"Accessibility in Fedora Workstation" (fwd)

[blinux-list at redhat.com (Linux for blind general discussion)]

speaking personally?
No government employee should be a member of the NfB.   ethical conflict 
of interest personified.

Karen


On Wed, 17 Aug 2022, K0LNY_Glenn wrote:

> Yeah, I had been to a state NFBN convention that year and did the PAC thing.
> Then when the NFB did that, I called up the state treasurer for the NFBN and
> cancelled my PAC plan.
> I told them that they don't care if I can read my money, then they don't
> need any from me.
> Glenn
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: "Karen Lewellen" <klewellen at shellworld.net>
> To: "Butch Bussen" <butchb at shellworld.net>
> Cc: "John G. Heim" <jheim at wisc.edu>; "K0LNY_Glenn" <glenn at ervin.email>;
> <speakup at linux-speakup.org>; "Milan Zamazal" <pdm at zamazal.org>;
> <Blinux-list at redhat.com>
> Sent: Wednesday, August 17, 2022 11:18 AM
> Subject: Re: "Accessibility in Fedora Workstation" (fwd)
>
>
> My personal favorite is the rejection of money that could be identified
> by touch.  never mind that for honestly thousands of years the practice has
> been common so those with limited education could still engage in commerce.
>
>
>
> On Wed, 17 Aug 2022, Butch Bussen wrote:
>
>> Yes, I remember that.  And what about their oposition to descriptive
>> video,
>> even filed a law sute to get the law thrown out, which it was at that
>> time.
>> 73
>> Butch
>> WA0VJR
>> Node 3148
>> Wallace, ks.
>>
>>
>> On Tue, 16 Aug 2022, John G. Heim wrote:
>>
>>>  Holy cow! Are you aware that the NFB once asked Microsoft to *NOT*
>>> improve
>>>  Narrator to the point where it would compete with Jaws? If you think the
>>>  NFB is incapable of forcing choices on people, you are very sadly
>>>  mistaken.
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>  On 8/16/22 09:36, K0LNY_Glenn wrote:
>>>>   This sort of thing would never happen in Nebraska, or any state where
>>>>   the
>>>>   agency staff is of the NFB philosophy.
>>>>   Say what you want about the NFB, no organization is without its
>>>>   problems,
>>>>   but it is the core philosophy that formed the NFB that knows that
>>>>   society
>>>>   has low expectations of the Blind, and this is why the NFB believes
>>>> in
>>>>   skills and high expectations.
>>>>   And with that, comes giving respect to the Blind, like the respect of
>>>>   choice.
>>>>   Yeah I know about the information of recent about NFB abuse, but this
>>>>   is
>>>>   organizational issues, unrelated to the philosophy.  In fact, the
>>>> fact
>>>>   that
>>>>   it has come up demonstrates that the NFB is no different than any
>>>> other
>>>>   organization in interpersonal staff issues.
>>>>   And choice does not mean training center choices.
>>>>   Choice isn't always an option, just like if you took a vocational
>>>>   course
>>>>   in
>>>>   college, there are things you have to take, so to me, the lack of
>>>>   choice
>>>>   in
>>>>   this regard is different than computer software, where all the
>>>> choices
>>>>   will
>>>>   reach the same end result.
>>>>   In states where the NFB philosophy is embraced, if a client said I
>>>> want
>>>>   to
>>>>   use a Mac, or I want Window Eyes, then that is what they would get,
>>>> no
>>>>   questions asked.
>>>>   They would not have to fight to get it.
>>>>   I simply cannot imagine a counselor saying that someone has to use
>>>> the
>>>>   software that the counselor wants them to have.
>>>>   When I hear that stuff, I almost cannot believe it, but I know Butch
>>>>   well
>>>>   enough to know he wouldn't make that up.
>>>>
>>>>   Glenn
>>>>   ----- Original Message -----
>>>>   From: "Butch Bussen" <butchb at shellworld.net>
>>>>   To: "Karen Lewellen" <klewellen at shellworld.net>
>>>>   Cc: "K0LNY_Glenn" <glenn at ervin.email>; <speakup at linux-speakup.org>;
>>>>   "Milan
>>>>   Zamazal" <pdm at zamazal.org>; <Blinux-list at redhat.com>
>>>>   Sent: Tuesday, August 16, 2022 8:18 AM
>>>>   Subject: Re: "Accessibility in Fedora Workstation" (fwd)
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>   You are right.  In Nevada, freedom pushed jaws to the rehab people
>>>> and
>>>>   took them out for steak diners and so forth.  I fought like hell to
>>>> get
>>>>   them to buy window-eyes.
>>>>   73
>>>>   Butch
>>>>   WA0VJR
>>>>   Node 3148
>>>>   Wallace, ks.
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>   On Sun, 14 Aug 2022, Karen Lewellen wrote:
>>>>
>>>>>   And where do these employers learn about jaws?
>>>>>   In fact, provide if you do not mind an example of how  this works
>>>>>   exactly.
>>>>>   after all, unless I am incorrect, these employers are not personal
>>>>>   Jaws
>>>>>   users, meaning someone they trust continues to sell them on an
>>>>>   expensive
>>>>>   program instead of a largely free one.
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>   On Sat, 13 Aug 2022, K0LNY_Glenn wrote:
>>>>>
>>>>>>     Karen,
>>>>>>     Most employers don't want NVDA, and will only allow Jaws.
>>>>>>     In Nebraska, if an employer said put on whatever works, the
>>>>>>     counselors
>>>>>>     will
>>>>>>     use NVDA, because of the cost of Jaws.
>>>>>>     If some of the clients in a call center already use Jaws, but
>>>>>>     don't know
>>>>>>     NVDA, the counselor will use Jaws, because the other clients
>>>>>> will
>>>>>>     need
>>>>>>   to
>>>>>>     learn one of the two.
>>>>>>     So it's all choice, but in the workplace, it depends on what
>>>>>> the
>>>>>>   employer
>>>>>>     will allow.
>>>>>>     Also, sometimes scripts need to be made, and there are more
>>>>>> Jaws
>>>>>>   scripters
>>>>>>     available than there are NVDA add-on writers.
>>>>>>     So this perception that Jaws is forced by rehab, from my 31
>>>>>> years
>>>>>>     in the
>>>>>>     business I can say is rubbish.
>>>>>>     Now, if a counselor did not know how to use NVDA, and either
>>>>>> may
>>>>>>     be
>>>>>>     chosen,
>>>>>>     the rehab counselor is able to select the one that the
>>>>>> counselor
>>>>>>     feels
>>>>>>   is
>>>>>>     best for the student and for the counselor's teaching.
>>>>>>     When it comes to part B moneys, which is used for
>>>>>> non-vocational
>>>>>>     purchases,
>>>>>>     where a lot of Jaws purchases come from, it is in the agency's
>>>>>>     best
>>>>>>     interest
>>>>>>     to spend as little as possible, because that doesn't come back
>>>>>>     like VR
>>>>>>     expenditures do.
>>>>>>     Glenn
>>>>>>
>>>>>>     ----- Original Message -----
>>>>>>     From: "Karen Lewellen" <klewellen at shellworld.net>
>>>>>>     To: "K0LNY_Glenn" <glenn at ervin.email>
>>>>>>     Cc: <speakup at linux-speakup.org>; "Milan Zamazal"
>>>>>>     <pdm at zamazal.org>;
>>>>>>     <Blinux-list at redhat.com>
>>>>>>     Sent: Saturday, August 13, 2022 6:15 PM
>>>>>>     Subject: Re: "Accessibility in Fedora Workstation" (fwd)
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>     The challenge with that example is that, as one often gets
>>>>>>   reminded,
>>>>>>   the
>>>>>>     rehab systems track record for facilitating  employment for
>>>>>> their
>>>>>>   clients
>>>>>>     is quite poor.
>>>>>>     With a high percentage of unemployment among our clients.
>>>>>>     Making,
>>>>>>     speaking personally, your buying Jaws for personal use not
>>>>>> really
>>>>>>     reflecting how the system would respond to an alternative
>>>>>>     request.
>>>>>>     Now if someone from organized rehab said, okay freedom
>>>>>>     scientific, we
>>>>>>   are
>>>>>>     creating an employment program where our clients will train in
>>>>>>     Linux,
>>>>>>     needing a solid screen reader solution for the system.  We will
>>>>>>     give you
>>>>>>     an
>>>>>>     exclusive development contract for s millions to create the
>>>>>> tool.
>>>>>>     Fs would likely say where do we sign?
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>     On Sat, 13 Aug 2022, K0LNY_Glenn wrote:
>>>>>>
>>>>>>>     True enough, but largely, rehab people typically use Windows
>>>>>>> at
>>>>>>>     work,
>>>>>>>     and
>>>>>>>     probably at home, but they need to cater to the needs of the
>>>>>>>     client.
>>>>>>>     If a client used Linux, I doubt that any rehab counselor
>>>>>>> would
>>>>>>>   advocate
>>>>>>>     that
>>>>>>>     the client switch to Windows, unless that was needed for a
>>>>>>>     specific
>>>>>>>   job.
>>>>>>>     In Nebraska, we purchased Jaws much more for personal use
>>>>>>> than
>>>>>>>     we did
>>>>>>>     for
>>>>>>>     work related situations.
>>>>>>>     So if FS made a JFL, and people were using Linux, rehab would
>>>>>>>     indeed
>>>>>>>     purchase a JFL product.
>>>>>>>     Glenn
>>>>>>>     ----- Original Message -----
>>>>>>>     From: "Karen Lewellen" <klewellen at shellworld.net>
>>>>>>>     To: "K0LNY_Glenn" <glenn at ervin.email>
>>>>>>>     Cc: <speakup at linux-speakup.org>; "Milan Zamazal"
>>>>>>>     <pdm at zamazal.org>;
>>>>>>>     <Blinux-list at redhat.com>
>>>>>>>     Sent: Saturday, August 13, 2022 3:01 PM
>>>>>>>     Subject: Re: "Accessibility in Fedora Workstation" (fwd)
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>     there was an interesting discussion a month or so back on the
>>>>>>>     blinux
>>>>>>>     list
>>>>>>>     about how long it took completing tasks in the gui as apposed
>>>>>>>     to say
>>>>>>>     command line,  the comments were quite informative.
>>>>>>>     Still, fs has never marketed largely to the end user. Instead
>>>>>>>     they
>>>>>>>     market
>>>>>>>     to the American rehab community.
>>>>>>>     how much market research has  the rehab community done to
>>>>>>>     support the
>>>>>>>     need
>>>>>>>     for choices?
>>>>>>>     How many rehab counselors support  training in Linux?
>>>>>>>     one comment made by the subject of this thread about poor
>>>>>>>     quality
>>>>>>>   speech
>>>>>>>     is a fine one...out of the box Linux has few speech choices.
>>>>>>>     everyone
>>>>>>>     brings their needs to the table there.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>     if you want to get fs to care about Linux, you  need to prove
>>>>>>>     there is
>>>>>>>     money for  them there, from their main source of income.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>     On Sat, 13 Aug 2022, K0LNY_Glenn wrote:
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>     Well since Orca seems to work on so many distros, I don't
>>>>>>>>   know why
>>>>>>>>   FS
>>>>>>>>     would
>>>>>>>>     not be able to do the same.
>>>>>>>>     If Jaws users could switch into Linux, it would be a real
>>>>>>>>     game
>>>>>>>>     changer,
>>>>>>>>     and
>>>>>>>>     I think with lots more Blind Linux users, we would start
>>>>>>>>     seeing
>>>>>>>>     accessibility in Linux not being a second thought.
>>>>>>>>     Glenn
>>>>>>>>     ----- Original Message -----
>>>>>>>>     From: "Karen Lewellen" <klewellen at shellworld.net>
>>>>>>>>     To: "K0LNY_Glenn" <glenn at ervin.email>
>>>>>>>>     Cc: <speakup at linux-speakup.org>; "Milan Zamazal"
>>>>>>>>     <pdm at zamazal.org>;
>>>>>>>>     <Blinux-list at redhat.com>
>>>>>>>>     Sent: Saturday, August 13, 2022 1:47 PM
>>>>>>>>     Subject: Re: "Accessibility in Fedora Workstation" (fwd)
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>     Well technically freedom scientific does not exist any
>>>>>>>>     longer, being
>>>>>>>>     bought
>>>>>>>>     by another company.
>>>>>>>>     Still, I can respect why they, or nvda have not created
>>>>>>>> their
>>>>>>>>     tools
>>>>>>>>     for
>>>>>>>>     Linux.
>>>>>>>>     That is because as I understand it, Linux is  quite like
>>>>>>>>     clay. You
>>>>>>>>   can
>>>>>>>>     mold a distribution into almost anything. there are various
>>>>>>>>     personifications of the system, all sorts of ways and
>>>>>>>> changes
>>>>>>>>     and
>>>>>>>>     options
>>>>>>>>     for creativity.
>>>>>>>>     however adaptive tools are often extensions of physical
>>>>>>>>     characteristics,
>>>>>>>>     hands, eyes, ears, brains, combinations of these.
>>>>>>>>     To build solid assistive tools one must have a solid
>>>>>>>>     foundation as
>>>>>>>>   it
>>>>>>>>     were.  that is part of why there have needed to be so few
>>>>>>>>     Apple
>>>>>>>>     efforts
>>>>>>>>     at
>>>>>>>>     inclusion, they  created  with, and then created in-house
>>>>>>>>     adaptive
>>>>>>>>     tools
>>>>>>>>     for various  populations that were built into the system.
>>>>>>>>     Although Microsoft did not bother until much later, in
>>>>>>>> theory
>>>>>>>>     at
>>>>>>>>     least,
>>>>>>>>     the
>>>>>>>>     consistency of windows is what makes it possible for
>>>>>>>> freedom
>>>>>>>>     or the
>>>>>>>>     former
>>>>>>>>     gw  micro or nvda to create something that can in theory
>>>>>>>>     work.
>>>>>>>>     Floor for the furniture is somewhat solid.
>>>>>>>>     Just my thoughts,
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>     On Sat, 13 Aug 2022, K0LNY_Glenn wrote:
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>     I would like to see Freedom Scientific make a Jaws For
>>>>>>>>>     Linux.
>>>>>>>>>     JFL
>>>>>>>>>     I'd certainly pay the yearly rental fee for it, and it
>>>>>>>>>     would bring
>>>>>>>>>     many
>>>>>>>>>     more
>>>>>>>>>     users into Linux.
>>>>>>>>>     FS could, with its resources, possibly make it more
>>>>>>>>> robust
>>>>>>>>>     than
>>>>>>>>>     Orca.
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>     Glenn
>>>>>>>>>     ----- Original Message -----
>>>>>>>>>     From: "Milan Zamazal" <pdm at zamazal.org>
>>>>>>>>>     To: <speakup at linux-speakup.org>
>>>>>>>>>     Cc: <Blinux-list at redhat.com>
>>>>>>>>>     Sent: Saturday, August 13, 2022 12:08 PM
>>>>>>>>>     Subject: Re: "Accessibility in Fedora Workstation" (fwd)
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>     "KL" == Karen Lewellen
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> <klewellen at shellworld.net>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>   writes:
>>>>>>>>>   KL>  What bothers me most are his lack of actual
>>>>>>>>>   qualifications,
>>>>>>>>>   and
>>>>>>>>> KL>    absolute dismissal of what he has not experienced..as
>>>>>>>>> if
>>>>>>>>> KL>    he
>>>>>>>>> KL>    defines Linux usage for everyone.  That attitude is
>>>>>>>>> KL>    dangerous,
>>>>>>>>> KL>    because he is educating those outside of the
>>>>>>>>> KL>    accessibility
>>>>>>>>> KL>    experiences, who will believe his ignorance is
>>>>>>>>> factual.
>>>>>>>>> KL>    he
>>>>>>>>>   has
>>>>>>>>>   KL>  to be expert, it is his job.
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>     Hi Karen,
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>     I know Lukas personally and I admire his skills and
>>>>>>>>>   qualifications.
>>>>>>>>>     I
>>>>>>>>>     also know first hand that he is open to constructive
>>>>>>>>>     feedback and
>>>>>>>>>   I
>>>>>>>>>     believe he???Td be happy to be corrected about possible
>>>>>>>>>     technical
>>>>>>>>>     inaccuracies in the interview.  It may be also a good
>>>>>>>>>     opportunity
>>>>>>>>>   to
>>>>>>>>>     find out what???Ts possibly missing in making anybody
>>>>>>>>>     better
>>>>>>>>>     informed.
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>     As for ???oabsolute dismissal of what he has not
>>>>>>>>>   experienced?????,
>>>>>>>>>   what
>>>>>>>>>     reasonable free software alternatives to a less or more
>>>>>>>>>     standard
>>>>>>>>>     desktop
>>>>>>>>>     with Orca and a software synthesizer can you see for a
>>>>>>>>>     common
>>>>>>>>>   blind
>>>>>>>>>     user
>>>>>>>>>     who needs to use a fully working web browser, to read and
>>>>>>>>>     process
>>>>>>>>>     text
>>>>>>>>>     documents, to be compatible with other computer users,
>>>>>>>>>     etc.?
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>     And let???Ts be realistic.  We celebrate every single
>>>>>>>>>   developer
>>>>>>>>>   hired
>>>>>>>>>     to
>>>>>>>>>     improve accessibility.  This tells something about the
>>>>>>>>>     state of
>>>>>>>>>   the
>>>>>>>>>     matters.  We cannot expect that a single person will fix
>>>>>>>>>     all the
>>>>>>>>>     kinds
>>>>>>>>>     of accessibility problems in all the environments.  Lukas
>>>>>>>>>     works at
>>>>>>>>>     his
>>>>>>>>>     job focusing on certain areas currently seen there as
>>>>>>>>>     urgent ones
>>>>>>>>>     and I
>>>>>>>>>     appreciate this opportunity.  Anybody else seeing a need
>>>>>>>>> to
>>>>>>>>>     work
>>>>>>>>>   on
>>>>>>>>>     other areas is welcome to contribute to whatever sees
>>>>>>>>> fit,
>>>>>>>>>   as I
>>>>>>>>>   do.
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>     Regards,
>>>>>>>>>     Milan
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>
>
>