"Accessibility in Fedora Workstation" (fwd)

[blinux-list at redhat.com (Linux for blind general discussion)]

Several years ago, I talked with Dave Bolnick who at that time was
Microsoft Accessibility Team lead and he told me the same thing about the
N.F.B.


Jude <jdashiel at panix dot com> .

On Wed, 17 Aug 2022, Butch Bussen wrote:

> It isn't just a rumor.  I was heavily involved with gw micro at that time, and
> nfb's reasoning was it would stop development of screen readers.  Gw was
> working with microsoft at that time and I got it directly from Doug.
> 73
> Butch
> WA0VJR
> Node 3148
> Wallace, ks.
>
>
> On Tue, 16 Aug 2022, K0LNY_Glenn wrote:
>
> > That is hear-say, an old rumor that has been recycled countless times.
> > Glenn
> > ----- Original Message -----
> > From: "John G. Heim" <jheim at wisc.edu>
> > To: "K0LNY_Glenn" <glenn at ervin.email>; "Butch Bussen"
> > <butchb at shellworld.net>; "Karen Lewellen" <klewellen at shellworld.net>
> > Cc: <speakup at linux-speakup.org>; "Milan Zamazal" <pdm at zamazal.org>;
> > <Blinux-list at redhat.com>
> > Sent: Tuesday, August 16, 2022 11:49 AM
> > Subject: Re: "Accessibility in Fedora Workstation" (fwd)
> >
> >
> > Holy cow! Are you aware that the NFB once asked Microsoft to *NOT*
> > improve Narrator to the point where it would compete with Jaws? If you
> > think the NFB is incapable of forcing choices on people, you are very
> > sadly mistaken.
> >
> >
> >
> > On 8/16/22 09:36, K0LNY_Glenn wrote:
> >> This sort of thing would never happen in Nebraska, or any state where the
> >> agency staff is of the NFB philosophy.
> >> Say what you want about the NFB, no organization is without its problems,
> >> but it is the core philosophy that formed the NFB that knows that society
> >> has low expectations of the Blind, and this is why the NFB believes in
> >> skills and high expectations.
> >> And with that, comes giving respect to the Blind, like the respect of
> >> choice.
> >> Yeah I know about the information of recent about NFB abuse, but this is
> >> organizational issues, unrelated to the philosophy.  In fact, the fact
> >> that
> >> it has come up demonstrates that the NFB is no different than any other
> >> organization in interpersonal staff issues.
> >> And choice does not mean training center choices.
> >> Choice isn't always an option, just like if you took a vocational course
> >> in
> >> college, there are things you have to take, so to me, the lack of choice
> >> in
> >> this regard is different than computer software, where all the choices
> >> will
> >> reach the same end result.
> >> In states where the NFB philosophy is embraced, if a client said I want to
> >> use a Mac, or I want Window Eyes, then that is what they would get, no
> >> questions asked.
> >> They would not have to fight to get it.
> >> I simply cannot imagine a counselor saying that someone has to use the
> >> software that the counselor wants them to have.
> >> When I hear that stuff, I almost cannot believe it, but I know Butch well
> >> enough to know he wouldn't make that up.
> >>
> >> Glenn
> >> ----- Original Message -----
> >> From: "Butch Bussen" <butchb at shellworld.net>
> >> To: "Karen Lewellen" <klewellen at shellworld.net>
> >> Cc: "K0LNY_Glenn" <glenn at ervin.email>; <speakup at linux-speakup.org>; "Milan
> >> Zamazal" <pdm at zamazal.org>; <Blinux-list at redhat.com>
> >> Sent: Tuesday, August 16, 2022 8:18 AM
> >> Subject: Re: "Accessibility in Fedora Workstation" (fwd)
> >>
> >>
> >> You are right.  In Nevada, freedom pushed jaws to the rehab people and
> >> took them out for steak diners and so forth.  I fought like hell to get
> >> them to buy window-eyes.
> >> 73
> >> Butch
> >> WA0VJR
> >> Node 3148
> >> Wallace, ks.
> >>
> >>
> >> On Sun, 14 Aug 2022, Karen Lewellen wrote:
> >>
> >>> And where do these employers learn about jaws?
> >>> In fact, provide if you do not mind an example of how  this works
> >>> exactly.
> >>> after all, unless I am incorrect, these employers are not personal Jaws
> >>> users, meaning someone they trust continues to sell them on an expensive
> >>> program instead of a largely free one.
> >>>
> >>>
> >>>
> >>> On Sat, 13 Aug 2022, K0LNY_Glenn wrote:
> >>>
> >>>>   Karen,
> >>>>   Most employers don't want NVDA, and will only allow Jaws.
> >>>>   In Nebraska, if an employer said put on whatever works, the counselors
> >>>>   will
> >>>>   use NVDA, because of the cost of Jaws.
> >>>>   If some of the clients in a call center already use Jaws, but don't
> >>>> know
> >>>>   NVDA, the counselor will use Jaws, because the other clients will need
> >>>> to
> >>>>   learn one of the two.
> >>>>   So it's all choice, but in the workplace, it depends on what the
> >>>> employer
> >>>>   will allow.
> >>>>   Also, sometimes scripts need to be made, and there are more Jaws
> >>>> scripters
> >>>>   available than there are NVDA add-on writers.
> >>>>   So this perception that Jaws is forced by rehab, from my 31 years in
> >>>> the
> >>>>   business I can say is rubbish.
> >>>>   Now, if a counselor did not know how to use NVDA, and either may be
> >>>>   chosen,
> >>>>   the rehab counselor is able to select the one that the counselor feels
> >>>> is
> >>>>   best for the student and for the counselor's teaching.
> >>>>   When it comes to part B moneys, which is used for non-vocational
> >>>>   purchases,
> >>>>   where a lot of Jaws purchases come from, it is in the agency's best
> >>>>   interest
> >>>>   to spend as little as possible, because that doesn't come back like VR
> >>>>   expenditures do.
> >>>>   Glenn
> >>>>
> >>>>   ----- Original Message -----
> >>>>   From: "Karen Lewellen" <klewellen at shellworld.net>
> >>>>   To: "K0LNY_Glenn" <glenn at ervin.email>
> >>>>   Cc: <speakup at linux-speakup.org>; "Milan Zamazal" <pdm at zamazal.org>;
> >>>>   <Blinux-list at redhat.com>
> >>>>   Sent: Saturday, August 13, 2022 6:15 PM
> >>>>   Subject: Re: "Accessibility in Fedora Workstation" (fwd)
> >>>>
> >>>>
> >>>>   The challenge with that example is that, as one often gets reminded,
> >>>> the
> >>>>   rehab systems track record for facilitating  employment for their
> >>>> clients
> >>>>   is quite poor.
> >>>>   With a high percentage of unemployment among our clients.  Making,
> >>>>   speaking personally, your buying Jaws for personal use not really
> >>>>   reflecting how the system would respond to an alternative request.
> >>>>   Now if someone from organized rehab said, okay freedom scientific, we
> >>>> are
> >>>>   creating an employment program where our clients will train in Linux,
> >>>>   needing a solid screen reader solution for the system.  We will give
> >>>> you
> >>>>   an
> >>>>   exclusive development contract for s millions to create the tool.
> >>>>   Fs would likely say where do we sign?
> >>>>
> >>>>
> >>>>
> >>>>   On Sat, 13 Aug 2022, K0LNY_Glenn wrote:
> >>>>
> >>>>>   True enough, but largely, rehab people typically use Windows at work,
> >>>>>   and
> >>>>>   probably at home, but they need to cater to the needs of the client.
> >>>>>   If a client used Linux, I doubt that any rehab counselor would
> >>>>> advocate
> >>>>>   that
> >>>>>   the client switch to Windows, unless that was needed for a specific
> >>>>> job.
> >>>>>   In Nebraska, we purchased Jaws much more for personal use than we did
> >>>>>   for
> >>>>>   work related situations.
> >>>>>   So if FS made a JFL, and people were using Linux, rehab would indeed
> >>>>>   purchase a JFL product.
> >>>>>   Glenn
> >>>>>   ----- Original Message -----
> >>>>>   From: "Karen Lewellen" <klewellen at shellworld.net>
> >>>>>   To: "K0LNY_Glenn" <glenn at ervin.email>
> >>>>>   Cc: <speakup at linux-speakup.org>; "Milan Zamazal" <pdm at zamazal.org>;
> >>>>>   <Blinux-list at redhat.com>
> >>>>>   Sent: Saturday, August 13, 2022 3:01 PM
> >>>>>   Subject: Re: "Accessibility in Fedora Workstation" (fwd)
> >>>>>
> >>>>>
> >>>>>   there was an interesting discussion a month or so back on the blinux
> >>>>>   list
> >>>>>   about how long it took completing tasks in the gui as apposed to say
> >>>>>   command line,  the comments were quite informative.
> >>>>>   Still, fs has never marketed largely to the end user. Instead they
> >>>>>   market
> >>>>>   to the American rehab community.
> >>>>>   how much market research has  the rehab community done to support the
> >>>>>   need
> >>>>>   for choices?
> >>>>>   How many rehab counselors support  training in Linux?
> >>>>>   one comment made by the subject of this thread about poor quality
> >>>>> speech
> >>>>>   is a fine one...out of the box Linux has few speech choices.
> >>>>> everyone
> >>>>>   brings their needs to the table there.
> >>>>>
> >>>>>   if you want to get fs to care about Linux, you  need to prove there
> >>>>> is
> >>>>>   money for  them there, from their main source of income.
> >>>>>
> >>>>>
> >>>>>
> >>>>>   On Sat, 13 Aug 2022, K0LNY_Glenn wrote:
> >>>>>
> >>>>>>   Well since Orca seems to work on so many distros, I don't know why
> >>>>>> FS
> >>>>>>   would
> >>>>>>   not be able to do the same.
> >>>>>>   If Jaws users could switch into Linux, it would be a real game
> >>>>>>   changer,
> >>>>>>   and
> >>>>>>   I think with lots more Blind Linux users, we would start seeing
> >>>>>>   accessibility in Linux not being a second thought.
> >>>>>>   Glenn
> >>>>>>   ----- Original Message -----
> >>>>>>   From: "Karen Lewellen" <klewellen at shellworld.net>
> >>>>>>   To: "K0LNY_Glenn" <glenn at ervin.email>
> >>>>>>   Cc: <speakup at linux-speakup.org>; "Milan Zamazal" <pdm at zamazal.org>;
> >>>>>>   <Blinux-list at redhat.com>
> >>>>>>   Sent: Saturday, August 13, 2022 1:47 PM
> >>>>>>   Subject: Re: "Accessibility in Fedora Workstation" (fwd)
> >>>>>>
> >>>>>>
> >>>>>>   Well technically freedom scientific does not exist any longer, being
> >>>>>>   bought
> >>>>>>   by another company.
> >>>>>>   Still, I can respect why they, or nvda have not created their tools
> >>>>>>   for
> >>>>>>   Linux.
> >>>>>>   That is because as I understand it, Linux is  quite like clay. You
> >>>>>> can
> >>>>>>   mold a distribution into almost anything. there are various
> >>>>>>   personifications of the system, all sorts of ways and changes and
> >>>>>>   options
> >>>>>>   for creativity.
> >>>>>>   however adaptive tools are often extensions of physical
> >>>>>>   characteristics,
> >>>>>>   hands, eyes, ears, brains, combinations of these.
> >>>>>>   To build solid assistive tools one must have a solid  foundation as
> >>>>>> it
> >>>>>>   were.  that is part of why there have needed to be so few Apple
> >>>>>>   efforts
> >>>>>>   at
> >>>>>>   inclusion, they  created  with, and then created in-house adaptive
> >>>>>>   tools
> >>>>>>   for various  populations that were built into the system.
> >>>>>>   Although Microsoft did not bother until much later, in theory at
> >>>>>>   least,
> >>>>>>   the
> >>>>>>   consistency of windows is what makes it possible for freedom or the
> >>>>>>   former
> >>>>>>   gw  micro or nvda to create something that can in theory  work.
> >>>>>>   Floor for the furniture is somewhat solid.
> >>>>>>   Just my thoughts,
> >>>>>>
> >>>>>>
> >>>>>>
> >>>>>>   On Sat, 13 Aug 2022, K0LNY_Glenn wrote:
> >>>>>>
> >>>>>>>   I would like to see Freedom Scientific make a Jaws For Linux.
> >>>>>>>   JFL
> >>>>>>>   I'd certainly pay the yearly rental fee for it, and it would bring
> >>>>>>>   many
> >>>>>>>   more
> >>>>>>>   users into Linux.
> >>>>>>>   FS could, with its resources, possibly make it more robust than
> >>>>>>>   Orca.
> >>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>   Glenn
> >>>>>>>   ----- Original Message -----
> >>>>>>>   From: "Milan Zamazal" <pdm at zamazal.org>
> >>>>>>>   To: <speakup at linux-speakup.org>
> >>>>>>>   Cc: <Blinux-list at redhat.com>
> >>>>>>>   Sent: Saturday, August 13, 2022 12:08 PM
> >>>>>>>   Subject: Re: "Accessibility in Fedora Workstation" (fwd)
> >>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>>>>   "KL" == Karen Lewellen <klewellen at shellworld.net>
> >>>>>>>>>>>> writes:
> >>>>>>> KL>  What bothers me most are his lack of actual qualifications,
> >>>>>>> and
> >>>>>>> KL>  absolute dismissal of what he has not experienced..as if he
> >>>>>>> KL>  defines Linux usage for everyone.  That attitude is dangerous,
> >>>>>>> KL>  because he is educating those outside of the accessibility
> >>>>>>> KL>  experiences, who will believe his ignorance is factual.  he
> >>>>>>> has
> >>>>>>> KL>  to be expert, it is his job.
> >>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>   Hi Karen,
> >>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>   I know Lukas personally and I admire his skills and
> >>>>>>> qualifications.
> >>>>>>>   I
> >>>>>>>   also know first hand that he is open to constructive feedback and
> >>>>>>> I
> >>>>>>>   believe he??Td be happy to be corrected about possible technical
> >>>>>>>   inaccuracies in the interview.  It may be also a good opportunity
> >>>>>>> to
> >>>>>>>   find out what??Ts possibly missing in making anybody better
> >>>>>>>   informed.
> >>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>   As for ??oabsolute dismissal of what he has not experienced???,
> >>>>>>> what
> >>>>>>>   reasonable free software alternatives to a less or more standard
> >>>>>>>   desktop
> >>>>>>>   with Orca and a software synthesizer can you see for a common
> >>>>>>> blind
> >>>>>>>   user
> >>>>>>>   who needs to use a fully working web browser, to read and process
> >>>>>>>   text
> >>>>>>>   documents, to be compatible with other computer users, etc.?
> >>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>   And let??Ts be realistic.  We celebrate every single developer
> >>>>>>> hired
> >>>>>>>   to
> >>>>>>>   improve accessibility.  This tells something about the state of
> >>>>>>> the
> >>>>>>>   matters.  We cannot expect that a single person will fix all the
> >>>>>>>   kinds
> >>>>>>>   of accessibility problems in all the environments.  Lukas works at
> >>>>>>>   his
> >>>>>>>   job focusing on certain areas currently seen there as urgent ones
> >>>>>>>   and I
> >>>>>>>   appreciate this opportunity.  Anybody else seeing a need to work
> >>>>>>> on
> >>>>>>>   other areas is welcome to contribute to whatever sees fit, as I
> >>>>>>> do.
> >>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>   Regards,
> >>>>>>>   Milan
> >>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>
> >>>>>>
> >>>>>
> >>>>
> >>
> >
> >
>