"Accessibility in Fedora Workstation" (fwd)

[blinux-list at redhat.com (Linux for blind general discussion)]

Glen,
you are missing the point.
A commission board, at least if constructed  with integrity serves as a 
watchdog for your organization's activities.
Making sure that you act, objectively, and above influence with government 
funding.
That role differs from a public servant, like yourself.
In fact that the commission  has members from both organizations is 
exactly why you should not be a member.
if, as you said, the state has an Nfb philosophy, I wonder  just how above 
influence  that commission actually is, lip service attendance does not 
translate  to the statement you freely made.
Honestly, i wish I knew someone with Nebraska public radio.  there is a 
investigative, data journalism piece right here, exploring how objective 
your  office is in fact.



On Wed, 17 Aug 2022, K0LNY_Glenn wrote:

> Karen,
> In Nebraska, the commission board attends both consumer groups' state
> conventions.
> So there is total transparency within the consumer groups.
> The agency sends clients to both conventions for educational purposes.
> Some can go to either national convention on the state.
> Glenn
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: "Karen Lewellen" <klewellen at shellworld.net>
> To: "K0LNY_Glenn" <glenn at ervin.email>
> Cc: "Butch Bussen" <butchb at shellworld.net>; "John G. Heim" <jheim at wisc.edu>;
> <speakup at linux-speakup.org>; "Milan Zamazal" <pdm at zamazal.org>;
> <Blinux-list at redhat.com>
> Sent: Wednesday, August 17, 2022 2:06 PM
> Subject: Re: "Accessibility in Fedora Workstation" (fwd)
>
>
> wrong.
> Your first duty is to those clients  You serve.  as illustrated here the Nfb
> used their ability to reach insiders to influence policy to the detriment
> of the broader community...same can clearly be said for freedom
> scientific.
> That you stated clearly that your  rehab system runs on an nfb philosophy
> illustrates my point perfectly.
> There are countless legal terms for  such conflicts of interest, I dare
> say if you were serving any other clientele your government watchdog would
> put  a stop  to the practice.
> allows the organization to have undue almost antitrust influence on
> people's lives.
>
>
>
> On Wed, 17 Aug 2022, K0LNY_Glenn wrote:
>
>> I don't think so, we are people first, and being a government employee
>> should not preclude personal rights.
>> Besides, I attended the conventions for CEU credits, but I never joined
>> with
>> dues.
>> Glenn
>> ----- Original Message -----
>> From: "Karen Lewellen" <klewellen at shellworld.net>
>> To: "K0LNY_Glenn" <glenn at ervin.email>
>> Cc: "Butch Bussen" <butchb at shellworld.net>; "John G. Heim"
>> <jheim at wisc.edu>;
>> <speakup at linux-speakup.org>; "Milan Zamazal" <pdm at zamazal.org>;
>> <Blinux-list at redhat.com>
>> Sent: Wednesday, August 17, 2022 11:36 AM
>> Subject: Re: "Accessibility in Fedora Workstation" (fwd)
>>
>>
>> speaking personally?
>> No government employee should be a member of the NfB.   ethical conflict
>> of interest personified.
>>
>> Karen
>>
>>
>> On Wed, 17 Aug 2022, K0LNY_Glenn wrote:
>>
>>> Yeah, I had been to a state NFBN convention that year and did the PAC
>>> thing.
>>> Then when the NFB did that, I called up the state treasurer for the NFBN
>>> and
>>> cancelled my PAC plan.
>>> I told them that they don't care if I can read my money, then they don't
>>> need any from me.
>>> Glenn
>>> ----- Original Message -----
>>> From: "Karen Lewellen" <klewellen at shellworld.net>
>>> To: "Butch Bussen" <butchb at shellworld.net>
>>> Cc: "John G. Heim" <jheim at wisc.edu>; "K0LNY_Glenn" <glenn at ervin.email>;
>>> <speakup at linux-speakup.org>; "Milan Zamazal" <pdm at zamazal.org>;
>>> <Blinux-list at redhat.com>
>>> Sent: Wednesday, August 17, 2022 11:18 AM
>>> Subject: Re: "Accessibility in Fedora Workstation" (fwd)
>>>
>>>
>>> My personal favorite is the rejection of money that could be identified
>>> by touch.  never mind that for honestly thousands of years the practice
>>> has
>>> been common so those with limited education could still engage in
>>> commerce.
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> On Wed, 17 Aug 2022, Butch Bussen wrote:
>>>
>>>> Yes, I remember that.  And what about their oposition to descriptive
>>>> video,
>>>> even filed a law sute to get the law thrown out, which it was at that
>>>> time.
>>>> 73
>>>> Butch
>>>> WA0VJR
>>>> Node 3148
>>>> Wallace, ks.
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> On Tue, 16 Aug 2022, John G. Heim wrote:
>>>>
>>>>>  Holy cow! Are you aware that the NFB once asked Microsoft to *NOT*
>>>>> improve
>>>>>  Narrator to the point where it would compete with Jaws? If you think
>>>>> the
>>>>>  NFB is incapable of forcing choices on people, you are very sadly
>>>>>  mistaken.
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>  On 8/16/22 09:36, K0LNY_Glenn wrote:
>>>>>>   This sort of thing would never happen in Nebraska, or any state
>>>>>> where
>>>>>>   the
>>>>>>   agency staff is of the NFB philosophy.
>>>>>>   Say what you want about the NFB, no organization is without its
>>>>>>   problems,
>>>>>>   but it is the core philosophy that formed the NFB that knows that
>>>>>>   society
>>>>>>   has low expectations of the Blind, and this is why the NFB believes
>>>>>> in
>>>>>>   skills and high expectations.
>>>>>>   And with that, comes giving respect to the Blind, like the respect
>>>>>> of
>>>>>>   choice.
>>>>>>   Yeah I know about the information of recent about NFB abuse, but
>>>>>> this
>>>>>>   is
>>>>>>   organizational issues, unrelated to the philosophy.  In fact, the
>>>>>> fact
>>>>>>   that
>>>>>>   it has come up demonstrates that the NFB is no different than any
>>>>>> other
>>>>>>   organization in interpersonal staff issues.
>>>>>>   And choice does not mean training center choices.
>>>>>>   Choice isn't always an option, just like if you took a vocational
>>>>>>   course
>>>>>>   in
>>>>>>   college, there are things you have to take, so to me, the lack of
>>>>>>   choice
>>>>>>   in
>>>>>>   this regard is different than computer software, where all the
>>>>>> choices
>>>>>>   will
>>>>>>   reach the same end result.
>>>>>>   In states where the NFB philosophy is embraced, if a client said I
>>>>>> want
>>>>>>   to
>>>>>>   use a Mac, or I want Window Eyes, then that is what they would get,
>>>>>> no
>>>>>>   questions asked.
>>>>>>   They would not have to fight to get it.
>>>>>>   I simply cannot imagine a counselor saying that someone has to use
>>>>>> the
>>>>>>   software that the counselor wants them to have.
>>>>>>   When I hear that stuff, I almost cannot believe it, but I know Butch
>>>>>>   well
>>>>>>   enough to know he wouldn't make that up.
>>>>>>
>>>>>>   Glenn
>>>>>>   ----- Original Message -----
>>>>>>   From: "Butch Bussen" <butchb at shellworld.net>
>>>>>>   To: "Karen Lewellen" <klewellen at shellworld.net>
>>>>>>   Cc: "K0LNY_Glenn" <glenn at ervin.email>; <speakup at linux-speakup.org>;
>>>>>>   "Milan
>>>>>>   Zamazal" <pdm at zamazal.org>; <Blinux-list at redhat.com>
>>>>>>   Sent: Tuesday, August 16, 2022 8:18 AM
>>>>>>   Subject: Re: "Accessibility in Fedora Workstation" (fwd)
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>   You are right.  In Nevada, freedom pushed jaws to the rehab people
>>>>>> and
>>>>>>   took them out for steak diners and so forth.  I fought like hell to
>>>>>> get
>>>>>>   them to buy window-eyes.
>>>>>>   73
>>>>>>   Butch
>>>>>>   WA0VJR
>>>>>>   Node 3148
>>>>>>   Wallace, ks.
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>   On Sun, 14 Aug 2022, Karen Lewellen wrote:
>>>>>>
>>>>>>>   And where do these employers learn about jaws?
>>>>>>>   In fact, provide if you do not mind an example of how  this works
>>>>>>>   exactly.
>>>>>>>   after all, unless I am incorrect, these employers are not personal
>>>>>>>   Jaws
>>>>>>>   users, meaning someone they trust continues to sell them on an
>>>>>>>   expensive
>>>>>>>   program instead of a largely free one.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>   On Sat, 13 Aug 2022, K0LNY_Glenn wrote:
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>     Karen,
>>>>>>>>     Most employers don't want NVDA, and will only allow Jaws.
>>>>>>>>     In Nebraska, if an employer said put on whatever works, the
>>>>>>>>     counselors
>>>>>>>>     will
>>>>>>>>     use NVDA, because of the cost of Jaws.
>>>>>>>>     If some of the clients in a call center already use Jaws, but
>>>>>>>>     don't know
>>>>>>>>     NVDA, the counselor will use Jaws, because the other clients
>>>>>>>> will
>>>>>>>>     need
>>>>>>>>   to
>>>>>>>>     learn one of the two.
>>>>>>>>     So it's all choice, but in the workplace, it depends on what
>>>>>>>> the
>>>>>>>>   employer
>>>>>>>>     will allow.
>>>>>>>>     Also, sometimes scripts need to be made, and there are more
>>>>>>>> Jaws
>>>>>>>>   scripters
>>>>>>>>     available than there are NVDA add-on writers.
>>>>>>>>     So this perception that Jaws is forced by rehab, from my 31
>>>>>>>> years
>>>>>>>>     in the
>>>>>>>>     business I can say is rubbish.
>>>>>>>>     Now, if a counselor did not know how to use NVDA, and either
>>>>>>>> may
>>>>>>>>     be
>>>>>>>>     chosen,
>>>>>>>>     the rehab counselor is able to select the one that the
>>>>>>>> counselor
>>>>>>>>     feels
>>>>>>>>   is
>>>>>>>>     best for the student and for the counselor's teaching.
>>>>>>>>     When it comes to part B moneys, which is used for
>>>>>>>> non-vocational
>>>>>>>>     purchases,
>>>>>>>>     where a lot of Jaws purchases come from, it is in the agency's
>>>>>>>>     best
>>>>>>>>     interest
>>>>>>>>     to spend as little as possible, because that doesn't come back
>>>>>>>>     like VR
>>>>>>>>     expenditures do.
>>>>>>>>     Glenn
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>     ----- Original Message -----
>>>>>>>>     From: "Karen Lewellen" <klewellen at shellworld.net>
>>>>>>>>     To: "K0LNY_Glenn" <glenn at ervin.email>
>>>>>>>>     Cc: <speakup at linux-speakup.org>; "Milan Zamazal"
>>>>>>>>     <pdm at zamazal.org>;
>>>>>>>>     <Blinux-list at redhat.com>
>>>>>>>>     Sent: Saturday, August 13, 2022 6:15 PM
>>>>>>>>     Subject: Re: "Accessibility in Fedora Workstation" (fwd)
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>     The challenge with that example is that, as one often gets
>>>>>>>>   reminded,
>>>>>>>>   the
>>>>>>>>     rehab systems track record for facilitating  employment for
>>>>>>>> their
>>>>>>>>   clients
>>>>>>>>     is quite poor.
>>>>>>>>     With a high percentage of unemployment among our clients.
>>>>>>>>     Making,
>>>>>>>>     speaking personally, your buying Jaws for personal use not
>>>>>>>> really
>>>>>>>>     reflecting how the system would respond to an alternative
>>>>>>>>     request.
>>>>>>>>     Now if someone from organized rehab said, okay freedom
>>>>>>>>     scientific, we
>>>>>>>>   are
>>>>>>>>     creating an employment program where our clients will train in
>>>>>>>>     Linux,
>>>>>>>>     needing a solid screen reader solution for the system.  We will
>>>>>>>>     give you
>>>>>>>>     an
>>>>>>>>     exclusive development contract for s millions to create the
>>>>>>>> tool.
>>>>>>>>     Fs would likely say where do we sign?
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>     On Sat, 13 Aug 2022, K0LNY_Glenn wrote:
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>     True enough, but largely, rehab people typically use Windows
>>>>>>>>> at
>>>>>>>>>     work,
>>>>>>>>>     and
>>>>>>>>>     probably at home, but they need to cater to the needs of the
>>>>>>>>>     client.
>>>>>>>>>     If a client used Linux, I doubt that any rehab counselor
>>>>>>>>> would
>>>>>>>>>   advocate
>>>>>>>>>     that
>>>>>>>>>     the client switch to Windows, unless that was needed for a
>>>>>>>>>     specific
>>>>>>>>>   job.
>>>>>>>>>     In Nebraska, we purchased Jaws much more for personal use
>>>>>>>>> than
>>>>>>>>>     we did
>>>>>>>>>     for
>>>>>>>>>     work related situations.
>>>>>>>>>     So if FS made a JFL, and people were using Linux, rehab would
>>>>>>>>>     indeed
>>>>>>>>>     purchase a JFL product.
>>>>>>>>>     Glenn
>>>>>>>>>     ----- Original Message -----
>>>>>>>>>     From: "Karen Lewellen" <klewellen at shellworld.net>
>>>>>>>>>     To: "K0LNY_Glenn" <glenn at ervin.email>
>>>>>>>>>     Cc: <speakup at linux-speakup.org>; "Milan Zamazal"
>>>>>>>>>     <pdm at zamazal.org>;
>>>>>>>>>     <Blinux-list at redhat.com>
>>>>>>>>>     Sent: Saturday, August 13, 2022 3:01 PM
>>>>>>>>>     Subject: Re: "Accessibility in Fedora Workstation" (fwd)
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>     there was an interesting discussion a month or so back on the
>>>>>>>>>     blinux
>>>>>>>>>     list
>>>>>>>>>     about how long it took completing tasks in the gui as apposed
>>>>>>>>>     to say
>>>>>>>>>     command line,  the comments were quite informative.
>>>>>>>>>     Still, fs has never marketed largely to the end user. Instead
>>>>>>>>>     they
>>>>>>>>>     market
>>>>>>>>>     to the American rehab community.
>>>>>>>>>     how much market research has  the rehab community done to
>>>>>>>>>     support the
>>>>>>>>>     need
>>>>>>>>>     for choices?
>>>>>>>>>     How many rehab counselors support  training in Linux?
>>>>>>>>>     one comment made by the subject of this thread about poor
>>>>>>>>>     quality
>>>>>>>>>   speech
>>>>>>>>>     is a fine one...out of the box Linux has few speech choices.
>>>>>>>>>     everyone
>>>>>>>>>     brings their needs to the table there.
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>     if you want to get fs to care about Linux, you  need to prove
>>>>>>>>>     there is
>>>>>>>>>     money for  them there, from their main source of income.
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>     On Sat, 13 Aug 2022, K0LNY_Glenn wrote:
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>     Well since Orca seems to work on so many distros, I don't
>>>>>>>>>>   know why
>>>>>>>>>>   FS
>>>>>>>>>>     would
>>>>>>>>>>     not be able to do the same.
>>>>>>>>>>     If Jaws users could switch into Linux, it would be a real
>>>>>>>>>>     game
>>>>>>>>>>     changer,
>>>>>>>>>>     and
>>>>>>>>>>     I think with lots more Blind Linux users, we would start
>>>>>>>>>>     seeing
>>>>>>>>>>     accessibility in Linux not being a second thought.
>>>>>>>>>>     Glenn
>>>>>>>>>>     ----- Original Message -----
>>>>>>>>>>     From: "Karen Lewellen" <klewellen at shellworld.net>
>>>>>>>>>>     To: "K0LNY_Glenn" <glenn at ervin.email>
>>>>>>>>>>     Cc: <speakup at linux-speakup.org>; "Milan Zamazal"
>>>>>>>>>>     <pdm at zamazal.org>;
>>>>>>>>>>     <Blinux-list at redhat.com>
>>>>>>>>>>     Sent: Saturday, August 13, 2022 1:47 PM
>>>>>>>>>>     Subject: Re: "Accessibility in Fedora Workstation" (fwd)
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>     Well technically freedom scientific does not exist any
>>>>>>>>>>     longer, being
>>>>>>>>>>     bought
>>>>>>>>>>     by another company.
>>>>>>>>>>     Still, I can respect why they, or nvda have not created
>>>>>>>>>> their
>>>>>>>>>>     tools
>>>>>>>>>>     for
>>>>>>>>>>     Linux.
>>>>>>>>>>     That is because as I understand it, Linux is  quite like
>>>>>>>>>>     clay. You
>>>>>>>>>>   can
>>>>>>>>>>     mold a distribution into almost anything. there are various
>>>>>>>>>>     personifications of the system, all sorts of ways and
>>>>>>>>>> changes
>>>>>>>>>>     and
>>>>>>>>>>     options
>>>>>>>>>>     for creativity.
>>>>>>>>>>     however adaptive tools are often extensions of physical
>>>>>>>>>>     characteristics,
>>>>>>>>>>     hands, eyes, ears, brains, combinations of these.
>>>>>>>>>>     To build solid assistive tools one must have a solid
>>>>>>>>>>     foundation as
>>>>>>>>>>   it
>>>>>>>>>>     were.  that is part of why there have needed to be so few
>>>>>>>>>>     Apple
>>>>>>>>>>     efforts
>>>>>>>>>>     at
>>>>>>>>>>     inclusion, they  created  with, and then created in-house
>>>>>>>>>>     adaptive
>>>>>>>>>>     tools
>>>>>>>>>>     for various  populations that were built into the system.
>>>>>>>>>>     Although Microsoft did not bother until much later, in
>>>>>>>>>> theory
>>>>>>>>>>     at
>>>>>>>>>>     least,
>>>>>>>>>>     the
>>>>>>>>>>     consistency of windows is what makes it possible for
>>>>>>>>>> freedom
>>>>>>>>>>     or the
>>>>>>>>>>     former
>>>>>>>>>>     gw  micro or nvda to create something that can in theory
>>>>>>>>>>     work.
>>>>>>>>>>     Floor for the furniture is somewhat solid.
>>>>>>>>>>     Just my thoughts,
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>     On Sat, 13 Aug 2022, K0LNY_Glenn wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>     I would like to see Freedom Scientific make a Jaws For
>>>>>>>>>>>     Linux.
>>>>>>>>>>>     JFL
>>>>>>>>>>>     I'd certainly pay the yearly rental fee for it, and it
>>>>>>>>>>>     would bring
>>>>>>>>>>>     many
>>>>>>>>>>>     more
>>>>>>>>>>>     users into Linux.
>>>>>>>>>>>     FS could, with its resources, possibly make it more
>>>>>>>>>>> robust
>>>>>>>>>>>     than
>>>>>>>>>>>     Orca.
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>     Glenn
>>>>>>>>>>>     ----- Original Message -----
>>>>>>>>>>>     From: "Milan Zamazal" <pdm at zamazal.org>
>>>>>>>>>>>     To: <speakup at linux-speakup.org>
>>>>>>>>>>>     Cc: <Blinux-list at redhat.com>
>>>>>>>>>>>     Sent: Saturday, August 13, 2022 12:08 PM
>>>>>>>>>>>     Subject: Re: "Accessibility in Fedora Workstation" (fwd)
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>     "KL" == Karen Lewellen
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> <klewellen at shellworld.net>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>   writes:
>>>>>>>>>>>   KL>  What bothers me most are his lack of actual
>>>>>>>>>>>   qualifications,
>>>>>>>>>>>   and
>>>>>>>>>>> KL>    absolute dismissal of what he has not experienced..as
>>>>>>>>>>> if
>>>>>>>>>>> KL>    he
>>>>>>>>>>> KL>    defines Linux usage for everyone.  That attitude is
>>>>>>>>>>> KL>    dangerous,
>>>>>>>>>>> KL>    because he is educating those outside of the
>>>>>>>>>>> KL>    accessibility
>>>>>>>>>>> KL>    experiences, who will believe his ignorance is
>>>>>>>>>>> factual.
>>>>>>>>>>> KL>    he
>>>>>>>>>>>   has
>>>>>>>>>>>   KL>  to be expert, it is his job.
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>     Hi Karen,
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>     I know Lukas personally and I admire his skills and
>>>>>>>>>>>   qualifications.
>>>>>>>>>>>     I
>>>>>>>>>>>     also know first hand that he is open to constructive
>>>>>>>>>>>     feedback and
>>>>>>>>>>>   I
>>>>>>>>>>>     believe he???Td be happy to be corrected about possible
>>>>>>>>>>>     technical
>>>>>>>>>>>     inaccuracies in the interview.  It may be also a good
>>>>>>>>>>>     opportunity
>>>>>>>>>>>   to
>>>>>>>>>>>     find out what???Ts possibly missing in making anybody
>>>>>>>>>>>     better
>>>>>>>>>>>     informed.
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>     As for ???oabsolute dismissal of what he has not
>>>>>>>>>>>   experienced?????,
>>>>>>>>>>>   what
>>>>>>>>>>>     reasonable free software alternatives to a less or more
>>>>>>>>>>>     standard
>>>>>>>>>>>     desktop
>>>>>>>>>>>     with Orca and a software synthesizer can you see for a
>>>>>>>>>>>     common
>>>>>>>>>>>   blind
>>>>>>>>>>>     user
>>>>>>>>>>>     who needs to use a fully working web browser, to read and
>>>>>>>>>>>     process
>>>>>>>>>>>     text
>>>>>>>>>>>     documents, to be compatible with other computer users,
>>>>>>>>>>>     etc.?
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>     And let???Ts be realistic.  We celebrate every single
>>>>>>>>>>>   developer
>>>>>>>>>>>   hired
>>>>>>>>>>>     to
>>>>>>>>>>>     improve accessibility.  This tells something about the
>>>>>>>>>>>     state of
>>>>>>>>>>>   the
>>>>>>>>>>>     matters.  We cannot expect that a single person will fix
>>>>>>>>>>>     all the
>>>>>>>>>>>     kinds
>>>>>>>>>>>     of accessibility problems in all the environments.  Lukas
>>>>>>>>>>>     works at
>>>>>>>>>>>     his
>>>>>>>>>>>     job focusing on certain areas currently seen there as
>>>>>>>>>>>     urgent ones
>>>>>>>>>>>     and I
>>>>>>>>>>>     appreciate this opportunity.  Anybody else seeing a need
>>>>>>>>>>> to
>>>>>>>>>>>     work
>>>>>>>>>>>   on
>>>>>>>>>>>     other areas is welcome to contribute to whatever sees
>>>>>>>>>>> fit,
>>>>>>>>>>>   as I
>>>>>>>>>>>   do.
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>     Regards,
>>>>>>>>>>>     Milan
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>
>>>
>>>
>>
>>
>>
>
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