zamazal.org>;
> <Blinux-list at redhat.com>
> Sent: Wednesday, August 17, 2022 4:48 PM
> Subject: Re: "Accessibility in Fedora Workstation" (fwd)
>
>
> Glen,
> why would I bother?
> your own words as a seasoned employee speak for themselves.
> Nebraska is an NFB philosophy state.
> Were you  here in Ontario, that  could be a human rights violation, since
> here the code establishes that claiming everyone sharing a label
> accommodates the same is a violation of the individual's human rights.
> No wonder the state of new York supported my professional move, if rehab
> systems like yours are Nfb puppets.
> The commission is not the individual rehab staffer, who  states he makes
> decisions using a NFB dictionary.
>
>
>
> On Wed, 17 Aug 2022, K0LNY_Glenn wrote:
>
>> Karen,
>> Start out at the web site for
>> Nebraska Commission for the Blind.
>> There are links to communicate with all the board members, who are
>> appointed
>> by the governor.
>> Glenn
>> ----- Original Message -----
>> From: "Karen Lewellen" <klewellen at shellworld.net>
>> To: "K0LNY_Glenn" <glenn at ervin.email>
>> Cc: "Butch Bussen" <butchb at shellworld.net>; "John G. Heim"
>> <jheim at wisc.edu>;
>> <speakup at linux-speakup.org>; "Milan Zamazal" <pdm at zamazal.org>;
>> <Blinux-list at redhat.com>
>> Sent: Wednesday, August 17, 2022 4:24 PM
>> Subject: Re: "Accessibility in Fedora Workstation" (fwd)
>>
>>
>> Do what?
>> where I am it is actually a violation of vendor contract to tell someone
>> they must use a certain tool.
>> give them the chance in an office to try several things yes.
>> Force jaws down their throat like rehab does no.
>> I said I wished I knew someone in Nebraska media not that I did...although
>> perhaps.
>>
>>
>>
>> On Wed, 17 Aug 2022, K0LNY_Glenn wrote:
>>
>>> Please do.
>>>
>>> ----- Original Message -----
>>> From: "Karen Lewellen" <klewellen at shellworld.net>
>>> To: "K0LNY_Glenn" <glenn at ervin.email>
>>> Cc: "Butch Bussen" <butchb at shellworld.net>; "John G. Heim"
>>> <jheim at wisc.edu>;
>>> <speakup at linux-speakup.org>; "Milan Zamazal" <pdm at zamazal.org>;
>>> <Blinux-list at redhat.com>
>>> Sent: Wednesday, August 17, 2022 3:46 PM
>>> Subject: Re: "Accessibility in Fedora Workstation" (fwd)
>>>
>>>
>>> Glen,
>>> you are missing the point.
>>> A commission board, at least if constructed  with integrity serves as a
>>> watchdog for your organization's activities.
>>> Making sure that you act, objectively, and above influence with
>>> government
>>> funding.
>>> That role differs from a public servant, like yourself.
>>> In fact that the commission  has members from both organizations is
>>> exactly why you should not be a member.
>>> if, as you said, the state has an Nfb philosophy, I wonder  just how
>>> above
>>> influence  that commission actually is, lip service attendance does not
>>> translate  to the statement you freely made.
>>> Honestly, i wish I knew someone with Nebraska public radio.  there is a
>>> investigative, data journalism piece right here, exploring how objective
>>> your  office is in fact.
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> On Wed, 17 Aug 2022, K0LNY_Glenn wrote:
>>>
>>>> Karen,
>>>> In Nebraska, the commission board attends both consumer groups' state
>>>> conventions.
>>>> So there is total transparency within the consumer groups.
>>>> The agency sends clients to both conventions for educational purposes.
>>>> Some can go to either national convention on the state.
>>>> Glenn
>>>> ----- Original Message -----
>>>> From: "Karen Lewellen" <klewellen at shellworld.net>
>>>> To: "K0LNY_Glenn" <glenn at ervin.email>
>>>> Cc: "Butch Bussen" <butchb at shellworld.net>; "John G. Heim"
>>>> <jheim at wisc.edu>;
>>>> <speakup at linux-speakup.org>; "Milan Zamazal" <pdm at zamazal.org>;
>>>> <Blinux-list at redhat.com>
>>>> Sent: Wednesday, August 17, 2022 2:06 PM
>>>> Subject: Re: "Accessibility in Fedora Workstation" (fwd)
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> wrong.
>>>> Your first duty is to those clients  You serve.  as illustrated here the
>>>> Nfb
>>>> used their ability to reach insiders to influence policy to the
>>>> detriment
>>>> of the broader community...same can clearly be said for freedom
>>>> scientific.
>>>> That you stated clearly that your  rehab system runs on an nfb
>>>> philosophy
>>>> illustrates my point perfectly.
>>>> There are countless legal terms for  such conflicts of interest, I dare
>>>> say if you were serving any other clientele your government watchdog
>>>> would
>>>> put  a stop  to the practice.
>>>> allows the organization to have undue almost antitrust influence on
>>>> people's lives.
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> On Wed, 17 Aug 2022, K0LNY_Glenn wrote:
>>>>
>>>>> I don't think so, we are people first, and being a government employee
>>>>> should not preclude personal rights.
>>>>> Besides, I attended the conventions for CEU credits, but I never joined
>>>>> with
>>>>> dues.
>>>>> Glenn
>>>>> ----- Original Message -----
>>>>> From: "Karen Lewellen" <klewellen at shellworld.net>
>>>>> To: "K0LNY_Glenn" <glenn at ervin.email>
>>>>> Cc: "Butch Bussen" <butchb at shellworld.net>; "John G. Heim"
>>>>> <jheim at wisc.edu>;
>>>>> <speakup at linux-speakup.org>; "Milan Zamazal" <pdm at zamazal.org>;
>>>>> <Blinux-list at redhat.com>
>>>>> Sent: Wednesday, August 17, 2022 11:36 AM
>>>>> Subject: Re: "Accessibility in Fedora Workstation" (fwd)
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> speaking personally?
>>>>> No government employee should be a member of the NfB.   ethical
>>>>> conflict
>>>>> of interest personified.
>>>>>
>>>>> Karen
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> On Wed, 17 Aug 2022, K0LNY_Glenn wrote:
>>>>>
>>>>>> Yeah, I had been to a state NFBN convention that year and did the PAC
>>>>>> thing.
>>>>>> Then when the NFB did that, I called up the state treasurer for the
>>>>>> NFBN
>>>>>> and
>>>>>> cancelled my PAC plan.
>>>>>> I told them that they don't care if I can read my money, then they
>>>>>> don't
>>>>>> need any from me.
>>>>>> Glenn
>>>>>> ----- Original Message -----
>>>>>> From: "Karen Lewellen" <klewellen at shellworld.net>
>>>>>> To: "Butch Bussen" <butchb at shellworld.net>
>>>>>> Cc: "John G. Heim" <jheim at wisc.edu>; "K0LNY_Glenn"
>>>>>> <glenn at ervin.email>;
>>>>>> <speakup at linux-speakup.org>; "Milan Zamazal" <pdm at zamazal.org>;
>>>>>> <Blinux-list at redhat.com>
>>>>>> Sent: Wednesday, August 17, 2022 11:18 AM
>>>>>> Subject: Re: "Accessibility in Fedora Workstation" (fwd)
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>> My personal favorite is the rejection of money that could be
>>>>>> identified
>>>>>> by touch.  never mind that for honestly thousands of years the
>>>>>> practice
>>>>>> has
>>>>>> been common so those with limited education could still engage in
>>>>>> commerce.
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>> On Wed, 17 Aug 2022, Butch Bussen wrote:
>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Yes, I remember that.  And what about their oposition to descriptive
>>>>>>> video,
>>>>>>> even filed a law sute to get the law thrown out, which it was at that
>>>>>>> time.
>>>>>>> 73
>>>>>>> Butch
>>>>>>> WA0VJR
>>>>>>> Node 3148
>>>>>>> Wallace, ks.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> On Tue, 16 Aug 2022, John G. Heim wrote:
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>  Holy cow! Are you aware that the NFB once asked Microsoft to *NOT*
>>>>>>>> improve
>>>>>>>>  Narrator to the point where it would compete with Jaws? If you
>>>>>>>> think
>>>>>>>> the
>>>>>>>>  NFB is incapable of forcing choices on people, you are very sadly
>>>>>>>>  mistaken.
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>  On 8/16/22 09:36, K0LNY_Glenn wrote:
>>>>>>>>>   This sort of thing would never happen in Nebraska, or any state
>>>>>>>>> where
>>>>>>>>>   the
>>>>>>>>>   agency staff is of the NFB philosophy.
>>>>>>>>>   Say what you want about the NFB, no organization is without its
>>>>>>>>>   problems,
>>>>>>>>>   but it is the core philosophy that formed the NFB that knows that
>>>>>>>>>   society
>>>>>>>>>   has low expectations of the Blind, and this is why the NFB
>>>>>>>>> believes
>>>>>>>>> in
>>>>>>>>>   skills and high expectations.
>>>>>>>>>   And with that, comes giving respect to the Blind, like the
>>>>>>>>> respect
>>>>>>>>> of
>>>>>>>>>   choice.
>>>>>>>>>   Yeah I know about the information of recent about NFB abuse, but
>>>>>>>>> this
>>>>>>>>>   is
>>>>>>>>>   organizational issues, unrelated to the philosophy.  In fact, the
>>>>>>>>> fact
>>>>>>>>>   that
>>>>>>>>>   it has come up demonstrates that the NFB is no different than any
>>>>>>>>> other
>>>>>>>>>   organization in interpersonal staff issues.
>>>>>>>>>   And choice does not mean training center choices.
>>>>>>>>>   Choice isn't always an option, just like if you took a vocational
>>>>>>>>>   course
>>>>>>>>>   in
>>>>>>>>>   college, there are things you have to take, so to me, the lack of
>>>>>>>>>   choice
>>>>>>>>>   in
>>>>>>>>>   this regard is different than computer software, where all the
>>>>>>>>> choices
>>>>>>>>>   will
>>>>>>>>>   reach the same end result.
>>>>>>>>>   In states where the NFB philosophy is embraced, if a client said
>>>>>>>>> I
>>>>>>>>> want
>>>>>>>>>   to
>>>>>>>>>   use a Mac, or I want Window Eyes, then that is what they would
>>>>>>>>> get,
>>>>>>>>> no
>>>>>>>>>   questions asked.
>>>>>>>>>   They would not have to fight to get it.
>>>>>>>>>   I simply cannot imagine a counselor saying that someone has to
>>>>>>>>> use
>>>>>>>>> the
>>>>>>>>>   software that the counselor wants them to have.
>>>>>>>>>   When I hear that stuff, I almost cannot believe it, but I know
>>>>>>>>> Butch
>>>>>>>>>   well
>>>>>>>>>   enough to know he wouldn't make that up.
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>   Glenn
>>>>>>>>>   ----- Original Message -----
>>>>>>>>>   From: "Butch Bussen" <butchb at shellworld.net>
>>>>>>>>>   To: "Karen Lewellen" <klewellen at shellworld.net>
>>>>>>>>>   Cc: "K0LNY_Glenn" <glenn at ervin.email>;
>>>>>>>>> <speakup at linux-speakup.org>;
>>>>>>>>>   "Milan
>>>>>>>>>   Zamazal" <pdm at zamazal.org>; <Blinux-list at redhat.com>
>>>>>>>>>   Sent: Tuesday, August 16, 2022 8:18 AM
>>>>>>>>>   Subject: Re: "Accessibility in Fedora Workstation" (fwd)
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>   You are right.  In Nevada, freedom pushed jaws to the rehab
>>>>>>>>> people
>>>>>>>>> and
>>>>>>>>>   took them out for steak diners and so forth.  I fought like hell
>>>>>>>>> to
>>>>>>>>> get
>>>>>>>>>   them to buy window-eyes.
>>>>>>>>>   73
>>>>>>>>>   Butch
>>>>>>>>>   WA0VJR
>>>>>>>>>   Node 3148
>>>>>>>>>   Wallace, ks.
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>   On Sun, 14 Aug 2022, Karen Lewellen wrote:
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>   And where do these employers learn about jaws?
>>>>>>>>>>   In fact, provide if you do not mind an example of how  this
>>>>>>>>>> works
>>>>>>>>>>   exactly.
>>>>>>>>>>   after all, unless I am incorrect, these employers are not
>>>>>>>>>> personal
>>>>>>>>>>   Jaws
>>>>>>>>>>   users, meaning someone they trust continues to sell them on an
>>>>>>>>>>   expensive
>>>>>>>>>>   program instead of a largely free one.
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>   On Sat, 13 Aug 2022, K0LNY_Glenn wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>     Karen,
>>>>>>>>>>>     Most employers don't want NVDA, and will only allow Jaws.
>>>>>>>>>>>     In Nebraska, if an employer said put on whatever works, the
>>>>>>>>>>>     counselors
>>>>>>>>>>>     will
>>>>>>>>>>>     use NVDA, because of the cost of Jaws.
>>>>>>>>>>>     If some of the clients in a call center already use Jaws, but
>>>>>>>>>>>     don't know
>>>>>>>>>>>     NVDA, the counselor will use Jaws, because the other clients
>>>>>>>>>>> will
>>>>>>>>>>>     need
>>>>>>>>>>>   to
>>>>>>>>>>>     learn one of the two.
>>>>>>>>>>>     So it's all choice, but in the workplace, it depends on what
>>>>>>>>>>> the
>>>>>>>>>>>   employer
>>>>>>>>>>>     will allow.
>>>>>>>>>>>     Also, sometimes scripts need to be made, and there are more
>>>>>>>>>>> Jaws
>>>>>>>>>>>   scripters
>>>>>>>>>>>     available than there are NVDA add-on writers.
>>>>>>>>>>>     So this perception that Jaws is forced by rehab, from my 31
>>>>>>>>>>> years
>>>>>>>>>>>     in the
>>>>>>>>>>>     business I can say is rubbish.
>>>>>>>>>>>     Now, if a counselor did not know how to use NVDA, and either
>>>>>>>>>>> may
>>>>>>>>>>>     be
>>>>>>>>>>>     chosen,
>>>>>>>>>>>     the rehab counselor is able to select the one that the
>>>>>>>>>>> counselor
>>>>>>>>>>>     feels
>>>>>>>>>>>   is
>>>>>>>>>>>     best for the student and for the counselor's teaching.
>>>>>>>>>>>     When it comes to part B moneys, which is used for
>>>>>>>>>>> non-vocational
>>>>>>>>>>>     purchases,
>>>>>>>>>>>     where a lot of Jaws purchases come from, it is in the
>>>>>>>>>>> agency's
>>>>>>>>>>>     best
>>>>>>>>>>>     interest
>>>>>>>>>>>     to spend as little as possible, because that doesn't come
>>>>>>>>>>> back
>>>>>>>>>>>     like VR
>>>>>>>>>>>     expenditures do.
>>>>>>>>>>>     Glenn
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>     ----- Original Message -----
>>>>>>>>>>>     From: "Karen Lewellen" <klewellen at shellworld.net>
>>>>>>>>>>>     To: "K0LNY_Glenn" <glenn at ervin.email>
>>>>>>>>>>>     Cc: <speakup at linux-speakup.org>; "Milan Zamazal"
>>>>>>>>>>>     <pdm at zamazal.org>;
>>>>>>>>>>>     <Blinux-list at redhat.com>
>>>>>>>>>>>     Sent: Saturday, August 13, 2022 6:15 PM
>>>>>>>>>>>     Subject: Re: "Accessibility in Fedora Workstation" (fwd)
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>     The challenge with that example is that, as one often gets
>>>>>>>>>>>   reminded,
>>>>>>>>>>>   the
>>>>>>>>>>>     rehab systems track record for facilitating  employment for
>>>>>>>>>>> their
>>>>>>>>>>>   clients
>>>>>>>>>>>     is quite poor.
>>>>>>>>>>>     With a high percentage of unemployment among our clients.
>>>>>>>>>>>     Making,
>>>>>>>>>>>     speaking personally, your buying Jaws for personal use not
>>>>>>>>>>> really
>>>>>>>>>>>     reflecting how the system would respond to an alternative
>>>>>>>>>>>     request.
>>>>>>>>>>>     Now if someone from organized rehab said, okay freedom
>>>>>>>>>>>     scientific, we
>>>>>>>>>>>   are
>>>>>>>>>>>     creating an employment program where our clients will train
>>>>>>>>>>> in
>>>>>>>>>>>     Linux,
>>>>>>>>>>>     needing a solid screen reader solution for the system.  We
>>>>>>>>>>> will
>>>>>>>>>>>     give you
>>>>>>>>>>>     an
>>>>>>>>>>>     exclusive development contract for s millions to create the
>>>>>>>>>>> tool.
>>>>>>>>>>>     Fs would likely say where do we sign?
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>     On Sat, 13 Aug 2022, K0LNY_Glenn wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>     True enough, but largely, rehab people typically use Windows
>>>>>>>>>>>> at
>>>>>>>>>>>>     work,
>>>>>>>>>>>>     and
>>>>>>>>>>>>     probably at home, but they need to cater to the needs of the
>>>>>>>>>>>>     client.
>>>>>>>>>>>>     If a client used Linux, I doubt that any rehab counselor
>>>>>>>>>>>> would
>>>>>>>>>>>>   advocate
>>>>>>>>>>>>     that
>>>>>>>>>>>>     the client switch to Windows, unless that was needed for a
>>>>>>>>>>>>     specific
>>>>>>>>>>>>   job.
>>>>>>>>>>>>     In Nebraska, we purchased Jaws much more for personal use
>>>>>>>>>>>> than
>>>>>>>>>>>>     we did
>>>>>>>>>>>>     for
>>>>>>>>>>>>     work related situations.
>>>>>>>>>>>>     So if FS made a JFL, and people were using Linux, rehab
>>>>>>>>>>>> would
>>>>>>>>>>>>     indeed
>>>>>>>>>>>>     purchase a JFL product.
>>>>>>>>>>>>     Glenn
>>>>>>>>>>>>     ----- Original Message -----
>>>>>>>>>>>>     From: "Karen Lewellen" <klewellen at shellworld.net>
>>>>>>>>>>>>     To: "K0LNY_Glenn" <glenn at ervin.email>
>>>>>>>>>>>>     Cc: <speakup at linux-speakup.org>; "Milan Zamazal"
>>>>>>>>>>>>     <pdm at zamazal.org>;
>>>>>>>>>>>>     <Blinux-list at redhat.com>
>>>>>>>>>>>>     Sent: Saturday, August 13, 2022 3:01 PM
>>>>>>>>>>>>     Subject: Re: "Accessibility in Fedora Workstation" (fwd)
>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>     there was an interesting discussion a month or so back on
>>>>>>>>>>>> the
>>>>>>>>>>>>     blinux
>>>>>>>>>>>>     list
>>>>>>>>>>>>     about how long it took completing tasks in the gui as
>>>>>>>>>>>> apposed
>>>>>>>>>>>>     to say
>>>>>>>>>>>>     command line,  the comments were quite informative.
>>>>>>>>>>>>     Still, fs has never marketed largely to the end user.
>>>>>>>>>>>> Instead
>>>>>>>>>>>>     they
>>>>>>>>>>>>     market
>>>>>>>>>>>>     to the American rehab community.
>>>>>>>>>>>>     how much market research has  the rehab community done to
>>>>>>>>>>>>     support the
>>>>>>>>>>>>     need
>>>>>>>>>>>>     for choices?
>>>>>>>>>>>>     How many rehab counselors support  training in Linux?
>>>>>>>>>>>>     one comment made by the subject of this thread about poor
>>>>>>>>>>>>     quality
>>>>>>>>>>>>   speech
>>>>>>>>>>>>     is a fine one...out of the box Linux has few speech choices.
>>>>>>>>>>>>     everyone
>>>>>>>>>>>>     brings their needs to the table there.
>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>     if you want to get fs to care about Linux, you  need to
>>>>>>>>>>>> prove
>>>>>>>>>>>>     there is
>>>>>>>>>>>>     money for  them there, from their main source of income.
>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>     On Sat, 13 Aug 2022, K0LNY_Glenn wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>     Well since Orca seems to work on so many distros, I don't
>>>>>>>>>>>>>   know why
>>>>>>>>>>>>>   FS
>>>>>>>>>>>>>     would
>>>>>>>>>>>>>     not be able to do the same.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>     If Jaws users could switch into Linux, it would be a real
>>>>>>>>>>>>>     game
>>>>>>>>>>>>>     changer,
>>>>>>>>>>>>>     and
>>>>>>>>>>>>>     I think with lots more Blind Linux users, we would start
>>>>>>>>>>>>>     seeing
>>>>>>>>>>>>>     accessibility in Linux not being a second thought.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>     Glenn
>>>>>>>>>>>>>     ----- Original Message -----
>>>>>>>>>>>>>     From: "Karen Lewellen" <klewellen at shellworld.net>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>     To: "K0LNY_Glenn" <glenn at ervin.email>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>     Cc: <speakup at linux-speakup.org>; "Milan Zamazal"
>>>>>>>>>>>>>     <pdm at zamazal.org>;
>>>>>>>>>>>>>     <Blinux-list at redhat.com>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>     Sent: Saturday, August 13, 2022 1:47 PM
>>>>>>>>>>>>>     Subject: Re: "Accessibility in Fedora Workstation" (fwd)
>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>     Well technically freedom scientific does not exist any
>>>>>>>>>>>>>     longer, being
>>>>>>>>>>>>>     bought
>>>>>>>>>>>>>     by another company.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>     Still, I can respect why they, or nvda have not created
>>>>>>>>>>>>> their
>>>>>>>>>>>>>     tools
>>>>>>>>>>>>>     for
>>>>>>>>>>>>>     Linux.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>     That is because as I understand it, Linux is  quite like
>>>>>>>>>>>>>     clay. You
>>>>>>>>>>>>>   can
>>>>>>>>>>>>>     mold a distribution into almost anything. there are various
>>>>>>>>>>>>>     personifications of the system, all sorts of ways and
>>>>>>>>>>>>> changes
>>>>>>>>>>>>>     and
>>>>>>>>>>>>>     options
>>>>>>>>>>>>>     for creativity.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>     however adaptive tools are often extensions of physical
>>>>>>>>>>>>>     characteristics,
>>>>>>>>>>>>>     hands, eyes, ears, brains, combinations of these.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>     To build solid assistive tools one must have a solid
>>>>>>>>>>>>>     foundation as
>>>>>>>>>>>>>   it
>>>>>>>>>>>>>     were.  that is part of why there have needed to be so few
>>>>>>>>>>>>>     Apple
>>>>>>>>>>>>>     efforts
>>>>>>>>>>>>>     at
>>>>>>>>>>>>>     inclusion, they  created  with, and then created in-house
>>>>>>>>>>>>>     adaptive
>>>>>>>>>>>>>     tools
>>>>>>>>>>>>>     for various  populations that were built into the system.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>     Although Microsoft did not bother until much later, in
>>>>>>>>>>>>> theory
>>>>>>>>>>>>>     at
>>>>>>>>>>>>>     least,
>>>>>>>>>>>>>     the
>>>>>>>>>>>>>     consistency of windows is what makes it possible for
>>>>>>>>>>>>> freedom
>>>>>>>>>>>>>     or the
>>>>>>>>>>>>>     former
>>>>>>>>>>>>>     gw  micro or nvda to create something that can in theory
>>>>>>>>>>>>>     work.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>     Floor for the furniture is somewhat solid.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>     Just my thoughts,
>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>     On Sat, 13 Aug 2022, K0LNY_Glenn wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>     I would like to see Freedom Scientific make a Jaws For
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>     Linux.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>     JFL
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>     I'd certainly pay the yearly rental fee for it, and it
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>     would bring
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>     many
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>     more
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>     users into Linux.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>     FS could, with its resources, possibly make it more
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> robust
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>     than
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>     Orca.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>     Glenn
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>     ----- Original Message -----
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>     From: "Milan Zamazal" <pdm at zamazal.org>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>     To: <speakup at linux-speakup.org>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>     Cc: <Blinux-list at redhat.com>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>     Sent: Saturday, August 13, 2022 12:08 PM
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>     Subject: Re: "Accessibility in Fedora Workstation" (fwd)
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>     "KL" == Karen Lewellen
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> <klewellen at shellworld.net>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>   writes:
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>   KL>  What bothers me most are his lack of actual
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>   qualifications,
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>   and
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> KL>    absolute dismissal of what he has not experienced..as
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> if
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> KL>    he
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> KL>    defines Linux usage for everyone.  That attitude is
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> KL>    dangerous,
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> KL>    because he is educating those outside of the
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> KL>    accessibility
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> KL>    experiences, who will believe his ignorance is
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> factual.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> KL>    he
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>   has
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>   KL>  to be expert, it is his job.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>     Hi Karen,
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>     I know Lukas personally and I admire his skills and
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>   qualifications.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>     I
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>     also know first hand that he is open to constructive
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>     feedback and
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>   I
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>     believe he???Td be happy to be corrected about possible
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>     technical
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>     inaccuracies in the interview.  It may be also a good
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>     opportunity
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>   to
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>     find out what???Ts possibly missing in making anybody
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>     better
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>     informed.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>     As for ???oabsolute dismissal of what he has not
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>   experienced?????,
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>   what
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>     reasonable free software alternatives to a less or more
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>     standard
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>     desktop
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>     with Orca and a software synthesizer can you see for a
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>     common
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>   blind
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>     user
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>     who needs to use a fully working web browser, to read and
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>     process
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>     text
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>     documents, to be compatible with other computer users,
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>     etc.?
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>     And let???Ts be realistic.  We celebrate every single
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>   developer
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>   hired
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>     to
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>     improve accessibility.  This tells something about the
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>     state of
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>   the
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>     matters.  We cannot expect that a single person will fix
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>     all the
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>     kinds
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>     of accessibility problems in all the environments.  Lukas
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>     works at
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>     his
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>     job focusing on certain areas currently seen there as
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>     urgent ones
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>     and I
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>     appreciate this opportunity.  Anybody else seeing a need
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> to
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>     work
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>   on
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>     other areas is welcome to contribute to whatever sees
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> fit,
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>   as I
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>   do.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>     Regards,
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>     Milan
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>
>>>
>>
>>
>>
>
>

"Accessibility in Fedora Workstation" (fwd)

[blinux-list]

Might I ask what the firetruck this has to do w/Linux accessibility, &
why this branch of the discussion is allowed to persist, except, of
course, for the fact there's no moderator.

Come on, yall--this is normally a productive list--it's now nothing
more than a dumpster fire. Can yall *please* QUIT!

On 8/17/22, Linux for blind general discussion <blinux-list at redhat.com> wrote:
> Glen,
> I have no reason to  follow up on anything.  The role of a commission, and
> the duty of a rehab system employee are  two different things.
> that you state you work for a  nfb philosophy rehab office speaks volumes
> for your integrity.
> clearly your staff simply tell this commission what they want to hear, or
> they exist in name only.
> nothing changes your description of your state.
>
>
>
> On Wed, 17 Aug 2022, K0LNY_Glenn wrote:
>
>> I knew you wouldn't follow up on it, they would just laugh at you.
>> Glenn
>> ----- Original Message -----
>> From: "Karen Lewellen" <klewellen at shellworld.net>
>> To: "K0LNY_Glenn" <glenn at ervin.email>
>> Cc: "Butch Bussen" <butchb at shellworld.net>; "John G. Heim"
>> <jheim at wisc.edu>;
>> <speakup at linux-speakup.org>; "Milan Zamazal" <pdm at zamazal.org>;
>> <Blinux-list at redhat.com>
>> Sent: Wednesday, August 17, 2022 4:48 PM
>> Subject: Re: "Accessibility in Fedora Workstation" (fwd)
>>
>>
>> Glen,
>> why would I bother?
>> your own words as a seasoned employee speak for themselves.
>> Nebraska is an NFB philosophy state.
>> Were you  here in Ontario, that  could be a human rights violation, since
>> here the code establishes that claiming everyone sharing a label
>> accommodates the same is a violation of the individual's human rights.
>> No wonder the state of new York supported my professional move, if rehab
>> systems like yours are Nfb puppets.
>> The commission is not the individual rehab staffer, who  states he makes
>> decisions using a NFB dictionary.
>>
>>
>>
>> On Wed, 17 Aug 2022, K0LNY_Glenn wrote:
>>
>>> Karen,
>>> Start out at the web site for
>>> Nebraska Commission for the Blind.
>>> There are links to communicate with all the board members, who are
>>> appointed
>>> by the governor.
>>> Glenn
>>> ----- Original Message -----
>>> From: "Karen Lewellen" <klewellen at shellworld.net>
>>> To: "K0LNY_Glenn" <glenn at ervin.email>
>>> Cc: "Butch Bussen" <butchb at shellworld.net>; "John G. Heim"
>>> <jheim at wisc.edu>;
>>> <speakup at linux-speakup.org>; "Milan Zamazal" <pdm at zamazal.org>;
>>> <Blinux-list at redhat.com>
>>> Sent: Wednesday, August 17, 2022 4:24 PM
>>> Subject: Re: "Accessibility in Fedora Workstation" (fwd)
>>>
>>>
>>> Do what?
>>> where I am it is actually a violation of vendor contract to tell someone
>>> they must use a certain tool.
>>> give them the chance in an office to try several things yes.
>>> Force jaws down their throat like rehab does no.
>>> I said I wished I knew someone in Nebraska media not that I
>>> did...although
>>> perhaps.
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> On Wed, 17 Aug 2022, K0LNY_Glenn wrote:
>>>
>>>> Please do.
>>>>
>>>> ----- Original Message -----
>>>> From: "Karen Lewellen" <klewellen at shellworld.net>
>>>> To: "K0LNY_Glenn" <glenn at ervin.email>
>>>> Cc: "Butch Bussen" <butchb at shellworld.net>; "John G. Heim"
>>>> <jheim at wisc.edu>;
>>>> <speakup at linux-speakup.org>; "Milan Zamazal" <pdm at zamazal.org>;
>>>> <Blinux-list at redhat.com>
>>>> Sent: Wednesday, August 17, 2022 3:46 PM
>>>> Subject: Re: "Accessibility in Fedora Workstation" (fwd)
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> Glen,
>>>> you are missing the point.
>>>> A commission board, at least if constructed  with integrity serves as a
>>>> watchdog for your organization's activities.
>>>> Making sure that you act, objectively, and above influence with
>>>> government
>>>> funding.
>>>> That role differs from a public servant, like yourself.
>>>> In fact that the commission  has members from both organizations is
>>>> exactly why you should not be a member.
>>>> if, as you said, the state has an Nfb philosophy, I wonder  just how
>>>> above
>>>> influence  that commission actually is, lip service attendance does not
>>>> translate  to the statement you freely made.
>>>> Honestly, i wish I knew someone with Nebraska public radio.  there is a
>>>> investigative, data journalism piece right here, exploring how
>>>> objective
>>>> your  office is in fact.
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> On Wed, 17 Aug 2022, K0LNY_Glenn wrote:
>>>>
>>>>> Karen,
>>>>> In Nebraska, the commission board attends both consumer groups' state
>>>>> conventions.
>>>>> So there is total transparency within the consumer groups.
>>>>> The agency sends clients to both conventions for educational purposes.
>>>>> Some can go to either national convention on the state.
>>>>> Glenn
>>>>> ----- Original Message -----
>>>>> From: "Karen Lewellen" <klewellen at shellworld.net>
>>>>> To: "K0LNY_Glenn" <glenn at ervin.email>
>>>>> Cc: "Butch Bussen" <butchb at shellworld.net>; "John G. Heim"
>>>>> <jheim at wisc.edu>;
>>>>> <speakup at linux-speakup.org>; "Milan Zamazal" <pdm at zamazal.org>;
>>>>> <Blinux-list at redhat.com>
>>>>> Sent: Wednesday, August 17, 2022 2:06 PM
>>>>> Subject: Re: "Accessibility in Fedora Workstation" (fwd)
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> wrong.
>>>>> Your first duty is to those clients  You serve.  as illustrated here
>>>>> the
>>>>> Nfb
>>>>> used their ability to reach insiders to influence policy to the
>>>>> detriment
>>>>> of the broader community...same can clearly be said for freedom
>>>>> scientific.
>>>>> That you stated clearly that your  rehab system runs on an nfb
>>>>> philosophy
>>>>> illustrates my point perfectly.
>>>>> There are countless legal terms for  such conflicts of interest, I
>>>>> dare
>>>>> say if you were serving any other clientele your government watchdog
>>>>> would
>>>>> put  a stop  to the practice.
>>>>> allows the organization to have undue almost antitrust influence on
>>>>> people's lives.
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> On Wed, 17 Aug 2022, K0LNY_Glenn wrote:
>>>>>
>>>>>> I don't think so, we are people first, and being a government
>>>>>> employee
>>>>>> should not preclude personal rights.
>>>>>> Besides, I attended the conventions for CEU credits, but I never
>>>>>> joined
>>>>>> with
>>>>>> dues.
>>>>>> Glenn
>>>>>> ----- Original Message -----
>>>>>> From: "Karen Lewellen" <klewellen at shellworld.net>
>>>>>> To: "K0LNY_Glenn" <glenn at ervin.email>
>>>>>> Cc: "Butch Bussen" <butchb at shellworld.net>; "John G. Heim"
>>>>>> <jheim at wisc.edu>;
>>>>>> <speakup at linux-speakup.org>; "Milan Zamazal" <pdm at zamazal.org>;
>>>>>> <Blinux-list at redhat.com>
>>>>>> Sent: Wednesday, August 17, 2022 11:36 AM
>>>>>> Subject: Re: "Accessibility in Fedora Workstation" (fwd)
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>> speaking personally?
>>>>>> No government employee should be a member of the NfB.   ethical
>>>>>> conflict
>>>>>> of interest personified.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Karen
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>> On Wed, 17 Aug 2022, K0LNY_Glenn wrote:
>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Yeah, I had been to a state NFBN convention that year and did the
>>>>>>> PAC
>>>>>>> thing.
>>>>>>> Then when the NFB did that, I called up the state treasurer for the
>>>>>>> NFBN
>>>>>>> and
>>>>>>> cancelled my PAC plan.
>>>>>>> I told them that they don't care if I can read my money, then they
>>>>>>> don't
>>>>>>> need any from me.
>>>>>>> Glenn
>>>>>>> ----- Original Message -----
>>>>>>> From: "Karen Lewellen" <klewellen at shellworld.net>
>>>>>>> To: "Butch Bussen" <butchb at shellworld.net>
>>>>>>> Cc: "John G. Heim" <jheim at wisc.edu>; "K0LNY_Glenn"
>>>>>>> <glenn at ervin.email>;
>>>>>>> <speakup at linux-speakup.org>; "Milan Zamazal" <pdm at zamazal.org>;
>>>>>>> <Blinux-list at redhat.com>
>>>>>>> Sent: Wednesday, August 17, 2022 11:18 AM
>>>>>>> Subject: Re: "Accessibility in Fedora Workstation" (fwd)
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> My personal favorite is the rejection of money that could be
>>>>>>> identified
>>>>>>> by touch.  never mind that for honestly thousands of years the
>>>>>>> practice
>>>>>>> has
>>>>>>> been common so those with limited education could still engage in
>>>>>>> commerce.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> On Wed, 17 Aug 2022, Butch Bussen wrote:
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> Yes, I remember that.  And what about their oposition to
>>>>>>>> descriptive
>>>>>>>> video,
>>>>>>>> even filed a law sute to get the law thrown out, which it was at
>>>>>>>> that
>>>>>>>> time.
>>>>>>>> 73
>>>>>>>> Butch
>>>>>>>> WA0VJR
>>>>>>>> Node 3148
>>>>>>>> Wallace, ks.
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> On Tue, 16 Aug 2022, John G. Heim wrote:
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>  Holy cow! Are you aware that the NFB once asked Microsoft to
>>>>>>>>> *NOT*
>>>>>>>>> improve
>>>>>>>>>  Narrator to the point where it would compete with Jaws? If you
>>>>>>>>> think
>>>>>>>>> the
>>>>>>>>>  NFB is incapable of forcing choices on people, you are very sadly
>>>>>>>>>  mistaken.
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>  On 8/16/22 09:36, K0LNY_Glenn wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>   This sort of thing would never happen in Nebraska, or any state
>>>>>>>>>> where
>>>>>>>>>>   the
>>>>>>>>>>   agency staff is of the NFB philosophy.
>>>>>>>>>>   Say what you want about the NFB, no organization is without its
>>>>>>>>>>   problems,
>>>>>>>>>>   but it is the core philosophy that formed the NFB that knows
>>>>>>>>>> that
>>>>>>>>>>   society
>>>>>>>>>>   has low expectations of the Blind, and this is why the NFB
>>>>>>>>>> believes
>>>>>>>>>> in
>>>>>>>>>>   skills and high expectations.
>>>>>>>>>>   And with that, comes giving respect to the Blind, like the
>>>>>>>>>> respect
>>>>>>>>>> of
>>>>>>>>>>   choice.
>>>>>>>>>>   Yeah I know about the information of recent about NFB abuse,
>>>>>>>>>> but
>>>>>>>>>> this
>>>>>>>>>>   is
>>>>>>>>>>   organizational issues, unrelated to the philosophy.  In fact,
>>>>>>>>>> the
>>>>>>>>>> fact
>>>>>>>>>>   that
>>>>>>>>>>   it has come up demonstrates that the NFB is no different than
>>>>>>>>>> any
>>>>>>>>>> other
>>>>>>>>>>   organization in interpersonal staff issues.
>>>>>>>>>>   And choice does not mean training center choices.
>>>>>>>>>>   Choice isn't always an option, just like if you took a
>>>>>>>>>> vocational
>>>>>>>>>>   course
>>>>>>>>>>   in
>>>>>>>>>>   college, there are things you have to take, so to me, the lack
>>>>>>>>>> of
>>>>>>>>>>   choice
>>>>>>>>>>   in
>>>>>>>>>>   this regard is different than computer software, where all the
>>>>>>>>>> choices
>>>>>>>>>>   will
>>>>>>>>>>   reach the same end result.
>>>>>>>>>>   In states where the NFB philosophy is embraced, if a client
>>>>>>>>>> said
>>>>>>>>>> I
>>>>>>>>>> want
>>>>>>>>>>   to
>>>>>>>>>>   use a Mac, or I want Window Eyes, then that is what they would
>>>>>>>>>> get,
>>>>>>>>>> no
>>>>>>>>>>   questions asked.
>>>>>>>>>>   They would not have to fight to get it.
>>>>>>>>>>   I simply cannot imagine a counselor saying that someone has to
>>>>>>>>>> use
>>>>>>>>>> the
>>>>>>>>>>   software that the counselor wants them to have.
>>>>>>>>>>   When I hear that stuff, I almost cannot believe it, but I know
>>>>>>>>>> Butch
>>>>>>>>>>   well
>>>>>>>>>>   enough to know he wouldn't make that up.
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>   Glenn
>>>>>>>>>>   ----- Original Message -----
>>>>>>>>>>   From: "Butch Bussen" <butchb at shellworld.net>
>>>>>>>>>>   To: "Karen Lewellen" <klewellen at shellworld.net>
>>>>>>>>>>   Cc: "K0LNY_Glenn" <glenn at ervin.email>;
>>>>>>>>>> <speakup at linux-speakup.org>;
>>>>>>>>>>   "Milan
>>>>>>>>>>   Zamazal" <pdm at zamazal.org>; <Blinux-list at redhat.com>
>>>>>>>>>>   Sent: Tuesday, August 16, 2022 8:18 AM
>>>>>>>>>>   Subject: Re: "Accessibility in Fedora Workstation" (fwd)
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>   You are right.  In Nevada, freedom pushed jaws to the rehab
>>>>>>>>>> people
>>>>>>>>>> and
>>>>>>>>>>   took them out for steak diners and so forth.  I fought like
>>>>>>>>>> hell
>>>>>>>>>> to
>>>>>>>>>> get
>>>>>>>>>>   them to buy window-eyes.
>>>>>>>>>>   73
>>>>>>>>>>   Butch
>>>>>>>>>>   WA0VJR
>>>>>>>>>>   Node 3148
>>>>>>>>>>   Wallace, ks.
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>   On Sun, 14 Aug 2022, Karen Lewellen wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>   And where do these employers learn about jaws?
>>>>>>>>>>>   In fact, provide if you do not mind an example of how  this
>>>>>>>>>>> works
>>>>>>>>>>>   exactly.
>>>>>>>>>>>   after all, unless I am incorrect, these employers are not
>>>>>>>>>>> personal
>>>>>>>>>>>   Jaws
>>>>>>>>>>>   users, meaning someone they trust continues to sell them on an
>>>>>>>>>>>   expensive
>>>>>>>>>>>   program instead of a largely free one.
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>   On Sat, 13 Aug 2022, K0LNY_Glenn wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>     Karen,
>>>>>>>>>>>>     Most employers don't want NVDA, and will only allow Jaws.
>>>>>>>>>>>>     In Nebraska, if an employer said put on whatever works, the
>>>>>>>>>>>>     counselors
>>>>>>>>>>>>     will
>>>>>>>>>>>>     use NVDA, because of the cost of Jaws.
>>>>>>>>>>>>     If some of the clients in a call center already use Jaws,
>>>>>>>>>>>> but
>>>>>>>>>>>>     don't know
>>>>>>>>>>>>     NVDA, the counselor will use Jaws, because the other
>>>>>>>>>>>> clients
>>>>>>>>>>>> will
>>>>>>>>>>>>     need
>>>>>>>>>>>>   to
>>>>>>>>>>>>     learn one of the two.
>>>>>>>>>>>>     So it's all choice, but in the workplace, it depends on
>>>>>>>>>>>> what
>>>>>>>>>>>> the
>>>>>>>>>>>>   employer
>>>>>>>>>>>>     will allow.
>>>>>>>>>>>>     Also, sometimes scripts need to be made, and there are more
>>>>>>>>>>>> Jaws
>>>>>>>>>>>>   scripters
>>>>>>>>>>>>     available than there are NVDA add-on writers.
>>>>>>>>>>>>     So this perception that Jaws is forced by rehab, from my 31
>>>>>>>>>>>> years
>>>>>>>>>>>>     in the
>>>>>>>>>>>>     business I can say is rubbish.
>>>>>>>>>>>>     Now, if a counselor did not know how to use NVDA, and
>>>>>>>>>>>> either
>>>>>>>>>>>> may
>>>>>>>>>>>>     be
>>>>>>>>>>>>     chosen,
>>>>>>>>>>>>     the rehab counselor is able to select the one that the
>>>>>>>>>>>> counselor
>>>>>>>>>>>>     feels
>>>>>>>>>>>>   is
>>>>>>>>>>>>     best for the student and for the counselor's teaching.
>>>>>>>>>>>>     When it comes to part B moneys, which is used for
>>>>>>>>>>>> non-vocational
>>>>>>>>>>>>     purchases,
>>>>>>>>>>>>     where a lot of Jaws purchases come from, it is in the
>>>>>>>>>>>> agency's
>>>>>>>>>>>>     best
>>>>>>>>>>>>     interest
>>>>>>>>>>>>     to spend as little as possible, because that doesn't come
>>>>>>>>>>>> back
>>>>>>>>>>>>     like VR
>>>>>>>>>>>>     expenditures do.
>>>>>>>>>>>>     Glenn
>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>     ----- Original Message -----
>>>>>>>>>>>>     From: "Karen Lewellen" <klewellen at shellworld.net>
>>>>>>>>>>>>     To: "K0LNY_Glenn" <glenn at ervin.email>
>>>>>>>>>>>>     Cc: <speakup at linux-speakup.org>; "Milan Zamazal"
>>>>>>>>>>>>     <pdm at zamazal.org>;
>>>>>>>>>>>>     <Blinux-list at redhat.com>
>>>>>>>>>>>>     Sent: Saturday, August 13, 2022 6:15 PM
>>>>>>>>>>>>     Subject: Re: "Accessibility in Fedora Workstation" (fwd)
>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>     The challenge with that example is that, as one often gets
>>>>>>>>>>>>   reminded,
>>>>>>>>>>>>   the
>>>>>>>>>>>>     rehab systems track record for facilitating  employment for
>>>>>>>>>>>> their
>>>>>>>>>>>>   clients
>>>>>>>>>>>>     is quite poor.
>>>>>>>>>>>>     With a high percentage of unemployment among our clients.
>>>>>>>>>>>>     Making,
>>>>>>>>>>>>     speaking personally, your buying Jaws for personal use not
>>>>>>>>>>>> really
>>>>>>>>>>>>     reflecting how the system would respond to an alternative
>>>>>>>>>>>>     request.
>>>>>>>>>>>>     Now if someone from organized rehab said, okay freedom
>>>>>>>>>>>>     scientific, we
>>>>>>>>>>>>   are
>>>>>>>>>>>>     creating an employment program where our clients will train
>>>>>>>>>>>> in
>>>>>>>>>>>>     Linux,
>>>>>>>>>>>>     needing a solid screen reader solution for the system.  We
>>>>>>>>>>>> will
>>>>>>>>>>>>     give you
>>>>>>>>>>>>     an
>>>>>>>>>>>>     exclusive development contract for s millions to create the
>>>>>>>>>>>> tool.
>>>>>>>>>>>>     Fs would likely say where do we sign?
>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>     On Sat, 13 Aug 2022, K0LNY_Glenn wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>     True enough, but largely, rehab people typically use
>>>>>>>>>>>>> Windows
>>>>>>>>>>>>> at
>>>>>>>>>>>>>     work,
>>>>>>>>>>>>>     and
>>>>>>>>>>>>>     probably at home, but they need to cater to the needs of
>>>>>>>>>>>>> the
>>>>>>>>>>>>>     client.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>     If a client used Linux, I doubt that any rehab counselor
>>>>>>>>>>>>> would
>>>>>>>>>>>>>   advocate
>>>>>>>>>>>>>     that
>>>>>>>>>>>>>     the client switch to Windows, unless that was needed for a
>>>>>>>>>>>>>     specific
>>>>>>>>>>>>>   job.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>     In Nebraska, we purchased Jaws much more for personal use
>>>>>>>>>>>>> than
>>>>>>>>>>>>>     we did
>>>>>>>>>>>>>     for
>>>>>>>>>>>>>     work related situations.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>     So if FS made a JFL, and people were using Linux, rehab
>>>>>>>>>>>>> would
>>>>>>>>>>>>>     indeed
>>>>>>>>>>>>>     purchase a JFL product.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>     Glenn
>>>>>>>>>>>>>     ----- Original Message -----
>>>>>>>>>>>>>     From: "Karen Lewellen" <klewellen at shellworld.net>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>     To: "K0LNY_Glenn" <glenn at ervin.email>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>     Cc: <speakup at linux-speakup.org>; "Milan Zamazal"
>>>>>>>>>>>>>     <pdm at zamazal.org>;
>>>>>>>>>>>>>     <Blinux-list at redhat.com>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>     Sent: Saturday, August 13, 2022 3:01 PM
>>>>>>>>>>>>>     Subject: Re: "Accessibility in Fedora Workstation" (fwd)
>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>     there was an interesting discussion a month or so back on
>>>>>>>>>>>>> the
>>>>>>>>>>>>>     blinux
>>>>>>>>>>>>>     list
>>>>>>>>>>>>>     about how long it took completing tasks in the gui as
>>>>>>>>>>>>> apposed
>>>>>>>>>>>>>     to say
>>>>>>>>>>>>>     command line,  the comments were quite informative.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>     Still, fs has never marketed largely to the end user.
>>>>>>>>>>>>> Instead
>>>>>>>>>>>>>     they
>>>>>>>>>>>>>     market
>>>>>>>>>>>>>     to the American rehab community.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>     how much market research has  the rehab community done to
>>>>>>>>>>>>>     support the
>>>>>>>>>>>>>     need
>>>>>>>>>>>>>     for choices?
>>>>>>>>>>>>>     How many rehab counselors support  training in Linux?
>>>>>>>>>>>>>     one comment made by the subject of this thread about poor
>>>>>>>>>>>>>     quality
>>>>>>>>>>>>>   speech
>>>>>>>>>>>>>     is a fine one...out of the box Linux has few speech
>>>>>>>>>>>>> choices.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>     everyone
>>>>>>>>>>>>>     brings their needs to the table there.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>     if you want to get fs to care about Linux, you  need to
>>>>>>>>>>>>> prove
>>>>>>>>>>>>>     there is
>>>>>>>>>>>>>     money for  them there, from their main source of income.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>     On Sat, 13 Aug 2022, K0LNY_Glenn wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>     Well since Orca seems to work on so many distros, I don't
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>   know why
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>   FS
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>     would
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>     not be able to do the same.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>     If Jaws users could switch into Linux, it would be a real
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>     game
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>     changer,
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>     and
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>     I think with lots more Blind Linux users, we would start
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>     seeing
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>     accessibility in Linux not being a second thought.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>     Glenn
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>     ----- Original Message -----
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>     From: "Karen Lewellen" <klewellen at shellworld.net>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>     To: "K0LNY_Glenn" <glenn at ervin.email>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>     Cc: <speakup at linux-speakup.org>; "Milan Zamazal"
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>     <pdm at zamazal.org>;
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>     <Blinux-list at redhat.com>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>     Sent: Saturday, August 13, 2022 1:47 PM
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>     Subject: Re: "Accessibility in Fedora Workstation" (fwd)
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>     Well technically freedom scientific does not exist any
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>     longer, being
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>     bought
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>     by another company.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>     Still, I can respect why they, or nvda have not created
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> their
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>     tools
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>     for
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>     Linux.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>     That is because as I understand it, Linux is  quite like
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>     clay. You
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>   can
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>     mold a distribution into almost anything. there are
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> various
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>     personifications of the system, all sorts of ways and
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> changes
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>     and
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>     options
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>     for creativity.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>     however adaptive tools are often extensions of physical
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>     characteristics,
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>     hands, eyes, ears, brains, combinations of these.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>     To build solid assistive tools one must have a solid
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>     foundation as
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>   it
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>     were.  that is part of why there have needed to be so few
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>     Apple
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>     efforts
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>     at
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>     inclusion, they  created  with, and then created in-house
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>     adaptive
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>     tools
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>     for various  populations that were built into the system.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>     Although Microsoft did not bother until much later, in
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> theory
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>     at
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>     least,
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>     the
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>     consistency of windows is what makes it possible for
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> freedom
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>     or the
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>     former
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>     gw  micro or nvda to create something that can in theory
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>     work.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>     Floor for the furniture is somewhat solid.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>     Just my thoughts,
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>     On Sat, 13 Aug 2022, K0LNY_Glenn wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>     I would like to see Freedom Scientific make a Jaws For
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>     Linux.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>     JFL
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>     I'd certainly pay the yearly rental fee for it, and it
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>     would bring
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>     many
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>     more
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>     users into Linux.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>     FS could, with its resources, possibly make it more
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> robust
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>     than
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>     Orca.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>     Glenn
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>     ----- Original Message -----
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>     From: "Milan Zamazal" <pdm at zamazal.org>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>     To: <speakup at linux-speakup.org>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>     Cc: <Blinux-list at redhat.com>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>     Sent: Saturday, August 13, 2022 12:08 PM
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>     Subject: Re: "Accessibility in Fedora Workstation" (fwd)
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>     "KL" == Karen Lewellen
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> <klewellen at shellworld.net>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>   writes:
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>   KL>  What bothers me most are his lack of actual
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>   qualifications,
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>   and
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> KL>    absolute dismissal of what he has not experienced..as
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> if
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> KL>    he
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> KL>    defines Linux usage for everyone.  That attitude is
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> KL>    dangerous,
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> KL>    because he is educating those outside of the
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> KL>    accessibility
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> KL>    experiences, who will believe his ignorance is
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> factual.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> KL>    he
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>   has
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>   KL>  to be expert, it is his job.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>     Hi Karen,
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>     I know Lukas personally and I admire his skills and
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>   qualifications.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>     I
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>     also know first hand that he is open to constructive
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>     feedback and
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>   I
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>     believe he???Td be happy to be corrected about possible
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>     technical
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>     inaccuracies in the interview.  It may be also a good
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>     opportunity
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>   to
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>     find out what???Ts possibly missing in making anybody
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>     better
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>     informed.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>     As for ???oabsolute dismissal of what he has not
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>   experienced?????,
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>   what
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>     reasonable free software alternatives to a less or more
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>     standard
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>     desktop
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>     with Orca and a software synthesizer can you see for a
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>     common
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>   blind
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>     user
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>     who needs to use a fully working web browser, to read
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> and
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>     process
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>     text
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>     documents, to be compatible with other computer users,
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>     etc.?
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>     And let???Ts be realistic.  We celebrate every single
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>   developer
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>   hired
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>     to
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>     improve accessibility.  This tells something about the
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>     state of
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>   the
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>     matters.  We cannot expect that a single person will fix
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>     all the
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>     kinds
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>     of accessibility problems in all the environments.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Lukas
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>     works at
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>     his
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>     job focusing on certain areas currently seen there as
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>     urgent ones
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>     and I
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>     appreciate this opportunity.  Anybody else seeing a need
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> to
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>     work
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>   on
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>     other areas is welcome to contribute to whatever sees
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> fit,
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>   as I
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>   do.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>     Regards,
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>     Milan
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>
>>
> _______________________________________________
> Blinux-list mailing list
> Blinux-list at redhat.com
> https://listman.redhat.com/mailman/listinfo/blinux-list
>
>


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Jackie McBride

"Accessibility in Fedora Workstation" (fwd)

[blinux-list]

You are quite correct.
what began as a discussion on how Fedora is, and is not, actually 
addressing accessibility has dissolved into something entirely 
less productive.
I apologize for my part in that aspect.
Best,
Karen



On Wed, 17 Aug 2022, Linux for blind general discussion wrote:

> Might I ask what the firetruck this has to do w/Linux accessibility, &
> why this branch of the discussion is allowed to persist, except, of
> course, for the fact there's no moderator.
>
> Come on, yall--this is normally a productive list--it's now nothing
> more than a dumpster fire. Can yall *please* QUIT!
>
> On 8/17/22, Linux for blind general discussion <blinux-list at redhat.com> wrote:
>> Glen,
>> I have no reason to  follow up on anything.  The role of a commission, and
>> the duty of a rehab system employee are  two different things.
>> that you state you work for a  nfb philosophy rehab office speaks volumes
>> for your integrity.
>> clearly your staff simply tell this commission what they want to hear, or
>> they exist in name only.
>> nothing changes your description of your state.
>>
>>
>>
>> On Wed, 17 Aug 2022, K0LNY_Glenn wrote:
>>
>>> I knew you wouldn't follow up on it, they would just laugh at you.
>>> Glenn
>>> ----- Original Message -----
>>> From: "Karen Lewellen" <klewellen at shellworld.net>
>>> To: "K0LNY_Glenn" <glenn at ervin.email>
>>> Cc: "Butch Bussen" <butchb at shellworld.net>; "John G. Heim"
>>> <jheim at wisc.edu>;
>>> <speakup at linux-speakup.org>; "Milan Zamazal" <pdm at zamazal.org>;
>>> <Blinux-list at redhat.com>
>>> Sent: Wednesday, August 17, 2022 4:48 PM
>>> Subject: Re: "Accessibility in Fedora Workstation" (fwd)
>>>
>>>
>>> Glen,
>>> why would I bother?
>>> your own words as a seasoned employee speak for themselves.
>>> Nebraska is an NFB philosophy state.
>>> Were you  here in Ontario, that  could be a human rights violation, since
>>> here the code establishes that claiming everyone sharing a label
>>> accommodates the same is a violation of the individual's human rights.
>>> No wonder the state of new York supported my professional move, if rehab
>>> systems like yours are Nfb puppets.
>>> The commission is not the individual rehab staffer, who  states he makes
>>> decisions using a NFB dictionary.
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> On Wed, 17 Aug 2022, K0LNY_Glenn wrote:
>>>
>>>> Karen,
>>>> Start out at the web site for
>>>> Nebraska Commission for the Blind.
>>>> There are links to communicate with all the board members, who are
>>>> appointed
>>>> by the governor.
>>>> Glenn
>>>> ----- Original Message -----
>>>> From: "Karen Lewellen" <klewellen at shellworld.net>
>>>> To: "K0LNY_Glenn" <glenn at ervin.email>
>>>> Cc: "Butch Bussen" <butchb at shellworld.net>; "John G. Heim"
>>>> <jheim at wisc.edu>;
>>>> <speakup at linux-speakup.org>; "Milan Zamazal" <pdm at zamazal.org>;
>>>> <Blinux-list at redhat.com>
>>>> Sent: Wednesday, August 17, 2022 4:24 PM
>>>> Subject: Re: "Accessibility in Fedora Workstation" (fwd)
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> Do what?
>>>> where I am it is actually a violation of vendor contract to tell someone
>>>> they must use a certain tool.
>>>> give them the chance in an office to try several things yes.
>>>> Force jaws down their throat like rehab does no.
>>>> I said I wished I knew someone in Nebraska media not that I
>>>> did...although
>>>> perhaps.
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> On Wed, 17 Aug 2022, K0LNY_Glenn wrote:
>>>>
>>>>> Please do.
>>>>>
>>>>> ----- Original Message -----
>>>>> From: "Karen Lewellen" <klewellen at shellworld.net>
>>>>> To: "K0LNY_Glenn" <glenn at ervin.email>
>>>>> Cc: "Butch Bussen" <butchb at shellworld.net>; "John G. Heim"
>>>>> <jheim at wisc.edu>;
>>>>> <speakup at linux-speakup.org>; "Milan Zamazal" <pdm at zamazal.org>;
>>>>> <Blinux-list at redhat.com>
>>>>> Sent: Wednesday, August 17, 2022 3:46 PM
>>>>> Subject: Re: "Accessibility in Fedora Workstation" (fwd)
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> Glen,
>>>>> you are missing the point.
>>>>> A commission board, at least if constructed  with integrity serves as a
>>>>> watchdog for your organization's activities.
>>>>> Making sure that you act, objectively, and above influence with
>>>>> government
>>>>> funding.
>>>>> That role differs from a public servant, like yourself.
>>>>> In fact that the commission  has members from both organizations is
>>>>> exactly why you should not be a member.
>>>>> if, as you said, the state has an Nfb philosophy, I wonder  just how
>>>>> above
>>>>> influence  that commission actually is, lip service attendance does not
>>>>> translate  to the statement you freely made.
>>>>> Honestly, i wish I knew someone with Nebraska public radio.  there is a
>>>>> investigative, data journalism piece right here, exploring how
>>>>> objective
>>>>> your  office is in fact.
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> On Wed, 17 Aug 2022, K0LNY_Glenn wrote:
>>>>>
>>>>>> Karen,
>>>>>> In Nebraska, the commission board attends both consumer groups' state
>>>>>> conventions.
>>>>>> So there is total transparency within the consumer groups.
>>>>>> The agency sends clients to both conventions for educational purposes.
>>>>>> Some can go to either national convention on the state.
>>>>>> Glenn
>>>>>> ----- Original Message -----
>>>>>> From: "Karen Lewellen" <klewellen at shellworld.net>
>>>>>> To: "K0LNY_Glenn" <glenn at ervin.email>
>>>>>> Cc: "Butch Bussen" <butchb at shellworld.net>; "John G. Heim"
>>>>>> <jheim at wisc.edu>;
>>>>>> <speakup at linux-speakup.org>; "Milan Zamazal" <pdm at zamazal.org>;
>>>>>> <Blinux-list at redhat.com>
>>>>>> Sent: Wednesday, August 17, 2022 2:06 PM
>>>>>> Subject: Re: "Accessibility in Fedora Workstation" (fwd)
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>> wrong.
>>>>>> Your first duty is to those clients  You serve.  as illustrated here
>>>>>> the
>>>>>> Nfb
>>>>>> used their ability to reach insiders to influence policy to the
>>>>>> detriment
>>>>>> of the broader community...same can clearly be said for freedom
>>>>>> scientific.
>>>>>> That you stated clearly that your  rehab system runs on an nfb
>>>>>> philosophy
>>>>>> illustrates my point perfectly.
>>>>>> There are countless legal terms for  such conflicts of interest, I
>>>>>> dare
>>>>>> say if you were serving any other clientele your government watchdog
>>>>>> would
>>>>>> put  a stop  to the practice.
>>>>>> allows the organization to have undue almost antitrust influence on
>>>>>> people's lives.
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>> On Wed, 17 Aug 2022, K0LNY_Glenn wrote:
>>>>>>
>>>>>>> I don't think so, we are people first, and being a government
>>>>>>> employee
>>>>>>> should not preclude personal rights.
>>>>>>> Besides, I attended the conventions for CEU credits, but I never
>>>>>>> joined
>>>>>>> with
>>>>>>> dues.
>>>>>>> Glenn
>>>>>>> ----- Original Message -----
>>>>>>> From: "Karen Lewellen" <klewellen at shellworld.net>
>>>>>>> To: "K0LNY_Glenn" <glenn at ervin.email>
>>>>>>> Cc: "Butch Bussen" <butchb at shellworld.net>; "John G. Heim"
>>>>>>> <jheim at wisc.edu>;
>>>>>>> <speakup at linux-speakup.org>; "Milan Zamazal" <pdm at zamazal.org>;
>>>>>>> <Blinux-list at redhat.com>
>>>>>>> Sent: Wednesday, August 17, 2022 11:36 AM
>>>>>>> Subject: Re: "Accessibility in Fedora Workstation" (fwd)
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> speaking personally?
>>>>>>> No government employee should be a member of the NfB.   ethical
>>>>>>> conflict
>>>>>>> of interest personified.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Karen
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> On Wed, 17 Aug 2022, K0LNY_Glenn wrote:
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> Yeah, I had been to a state NFBN convention that year and did the
>>>>>>>> PAC
>>>>>>>> thing.
>>>>>>>> Then when the NFB did that, I called up the state treasurer for the
>>>>>>>> NFBN
>>>>>>>> and
>>>>>>>> cancelled my PAC plan.
>>>>>>>> I told them that they don't care if I can read my money, then they
>>>>>>>> don't
>>>>>>>> need any from me.
>>>>>>>> Glenn
>>>>>>>> ----- Original Message -----
>>>>>>>> From: "Karen Lewellen" <klewellen at shellworld.net>
>>>>>>>> To: "Butch Bussen" <butchb at shellworld.net>
>>>>>>>> Cc: "John G. Heim" <jheim at wisc.edu>; "K0LNY_Glenn"
>>>>>>>> <glenn at ervin.email>;
>>>>>>>> <speakup at linux-speakup.org>; "Milan Zamazal" <pdm at zamazal.org>;
>>>>>>>> <Blinux-list at redhat.com>
>>>>>>>> Sent: Wednesday, August 17, 2022 11:18 AM
>>>>>>>> Subject: Re: "Accessibility in Fedora Workstation" (fwd)
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> My personal favorite is the rejection of money that could be
>>>>>>>> identified
>>>>>>>> by touch.  never mind that for honestly thousands of years the
>>>>>>>> practice
>>>>>>>> has
>>>>>>>> been common so those with limited education could still engage in
>>>>>>>> commerce.
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> On Wed, 17 Aug 2022, Butch Bussen wrote:
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> Yes, I remember that.  And what about their oposition to
>>>>>>>>> descriptive
>>>>>>>>> video,
>>>>>>>>> even filed a law sute to get the law thrown out, which it was at
>>>>>>>>> that
>>>>>>>>> time.
>>>>>>>>> 73
>>>>>>>>> Butch
>>>>>>>>> WA0VJR
>>>>>>>>> Node 3148
>>>>>>>>> Wallace, ks.
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> On Tue, 16 Aug 2022, John G. Heim wrote:
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>  Holy cow! Are you aware that the NFB once asked Microsoft to
>>>>>>>>>> *NOT*
>>>>>>>>>> improve
>>>>>>>>>>  Narrator to the point where it would compete with Jaws? If you
>>>>>>>>>> think
>>>>>>>>>> the
>>>>>>>>>>  NFB is incapable of forcing choices on people, you are very sadly
>>>>>>>>>>  mistaken.
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>  On 8/16/22 09:36, K0LNY_Glenn wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>>   This sort of thing would never happen in Nebraska, or any state
>>>>>>>>>>> where
>>>>>>>>>>>   the
>>>>>>>>>>>   agency staff is of the NFB philosophy.
>>>>>>>>>>>   Say what you want about the NFB, no organization is without its
>>>>>>>>>>>   problems,
>>>>>>>>>>>   but it is the core philosophy that formed the NFB that knows
>>>>>>>>>>> that
>>>>>>>>>>>   society
>>>>>>>>>>>   has low expectations of the Blind, and this is why the NFB
>>>>>>>>>>> believes
>>>>>>>>>>> in
>>>>>>>>>>>   skills and high expectations.
>>>>>>>>>>>   And with that, comes giving respect to the Blind, like the
>>>>>>>>>>> respect
>>>>>>>>>>> of
>>>>>>>>>>>   choice.
>>>>>>>>>>>   Yeah I know about the information of recent about NFB abuse,
>>>>>>>>>>> but
>>>>>>>>>>> this
>>>>>>>>>>>   is
>>>>>>>>>>>   organizational issues, unrelated to the philosophy.  In fact,
>>>>>>>>>>> the
>>>>>>>>>>> fact
>>>>>>>>>>>   that
>>>>>>>>>>>   it has come up demonstrates that the NFB is no different than
>>>>>>>>>>> any
>>>>>>>>>>> other
>>>>>>>>>>>   organization in interpersonal staff issues.
>>>>>>>>>>>   And choice does not mean training center choices.
>>>>>>>>>>>   Choice isn't always an option, just like if you took a
>>>>>>>>>>> vocational
>>>>>>>>>>>   course
>>>>>>>>>>>   in
>>>>>>>>>>>   college, there are things you have to take, so to me, the lack
>>>>>>>>>>> of
>>>>>>>>>>>   choice
>>>>>>>>>>>   in
>>>>>>>>>>>   this regard is different than computer software, where all the
>>>>>>>>>>> choices
>>>>>>>>>>>   will
>>>>>>>>>>>   reach the same end result.
>>>>>>>>>>>   In states where the NFB philosophy is embraced, if a client
>>>>>>>>>>> said
>>>>>>>>>>> I
>>>>>>>>>>> want
>>>>>>>>>>>   to
>>>>>>>>>>>   use a Mac, or I want Window Eyes, then that is what they would
>>>>>>>>>>> get,
>>>>>>>>>>> no
>>>>>>>>>>>   questions asked.
>>>>>>>>>>>   They would not have to fight to get it.
>>>>>>>>>>>   I simply cannot imagine a counselor saying that someone has to
>>>>>>>>>>> use
>>>>>>>>>>> the
>>>>>>>>>>>   software that the counselor wants them to have.
>>>>>>>>>>>   When I hear that stuff, I almost cannot believe it, but I know
>>>>>>>>>>> Butch
>>>>>>>>>>>   well
>>>>>>>>>>>   enough to know he wouldn't make that up.
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>   Glenn
>>>>>>>>>>>   ----- Original Message -----
>>>>>>>>>>>   From: "Butch Bussen" <butchb at shellworld.net>
>>>>>>>>>>>   To: "Karen Lewellen" <klewellen at shellworld.net>
>>>>>>>>>>>   Cc: "K0LNY_Glenn" <glenn at ervin.email>;
>>>>>>>>>>> <speakup at linux-speakup.org>;
>>>>>>>>>>>   "Milan
>>>>>>>>>>>   Zamazal" <pdm at zamazal.org>; <Blinux-list at redhat.com>
>>>>>>>>>>>   Sent: Tuesday, August 16, 2022 8:18 AM
>>>>>>>>>>>   Subject: Re: "Accessibility in Fedora Workstation" (fwd)
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>   You are right.  In Nevada, freedom pushed jaws to the rehab
>>>>>>>>>>> people
>>>>>>>>>>> and
>>>>>>>>>>>   took them out for steak diners and so forth.  I fought like
>>>>>>>>>>> hell
>>>>>>>>>>> to
>>>>>>>>>>> get
>>>>>>>>>>>   them to buy window-eyes.
>>>>>>>>>>>   73
>>>>>>>>>>>   Butch
>>>>>>>>>>>   WA0VJR
>>>>>>>>>>>   Node 3148
>>>>>>>>>>>   Wallace, ks.
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>   On Sun, 14 Aug 2022, Karen Lewellen wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>   And where do these employers learn about jaws?
>>>>>>>>>>>>   In fact, provide if you do not mind an example of how  this
>>>>>>>>>>>> works
>>>>>>>>>>>>   exactly.
>>>>>>>>>>>>   after all, unless I am incorrect, these employers are not
>>>>>>>>>>>> personal
>>>>>>>>>>>>   Jaws
>>>>>>>>>>>>   users, meaning someone they trust continues to sell them on an
>>>>>>>>>>>>   expensive
>>>>>>>>>>>>   program instead of a largely free one.
>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>   On Sat, 13 Aug 2022, K0LNY_Glenn wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>     Karen,
>>>>>>>>>>>>>     Most employers don't want NVDA, and will only allow Jaws.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>     In Nebraska, if an employer said put on whatever works, the
>>>>>>>>>>>>>     counselors
>>>>>>>>>>>>>     will
>>>>>>>>>>>>>     use NVDA, because of the cost of Jaws.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>     If some of the clients in a call center already use Jaws,
>>>>>>>>>>>>> but
>>>>>>>>>>>>>     don't know
>>>>>>>>>>>>>     NVDA, the counselor will use Jaws, because the other
>>>>>>>>>>>>> clients
>>>>>>>>>>>>> will
>>>>>>>>>>>>>     need
>>>>>>>>>>>>>   to
>>>>>>>>>>>>>     learn one of the two.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>     So it's all choice, but in the workplace, it depends on
>>>>>>>>>>>>> what
>>>>>>>>>>>>> the
>>>>>>>>>>>>>   employer
>>>>>>>>>>>>>     will allow.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>     Also, sometimes scripts need to be made, and there are more
>>>>>>>>>>>>> Jaws
>>>>>>>>>>>>>   scripters
>>>>>>>>>>>>>     available than there are NVDA add-on writers.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>     So this perception that Jaws is forced by rehab, from my 31
>>>>>>>>>>>>> years
>>>>>>>>>>>>>     in the
>>>>>>>>>>>>>     business I can say is rubbish.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>     Now, if a counselor did not know how to use NVDA, and
>>>>>>>>>>>>> either
>>>>>>>>>>>>> may
>>>>>>>>>>>>>     be
>>>>>>>>>>>>>     chosen,
>>>>>>>>>>>>>     the rehab counselor is able to select the one that the
>>>>>>>>>>>>> counselor
>>>>>>>>>>>>>     feels
>>>>>>>>>>>>>   is
>>>>>>>>>>>>>     best for the student and for the counselor's teaching.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>     When it comes to part B moneys, which is used for
>>>>>>>>>>>>> non-vocational
>>>>>>>>>>>>>     purchases,
>>>>>>>>>>>>>     where a lot of Jaws purchases come from, it is in the
>>>>>>>>>>>>> agency's
>>>>>>>>>>>>>     best
>>>>>>>>>>>>>     interest
>>>>>>>>>>>>>     to spend as little as possible, because that doesn't come
>>>>>>>>>>>>> back
>>>>>>>>>>>>>     like VR
>>>>>>>>>>>>>     expenditures do.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>     Glenn
>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>     ----- Original Message -----
>>>>>>>>>>>>>     From: "Karen Lewellen" <klewellen at shellworld.net>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>     To: "K0LNY_Glenn" <glenn at ervin.email>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>     Cc: <speakup at linux-speakup.org>; "Milan Zamazal"
>>>>>>>>>>>>>     <pdm at zamazal.org>;
>>>>>>>>>>>>>     <Blinux-list at redhat.com>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>     Sent: Saturday, August 13, 2022 6:15 PM
>>>>>>>>>>>>>     Subject: Re: "Accessibility in Fedora Workstation" (fwd)
>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>     The challenge with that example is that, as one often gets
>>>>>>>>>>>>>   reminded,
>>>>>>>>>>>>>   the
>>>>>>>>>>>>>     rehab systems track record for facilitating  employment for
>>>>>>>>>>>>> their
>>>>>>>>>>>>>   clients
>>>>>>>>>>>>>     is quite poor.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>     With a high percentage of unemployment among our clients.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>     Making,
>>>>>>>>>>>>>     speaking personally, your buying Jaws for personal use not
>>>>>>>>>>>>> really
>>>>>>>>>>>>>     reflecting how the system would respond to an alternative
>>>>>>>>>>>>>     request.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>     Now if someone from organized rehab said, okay freedom
>>>>>>>>>>>>>     scientific, we
>>>>>>>>>>>>>   are
>>>>>>>>>>>>>     creating an employment program where our clients will train
>>>>>>>>>>>>> in
>>>>>>>>>>>>>     Linux,
>>>>>>>>>>>>>     needing a solid screen reader solution for the system.  We
>>>>>>>>>>>>> will
>>>>>>>>>>>>>     give you
>>>>>>>>>>>>>     an
>>>>>>>>>>>>>     exclusive development contract for s millions to create the
>>>>>>>>>>>>> tool.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>     Fs would likely say where do we sign?
>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>     On Sat, 13 Aug 2022, K0LNY_Glenn wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>     True enough, but largely, rehab people typically use
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Windows
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> at
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>     work,
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>     and
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>     probably at home, but they need to cater to the needs of
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> the
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>     client.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>     If a client used Linux, I doubt that any rehab counselor
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> would
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>   advocate
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>     that
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>     the client switch to Windows, unless that was needed for a
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>     specific
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>   job.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>     In Nebraska, we purchased Jaws much more for personal use
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> than
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>     we did
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>     for
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>     work related situations.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>     So if FS made a JFL, and people were using Linux, rehab
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> would
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>     indeed
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>     purchase a JFL product.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>     Glenn
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>     ----- Original Message -----
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>     From: "Karen Lewellen" <klewellen at shellworld.net>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>     To: "K0LNY_Glenn" <glenn at ervin.email>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>     Cc: <speakup at linux-speakup.org>; "Milan Zamazal"
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>     <pdm at zamazal.org>;
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>     <Blinux-list at redhat.com>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>     Sent: Saturday, August 13, 2022 3:01 PM
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>     Subject: Re: "Accessibility in Fedora Workstation" (fwd)
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>     there was an interesting discussion a month or so back on
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> the
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>     blinux
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>     list
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>     about how long it took completing tasks in the gui as
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> apposed
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>     to say
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>     command line,  the comments were quite informative.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>     Still, fs has never marketed largely to the end user.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Instead
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>     they
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>     market
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>     to the American rehab community.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>     how much market research has  the rehab community done to
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>     support the
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>     need
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>     for choices?
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>     How many rehab counselors support  training in Linux?
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>     one comment made by the subject of this thread about poor
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>     quality
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>   speech
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>     is a fine one...out of the box Linux has few speech
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> choices.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>     everyone
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>     brings their needs to the table there.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>     if you want to get fs to care about Linux, you  need to
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> prove
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>     there is
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>     money for  them there, from their main source of income.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>     On Sat, 13 Aug 2022, K0LNY_Glenn wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>     Well since Orca seems to work on so many distros, I don't
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>   know why
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>   FS
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>     would
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>     not be able to do the same.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>     If Jaws users could switch into Linux, it would be a real
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>     game
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>     changer,
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>     and
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>     I think with lots more Blind Linux users, we would start
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>     seeing
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>     accessibility in Linux not being a second thought.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>     Glenn
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>     ----- Original Message -----
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>     From: "Karen Lewellen" <klewellen at shellworld.net>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>     To: "K0LNY_Glenn" <glenn at ervin.email>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>     Cc: <speakup at linux-speakup.org>; "Milan Zamazal"
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>     <pdm at zamazal.org>;
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>     <Blinux-list at redhat.com>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>     Sent: Saturday, August 13, 2022 1:47 PM
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>     Subject: Re: "Accessibility in Fedora Workstation" (fwd)
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>     Well technically freedom scientific does not exist any
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>     longer, being
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>     bought
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>     by another company.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>     Still, I can respect why they, or nvda have not created
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> their
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>     tools
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>     for
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>     Linux.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>     That is because as I understand it, Linux is  quite like
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>     clay. You
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>   can
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>     mold a distribution into almost anything. there are
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> various
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>     personifications of the system, all sorts of ways and
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> changes
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>     and
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>     options
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>     for creativity.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>     however adaptive tools are often extensions of physical
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>     characteristics,
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>     hands, eyes, ears, brains, combinations of these.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>     To build solid assistive tools one must have a solid
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>     foundation as
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>   it
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>     were.  that is part of why there have needed to be so few
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>     Apple
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>     efforts
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>     at
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>     inclusion, they  created  with, and then created in-house
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>     adaptive
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>     tools
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>     for various  populations that were built into the system.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>     Although Microsoft did not bother until much later, in
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> theory
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>     at
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>     least,
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>     the
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>     consistency of windows is what makes it possible for
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> freedom
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>     or the
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>     former
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>     gw  micro or nvda to create something that can in theory
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>     work.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>     Floor for the furniture is somewhat solid.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>     Just my thoughts,
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>     On Sat, 13 Aug 2022, K0LNY_Glenn wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>     I would like to see Freedom Scientific make a Jaws For
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>     Linux.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>     JFL
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>     I'd certainly pay the yearly rental fee for it, and it
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>     would bring
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>     many
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>     more
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>     users into Linux.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>     FS could, with its resources, possibly make it more
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> robust
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>     than
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>     Orca.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>     Glenn
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>     ----- Original Message -----
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>     From: "Milan Zamazal" <pdm at zamazal.org>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>     To: <speakup at linux-speakup.org>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>     Cc: <Blinux-list at redhat.com>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>     Sent: Saturday, August 13, 2022 12:08 PM
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>     Subject: Re: "Accessibility in Fedora Workstation" (fwd)
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>     "KL" == Karen Lewellen
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> <klewellen at shellworld.net>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>   writes:
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>   KL>  What bothers me most are his lack of actual
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>   qualifications,
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>   and
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> KL>    absolute dismissal of what he has not experienced..as
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> if
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> KL>    he
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> KL>    defines Linux usage for everyone.  That attitude is
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> KL>    dangerous,
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> KL>    because he is educating those outside of the
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> KL>    accessibility
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> KL>    experiences, who will believe his ignorance is
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> factual.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> KL>    he
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>   has
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>   KL>  to be expert, it is his job.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>     Hi Karen,
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>     I know Lukas personally and I admire his skills and
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>   qualifications.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>     I
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>     also know first hand that he is open to constructive
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>     feedback and
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>   I
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>     believe he???Td be happy to be corrected about possible
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>     technical
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>     inaccuracies in the interview.  It may be also a good
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>     opportunity
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>   to
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>     find out what???Ts possibly missing in making anybody
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>     better
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>     informed.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>     As for ???oabsolute dismissal of what he has not
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>   experienced?????,
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>   what
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>     reasonable free software alternatives to a less or more
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>     standard
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>     desktop
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>     with Orca and a software synthesizer can you see for a
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>     common
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>   blind
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>     user
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>     who needs to use a fully working web browser, to read
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> and
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>     process
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>     text
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>     documents, to be compatible with other computer users,
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>     etc.?
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>     And let???Ts be realistic.  We celebrate every single
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>   developer
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>   hired
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>     to
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>     improve accessibility.  This tells something about the
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>     state of
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>   the
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>     matters.  We cannot expect that a single person will fix
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>     all the
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>     kinds
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>     of accessibility problems in all the environments.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Lukas
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>     works at
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>     his
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>     job focusing on certain areas currently seen there as
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>     urgent ones
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>     and I
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>     appreciate this opportunity.  Anybody else seeing a need
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> to
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>     work
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>   on
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>     other areas is welcome to contribute to whatever sees
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> fit,
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>   as I
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>   do.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>     Regards,
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>     Milan
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>
>>>
>> _______________________________________________
>> Blinux-list mailing list
>> Blinux-list at redhat.com
>> https://listman.redhat.com/mailman/listinfo/blinux-list
>>
>>
>
>
> -- 
> Scam victim? Tell your story at www.scam911.org/surviving-the-scam
> Also check out brightstarsweb.com and mysitesbeenhacked.com
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>
> _______________________________________________
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>

"Accessibility in Fedora Workstation" (fwd)

[blinux-list]

Really?  that would be a second sale as last information I had  when gw 
micro was failing, an umbrella group of companies were managing  the 
products.



On Sat, 13 Aug 2022, Jude DaShiell wrote:

> Jude DaShiell here, the Wufrug Group I think from Kuwait bought out FS.
> By now, Wufrug Group may have sold FS to another corporation for all I
> know.
>
>
> On Sat, 13 Aug 2022, K0LNY_Glenn wrote:
>
>> Well since Orca seems to work on so many distros, I don't know why FS would
>> not be able to do the same.
>> If Jaws users could switch into Linux, it would be a real game changer, and
>> I think with lots more Blind Linux users, we would start seeing
>> accessibility in Linux not being a second thought.
>> Glenn
>> ----- Original Message -----
>> From: "Karen Lewellen" <klewellen at shellworld.net>
>> To: "K0LNY_Glenn" <glenn at ervin.email>
>> Cc: <speakup at linux-speakup.org>; "Milan Zamazal" <pdm at zamazal.org>;
>> <Blinux-list at redhat.com>
>> Sent: Saturday, August 13, 2022 1:47 PM
>> Subject: Re: "Accessibility in Fedora Workstation" (fwd)
>>
>>
>> Well technically freedom scientific does not exist any longer, being bought
>> by another company.
>> Still, I can respect why they, or nvda have not created their tools for
>> Linux.
>> That is because as I understand it, Linux is  quite like clay. You can
>> mold a distribution into almost anything. there are various
>> personifications of the system, all sorts of ways and changes and options
>> for creativity.
>> however adaptive tools are often extensions of physical characteristics,
>> hands, eyes, ears, brains, combinations of these.
>> To build solid assistive tools one must have a solid  foundation as it
>> were.  that is part of why there have needed to be so few Apple  efforts at
>> inclusion, they  created  with, and then created in-house adaptive tools
>> for various  populations that were built into the system.
>> Although Microsoft did not bother until much later, in theory at least, the
>> consistency of windows is what makes it possible for freedom or the former
>> gw  micro or nvda to create something that can in theory  work.
>> Floor for the furniture is somewhat solid.
>> Just my thoughts,
>>
>>
>>
>> On Sat, 13 Aug 2022, K0LNY_Glenn wrote:
>>
>>> I would like to see Freedom Scientific make a Jaws For Linux.
>>> JFL
>>> I'd certainly pay the yearly rental fee for it, and it would bring many
>>> more
>>> users into Linux.
>>> FS could, with its resources, possibly make it more robust than Orca.
>>>
>>> Glenn
>>> ----- Original Message -----
>>> From: "Milan Zamazal" <pdm at zamazal.org>
>>> To: <speakup at linux-speakup.org>
>>> Cc: <Blinux-list at redhat.com>
>>> Sent: Saturday, August 13, 2022 12:08 PM
>>> Subject: Re: "Accessibility in Fedora Workstation" (fwd)
>>>
>>>
>>>>>>>> "KL" == Karen Lewellen <klewellen at shellworld.net> writes:
>>>
>>>    KL> What bothers me most are his lack of actual qualifications, and
>>>    KL> absolute dismissal of what he has not experienced..as if he
>>>    KL> defines Linux usage for everyone.  That attitude is dangerous,
>>>    KL> because he is educating those outside of the accessibility
>>>    KL> experiences, who will believe his ignorance is factual.  he has
>>>    KL> to be expert, it is his job.
>>>
>>> Hi Karen,
>>>
>>> I know Lukas personally and I admire his skills and qualifications.  I
>>> also know first hand that he is open to constructive feedback and I
>>> believe he?d be happy to be corrected about possible technical
>>> inaccuracies in the interview.  It may be also a good opportunity to
>>> find out what?s possibly missing in making anybody better informed.
>>>
>>> As for ?absolute dismissal of what he has not experienced?, what
>>> reasonable free software alternatives to a less or more standard desktop
>>> with Orca and a software synthesizer can you see for a common blind user
>>> who needs to use a fully working web browser, to read and process text
>>> documents, to be compatible with other computer users, etc.?
>>>
>>> And let?s be realistic.  We celebrate every single developer hired to
>>> improve accessibility.  This tells something about the state of the
>>> matters.  We cannot expect that a single person will fix all the kinds
>>> of accessibility problems in all the environments.  Lukas works at his
>>> job focusing on certain areas currently seen there as urgent ones and I
>>> appreciate this opportunity.  Anybody else seeing a need to work on
>>> other areas is welcome to contribute to whatever sees fit, as I do.
>>>
>>> Regards,
>>> Milan
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>
>>
>>
>
>

"Accessibility in Fedora Workstation" (fwd)

[blinux-list]

may I ask from where he obtained his software engineering degree?
Studied computer science?  Perhaps disability studies?
there are certainly scores of  disabled individuals with these various 
levels of 
qualification..even who are Linux users.
The interview did not document a single one, outside of his experiencing 
blindness..which is not going to insure he creates an accessible platform 
for fedora since access  refers to several populations.  and he states he 
knows  nothing about those.



On Sat, 13 Aug 2022, Milan Zamazal wrote:

>>>>>> "KL" == Karen Lewellen <klewellen at shellworld.net> writes:
>
>    KL> What bothers me most are his lack of actual qualifications, and
>    KL> absolute dismissal of what he has not experienced..as if he
>    KL> defines Linux usage for everyone.  That attitude is dangerous,
>    KL> because he is educating those outside of the accessibility
>    KL> experiences, who will believe his ignorance is factual.  he has
>    KL> to be expert, it is his job.
>
> Hi Karen,
>
> I know Lukas personally and I admire his skills and qualifications.  I
> also know first hand that he is open to constructive feedback and I
> believe he?d be happy to be corrected about possible technical
> inaccuracies in the interview.  It may be also a good opportunity to
> find out what?s possibly missing in making anybody better informed.
>
> As for ?absolute dismissal of what he has not experienced?, what
> reasonable free software alternatives to a less or more standard desktop
> with Orca and a software synthesizer can you see for a common blind user
> who needs to use a fully working web browser, to read and process text
> documents, to be compatible with other computer users, etc.?
>
> And let?s be realistic.  We celebrate every single developer hired to
> improve accessibility.  This tells something about the state of the
> matters.  We cannot expect that a single person will fix all the kinds
> of accessibility problems in all the environments.  Lukas works at his
> job focusing on certain areas currently seen there as urgent ones and I
> appreciate this opportunity.  Anybody else seeing a need to work on
> other areas is welcome to contribute to whatever sees fit, as I do.
>
> Regards,
> Milan
>
>
>

"Accessibility in Fedora Workstation" (fwd)

[blinux-list]

>>>>> "KL" == Karen Lewellen <klewellen at shellworld.net> writes:

    KL> may I ask from where he obtained his software engineering
    KL> degree?  Studied computer science?  Perhaps disability studies?
    KL> there are certainly scores of disabled individuals with these
    KL> various levels of qualification..even who are Linux users.  The
    KL> interview did not document a single one, outside of his
    KL> experiencing blindness..which is not going to insure he creates
    KL> an accessible platform for fedora since access refers to several
    KL> populations.  and he states he knows nothing about those.

I have already said regarding this what I felt was needed and I don?t
find appropriate continuing that discussion here.  I?d suggest focusing
on how to improve free software accessibility instead.

If anybody cares about Fedora accessibility, there is always opportunity
to help by providing fixes to reported bugs, giving technical advice or
filing bugs on not yet reported issues.  All of these is needed, it?s
sometimes difficult to move on with some issues and to get any help.
OTOH trying to demotivate people who work on accessibility is certainly
not helpful.

Regards,
Milan

    KL> On Sat, 13 Aug 2022, Milan Zamazal wrote:

    >>>>>>> "KL" == Karen Lewellen <klewellen at shellworld.net> writes:
    >> 
    KL> What bothers me most are his lack of actual qualifications, and
    KL> absolute dismissal of what he has not experienced..as if he
    KL> defines Linux usage for everyone.  That attitude is dangerous,
    KL> because he is educating those outside of the accessibility
    KL> experiences, who will believe his ignorance is factual.  he has
    KL> to be expert, it is his job.
    >> 
    >> Hi Karen,
    >> 
    >> I know Lukas personally and I admire his skills and
    >> qualifications.  I also know first hand that he is open to
    >> constructive feedback and I believe he?d be happy to be corrected
    >> about possible technical inaccuracies in the interview.  It may
    >> be also a good opportunity to find out what?s possibly missing in
    >> making anybody better informed.
    >> 
    >> As for ?absolute dismissal of what he has not experienced?, what
    >> reasonable free software alternatives to a less or more standard
    >> desktop with Orca and a software synthesizer can you see for a
    >> common blind user who needs to use a fully working web browser,
    >> to read and process text documents, to be compatible with other
    >> computer users, etc.?
    >> 
    >> And let?s be realistic.  We celebrate every single developer
    >> hired to improve accessibility.  This tells something about the
    >> state of the matters.  We cannot expect that a single person will
    >> fix all the kinds of accessibility problems in all the
    >> environments.  Lukas works at his job focusing on certain areas
    >> currently seen there as urgent ones and I appreciate this
    >> opportunity.  Anybody else seeing a need to work on other areas
    >> is welcome to contribute to whatever sees fit, as I do.
    >> 
    >> Regards, Milan
    >> 
    >> 
    >> 

"Accessibility in Fedora Workstation" (fwd)

[blinux-list]

And as I said from the outset, I am far more concerned with how this 
article   makes accessibility, and Red Hat commitment to accessibility 
appear  to the public.
A claim to having authority, when stating one knows nothing about how 
access can be provided to various populations equally deserving is 
concerning.
even in the article comments an individual outlined a need, that they did 
not anticipate being met because Fedora was creating a "blindness" 
program.
If your associate  leads with stated limits,  yet does not  indicate he 
plans to address them, inclusion on this platform for all who seek it 
seems  far from likely.
I do agree on the forum though. Had comment snot been closed by the time I 
got  the article, and I been  in a position to do so, I might have  raised 
them  on the spot.



On Sat, 13 Aug 2022, Milan Zamazal wrote:

>>>>>> "KL" == Karen Lewellen <klewellen at shellworld.net> writes:
>
>    KL> may I ask from where he obtained his software engineering
>    KL> degree?  Studied computer science?  Perhaps disability studies?
>    KL> there are certainly scores of disabled individuals with these
>    KL> various levels of qualification..even who are Linux users.  The
>    KL> interview did not document a single one, outside of his
>    KL> experiencing blindness..which is not going to insure he creates
>    KL> an accessible platform for fedora since access refers to several
>    KL> populations.  and he states he knows nothing about those.
>
> I have already said regarding this what I felt was needed and I don?t
> find appropriate continuing that discussion here.  I?d suggest focusing
> on how to improve free software accessibility instead.
>
> If anybody cares about Fedora accessibility, there is always opportunity
> to help by providing fixes to reported bugs, giving technical advice or
> filing bugs on not yet reported issues.  All of these is needed, it?s
> sometimes difficult to move on with some issues and to get any help.
> OTOH trying to demotivate people who work on accessibility is certainly
> not helpful.
>
> Regards,
> Milan
>
>    KL> On Sat, 13 Aug 2022, Milan Zamazal wrote:
>
>    >>>>>>> "KL" == Karen Lewellen <klewellen at shellworld.net> writes:
>    >>
>    KL> What bothers me most are his lack of actual qualifications, and
>    KL> absolute dismissal of what he has not experienced..as if he
>    KL> defines Linux usage for everyone.  That attitude is dangerous,
>    KL> because he is educating those outside of the accessibility
>    KL> experiences, who will believe his ignorance is factual.  he has
>    KL> to be expert, it is his job.
>    >>
>    >> Hi Karen,
>    >>
>    >> I know Lukas personally and I admire his skills and
>    >> qualifications.  I also know first hand that he is open to
>    >> constructive feedback and I believe he?d be happy to be corrected
>    >> about possible technical inaccuracies in the interview.  It may
>    >> be also a good opportunity to find out what?s possibly missing in
>    >> making anybody better informed.
>    >>
>    >> As for ?absolute dismissal of what he has not experienced?, what
>    >> reasonable free software alternatives to a less or more standard
>    >> desktop with Orca and a software synthesizer can you see for a
>    >> common blind user who needs to use a fully working web browser,
>    >> to read and process text documents, to be compatible with other
>    >> computer users, etc.?
>    >>
>    >> And let?s be realistic.  We celebrate every single developer
>    >> hired to improve accessibility.  This tells something about the
>    >> state of the matters.  We cannot expect that a single person will
>    >> fix all the kinds of accessibility problems in all the
>    >> environments.  Lukas works at his job focusing on certain areas
>    >> currently seen there as urgent ones and I appreciate this
>    >> opportunity.  Anybody else seeing a need to work on other areas
>    >> is welcome to contribute to whatever sees fit, as I do.
>    >>
>    >> Regards, Milan
>    >>
>    >>
>    >>
>
>

"Accessibility in Fedora Workstation" (fwd)

[blinux-list]

Karen, I concur to all Milan said.

Can't you just stop bashing someone who you don't know (and can't answer you
unless he is subscribed to one of the mailing list where you posted this rant,
which seems unfair to me), and a distribution that at least devotes resources to
accessibility, even if they do not focus specifically on what you would like
them to? You should just be grateful for all Fedora as provided and continue to
provide at no cost wrt accessibility. I am, even though I do not personally need
 it.

That there be inaccuracies in the article is not that important and I don't care
that  Luks doesn't know everything in the matter (who does?). I am sure that he
will quickly complete his knowledge, anyway most probably already sufficient for
what he is asked to work on.

Best regards,
Didier


Le 14/08/2022 ? 01:07, Karen Lewellen a ?crit?:
> And as I said from the outset, I am far more concerned with how this article??
> makes accessibility, and Red Hat commitment to accessibility appear? to the public.
> A claim to having authority, when stating one knows nothing about how access can
> be provided to various populations equally deserving is concerning.
> even in the article comments an individual outlined a need, that they did not
> anticipate being met because Fedora was creating a "blindness" program.
> If your associate? leads with stated limits,? yet does not? indicate he plans to
> address them, inclusion on this platform for all who seek it seems? far from
> likely.
> I do agree on the forum though. Had comment snot been closed by the time I got?
> the article, and I been? in a position to do so, I might have? raised them? on
> the spot.
> 
> 
> 
> On Sat, 13 Aug 2022, Milan Zamazal wrote:
> 
>>>>>>> "KL" == Karen Lewellen <klewellen at shellworld.net> writes:
>>
>> ?? KL> may I ask from where he obtained his software engineering
>> ?? KL> degree?? Studied computer science?? Perhaps disability studies?
>> ?? KL> there are certainly scores of disabled individuals with these
>> ?? KL> various levels of qualification..even who are Linux users.? The
>> ?? KL> interview did not document a single one, outside of his
>> ?? KL> experiencing blindness..which is not going to insure he creates
>> ?? KL> an accessible platform for fedora since access refers to several
>> ?? KL> populations.? and he states he knows nothing about those.
>>
>> I have already said regarding this what I felt was needed and I don?t
>> find appropriate continuing that discussion here.? I?d suggest focusing
>> on how to improve free software accessibility instead.
>>
>> If anybody cares about Fedora accessibility, there is always opportunity
>> to help by providing fixes to reported bugs, giving technical advice or
>> filing bugs on not yet reported issues.? All of these is needed, it?s
>> sometimes difficult to move on with some issues and to get any help.
>> OTOH trying to demotivate people who work on accessibility is certainly
>> not helpful.
>>
>> Regards,
>> Milan
>>
>> ?? KL> On Sat, 13 Aug 2022, Milan Zamazal wrote:
>>
>> ?? >>>>>>> "KL" == Karen Lewellen <klewellen at shellworld.net> writes:
>> ?? >>
>> ?? KL> What bothers me most are his lack of actual qualifications, and
>> ?? KL> absolute dismissal of what he has not experienced..as if he
>> ?? KL> defines Linux usage for everyone.? That attitude is dangerous,
>> ?? KL> because he is educating those outside of the accessibility
>> ?? KL> experiences, who will believe his ignorance is factual.? he has
>> ?? KL> to be expert, it is his job.
>> ?? >>
>> ?? >> Hi Karen,
>> ?? >>
>> ?? >> I know Lukas personally and I admire his skills and
>> ?? >> qualifications.? I also know first hand that he is open to
>> ?? >> constructive feedback and I believe he?d be happy to be corrected
>> ?? >> about possible technical inaccuracies in the interview.? It may
>> ?? >> be also a good opportunity to find out what?s possibly missing in
>> ?? >> making anybody better informed.
>> ?? >>
>> ?? >> As for ?absolute dismissal of what he has not experienced?, what
>> ?? >> reasonable free software alternatives to a less or more standard
>> ?? >> desktop with Orca and a software synthesizer can you see for a
>> ?? >> common blind user who needs to use a fully working web browser,
>> ?? >> to read and process text documents, to be compatible with other
>> ?? >> computer users, etc.?
>> ?? >>
>> ?? >> And let?s be realistic.? We celebrate every single developer
>> ?? >> hired to improve accessibility.? This tells something about the
>> ?? >> state of the matters.? We cannot expect that a single person will
>> ?? >> fix all the kinds of accessibility problems in all the
>> ?? >> environments.? Lukas works at his job focusing on certain areas
>> ?? >> currently seen there as urgent ones and I appreciate this
>> ?? >> opportunity.? Anybody else seeing a need to work on other areas
>> ?? >> is welcome to contribute to whatever sees fit, as I do.
>> ?? >>
>> ?? >> Regards, Milan
>> ?? >>
>> ?? >>
>> ?? >>
>>
>>

"Accessibility in Fedora Workstation" (fwd)

[blinux-list]

I am not bashing anyone.
And who Said fedora is providing anything whatsoever for me at all?
Of course, i get asked by the general Linux users group sharing this 
article to defend the limited thinking of a so  called professional, 
because 
of course everyone sharing a label with him can access just because he 
can.
the very willingness  to cut this person some slack as a token 
representation of red hat's desire to projectively stereotype is part of why 
actual inclusion is problematical.
I am expected to know him, because he is represented to personify my 
accommodation needs...and. he. does. not.
The fact it is free is  completely unimportant.



On Sun, 14 Aug 2022, Didier Spaier wrote:

> Karen, I concur to all Milan said.
>
> Can't you just stop bashing someone who you don't know (and can't answer you
> unless he is subscribed to one of the mailing list where you posted this rant,
> which seems unfair to me), and a distribution that at least devotes resources to
> accessibility, even if they do not focus specifically on what you would like
> them to? You should just be grateful for all Fedora as provided and continue to
> provide at no cost wrt accessibility. I am, even though I do not personally need
> it.
>
> That there be inaccuracies in the article is not that important and I don't care
> that  Luks doesn't know everything in the matter (who does?). I am sure that he
> will quickly complete his knowledge, anyway most probably already sufficient for
> what he is asked to work on.
>
> Best regards,
> Didier
>
>
> Le 14/08/2022 ? 01:07, Karen Lewellen a ?crit?:
>> And as I said from the outset, I am far more concerned with how this article??
>> makes accessibility, and Red Hat commitment to accessibility appear? to the public.
>> A claim to having authority, when stating one knows nothing about how access can
>> be provided to various populations equally deserving is concerning.
>> even in the article comments an individual outlined a need, that they did not
>> anticipate being met because Fedora was creating a "blindness" program.
>> If your associate? leads with stated limits,? yet does not? indicate he plans to
>> address them, inclusion on this platform for all who seek it seems? far from
>> likely.
>> I do agree on the forum though. Had comment snot been closed by the time I got?
>> the article, and I been? in a position to do so, I might have? raised them? on
>> the spot.
>>
>>
>>
>> On Sat, 13 Aug 2022, Milan Zamazal wrote:
>>
>>>>>>>> "KL" == Karen Lewellen <klewellen at shellworld.net> writes:
>>>
>>> ?? KL> may I ask from where he obtained his software engineering
>>> ?? KL> degree?? Studied computer science?? Perhaps disability studies?
>>> ?? KL> there are certainly scores of disabled individuals with these
>>> ?? KL> various levels of qualification..even who are Linux users.? The
>>> ?? KL> interview did not document a single one, outside of his
>>> ?? KL> experiencing blindness..which is not going to insure he creates
>>> ?? KL> an accessible platform for fedora since access refers to several
>>> ?? KL> populations.? and he states he knows nothing about those.
>>>
>>> I have already said regarding this what I felt was needed and I don?t
>>> find appropriate continuing that discussion here.? I?d suggest focusing
>>> on how to improve free software accessibility instead.
>>>
>>> If anybody cares about Fedora accessibility, there is always opportunity
>>> to help by providing fixes to reported bugs, giving technical advice or
>>> filing bugs on not yet reported issues.? All of these is needed, it?s
>>> sometimes difficult to move on with some issues and to get any help.
>>> OTOH trying to demotivate people who work on accessibility is certainly
>>> not helpful.
>>>
>>> Regards,
>>> Milan
>>>
>>> ?? KL> On Sat, 13 Aug 2022, Milan Zamazal wrote:
>>>
>>> ?? >>>>>>> "KL" == Karen Lewellen <klewellen at shellworld.net> writes:
>>> ?? >>
>>> ?? KL> What bothers me most are his lack of actual qualifications, and
>>> ?? KL> absolute dismissal of what he has not experienced..as if he
>>> ?? KL> defines Linux usage for everyone.? That attitude is dangerous,
>>> ?? KL> because he is educating those outside of the accessibility
>>> ?? KL> experiences, who will believe his ignorance is factual.? he has
>>> ?? KL> to be expert, it is his job.
>>> ?? >>
>>> ?? >> Hi Karen,
>>> ?? >>
>>> ?? >> I know Lukas personally and I admire his skills and
>>> ?? >> qualifications.? I also know first hand that he is open to
>>> ?? >> constructive feedback and I believe he?d be happy to be corrected
>>> ?? >> about possible technical inaccuracies in the interview.? It may
>>> ?? >> be also a good opportunity to find out what?s possibly missing in
>>> ?? >> making anybody better informed.
>>> ?? >>
>>> ?? >> As for ?absolute dismissal of what he has not experienced?, what
>>> ?? >> reasonable free software alternatives to a less or more standard
>>> ?? >> desktop with Orca and a software synthesizer can you see for a
>>> ?? >> common blind user who needs to use a fully working web browser,
>>> ?? >> to read and process text documents, to be compatible with other
>>> ?? >> computer users, etc.?
>>> ?? >>
>>> ?? >> And let?s be realistic.? We celebrate every single developer
>>> ?? >> hired to improve accessibility.? This tells something about the
>>> ?? >> state of the matters.? We cannot expect that a single person will
>>> ?? >> fix all the kinds of accessibility problems in all the
>>> ?? >> environments.? Lukas works at his job focusing on certain areas
>>> ?? >> currently seen there as urgent ones and I appreciate this
>>> ?? >> opportunity.? Anybody else seeing a need to work on other areas
>>> ?? >> is welcome to contribute to whatever sees fit, as I do.
>>> ?? >>
>>> ?? >> Regards, Milan
>>> ?? >>
>>> ?? >>
>>> ?? >>
>>>
>>>
>
>

"Accessibility in Fedora Workstation" (fwd)

[blinux-list]

That whole idea of we should be grateful for whatever crumbs we get needs to die.

----- Original Message -----
From: Linux for blind general discussion <blinux-list at redhat.com>
To: Didier Spaier <didier at slint.fr>
Cc: Blinux-list at redhat.com, Milan Zamazal <pdm at zamazal.org>, speakup at linux-speakup.org
Date: Sat, 13 Aug 2022 21:35:19 -0400 (EDT)
Subject: Re: "Accessibility in Fedora Workstation" (fwd)

> I am not bashing anyone.
And who Said fedora is providing anything whatsoever for me at all?
Of course, i get asked by the general Linux users group sharing this
article to defend the limited thinking of a so  called professional,
because
of course everyone sharing a label with him can access just because he
can.
the very willingness  to cut this person some slack as a token
representation of red hat's desire to projectively stereotype is part of why
actual inclusion is problematical.
I am expected to know him, because he is represented to personify my
accommodation needs...and. he. does. not.
The fact it is free is  completely unimportant.



On Sun, 14 Aug 2022, Didier Spaier wrote:

> Karen, I concur to all Milan said.
>
> Can't you just stop bashing someone who you don't know (and can't answer you
> unless he is subscribed to one of the mailing list where you posted this rant,
> which seems unfair to me), and a distribution that at least devotes resources to
> accessibility, even if they do not focus specifically on what you would like
> them to? You should just be grateful for all Fedora as provided and continue to
> provide at no cost wrt accessibility. I am, even though I do not personally need
> it.
>
> That there be inaccuracies in the article is not that important and I don't care
> that  Luks doesn't know everything in the matter (who does?). I am sure that he
> will quickly complete his knowledge, anyway most probably already sufficient for
> what he is asked to work on.
>
> Best regards,
> Didier
>
>
> Le 14/08/2022 ? 01:07, Karen Lewellen a ?crit?:
>> And as I said from the outset, I am far more concerned with how this article??
>> makes accessibility, and Red Hat commitment to accessibility appear? to the public.
>> A claim to having authority, when stating one knows nothing about how access can
>> be provided to various populations equally deserving is concerning.
>> even in the article comments an individual outlined a need, that they did not
>> anticipate being met because Fedora was creating a "blindness" program.
>> If your associate? leads with stated limits,? yet does not? indicate he plans to
>> address them, inclusion on this platform for all who seek it seems? far from
>> likely.
>> I do agree on the forum though. Had comment snot been closed by the time I got?
>> the article, and I been? in a position to do so, I might have? raised them? on
>> the spot.
>>
>>
>>
>> On Sat, 13 Aug 2022, Milan Zamazal wrote:
>>
>>>>>>>> "KL" == Karen Lewellen <klewellen at shellworld.net> writes:
>>>
>>> ?? KL> may I ask from where he obtained his software engineering
>>> ?? KL> degree?? Studied computer science?? Perhaps disability studies?
>>> ?? KL> there are certainly scores of disabled individuals with these
>>> ?? KL> various levels of qualification..even who are Linux users.? The
>>> ?? KL> interview did not document a single one, outside of his
>>> ?? KL> experiencing blindness..which is not going to insure he creates
>>> ?? KL> an accessible platform for fedora since access refers to several
>>> ?? KL> populations.? and he states he knows nothing about those.
>>>
>>> I have already said regarding this what I felt was needed and I don?t
>>> find appropriate continuing that discussion here.? I?d suggest focusing
>>> on how to improve free software accessibility instead.
>>>
>>> If anybody cares about Fedora accessibility, there is always opportunity
>>> to help by providing fixes to reported bugs, giving technical advice or
>>> filing bugs on not yet reported issues.? All of these is needed, it?s
>>> sometimes difficult to move on with some issues and to get any help.
>>> OTOH trying to demotivate people who work on accessibility is certainly
>>> not helpful.
>>>
>>> Regards,
>>> Milan
>>>
>>> ?? KL> On Sat, 13 Aug 2022, Milan Zamazal wrote:
>>>
>>> ?? >>>>>>> "KL" == Karen Lewellen <klewellen at shellworld.net> writes:
>>> ?? >>
>>> ?? KL> What bothers me most are his lack of actual qualifications, and
>>> ?? KL> absolute dismissal of what he has not experienced..as if he
>>> ?? KL> defines Linux usage for everyone.? That attitude is dangerous,
>>> ?? KL> because he is educating those outside of the accessibility
>>> ?? KL> experiences, who will believe his ignorance is factual.? he has
>>> ?? KL> to be expert, it is his job.
>>> ?? >>
>>> ?? >> Hi Karen,
>>> ?? >>
>>> ?? >> I know Lukas personally and I admire his skills and
>>> ?? >> qualifications.? I also know first hand that he is open to
>>> ?? >> constructive feedback and I believe he?d be happy to be corrected
>>> ?? >> about possible technical inaccuracies in the interview.? It may
>>> ?? >> be also a good opportunity to find out what?s possibly missing in
>>> ?? >> making anybody better informed.
>>> ?? >>
>>> ?? >> As for ?absolute dismissal of what he has not experienced?, what
>>> ?? >> reasonable free software alternatives to a less or more standard
>>> ?? >> desktop with Orca and a software synthesizer can you see for a
>>> ?? >> common blind user who needs to use a fully working web browser,
>>> ?? >> to read and process text documents, to be compatible with other
>>> ?? >> computer users, etc.?
>>> ?? >>
>>> ?? >> And let?s be realistic.? We celebrate every single developer
>>> ?? >> hired to improve accessibility.? This tells something about the
>>> ?? >> state of the matters.? We cannot expect that a single person will
>>> ?? >> fix all the kinds of accessibility problems in all the
>>> ?? >> environments.? Lukas works at his job focusing on certain areas
>>> ?? >> currently seen there as urgent ones and I appreciate this
>>> ?? >> opportunity.? Anybody else seeing a need to work on other areas
>>> ?? >> is welcome to contribute to whatever sees fit, as I do.
>>> ?? >>
>>> ?? >> Regards, Milan
>>> ?? >>
>>> ?? >>
>>> ?? >>
>>>
>>>
>
>
_______________________________________________
Blinux-list mailing list
Blinux-list at redhat.com
https://listman.redhat.com/mailman/listinfo/blinux-list

"Accessibility in Fedora Workstation" (fwd)

[blinux-list]

As I have said more than once, that is not how this article is being 
represented in the broader Linux community.
I will add that, by this person's own admission, clean up is the task he 
is *choosing* to focus  upon.
he is, according to those writing the article bringing accessibility to 
Fedora workstation.
i respect that for those in the know, in the choir so to speak what he is 
doing is clean up.
but that is not how the general Linux community is taking this 
information.
Best,



On Sun, 14 Aug 2022, Jookia wrote:

> Hi Karen,
>
> It seems like discussion about this article has been flooding my inbox
> over the past few days so I figured I'd finally read the article.
>
> It looks like he's just going to tidy up GNOME application accessibility
> which ... isn't that hard a job (at least for a sighted person), just
> tedious and political. This doesn't really require high certifications
> or degrees, just labor and people management.
>
> If we demand people have amazing certifications to do work like this
> then you'd end up in a situation like Gitea which has decided to close
> and lockevery unfixed accessibility issue in their tracker and seek a
> paid professional accessibility audit just to tell them to fix their bugs.
>
> Saying speakup without espeakup is basically useless is a stretch, but
> they're certainly rare devices at this point.
>
> Jookia.
>
>

"Accessibility in Fedora Workstation" (fwd)

[blinux-list]

I'm going to address points from several of Karen's messages:.

> he is, according to those writing the article bringing accessibility 
> to Fedora workstation.
> i respect that for those in the know, in the choir so to speak what he 
> is doing is clean up.
> but that is not how the general Linux community is taking this 
> information.
Let's look at what the article actually says, particularly the intro 
before the interview:

    The first concerted effort to support accessibility under Linux was
    undertaken by Sun Microsystems when they decided to use GNOME for
    Solaris. Sun put together a team focused on building the pieces to
    make GNOME 2 fully accessible and worked with hardware makers to
    make sure things like Braille devices worked well. I even heard
    claims that GNOME and Linux had the best accessibility of any
    operating system for a while due to this effort. As Sun started
    struggling and got acquired by Oracle this accessibility effort
    eventually trailed off with the community trying to pick up the
    slack afterwards. Especially engineers from Igalia were quite active
    for a while trying to keep the accessibility support working well.

    But over the years we definitely lost a bit of focus on this and we
    know that various parts of GNOME 3 for instance aren?t great in
    terms of accessibility. So at Red Hat we have had a lot of focus
    over the last few years trying to ensure we are mindful about
    diversity and inclusion when hiring, trying to ensure that we don?t
    accidentally pre-select against underrepresented groups based on for
    instance gender or ethnicity. But one area we realized we hadn?t
    given so much focus recently was around technologies that allowed
    people with various disabilities to make use of our software. Thus I
    am very happy to announce that Red Hat has just hired Lukas
    Tyrychtr, who is a blind software engineer, to lead our effort in
    making sure Red Hat Enterprise Linux and Fedora Workstation has
    excellent accessibility support!

That's somewhat long-winded, but it's clear to any careful reader that 
the foundation for accessibility was already laid, and that what most 
urgently needs to be done is to fix what has been broken in the years 
since Sun's accessibility team was disbanded. If things get 
misrepresented by others who have shared the article, that's surely not 
the fault of the authors. That happens all the time when people share 
things online; it's nothing new, and not worth belaboring.

> there are people using Linux in the console daily who deserve equal 
> access. 
I took this position in 2000, but for the last decade or more, access to 
a GUI has been widely available to blind people at no extra cost. (If 
there are blind people today who are truly stuck on old hardware with no 
accessible GUI, that's unfortunate, but I think this is one case where 
the best solution is charity, not expecting the rest of the world to 
accommodate this situation forever. That's no different than for sighted 
people stuck on very old hardware.) Blindness itself is a circumstance 
beyond one's control that deserves reasonable accommodation. But today, 
using the text console is a choice, a very conscious choice to swim 
upstream, against the current. Anyone who makes that choice should be 
prepared for difficulty. And in fact, the few people I know who choose 
to use the console today are prepared to use a GUI of one form or 
another when there's no other way to accomplish a task. A platform 
company like Red Hat is under no obligation to cater to the preference 
of the dwindling minority of a minority who choose to use the text 
console. To be clear, I have nothing against people who find 
console-based tools most productive; do whatever works for you. But we 
need to be careful about what we demand from the mainstream world, and I 
think that expecting to be able to do everything using only the console 
is too much.
> Second, this individual's job is to make this platform 
> accessible...which has never meant blindness exclusively.
His job, according to the article, is, "to lead our effort in making 
sure Red Hat Enterprise Linux and Fedora Workstation has excellent 
accessibility support." To me, the word "lead" suggests that he's not 
doing this alone. Also, as I said above, the foundation of accessibility 
for all disabilities was already laid, by the team at Sun, starting 
roughly 20 years ago. They deliberately chose to start with a generic 
accessibility API, not a specific solution for a particular disability, 
because they understood that a well-designed accessibility API would 
enable independent developers to provide assistive technologies for 
multiple disabilities. And while I have my objections to a specific 
layer of their accessibility architecture, I believe they were on the 
mark here. Finally, I think it's safe to say that blindness is the most 
difficult disability to accommodate for GUI application and toolkit 
developers, as it requires them to provide a complete alternative 
representation of their default, high-bandwidth mode of visual output. 
Once that need has been met by implementing a sufficiently rich 
accessibility API, independent developers can handle other disabilities 
by implementing alternate input methods; indeed, the more comprehensive 
the accessibility API implementation is, the more these other input 
methods have to work with. So I think it's entirely reasonable for Red 
Hat and Lukas to focus for now on making their GUI accessible to blind 
people with a screen reader.
> Further this individual is no volunteer, he is being paid to have up 
> to date information, not just about fedora, but for screen readers he 
> did not even reference like Fenial <spelling>
> He is a single individual, That he has not seen a hardware 
> synthesizer,? due to age does not mean they do not exist.
As I wrote elsewhere, what he is actually paid for is between him and 
Red Hat. If they are paying him exclusively to focus on improving GUI 
accessibility with Orca, I think that's entirely reasonable, as I 
explained above. The fact that his statements on Speakup were slightly 
incomplete, or that he didn't say anything about Fenrir, is annoying to 
those in the know, but not worth getting outraged over. Also note that 
Lukas's primary job is not advocacy or education, but software 
development. Along the way, he will need to educate other developers 
about accessibility, but he's not obligated to comprehensively educate 
the world at large about how blind people use Linux. The details of how 
blind people can access the text console are of little or no interest to 
most platform and application developers, who are the people that Lukas 
would actually need to educate as part of his job. What we really need 
them to understand is how they can make their GUIs accessible, and the 
easier we make that for them, the more accessibility we will get. In 
light of that, dwelling too much on console options could even be 
considered an unnecessary and confusing distraction.
> That attitude is dangerous, because he is educating those outside of 
> the accessibility experiences, who will believe his ignorance is factual.

If people outside the blind community, including platform and 
application developers, believe that speech synthesis hardware is 
vanishingly rare, or that one can't use Speakup with Fedora (but can use 
BRLTTY or Orca), that's of no practical consequence. We just need them 
to know how they can make their GUIs and web applications accessible, 
and to be convinced that it's worth doing. On other disabilities, he said:

    Of course, utilities for other accessibility needs exist as well,
    but I don?t know much about these.

It's good that he's honest about what he doesn't know. I don't believe 
that current gap in knowledge should disqualify him from the job that 
Red Hat actually hired him to do, as opposed to the job that you seem to 
think Red Hat should have hired someone to do. He's going to have his 
hands full just making Fedora Workstation fully accessible to blind 
people. I trust that he'll be willing to learn about other assistive 
technologies when that knowledge is actually necessary.

> may I ask from where he obtained his software engineering degree?
> Studied computer science?? Perhaps disability studies?
Neither Lukas nor Red Hat are obligated to provide this information to 
random bystanders. But here's what I found in my quick research. Lukas 
posted his university thesis on GitHub 
<https://github.com/tyrylu/thesis>, and from that I deduced that he 
earned his bachelor's degree (and perhaps a master's as well) in Applied 
Informatics from Masaryk University in the Czech Republic.
> there are certainly scores of? disabled individuals with these various 
> levels of qualification..even who are Linux users.

Sure. But the question is not whether the job went to the person who 
seems most qualified to an outside observer, or is known in that 
observer's community, but whether the job went to a person who was 
available and interested in the job, is qualified enough (as judged by 
the people doing the hiring), and will get the work done. Red Hat have 
been hiring developers to work on open source for decades, and I trust 
that they are competent to choose a qualified candidate. Beyond that, as 
I stated in my first reply, we can see for ourselves what Lukas has 
previously done online. There's even more of that than I realized when I 
wrote that message. For example, he successfully submitted a few patches 
to the GTK repository, before Red Hat hired him, and he has been 
reporting bugs in GNOME accessibility, particularly on Red Hat's bug 
tracker, for years. And as I said on Friday, his feel-the-streets 
project demonstrates an aptitude for taking on real-world programming 
projects. So I believe Red Hat's decision to hire him was sound. Not 
that they need my approval, or that of anyone on these lists.

Now, I suggest that we let the nit-picking go and just be happy that, 
with financial backing from the leading company in this space, GUI 
accessibility on Linux is moving forward.

Matt

"Accessibility in Fedora Workstation" (fwd)

[blinux-list]

Hey Matt,

Am I way off base here, or are you one of the guys behind the browser 
plugin or whatever it was that allowed me to pay my bills through my 
bank on Linux for the first time way back more than 15 years ago, when 
banks and their online billpay services were still fairly new, but had 
already moved away from the ability to use them with text-mode browsers? 
If so, you are the one I need to thank for actually getting me off the 
Microsoft train completely. I always wanted off, but until your browser 
plugin came along, 2005 I think it was, browser functionality with my 
online banking was the only thing keeping my illegally obtained XP 
partition on my hard drive. So I have you and others like you to thank 
for allowing me to finally wipe it.


I just wanted to say that your response and your attention to detail 
when it comes to this article, as well as your research on the topic and 
even Red Hat and Lukas himself is very well done and well written. 
Regarding accessibility in general, you are saying things that I have 
been saying for a long time, since as much as I loved the text console 
and my ability to use it more productively overall than Microsoft's 
graphical environment, it didn't take me long to see the growing holes 
in the technologies available in text mode that made me have to reboot 
at that time into a system I was trying very hard to leave behind, and 
your browser plugin for Firefox followed by the subsequent development 
of GNOME 2.x, was what got me over that final hurdle. So I just wanted 
to thank you for your work and for your well-thought-out responses and 
research. And if you're not the one behind the browser plugin I used at 
that time, pass my gratitude on to whoever was responsible for it. That 
was certainly the turning point. *claps loudly*


And before I forget, yes, I am a Fedora user these days, although I'm 
primarily on Fedora-MATE-Compiz rather than Workstation. Still, the fact 
that a concerted effort is being made to fix what's broken or has fallen 
into disrepair is extremely good news to me, as I do still keep up with 
GNOME developments despite my strong MATE preference, and it does seem 
that MATE itself can probably benefit from much of this work also, since 
it uses GTK under the hood. I look forward to KDE developments in this 
area as well.

~Kyle

"Accessibility in Fedora Workstation" (fwd)

[blinux-list]

I think Matt managed an ftp site with several Linux images, long before I  knew 
of this forum.
Chime

"Accessibility in Fedora Workstation" (fwd)

[blinux-list]

Nah, I never managed an FTP site, though a couple of my projects back in 
the day were hosted on the Speakup FTP site managed by Kirk Reiser.

Matt

"Accessibility in Fedora Workstation" (fwd)

[blinux-list]

Kyle, unless you happened to use the Linux version of the Mozilla-based 
FreedomBox 2.x self-voicing web browser from Serotek, for the couple of 
years that it was available for that platform (starting in 2004), then I 
believe you have someone else to thank. That was such a long time ago. 
If you did in fact use that product, I'm glad it helped.

Matt

"Accessibility in Fedora Workstation" (fwd)

[blinux-list]

No, it seems you are the person I have to thank. It was indeed the Linux 
version of the FreedomBox browser I used at that time, and it was a game 
changer. I started with Linux in early 2003, finding it to be overall 
far superior to anything I had used before it, mostly Microsoft's Dos, 
Windows 3.1, 98, ME and XP. But I had to keep my less than legal XP and 
my illegally authorized Jaws at that time because of issues I had 
working with banking and other online payment systems and other sites 
that had already lost, or possibly never had, the ability to work well 
in text-mode browsers. Yes, that self-voicing browser, I seem to recall 
it speaking using DECTalk speech, was indeed a game changer, and I see 
that my gratitude is not misplaced after all. Back at that time, I was 
doing everything in text mode and had to startx to get to a graphical 
session that could run the browser, but fortunately, by the time the 
Linux version of the FreedomBox browser stopped working, I was able to 
use Firefox with the screen reader called Gnopernicus, so I never again 
had to find an illegal copy of XP or Jaws so that I could pay my bills 
and shop and other things that required a fully graphical browser. So 
yes, thank you and Serotek for getting me over the last hurdle to using 
Linux full-time, and thanks also to Sun Microsystems, Igalia and many 
others for all the work that has gone into overall accessibility of 
graphical desktop environments and Linux applications since then.~Kyle

"Accessibility in Fedora Workstation" (fwd)

[blinux-list]

Linux for blind general discussion <blinux-list at redhat.com> writes:

> Am I way off base here, or are you one of the guys behind the browser
> plugin or whatever it was that allowed me to pay my bills through my
> bank on Linux for the first time way back more than 15 years ago

As far as I know, Matt was also responsible for zipspeak, which is what
I used to bootstrap myself into Linux way back in 2000.  Back then,
there was a version of Slackware called Zipslack, which could run under
MS-DOS.  Essentially you could run Linux and DOS/Windows side by side.
Zipspeak was a respin of Zipslack that included Speakup.  I spent a
month or so with it before ordering a set of Slackware disks and doing a
full Linux install.  I don't think I ever had a chance to say thank you,
so now I'm doing that publicly.

Folks might also remember Matt for trplayer, which was a Linux console
player for RealAudio streams.

-- Chris

"Accessibility in Fedora Workstation" (fwd)

[blinux-list]

Wow, yes tr player was really nice with an elapsed time-and-other features. As 
far as zipslack, I installed it in a win98 machine, but when I alt+tab it would 
say "apache, but no speech in that tab. I had no idea what to do so I got rid 
of it.
Chime

"Accessibility in Fedora Workstation" (fwd)

[blinux-list]

Folks might also remember Matt for trplayer, which was a Linux console
> player for RealAudio streams.


Wow it has been a long time indeed, but I actually do remember trplayer. 
I didn't use zipslack or zipspeak, but I did start with Slackware 
running the speakup.i kernel. I very quickly switched to Red Hat 9 
because it had more available packages,, but I did have to use the 
telnet install at that time with a second computer that had Speakup 
already installed, because there was no precompiled speakup kernel at 
that time, but I braved kernel compilation to get Red Hat working and 
speaking, especially after I figured out just how easy it was to build 
rpm packages at that time. Actually, it's still fairly easy to build rpm 
packages these days, even though the system is a bit more complex than 
it once was. Fortunately we have really good package management now that 
we didn't have back in those days. Still, even with the evolution of 
Linux over the years, it is still by far the easiest to use, especially 
since I'm a bit too old now to learn the latest Microsoft crap that I 
abandoned so many years ago.

~Kyle

"Accessibility in Fedora Workstation" (fwd)

[blinux-list]

Well, Kyle, I think tr player had a record function, but I don't remember much 
other than we had to keep running real player 8 for its libraries.
Chime

"Accessibility in Fedora Workstation" (fwd)

[blinux-list]

Yes. I seem to remember having to install an rpm package for RealPlayer. 
I think that's what ultimately moved me to Red Hat, so I could get 
trplayer working with the RealPlayer rpm.

~Kyle

"Accessibility in Fedora Workstation" (fwd)

[blinux-list]

(from Matt Campbell)

Thanks all for the appreciation and memories. But I'm afraid that, at 
the risk of getting philosophical, the person who created ZipSpeak and 
trplayer no longer exists. I remember being him, and I still have his 
name and email address, but I'm no longer him. I've changed so much over 
the two decades since then. Nothing makes that clearer than Chris's and 
Karen's concerns about my attitude toward Linux console users and, more 
generally, people who don't follow the whims of mainstream technology 
for whatever reason. And those responses have given me something to 
think about, but I don't yet know what I'll do about it. I said what I 
wanted to say on the Fedora accessibility article, and maybe I shouldn't 
have even let myself get pulled into that thread. But I think I'm now 
philosophically far enough away from many, or even most, in this 
community that I will probably retreat again from this list and other 
related lists.

Matt

"Accessibility in Fedora Workstation" (fwd)

[blinux-list]

For me, I still love Linux enough to keep up with the accessibility stuff,
and even try it every six months or so. However, the last time I tried it,
Orca was so unstable that I managed to crash it by pressing Alt + Tab. Now,
this was on an HP Pavilian laptop, but I don't see how any lack of hardware
drivers would *only* effect accessibility. I tried Fedora, Ubuntu, and I
think Mint. All performed the same. Well, Ubuntu lasted a bit longer but
still, wow. Now, before I get another batch of complain-mail, I'm not
saying Linux isn't usable for those who don't have demanding jobs with
oodles of rolls to fill and hats to wear and people to work with. It's nice
for home users and simple tasks, and even some development, in Emacs or
Nano or VIM or whatever. But it's not ready for *me* yet, and the people
who still develop NVDA addons, apps like Tweesecake and Bookworm, and
remote desktop solutions, all show, to me at least, that Linux isn't ready
for them yet either. I could be wrong. I admit it. But those are my
opinions, backed up by *my* experiences.
Devin Prater
r.d.t.prater at gmail.com




On Mon, Aug 15, 2022 at 8:12 AM Linux for blind general discussion <
blinux-list at redhat.com> wrote:

> (from Matt Campbell)
>
> Thanks all for the appreciation and memories. But I'm afraid that, at
> the risk of getting philosophical, the person who created ZipSpeak and
> trplayer no longer exists. I remember being him, and I still have his
> name and email address, but I'm no longer him. I've changed so much over
> the two decades since then. Nothing makes that clearer than Chris's and
> Karen's concerns about my attitude toward Linux console users and, more
> generally, people who don't follow the whims of mainstream technology
> for whatever reason. And those responses have given me something to
> think about, but I don't yet know what I'll do about it. I said what I
> wanted to say on the Fedora accessibility article, and maybe I shouldn't
> have even let myself get pulled into that thread. But I think I'm now
> philosophically far enough away from many, or even most, in this
> community that I will probably retreat again from this list and other
> related lists.
>
> Matt
>
> _______________________________________________
> Blinux-list mailing list
> Blinux-list at redhat.com
> https://listman.redhat.com/mailman/listinfo/blinux-list
>
>

"Accessibility in Fedora Workstation" (fwd)

[blinux-list]

Hi all.
I've been using linux at work and at home for at least 12 years.
I certainly encounter accessibility problems as I also encountered when 
I was a windows user.
In my opinion, accessibility in linux has improved a lot, even because 
there seems to be a greater interest in the community in using linux.
By the way, this message was written and sent from a computer with 
fedora workstation version 36 installed.

On 8/15/22 10:25, Linux for blind general discussion wrote:
> For me, I still love Linux enough to keep up with the accessibility stuff,
> and even try it every six months or so. However, the last time I tried it,
> Orca was so unstable that I managed to crash it by pressing Alt + Tab. Now,
> this was on an HP Pavilian laptop, but I don't see how any lack of hardware
> drivers would *only* effect accessibility. I tried Fedora, Ubuntu, and I
> think Mint. All performed the same. Well, Ubuntu lasted a bit longer but
> still, wow. Now, before I get another batch of complain-mail, I'm not
> saying Linux isn't usable for those who don't have demanding jobs with
> oodles of rolls to fill and hats to wear and people to work with. It's nice
> for home users and simple tasks, and even some development, in Emacs or
> Nano or VIM or whatever. But it's not ready for *me* yet, and the people
> who still develop NVDA addons, apps like Tweesecake and Bookworm, and
> remote desktop solutions, all show, to me at least, that Linux isn't ready
> for them yet either. I could be wrong. I admit it. But those are my
> opinions, backed up by *my* experiences.
> Devin Prater
> r.d.t.prater at gmail.com
>
>
>
>
> On Mon, Aug 15, 2022 at 8:12 AM Linux for blind general discussion <
> blinux-list at redhat.com> wrote:
>
>> (from Matt Campbell)
>>
>> Thanks all for the appreciation and memories. But I'm afraid that, at
>> the risk of getting philosophical, the person who created ZipSpeak and
>> trplayer no longer exists. I remember being him, and I still have his
>> name and email address, but I'm no longer him. I've changed so much over
>> the two decades since then. Nothing makes that clearer than Chris's and
>> Karen's concerns about my attitude toward Linux console users and, more
>> generally, people who don't follow the whims of mainstream technology
>> for whatever reason. And those responses have given me something to
>> think about, but I don't yet know what I'll do about it. I said what I
>> wanted to say on the Fedora accessibility article, and maybe I shouldn't
>> have even let myself get pulled into that thread. But I think I'm now
>> philosophically far enough away from many, or even most, in this
>> community that I will probably retreat again from this list and other
>> related lists.
>>
>> Matt
>>
>> _______________________________________________
>> Blinux-list mailing list
>> Blinux-list at redhat.com
>> https://listman.redhat.com/mailman/listinfo/blinux-list
>>
>>
> _______________________________________________
> Blinux-list mailing list
> Blinux-list at redhat.com
> https://listman.redhat.com/mailman/listinfo/blinux-list
>

"Accessibility in Fedora Workstation" (fwd)

[blinux-list]

Kyle, I have no idea what's so different about our computers. I wish I knew
enough to debug what's going so wrong on mine to cause Orca to crash so
frequently. But I can't use Linux in this current situation, so I'll wait a
while, and try again, maybe after accessibility fixes happen in Gnome and
such.
Devin Prater
r.d.t.prater at gmail.com




On Mon, Aug 15, 2022 at 12:09 PM Linux for blind general discussion <
blinux-list at redhat.com> wrote:

> Hi all.
> I've been using linux at work and at home for at least 12 years.
> I certainly encounter accessibility problems as I also encountered when
> I was a windows user.
> In my opinion, accessibility in linux has improved a lot, even because
> there seems to be a greater interest in the community in using linux.
> By the way, this message was written and sent from a computer with
> fedora workstation version 36 installed.
>
> On 8/15/22 10:25, Linux for blind general discussion wrote:
> > For me, I still love Linux enough to keep up with the accessibility
> stuff,
> > and even try it every six months or so. However, the last time I tried
> it,
> > Orca was so unstable that I managed to crash it by pressing Alt + Tab.
> Now,
> > this was on an HP Pavilian laptop, but I don't see how any lack of
> hardware
> > drivers would *only* effect accessibility. I tried Fedora, Ubuntu, and I
> > think Mint. All performed the same. Well, Ubuntu lasted a bit longer but
> > still, wow. Now, before I get another batch of complain-mail, I'm not
> > saying Linux isn't usable for those who don't have demanding jobs with
> > oodles of rolls to fill and hats to wear and people to work with. It's
> nice
> > for home users and simple tasks, and even some development, in Emacs or
> > Nano or VIM or whatever. But it's not ready for *me* yet, and the people
> > who still develop NVDA addons, apps like Tweesecake and Bookworm, and
> > remote desktop solutions, all show, to me at least, that Linux isn't
> ready
> > for them yet either. I could be wrong. I admit it. But those are my
> > opinions, backed up by *my* experiences.
> > Devin Prater
> > r.d.t.prater at gmail.com
> >
> >
> >
> >
> > On Mon, Aug 15, 2022 at 8:12 AM Linux for blind general discussion <
> > blinux-list at redhat.com> wrote:
> >
> >> (from Matt Campbell)
> >>
> >> Thanks all for the appreciation and memories. But I'm afraid that, at
> >> the risk of getting philosophical, the person who created ZipSpeak and
> >> trplayer no longer exists. I remember being him, and I still have his
> >> name and email address, but I'm no longer him. I've changed so much over
> >> the two decades since then. Nothing makes that clearer than Chris's and
> >> Karen's concerns about my attitude toward Linux console users and, more
> >> generally, people who don't follow the whims of mainstream technology
> >> for whatever reason. And those responses have given me something to
> >> think about, but I don't yet know what I'll do about it. I said what I
> >> wanted to say on the Fedora accessibility article, and maybe I shouldn't
> >> have even let myself get pulled into that thread. But I think I'm now
> >> philosophically far enough away from many, or even most, in this
> >> community that I will probably retreat again from this list and other
> >> related lists.
> >>
> >> Matt
> >>
> >> _______________________________________________
> >> Blinux-list mailing list
> >> Blinux-list at redhat.com
> >> https://listman.redhat.com/mailman/listinfo/blinux-list
> >>
> >>
> > _______________________________________________
> > Blinux-list mailing list
> > Blinux-list at redhat.com
> > https://listman.redhat.com/mailman/listinfo/blinux-list
> >
>
> _______________________________________________
> Blinux-list mailing list
> Blinux-list at redhat.com
> https://listman.redhat.com/mailman/listinfo/blinux-list
>
>

"Accessibility in Fedora Workstation" (fwd)

[blinux-list]

See I'm curious. I've been watching this thread and figured I'd leap in. 
My setup is I havve a WM going, Ratpoison in my case find terminal 
things easier to use, for example pipe-viewer for Youtube videos without 
fighting with the frankly, clunky and obtuse Youtube main site that's 
trying to force me to bee Google's slave.


So I'm in this weird spot where I'm using, say, Firefox or web browsing, 
but say if I download a news article or something for, let's say, a blog 
post and I need to quickly grab text I find it quicker for me to fire up 
w3m in my terminal, select what I want and copy it that way, than use 
Firefox to do the same task.


Or for email, I prefer the quickness and ease of use of Mutt, I can go 
in, delete a bunch of emails for example, without having to deal with 
Thunderbird/Evolution's laginess and Orca freezing up in a folder with 
thousands of messages for example.


I'd argue that trying to force GUI usage isn't really the right 
approach, instead more of okay, here's a set of tools, some or CLI, some 
are GUI, use what works for you and your use cases. I can't use GUI 
tools when SSHing into a machine really, so personally, I'm in this 
hybrid sort of setup where I do have a window manager and access to 
graphical apps, but I prefer to use the terminal and CLI for several 
things that I find too clunky with a desktop. That and I don't have to 
deal withh things such as Orca getting stuck in a CLI app, that doesn't 
happen at all.

So TL:DR Use what works for you no matter if it's CLI or GUI, use what 
suits you best IMO


On 8/15/22 14:12, Linux for blind general discussion wrote:
> (from Matt Campbell)
>
> Thanks all for the appreciation and memories. But I'm afraid that, at 
> the risk of getting philosophical, the person who created ZipSpeak and 
> trplayer no longer exists. I remember being him, and I still have his 
> name and email address, but I'm no longer him. I've changed so much 
> over the two decades since then. Nothing makes that clearer than 
> Chris's and Karen's concerns about my attitude toward Linux console 
> users and, more generally, people who don't follow the whims of 
> mainstream technology for whatever reason. And those responses have 
> given me something to think about, but I don't yet know what I'll do 
> about it. I said what I wanted to say on the Fedora accessibility 
> article, and maybe I shouldn't have even let myself get pulled into 
> that thread. But I think I'm now philosophically far enough away from 
> many, or even most, in this community that I will probably retreat 
> again from this list and other related lists.
>
> Matt
>
> _______________________________________________
> Blinux-list mailing list
> Blinux-list at redhat.com
> https://listman.redhat.com/mailman/listinfo/blinux-list
>

"Accessibility in Fedora Workstation" (fwd)

[blinux-list]

Well, maybe 2years ago some1 wrote me-and-suggested I can run "rdrview" to just 
enjoy the plain-text of an article. For the most part you would want to run as 
an external in L Y N X. There are certainly challenging sites where it won't 
work or you get stuck in a loop. Ok, from looking over its man-page, stripping 
off the portion of an url for filing bugs, you can probably grab from
https://github.com/eafer/rdrview/
For myself, after `so many years of a lack of printer friendly article views, 
this is really a game changer. In some cases, you may need to run by disabling 
a sandbox.
Chime

"Accessibility in Fedora Workstation" (fwd)

[blinux-list]

Valiant8086 here. I'm 99 percent a Windows user, and I use command line 
a fair bit honestly. Just as you mentioned, what ever tool seems most 
efficient and friendly for the user is what they should be using.



Cheers:
Aaron Spears, AKA Valiant8086 General Partner at Valiant Galaxy Associates "we make (VERY GOOD AUDIOGAMES) for the blind comunity" http://valiantGalaxy.com

On 8/15/2022 11:01 AM, Linux for blind general discussion wrote:
> See I'm curious. I've been watching this thread and figured I'd leap 
> in. My setup is I havve a WM going, Ratpoison in my case find terminal 
> things easier to use, for example pipe-viewer for Youtube videos 
> without fighting with the frankly, clunky and obtuse Youtube main site 
> that's trying to force me to bee Google's slave.
>
>
> So I'm in this weird spot where I'm using, say, Firefox or web 
> browsing, but say if I download a news article or something for, let's 
> say, a blog post and I need to quickly grab text I find it quicker for 
> me to fire up w3m in my terminal, select what I want and copy it that 
> way, than use Firefox to do the same task.
>
>
> Or for email, I prefer the quickness and ease of use of Mutt, I can go 
> in, delete a bunch of emails for example, without having to deal with 
> Thunderbird/Evolution's laginess and Orca freezing up in a folder with 
> thousands of messages for example.
>
>
> I'd argue that trying to force GUI usage isn't really the right 
> approach, instead more of okay, here's a set of tools, some or CLI, 
> some are GUI, use what works for you and your use cases. I can't use 
> GUI tools when SSHing into a machine really, so personally, I'm in 
> this hybrid sort of setup where I do have a window manager and access 
> to graphical apps, but I prefer to use the terminal and CLI for 
> several things that I find too clunky with a desktop. That and I don't 
> have to deal withh things such as Orca getting stuck in a CLI app, 
> that doesn't happen at all.
>
> So TL:DR Use what works for you no matter if it's CLI or GUI, use what 
> suits you best IMO
>
>
> On 8/15/22 14:12, Linux for blind general discussion wrote:
>> (from Matt Campbell)
>>
>> Thanks all for the appreciation and memories. But I'm afraid that, at 
>> the risk of getting philosophical, the person who created ZipSpeak 
>> and trplayer no longer exists. I remember being him, and I still have 
>> his name and email address, but I'm no longer him. I've changed so 
>> much over the two decades since then. Nothing makes that clearer than 
>> Chris's and Karen's concerns about my attitude toward Linux console 
>> users and, more generally, people who don't follow the whims of 
>> mainstream technology for whatever reason. And those responses have 
>> given me something to think about, but I don't yet know what I'll do 
>> about it. I said what I wanted to say on the Fedora accessibility 
>> article, and maybe I shouldn't have even let myself get pulled into 
>> that thread. But I think I'm now philosophically far enough away from 
>> many, or even most, in this community that I will probably retreat 
>> again from this list and other related lists.
>>
>> Matt
>>
>> _______________________________________________
>> Blinux-list mailing list
>> Blinux-list at redhat.com
>> https://listman.redhat.com/mailman/listinfo/blinux-list
>>
>
> _______________________________________________
> Blinux-list mailing list
> Blinux-list at redhat.com
> https://listman.redhat.com/mailman/listinfo/blinux-list
>

"Accessibility in Fedora Workstation" (fwd)

[blinux-list]

Matt Campbell <mattcampbell at pobox.com> writes:

> I took this position in 2000, but for the last decade or more, access to a
> GUI has been widely available to blind people at no extra cost. (If there
> are blind people today who are truly stuck on old hardware with no
> accessible GUI, that's unfortunate, but I think this is one case where the
> best solution is charity, not expecting the rest of the world to accommodate
> this situation forever. That's no different than for sighted people stuck on
> very old hardware.)

I'm sorry, but this is a very irresponsible attitude, given the impact
of climate change.  And now on top of that, the world is coping with
supply chain issues.  "Chuck it in a landfill because it won't run the
latest Electron app" is deeply unacceptable.

I do agree with you about the importance of GUI accessibility, even
though I only use one when circumstances force me to it.  I'm somewhat
optimistic about the recent news.

-- Chris

"Accessibility in Fedora Workstation" (fwd)

[blinux-list]

I echo this attitude concern, but for a different reason.
who gets to decide what bodies  deserve a place at the table?
because of a vascular accident in an eye surgery, I experience a brain 
anomaly where certain frequencies stimulate the dizzy centres of my brain.
allot of those frequencies happen in poorly designed software  speech 
configurations for Linux.
Meaning, because little effort has been made to give choices for Linux 
speech in the gui, if I wanted to use this, I would have to choose between 
a Linux computer and hospitalization.
compare this with apple hardware.
I recently aquired a  mid 2012 macbook pro which, because of how the 
voiceover   sound is produced is perfectly safe for my use..and I can 
still run  only one  Mac os off  from the last pre m.1 systems.
i have an associate in my office running their business on a 2011 macbook 
pro.
Indeed climate change, landfill issues, available resources in terms of 
training and access all over the world.
And, for many how their body works mandates choices.
There was a time when one of the great things about Linux was that it 
could be used to breathe  new life into older hardware.  especially 
helpful in  non-western countries where getting the fastest car on the 
road was costly.
If your attitude was the rule though, those folks regardless of abilities 
might never get computers at all.
  take your attitude and say substitute braille.
  Statistically less than 10% of the blindness community are braille users, 
meaning the majority do not  use it, or even learn it if newly blinded.
so, its unfortunate some blind people are still stuck needing volumes and 
volumes of braille, but  to expect the world to confirm to such a limited 
use language etc.
Speaking personally, especially given how flexible Linux is  supposed to 
be?
deciding some have no place at your gui table is little different than 
deciding those who are visible minorities, no matter the location, have no 
place at the table either.
  Karen



On Sun, 14 Aug 2022, Chris Brannon wrote:

> Matt Campbell <mattcampbell at pobox.com> writes:
>
>> I took this position in 2000, but for the last decade or more, access to a
>> GUI has been widely available to blind people at no extra cost. (If there
>> are blind people today who are truly stuck on old hardware with no
>> accessible GUI, that's unfortunate, but I think this is one case where the
>> best solution is charity, not expecting the rest of the world to accommodate
>> this situation forever. That's no different than for sighted people stuck on
>> very old hardware.)
>
> I'm sorry, but this is a very irresponsible attitude, given the impact
> of climate change.  And now on top of that, the world is coping with
> supply chain issues.  "Chuck it in a landfill because it won't run the
> latest Electron app" is deeply unacceptable.
>
> I do agree with you about the importance of GUI accessibility, even
> though I only use one when circumstances force me to it.  I'm somewhat
> optimistic about the recent news.
>
> -- Chris
>
>

"Accessibility in Fedora Workstation" (fwd)

[blinux-list]

I mean, we don't have to have volumes of Braille anymore, just a Braille
Display, which work great with BRLTTY.
Devin Prater
r.d.t.prater at gmail.com




On Sun, Aug 14, 2022 at 6:21 PM Linux for blind general discussion <
blinux-list at redhat.com> wrote:

> I echo this attitude concern, but for a different reason.
> who gets to decide what bodies  deserve a place at the table?
> because of a vascular accident in an eye surgery, I experience a brain
> anomaly where certain frequencies stimulate the dizzy centres of my brain.
> allot of those frequencies happen in poorly designed software  speech
> configurations for Linux.
> Meaning, because little effort has been made to give choices for Linux
> speech in the gui, if I wanted to use this, I would have to choose between
> a Linux computer and hospitalization.
> compare this with apple hardware.
> I recently aquired a  mid 2012 macbook pro which, because of how the
> voiceover   sound is produced is perfectly safe for my use..and I can
> still run  only one  Mac os off  from the last pre m.1 systems.
> i have an associate in my office running their business on a 2011 macbook
> pro.
> Indeed climate change, landfill issues, available resources in terms of
> training and access all over the world.
> And, for many how their body works mandates choices.
> There was a time when one of the great things about Linux was that it
> could be used to breathe  new life into older hardware.  especially
> helpful in  non-western countries where getting the fastest car on the
> road was costly.
> If your attitude was the rule though, those folks regardless of abilities
> might never get computers at all.
>   take your attitude and say substitute braille.
>   Statistically less than 10% of the blindness community are braille
> users,
> meaning the majority do not  use it, or even learn it if newly blinded.
> so, its unfortunate some blind people are still stuck needing volumes and
> volumes of braille, but  to expect the world to confirm to such a limited
> use language etc.
> Speaking personally, especially given how flexible Linux is  supposed to
> be?
> deciding some have no place at your gui table is little different than
> deciding those who are visible minorities, no matter the location, have no
> place at the table either.
>   Karen
>
>
>
> On Sun, 14 Aug 2022, Chris Brannon wrote:
>
> > Matt Campbell <mattcampbell at pobox.com> writes:
> >
> >> I took this position in 2000, but for the last decade or more, access
> to a
> >> GUI has been widely available to blind people at no extra cost. (If
> there
> >> are blind people today who are truly stuck on old hardware with no
> >> accessible GUI, that's unfortunate, but I think this is one case where
> the
> >> best solution is charity, not expecting the rest of the world to
> accommodate
> >> this situation forever. That's no different than for sighted people
> stuck on
> >> very old hardware.)
> >
> > I'm sorry, but this is a very irresponsible attitude, given the impact
> > of climate change.  And now on top of that, the world is coping with
> > supply chain issues.  "Chuck it in a landfill because it won't run the
> > latest Electron app" is deeply unacceptable.
> >
> > I do agree with you about the importance of GUI accessibility, even
> > though I only use one when circumstances force me to it.  I'm somewhat
> > optimistic about the recent news.
> >
> > -- Chris
> >
> >
>
> _______________________________________________
> Blinux-list mailing list
> Blinux-list at redhat.com
> https://listman.redhat.com/mailman/listinfo/blinux-list
>
>

"Accessibility in Fedora Workstation" (fwd)

[blinux-list]

....and the average cost of a braille display?
and if the material cannot be accessed in Linux?
I could do this all day long.
its wonderful you have that solution for you...but everyone deserves their 
solution as well, especially if they are in the majority.
The red lobster where I live  provides braille menus.
Almost always when I visit, the server brings me one.
Without fail, i tell that server how glad I am they provide this menu for 
the comparatively few who need it, because they deserve the experience of 
ordering as they personally define independence.
It is unfortunate though, that for some, my not being blind as they define 
it, means I  cannot be expected to define independence as my body 
requires.



On Sun, 14 Aug 2022, Linux for blind general discussion wrote:

> I mean, we don't have to have volumes of Braille anymore, just a Braille
> Display, which work great with BRLTTY.
> Devin Prater
> r.d.t.prater at gmail.com
>
>
>
>
> On Sun, Aug 14, 2022 at 6:21 PM Linux for blind general discussion <
> blinux-list at redhat.com> wrote:
>
>> I echo this attitude concern, but for a different reason.
>> who gets to decide what bodies  deserve a place at the table?
>> because of a vascular accident in an eye surgery, I experience a brain
>> anomaly where certain frequencies stimulate the dizzy centres of my brain.
>> allot of those frequencies happen in poorly designed software  speech
>> configurations for Linux.
>> Meaning, because little effort has been made to give choices for Linux
>> speech in the gui, if I wanted to use this, I would have to choose between
>> a Linux computer and hospitalization.
>> compare this with apple hardware.
>> I recently aquired a  mid 2012 macbook pro which, because of how the
>> voiceover   sound is produced is perfectly safe for my use..and I can
>> still run  only one  Mac os off  from the last pre m.1 systems.
>> i have an associate in my office running their business on a 2011 macbook
>> pro.
>> Indeed climate change, landfill issues, available resources in terms of
>> training and access all over the world.
>> And, for many how their body works mandates choices.
>> There was a time when one of the great things about Linux was that it
>> could be used to breathe  new life into older hardware.  especially
>> helpful in  non-western countries where getting the fastest car on the
>> road was costly.
>> If your attitude was the rule though, those folks regardless of abilities
>> might never get computers at all.
>>   take your attitude and say substitute braille.
>>   Statistically less than 10% of the blindness community are braille
>> users,
>> meaning the majority do not  use it, or even learn it if newly blinded.
>> so, its unfortunate some blind people are still stuck needing volumes and
>> volumes of braille, but  to expect the world to confirm to such a limited
>> use language etc.
>> Speaking personally, especially given how flexible Linux is  supposed to
>> be?
>> deciding some have no place at your gui table is little different than
>> deciding those who are visible minorities, no matter the location, have no
>> place at the table either.
>>   Karen
>>
>>
>>
>> On Sun, 14 Aug 2022, Chris Brannon wrote:
>>
>>> Matt Campbell <mattcampbell at pobox.com> writes:
>>>
>>>> I took this position in 2000, but for the last decade or more, access
>> to a
>>>> GUI has been widely available to blind people at no extra cost. (If
>> there
>>>> are blind people today who are truly stuck on old hardware with no
>>>> accessible GUI, that's unfortunate, but I think this is one case where
>> the
>>>> best solution is charity, not expecting the rest of the world to
>> accommodate
>>>> this situation forever. That's no different than for sighted people
>> stuck on
>>>> very old hardware.)
>>>
>>> I'm sorry, but this is a very irresponsible attitude, given the impact
>>> of climate change.  And now on top of that, the world is coping with
>>> supply chain issues.  "Chuck it in a landfill because it won't run the
>>> latest Electron app" is deeply unacceptable.
>>>
>>> I do agree with you about the importance of GUI accessibility, even
>>> though I only use one when circumstances force me to it.  I'm somewhat
>>> optimistic about the recent news.
>>>
>>> -- Chris
>>>
>>>
>>
>> _______________________________________________
>> Blinux-list mailing list
>> Blinux-list at redhat.com
>> https://listman.redhat.com/mailman/listinfo/blinux-list
>>
>>
> _______________________________________________
> Blinux-list mailing list
> Blinux-list at redhat.com
> https://listman.redhat.com/mailman/listinfo/blinux-list
>
>

"Accessibility in Fedora Workstation" (fwd)

[blinux-list]

Actually, that will be true only when sighted people don't use paper 
print.? I'm very glad I have Braille devices I can use to read a great 
deal of material that hasn't been put into hardcopy, but it is often 
much better for me to read those fine Braille volumes.? Plus, their 
batteries don't die.? Yes, Braille paper ages and dies, too, but not 
usually in the way electronic Braille devices can do it.


Al


On 8/14/22 19:26, Linux for blind general discussion wrote:
> I mean, we don't have to have volumes of Braille anymore, just a Braille
> Display, which work great with BRLTTY.
> Devin Prater
> r.d.t.prater at gmail.com
>
>
>
>
> On Sun, Aug 14, 2022 at 6:21 PM Linux for blind general discussion <
> blinux-list at redhat.com> wrote:
>
>> I echo this attitude concern, but for a different reason.
>> who gets to decide what bodies  deserve a place at the table?
>> because of a vascular accident in an eye surgery, I experience a brain
>> anomaly where certain frequencies stimulate the dizzy centres of my brain.
>> allot of those frequencies happen in poorly designed software  speech
>> configurations for Linux.
>> Meaning, because little effort has been made to give choices for Linux
>> speech in the gui, if I wanted to use this, I would have to choose between
>> a Linux computer and hospitalization.
>> compare this with apple hardware.
>> I recently aquired a  mid 2012 macbook pro which, because of how the
>> voiceover   sound is produced is perfectly safe for my use..and I can
>> still run  only one  Mac os off  from the last pre m.1 systems.
>> i have an associate in my office running their business on a 2011 macbook
>> pro.
>> Indeed climate change, landfill issues, available resources in terms of
>> training and access all over the world.
>> And, for many how their body works mandates choices.
>> There was a time when one of the great things about Linux was that it
>> could be used to breathe  new life into older hardware.  especially
>> helpful in  non-western countries where getting the fastest car on the
>> road was costly.
>> If your attitude was the rule though, those folks regardless of abilities
>> might never get computers at all.
>>    take your attitude and say substitute braille.
>>    Statistically less than 10% of the blindness community are braille
>> users,
>> meaning the majority do not  use it, or even learn it if newly blinded.
>> so, its unfortunate some blind people are still stuck needing volumes and
>> volumes of braille, but  to expect the world to confirm to such a limited
>> use language etc.
>> Speaking personally, especially given how flexible Linux is  supposed to
>> be?
>> deciding some have no place at your gui table is little different than
>> deciding those who are visible minorities, no matter the location, have no
>> place at the table either.
>>    Karen
>>
>>
>>
>> On Sun, 14 Aug 2022, Chris Brannon wrote:
>>
>>> Matt Campbell <mattcampbell at pobox.com> writes:
>>>
>>>> I took this position in 2000, but for the last decade or more, access
>> to a
>>>> GUI has been widely available to blind people at no extra cost. (If
>> there
>>>> are blind people today who are truly stuck on old hardware with no
>>>> accessible GUI, that's unfortunate, but I think this is one case where
>> the
>>>> best solution is charity, not expecting the rest of the world to
>> accommodate
>>>> this situation forever. That's no different than for sighted people
>> stuck on
>>>> very old hardware.)
>>> I'm sorry, but this is a very irresponsible attitude, given the impact
>>> of climate change.  And now on top of that, the world is coping with
>>> supply chain issues.  "Chuck it in a landfill because it won't run the
>>> latest Electron app" is deeply unacceptable.
>>>
>>> I do agree with you about the importance of GUI accessibility, even
>>> though I only use one when circumstances force me to it.  I'm somewhat
>>> optimistic about the recent news.
>>>
>>> -- Chris
>>>
>>>
>> _______________________________________________
>> Blinux-list mailing list
>> Blinux-list at redhat.com
>> https://listman.redhat.com/mailman/listinfo/blinux-list
>>
>>
> _______________________________________________
> Blinux-list mailing list
> Blinux-list at redhat.com
> https://listman.redhat.com/mailman/listinfo/blinux-list
>

"Accessibility in Fedora Workstation" (fwd)

[blinux-list]

John,



On Mon, 15 Aug 2022, John G. Heim wrote:

> Linux is free, open source software. Much of it is written by volunteers. The 
> Linux community simply isn't comperable to Apple or Microsoft. Apple and 
> Microsoft have ethical obligations that do not apply to the Linux community. 
I am sorry, but this is simply not correct.

Linus began developing Linux, marketed as a free edition of
UNIX in 1991.
Since then the system is frankly used in countless ways,
including products that carry legal obligations to be inclusive.

Here is an article listing but a few.   Searching uses for Linux?
In your preferred tool will lead to many more such articles.


    From your kitchen to the reaches of outer space, Linux gets
    everywhere...

25 Awesome Things Powered By Linux
By Joey Sneddon ? Updated 5 January 2021

https://www.omgubuntu.co.uk/2016/08/25-awesome-unexpected-things-powered-linux

A few from this list alone.

1. Super Computers
    Yep, every single one of the world's top 500 supercomputers
use Linux.

2. NASA
    From storing data sent down from satellites and telescopes, to
    crunching that data for research institutions and the greater
public to use, NASA relies heavily on Linux.

6. Roku
    All Roku hardware runs a custom, heavily modified version of
Linux called `Roku OS'.

8. Smart TVs
    Linux doesn't just power a plethora of set-top boxes. A number
of leading TV manufacturers offer a built-in `smart TV'
experience Using Linux.
    From LG (who use WebOS) to Samsung (who use Tizen) to Sharp,
HiSense, Philips and Panasonic... The list of gogglebox giants
making use of Linux goes on!

10. The Amazon Kindle
    The Kindle is almost a byword for digital e-readers, but few
give much thought to the embedded operating system it runs, but
it is Linux. Some hackers even managed to install Ubuntu on the
early-gen Kindles.
    The very first version of the Kindle OS used Linux kernel
v2.6.26,
    while the most recent, the Kindle Oasis, uses v3.0.35.

15. Self Driving Cars

    Google's autonomous car computers run Linux, as do prototype
    self-driving vehicles from General Motors (GM) and Volkswagen.

19. Advanced Air Traffic Control

    The Federal Aviation Administration of the United States
switched to Linux back in 2006. It runs custom-built software to
manage and display air traffic flow - software that runs on
Linux.

20. Chromebooks
    You'd be surprised how many people think Chromebooks run
Android -- they don't. Chromebooks run Chrome OS, a Linux
distribution based on but heavily modified from) Gentoo.

23. U.S. Department of Defense

    The United States Department of Defense is the single biggest
customer of Red Hat Linux.

Honestly I have no idea where you get the sense that Linux is run
by volunteers.  When IBM bought Red Hat, the company behind
Fedora in 2019, they paid 34 billion dollars for the company. 
Meaning this individual is likely drawing an amazing wage to
define Accessibility in Linux by  their very small and limited
dictionary.


Karen




> On 8/14/22 18:21, Karen Lewellen wrote:
>>  I echo this attitude concern, but for a different reason.
>>  who gets to decide what bodies? deserve a place at the table?
>>  because of a vascular accident in an eye surgery, I experience a brain
>>  anomaly where certain frequencies stimulate the dizzy centres of my brain.
>>  allot of those frequencies happen in poorly designed software speech
>>  configurations for Linux.
>>  Meaning, because little effort has been made to give choices for Linux
>>  speech in the gui, if I wanted to use this, I would have to choose between
>>  a Linux computer and hospitalization.
>>  compare this with apple hardware.
>>  I recently aquired a? mid 2012 macbook pro which, because of how the
>>  voiceover?? sound is produced is perfectly safe for my use..and I can
>>  still run? only one? Mac os off? from the last pre m.1 systems.
>>  i have an associate in my office running their business on a 2011 macbook
>>  pro.
>>  Indeed climate change, landfill issues, available resources in terms of
>>  training and access all over the world.
>>  And, for many how their body works mandates choices.
>>  There was a time when one of the great things about Linux was that it
>>  could be used to breathe? new life into older hardware. especially
>>  helpful in? non-western countries where getting the fastest car on the
>>  road was costly.
>>  If your attitude was the rule though, those folks regardless of abilities
>>  might never get computers at all.
>>  ?take your attitude and say substitute braille.
>>  ?Statistically less than 10% of the blindness community are braille
>>  users, meaning the majority do not? use it, or even learn it if newly
>>  blinded.
>>  so, its unfortunate some blind people are still stuck needing volumes and
>>  volumes of braille, but? to expect the world to confirm to such a limited
>>  use language etc.
>>  Speaking personally, especially given how flexible Linux is supposed to
>>  be?
>>  deciding some have no place at your gui table is little different than
>>  deciding those who are visible minorities, no matter the location, have no
>>  place at the table either.
>>  ?Karen
>> 
>> 
>>
>>  On Sun, 14 Aug 2022, Chris Brannon wrote:
>> 
>> >  Matt Campbell <mattcampbell at pobox.com> writes:
>> > 
>> > >  I took this position in 2000, but for the last decade or more, access 
>> > >  to a
>> > >  GUI has been widely available to blind people at no extra cost. (If 
>> > >  there
>> > >  are blind people today who are truly stuck on old hardware with no
>> > >  accessible GUI, that's unfortunate, but I think this is one case where 
>> > >  the
>> > >  best solution is charity, not expecting the rest of the world to 
>> > >  accommodate
>> > >  this situation forever. That's no different than for sighted people 
>> > >  stuck on
>> > >  very old hardware.)
>> > 
>> >  I'm sorry, but this is a very irresponsible attitude, given the impact
>> >  of climate change.? And now on top of that, the world is coping with
>> >  supply chain issues.? "Chuck it in a landfill because it won't run the
>> >  latest Electron app" is deeply unacceptable.
>> > 
>> >  I do agree with you about the importance of GUI accessibility, even
>> >  though I only use one when circumstances force me to it.? I'm somewhat
>> >  optimistic about the recent news.
>> > 
>> >  -- Chris
>> > 
>> > 
>> 
>
>

"Accessibility in Fedora Workstation" (fwd)

[blinux-list]

You'd be surprised how little the people on the bottom, like accessibility
folks, get paid. He probably isn't really making all that much.
Devin Prater
r.d.t.prater at gmail.com




On Tue, Aug 16, 2022 at 1:44 PM Linux for blind general discussion <
blinux-list at redhat.com> wrote:

> John,
>
>
>
> On Mon, 15 Aug 2022, John G. Heim wrote:
>
> > Linux is free, open source software. Much of it is written by
> volunteers. The
> > Linux community simply isn't comperable to Apple or Microsoft. Apple and
> > Microsoft have ethical obligations that do not apply to the Linux
> community.
> I am sorry, but this is simply not correct.
>
> Linus began developing Linux, marketed as a free edition of
> UNIX in 1991.
> Since then the system is frankly used in countless ways,
> including products that carry legal obligations to be inclusive.
>
> Here is an article listing but a few.   Searching uses for Linux?
> In your preferred tool will lead to many more such articles.
>
>
>     From your kitchen to the reaches of outer space, Linux gets
>     everywhere...
>
> 25 Awesome Things Powered By Linux
> By Joey Sneddon ? Updated 5 January 2021
>
>
> https://www.omgubuntu.co.uk/2016/08/25-awesome-unexpected-things-powered-linux
>
> A few from this list alone.
>
> 1. Super Computers
>     Yep, every single one of the world's top 500 supercomputers
> use Linux.
>
> 2. NASA
>     From storing data sent down from satellites and telescopes, to
>     crunching that data for research institutions and the greater
> public to use, NASA relies heavily on Linux.
>
> 6. Roku
>     All Roku hardware runs a custom, heavily modified version of
> Linux called `Roku OS'.
>
> 8. Smart TVs
>     Linux doesn't just power a plethora of set-top boxes. A number
> of leading TV manufacturers offer a built-in `smart TV'
> experience Using Linux.
>     From LG (who use WebOS) to Samsung (who use Tizen) to Sharp,
> HiSense, Philips and Panasonic... The list of gogglebox giants
> making use of Linux goes on!
>
> 10. The Amazon Kindle
>     The Kindle is almost a byword for digital e-readers, but few
> give much thought to the embedded operating system it runs, but
> it is Linux. Some hackers even managed to install Ubuntu on the
> early-gen Kindles.
>     The very first version of the Kindle OS used Linux kernel
> v2.6.26,
>     while the most recent, the Kindle Oasis, uses v3.0.35.
>
> 15. Self Driving Cars
>
>     Google's autonomous car computers run Linux, as do prototype
>     self-driving vehicles from General Motors (GM) and Volkswagen.
>
> 19. Advanced Air Traffic Control
>
>     The Federal Aviation Administration of the United States
> switched to Linux back in 2006. It runs custom-built software to
> manage and display air traffic flow - software that runs on
> Linux.
>
> 20. Chromebooks
>     You'd be surprised how many people think Chromebooks run
> Android -- they don't. Chromebooks run Chrome OS, a Linux
> distribution based on but heavily modified from) Gentoo.
>
> 23. U.S. Department of Defense
>
>     The United States Department of Defense is the single biggest
> customer of Red Hat Linux.
>
> Honestly I have no idea where you get the sense that Linux is run
> by volunteers.  When IBM bought Red Hat, the company behind
> Fedora in 2019, they paid 34 billion dollars for the company.
> Meaning this individual is likely drawing an amazing wage to
> define Accessibility in Linux by  their very small and limited
> dictionary.
>
>
> Karen
>
>
>
>
> > On 8/14/22 18:21, Karen Lewellen wrote:
> >>  I echo this attitude concern, but for a different reason.
> >>  who gets to decide what bodies  deserve a place at the table?
> >>  because of a vascular accident in an eye surgery, I experience a brain
> >>  anomaly where certain frequencies stimulate the dizzy centres of my
> brain.
> >>  allot of those frequencies happen in poorly designed software speech
> >>  configurations for Linux.
> >>  Meaning, because little effort has been made to give choices for Linux
> >>  speech in the gui, if I wanted to use this, I would have to choose
> between
> >>  a Linux computer and hospitalization.
> >>  compare this with apple hardware.
> >>  I recently aquired a  mid 2012 macbook pro which, because of how the
> >>  voiceover   sound is produced is perfectly safe for my use..and I can
> >>  still run  only one  Mac os off  from the last pre m.1 systems.
> >>  i have an associate in my office running their business on a 2011
> macbook
> >>  pro.
> >>  Indeed climate change, landfill issues, available resources in terms of
> >>  training and access all over the world.
> >>  And, for many how their body works mandates choices.
> >>  There was a time when one of the great things about Linux was that it
> >>  could be used to breathe  new life into older hardware. especially
> >>  helpful in  non-western countries where getting the fastest car on the
> >>  road was costly.
> >>  If your attitude was the rule though, those folks regardless of
> abilities
> >>  might never get computers at all.
> >>   take your attitude and say substitute braille.
> >>   Statistically less than 10% of the blindness community are braille
> >>  users, meaning the majority do not  use it, or even learn it if newly
> >>  blinded.
> >>  so, its unfortunate some blind people are still stuck needing volumes
> and
> >>  volumes of braille, but  to expect the world to confirm to such a
> limited
> >>  use language etc.
> >>  Speaking personally, especially given how flexible Linux is supposed to
> >>  be?
> >>  deciding some have no place at your gui table is little different than
> >>  deciding those who are visible minorities, no matter the location,
> have no
> >>  place at the table either.
> >>   Karen
> >>
> >>
> >>
> >>  On Sun, 14 Aug 2022, Chris Brannon wrote:
> >>
> >> >  Matt Campbell <mattcampbell at pobox.com> writes:
> >> >
> >> > >  I took this position in 2000, but for the last decade or more,
> access
> >> > >  to a
> >> > >  GUI has been widely available to blind people at no extra cost.
> (If
> >> > >  there
> >> > >  are blind people today who are truly stuck on old hardware with no
> >> > >  accessible GUI, that's unfortunate, but I think this is one case
> where
> >> > >  the
> >> > >  best solution is charity, not expecting the rest of the world to
> >> > >  accommodate
> >> > >  this situation forever. That's no different than for sighted
> people
> >> > >  stuck on
> >> > >  very old hardware.)
> >> >
> >> >  I'm sorry, but this is a very irresponsible attitude, given the
> impact
> >> >  of climate change.  And now on top of that, the world is coping with
> >> >  supply chain issues.  "Chuck it in a landfill because it won't run
> the
> >> >  latest Electron app" is deeply unacceptable.
> >> >
> >> >  I do agree with you about the importance of GUI accessibility, even
> >> >  though I only use one when circumstances force me to it.  I'm
> somewhat
> >> >  optimistic about the recent news.
> >> >
> >> >  -- Chris
> >> >
> >> >
> >>
> >
> >
> _______________________________________________
> Blinux-list mailing list
> Blinux-list at redhat.com
> https://listman.redhat.com/mailman/listinfo/blinux-list
>

"Accessibility in Fedora Workstation" (fwd)

[blinux-list]

Brian, this is why some people call the NFB a cult. No matter how 
clearly wrong it is, they never admit a mistake.

Think about what you are saying. About the time this controversy was at 
its height, I was volunteering teaching elderly, visually impaired 
people to use a computer. Imagine their reaction when I told them a 
screen reader for Windows would run somewhere around $1,000. 
Essentially, you're arguing that those elderly people should pay a 
$1,000 tax in a effort to keep Freedom Scientific profitable. Do you 
know what $1,000 means to an elderly, visually impaired person?

An effor, by the way, which was doomed to failure if it was needed at 
all. Free screen readers were, and still are, the wave of the future. A 
free screen reader for Windows was coming anyway. Linux, Mac OS, IOS, 
and Android all have screen readers built into the operating system. And 
don't say these developments could not be anticipated. I argued like a 
bulldog for them.

PS: VoiceOver for MacOS is absolutely not a point in your favor. First 
of all, people love VoiceOver for MacOS. I doubt customer satisfaction 
with Jaws was ever greater than that for VoiceOver. But more 
importantly, the mere existence of VoiceOver shows the flaw in the NFB's 
logic. The NFB? simply didn't have the ability to protect Jaws from 
competition from fre screen readers.


On 8/16/22 14:41, Brian Buhrow wrote:
> 	hello.  I get that this is a list for an open source project and I am a strong advocate
> for open source software -- I too make my living using and working on it every day. In fact,
> I'm writing this using an open source screen reader, yasr.
>
> 	Yes, we got many of the details wrong in terms of how things have played out over time,
> but I think the over all concept was more or less correct and I think the jury is still out as
> to whether we were completely wrong.  With the exception of Linux and the BSD's which are
> completely open source, the screen readers available today for commercial operating systems,
> i.e. Windows, iOS, Mac OSX and Android, are totally dependent on the accessibility APIs the
> vendors of those operating systems provide.  If the data coming out of those APIs isn't good or
> if the APIs aren't performant, then the screen reader experience wil be terrible regardless of
> which one is in use.  As I wrote earlier, Apple has already shut the door on third party screen
> reader  development -- it's VoiceOver or the highway.
>
> 	Microsoft has made the argument that by building Narrator, they can learn how bad their
> APIs are and improve them for their own use, as well as the use of the third party screen
> readers.  This is a reasonable argument, as long as they're willing to continue sharing those
> APIs with third party screen reader developers.  But, if they decide they want to go down the
> road of Apple at some point, third party screen reader developers, and their users, are out in
> the cold.  That is more true today than it was, say, 10 or 15 years ago.
>
> 	The irony is, and I'm sure many of the folks on this list wil disagree with this
> statement, that in some way, the argument we made about these concerns to Microsoft helped spur
> the development of NVDA, a project I thoroughly endorse.  Microsoft has been a very large
> contributor to the NVDA effort, something they did, in part, to allay our concerns, and to show
> they support open source software.
>
> 	As to my comment about the jury still being out on the issue, Microsoft continues to push
> Narrator forward.  And, based on discussions we've had with them recently, they are discovering
> just how challenging it can be to make a screen reader work well.  It is my perception that
> they are still toying with the idea of going down the Apple road in some of their internal
> discussions, but that they are coming to the realization about how bad of an idea this really
> is.  It is that realization that gives me hope that we will continue to have choices when it
> comes to access software on Windows going forward and that the Linux companies, i.e.
> Cannonical, Red Hat and the others, will decide the best way to leverage accessibility is to
> continue to improve the access software  that's already out there.
>
> -Brian

"Accessibility in Fedora Workstation" (fwd)

[blinux-list]

Brian, you're not actually still defending the NFB's reasoning, are you? 
It could hardly have been more clearly wrong.

You are posting this to an email list for a free, open source screen 
reader. I made my living as the manager of high performance computing at 
the University Of Wisconsin with Speakup and Orca. And Jaws still 
exists. The price has dropped to $99 though.

Look, the NFB made a mistake. A *HUGE* mistake. That's about as obvious 
as it could possibly be.


On 8/16/22 13:14, Brian Buhrow wrote:
> 	hello.  Having participated in the debate with Microsoft about narrator, let me see if I
> can provide a bit of context.  When Microsoft began putting a real effort into Narrator, there
> wer  those of us who were concerned that it would put Freedom scientific out of business and,
> thus, potentially, remove accessibility choices for blind users, especially for folks who were
> currently employed using JAWS or, at the time, GW Micro.  Exhibit A was, and is, Apple with
> VoiceOver.  If you want to use Apple products with access technology your choice is, well,
> VoiceOver.  If it doesn't work for you, well then, tough on you.  That's also true of Android
> with Talkback and Brailleback.  Yes, Brltty works on Android, but it relies on the access
> provided by Talkback and Brailleback to get its data, so if Talkback and Brailleback can't see
> it, it isn't visible nonvisually.
> 	It takes a lot of effort to make a good screen reader and it takes even more effort to
> keep it running well.  The argument ran like this: if Microsoft put a huge amount of effort
> into getting Narrator working well, would they continue to provide the hooks and data Freedom
> Scientific and NVDA needed to make their products work?  And, what if Narrator was deemed good
> enough by Microsoft, but didn't work for folks who were trying to hold down jobs, but JAWS and,
> at the time GW Micro, couldn't  continue making their products function because they weren't
> getting what they needed from Microsoft?  what we said was we didn't want Microsoft to work on
> Narrator at the expense of continuing to develop and share their access API's with third party
> screen reader providers.
> 	While it's true the accessibility scene hasn't played out exactly as we described it in
> terms of the time frame we laid out, it is true that, over time, accessibility options for
> Windows users are dwindling.  Case and point, if you purchase the tablet version of Windows, or
> the stock home edition of Windows, by default, you cannot use any screen reader other than
> Narrator on that installation unless you flip a magic switch in that installation to enable the
> full Windows experience.  In addition to allowing third party screen readers, that switch also
> allows the installation of unsigned software outside of the Microsoft store.  Microsoft claims
> they will never disable the ability to flip that switch, but the fact that we are one switch
> away from not being able to use the screen reader of our choice on Windows, is, in my view, an
> erosion of access.  Remember, there was a time when Microsoft said it would never release a
> Windows version 11.
>
> 	So, while it may be that our message was mis-interpreted, and we may have not stated it as
> well as we should have, the goal of the message was, in fact, to expand accessibility choices,
> not to diminish them.
>
> -Brian
>
>

"Accessibility in Fedora Workstation" (fwd)

[blinux-list]

Hi Brian,
Thank you for providing this context.
What concerns me about your example is even greater.
Just how does a member of the general public, finding they must use a 
screen reader for any number of reasons, even learn they have such an 
option as that switch?
Karen



On Tue, 16 Aug 2022, Brian Buhrow wrote:

> 	hello.  Having participated in the debate with Microsoft about narrator, let me see if I
> can provide a bit of context.  When Microsoft began putting a real effort into Narrator, there
> wer  those of us who were concerned that it would put Freedom scientific out of business and,
> thus, potentially, remove accessibility choices for blind users, especially for folks who were
> currently employed using JAWS or, at the time, GW Micro.  Exhibit A was, and is, Apple with
> VoiceOver.  If you want to use Apple products with access technology your choice is, well,
> VoiceOver.  If it doesn't work for you, well then, tough on you.  That's also true of Android
> with Talkback and Brailleback.  Yes, Brltty works on Android, but it relies on the access
> provided by Talkback and Brailleback to get its data, so if Talkback and Brailleback can't see
> it, it isn't visible nonvisually.
> 	It takes a lot of effort to make a good screen reader and it takes even more effort to
> keep it running well.  The argument ran like this: if Microsoft put a huge amount of effort
> into getting Narrator working well, would they continue to provide the hooks and data Freedom
> Scientific and NVDA needed to make their products work?  And, what if Narrator was deemed good
> enough by Microsoft, but didn't work for folks who were trying to hold down jobs, but JAWS and,
> at the time GW Micro, couldn't  continue making their products function because they weren't
> getting what they needed from Microsoft?  what we said was we didn't want Microsoft to work on
> Narrator at the expense of continuing to develop and share their access API's with third party
> screen reader providers.
> 	While it's true the accessibility scene hasn't played out exactly as we described it in
> terms of the time frame we laid out, it is true that, over time, accessibility options for
> Windows users are dwindling.  Case and point, if you purchase the tablet version of Windows, or
> the stock home edition of Windows, by default, you cannot use any screen reader other than
> Narrator on that installation unless you flip a magic switch in that installation to enable the
> full Windows experience.  In addition to allowing third party screen readers, that switch also
> allows the installation of unsigned software outside of the Microsoft store.  Microsoft claims
> they will never disable the ability to flip that switch, but the fact that we are one switch
> away from not being able to use the screen reader of our choice on Windows, is, in my view, an
> erosion of access.  Remember, there was a time when Microsoft said it would never release a
> Windows version 11.
>
> 	So, while it may be that our message was mis-interpreted, and we may have not stated it as
> well as we should have, the goal of the message was, in fact, to expand accessibility choices,
> not to diminish them.
>
> -Brian
>
>
>

"Accessibility in Fedora Workstation" (fwd)

[blinux-list]

Hi folks,
I am sharing the below article for a couple of reasons.
First, someone directly involved with speakup might want to correct the 
slander there seemingly token  blind person shares about speakup.
Second, to encourage others to share the article...it is the sort of 
stereotypical projecting that unfortunately, no matter how well intended 
passes  for  inclusion efforts sometimes.
Honestly I know more qualified people from this list, from the Blinux list, 
for  that matter than the guy hired for this fedora task...and I am not 
a major Linux user.
Please read and at least correct his understanding.
Karen

An article in Fedora Magazine talks about increased efforts to make the
Fedora distribution more accessible.

<https://fedoramagazine.org/accessibility-in-fedora-workstation/>