* "Accessibility in Fedora Workstation" (fwd)
@ blinux-list
0 siblings, 0 replies; 78+ messages in thread
From: blinux-list @ UTC (permalink / raw)
Hi folks,
I am sharing the below article for a couple of reasons.
First, someone directly involved with speakup might want to correct the
slander there seemingly token blind person shares about speakup.
Second, to encourage others to share the article...it is the sort of
stereotypical projecting that unfortunately, no matter how well intended
passes for inclusion efforts sometimes.
Honestly I know more qualified people from this list, from the Blinux list,
for that matter than the guy hired for this fedora task...and I am not
a major Linux user.
Please read and at least correct his understanding.
Karen
An article in Fedora Magazine talks about increased efforts to make the
Fedora distribution more accessible.
<https://fedoramagazine.org/accessibility-in-fedora-workstation/>
^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 78+ messages in thread
* "Accessibility in Fedora Workstation" (fwd)
` blinux-list
@ ` blinux-list
0 siblings, 0 replies; 78+ messages in thread
From: blinux-list @ UTC (permalink / raw)
You are quite correct.
what began as a discussion on how Fedora is, and is not, actually
addressing accessibility has dissolved into something entirely
less productive.
I apologize for my part in that aspect.
Best,
Karen
On Wed, 17 Aug 2022, Linux for blind general discussion wrote:
> Might I ask what the firetruck this has to do w/Linux accessibility, &
> why this branch of the discussion is allowed to persist, except, of
> course, for the fact there's no moderator.
>
> Come on, yall--this is normally a productive list--it's now nothing
> more than a dumpster fire. Can yall *please* QUIT!
>
> On 8/17/22, Linux for blind general discussion <blinux-list at redhat.com> wrote:
>> Glen,
>> I have no reason to follow up on anything. The role of a commission, and
>> the duty of a rehab system employee are two different things.
>> that you state you work for a nfb philosophy rehab office speaks volumes
>> for your integrity.
>> clearly your staff simply tell this commission what they want to hear, or
>> they exist in name only.
>> nothing changes your description of your state.
>>
>>
>>
>> On Wed, 17 Aug 2022, K0LNY_Glenn wrote:
>>
>>> I knew you wouldn't follow up on it, they would just laugh at you.
>>> Glenn
>>> ----- Original Message -----
>>> From: "Karen Lewellen" <klewellen at shellworld.net>
>>> To: "K0LNY_Glenn" <glenn at ervin.email>
>>> Cc: "Butch Bussen" <butchb at shellworld.net>; "John G. Heim"
>>> <jheim at wisc.edu>;
>>> <speakup at linux-speakup.org>; "Milan Zamazal" <pdm at zamazal.org>;
>>> <Blinux-list at redhat.com>
>>> Sent: Wednesday, August 17, 2022 4:48 PM
>>> Subject: Re: "Accessibility in Fedora Workstation" (fwd)
>>>
>>>
>>> Glen,
>>> why would I bother?
>>> your own words as a seasoned employee speak for themselves.
>>> Nebraska is an NFB philosophy state.
>>> Were you here in Ontario, that could be a human rights violation, since
>>> here the code establishes that claiming everyone sharing a label
>>> accommodates the same is a violation of the individual's human rights.
>>> No wonder the state of new York supported my professional move, if rehab
>>> systems like yours are Nfb puppets.
>>> The commission is not the individual rehab staffer, who states he makes
>>> decisions using a NFB dictionary.
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> On Wed, 17 Aug 2022, K0LNY_Glenn wrote:
>>>
>>>> Karen,
>>>> Start out at the web site for
>>>> Nebraska Commission for the Blind.
>>>> There are links to communicate with all the board members, who are
>>>> appointed
>>>> by the governor.
>>>> Glenn
>>>> ----- Original Message -----
>>>> From: "Karen Lewellen" <klewellen at shellworld.net>
>>>> To: "K0LNY_Glenn" <glenn at ervin.email>
>>>> Cc: "Butch Bussen" <butchb at shellworld.net>; "John G. Heim"
>>>> <jheim at wisc.edu>;
>>>> <speakup at linux-speakup.org>; "Milan Zamazal" <pdm at zamazal.org>;
>>>> <Blinux-list at redhat.com>
>>>> Sent: Wednesday, August 17, 2022 4:24 PM
>>>> Subject: Re: "Accessibility in Fedora Workstation" (fwd)
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> Do what?
>>>> where I am it is actually a violation of vendor contract to tell someone
>>>> they must use a certain tool.
>>>> give them the chance in an office to try several things yes.
>>>> Force jaws down their throat like rehab does no.
>>>> I said I wished I knew someone in Nebraska media not that I
>>>> did...although
>>>> perhaps.
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> On Wed, 17 Aug 2022, K0LNY_Glenn wrote:
>>>>
>>>>> Please do.
>>>>>
>>>>> ----- Original Message -----
>>>>> From: "Karen Lewellen" <klewellen at shellworld.net>
>>>>> To: "K0LNY_Glenn" <glenn at ervin.email>
>>>>> Cc: "Butch Bussen" <butchb at shellworld.net>; "John G. Heim"
>>>>> <jheim at wisc.edu>;
>>>>> <speakup at linux-speakup.org>; "Milan Zamazal" <pdm at zamazal.org>;
>>>>> <Blinux-list at redhat.com>
>>>>> Sent: Wednesday, August 17, 2022 3:46 PM
>>>>> Subject: Re: "Accessibility in Fedora Workstation" (fwd)
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> Glen,
>>>>> you are missing the point.
>>>>> A commission board, at least if constructed with integrity serves as a
>>>>> watchdog for your organization's activities.
>>>>> Making sure that you act, objectively, and above influence with
>>>>> government
>>>>> funding.
>>>>> That role differs from a public servant, like yourself.
>>>>> In fact that the commission has members from both organizations is
>>>>> exactly why you should not be a member.
>>>>> if, as you said, the state has an Nfb philosophy, I wonder just how
>>>>> above
>>>>> influence that commission actually is, lip service attendance does not
>>>>> translate to the statement you freely made.
>>>>> Honestly, i wish I knew someone with Nebraska public radio. there is a
>>>>> investigative, data journalism piece right here, exploring how
>>>>> objective
>>>>> your office is in fact.
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> On Wed, 17 Aug 2022, K0LNY_Glenn wrote:
>>>>>
>>>>>> Karen,
>>>>>> In Nebraska, the commission board attends both consumer groups' state
>>>>>> conventions.
>>>>>> So there is total transparency within the consumer groups.
>>>>>> The agency sends clients to both conventions for educational purposes.
>>>>>> Some can go to either national convention on the state.
>>>>>> Glenn
>>>>>> ----- Original Message -----
>>>>>> From: "Karen Lewellen" <klewellen at shellworld.net>
>>>>>> To: "K0LNY_Glenn" <glenn at ervin.email>
>>>>>> Cc: "Butch Bussen" <butchb at shellworld.net>; "John G. Heim"
>>>>>> <jheim at wisc.edu>;
>>>>>> <speakup at linux-speakup.org>; "Milan Zamazal" <pdm at zamazal.org>;
>>>>>> <Blinux-list at redhat.com>
>>>>>> Sent: Wednesday, August 17, 2022 2:06 PM
>>>>>> Subject: Re: "Accessibility in Fedora Workstation" (fwd)
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>> wrong.
>>>>>> Your first duty is to those clients You serve. as illustrated here
>>>>>> the
>>>>>> Nfb
>>>>>> used their ability to reach insiders to influence policy to the
>>>>>> detriment
>>>>>> of the broader community...same can clearly be said for freedom
>>>>>> scientific.
>>>>>> That you stated clearly that your rehab system runs on an nfb
>>>>>> philosophy
>>>>>> illustrates my point perfectly.
>>>>>> There are countless legal terms for such conflicts of interest, I
>>>>>> dare
>>>>>> say if you were serving any other clientele your government watchdog
>>>>>> would
>>>>>> put a stop to the practice.
>>>>>> allows the organization to have undue almost antitrust influence on
>>>>>> people's lives.
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>> On Wed, 17 Aug 2022, K0LNY_Glenn wrote:
>>>>>>
>>>>>>> I don't think so, we are people first, and being a government
>>>>>>> employee
>>>>>>> should not preclude personal rights.
>>>>>>> Besides, I attended the conventions for CEU credits, but I never
>>>>>>> joined
>>>>>>> with
>>>>>>> dues.
>>>>>>> Glenn
>>>>>>> ----- Original Message -----
>>>>>>> From: "Karen Lewellen" <klewellen at shellworld.net>
>>>>>>> To: "K0LNY_Glenn" <glenn at ervin.email>
>>>>>>> Cc: "Butch Bussen" <butchb at shellworld.net>; "John G. Heim"
>>>>>>> <jheim at wisc.edu>;
>>>>>>> <speakup at linux-speakup.org>; "Milan Zamazal" <pdm at zamazal.org>;
>>>>>>> <Blinux-list at redhat.com>
>>>>>>> Sent: Wednesday, August 17, 2022 11:36 AM
>>>>>>> Subject: Re: "Accessibility in Fedora Workstation" (fwd)
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> speaking personally?
>>>>>>> No government employee should be a member of the NfB. ethical
>>>>>>> conflict
>>>>>>> of interest personified.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Karen
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> On Wed, 17 Aug 2022, K0LNY_Glenn wrote:
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> Yeah, I had been to a state NFBN convention that year and did the
>>>>>>>> PAC
>>>>>>>> thing.
>>>>>>>> Then when the NFB did that, I called up the state treasurer for the
>>>>>>>> NFBN
>>>>>>>> and
>>>>>>>> cancelled my PAC plan.
>>>>>>>> I told them that they don't care if I can read my money, then they
>>>>>>>> don't
>>>>>>>> need any from me.
>>>>>>>> Glenn
>>>>>>>> ----- Original Message -----
>>>>>>>> From: "Karen Lewellen" <klewellen at shellworld.net>
>>>>>>>> To: "Butch Bussen" <butchb at shellworld.net>
>>>>>>>> Cc: "John G. Heim" <jheim at wisc.edu>; "K0LNY_Glenn"
>>>>>>>> <glenn at ervin.email>;
>>>>>>>> <speakup at linux-speakup.org>; "Milan Zamazal" <pdm at zamazal.org>;
>>>>>>>> <Blinux-list at redhat.com>
>>>>>>>> Sent: Wednesday, August 17, 2022 11:18 AM
>>>>>>>> Subject: Re: "Accessibility in Fedora Workstation" (fwd)
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> My personal favorite is the rejection of money that could be
>>>>>>>> identified
>>>>>>>> by touch. never mind that for honestly thousands of years the
>>>>>>>> practice
>>>>>>>> has
>>>>>>>> been common so those with limited education could still engage in
>>>>>>>> commerce.
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> On Wed, 17 Aug 2022, Butch Bussen wrote:
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> Yes, I remember that. And what about their oposition to
>>>>>>>>> descriptive
>>>>>>>>> video,
>>>>>>>>> even filed a law sute to get the law thrown out, which it was at
>>>>>>>>> that
>>>>>>>>> time.
>>>>>>>>> 73
>>>>>>>>> Butch
>>>>>>>>> WA0VJR
>>>>>>>>> Node 3148
>>>>>>>>> Wallace, ks.
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> On Tue, 16 Aug 2022, John G. Heim wrote:
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> Holy cow! Are you aware that the NFB once asked Microsoft to
>>>>>>>>>> *NOT*
>>>>>>>>>> improve
>>>>>>>>>> Narrator to the point where it would compete with Jaws? If you
>>>>>>>>>> think
>>>>>>>>>> the
>>>>>>>>>> NFB is incapable of forcing choices on people, you are very sadly
>>>>>>>>>> mistaken.
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> On 8/16/22 09:36, K0LNY_Glenn wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>> This sort of thing would never happen in Nebraska, or any state
>>>>>>>>>>> where
>>>>>>>>>>> the
>>>>>>>>>>> agency staff is of the NFB philosophy.
>>>>>>>>>>> Say what you want about the NFB, no organization is without its
>>>>>>>>>>> problems,
>>>>>>>>>>> but it is the core philosophy that formed the NFB that knows
>>>>>>>>>>> that
>>>>>>>>>>> society
>>>>>>>>>>> has low expectations of the Blind, and this is why the NFB
>>>>>>>>>>> believes
>>>>>>>>>>> in
>>>>>>>>>>> skills and high expectations.
>>>>>>>>>>> And with that, comes giving respect to the Blind, like the
>>>>>>>>>>> respect
>>>>>>>>>>> of
>>>>>>>>>>> choice.
>>>>>>>>>>> Yeah I know about the information of recent about NFB abuse,
>>>>>>>>>>> but
>>>>>>>>>>> this
>>>>>>>>>>> is
>>>>>>>>>>> organizational issues, unrelated to the philosophy. In fact,
>>>>>>>>>>> the
>>>>>>>>>>> fact
>>>>>>>>>>> that
>>>>>>>>>>> it has come up demonstrates that the NFB is no different than
>>>>>>>>>>> any
>>>>>>>>>>> other
>>>>>>>>>>> organization in interpersonal staff issues.
>>>>>>>>>>> And choice does not mean training center choices.
>>>>>>>>>>> Choice isn't always an option, just like if you took a
>>>>>>>>>>> vocational
>>>>>>>>>>> course
>>>>>>>>>>> in
>>>>>>>>>>> college, there are things you have to take, so to me, the lack
>>>>>>>>>>> of
>>>>>>>>>>> choice
>>>>>>>>>>> in
>>>>>>>>>>> this regard is different than computer software, where all the
>>>>>>>>>>> choices
>>>>>>>>>>> will
>>>>>>>>>>> reach the same end result.
>>>>>>>>>>> In states where the NFB philosophy is embraced, if a client
>>>>>>>>>>> said
>>>>>>>>>>> I
>>>>>>>>>>> want
>>>>>>>>>>> to
>>>>>>>>>>> use a Mac, or I want Window Eyes, then that is what they would
>>>>>>>>>>> get,
>>>>>>>>>>> no
>>>>>>>>>>> questions asked.
>>>>>>>>>>> They would not have to fight to get it.
>>>>>>>>>>> I simply cannot imagine a counselor saying that someone has to
>>>>>>>>>>> use
>>>>>>>>>>> the
>>>>>>>>>>> software that the counselor wants them to have.
>>>>>>>>>>> When I hear that stuff, I almost cannot believe it, but I know
>>>>>>>>>>> Butch
>>>>>>>>>>> well
>>>>>>>>>>> enough to know he wouldn't make that up.
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>> Glenn
>>>>>>>>>>> ----- Original Message -----
>>>>>>>>>>> From: "Butch Bussen" <butchb at shellworld.net>
>>>>>>>>>>> To: "Karen Lewellen" <klewellen at shellworld.net>
>>>>>>>>>>> Cc: "K0LNY_Glenn" <glenn at ervin.email>;
>>>>>>>>>>> <speakup at linux-speakup.org>;
>>>>>>>>>>> "Milan
>>>>>>>>>>> Zamazal" <pdm at zamazal.org>; <Blinux-list at redhat.com>
>>>>>>>>>>> Sent: Tuesday, August 16, 2022 8:18 AM
>>>>>>>>>>> Subject: Re: "Accessibility in Fedora Workstation" (fwd)
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>> You are right. In Nevada, freedom pushed jaws to the rehab
>>>>>>>>>>> people
>>>>>>>>>>> and
>>>>>>>>>>> took them out for steak diners and so forth. I fought like
>>>>>>>>>>> hell
>>>>>>>>>>> to
>>>>>>>>>>> get
>>>>>>>>>>> them to buy window-eyes.
>>>>>>>>>>> 73
>>>>>>>>>>> Butch
>>>>>>>>>>> WA0VJR
>>>>>>>>>>> Node 3148
>>>>>>>>>>> Wallace, ks.
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>> On Sun, 14 Aug 2022, Karen Lewellen wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>> And where do these employers learn about jaws?
>>>>>>>>>>>> In fact, provide if you do not mind an example of how this
>>>>>>>>>>>> works
>>>>>>>>>>>> exactly.
>>>>>>>>>>>> after all, unless I am incorrect, these employers are not
>>>>>>>>>>>> personal
>>>>>>>>>>>> Jaws
>>>>>>>>>>>> users, meaning someone they trust continues to sell them on an
>>>>>>>>>>>> expensive
>>>>>>>>>>>> program instead of a largely free one.
>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>> On Sat, 13 Aug 2022, K0LNY_Glenn wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>> Karen,
>>>>>>>>>>>>> Most employers don't want NVDA, and will only allow Jaws.
>>>>>>>>>>>>> In Nebraska, if an employer said put on whatever works, the
>>>>>>>>>>>>> counselors
>>>>>>>>>>>>> will
>>>>>>>>>>>>> use NVDA, because of the cost of Jaws.
>>>>>>>>>>>>> If some of the clients in a call center already use Jaws,
>>>>>>>>>>>>> but
>>>>>>>>>>>>> don't know
>>>>>>>>>>>>> NVDA, the counselor will use Jaws, because the other
>>>>>>>>>>>>> clients
>>>>>>>>>>>>> will
>>>>>>>>>>>>> need
>>>>>>>>>>>>> to
>>>>>>>>>>>>> learn one of the two.
>>>>>>>>>>>>> So it's all choice, but in the workplace, it depends on
>>>>>>>>>>>>> what
>>>>>>>>>>>>> the
>>>>>>>>>>>>> employer
>>>>>>>>>>>>> will allow.
>>>>>>>>>>>>> Also, sometimes scripts need to be made, and there are more
>>>>>>>>>>>>> Jaws
>>>>>>>>>>>>> scripters
>>>>>>>>>>>>> available than there are NVDA add-on writers.
>>>>>>>>>>>>> So this perception that Jaws is forced by rehab, from my 31
>>>>>>>>>>>>> years
>>>>>>>>>>>>> in the
>>>>>>>>>>>>> business I can say is rubbish.
>>>>>>>>>>>>> Now, if a counselor did not know how to use NVDA, and
>>>>>>>>>>>>> either
>>>>>>>>>>>>> may
>>>>>>>>>>>>> be
>>>>>>>>>>>>> chosen,
>>>>>>>>>>>>> the rehab counselor is able to select the one that the
>>>>>>>>>>>>> counselor
>>>>>>>>>>>>> feels
>>>>>>>>>>>>> is
>>>>>>>>>>>>> best for the student and for the counselor's teaching.
>>>>>>>>>>>>> When it comes to part B moneys, which is used for
>>>>>>>>>>>>> non-vocational
>>>>>>>>>>>>> purchases,
>>>>>>>>>>>>> where a lot of Jaws purchases come from, it is in the
>>>>>>>>>>>>> agency's
>>>>>>>>>>>>> best
>>>>>>>>>>>>> interest
>>>>>>>>>>>>> to spend as little as possible, because that doesn't come
>>>>>>>>>>>>> back
>>>>>>>>>>>>> like VR
>>>>>>>>>>>>> expenditures do.
>>>>>>>>>>>>> Glenn
>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>> ----- Original Message -----
>>>>>>>>>>>>> From: "Karen Lewellen" <klewellen at shellworld.net>
>>>>>>>>>>>>> To: "K0LNY_Glenn" <glenn at ervin.email>
>>>>>>>>>>>>> Cc: <speakup at linux-speakup.org>; "Milan Zamazal"
>>>>>>>>>>>>> <pdm at zamazal.org>;
>>>>>>>>>>>>> <Blinux-list at redhat.com>
>>>>>>>>>>>>> Sent: Saturday, August 13, 2022 6:15 PM
>>>>>>>>>>>>> Subject: Re: "Accessibility in Fedora Workstation" (fwd)
>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>> The challenge with that example is that, as one often gets
>>>>>>>>>>>>> reminded,
>>>>>>>>>>>>> the
>>>>>>>>>>>>> rehab systems track record for facilitating employment for
>>>>>>>>>>>>> their
>>>>>>>>>>>>> clients
>>>>>>>>>>>>> is quite poor.
>>>>>>>>>>>>> With a high percentage of unemployment among our clients.
>>>>>>>>>>>>> Making,
>>>>>>>>>>>>> speaking personally, your buying Jaws for personal use not
>>>>>>>>>>>>> really
>>>>>>>>>>>>> reflecting how the system would respond to an alternative
>>>>>>>>>>>>> request.
>>>>>>>>>>>>> Now if someone from organized rehab said, okay freedom
>>>>>>>>>>>>> scientific, we
>>>>>>>>>>>>> are
>>>>>>>>>>>>> creating an employment program where our clients will train
>>>>>>>>>>>>> in
>>>>>>>>>>>>> Linux,
>>>>>>>>>>>>> needing a solid screen reader solution for the system. We
>>>>>>>>>>>>> will
>>>>>>>>>>>>> give you
>>>>>>>>>>>>> an
>>>>>>>>>>>>> exclusive development contract for s millions to create the
>>>>>>>>>>>>> tool.
>>>>>>>>>>>>> Fs would likely say where do we sign?
>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>> On Sat, 13 Aug 2022, K0LNY_Glenn wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> True enough, but largely, rehab people typically use
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Windows
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> at
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> work,
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> and
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> probably at home, but they need to cater to the needs of
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> the
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> client.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> If a client used Linux, I doubt that any rehab counselor
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> would
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> advocate
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> that
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> the client switch to Windows, unless that was needed for a
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> specific
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> job.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> In Nebraska, we purchased Jaws much more for personal use
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> than
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> we did
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> for
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> work related situations.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> So if FS made a JFL, and people were using Linux, rehab
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> would
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> indeed
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> purchase a JFL product.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Glenn
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> ----- Original Message -----
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> From: "Karen Lewellen" <klewellen at shellworld.net>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> To: "K0LNY_Glenn" <glenn at ervin.email>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Cc: <speakup at linux-speakup.org>; "Milan Zamazal"
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> <pdm at zamazal.org>;
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> <Blinux-list at redhat.com>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Sent: Saturday, August 13, 2022 3:01 PM
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Subject: Re: "Accessibility in Fedora Workstation" (fwd)
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> there was an interesting discussion a month or so back on
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> the
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> blinux
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> list
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> about how long it took completing tasks in the gui as
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> apposed
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> to say
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> command line, the comments were quite informative.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Still, fs has never marketed largely to the end user.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Instead
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> they
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> market
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> to the American rehab community.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> how much market research has the rehab community done to
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> support the
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> need
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> for choices?
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> How many rehab counselors support training in Linux?
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> one comment made by the subject of this thread about poor
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> quality
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> speech
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> is a fine one...out of the box Linux has few speech
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> choices.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> everyone
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> brings their needs to the table there.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> if you want to get fs to care about Linux, you need to
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> prove
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> there is
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> money for them there, from their main source of income.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> On Sat, 13 Aug 2022, K0LNY_Glenn wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Well since Orca seems to work on so many distros, I don't
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> know why
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> FS
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> would
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> not be able to do the same.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> If Jaws users could switch into Linux, it would be a real
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> game
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> changer,
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> and
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> I think with lots more Blind Linux users, we would start
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> seeing
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> accessibility in Linux not being a second thought.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Glenn
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> ----- Original Message -----
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> From: "Karen Lewellen" <klewellen at shellworld.net>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> To: "K0LNY_Glenn" <glenn at ervin.email>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Cc: <speakup at linux-speakup.org>; "Milan Zamazal"
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> <pdm at zamazal.org>;
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> <Blinux-list at redhat.com>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Sent: Saturday, August 13, 2022 1:47 PM
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Subject: Re: "Accessibility in Fedora Workstation" (fwd)
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Well technically freedom scientific does not exist any
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> longer, being
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> bought
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> by another company.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Still, I can respect why they, or nvda have not created
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> their
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> tools
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> for
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Linux.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> That is because as I understand it, Linux is quite like
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> clay. You
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> can
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> mold a distribution into almost anything. there are
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> various
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> personifications of the system, all sorts of ways and
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> changes
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> and
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> options
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> for creativity.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> however adaptive tools are often extensions of physical
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> characteristics,
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> hands, eyes, ears, brains, combinations of these.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> To build solid assistive tools one must have a solid
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> foundation as
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> it
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> were. that is part of why there have needed to be so few
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Apple
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> efforts
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> at
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> inclusion, they created with, and then created in-house
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> adaptive
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> tools
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> for various populations that were built into the system.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Although Microsoft did not bother until much later, in
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> theory
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> at
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> least,
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> the
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> consistency of windows is what makes it possible for
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> freedom
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> or the
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> former
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> gw micro or nvda to create something that can in theory
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> work.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Floor for the furniture is somewhat solid.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Just my thoughts,
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> On Sat, 13 Aug 2022, K0LNY_Glenn wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> I would like to see Freedom Scientific make a Jaws For
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Linux.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> JFL
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> I'd certainly pay the yearly rental fee for it, and it
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> would bring
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> many
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> more
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> users into Linux.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> FS could, with its resources, possibly make it more
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> robust
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> than
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Orca.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Glenn
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> ----- Original Message -----
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> From: "Milan Zamazal" <pdm at zamazal.org>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> To: <speakup at linux-speakup.org>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Cc: <Blinux-list at redhat.com>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Sent: Saturday, August 13, 2022 12:08 PM
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Subject: Re: "Accessibility in Fedora Workstation" (fwd)
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> "KL" == Karen Lewellen
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> <klewellen at shellworld.net>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> writes:
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> KL> What bothers me most are his lack of actual
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> qualifications,
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> and
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> KL> absolute dismissal of what he has not experienced..as
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> if
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> KL> he
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> KL> defines Linux usage for everyone. That attitude is
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> KL> dangerous,
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> KL> because he is educating those outside of the
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> KL> accessibility
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> KL> experiences, who will believe his ignorance is
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> factual.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> KL> he
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> has
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> KL> to be expert, it is his job.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Hi Karen,
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> I know Lukas personally and I admire his skills and
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> qualifications.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> I
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> also know first hand that he is open to constructive
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> feedback and
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> I
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> believe he???Td be happy to be corrected about possible
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> technical
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> inaccuracies in the interview. It may be also a good
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> opportunity
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> to
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> find out what???Ts possibly missing in making anybody
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> better
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> informed.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> As for ???oabsolute dismissal of what he has not
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> experienced?????,
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> what
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> reasonable free software alternatives to a less or more
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> standard
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> desktop
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> with Orca and a software synthesizer can you see for a
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> common
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> blind
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> user
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> who needs to use a fully working web browser, to read
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> and
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> process
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> text
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> documents, to be compatible with other computer users,
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> etc.?
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> And let???Ts be realistic. We celebrate every single
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> developer
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> hired
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> to
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> improve accessibility. This tells something about the
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> state of
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> the
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> matters. We cannot expect that a single person will fix
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> all the
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> kinds
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> of accessibility problems in all the environments.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Lukas
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> works at
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> his
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> job focusing on certain areas currently seen there as
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> urgent ones
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> and I
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> appreciate this opportunity. Anybody else seeing a need
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> to
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> work
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> on
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> other areas is welcome to contribute to whatever sees
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> fit,
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> as I
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> do.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Regards,
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Milan
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>
>>>
>> _______________________________________________
>> Blinux-list mailing list
>> Blinux-list at redhat.com
>> https://listman.redhat.com/mailman/listinfo/blinux-list
>>
>>
>
>
> --
> Scam victim? Tell your story at www.scam911.org/surviving-the-scam
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>
> _______________________________________________
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^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 78+ messages in thread
* "Accessibility in Fedora Workstation" (fwd)
` blinux-list
@ ` blinux-list
` blinux-list
0 siblings, 1 reply; 78+ messages in thread
From: blinux-list @ UTC (permalink / raw)
Might I ask what the firetruck this has to do w/Linux accessibility, &
why this branch of the discussion is allowed to persist, except, of
course, for the fact there's no moderator.
Come on, yall--this is normally a productive list--it's now nothing
more than a dumpster fire. Can yall *please* QUIT!
On 8/17/22, Linux for blind general discussion <blinux-list at redhat.com> wrote:
> Glen,
> I have no reason to follow up on anything. The role of a commission, and
> the duty of a rehab system employee are two different things.
> that you state you work for a nfb philosophy rehab office speaks volumes
> for your integrity.
> clearly your staff simply tell this commission what they want to hear, or
> they exist in name only.
> nothing changes your description of your state.
>
>
>
> On Wed, 17 Aug 2022, K0LNY_Glenn wrote:
>
>> I knew you wouldn't follow up on it, they would just laugh at you.
>> Glenn
>> ----- Original Message -----
>> From: "Karen Lewellen" <klewellen at shellworld.net>
>> To: "K0LNY_Glenn" <glenn at ervin.email>
>> Cc: "Butch Bussen" <butchb at shellworld.net>; "John G. Heim"
>> <jheim at wisc.edu>;
>> <speakup at linux-speakup.org>; "Milan Zamazal" <pdm at zamazal.org>;
>> <Blinux-list at redhat.com>
>> Sent: Wednesday, August 17, 2022 4:48 PM
>> Subject: Re: "Accessibility in Fedora Workstation" (fwd)
>>
>>
>> Glen,
>> why would I bother?
>> your own words as a seasoned employee speak for themselves.
>> Nebraska is an NFB philosophy state.
>> Were you here in Ontario, that could be a human rights violation, since
>> here the code establishes that claiming everyone sharing a label
>> accommodates the same is a violation of the individual's human rights.
>> No wonder the state of new York supported my professional move, if rehab
>> systems like yours are Nfb puppets.
>> The commission is not the individual rehab staffer, who states he makes
>> decisions using a NFB dictionary.
>>
>>
>>
>> On Wed, 17 Aug 2022, K0LNY_Glenn wrote:
>>
>>> Karen,
>>> Start out at the web site for
>>> Nebraska Commission for the Blind.
>>> There are links to communicate with all the board members, who are
>>> appointed
>>> by the governor.
>>> Glenn
>>> ----- Original Message -----
>>> From: "Karen Lewellen" <klewellen at shellworld.net>
>>> To: "K0LNY_Glenn" <glenn at ervin.email>
>>> Cc: "Butch Bussen" <butchb at shellworld.net>; "John G. Heim"
>>> <jheim at wisc.edu>;
>>> <speakup at linux-speakup.org>; "Milan Zamazal" <pdm at zamazal.org>;
>>> <Blinux-list at redhat.com>
>>> Sent: Wednesday, August 17, 2022 4:24 PM
>>> Subject: Re: "Accessibility in Fedora Workstation" (fwd)
>>>
>>>
>>> Do what?
>>> where I am it is actually a violation of vendor contract to tell someone
>>> they must use a certain tool.
>>> give them the chance in an office to try several things yes.
>>> Force jaws down their throat like rehab does no.
>>> I said I wished I knew someone in Nebraska media not that I
>>> did...although
>>> perhaps.
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> On Wed, 17 Aug 2022, K0LNY_Glenn wrote:
>>>
>>>> Please do.
>>>>
>>>> ----- Original Message -----
>>>> From: "Karen Lewellen" <klewellen at shellworld.net>
>>>> To: "K0LNY_Glenn" <glenn at ervin.email>
>>>> Cc: "Butch Bussen" <butchb at shellworld.net>; "John G. Heim"
>>>> <jheim at wisc.edu>;
>>>> <speakup at linux-speakup.org>; "Milan Zamazal" <pdm at zamazal.org>;
>>>> <Blinux-list at redhat.com>
>>>> Sent: Wednesday, August 17, 2022 3:46 PM
>>>> Subject: Re: "Accessibility in Fedora Workstation" (fwd)
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> Glen,
>>>> you are missing the point.
>>>> A commission board, at least if constructed with integrity serves as a
>>>> watchdog for your organization's activities.
>>>> Making sure that you act, objectively, and above influence with
>>>> government
>>>> funding.
>>>> That role differs from a public servant, like yourself.
>>>> In fact that the commission has members from both organizations is
>>>> exactly why you should not be a member.
>>>> if, as you said, the state has an Nfb philosophy, I wonder just how
>>>> above
>>>> influence that commission actually is, lip service attendance does not
>>>> translate to the statement you freely made.
>>>> Honestly, i wish I knew someone with Nebraska public radio. there is a
>>>> investigative, data journalism piece right here, exploring how
>>>> objective
>>>> your office is in fact.
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> On Wed, 17 Aug 2022, K0LNY_Glenn wrote:
>>>>
>>>>> Karen,
>>>>> In Nebraska, the commission board attends both consumer groups' state
>>>>> conventions.
>>>>> So there is total transparency within the consumer groups.
>>>>> The agency sends clients to both conventions for educational purposes.
>>>>> Some can go to either national convention on the state.
>>>>> Glenn
>>>>> ----- Original Message -----
>>>>> From: "Karen Lewellen" <klewellen at shellworld.net>
>>>>> To: "K0LNY_Glenn" <glenn at ervin.email>
>>>>> Cc: "Butch Bussen" <butchb at shellworld.net>; "John G. Heim"
>>>>> <jheim at wisc.edu>;
>>>>> <speakup at linux-speakup.org>; "Milan Zamazal" <pdm at zamazal.org>;
>>>>> <Blinux-list at redhat.com>
>>>>> Sent: Wednesday, August 17, 2022 2:06 PM
>>>>> Subject: Re: "Accessibility in Fedora Workstation" (fwd)
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> wrong.
>>>>> Your first duty is to those clients You serve. as illustrated here
>>>>> the
>>>>> Nfb
>>>>> used their ability to reach insiders to influence policy to the
>>>>> detriment
>>>>> of the broader community...same can clearly be said for freedom
>>>>> scientific.
>>>>> That you stated clearly that your rehab system runs on an nfb
>>>>> philosophy
>>>>> illustrates my point perfectly.
>>>>> There are countless legal terms for such conflicts of interest, I
>>>>> dare
>>>>> say if you were serving any other clientele your government watchdog
>>>>> would
>>>>> put a stop to the practice.
>>>>> allows the organization to have undue almost antitrust influence on
>>>>> people's lives.
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> On Wed, 17 Aug 2022, K0LNY_Glenn wrote:
>>>>>
>>>>>> I don't think so, we are people first, and being a government
>>>>>> employee
>>>>>> should not preclude personal rights.
>>>>>> Besides, I attended the conventions for CEU credits, but I never
>>>>>> joined
>>>>>> with
>>>>>> dues.
>>>>>> Glenn
>>>>>> ----- Original Message -----
>>>>>> From: "Karen Lewellen" <klewellen at shellworld.net>
>>>>>> To: "K0LNY_Glenn" <glenn at ervin.email>
>>>>>> Cc: "Butch Bussen" <butchb at shellworld.net>; "John G. Heim"
>>>>>> <jheim at wisc.edu>;
>>>>>> <speakup at linux-speakup.org>; "Milan Zamazal" <pdm at zamazal.org>;
>>>>>> <Blinux-list at redhat.com>
>>>>>> Sent: Wednesday, August 17, 2022 11:36 AM
>>>>>> Subject: Re: "Accessibility in Fedora Workstation" (fwd)
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>> speaking personally?
>>>>>> No government employee should be a member of the NfB. ethical
>>>>>> conflict
>>>>>> of interest personified.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Karen
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>> On Wed, 17 Aug 2022, K0LNY_Glenn wrote:
>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Yeah, I had been to a state NFBN convention that year and did the
>>>>>>> PAC
>>>>>>> thing.
>>>>>>> Then when the NFB did that, I called up the state treasurer for the
>>>>>>> NFBN
>>>>>>> and
>>>>>>> cancelled my PAC plan.
>>>>>>> I told them that they don't care if I can read my money, then they
>>>>>>> don't
>>>>>>> need any from me.
>>>>>>> Glenn
>>>>>>> ----- Original Message -----
>>>>>>> From: "Karen Lewellen" <klewellen at shellworld.net>
>>>>>>> To: "Butch Bussen" <butchb at shellworld.net>
>>>>>>> Cc: "John G. Heim" <jheim at wisc.edu>; "K0LNY_Glenn"
>>>>>>> <glenn at ervin.email>;
>>>>>>> <speakup at linux-speakup.org>; "Milan Zamazal" <pdm at zamazal.org>;
>>>>>>> <Blinux-list at redhat.com>
>>>>>>> Sent: Wednesday, August 17, 2022 11:18 AM
>>>>>>> Subject: Re: "Accessibility in Fedora Workstation" (fwd)
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> My personal favorite is the rejection of money that could be
>>>>>>> identified
>>>>>>> by touch. never mind that for honestly thousands of years the
>>>>>>> practice
>>>>>>> has
>>>>>>> been common so those with limited education could still engage in
>>>>>>> commerce.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> On Wed, 17 Aug 2022, Butch Bussen wrote:
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> Yes, I remember that. And what about their oposition to
>>>>>>>> descriptive
>>>>>>>> video,
>>>>>>>> even filed a law sute to get the law thrown out, which it was at
>>>>>>>> that
>>>>>>>> time.
>>>>>>>> 73
>>>>>>>> Butch
>>>>>>>> WA0VJR
>>>>>>>> Node 3148
>>>>>>>> Wallace, ks.
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> On Tue, 16 Aug 2022, John G. Heim wrote:
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> Holy cow! Are you aware that the NFB once asked Microsoft to
>>>>>>>>> *NOT*
>>>>>>>>> improve
>>>>>>>>> Narrator to the point where it would compete with Jaws? If you
>>>>>>>>> think
>>>>>>>>> the
>>>>>>>>> NFB is incapable of forcing choices on people, you are very sadly
>>>>>>>>> mistaken.
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> On 8/16/22 09:36, K0LNY_Glenn wrote:
>>>>>>>>>> This sort of thing would never happen in Nebraska, or any state
>>>>>>>>>> where
>>>>>>>>>> the
>>>>>>>>>> agency staff is of the NFB philosophy.
>>>>>>>>>> Say what you want about the NFB, no organization is without its
>>>>>>>>>> problems,
>>>>>>>>>> but it is the core philosophy that formed the NFB that knows
>>>>>>>>>> that
>>>>>>>>>> society
>>>>>>>>>> has low expectations of the Blind, and this is why the NFB
>>>>>>>>>> believes
>>>>>>>>>> in
>>>>>>>>>> skills and high expectations.
>>>>>>>>>> And with that, comes giving respect to the Blind, like the
>>>>>>>>>> respect
>>>>>>>>>> of
>>>>>>>>>> choice.
>>>>>>>>>> Yeah I know about the information of recent about NFB abuse,
>>>>>>>>>> but
>>>>>>>>>> this
>>>>>>>>>> is
>>>>>>>>>> organizational issues, unrelated to the philosophy. In fact,
>>>>>>>>>> the
>>>>>>>>>> fact
>>>>>>>>>> that
>>>>>>>>>> it has come up demonstrates that the NFB is no different than
>>>>>>>>>> any
>>>>>>>>>> other
>>>>>>>>>> organization in interpersonal staff issues.
>>>>>>>>>> And choice does not mean training center choices.
>>>>>>>>>> Choice isn't always an option, just like if you took a
>>>>>>>>>> vocational
>>>>>>>>>> course
>>>>>>>>>> in
>>>>>>>>>> college, there are things you have to take, so to me, the lack
>>>>>>>>>> of
>>>>>>>>>> choice
>>>>>>>>>> in
>>>>>>>>>> this regard is different than computer software, where all the
>>>>>>>>>> choices
>>>>>>>>>> will
>>>>>>>>>> reach the same end result.
>>>>>>>>>> In states where the NFB philosophy is embraced, if a client
>>>>>>>>>> said
>>>>>>>>>> I
>>>>>>>>>> want
>>>>>>>>>> to
>>>>>>>>>> use a Mac, or I want Window Eyes, then that is what they would
>>>>>>>>>> get,
>>>>>>>>>> no
>>>>>>>>>> questions asked.
>>>>>>>>>> They would not have to fight to get it.
>>>>>>>>>> I simply cannot imagine a counselor saying that someone has to
>>>>>>>>>> use
>>>>>>>>>> the
>>>>>>>>>> software that the counselor wants them to have.
>>>>>>>>>> When I hear that stuff, I almost cannot believe it, but I know
>>>>>>>>>> Butch
>>>>>>>>>> well
>>>>>>>>>> enough to know he wouldn't make that up.
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> Glenn
>>>>>>>>>> ----- Original Message -----
>>>>>>>>>> From: "Butch Bussen" <butchb at shellworld.net>
>>>>>>>>>> To: "Karen Lewellen" <klewellen at shellworld.net>
>>>>>>>>>> Cc: "K0LNY_Glenn" <glenn at ervin.email>;
>>>>>>>>>> <speakup at linux-speakup.org>;
>>>>>>>>>> "Milan
>>>>>>>>>> Zamazal" <pdm at zamazal.org>; <Blinux-list at redhat.com>
>>>>>>>>>> Sent: Tuesday, August 16, 2022 8:18 AM
>>>>>>>>>> Subject: Re: "Accessibility in Fedora Workstation" (fwd)
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> You are right. In Nevada, freedom pushed jaws to the rehab
>>>>>>>>>> people
>>>>>>>>>> and
>>>>>>>>>> took them out for steak diners and so forth. I fought like
>>>>>>>>>> hell
>>>>>>>>>> to
>>>>>>>>>> get
>>>>>>>>>> them to buy window-eyes.
>>>>>>>>>> 73
>>>>>>>>>> Butch
>>>>>>>>>> WA0VJR
>>>>>>>>>> Node 3148
>>>>>>>>>> Wallace, ks.
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> On Sun, 14 Aug 2022, Karen Lewellen wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>> And where do these employers learn about jaws?
>>>>>>>>>>> In fact, provide if you do not mind an example of how this
>>>>>>>>>>> works
>>>>>>>>>>> exactly.
>>>>>>>>>>> after all, unless I am incorrect, these employers are not
>>>>>>>>>>> personal
>>>>>>>>>>> Jaws
>>>>>>>>>>> users, meaning someone they trust continues to sell them on an
>>>>>>>>>>> expensive
>>>>>>>>>>> program instead of a largely free one.
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>> On Sat, 13 Aug 2022, K0LNY_Glenn wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>> Karen,
>>>>>>>>>>>> Most employers don't want NVDA, and will only allow Jaws.
>>>>>>>>>>>> In Nebraska, if an employer said put on whatever works, the
>>>>>>>>>>>> counselors
>>>>>>>>>>>> will
>>>>>>>>>>>> use NVDA, because of the cost of Jaws.
>>>>>>>>>>>> If some of the clients in a call center already use Jaws,
>>>>>>>>>>>> but
>>>>>>>>>>>> don't know
>>>>>>>>>>>> NVDA, the counselor will use Jaws, because the other
>>>>>>>>>>>> clients
>>>>>>>>>>>> will
>>>>>>>>>>>> need
>>>>>>>>>>>> to
>>>>>>>>>>>> learn one of the two.
>>>>>>>>>>>> So it's all choice, but in the workplace, it depends on
>>>>>>>>>>>> what
>>>>>>>>>>>> the
>>>>>>>>>>>> employer
>>>>>>>>>>>> will allow.
>>>>>>>>>>>> Also, sometimes scripts need to be made, and there are more
>>>>>>>>>>>> Jaws
>>>>>>>>>>>> scripters
>>>>>>>>>>>> available than there are NVDA add-on writers.
>>>>>>>>>>>> So this perception that Jaws is forced by rehab, from my 31
>>>>>>>>>>>> years
>>>>>>>>>>>> in the
>>>>>>>>>>>> business I can say is rubbish.
>>>>>>>>>>>> Now, if a counselor did not know how to use NVDA, and
>>>>>>>>>>>> either
>>>>>>>>>>>> may
>>>>>>>>>>>> be
>>>>>>>>>>>> chosen,
>>>>>>>>>>>> the rehab counselor is able to select the one that the
>>>>>>>>>>>> counselor
>>>>>>>>>>>> feels
>>>>>>>>>>>> is
>>>>>>>>>>>> best for the student and for the counselor's teaching.
>>>>>>>>>>>> When it comes to part B moneys, which is used for
>>>>>>>>>>>> non-vocational
>>>>>>>>>>>> purchases,
>>>>>>>>>>>> where a lot of Jaws purchases come from, it is in the
>>>>>>>>>>>> agency's
>>>>>>>>>>>> best
>>>>>>>>>>>> interest
>>>>>>>>>>>> to spend as little as possible, because that doesn't come
>>>>>>>>>>>> back
>>>>>>>>>>>> like VR
>>>>>>>>>>>> expenditures do.
>>>>>>>>>>>> Glenn
>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>> ----- Original Message -----
>>>>>>>>>>>> From: "Karen Lewellen" <klewellen at shellworld.net>
>>>>>>>>>>>> To: "K0LNY_Glenn" <glenn at ervin.email>
>>>>>>>>>>>> Cc: <speakup at linux-speakup.org>; "Milan Zamazal"
>>>>>>>>>>>> <pdm at zamazal.org>;
>>>>>>>>>>>> <Blinux-list at redhat.com>
>>>>>>>>>>>> Sent: Saturday, August 13, 2022 6:15 PM
>>>>>>>>>>>> Subject: Re: "Accessibility in Fedora Workstation" (fwd)
>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>> The challenge with that example is that, as one often gets
>>>>>>>>>>>> reminded,
>>>>>>>>>>>> the
>>>>>>>>>>>> rehab systems track record for facilitating employment for
>>>>>>>>>>>> their
>>>>>>>>>>>> clients
>>>>>>>>>>>> is quite poor.
>>>>>>>>>>>> With a high percentage of unemployment among our clients.
>>>>>>>>>>>> Making,
>>>>>>>>>>>> speaking personally, your buying Jaws for personal use not
>>>>>>>>>>>> really
>>>>>>>>>>>> reflecting how the system would respond to an alternative
>>>>>>>>>>>> request.
>>>>>>>>>>>> Now if someone from organized rehab said, okay freedom
>>>>>>>>>>>> scientific, we
>>>>>>>>>>>> are
>>>>>>>>>>>> creating an employment program where our clients will train
>>>>>>>>>>>> in
>>>>>>>>>>>> Linux,
>>>>>>>>>>>> needing a solid screen reader solution for the system. We
>>>>>>>>>>>> will
>>>>>>>>>>>> give you
>>>>>>>>>>>> an
>>>>>>>>>>>> exclusive development contract for s millions to create the
>>>>>>>>>>>> tool.
>>>>>>>>>>>> Fs would likely say where do we sign?
>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>> On Sat, 13 Aug 2022, K0LNY_Glenn wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>> True enough, but largely, rehab people typically use
>>>>>>>>>>>>> Windows
>>>>>>>>>>>>> at
>>>>>>>>>>>>> work,
>>>>>>>>>>>>> and
>>>>>>>>>>>>> probably at home, but they need to cater to the needs of
>>>>>>>>>>>>> the
>>>>>>>>>>>>> client.
>>>>>>>>>>>>> If a client used Linux, I doubt that any rehab counselor
>>>>>>>>>>>>> would
>>>>>>>>>>>>> advocate
>>>>>>>>>>>>> that
>>>>>>>>>>>>> the client switch to Windows, unless that was needed for a
>>>>>>>>>>>>> specific
>>>>>>>>>>>>> job.
>>>>>>>>>>>>> In Nebraska, we purchased Jaws much more for personal use
>>>>>>>>>>>>> than
>>>>>>>>>>>>> we did
>>>>>>>>>>>>> for
>>>>>>>>>>>>> work related situations.
>>>>>>>>>>>>> So if FS made a JFL, and people were using Linux, rehab
>>>>>>>>>>>>> would
>>>>>>>>>>>>> indeed
>>>>>>>>>>>>> purchase a JFL product.
>>>>>>>>>>>>> Glenn
>>>>>>>>>>>>> ----- Original Message -----
>>>>>>>>>>>>> From: "Karen Lewellen" <klewellen at shellworld.net>
>>>>>>>>>>>>> To: "K0LNY_Glenn" <glenn at ervin.email>
>>>>>>>>>>>>> Cc: <speakup at linux-speakup.org>; "Milan Zamazal"
>>>>>>>>>>>>> <pdm at zamazal.org>;
>>>>>>>>>>>>> <Blinux-list at redhat.com>
>>>>>>>>>>>>> Sent: Saturday, August 13, 2022 3:01 PM
>>>>>>>>>>>>> Subject: Re: "Accessibility in Fedora Workstation" (fwd)
>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>> there was an interesting discussion a month or so back on
>>>>>>>>>>>>> the
>>>>>>>>>>>>> blinux
>>>>>>>>>>>>> list
>>>>>>>>>>>>> about how long it took completing tasks in the gui as
>>>>>>>>>>>>> apposed
>>>>>>>>>>>>> to say
>>>>>>>>>>>>> command line, the comments were quite informative.
>>>>>>>>>>>>> Still, fs has never marketed largely to the end user.
>>>>>>>>>>>>> Instead
>>>>>>>>>>>>> they
>>>>>>>>>>>>> market
>>>>>>>>>>>>> to the American rehab community.
>>>>>>>>>>>>> how much market research has the rehab community done to
>>>>>>>>>>>>> support the
>>>>>>>>>>>>> need
>>>>>>>>>>>>> for choices?
>>>>>>>>>>>>> How many rehab counselors support training in Linux?
>>>>>>>>>>>>> one comment made by the subject of this thread about poor
>>>>>>>>>>>>> quality
>>>>>>>>>>>>> speech
>>>>>>>>>>>>> is a fine one...out of the box Linux has few speech
>>>>>>>>>>>>> choices.
>>>>>>>>>>>>> everyone
>>>>>>>>>>>>> brings their needs to the table there.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>> if you want to get fs to care about Linux, you need to
>>>>>>>>>>>>> prove
>>>>>>>>>>>>> there is
>>>>>>>>>>>>> money for them there, from their main source of income.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>> On Sat, 13 Aug 2022, K0LNY_Glenn wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Well since Orca seems to work on so many distros, I don't
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> know why
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> FS
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> would
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> not be able to do the same.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> If Jaws users could switch into Linux, it would be a real
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> game
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> changer,
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> and
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> I think with lots more Blind Linux users, we would start
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> seeing
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> accessibility in Linux not being a second thought.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Glenn
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> ----- Original Message -----
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> From: "Karen Lewellen" <klewellen at shellworld.net>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> To: "K0LNY_Glenn" <glenn at ervin.email>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Cc: <speakup at linux-speakup.org>; "Milan Zamazal"
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> <pdm at zamazal.org>;
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> <Blinux-list at redhat.com>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Sent: Saturday, August 13, 2022 1:47 PM
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Subject: Re: "Accessibility in Fedora Workstation" (fwd)
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Well technically freedom scientific does not exist any
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> longer, being
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> bought
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> by another company.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Still, I can respect why they, or nvda have not created
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> their
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> tools
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> for
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Linux.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> That is because as I understand it, Linux is quite like
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> clay. You
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> can
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> mold a distribution into almost anything. there are
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> various
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> personifications of the system, all sorts of ways and
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> changes
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> and
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> options
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> for creativity.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> however adaptive tools are often extensions of physical
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> characteristics,
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> hands, eyes, ears, brains, combinations of these.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> To build solid assistive tools one must have a solid
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> foundation as
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> it
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> were. that is part of why there have needed to be so few
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Apple
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> efforts
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> at
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> inclusion, they created with, and then created in-house
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> adaptive
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> tools
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> for various populations that were built into the system.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Although Microsoft did not bother until much later, in
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> theory
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> at
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> least,
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> the
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> consistency of windows is what makes it possible for
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> freedom
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> or the
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> former
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> gw micro or nvda to create something that can in theory
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> work.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Floor for the furniture is somewhat solid.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Just my thoughts,
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> On Sat, 13 Aug 2022, K0LNY_Glenn wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> I would like to see Freedom Scientific make a Jaws For
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Linux.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> JFL
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> I'd certainly pay the yearly rental fee for it, and it
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> would bring
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> many
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> more
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> users into Linux.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> FS could, with its resources, possibly make it more
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> robust
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> than
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Orca.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Glenn
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> ----- Original Message -----
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> From: "Milan Zamazal" <pdm at zamazal.org>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> To: <speakup at linux-speakup.org>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Cc: <Blinux-list at redhat.com>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Sent: Saturday, August 13, 2022 12:08 PM
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Subject: Re: "Accessibility in Fedora Workstation" (fwd)
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> "KL" == Karen Lewellen
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> <klewellen at shellworld.net>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> writes:
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> KL> What bothers me most are his lack of actual
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> qualifications,
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> and
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> KL> absolute dismissal of what he has not experienced..as
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> if
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> KL> he
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> KL> defines Linux usage for everyone. That attitude is
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> KL> dangerous,
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> KL> because he is educating those outside of the
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> KL> accessibility
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> KL> experiences, who will believe his ignorance is
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> factual.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> KL> he
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> has
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> KL> to be expert, it is his job.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Hi Karen,
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> I know Lukas personally and I admire his skills and
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> qualifications.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> I
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> also know first hand that he is open to constructive
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> feedback and
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> I
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> believe he???Td be happy to be corrected about possible
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> technical
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> inaccuracies in the interview. It may be also a good
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> opportunity
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> to
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> find out what???Ts possibly missing in making anybody
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> better
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> informed.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> As for ???oabsolute dismissal of what he has not
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> experienced?????,
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> what
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> reasonable free software alternatives to a less or more
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> standard
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> desktop
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> with Orca and a software synthesizer can you see for a
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> common
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> blind
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> user
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> who needs to use a fully working web browser, to read
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> and
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> process
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> text
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> documents, to be compatible with other computer users,
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> etc.?
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> And let???Ts be realistic. We celebrate every single
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> developer
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> hired
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> to
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> improve accessibility. This tells something about the
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> state of
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> the
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> matters. We cannot expect that a single person will fix
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> all the
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> kinds
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> of accessibility problems in all the environments.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Lukas
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> works at
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> his
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> job focusing on certain areas currently seen there as
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> urgent ones
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> and I
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> appreciate this opportunity. Anybody else seeing a need
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> to
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> work
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> on
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> other areas is welcome to contribute to whatever sees
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> fit,
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> as I
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> do.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Regards,
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Milan
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>
>>
> _______________________________________________
> Blinux-list mailing list
> Blinux-list at redhat.com
> https://listman.redhat.com/mailman/listinfo/blinux-list
>
>
--
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^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 78+ messages in thread
* "Accessibility in Fedora Workstation" (fwd)
[not found] ` <004a01d8b2a6$e6f1ef40$80ffa8c0@Win7VM>
@ ` blinux-list
` blinux-list
0 siblings, 1 reply; 78+ messages in thread
From: blinux-list @ UTC (permalink / raw)
Glen,
I have no reason to follow up on anything. The role of a commission, and
the duty of a rehab system employee are two different things.
that you state you work for a nfb philosophy rehab office speaks volumes
for your integrity.
clearly your staff simply tell this commission what they want to hear, or
they exist in name only.
nothing changes your description of your state.
On Wed, 17 Aug 2022, K0LNY_Glenn wrote:
> I knew you wouldn't follow up on it, they would just laugh at you.
> Glenn
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: "Karen Lewellen" <klewellen at shellworld.net>
> To: "K0LNY_Glenn" <glenn at ervin.email>
> Cc: "Butch Bussen" <butchb at shellworld.net>; "John G. Heim" <jheim at wisc.edu>;
> <speakup at linux-speakup.org>; "Milan Zamazal" <pdm at zamazal.org>;
> <Blinux-list at redhat.com>
> Sent: Wednesday, August 17, 2022 4:48 PM
> Subject: Re: "Accessibility in Fedora Workstation" (fwd)
>
>
> Glen,
> why would I bother?
> your own words as a seasoned employee speak for themselves.
> Nebraska is an NFB philosophy state.
> Were you here in Ontario, that could be a human rights violation, since
> here the code establishes that claiming everyone sharing a label
> accommodates the same is a violation of the individual's human rights.
> No wonder the state of new York supported my professional move, if rehab
> systems like yours are Nfb puppets.
> The commission is not the individual rehab staffer, who states he makes
> decisions using a NFB dictionary.
>
>
>
> On Wed, 17 Aug 2022, K0LNY_Glenn wrote:
>
>> Karen,
>> Start out at the web site for
>> Nebraska Commission for the Blind.
>> There are links to communicate with all the board members, who are
>> appointed
>> by the governor.
>> Glenn
>> ----- Original Message -----
>> From: "Karen Lewellen" <klewellen at shellworld.net>
>> To: "K0LNY_Glenn" <glenn at ervin.email>
>> Cc: "Butch Bussen" <butchb at shellworld.net>; "John G. Heim"
>> <jheim at wisc.edu>;
>> <speakup at linux-speakup.org>; "Milan Zamazal" <pdm at zamazal.org>;
>> <Blinux-list at redhat.com>
>> Sent: Wednesday, August 17, 2022 4:24 PM
>> Subject: Re: "Accessibility in Fedora Workstation" (fwd)
>>
>>
>> Do what?
>> where I am it is actually a violation of vendor contract to tell someone
>> they must use a certain tool.
>> give them the chance in an office to try several things yes.
>> Force jaws down their throat like rehab does no.
>> I said I wished I knew someone in Nebraska media not that I did...although
>> perhaps.
>>
>>
>>
>> On Wed, 17 Aug 2022, K0LNY_Glenn wrote:
>>
>>> Please do.
>>>
>>> ----- Original Message -----
>>> From: "Karen Lewellen" <klewellen at shellworld.net>
>>> To: "K0LNY_Glenn" <glenn at ervin.email>
>>> Cc: "Butch Bussen" <butchb at shellworld.net>; "John G. Heim"
>>> <jheim at wisc.edu>;
>>> <speakup at linux-speakup.org>; "Milan Zamazal" <pdm at zamazal.org>;
>>> <Blinux-list at redhat.com>
>>> Sent: Wednesday, August 17, 2022 3:46 PM
>>> Subject: Re: "Accessibility in Fedora Workstation" (fwd)
>>>
>>>
>>> Glen,
>>> you are missing the point.
>>> A commission board, at least if constructed with integrity serves as a
>>> watchdog for your organization's activities.
>>> Making sure that you act, objectively, and above influence with
>>> government
>>> funding.
>>> That role differs from a public servant, like yourself.
>>> In fact that the commission has members from both organizations is
>>> exactly why you should not be a member.
>>> if, as you said, the state has an Nfb philosophy, I wonder just how
>>> above
>>> influence that commission actually is, lip service attendance does not
>>> translate to the statement you freely made.
>>> Honestly, i wish I knew someone with Nebraska public radio. there is a
>>> investigative, data journalism piece right here, exploring how objective
>>> your office is in fact.
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> On Wed, 17 Aug 2022, K0LNY_Glenn wrote:
>>>
>>>> Karen,
>>>> In Nebraska, the commission board attends both consumer groups' state
>>>> conventions.
>>>> So there is total transparency within the consumer groups.
>>>> The agency sends clients to both conventions for educational purposes.
>>>> Some can go to either national convention on the state.
>>>> Glenn
>>>> ----- Original Message -----
>>>> From: "Karen Lewellen" <klewellen at shellworld.net>
>>>> To: "K0LNY_Glenn" <glenn at ervin.email>
>>>> Cc: "Butch Bussen" <butchb at shellworld.net>; "John G. Heim"
>>>> <jheim at wisc.edu>;
>>>> <speakup at linux-speakup.org>; "Milan Zamazal" <pdm at zamazal.org>;
>>>> <Blinux-list at redhat.com>
>>>> Sent: Wednesday, August 17, 2022 2:06 PM
>>>> Subject: Re: "Accessibility in Fedora Workstation" (fwd)
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> wrong.
>>>> Your first duty is to those clients You serve. as illustrated here the
>>>> Nfb
>>>> used their ability to reach insiders to influence policy to the
>>>> detriment
>>>> of the broader community...same can clearly be said for freedom
>>>> scientific.
>>>> That you stated clearly that your rehab system runs on an nfb
>>>> philosophy
>>>> illustrates my point perfectly.
>>>> There are countless legal terms for such conflicts of interest, I dare
>>>> say if you were serving any other clientele your government watchdog
>>>> would
>>>> put a stop to the practice.
>>>> allows the organization to have undue almost antitrust influence on
>>>> people's lives.
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> On Wed, 17 Aug 2022, K0LNY_Glenn wrote:
>>>>
>>>>> I don't think so, we are people first, and being a government employee
>>>>> should not preclude personal rights.
>>>>> Besides, I attended the conventions for CEU credits, but I never joined
>>>>> with
>>>>> dues.
>>>>> Glenn
>>>>> ----- Original Message -----
>>>>> From: "Karen Lewellen" <klewellen at shellworld.net>
>>>>> To: "K0LNY_Glenn" <glenn at ervin.email>
>>>>> Cc: "Butch Bussen" <butchb at shellworld.net>; "John G. Heim"
>>>>> <jheim at wisc.edu>;
>>>>> <speakup at linux-speakup.org>; "Milan Zamazal" <pdm at zamazal.org>;
>>>>> <Blinux-list at redhat.com>
>>>>> Sent: Wednesday, August 17, 2022 11:36 AM
>>>>> Subject: Re: "Accessibility in Fedora Workstation" (fwd)
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> speaking personally?
>>>>> No government employee should be a member of the NfB. ethical
>>>>> conflict
>>>>> of interest personified.
>>>>>
>>>>> Karen
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> On Wed, 17 Aug 2022, K0LNY_Glenn wrote:
>>>>>
>>>>>> Yeah, I had been to a state NFBN convention that year and did the PAC
>>>>>> thing.
>>>>>> Then when the NFB did that, I called up the state treasurer for the
>>>>>> NFBN
>>>>>> and
>>>>>> cancelled my PAC plan.
>>>>>> I told them that they don't care if I can read my money, then they
>>>>>> don't
>>>>>> need any from me.
>>>>>> Glenn
>>>>>> ----- Original Message -----
>>>>>> From: "Karen Lewellen" <klewellen at shellworld.net>
>>>>>> To: "Butch Bussen" <butchb at shellworld.net>
>>>>>> Cc: "John G. Heim" <jheim at wisc.edu>; "K0LNY_Glenn"
>>>>>> <glenn at ervin.email>;
>>>>>> <speakup at linux-speakup.org>; "Milan Zamazal" <pdm at zamazal.org>;
>>>>>> <Blinux-list at redhat.com>
>>>>>> Sent: Wednesday, August 17, 2022 11:18 AM
>>>>>> Subject: Re: "Accessibility in Fedora Workstation" (fwd)
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>> My personal favorite is the rejection of money that could be
>>>>>> identified
>>>>>> by touch. never mind that for honestly thousands of years the
>>>>>> practice
>>>>>> has
>>>>>> been common so those with limited education could still engage in
>>>>>> commerce.
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>> On Wed, 17 Aug 2022, Butch Bussen wrote:
>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Yes, I remember that. And what about their oposition to descriptive
>>>>>>> video,
>>>>>>> even filed a law sute to get the law thrown out, which it was at that
>>>>>>> time.
>>>>>>> 73
>>>>>>> Butch
>>>>>>> WA0VJR
>>>>>>> Node 3148
>>>>>>> Wallace, ks.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> On Tue, 16 Aug 2022, John G. Heim wrote:
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> Holy cow! Are you aware that the NFB once asked Microsoft to *NOT*
>>>>>>>> improve
>>>>>>>> Narrator to the point where it would compete with Jaws? If you
>>>>>>>> think
>>>>>>>> the
>>>>>>>> NFB is incapable of forcing choices on people, you are very sadly
>>>>>>>> mistaken.
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> On 8/16/22 09:36, K0LNY_Glenn wrote:
>>>>>>>>> This sort of thing would never happen in Nebraska, or any state
>>>>>>>>> where
>>>>>>>>> the
>>>>>>>>> agency staff is of the NFB philosophy.
>>>>>>>>> Say what you want about the NFB, no organization is without its
>>>>>>>>> problems,
>>>>>>>>> but it is the core philosophy that formed the NFB that knows that
>>>>>>>>> society
>>>>>>>>> has low expectations of the Blind, and this is why the NFB
>>>>>>>>> believes
>>>>>>>>> in
>>>>>>>>> skills and high expectations.
>>>>>>>>> And with that, comes giving respect to the Blind, like the
>>>>>>>>> respect
>>>>>>>>> of
>>>>>>>>> choice.
>>>>>>>>> Yeah I know about the information of recent about NFB abuse, but
>>>>>>>>> this
>>>>>>>>> is
>>>>>>>>> organizational issues, unrelated to the philosophy. In fact, the
>>>>>>>>> fact
>>>>>>>>> that
>>>>>>>>> it has come up demonstrates that the NFB is no different than any
>>>>>>>>> other
>>>>>>>>> organization in interpersonal staff issues.
>>>>>>>>> And choice does not mean training center choices.
>>>>>>>>> Choice isn't always an option, just like if you took a vocational
>>>>>>>>> course
>>>>>>>>> in
>>>>>>>>> college, there are things you have to take, so to me, the lack of
>>>>>>>>> choice
>>>>>>>>> in
>>>>>>>>> this regard is different than computer software, where all the
>>>>>>>>> choices
>>>>>>>>> will
>>>>>>>>> reach the same end result.
>>>>>>>>> In states where the NFB philosophy is embraced, if a client said
>>>>>>>>> I
>>>>>>>>> want
>>>>>>>>> to
>>>>>>>>> use a Mac, or I want Window Eyes, then that is what they would
>>>>>>>>> get,
>>>>>>>>> no
>>>>>>>>> questions asked.
>>>>>>>>> They would not have to fight to get it.
>>>>>>>>> I simply cannot imagine a counselor saying that someone has to
>>>>>>>>> use
>>>>>>>>> the
>>>>>>>>> software that the counselor wants them to have.
>>>>>>>>> When I hear that stuff, I almost cannot believe it, but I know
>>>>>>>>> Butch
>>>>>>>>> well
>>>>>>>>> enough to know he wouldn't make that up.
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> Glenn
>>>>>>>>> ----- Original Message -----
>>>>>>>>> From: "Butch Bussen" <butchb at shellworld.net>
>>>>>>>>> To: "Karen Lewellen" <klewellen at shellworld.net>
>>>>>>>>> Cc: "K0LNY_Glenn" <glenn at ervin.email>;
>>>>>>>>> <speakup at linux-speakup.org>;
>>>>>>>>> "Milan
>>>>>>>>> Zamazal" <pdm at zamazal.org>; <Blinux-list at redhat.com>
>>>>>>>>> Sent: Tuesday, August 16, 2022 8:18 AM
>>>>>>>>> Subject: Re: "Accessibility in Fedora Workstation" (fwd)
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> You are right. In Nevada, freedom pushed jaws to the rehab
>>>>>>>>> people
>>>>>>>>> and
>>>>>>>>> took them out for steak diners and so forth. I fought like hell
>>>>>>>>> to
>>>>>>>>> get
>>>>>>>>> them to buy window-eyes.
>>>>>>>>> 73
>>>>>>>>> Butch
>>>>>>>>> WA0VJR
>>>>>>>>> Node 3148
>>>>>>>>> Wallace, ks.
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> On Sun, 14 Aug 2022, Karen Lewellen wrote:
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> And where do these employers learn about jaws?
>>>>>>>>>> In fact, provide if you do not mind an example of how this
>>>>>>>>>> works
>>>>>>>>>> exactly.
>>>>>>>>>> after all, unless I am incorrect, these employers are not
>>>>>>>>>> personal
>>>>>>>>>> Jaws
>>>>>>>>>> users, meaning someone they trust continues to sell them on an
>>>>>>>>>> expensive
>>>>>>>>>> program instead of a largely free one.
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> On Sat, 13 Aug 2022, K0LNY_Glenn wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>> Karen,
>>>>>>>>>>> Most employers don't want NVDA, and will only allow Jaws.
>>>>>>>>>>> In Nebraska, if an employer said put on whatever works, the
>>>>>>>>>>> counselors
>>>>>>>>>>> will
>>>>>>>>>>> use NVDA, because of the cost of Jaws.
>>>>>>>>>>> If some of the clients in a call center already use Jaws, but
>>>>>>>>>>> don't know
>>>>>>>>>>> NVDA, the counselor will use Jaws, because the other clients
>>>>>>>>>>> will
>>>>>>>>>>> need
>>>>>>>>>>> to
>>>>>>>>>>> learn one of the two.
>>>>>>>>>>> So it's all choice, but in the workplace, it depends on what
>>>>>>>>>>> the
>>>>>>>>>>> employer
>>>>>>>>>>> will allow.
>>>>>>>>>>> Also, sometimes scripts need to be made, and there are more
>>>>>>>>>>> Jaws
>>>>>>>>>>> scripters
>>>>>>>>>>> available than there are NVDA add-on writers.
>>>>>>>>>>> So this perception that Jaws is forced by rehab, from my 31
>>>>>>>>>>> years
>>>>>>>>>>> in the
>>>>>>>>>>> business I can say is rubbish.
>>>>>>>>>>> Now, if a counselor did not know how to use NVDA, and either
>>>>>>>>>>> may
>>>>>>>>>>> be
>>>>>>>>>>> chosen,
>>>>>>>>>>> the rehab counselor is able to select the one that the
>>>>>>>>>>> counselor
>>>>>>>>>>> feels
>>>>>>>>>>> is
>>>>>>>>>>> best for the student and for the counselor's teaching.
>>>>>>>>>>> When it comes to part B moneys, which is used for
>>>>>>>>>>> non-vocational
>>>>>>>>>>> purchases,
>>>>>>>>>>> where a lot of Jaws purchases come from, it is in the
>>>>>>>>>>> agency's
>>>>>>>>>>> best
>>>>>>>>>>> interest
>>>>>>>>>>> to spend as little as possible, because that doesn't come
>>>>>>>>>>> back
>>>>>>>>>>> like VR
>>>>>>>>>>> expenditures do.
>>>>>>>>>>> Glenn
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>> ----- Original Message -----
>>>>>>>>>>> From: "Karen Lewellen" <klewellen at shellworld.net>
>>>>>>>>>>> To: "K0LNY_Glenn" <glenn at ervin.email>
>>>>>>>>>>> Cc: <speakup at linux-speakup.org>; "Milan Zamazal"
>>>>>>>>>>> <pdm at zamazal.org>;
>>>>>>>>>>> <Blinux-list at redhat.com>
>>>>>>>>>>> Sent: Saturday, August 13, 2022 6:15 PM
>>>>>>>>>>> Subject: Re: "Accessibility in Fedora Workstation" (fwd)
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>> The challenge with that example is that, as one often gets
>>>>>>>>>>> reminded,
>>>>>>>>>>> the
>>>>>>>>>>> rehab systems track record for facilitating employment for
>>>>>>>>>>> their
>>>>>>>>>>> clients
>>>>>>>>>>> is quite poor.
>>>>>>>>>>> With a high percentage of unemployment among our clients.
>>>>>>>>>>> Making,
>>>>>>>>>>> speaking personally, your buying Jaws for personal use not
>>>>>>>>>>> really
>>>>>>>>>>> reflecting how the system would respond to an alternative
>>>>>>>>>>> request.
>>>>>>>>>>> Now if someone from organized rehab said, okay freedom
>>>>>>>>>>> scientific, we
>>>>>>>>>>> are
>>>>>>>>>>> creating an employment program where our clients will train
>>>>>>>>>>> in
>>>>>>>>>>> Linux,
>>>>>>>>>>> needing a solid screen reader solution for the system. We
>>>>>>>>>>> will
>>>>>>>>>>> give you
>>>>>>>>>>> an
>>>>>>>>>>> exclusive development contract for s millions to create the
>>>>>>>>>>> tool.
>>>>>>>>>>> Fs would likely say where do we sign?
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>> On Sat, 13 Aug 2022, K0LNY_Glenn wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>> True enough, but largely, rehab people typically use Windows
>>>>>>>>>>>> at
>>>>>>>>>>>> work,
>>>>>>>>>>>> and
>>>>>>>>>>>> probably at home, but they need to cater to the needs of the
>>>>>>>>>>>> client.
>>>>>>>>>>>> If a client used Linux, I doubt that any rehab counselor
>>>>>>>>>>>> would
>>>>>>>>>>>> advocate
>>>>>>>>>>>> that
>>>>>>>>>>>> the client switch to Windows, unless that was needed for a
>>>>>>>>>>>> specific
>>>>>>>>>>>> job.
>>>>>>>>>>>> In Nebraska, we purchased Jaws much more for personal use
>>>>>>>>>>>> than
>>>>>>>>>>>> we did
>>>>>>>>>>>> for
>>>>>>>>>>>> work related situations.
>>>>>>>>>>>> So if FS made a JFL, and people were using Linux, rehab
>>>>>>>>>>>> would
>>>>>>>>>>>> indeed
>>>>>>>>>>>> purchase a JFL product.
>>>>>>>>>>>> Glenn
>>>>>>>>>>>> ----- Original Message -----
>>>>>>>>>>>> From: "Karen Lewellen" <klewellen at shellworld.net>
>>>>>>>>>>>> To: "K0LNY_Glenn" <glenn at ervin.email>
>>>>>>>>>>>> Cc: <speakup at linux-speakup.org>; "Milan Zamazal"
>>>>>>>>>>>> <pdm at zamazal.org>;
>>>>>>>>>>>> <Blinux-list at redhat.com>
>>>>>>>>>>>> Sent: Saturday, August 13, 2022 3:01 PM
>>>>>>>>>>>> Subject: Re: "Accessibility in Fedora Workstation" (fwd)
>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>> there was an interesting discussion a month or so back on
>>>>>>>>>>>> the
>>>>>>>>>>>> blinux
>>>>>>>>>>>> list
>>>>>>>>>>>> about how long it took completing tasks in the gui as
>>>>>>>>>>>> apposed
>>>>>>>>>>>> to say
>>>>>>>>>>>> command line, the comments were quite informative.
>>>>>>>>>>>> Still, fs has never marketed largely to the end user.
>>>>>>>>>>>> Instead
>>>>>>>>>>>> they
>>>>>>>>>>>> market
>>>>>>>>>>>> to the American rehab community.
>>>>>>>>>>>> how much market research has the rehab community done to
>>>>>>>>>>>> support the
>>>>>>>>>>>> need
>>>>>>>>>>>> for choices?
>>>>>>>>>>>> How many rehab counselors support training in Linux?
>>>>>>>>>>>> one comment made by the subject of this thread about poor
>>>>>>>>>>>> quality
>>>>>>>>>>>> speech
>>>>>>>>>>>> is a fine one...out of the box Linux has few speech choices.
>>>>>>>>>>>> everyone
>>>>>>>>>>>> brings their needs to the table there.
>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>> if you want to get fs to care about Linux, you need to
>>>>>>>>>>>> prove
>>>>>>>>>>>> there is
>>>>>>>>>>>> money for them there, from their main source of income.
>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>> On Sat, 13 Aug 2022, K0LNY_Glenn wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>> Well since Orca seems to work on so many distros, I don't
>>>>>>>>>>>>> know why
>>>>>>>>>>>>> FS
>>>>>>>>>>>>> would
>>>>>>>>>>>>> not be able to do the same.
>>>>>>>>>>>>> If Jaws users could switch into Linux, it would be a real
>>>>>>>>>>>>> game
>>>>>>>>>>>>> changer,
>>>>>>>>>>>>> and
>>>>>>>>>>>>> I think with lots more Blind Linux users, we would start
>>>>>>>>>>>>> seeing
>>>>>>>>>>>>> accessibility in Linux not being a second thought.
>>>>>>>>>>>>> Glenn
>>>>>>>>>>>>> ----- Original Message -----
>>>>>>>>>>>>> From: "Karen Lewellen" <klewellen at shellworld.net>
>>>>>>>>>>>>> To: "K0LNY_Glenn" <glenn at ervin.email>
>>>>>>>>>>>>> Cc: <speakup at linux-speakup.org>; "Milan Zamazal"
>>>>>>>>>>>>> <pdm at zamazal.org>;
>>>>>>>>>>>>> <Blinux-list at redhat.com>
>>>>>>>>>>>>> Sent: Saturday, August 13, 2022 1:47 PM
>>>>>>>>>>>>> Subject: Re: "Accessibility in Fedora Workstation" (fwd)
>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>> Well technically freedom scientific does not exist any
>>>>>>>>>>>>> longer, being
>>>>>>>>>>>>> bought
>>>>>>>>>>>>> by another company.
>>>>>>>>>>>>> Still, I can respect why they, or nvda have not created
>>>>>>>>>>>>> their
>>>>>>>>>>>>> tools
>>>>>>>>>>>>> for
>>>>>>>>>>>>> Linux.
>>>>>>>>>>>>> That is because as I understand it, Linux is quite like
>>>>>>>>>>>>> clay. You
>>>>>>>>>>>>> can
>>>>>>>>>>>>> mold a distribution into almost anything. there are various
>>>>>>>>>>>>> personifications of the system, all sorts of ways and
>>>>>>>>>>>>> changes
>>>>>>>>>>>>> and
>>>>>>>>>>>>> options
>>>>>>>>>>>>> for creativity.
>>>>>>>>>>>>> however adaptive tools are often extensions of physical
>>>>>>>>>>>>> characteristics,
>>>>>>>>>>>>> hands, eyes, ears, brains, combinations of these.
>>>>>>>>>>>>> To build solid assistive tools one must have a solid
>>>>>>>>>>>>> foundation as
>>>>>>>>>>>>> it
>>>>>>>>>>>>> were. that is part of why there have needed to be so few
>>>>>>>>>>>>> Apple
>>>>>>>>>>>>> efforts
>>>>>>>>>>>>> at
>>>>>>>>>>>>> inclusion, they created with, and then created in-house
>>>>>>>>>>>>> adaptive
>>>>>>>>>>>>> tools
>>>>>>>>>>>>> for various populations that were built into the system.
>>>>>>>>>>>>> Although Microsoft did not bother until much later, in
>>>>>>>>>>>>> theory
>>>>>>>>>>>>> at
>>>>>>>>>>>>> least,
>>>>>>>>>>>>> the
>>>>>>>>>>>>> consistency of windows is what makes it possible for
>>>>>>>>>>>>> freedom
>>>>>>>>>>>>> or the
>>>>>>>>>>>>> former
>>>>>>>>>>>>> gw micro or nvda to create something that can in theory
>>>>>>>>>>>>> work.
>>>>>>>>>>>>> Floor for the furniture is somewhat solid.
>>>>>>>>>>>>> Just my thoughts,
>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>> On Sat, 13 Aug 2022, K0LNY_Glenn wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> I would like to see Freedom Scientific make a Jaws For
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Linux.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> JFL
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> I'd certainly pay the yearly rental fee for it, and it
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> would bring
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> many
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> more
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> users into Linux.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> FS could, with its resources, possibly make it more
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> robust
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> than
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Orca.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Glenn
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> ----- Original Message -----
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> From: "Milan Zamazal" <pdm at zamazal.org>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> To: <speakup at linux-speakup.org>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Cc: <Blinux-list at redhat.com>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Sent: Saturday, August 13, 2022 12:08 PM
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Subject: Re: "Accessibility in Fedora Workstation" (fwd)
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> "KL" == Karen Lewellen
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> <klewellen at shellworld.net>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> writes:
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> KL> What bothers me most are his lack of actual
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> qualifications,
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> and
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> KL> absolute dismissal of what he has not experienced..as
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> if
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> KL> he
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> KL> defines Linux usage for everyone. That attitude is
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> KL> dangerous,
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> KL> because he is educating those outside of the
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> KL> accessibility
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> KL> experiences, who will believe his ignorance is
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> factual.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> KL> he
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> has
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> KL> to be expert, it is his job.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Hi Karen,
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> I know Lukas personally and I admire his skills and
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> qualifications.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> I
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> also know first hand that he is open to constructive
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> feedback and
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> I
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> believe he???Td be happy to be corrected about possible
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> technical
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> inaccuracies in the interview. It may be also a good
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> opportunity
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> to
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> find out what???Ts possibly missing in making anybody
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> better
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> informed.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> As for ???oabsolute dismissal of what he has not
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> experienced?????,
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> what
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> reasonable free software alternatives to a less or more
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> standard
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> desktop
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> with Orca and a software synthesizer can you see for a
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> common
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> blind
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> user
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> who needs to use a fully working web browser, to read and
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> process
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> text
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> documents, to be compatible with other computer users,
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> etc.?
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> And let???Ts be realistic. We celebrate every single
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> developer
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> hired
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> to
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> improve accessibility. This tells something about the
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> state of
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> the
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> matters. We cannot expect that a single person will fix
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> all the
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> kinds
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> of accessibility problems in all the environments. Lukas
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> works at
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> his
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> job focusing on certain areas currently seen there as
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> urgent ones
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> and I
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> appreciate this opportunity. Anybody else seeing a need
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> to
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> work
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> on
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> other areas is welcome to contribute to whatever sees
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> fit,
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> as I
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> do.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Regards,
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Milan
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>
>>>
>>
>>
>>
>
>
^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 78+ messages in thread
* "Accessibility in Fedora Workstation" (fwd)
[not found] ` <003a01d8b280$1a0da710$80ffa8c0@Win7VM>
@ ` blinux-list
[not found] ` <Pine.LNX.4.64.2208171742060.1360378@server2.shellworld.net>
1 sibling, 0 replies; 78+ messages in thread
From: blinux-list @ UTC (permalink / raw)
Glen,
why would I bother?
your own words as a seasoned employee speak for themselves.
Nebraska is an NFB philosophy state.
Were you here in Ontario, that could be a human rights violation, since
here the code establishes that claiming everyone sharing a label
accommodates the same is a violation of the individual's human rights.
No wonder the state of new York supported my professional move, if rehab
systems like yours are Nfb puppets.
The commission is not the individual rehab staffer, who states he makes
decisions using a NFB dictionary.
On Wed, 17 Aug 2022, K0LNY_Glenn wrote:
> Karen,
> Start out at the web site for
> Nebraska Commission for the Blind.
> There are links to communicate with all the board members, who are appointed
> by the governor.
> Glenn
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: "Karen Lewellen" <klewellen at shellworld.net>
> To: "K0LNY_Glenn" <glenn at ervin.email>
> Cc: "Butch Bussen" <butchb at shellworld.net>; "John G. Heim" <jheim at wisc.edu>;
> <speakup at linux-speakup.org>; "Milan Zamazal" <pdm at zamazal.org>;
> <Blinux-list at redhat.com>
> Sent: Wednesday, August 17, 2022 4:24 PM
> Subject: Re: "Accessibility in Fedora Workstation" (fwd)
>
>
> Do what?
> where I am it is actually a violation of vendor contract to tell someone
> they must use a certain tool.
> give them the chance in an office to try several things yes.
> Force jaws down their throat like rehab does no.
> I said I wished I knew someone in Nebraska media not that I did...although
> perhaps.
>
>
>
> On Wed, 17 Aug 2022, K0LNY_Glenn wrote:
>
>> Please do.
>>
>> ----- Original Message -----
>> From: "Karen Lewellen" <klewellen at shellworld.net>
>> To: "K0LNY_Glenn" <glenn at ervin.email>
>> Cc: "Butch Bussen" <butchb at shellworld.net>; "John G. Heim"
>> <jheim at wisc.edu>;
>> <speakup at linux-speakup.org>; "Milan Zamazal" <pdm at zamazal.org>;
>> <Blinux-list at redhat.com>
>> Sent: Wednesday, August 17, 2022 3:46 PM
>> Subject: Re: "Accessibility in Fedora Workstation" (fwd)
>>
>>
>> Glen,
>> you are missing the point.
>> A commission board, at least if constructed with integrity serves as a
>> watchdog for your organization's activities.
>> Making sure that you act, objectively, and above influence with government
>> funding.
>> That role differs from a public servant, like yourself.
>> In fact that the commission has members from both organizations is
>> exactly why you should not be a member.
>> if, as you said, the state has an Nfb philosophy, I wonder just how above
>> influence that commission actually is, lip service attendance does not
>> translate to the statement you freely made.
>> Honestly, i wish I knew someone with Nebraska public radio. there is a
>> investigative, data journalism piece right here, exploring how objective
>> your office is in fact.
>>
>>
>>
>> On Wed, 17 Aug 2022, K0LNY_Glenn wrote:
>>
>>> Karen,
>>> In Nebraska, the commission board attends both consumer groups' state
>>> conventions.
>>> So there is total transparency within the consumer groups.
>>> The agency sends clients to both conventions for educational purposes.
>>> Some can go to either national convention on the state.
>>> Glenn
>>> ----- Original Message -----
>>> From: "Karen Lewellen" <klewellen at shellworld.net>
>>> To: "K0LNY_Glenn" <glenn at ervin.email>
>>> Cc: "Butch Bussen" <butchb at shellworld.net>; "John G. Heim"
>>> <jheim at wisc.edu>;
>>> <speakup at linux-speakup.org>; "Milan Zamazal" <pdm at zamazal.org>;
>>> <Blinux-list at redhat.com>
>>> Sent: Wednesday, August 17, 2022 2:06 PM
>>> Subject: Re: "Accessibility in Fedora Workstation" (fwd)
>>>
>>>
>>> wrong.
>>> Your first duty is to those clients You serve. as illustrated here the
>>> Nfb
>>> used their ability to reach insiders to influence policy to the detriment
>>> of the broader community...same can clearly be said for freedom
>>> scientific.
>>> That you stated clearly that your rehab system runs on an nfb philosophy
>>> illustrates my point perfectly.
>>> There are countless legal terms for such conflicts of interest, I dare
>>> say if you were serving any other clientele your government watchdog
>>> would
>>> put a stop to the practice.
>>> allows the organization to have undue almost antitrust influence on
>>> people's lives.
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> On Wed, 17 Aug 2022, K0LNY_Glenn wrote:
>>>
>>>> I don't think so, we are people first, and being a government employee
>>>> should not preclude personal rights.
>>>> Besides, I attended the conventions for CEU credits, but I never joined
>>>> with
>>>> dues.
>>>> Glenn
>>>> ----- Original Message -----
>>>> From: "Karen Lewellen" <klewellen at shellworld.net>
>>>> To: "K0LNY_Glenn" <glenn at ervin.email>
>>>> Cc: "Butch Bussen" <butchb at shellworld.net>; "John G. Heim"
>>>> <jheim at wisc.edu>;
>>>> <speakup at linux-speakup.org>; "Milan Zamazal" <pdm at zamazal.org>;
>>>> <Blinux-list at redhat.com>
>>>> Sent: Wednesday, August 17, 2022 11:36 AM
>>>> Subject: Re: "Accessibility in Fedora Workstation" (fwd)
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> speaking personally?
>>>> No government employee should be a member of the NfB. ethical conflict
>>>> of interest personified.
>>>>
>>>> Karen
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> On Wed, 17 Aug 2022, K0LNY_Glenn wrote:
>>>>
>>>>> Yeah, I had been to a state NFBN convention that year and did the PAC
>>>>> thing.
>>>>> Then when the NFB did that, I called up the state treasurer for the
>>>>> NFBN
>>>>> and
>>>>> cancelled my PAC plan.
>>>>> I told them that they don't care if I can read my money, then they
>>>>> don't
>>>>> need any from me.
>>>>> Glenn
>>>>> ----- Original Message -----
>>>>> From: "Karen Lewellen" <klewellen at shellworld.net>
>>>>> To: "Butch Bussen" <butchb at shellworld.net>
>>>>> Cc: "John G. Heim" <jheim at wisc.edu>; "K0LNY_Glenn" <glenn at ervin.email>;
>>>>> <speakup at linux-speakup.org>; "Milan Zamazal" <pdm at zamazal.org>;
>>>>> <Blinux-list at redhat.com>
>>>>> Sent: Wednesday, August 17, 2022 11:18 AM
>>>>> Subject: Re: "Accessibility in Fedora Workstation" (fwd)
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> My personal favorite is the rejection of money that could be identified
>>>>> by touch. never mind that for honestly thousands of years the practice
>>>>> has
>>>>> been common so those with limited education could still engage in
>>>>> commerce.
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> On Wed, 17 Aug 2022, Butch Bussen wrote:
>>>>>
>>>>>> Yes, I remember that. And what about their oposition to descriptive
>>>>>> video,
>>>>>> even filed a law sute to get the law thrown out, which it was at that
>>>>>> time.
>>>>>> 73
>>>>>> Butch
>>>>>> WA0VJR
>>>>>> Node 3148
>>>>>> Wallace, ks.
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>> On Tue, 16 Aug 2022, John G. Heim wrote:
>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Holy cow! Are you aware that the NFB once asked Microsoft to *NOT*
>>>>>>> improve
>>>>>>> Narrator to the point where it would compete with Jaws? If you think
>>>>>>> the
>>>>>>> NFB is incapable of forcing choices on people, you are very sadly
>>>>>>> mistaken.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> On 8/16/22 09:36, K0LNY_Glenn wrote:
>>>>>>>> This sort of thing would never happen in Nebraska, or any state
>>>>>>>> where
>>>>>>>> the
>>>>>>>> agency staff is of the NFB philosophy.
>>>>>>>> Say what you want about the NFB, no organization is without its
>>>>>>>> problems,
>>>>>>>> but it is the core philosophy that formed the NFB that knows that
>>>>>>>> society
>>>>>>>> has low expectations of the Blind, and this is why the NFB
>>>>>>>> believes
>>>>>>>> in
>>>>>>>> skills and high expectations.
>>>>>>>> And with that, comes giving respect to the Blind, like the respect
>>>>>>>> of
>>>>>>>> choice.
>>>>>>>> Yeah I know about the information of recent about NFB abuse, but
>>>>>>>> this
>>>>>>>> is
>>>>>>>> organizational issues, unrelated to the philosophy. In fact, the
>>>>>>>> fact
>>>>>>>> that
>>>>>>>> it has come up demonstrates that the NFB is no different than any
>>>>>>>> other
>>>>>>>> organization in interpersonal staff issues.
>>>>>>>> And choice does not mean training center choices.
>>>>>>>> Choice isn't always an option, just like if you took a vocational
>>>>>>>> course
>>>>>>>> in
>>>>>>>> college, there are things you have to take, so to me, the lack of
>>>>>>>> choice
>>>>>>>> in
>>>>>>>> this regard is different than computer software, where all the
>>>>>>>> choices
>>>>>>>> will
>>>>>>>> reach the same end result.
>>>>>>>> In states where the NFB philosophy is embraced, if a client said I
>>>>>>>> want
>>>>>>>> to
>>>>>>>> use a Mac, or I want Window Eyes, then that is what they would
>>>>>>>> get,
>>>>>>>> no
>>>>>>>> questions asked.
>>>>>>>> They would not have to fight to get it.
>>>>>>>> I simply cannot imagine a counselor saying that someone has to use
>>>>>>>> the
>>>>>>>> software that the counselor wants them to have.
>>>>>>>> When I hear that stuff, I almost cannot believe it, but I know
>>>>>>>> Butch
>>>>>>>> well
>>>>>>>> enough to know he wouldn't make that up.
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> Glenn
>>>>>>>> ----- Original Message -----
>>>>>>>> From: "Butch Bussen" <butchb at shellworld.net>
>>>>>>>> To: "Karen Lewellen" <klewellen at shellworld.net>
>>>>>>>> Cc: "K0LNY_Glenn" <glenn at ervin.email>;
>>>>>>>> <speakup at linux-speakup.org>;
>>>>>>>> "Milan
>>>>>>>> Zamazal" <pdm at zamazal.org>; <Blinux-list at redhat.com>
>>>>>>>> Sent: Tuesday, August 16, 2022 8:18 AM
>>>>>>>> Subject: Re: "Accessibility in Fedora Workstation" (fwd)
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> You are right. In Nevada, freedom pushed jaws to the rehab people
>>>>>>>> and
>>>>>>>> took them out for steak diners and so forth. I fought like hell
>>>>>>>> to
>>>>>>>> get
>>>>>>>> them to buy window-eyes.
>>>>>>>> 73
>>>>>>>> Butch
>>>>>>>> WA0VJR
>>>>>>>> Node 3148
>>>>>>>> Wallace, ks.
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> On Sun, 14 Aug 2022, Karen Lewellen wrote:
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> And where do these employers learn about jaws?
>>>>>>>>> In fact, provide if you do not mind an example of how this works
>>>>>>>>> exactly.
>>>>>>>>> after all, unless I am incorrect, these employers are not
>>>>>>>>> personal
>>>>>>>>> Jaws
>>>>>>>>> users, meaning someone they trust continues to sell them on an
>>>>>>>>> expensive
>>>>>>>>> program instead of a largely free one.
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> On Sat, 13 Aug 2022, K0LNY_Glenn wrote:
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> Karen,
>>>>>>>>>> Most employers don't want NVDA, and will only allow Jaws.
>>>>>>>>>> In Nebraska, if an employer said put on whatever works, the
>>>>>>>>>> counselors
>>>>>>>>>> will
>>>>>>>>>> use NVDA, because of the cost of Jaws.
>>>>>>>>>> If some of the clients in a call center already use Jaws, but
>>>>>>>>>> don't know
>>>>>>>>>> NVDA, the counselor will use Jaws, because the other clients
>>>>>>>>>> will
>>>>>>>>>> need
>>>>>>>>>> to
>>>>>>>>>> learn one of the two.
>>>>>>>>>> So it's all choice, but in the workplace, it depends on what
>>>>>>>>>> the
>>>>>>>>>> employer
>>>>>>>>>> will allow.
>>>>>>>>>> Also, sometimes scripts need to be made, and there are more
>>>>>>>>>> Jaws
>>>>>>>>>> scripters
>>>>>>>>>> available than there are NVDA add-on writers.
>>>>>>>>>> So this perception that Jaws is forced by rehab, from my 31
>>>>>>>>>> years
>>>>>>>>>> in the
>>>>>>>>>> business I can say is rubbish.
>>>>>>>>>> Now, if a counselor did not know how to use NVDA, and either
>>>>>>>>>> may
>>>>>>>>>> be
>>>>>>>>>> chosen,
>>>>>>>>>> the rehab counselor is able to select the one that the
>>>>>>>>>> counselor
>>>>>>>>>> feels
>>>>>>>>>> is
>>>>>>>>>> best for the student and for the counselor's teaching.
>>>>>>>>>> When it comes to part B moneys, which is used for
>>>>>>>>>> non-vocational
>>>>>>>>>> purchases,
>>>>>>>>>> where a lot of Jaws purchases come from, it is in the agency's
>>>>>>>>>> best
>>>>>>>>>> interest
>>>>>>>>>> to spend as little as possible, because that doesn't come back
>>>>>>>>>> like VR
>>>>>>>>>> expenditures do.
>>>>>>>>>> Glenn
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> ----- Original Message -----
>>>>>>>>>> From: "Karen Lewellen" <klewellen at shellworld.net>
>>>>>>>>>> To: "K0LNY_Glenn" <glenn at ervin.email>
>>>>>>>>>> Cc: <speakup at linux-speakup.org>; "Milan Zamazal"
>>>>>>>>>> <pdm at zamazal.org>;
>>>>>>>>>> <Blinux-list at redhat.com>
>>>>>>>>>> Sent: Saturday, August 13, 2022 6:15 PM
>>>>>>>>>> Subject: Re: "Accessibility in Fedora Workstation" (fwd)
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> The challenge with that example is that, as one often gets
>>>>>>>>>> reminded,
>>>>>>>>>> the
>>>>>>>>>> rehab systems track record for facilitating employment for
>>>>>>>>>> their
>>>>>>>>>> clients
>>>>>>>>>> is quite poor.
>>>>>>>>>> With a high percentage of unemployment among our clients.
>>>>>>>>>> Making,
>>>>>>>>>> speaking personally, your buying Jaws for personal use not
>>>>>>>>>> really
>>>>>>>>>> reflecting how the system would respond to an alternative
>>>>>>>>>> request.
>>>>>>>>>> Now if someone from organized rehab said, okay freedom
>>>>>>>>>> scientific, we
>>>>>>>>>> are
>>>>>>>>>> creating an employment program where our clients will train in
>>>>>>>>>> Linux,
>>>>>>>>>> needing a solid screen reader solution for the system. We
>>>>>>>>>> will
>>>>>>>>>> give you
>>>>>>>>>> an
>>>>>>>>>> exclusive development contract for s millions to create the
>>>>>>>>>> tool.
>>>>>>>>>> Fs would likely say where do we sign?
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> On Sat, 13 Aug 2022, K0LNY_Glenn wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>> True enough, but largely, rehab people typically use Windows
>>>>>>>>>>> at
>>>>>>>>>>> work,
>>>>>>>>>>> and
>>>>>>>>>>> probably at home, but they need to cater to the needs of the
>>>>>>>>>>> client.
>>>>>>>>>>> If a client used Linux, I doubt that any rehab counselor
>>>>>>>>>>> would
>>>>>>>>>>> advocate
>>>>>>>>>>> that
>>>>>>>>>>> the client switch to Windows, unless that was needed for a
>>>>>>>>>>> specific
>>>>>>>>>>> job.
>>>>>>>>>>> In Nebraska, we purchased Jaws much more for personal use
>>>>>>>>>>> than
>>>>>>>>>>> we did
>>>>>>>>>>> for
>>>>>>>>>>> work related situations.
>>>>>>>>>>> So if FS made a JFL, and people were using Linux, rehab would
>>>>>>>>>>> indeed
>>>>>>>>>>> purchase a JFL product.
>>>>>>>>>>> Glenn
>>>>>>>>>>> ----- Original Message -----
>>>>>>>>>>> From: "Karen Lewellen" <klewellen at shellworld.net>
>>>>>>>>>>> To: "K0LNY_Glenn" <glenn at ervin.email>
>>>>>>>>>>> Cc: <speakup at linux-speakup.org>; "Milan Zamazal"
>>>>>>>>>>> <pdm at zamazal.org>;
>>>>>>>>>>> <Blinux-list at redhat.com>
>>>>>>>>>>> Sent: Saturday, August 13, 2022 3:01 PM
>>>>>>>>>>> Subject: Re: "Accessibility in Fedora Workstation" (fwd)
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>> there was an interesting discussion a month or so back on the
>>>>>>>>>>> blinux
>>>>>>>>>>> list
>>>>>>>>>>> about how long it took completing tasks in the gui as apposed
>>>>>>>>>>> to say
>>>>>>>>>>> command line, the comments were quite informative.
>>>>>>>>>>> Still, fs has never marketed largely to the end user. Instead
>>>>>>>>>>> they
>>>>>>>>>>> market
>>>>>>>>>>> to the American rehab community.
>>>>>>>>>>> how much market research has the rehab community done to
>>>>>>>>>>> support the
>>>>>>>>>>> need
>>>>>>>>>>> for choices?
>>>>>>>>>>> How many rehab counselors support training in Linux?
>>>>>>>>>>> one comment made by the subject of this thread about poor
>>>>>>>>>>> quality
>>>>>>>>>>> speech
>>>>>>>>>>> is a fine one...out of the box Linux has few speech choices.
>>>>>>>>>>> everyone
>>>>>>>>>>> brings their needs to the table there.
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>> if you want to get fs to care about Linux, you need to prove
>>>>>>>>>>> there is
>>>>>>>>>>> money for them there, from their main source of income.
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>> On Sat, 13 Aug 2022, K0LNY_Glenn wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>> Well since Orca seems to work on so many distros, I don't
>>>>>>>>>>>> know why
>>>>>>>>>>>> FS
>>>>>>>>>>>> would
>>>>>>>>>>>> not be able to do the same.
>>>>>>>>>>>> If Jaws users could switch into Linux, it would be a real
>>>>>>>>>>>> game
>>>>>>>>>>>> changer,
>>>>>>>>>>>> and
>>>>>>>>>>>> I think with lots more Blind Linux users, we would start
>>>>>>>>>>>> seeing
>>>>>>>>>>>> accessibility in Linux not being a second thought.
>>>>>>>>>>>> Glenn
>>>>>>>>>>>> ----- Original Message -----
>>>>>>>>>>>> From: "Karen Lewellen" <klewellen at shellworld.net>
>>>>>>>>>>>> To: "K0LNY_Glenn" <glenn at ervin.email>
>>>>>>>>>>>> Cc: <speakup at linux-speakup.org>; "Milan Zamazal"
>>>>>>>>>>>> <pdm at zamazal.org>;
>>>>>>>>>>>> <Blinux-list at redhat.com>
>>>>>>>>>>>> Sent: Saturday, August 13, 2022 1:47 PM
>>>>>>>>>>>> Subject: Re: "Accessibility in Fedora Workstation" (fwd)
>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>> Well technically freedom scientific does not exist any
>>>>>>>>>>>> longer, being
>>>>>>>>>>>> bought
>>>>>>>>>>>> by another company.
>>>>>>>>>>>> Still, I can respect why they, or nvda have not created
>>>>>>>>>>>> their
>>>>>>>>>>>> tools
>>>>>>>>>>>> for
>>>>>>>>>>>> Linux.
>>>>>>>>>>>> That is because as I understand it, Linux is quite like
>>>>>>>>>>>> clay. You
>>>>>>>>>>>> can
>>>>>>>>>>>> mold a distribution into almost anything. there are various
>>>>>>>>>>>> personifications of the system, all sorts of ways and
>>>>>>>>>>>> changes
>>>>>>>>>>>> and
>>>>>>>>>>>> options
>>>>>>>>>>>> for creativity.
>>>>>>>>>>>> however adaptive tools are often extensions of physical
>>>>>>>>>>>> characteristics,
>>>>>>>>>>>> hands, eyes, ears, brains, combinations of these.
>>>>>>>>>>>> To build solid assistive tools one must have a solid
>>>>>>>>>>>> foundation as
>>>>>>>>>>>> it
>>>>>>>>>>>> were. that is part of why there have needed to be so few
>>>>>>>>>>>> Apple
>>>>>>>>>>>> efforts
>>>>>>>>>>>> at
>>>>>>>>>>>> inclusion, they created with, and then created in-house
>>>>>>>>>>>> adaptive
>>>>>>>>>>>> tools
>>>>>>>>>>>> for various populations that were built into the system.
>>>>>>>>>>>> Although Microsoft did not bother until much later, in
>>>>>>>>>>>> theory
>>>>>>>>>>>> at
>>>>>>>>>>>> least,
>>>>>>>>>>>> the
>>>>>>>>>>>> consistency of windows is what makes it possible for
>>>>>>>>>>>> freedom
>>>>>>>>>>>> or the
>>>>>>>>>>>> former
>>>>>>>>>>>> gw micro or nvda to create something that can in theory
>>>>>>>>>>>> work.
>>>>>>>>>>>> Floor for the furniture is somewhat solid.
>>>>>>>>>>>> Just my thoughts,
>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>> On Sat, 13 Aug 2022, K0LNY_Glenn wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>> I would like to see Freedom Scientific make a Jaws For
>>>>>>>>>>>>> Linux.
>>>>>>>>>>>>> JFL
>>>>>>>>>>>>> I'd certainly pay the yearly rental fee for it, and it
>>>>>>>>>>>>> would bring
>>>>>>>>>>>>> many
>>>>>>>>>>>>> more
>>>>>>>>>>>>> users into Linux.
>>>>>>>>>>>>> FS could, with its resources, possibly make it more
>>>>>>>>>>>>> robust
>>>>>>>>>>>>> than
>>>>>>>>>>>>> Orca.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>> Glenn
>>>>>>>>>>>>> ----- Original Message -----
>>>>>>>>>>>>> From: "Milan Zamazal" <pdm at zamazal.org>
>>>>>>>>>>>>> To: <speakup at linux-speakup.org>
>>>>>>>>>>>>> Cc: <Blinux-list at redhat.com>
>>>>>>>>>>>>> Sent: Saturday, August 13, 2022 12:08 PM
>>>>>>>>>>>>> Subject: Re: "Accessibility in Fedora Workstation" (fwd)
>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> "KL" == Karen Lewellen
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> <klewellen at shellworld.net>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> writes:
>>>>>>>>>>>>> KL> What bothers me most are his lack of actual
>>>>>>>>>>>>> qualifications,
>>>>>>>>>>>>> and
>>>>>>>>>>>>> KL> absolute dismissal of what he has not experienced..as
>>>>>>>>>>>>> if
>>>>>>>>>>>>> KL> he
>>>>>>>>>>>>> KL> defines Linux usage for everyone. That attitude is
>>>>>>>>>>>>> KL> dangerous,
>>>>>>>>>>>>> KL> because he is educating those outside of the
>>>>>>>>>>>>> KL> accessibility
>>>>>>>>>>>>> KL> experiences, who will believe his ignorance is
>>>>>>>>>>>>> factual.
>>>>>>>>>>>>> KL> he
>>>>>>>>>>>>> has
>>>>>>>>>>>>> KL> to be expert, it is his job.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>> Hi Karen,
>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>> I know Lukas personally and I admire his skills and
>>>>>>>>>>>>> qualifications.
>>>>>>>>>>>>> I
>>>>>>>>>>>>> also know first hand that he is open to constructive
>>>>>>>>>>>>> feedback and
>>>>>>>>>>>>> I
>>>>>>>>>>>>> believe he???Td be happy to be corrected about possible
>>>>>>>>>>>>> technical
>>>>>>>>>>>>> inaccuracies in the interview. It may be also a good
>>>>>>>>>>>>> opportunity
>>>>>>>>>>>>> to
>>>>>>>>>>>>> find out what???Ts possibly missing in making anybody
>>>>>>>>>>>>> better
>>>>>>>>>>>>> informed.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>> As for ???oabsolute dismissal of what he has not
>>>>>>>>>>>>> experienced?????,
>>>>>>>>>>>>> what
>>>>>>>>>>>>> reasonable free software alternatives to a less or more
>>>>>>>>>>>>> standard
>>>>>>>>>>>>> desktop
>>>>>>>>>>>>> with Orca and a software synthesizer can you see for a
>>>>>>>>>>>>> common
>>>>>>>>>>>>> blind
>>>>>>>>>>>>> user
>>>>>>>>>>>>> who needs to use a fully working web browser, to read and
>>>>>>>>>>>>> process
>>>>>>>>>>>>> text
>>>>>>>>>>>>> documents, to be compatible with other computer users,
>>>>>>>>>>>>> etc.?
>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>> And let???Ts be realistic. We celebrate every single
>>>>>>>>>>>>> developer
>>>>>>>>>>>>> hired
>>>>>>>>>>>>> to
>>>>>>>>>>>>> improve accessibility. This tells something about the
>>>>>>>>>>>>> state of
>>>>>>>>>>>>> the
>>>>>>>>>>>>> matters. We cannot expect that a single person will fix
>>>>>>>>>>>>> all the
>>>>>>>>>>>>> kinds
>>>>>>>>>>>>> of accessibility problems in all the environments. Lukas
>>>>>>>>>>>>> works at
>>>>>>>>>>>>> his
>>>>>>>>>>>>> job focusing on certain areas currently seen there as
>>>>>>>>>>>>> urgent ones
>>>>>>>>>>>>> and I
>>>>>>>>>>>>> appreciate this opportunity. Anybody else seeing a need
>>>>>>>>>>>>> to
>>>>>>>>>>>>> work
>>>>>>>>>>>>> on
>>>>>>>>>>>>> other areas is welcome to contribute to whatever sees
>>>>>>>>>>>>> fit,
>>>>>>>>>>>>> as I
>>>>>>>>>>>>> do.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>> Regards,
>>>>>>>>>>>>> Milan
>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>
>>>
>>
>>
>
>
>
^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 78+ messages in thread
* "Accessibility in Fedora Workstation" (fwd)
[not found] ` <002f01d8b27f$0b75a640$80ffa8c0@Win7VM>
@ ` blinux-list
[not found] ` <Pine.LNX.4.64.2208171721080.1359800@server2.sh ellworld.net >
1 sibling, 0 replies; 78+ messages in thread
From: blinux-list @ UTC (permalink / raw)
Do what?
where I am it is actually a violation of vendor contract to tell someone
they must use a certain tool.
give them the chance in an office to try several things yes.
Force jaws down their throat like rehab does no.
I said I wished I knew someone in Nebraska media not that I did...although
perhaps.
On Wed, 17 Aug 2022, K0LNY_Glenn wrote:
> Please do.
>
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: "Karen Lewellen" <klewellen at shellworld.net>
> To: "K0LNY_Glenn" <glenn at ervin.email>
> Cc: "Butch Bussen" <butchb at shellworld.net>; "John G. Heim" <jheim at wisc.edu>;
> <speakup at linux-speakup.org>; "Milan Zamazal" <pdm at zamazal.org>;
> <Blinux-list at redhat.com>
> Sent: Wednesday, August 17, 2022 3:46 PM
> Subject: Re: "Accessibility in Fedora Workstation" (fwd)
>
>
> Glen,
> you are missing the point.
> A commission board, at least if constructed with integrity serves as a
> watchdog for your organization's activities.
> Making sure that you act, objectively, and above influence with government
> funding.
> That role differs from a public servant, like yourself.
> In fact that the commission has members from both organizations is
> exactly why you should not be a member.
> if, as you said, the state has an Nfb philosophy, I wonder just how above
> influence that commission actually is, lip service attendance does not
> translate to the statement you freely made.
> Honestly, i wish I knew someone with Nebraska public radio. there is a
> investigative, data journalism piece right here, exploring how objective
> your office is in fact.
>
>
>
> On Wed, 17 Aug 2022, K0LNY_Glenn wrote:
>
>> Karen,
>> In Nebraska, the commission board attends both consumer groups' state
>> conventions.
>> So there is total transparency within the consumer groups.
>> The agency sends clients to both conventions for educational purposes.
>> Some can go to either national convention on the state.
>> Glenn
>> ----- Original Message -----
>> From: "Karen Lewellen" <klewellen at shellworld.net>
>> To: "K0LNY_Glenn" <glenn at ervin.email>
>> Cc: "Butch Bussen" <butchb at shellworld.net>; "John G. Heim"
>> <jheim at wisc.edu>;
>> <speakup at linux-speakup.org>; "Milan Zamazal" <pdm at zamazal.org>;
>> <Blinux-list at redhat.com>
>> Sent: Wednesday, August 17, 2022 2:06 PM
>> Subject: Re: "Accessibility in Fedora Workstation" (fwd)
>>
>>
>> wrong.
>> Your first duty is to those clients You serve. as illustrated here the
>> Nfb
>> used their ability to reach insiders to influence policy to the detriment
>> of the broader community...same can clearly be said for freedom
>> scientific.
>> That you stated clearly that your rehab system runs on an nfb philosophy
>> illustrates my point perfectly.
>> There are countless legal terms for such conflicts of interest, I dare
>> say if you were serving any other clientele your government watchdog would
>> put a stop to the practice.
>> allows the organization to have undue almost antitrust influence on
>> people's lives.
>>
>>
>>
>> On Wed, 17 Aug 2022, K0LNY_Glenn wrote:
>>
>>> I don't think so, we are people first, and being a government employee
>>> should not preclude personal rights.
>>> Besides, I attended the conventions for CEU credits, but I never joined
>>> with
>>> dues.
>>> Glenn
>>> ----- Original Message -----
>>> From: "Karen Lewellen" <klewellen at shellworld.net>
>>> To: "K0LNY_Glenn" <glenn at ervin.email>
>>> Cc: "Butch Bussen" <butchb at shellworld.net>; "John G. Heim"
>>> <jheim at wisc.edu>;
>>> <speakup at linux-speakup.org>; "Milan Zamazal" <pdm at zamazal.org>;
>>> <Blinux-list at redhat.com>
>>> Sent: Wednesday, August 17, 2022 11:36 AM
>>> Subject: Re: "Accessibility in Fedora Workstation" (fwd)
>>>
>>>
>>> speaking personally?
>>> No government employee should be a member of the NfB. ethical conflict
>>> of interest personified.
>>>
>>> Karen
>>>
>>>
>>> On Wed, 17 Aug 2022, K0LNY_Glenn wrote:
>>>
>>>> Yeah, I had been to a state NFBN convention that year and did the PAC
>>>> thing.
>>>> Then when the NFB did that, I called up the state treasurer for the NFBN
>>>> and
>>>> cancelled my PAC plan.
>>>> I told them that they don't care if I can read my money, then they don't
>>>> need any from me.
>>>> Glenn
>>>> ----- Original Message -----
>>>> From: "Karen Lewellen" <klewellen at shellworld.net>
>>>> To: "Butch Bussen" <butchb at shellworld.net>
>>>> Cc: "John G. Heim" <jheim at wisc.edu>; "K0LNY_Glenn" <glenn at ervin.email>;
>>>> <speakup at linux-speakup.org>; "Milan Zamazal" <pdm at zamazal.org>;
>>>> <Blinux-list at redhat.com>
>>>> Sent: Wednesday, August 17, 2022 11:18 AM
>>>> Subject: Re: "Accessibility in Fedora Workstation" (fwd)
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> My personal favorite is the rejection of money that could be identified
>>>> by touch. never mind that for honestly thousands of years the practice
>>>> has
>>>> been common so those with limited education could still engage in
>>>> commerce.
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> On Wed, 17 Aug 2022, Butch Bussen wrote:
>>>>
>>>>> Yes, I remember that. And what about their oposition to descriptive
>>>>> video,
>>>>> even filed a law sute to get the law thrown out, which it was at that
>>>>> time.
>>>>> 73
>>>>> Butch
>>>>> WA0VJR
>>>>> Node 3148
>>>>> Wallace, ks.
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> On Tue, 16 Aug 2022, John G. Heim wrote:
>>>>>
>>>>>> Holy cow! Are you aware that the NFB once asked Microsoft to *NOT*
>>>>>> improve
>>>>>> Narrator to the point where it would compete with Jaws? If you think
>>>>>> the
>>>>>> NFB is incapable of forcing choices on people, you are very sadly
>>>>>> mistaken.
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>> On 8/16/22 09:36, K0LNY_Glenn wrote:
>>>>>>> This sort of thing would never happen in Nebraska, or any state
>>>>>>> where
>>>>>>> the
>>>>>>> agency staff is of the NFB philosophy.
>>>>>>> Say what you want about the NFB, no organization is without its
>>>>>>> problems,
>>>>>>> but it is the core philosophy that formed the NFB that knows that
>>>>>>> society
>>>>>>> has low expectations of the Blind, and this is why the NFB believes
>>>>>>> in
>>>>>>> skills and high expectations.
>>>>>>> And with that, comes giving respect to the Blind, like the respect
>>>>>>> of
>>>>>>> choice.
>>>>>>> Yeah I know about the information of recent about NFB abuse, but
>>>>>>> this
>>>>>>> is
>>>>>>> organizational issues, unrelated to the philosophy. In fact, the
>>>>>>> fact
>>>>>>> that
>>>>>>> it has come up demonstrates that the NFB is no different than any
>>>>>>> other
>>>>>>> organization in interpersonal staff issues.
>>>>>>> And choice does not mean training center choices.
>>>>>>> Choice isn't always an option, just like if you took a vocational
>>>>>>> course
>>>>>>> in
>>>>>>> college, there are things you have to take, so to me, the lack of
>>>>>>> choice
>>>>>>> in
>>>>>>> this regard is different than computer software, where all the
>>>>>>> choices
>>>>>>> will
>>>>>>> reach the same end result.
>>>>>>> In states where the NFB philosophy is embraced, if a client said I
>>>>>>> want
>>>>>>> to
>>>>>>> use a Mac, or I want Window Eyes, then that is what they would get,
>>>>>>> no
>>>>>>> questions asked.
>>>>>>> They would not have to fight to get it.
>>>>>>> I simply cannot imagine a counselor saying that someone has to use
>>>>>>> the
>>>>>>> software that the counselor wants them to have.
>>>>>>> When I hear that stuff, I almost cannot believe it, but I know
>>>>>>> Butch
>>>>>>> well
>>>>>>> enough to know he wouldn't make that up.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Glenn
>>>>>>> ----- Original Message -----
>>>>>>> From: "Butch Bussen" <butchb at shellworld.net>
>>>>>>> To: "Karen Lewellen" <klewellen at shellworld.net>
>>>>>>> Cc: "K0LNY_Glenn" <glenn at ervin.email>; <speakup at linux-speakup.org>;
>>>>>>> "Milan
>>>>>>> Zamazal" <pdm at zamazal.org>; <Blinux-list at redhat.com>
>>>>>>> Sent: Tuesday, August 16, 2022 8:18 AM
>>>>>>> Subject: Re: "Accessibility in Fedora Workstation" (fwd)
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> You are right. In Nevada, freedom pushed jaws to the rehab people
>>>>>>> and
>>>>>>> took them out for steak diners and so forth. I fought like hell to
>>>>>>> get
>>>>>>> them to buy window-eyes.
>>>>>>> 73
>>>>>>> Butch
>>>>>>> WA0VJR
>>>>>>> Node 3148
>>>>>>> Wallace, ks.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> On Sun, 14 Aug 2022, Karen Lewellen wrote:
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> And where do these employers learn about jaws?
>>>>>>>> In fact, provide if you do not mind an example of how this works
>>>>>>>> exactly.
>>>>>>>> after all, unless I am incorrect, these employers are not personal
>>>>>>>> Jaws
>>>>>>>> users, meaning someone they trust continues to sell them on an
>>>>>>>> expensive
>>>>>>>> program instead of a largely free one.
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> On Sat, 13 Aug 2022, K0LNY_Glenn wrote:
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> Karen,
>>>>>>>>> Most employers don't want NVDA, and will only allow Jaws.
>>>>>>>>> In Nebraska, if an employer said put on whatever works, the
>>>>>>>>> counselors
>>>>>>>>> will
>>>>>>>>> use NVDA, because of the cost of Jaws.
>>>>>>>>> If some of the clients in a call center already use Jaws, but
>>>>>>>>> don't know
>>>>>>>>> NVDA, the counselor will use Jaws, because the other clients
>>>>>>>>> will
>>>>>>>>> need
>>>>>>>>> to
>>>>>>>>> learn one of the two.
>>>>>>>>> So it's all choice, but in the workplace, it depends on what
>>>>>>>>> the
>>>>>>>>> employer
>>>>>>>>> will allow.
>>>>>>>>> Also, sometimes scripts need to be made, and there are more
>>>>>>>>> Jaws
>>>>>>>>> scripters
>>>>>>>>> available than there are NVDA add-on writers.
>>>>>>>>> So this perception that Jaws is forced by rehab, from my 31
>>>>>>>>> years
>>>>>>>>> in the
>>>>>>>>> business I can say is rubbish.
>>>>>>>>> Now, if a counselor did not know how to use NVDA, and either
>>>>>>>>> may
>>>>>>>>> be
>>>>>>>>> chosen,
>>>>>>>>> the rehab counselor is able to select the one that the
>>>>>>>>> counselor
>>>>>>>>> feels
>>>>>>>>> is
>>>>>>>>> best for the student and for the counselor's teaching.
>>>>>>>>> When it comes to part B moneys, which is used for
>>>>>>>>> non-vocational
>>>>>>>>> purchases,
>>>>>>>>> where a lot of Jaws purchases come from, it is in the agency's
>>>>>>>>> best
>>>>>>>>> interest
>>>>>>>>> to spend as little as possible, because that doesn't come back
>>>>>>>>> like VR
>>>>>>>>> expenditures do.
>>>>>>>>> Glenn
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> ----- Original Message -----
>>>>>>>>> From: "Karen Lewellen" <klewellen at shellworld.net>
>>>>>>>>> To: "K0LNY_Glenn" <glenn at ervin.email>
>>>>>>>>> Cc: <speakup at linux-speakup.org>; "Milan Zamazal"
>>>>>>>>> <pdm at zamazal.org>;
>>>>>>>>> <Blinux-list at redhat.com>
>>>>>>>>> Sent: Saturday, August 13, 2022 6:15 PM
>>>>>>>>> Subject: Re: "Accessibility in Fedora Workstation" (fwd)
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> The challenge with that example is that, as one often gets
>>>>>>>>> reminded,
>>>>>>>>> the
>>>>>>>>> rehab systems track record for facilitating employment for
>>>>>>>>> their
>>>>>>>>> clients
>>>>>>>>> is quite poor.
>>>>>>>>> With a high percentage of unemployment among our clients.
>>>>>>>>> Making,
>>>>>>>>> speaking personally, your buying Jaws for personal use not
>>>>>>>>> really
>>>>>>>>> reflecting how the system would respond to an alternative
>>>>>>>>> request.
>>>>>>>>> Now if someone from organized rehab said, okay freedom
>>>>>>>>> scientific, we
>>>>>>>>> are
>>>>>>>>> creating an employment program where our clients will train in
>>>>>>>>> Linux,
>>>>>>>>> needing a solid screen reader solution for the system. We will
>>>>>>>>> give you
>>>>>>>>> an
>>>>>>>>> exclusive development contract for s millions to create the
>>>>>>>>> tool.
>>>>>>>>> Fs would likely say where do we sign?
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> On Sat, 13 Aug 2022, K0LNY_Glenn wrote:
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> True enough, but largely, rehab people typically use Windows
>>>>>>>>>> at
>>>>>>>>>> work,
>>>>>>>>>> and
>>>>>>>>>> probably at home, but they need to cater to the needs of the
>>>>>>>>>> client.
>>>>>>>>>> If a client used Linux, I doubt that any rehab counselor
>>>>>>>>>> would
>>>>>>>>>> advocate
>>>>>>>>>> that
>>>>>>>>>> the client switch to Windows, unless that was needed for a
>>>>>>>>>> specific
>>>>>>>>>> job.
>>>>>>>>>> In Nebraska, we purchased Jaws much more for personal use
>>>>>>>>>> than
>>>>>>>>>> we did
>>>>>>>>>> for
>>>>>>>>>> work related situations.
>>>>>>>>>> So if FS made a JFL, and people were using Linux, rehab would
>>>>>>>>>> indeed
>>>>>>>>>> purchase a JFL product.
>>>>>>>>>> Glenn
>>>>>>>>>> ----- Original Message -----
>>>>>>>>>> From: "Karen Lewellen" <klewellen at shellworld.net>
>>>>>>>>>> To: "K0LNY_Glenn" <glenn at ervin.email>
>>>>>>>>>> Cc: <speakup at linux-speakup.org>; "Milan Zamazal"
>>>>>>>>>> <pdm at zamazal.org>;
>>>>>>>>>> <Blinux-list at redhat.com>
>>>>>>>>>> Sent: Saturday, August 13, 2022 3:01 PM
>>>>>>>>>> Subject: Re: "Accessibility in Fedora Workstation" (fwd)
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> there was an interesting discussion a month or so back on the
>>>>>>>>>> blinux
>>>>>>>>>> list
>>>>>>>>>> about how long it took completing tasks in the gui as apposed
>>>>>>>>>> to say
>>>>>>>>>> command line, the comments were quite informative.
>>>>>>>>>> Still, fs has never marketed largely to the end user. Instead
>>>>>>>>>> they
>>>>>>>>>> market
>>>>>>>>>> to the American rehab community.
>>>>>>>>>> how much market research has the rehab community done to
>>>>>>>>>> support the
>>>>>>>>>> need
>>>>>>>>>> for choices?
>>>>>>>>>> How many rehab counselors support training in Linux?
>>>>>>>>>> one comment made by the subject of this thread about poor
>>>>>>>>>> quality
>>>>>>>>>> speech
>>>>>>>>>> is a fine one...out of the box Linux has few speech choices.
>>>>>>>>>> everyone
>>>>>>>>>> brings their needs to the table there.
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> if you want to get fs to care about Linux, you need to prove
>>>>>>>>>> there is
>>>>>>>>>> money for them there, from their main source of income.
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> On Sat, 13 Aug 2022, K0LNY_Glenn wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>> Well since Orca seems to work on so many distros, I don't
>>>>>>>>>>> know why
>>>>>>>>>>> FS
>>>>>>>>>>> would
>>>>>>>>>>> not be able to do the same.
>>>>>>>>>>> If Jaws users could switch into Linux, it would be a real
>>>>>>>>>>> game
>>>>>>>>>>> changer,
>>>>>>>>>>> and
>>>>>>>>>>> I think with lots more Blind Linux users, we would start
>>>>>>>>>>> seeing
>>>>>>>>>>> accessibility in Linux not being a second thought.
>>>>>>>>>>> Glenn
>>>>>>>>>>> ----- Original Message -----
>>>>>>>>>>> From: "Karen Lewellen" <klewellen at shellworld.net>
>>>>>>>>>>> To: "K0LNY_Glenn" <glenn at ervin.email>
>>>>>>>>>>> Cc: <speakup at linux-speakup.org>; "Milan Zamazal"
>>>>>>>>>>> <pdm at zamazal.org>;
>>>>>>>>>>> <Blinux-list at redhat.com>
>>>>>>>>>>> Sent: Saturday, August 13, 2022 1:47 PM
>>>>>>>>>>> Subject: Re: "Accessibility in Fedora Workstation" (fwd)
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>> Well technically freedom scientific does not exist any
>>>>>>>>>>> longer, being
>>>>>>>>>>> bought
>>>>>>>>>>> by another company.
>>>>>>>>>>> Still, I can respect why they, or nvda have not created
>>>>>>>>>>> their
>>>>>>>>>>> tools
>>>>>>>>>>> for
>>>>>>>>>>> Linux.
>>>>>>>>>>> That is because as I understand it, Linux is quite like
>>>>>>>>>>> clay. You
>>>>>>>>>>> can
>>>>>>>>>>> mold a distribution into almost anything. there are various
>>>>>>>>>>> personifications of the system, all sorts of ways and
>>>>>>>>>>> changes
>>>>>>>>>>> and
>>>>>>>>>>> options
>>>>>>>>>>> for creativity.
>>>>>>>>>>> however adaptive tools are often extensions of physical
>>>>>>>>>>> characteristics,
>>>>>>>>>>> hands, eyes, ears, brains, combinations of these.
>>>>>>>>>>> To build solid assistive tools one must have a solid
>>>>>>>>>>> foundation as
>>>>>>>>>>> it
>>>>>>>>>>> were. that is part of why there have needed to be so few
>>>>>>>>>>> Apple
>>>>>>>>>>> efforts
>>>>>>>>>>> at
>>>>>>>>>>> inclusion, they created with, and then created in-house
>>>>>>>>>>> adaptive
>>>>>>>>>>> tools
>>>>>>>>>>> for various populations that were built into the system.
>>>>>>>>>>> Although Microsoft did not bother until much later, in
>>>>>>>>>>> theory
>>>>>>>>>>> at
>>>>>>>>>>> least,
>>>>>>>>>>> the
>>>>>>>>>>> consistency of windows is what makes it possible for
>>>>>>>>>>> freedom
>>>>>>>>>>> or the
>>>>>>>>>>> former
>>>>>>>>>>> gw micro or nvda to create something that can in theory
>>>>>>>>>>> work.
>>>>>>>>>>> Floor for the furniture is somewhat solid.
>>>>>>>>>>> Just my thoughts,
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>> On Sat, 13 Aug 2022, K0LNY_Glenn wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>> I would like to see Freedom Scientific make a Jaws For
>>>>>>>>>>>> Linux.
>>>>>>>>>>>> JFL
>>>>>>>>>>>> I'd certainly pay the yearly rental fee for it, and it
>>>>>>>>>>>> would bring
>>>>>>>>>>>> many
>>>>>>>>>>>> more
>>>>>>>>>>>> users into Linux.
>>>>>>>>>>>> FS could, with its resources, possibly make it more
>>>>>>>>>>>> robust
>>>>>>>>>>>> than
>>>>>>>>>>>> Orca.
>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>> Glenn
>>>>>>>>>>>> ----- Original Message -----
>>>>>>>>>>>> From: "Milan Zamazal" <pdm at zamazal.org>
>>>>>>>>>>>> To: <speakup at linux-speakup.org>
>>>>>>>>>>>> Cc: <Blinux-list at redhat.com>
>>>>>>>>>>>> Sent: Saturday, August 13, 2022 12:08 PM
>>>>>>>>>>>> Subject: Re: "Accessibility in Fedora Workstation" (fwd)
>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> "KL" == Karen Lewellen
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> <klewellen at shellworld.net>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> writes:
>>>>>>>>>>>> KL> What bothers me most are his lack of actual
>>>>>>>>>>>> qualifications,
>>>>>>>>>>>> and
>>>>>>>>>>>> KL> absolute dismissal of what he has not experienced..as
>>>>>>>>>>>> if
>>>>>>>>>>>> KL> he
>>>>>>>>>>>> KL> defines Linux usage for everyone. That attitude is
>>>>>>>>>>>> KL> dangerous,
>>>>>>>>>>>> KL> because he is educating those outside of the
>>>>>>>>>>>> KL> accessibility
>>>>>>>>>>>> KL> experiences, who will believe his ignorance is
>>>>>>>>>>>> factual.
>>>>>>>>>>>> KL> he
>>>>>>>>>>>> has
>>>>>>>>>>>> KL> to be expert, it is his job.
>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>> Hi Karen,
>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>> I know Lukas personally and I admire his skills and
>>>>>>>>>>>> qualifications.
>>>>>>>>>>>> I
>>>>>>>>>>>> also know first hand that he is open to constructive
>>>>>>>>>>>> feedback and
>>>>>>>>>>>> I
>>>>>>>>>>>> believe he???Td be happy to be corrected about possible
>>>>>>>>>>>> technical
>>>>>>>>>>>> inaccuracies in the interview. It may be also a good
>>>>>>>>>>>> opportunity
>>>>>>>>>>>> to
>>>>>>>>>>>> find out what???Ts possibly missing in making anybody
>>>>>>>>>>>> better
>>>>>>>>>>>> informed.
>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>> As for ???oabsolute dismissal of what he has not
>>>>>>>>>>>> experienced?????,
>>>>>>>>>>>> what
>>>>>>>>>>>> reasonable free software alternatives to a less or more
>>>>>>>>>>>> standard
>>>>>>>>>>>> desktop
>>>>>>>>>>>> with Orca and a software synthesizer can you see for a
>>>>>>>>>>>> common
>>>>>>>>>>>> blind
>>>>>>>>>>>> user
>>>>>>>>>>>> who needs to use a fully working web browser, to read and
>>>>>>>>>>>> process
>>>>>>>>>>>> text
>>>>>>>>>>>> documents, to be compatible with other computer users,
>>>>>>>>>>>> etc.?
>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>> And let???Ts be realistic. We celebrate every single
>>>>>>>>>>>> developer
>>>>>>>>>>>> hired
>>>>>>>>>>>> to
>>>>>>>>>>>> improve accessibility. This tells something about the
>>>>>>>>>>>> state of
>>>>>>>>>>>> the
>>>>>>>>>>>> matters. We cannot expect that a single person will fix
>>>>>>>>>>>> all the
>>>>>>>>>>>> kinds
>>>>>>>>>>>> of accessibility problems in all the environments. Lukas
>>>>>>>>>>>> works at
>>>>>>>>>>>> his
>>>>>>>>>>>> job focusing on certain areas currently seen there as
>>>>>>>>>>>> urgent ones
>>>>>>>>>>>> and I
>>>>>>>>>>>> appreciate this opportunity. Anybody else seeing a need
>>>>>>>>>>>> to
>>>>>>>>>>>> work
>>>>>>>>>>>> on
>>>>>>>>>>>> other areas is welcome to contribute to whatever sees
>>>>>>>>>>>> fit,
>>>>>>>>>>>> as I
>>>>>>>>>>>> do.
>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>> Regards,
>>>>>>>>>>>> Milan
>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>
>>
>
>
^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 78+ messages in thread
* "Accessibility in Fedora Workstation" (fwd)
[not found] ` <002201d8b278$f82e4070$80ffa8c0@Win7VM>
@ ` blinux-list
[not found] ` <Pine.LNX.4.64.2208171638110.1359061@server2.she llworld.net>
1 sibling, 0 replies; 78+ messages in thread
From: blinux-list @ UTC (permalink / raw)
Glen,
you are missing the point.
A commission board, at least if constructed with integrity serves as a
watchdog for your organization's activities.
Making sure that you act, objectively, and above influence with government
funding.
That role differs from a public servant, like yourself.
In fact that the commission has members from both organizations is
exactly why you should not be a member.
if, as you said, the state has an Nfb philosophy, I wonder just how above
influence that commission actually is, lip service attendance does not
translate to the statement you freely made.
Honestly, i wish I knew someone with Nebraska public radio. there is a
investigative, data journalism piece right here, exploring how objective
your office is in fact.
On Wed, 17 Aug 2022, K0LNY_Glenn wrote:
> Karen,
> In Nebraska, the commission board attends both consumer groups' state
> conventions.
> So there is total transparency within the consumer groups.
> The agency sends clients to both conventions for educational purposes.
> Some can go to either national convention on the state.
> Glenn
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: "Karen Lewellen" <klewellen at shellworld.net>
> To: "K0LNY_Glenn" <glenn at ervin.email>
> Cc: "Butch Bussen" <butchb at shellworld.net>; "John G. Heim" <jheim at wisc.edu>;
> <speakup at linux-speakup.org>; "Milan Zamazal" <pdm at zamazal.org>;
> <Blinux-list at redhat.com>
> Sent: Wednesday, August 17, 2022 2:06 PM
> Subject: Re: "Accessibility in Fedora Workstation" (fwd)
>
>
> wrong.
> Your first duty is to those clients You serve. as illustrated here the Nfb
> used their ability to reach insiders to influence policy to the detriment
> of the broader community...same can clearly be said for freedom
> scientific.
> That you stated clearly that your rehab system runs on an nfb philosophy
> illustrates my point perfectly.
> There are countless legal terms for such conflicts of interest, I dare
> say if you were serving any other clientele your government watchdog would
> put a stop to the practice.
> allows the organization to have undue almost antitrust influence on
> people's lives.
>
>
>
> On Wed, 17 Aug 2022, K0LNY_Glenn wrote:
>
>> I don't think so, we are people first, and being a government employee
>> should not preclude personal rights.
>> Besides, I attended the conventions for CEU credits, but I never joined
>> with
>> dues.
>> Glenn
>> ----- Original Message -----
>> From: "Karen Lewellen" <klewellen at shellworld.net>
>> To: "K0LNY_Glenn" <glenn at ervin.email>
>> Cc: "Butch Bussen" <butchb at shellworld.net>; "John G. Heim"
>> <jheim at wisc.edu>;
>> <speakup at linux-speakup.org>; "Milan Zamazal" <pdm at zamazal.org>;
>> <Blinux-list at redhat.com>
>> Sent: Wednesday, August 17, 2022 11:36 AM
>> Subject: Re: "Accessibility in Fedora Workstation" (fwd)
>>
>>
>> speaking personally?
>> No government employee should be a member of the NfB. ethical conflict
>> of interest personified.
>>
>> Karen
>>
>>
>> On Wed, 17 Aug 2022, K0LNY_Glenn wrote:
>>
>>> Yeah, I had been to a state NFBN convention that year and did the PAC
>>> thing.
>>> Then when the NFB did that, I called up the state treasurer for the NFBN
>>> and
>>> cancelled my PAC plan.
>>> I told them that they don't care if I can read my money, then they don't
>>> need any from me.
>>> Glenn
>>> ----- Original Message -----
>>> From: "Karen Lewellen" <klewellen at shellworld.net>
>>> To: "Butch Bussen" <butchb at shellworld.net>
>>> Cc: "John G. Heim" <jheim at wisc.edu>; "K0LNY_Glenn" <glenn at ervin.email>;
>>> <speakup at linux-speakup.org>; "Milan Zamazal" <pdm at zamazal.org>;
>>> <Blinux-list at redhat.com>
>>> Sent: Wednesday, August 17, 2022 11:18 AM
>>> Subject: Re: "Accessibility in Fedora Workstation" (fwd)
>>>
>>>
>>> My personal favorite is the rejection of money that could be identified
>>> by touch. never mind that for honestly thousands of years the practice
>>> has
>>> been common so those with limited education could still engage in
>>> commerce.
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> On Wed, 17 Aug 2022, Butch Bussen wrote:
>>>
>>>> Yes, I remember that. And what about their oposition to descriptive
>>>> video,
>>>> even filed a law sute to get the law thrown out, which it was at that
>>>> time.
>>>> 73
>>>> Butch
>>>> WA0VJR
>>>> Node 3148
>>>> Wallace, ks.
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> On Tue, 16 Aug 2022, John G. Heim wrote:
>>>>
>>>>> Holy cow! Are you aware that the NFB once asked Microsoft to *NOT*
>>>>> improve
>>>>> Narrator to the point where it would compete with Jaws? If you think
>>>>> the
>>>>> NFB is incapable of forcing choices on people, you are very sadly
>>>>> mistaken.
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> On 8/16/22 09:36, K0LNY_Glenn wrote:
>>>>>> This sort of thing would never happen in Nebraska, or any state
>>>>>> where
>>>>>> the
>>>>>> agency staff is of the NFB philosophy.
>>>>>> Say what you want about the NFB, no organization is without its
>>>>>> problems,
>>>>>> but it is the core philosophy that formed the NFB that knows that
>>>>>> society
>>>>>> has low expectations of the Blind, and this is why the NFB believes
>>>>>> in
>>>>>> skills and high expectations.
>>>>>> And with that, comes giving respect to the Blind, like the respect
>>>>>> of
>>>>>> choice.
>>>>>> Yeah I know about the information of recent about NFB abuse, but
>>>>>> this
>>>>>> is
>>>>>> organizational issues, unrelated to the philosophy. In fact, the
>>>>>> fact
>>>>>> that
>>>>>> it has come up demonstrates that the NFB is no different than any
>>>>>> other
>>>>>> organization in interpersonal staff issues.
>>>>>> And choice does not mean training center choices.
>>>>>> Choice isn't always an option, just like if you took a vocational
>>>>>> course
>>>>>> in
>>>>>> college, there are things you have to take, so to me, the lack of
>>>>>> choice
>>>>>> in
>>>>>> this regard is different than computer software, where all the
>>>>>> choices
>>>>>> will
>>>>>> reach the same end result.
>>>>>> In states where the NFB philosophy is embraced, if a client said I
>>>>>> want
>>>>>> to
>>>>>> use a Mac, or I want Window Eyes, then that is what they would get,
>>>>>> no
>>>>>> questions asked.
>>>>>> They would not have to fight to get it.
>>>>>> I simply cannot imagine a counselor saying that someone has to use
>>>>>> the
>>>>>> software that the counselor wants them to have.
>>>>>> When I hear that stuff, I almost cannot believe it, but I know Butch
>>>>>> well
>>>>>> enough to know he wouldn't make that up.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Glenn
>>>>>> ----- Original Message -----
>>>>>> From: "Butch Bussen" <butchb at shellworld.net>
>>>>>> To: "Karen Lewellen" <klewellen at shellworld.net>
>>>>>> Cc: "K0LNY_Glenn" <glenn at ervin.email>; <speakup at linux-speakup.org>;
>>>>>> "Milan
>>>>>> Zamazal" <pdm at zamazal.org>; <Blinux-list at redhat.com>
>>>>>> Sent: Tuesday, August 16, 2022 8:18 AM
>>>>>> Subject: Re: "Accessibility in Fedora Workstation" (fwd)
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>> You are right. In Nevada, freedom pushed jaws to the rehab people
>>>>>> and
>>>>>> took them out for steak diners and so forth. I fought like hell to
>>>>>> get
>>>>>> them to buy window-eyes.
>>>>>> 73
>>>>>> Butch
>>>>>> WA0VJR
>>>>>> Node 3148
>>>>>> Wallace, ks.
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>> On Sun, 14 Aug 2022, Karen Lewellen wrote:
>>>>>>
>>>>>>> And where do these employers learn about jaws?
>>>>>>> In fact, provide if you do not mind an example of how this works
>>>>>>> exactly.
>>>>>>> after all, unless I am incorrect, these employers are not personal
>>>>>>> Jaws
>>>>>>> users, meaning someone they trust continues to sell them on an
>>>>>>> expensive
>>>>>>> program instead of a largely free one.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> On Sat, 13 Aug 2022, K0LNY_Glenn wrote:
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> Karen,
>>>>>>>> Most employers don't want NVDA, and will only allow Jaws.
>>>>>>>> In Nebraska, if an employer said put on whatever works, the
>>>>>>>> counselors
>>>>>>>> will
>>>>>>>> use NVDA, because of the cost of Jaws.
>>>>>>>> If some of the clients in a call center already use Jaws, but
>>>>>>>> don't know
>>>>>>>> NVDA, the counselor will use Jaws, because the other clients
>>>>>>>> will
>>>>>>>> need
>>>>>>>> to
>>>>>>>> learn one of the two.
>>>>>>>> So it's all choice, but in the workplace, it depends on what
>>>>>>>> the
>>>>>>>> employer
>>>>>>>> will allow.
>>>>>>>> Also, sometimes scripts need to be made, and there are more
>>>>>>>> Jaws
>>>>>>>> scripters
>>>>>>>> available than there are NVDA add-on writers.
>>>>>>>> So this perception that Jaws is forced by rehab, from my 31
>>>>>>>> years
>>>>>>>> in the
>>>>>>>> business I can say is rubbish.
>>>>>>>> Now, if a counselor did not know how to use NVDA, and either
>>>>>>>> may
>>>>>>>> be
>>>>>>>> chosen,
>>>>>>>> the rehab counselor is able to select the one that the
>>>>>>>> counselor
>>>>>>>> feels
>>>>>>>> is
>>>>>>>> best for the student and for the counselor's teaching.
>>>>>>>> When it comes to part B moneys, which is used for
>>>>>>>> non-vocational
>>>>>>>> purchases,
>>>>>>>> where a lot of Jaws purchases come from, it is in the agency's
>>>>>>>> best
>>>>>>>> interest
>>>>>>>> to spend as little as possible, because that doesn't come back
>>>>>>>> like VR
>>>>>>>> expenditures do.
>>>>>>>> Glenn
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> ----- Original Message -----
>>>>>>>> From: "Karen Lewellen" <klewellen at shellworld.net>
>>>>>>>> To: "K0LNY_Glenn" <glenn at ervin.email>
>>>>>>>> Cc: <speakup at linux-speakup.org>; "Milan Zamazal"
>>>>>>>> <pdm at zamazal.org>;
>>>>>>>> <Blinux-list at redhat.com>
>>>>>>>> Sent: Saturday, August 13, 2022 6:15 PM
>>>>>>>> Subject: Re: "Accessibility in Fedora Workstation" (fwd)
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> The challenge with that example is that, as one often gets
>>>>>>>> reminded,
>>>>>>>> the
>>>>>>>> rehab systems track record for facilitating employment for
>>>>>>>> their
>>>>>>>> clients
>>>>>>>> is quite poor.
>>>>>>>> With a high percentage of unemployment among our clients.
>>>>>>>> Making,
>>>>>>>> speaking personally, your buying Jaws for personal use not
>>>>>>>> really
>>>>>>>> reflecting how the system would respond to an alternative
>>>>>>>> request.
>>>>>>>> Now if someone from organized rehab said, okay freedom
>>>>>>>> scientific, we
>>>>>>>> are
>>>>>>>> creating an employment program where our clients will train in
>>>>>>>> Linux,
>>>>>>>> needing a solid screen reader solution for the system. We will
>>>>>>>> give you
>>>>>>>> an
>>>>>>>> exclusive development contract for s millions to create the
>>>>>>>> tool.
>>>>>>>> Fs would likely say where do we sign?
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> On Sat, 13 Aug 2022, K0LNY_Glenn wrote:
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> True enough, but largely, rehab people typically use Windows
>>>>>>>>> at
>>>>>>>>> work,
>>>>>>>>> and
>>>>>>>>> probably at home, but they need to cater to the needs of the
>>>>>>>>> client.
>>>>>>>>> If a client used Linux, I doubt that any rehab counselor
>>>>>>>>> would
>>>>>>>>> advocate
>>>>>>>>> that
>>>>>>>>> the client switch to Windows, unless that was needed for a
>>>>>>>>> specific
>>>>>>>>> job.
>>>>>>>>> In Nebraska, we purchased Jaws much more for personal use
>>>>>>>>> than
>>>>>>>>> we did
>>>>>>>>> for
>>>>>>>>> work related situations.
>>>>>>>>> So if FS made a JFL, and people were using Linux, rehab would
>>>>>>>>> indeed
>>>>>>>>> purchase a JFL product.
>>>>>>>>> Glenn
>>>>>>>>> ----- Original Message -----
>>>>>>>>> From: "Karen Lewellen" <klewellen at shellworld.net>
>>>>>>>>> To: "K0LNY_Glenn" <glenn at ervin.email>
>>>>>>>>> Cc: <speakup at linux-speakup.org>; "Milan Zamazal"
>>>>>>>>> <pdm at zamazal.org>;
>>>>>>>>> <Blinux-list at redhat.com>
>>>>>>>>> Sent: Saturday, August 13, 2022 3:01 PM
>>>>>>>>> Subject: Re: "Accessibility in Fedora Workstation" (fwd)
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> there was an interesting discussion a month or so back on the
>>>>>>>>> blinux
>>>>>>>>> list
>>>>>>>>> about how long it took completing tasks in the gui as apposed
>>>>>>>>> to say
>>>>>>>>> command line, the comments were quite informative.
>>>>>>>>> Still, fs has never marketed largely to the end user. Instead
>>>>>>>>> they
>>>>>>>>> market
>>>>>>>>> to the American rehab community.
>>>>>>>>> how much market research has the rehab community done to
>>>>>>>>> support the
>>>>>>>>> need
>>>>>>>>> for choices?
>>>>>>>>> How many rehab counselors support training in Linux?
>>>>>>>>> one comment made by the subject of this thread about poor
>>>>>>>>> quality
>>>>>>>>> speech
>>>>>>>>> is a fine one...out of the box Linux has few speech choices.
>>>>>>>>> everyone
>>>>>>>>> brings their needs to the table there.
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> if you want to get fs to care about Linux, you need to prove
>>>>>>>>> there is
>>>>>>>>> money for them there, from their main source of income.
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> On Sat, 13 Aug 2022, K0LNY_Glenn wrote:
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> Well since Orca seems to work on so many distros, I don't
>>>>>>>>>> know why
>>>>>>>>>> FS
>>>>>>>>>> would
>>>>>>>>>> not be able to do the same.
>>>>>>>>>> If Jaws users could switch into Linux, it would be a real
>>>>>>>>>> game
>>>>>>>>>> changer,
>>>>>>>>>> and
>>>>>>>>>> I think with lots more Blind Linux users, we would start
>>>>>>>>>> seeing
>>>>>>>>>> accessibility in Linux not being a second thought.
>>>>>>>>>> Glenn
>>>>>>>>>> ----- Original Message -----
>>>>>>>>>> From: "Karen Lewellen" <klewellen at shellworld.net>
>>>>>>>>>> To: "K0LNY_Glenn" <glenn at ervin.email>
>>>>>>>>>> Cc: <speakup at linux-speakup.org>; "Milan Zamazal"
>>>>>>>>>> <pdm at zamazal.org>;
>>>>>>>>>> <Blinux-list at redhat.com>
>>>>>>>>>> Sent: Saturday, August 13, 2022 1:47 PM
>>>>>>>>>> Subject: Re: "Accessibility in Fedora Workstation" (fwd)
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> Well technically freedom scientific does not exist any
>>>>>>>>>> longer, being
>>>>>>>>>> bought
>>>>>>>>>> by another company.
>>>>>>>>>> Still, I can respect why they, or nvda have not created
>>>>>>>>>> their
>>>>>>>>>> tools
>>>>>>>>>> for
>>>>>>>>>> Linux.
>>>>>>>>>> That is because as I understand it, Linux is quite like
>>>>>>>>>> clay. You
>>>>>>>>>> can
>>>>>>>>>> mold a distribution into almost anything. there are various
>>>>>>>>>> personifications of the system, all sorts of ways and
>>>>>>>>>> changes
>>>>>>>>>> and
>>>>>>>>>> options
>>>>>>>>>> for creativity.
>>>>>>>>>> however adaptive tools are often extensions of physical
>>>>>>>>>> characteristics,
>>>>>>>>>> hands, eyes, ears, brains, combinations of these.
>>>>>>>>>> To build solid assistive tools one must have a solid
>>>>>>>>>> foundation as
>>>>>>>>>> it
>>>>>>>>>> were. that is part of why there have needed to be so few
>>>>>>>>>> Apple
>>>>>>>>>> efforts
>>>>>>>>>> at
>>>>>>>>>> inclusion, they created with, and then created in-house
>>>>>>>>>> adaptive
>>>>>>>>>> tools
>>>>>>>>>> for various populations that were built into the system.
>>>>>>>>>> Although Microsoft did not bother until much later, in
>>>>>>>>>> theory
>>>>>>>>>> at
>>>>>>>>>> least,
>>>>>>>>>> the
>>>>>>>>>> consistency of windows is what makes it possible for
>>>>>>>>>> freedom
>>>>>>>>>> or the
>>>>>>>>>> former
>>>>>>>>>> gw micro or nvda to create something that can in theory
>>>>>>>>>> work.
>>>>>>>>>> Floor for the furniture is somewhat solid.
>>>>>>>>>> Just my thoughts,
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> On Sat, 13 Aug 2022, K0LNY_Glenn wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>> I would like to see Freedom Scientific make a Jaws For
>>>>>>>>>>> Linux.
>>>>>>>>>>> JFL
>>>>>>>>>>> I'd certainly pay the yearly rental fee for it, and it
>>>>>>>>>>> would bring
>>>>>>>>>>> many
>>>>>>>>>>> more
>>>>>>>>>>> users into Linux.
>>>>>>>>>>> FS could, with its resources, possibly make it more
>>>>>>>>>>> robust
>>>>>>>>>>> than
>>>>>>>>>>> Orca.
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>> Glenn
>>>>>>>>>>> ----- Original Message -----
>>>>>>>>>>> From: "Milan Zamazal" <pdm at zamazal.org>
>>>>>>>>>>> To: <speakup at linux-speakup.org>
>>>>>>>>>>> Cc: <Blinux-list at redhat.com>
>>>>>>>>>>> Sent: Saturday, August 13, 2022 12:08 PM
>>>>>>>>>>> Subject: Re: "Accessibility in Fedora Workstation" (fwd)
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> "KL" == Karen Lewellen
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> <klewellen at shellworld.net>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> writes:
>>>>>>>>>>> KL> What bothers me most are his lack of actual
>>>>>>>>>>> qualifications,
>>>>>>>>>>> and
>>>>>>>>>>> KL> absolute dismissal of what he has not experienced..as
>>>>>>>>>>> if
>>>>>>>>>>> KL> he
>>>>>>>>>>> KL> defines Linux usage for everyone. That attitude is
>>>>>>>>>>> KL> dangerous,
>>>>>>>>>>> KL> because he is educating those outside of the
>>>>>>>>>>> KL> accessibility
>>>>>>>>>>> KL> experiences, who will believe his ignorance is
>>>>>>>>>>> factual.
>>>>>>>>>>> KL> he
>>>>>>>>>>> has
>>>>>>>>>>> KL> to be expert, it is his job.
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>> Hi Karen,
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>> I know Lukas personally and I admire his skills and
>>>>>>>>>>> qualifications.
>>>>>>>>>>> I
>>>>>>>>>>> also know first hand that he is open to constructive
>>>>>>>>>>> feedback and
>>>>>>>>>>> I
>>>>>>>>>>> believe he???Td be happy to be corrected about possible
>>>>>>>>>>> technical
>>>>>>>>>>> inaccuracies in the interview. It may be also a good
>>>>>>>>>>> opportunity
>>>>>>>>>>> to
>>>>>>>>>>> find out what???Ts possibly missing in making anybody
>>>>>>>>>>> better
>>>>>>>>>>> informed.
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>> As for ???oabsolute dismissal of what he has not
>>>>>>>>>>> experienced?????,
>>>>>>>>>>> what
>>>>>>>>>>> reasonable free software alternatives to a less or more
>>>>>>>>>>> standard
>>>>>>>>>>> desktop
>>>>>>>>>>> with Orca and a software synthesizer can you see for a
>>>>>>>>>>> common
>>>>>>>>>>> blind
>>>>>>>>>>> user
>>>>>>>>>>> who needs to use a fully working web browser, to read and
>>>>>>>>>>> process
>>>>>>>>>>> text
>>>>>>>>>>> documents, to be compatible with other computer users,
>>>>>>>>>>> etc.?
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>> And let???Ts be realistic. We celebrate every single
>>>>>>>>>>> developer
>>>>>>>>>>> hired
>>>>>>>>>>> to
>>>>>>>>>>> improve accessibility. This tells something about the
>>>>>>>>>>> state of
>>>>>>>>>>> the
>>>>>>>>>>> matters. We cannot expect that a single person will fix
>>>>>>>>>>> all the
>>>>>>>>>>> kinds
>>>>>>>>>>> of accessibility problems in all the environments. Lukas
>>>>>>>>>>> works at
>>>>>>>>>>> his
>>>>>>>>>>> job focusing on certain areas currently seen there as
>>>>>>>>>>> urgent ones
>>>>>>>>>>> and I
>>>>>>>>>>> appreciate this opportunity. Anybody else seeing a need
>>>>>>>>>>> to
>>>>>>>>>>> work
>>>>>>>>>>> on
>>>>>>>>>>> other areas is welcome to contribute to whatever sees
>>>>>>>>>>> fit,
>>>>>>>>>>> as I
>>>>>>>>>>> do.
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>> Regards,
>>>>>>>>>>> Milan
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>
>>>
>>>
>>
>>
>>
>
>
^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 78+ messages in thread
* "Accessibility in Fedora Workstation" (fwd)
[not found] ` <003c01d8b258$0bc5acc0$80ffa8c0@Win7VM>
@ ` blinux-list
[not found] ` <Pine.LNX.4.64.2208171501270.1356841@server2.shellworld.net>
1 sibling, 0 replies; 78+ messages in thread
From: blinux-list @ UTC (permalink / raw)
wrong.
Your first duty is to those clients You serve. as illustrated here the Nfb
used their ability to reach insiders to influence policy to the detriment
of the broader community...same can clearly be said for freedom
scientific.
That you stated clearly that your rehab system runs on an nfb philosophy
illustrates my point perfectly.
There are countless legal terms for such conflicts of interest, I dare
say if you were serving any other clientele your government watchdog would
put a stop to the practice.
allows the organization to have undue almost antitrust influence on
people's lives.
On Wed, 17 Aug 2022, K0LNY_Glenn wrote:
> I don't think so, we are people first, and being a government employee
> should not preclude personal rights.
> Besides, I attended the conventions for CEU credits, but I never joined with
> dues.
> Glenn
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: "Karen Lewellen" <klewellen at shellworld.net>
> To: "K0LNY_Glenn" <glenn at ervin.email>
> Cc: "Butch Bussen" <butchb at shellworld.net>; "John G. Heim" <jheim at wisc.edu>;
> <speakup at linux-speakup.org>; "Milan Zamazal" <pdm at zamazal.org>;
> <Blinux-list at redhat.com>
> Sent: Wednesday, August 17, 2022 11:36 AM
> Subject: Re: "Accessibility in Fedora Workstation" (fwd)
>
>
> speaking personally?
> No government employee should be a member of the NfB. ethical conflict
> of interest personified.
>
> Karen
>
>
> On Wed, 17 Aug 2022, K0LNY_Glenn wrote:
>
>> Yeah, I had been to a state NFBN convention that year and did the PAC
>> thing.
>> Then when the NFB did that, I called up the state treasurer for the NFBN
>> and
>> cancelled my PAC plan.
>> I told them that they don't care if I can read my money, then they don't
>> need any from me.
>> Glenn
>> ----- Original Message -----
>> From: "Karen Lewellen" <klewellen at shellworld.net>
>> To: "Butch Bussen" <butchb at shellworld.net>
>> Cc: "John G. Heim" <jheim at wisc.edu>; "K0LNY_Glenn" <glenn at ervin.email>;
>> <speakup at linux-speakup.org>; "Milan Zamazal" <pdm at zamazal.org>;
>> <Blinux-list at redhat.com>
>> Sent: Wednesday, August 17, 2022 11:18 AM
>> Subject: Re: "Accessibility in Fedora Workstation" (fwd)
>>
>>
>> My personal favorite is the rejection of money that could be identified
>> by touch. never mind that for honestly thousands of years the practice
>> has
>> been common so those with limited education could still engage in
>> commerce.
>>
>>
>>
>> On Wed, 17 Aug 2022, Butch Bussen wrote:
>>
>>> Yes, I remember that. And what about their oposition to descriptive
>>> video,
>>> even filed a law sute to get the law thrown out, which it was at that
>>> time.
>>> 73
>>> Butch
>>> WA0VJR
>>> Node 3148
>>> Wallace, ks.
>>>
>>>
>>> On Tue, 16 Aug 2022, John G. Heim wrote:
>>>
>>>> Holy cow! Are you aware that the NFB once asked Microsoft to *NOT*
>>>> improve
>>>> Narrator to the point where it would compete with Jaws? If you think
>>>> the
>>>> NFB is incapable of forcing choices on people, you are very sadly
>>>> mistaken.
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> On 8/16/22 09:36, K0LNY_Glenn wrote:
>>>>> This sort of thing would never happen in Nebraska, or any state where
>>>>> the
>>>>> agency staff is of the NFB philosophy.
>>>>> Say what you want about the NFB, no organization is without its
>>>>> problems,
>>>>> but it is the core philosophy that formed the NFB that knows that
>>>>> society
>>>>> has low expectations of the Blind, and this is why the NFB believes
>>>>> in
>>>>> skills and high expectations.
>>>>> And with that, comes giving respect to the Blind, like the respect of
>>>>> choice.
>>>>> Yeah I know about the information of recent about NFB abuse, but this
>>>>> is
>>>>> organizational issues, unrelated to the philosophy. In fact, the
>>>>> fact
>>>>> that
>>>>> it has come up demonstrates that the NFB is no different than any
>>>>> other
>>>>> organization in interpersonal staff issues.
>>>>> And choice does not mean training center choices.
>>>>> Choice isn't always an option, just like if you took a vocational
>>>>> course
>>>>> in
>>>>> college, there are things you have to take, so to me, the lack of
>>>>> choice
>>>>> in
>>>>> this regard is different than computer software, where all the
>>>>> choices
>>>>> will
>>>>> reach the same end result.
>>>>> In states where the NFB philosophy is embraced, if a client said I
>>>>> want
>>>>> to
>>>>> use a Mac, or I want Window Eyes, then that is what they would get,
>>>>> no
>>>>> questions asked.
>>>>> They would not have to fight to get it.
>>>>> I simply cannot imagine a counselor saying that someone has to use
>>>>> the
>>>>> software that the counselor wants them to have.
>>>>> When I hear that stuff, I almost cannot believe it, but I know Butch
>>>>> well
>>>>> enough to know he wouldn't make that up.
>>>>>
>>>>> Glenn
>>>>> ----- Original Message -----
>>>>> From: "Butch Bussen" <butchb at shellworld.net>
>>>>> To: "Karen Lewellen" <klewellen at shellworld.net>
>>>>> Cc: "K0LNY_Glenn" <glenn at ervin.email>; <speakup at linux-speakup.org>;
>>>>> "Milan
>>>>> Zamazal" <pdm at zamazal.org>; <Blinux-list at redhat.com>
>>>>> Sent: Tuesday, August 16, 2022 8:18 AM
>>>>> Subject: Re: "Accessibility in Fedora Workstation" (fwd)
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> You are right. In Nevada, freedom pushed jaws to the rehab people
>>>>> and
>>>>> took them out for steak diners and so forth. I fought like hell to
>>>>> get
>>>>> them to buy window-eyes.
>>>>> 73
>>>>> Butch
>>>>> WA0VJR
>>>>> Node 3148
>>>>> Wallace, ks.
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> On Sun, 14 Aug 2022, Karen Lewellen wrote:
>>>>>
>>>>>> And where do these employers learn about jaws?
>>>>>> In fact, provide if you do not mind an example of how this works
>>>>>> exactly.
>>>>>> after all, unless I am incorrect, these employers are not personal
>>>>>> Jaws
>>>>>> users, meaning someone they trust continues to sell them on an
>>>>>> expensive
>>>>>> program instead of a largely free one.
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>> On Sat, 13 Aug 2022, K0LNY_Glenn wrote:
>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Karen,
>>>>>>> Most employers don't want NVDA, and will only allow Jaws.
>>>>>>> In Nebraska, if an employer said put on whatever works, the
>>>>>>> counselors
>>>>>>> will
>>>>>>> use NVDA, because of the cost of Jaws.
>>>>>>> If some of the clients in a call center already use Jaws, but
>>>>>>> don't know
>>>>>>> NVDA, the counselor will use Jaws, because the other clients
>>>>>>> will
>>>>>>> need
>>>>>>> to
>>>>>>> learn one of the two.
>>>>>>> So it's all choice, but in the workplace, it depends on what
>>>>>>> the
>>>>>>> employer
>>>>>>> will allow.
>>>>>>> Also, sometimes scripts need to be made, and there are more
>>>>>>> Jaws
>>>>>>> scripters
>>>>>>> available than there are NVDA add-on writers.
>>>>>>> So this perception that Jaws is forced by rehab, from my 31
>>>>>>> years
>>>>>>> in the
>>>>>>> business I can say is rubbish.
>>>>>>> Now, if a counselor did not know how to use NVDA, and either
>>>>>>> may
>>>>>>> be
>>>>>>> chosen,
>>>>>>> the rehab counselor is able to select the one that the
>>>>>>> counselor
>>>>>>> feels
>>>>>>> is
>>>>>>> best for the student and for the counselor's teaching.
>>>>>>> When it comes to part B moneys, which is used for
>>>>>>> non-vocational
>>>>>>> purchases,
>>>>>>> where a lot of Jaws purchases come from, it is in the agency's
>>>>>>> best
>>>>>>> interest
>>>>>>> to spend as little as possible, because that doesn't come back
>>>>>>> like VR
>>>>>>> expenditures do.
>>>>>>> Glenn
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> ----- Original Message -----
>>>>>>> From: "Karen Lewellen" <klewellen at shellworld.net>
>>>>>>> To: "K0LNY_Glenn" <glenn at ervin.email>
>>>>>>> Cc: <speakup at linux-speakup.org>; "Milan Zamazal"
>>>>>>> <pdm at zamazal.org>;
>>>>>>> <Blinux-list at redhat.com>
>>>>>>> Sent: Saturday, August 13, 2022 6:15 PM
>>>>>>> Subject: Re: "Accessibility in Fedora Workstation" (fwd)
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> The challenge with that example is that, as one often gets
>>>>>>> reminded,
>>>>>>> the
>>>>>>> rehab systems track record for facilitating employment for
>>>>>>> their
>>>>>>> clients
>>>>>>> is quite poor.
>>>>>>> With a high percentage of unemployment among our clients.
>>>>>>> Making,
>>>>>>> speaking personally, your buying Jaws for personal use not
>>>>>>> really
>>>>>>> reflecting how the system would respond to an alternative
>>>>>>> request.
>>>>>>> Now if someone from organized rehab said, okay freedom
>>>>>>> scientific, we
>>>>>>> are
>>>>>>> creating an employment program where our clients will train in
>>>>>>> Linux,
>>>>>>> needing a solid screen reader solution for the system. We will
>>>>>>> give you
>>>>>>> an
>>>>>>> exclusive development contract for s millions to create the
>>>>>>> tool.
>>>>>>> Fs would likely say where do we sign?
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> On Sat, 13 Aug 2022, K0LNY_Glenn wrote:
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> True enough, but largely, rehab people typically use Windows
>>>>>>>> at
>>>>>>>> work,
>>>>>>>> and
>>>>>>>> probably at home, but they need to cater to the needs of the
>>>>>>>> client.
>>>>>>>> If a client used Linux, I doubt that any rehab counselor
>>>>>>>> would
>>>>>>>> advocate
>>>>>>>> that
>>>>>>>> the client switch to Windows, unless that was needed for a
>>>>>>>> specific
>>>>>>>> job.
>>>>>>>> In Nebraska, we purchased Jaws much more for personal use
>>>>>>>> than
>>>>>>>> we did
>>>>>>>> for
>>>>>>>> work related situations.
>>>>>>>> So if FS made a JFL, and people were using Linux, rehab would
>>>>>>>> indeed
>>>>>>>> purchase a JFL product.
>>>>>>>> Glenn
>>>>>>>> ----- Original Message -----
>>>>>>>> From: "Karen Lewellen" <klewellen at shellworld.net>
>>>>>>>> To: "K0LNY_Glenn" <glenn at ervin.email>
>>>>>>>> Cc: <speakup at linux-speakup.org>; "Milan Zamazal"
>>>>>>>> <pdm at zamazal.org>;
>>>>>>>> <Blinux-list at redhat.com>
>>>>>>>> Sent: Saturday, August 13, 2022 3:01 PM
>>>>>>>> Subject: Re: "Accessibility in Fedora Workstation" (fwd)
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> there was an interesting discussion a month or so back on the
>>>>>>>> blinux
>>>>>>>> list
>>>>>>>> about how long it took completing tasks in the gui as apposed
>>>>>>>> to say
>>>>>>>> command line, the comments were quite informative.
>>>>>>>> Still, fs has never marketed largely to the end user. Instead
>>>>>>>> they
>>>>>>>> market
>>>>>>>> to the American rehab community.
>>>>>>>> how much market research has the rehab community done to
>>>>>>>> support the
>>>>>>>> need
>>>>>>>> for choices?
>>>>>>>> How many rehab counselors support training in Linux?
>>>>>>>> one comment made by the subject of this thread about poor
>>>>>>>> quality
>>>>>>>> speech
>>>>>>>> is a fine one...out of the box Linux has few speech choices.
>>>>>>>> everyone
>>>>>>>> brings their needs to the table there.
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> if you want to get fs to care about Linux, you need to prove
>>>>>>>> there is
>>>>>>>> money for them there, from their main source of income.
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> On Sat, 13 Aug 2022, K0LNY_Glenn wrote:
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> Well since Orca seems to work on so many distros, I don't
>>>>>>>>> know why
>>>>>>>>> FS
>>>>>>>>> would
>>>>>>>>> not be able to do the same.
>>>>>>>>> If Jaws users could switch into Linux, it would be a real
>>>>>>>>> game
>>>>>>>>> changer,
>>>>>>>>> and
>>>>>>>>> I think with lots more Blind Linux users, we would start
>>>>>>>>> seeing
>>>>>>>>> accessibility in Linux not being a second thought.
>>>>>>>>> Glenn
>>>>>>>>> ----- Original Message -----
>>>>>>>>> From: "Karen Lewellen" <klewellen at shellworld.net>
>>>>>>>>> To: "K0LNY_Glenn" <glenn at ervin.email>
>>>>>>>>> Cc: <speakup at linux-speakup.org>; "Milan Zamazal"
>>>>>>>>> <pdm at zamazal.org>;
>>>>>>>>> <Blinux-list at redhat.com>
>>>>>>>>> Sent: Saturday, August 13, 2022 1:47 PM
>>>>>>>>> Subject: Re: "Accessibility in Fedora Workstation" (fwd)
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> Well technically freedom scientific does not exist any
>>>>>>>>> longer, being
>>>>>>>>> bought
>>>>>>>>> by another company.
>>>>>>>>> Still, I can respect why they, or nvda have not created
>>>>>>>>> their
>>>>>>>>> tools
>>>>>>>>> for
>>>>>>>>> Linux.
>>>>>>>>> That is because as I understand it, Linux is quite like
>>>>>>>>> clay. You
>>>>>>>>> can
>>>>>>>>> mold a distribution into almost anything. there are various
>>>>>>>>> personifications of the system, all sorts of ways and
>>>>>>>>> changes
>>>>>>>>> and
>>>>>>>>> options
>>>>>>>>> for creativity.
>>>>>>>>> however adaptive tools are often extensions of physical
>>>>>>>>> characteristics,
>>>>>>>>> hands, eyes, ears, brains, combinations of these.
>>>>>>>>> To build solid assistive tools one must have a solid
>>>>>>>>> foundation as
>>>>>>>>> it
>>>>>>>>> were. that is part of why there have needed to be so few
>>>>>>>>> Apple
>>>>>>>>> efforts
>>>>>>>>> at
>>>>>>>>> inclusion, they created with, and then created in-house
>>>>>>>>> adaptive
>>>>>>>>> tools
>>>>>>>>> for various populations that were built into the system.
>>>>>>>>> Although Microsoft did not bother until much later, in
>>>>>>>>> theory
>>>>>>>>> at
>>>>>>>>> least,
>>>>>>>>> the
>>>>>>>>> consistency of windows is what makes it possible for
>>>>>>>>> freedom
>>>>>>>>> or the
>>>>>>>>> former
>>>>>>>>> gw micro or nvda to create something that can in theory
>>>>>>>>> work.
>>>>>>>>> Floor for the furniture is somewhat solid.
>>>>>>>>> Just my thoughts,
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> On Sat, 13 Aug 2022, K0LNY_Glenn wrote:
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> I would like to see Freedom Scientific make a Jaws For
>>>>>>>>>> Linux.
>>>>>>>>>> JFL
>>>>>>>>>> I'd certainly pay the yearly rental fee for it, and it
>>>>>>>>>> would bring
>>>>>>>>>> many
>>>>>>>>>> more
>>>>>>>>>> users into Linux.
>>>>>>>>>> FS could, with its resources, possibly make it more
>>>>>>>>>> robust
>>>>>>>>>> than
>>>>>>>>>> Orca.
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> Glenn
>>>>>>>>>> ----- Original Message -----
>>>>>>>>>> From: "Milan Zamazal" <pdm at zamazal.org>
>>>>>>>>>> To: <speakup at linux-speakup.org>
>>>>>>>>>> Cc: <Blinux-list at redhat.com>
>>>>>>>>>> Sent: Saturday, August 13, 2022 12:08 PM
>>>>>>>>>> Subject: Re: "Accessibility in Fedora Workstation" (fwd)
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> "KL" == Karen Lewellen
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> <klewellen at shellworld.net>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> writes:
>>>>>>>>>> KL> What bothers me most are his lack of actual
>>>>>>>>>> qualifications,
>>>>>>>>>> and
>>>>>>>>>> KL> absolute dismissal of what he has not experienced..as
>>>>>>>>>> if
>>>>>>>>>> KL> he
>>>>>>>>>> KL> defines Linux usage for everyone. That attitude is
>>>>>>>>>> KL> dangerous,
>>>>>>>>>> KL> because he is educating those outside of the
>>>>>>>>>> KL> accessibility
>>>>>>>>>> KL> experiences, who will believe his ignorance is
>>>>>>>>>> factual.
>>>>>>>>>> KL> he
>>>>>>>>>> has
>>>>>>>>>> KL> to be expert, it is his job.
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> Hi Karen,
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> I know Lukas personally and I admire his skills and
>>>>>>>>>> qualifications.
>>>>>>>>>> I
>>>>>>>>>> also know first hand that he is open to constructive
>>>>>>>>>> feedback and
>>>>>>>>>> I
>>>>>>>>>> believe he???Td be happy to be corrected about possible
>>>>>>>>>> technical
>>>>>>>>>> inaccuracies in the interview. It may be also a good
>>>>>>>>>> opportunity
>>>>>>>>>> to
>>>>>>>>>> find out what???Ts possibly missing in making anybody
>>>>>>>>>> better
>>>>>>>>>> informed.
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> As for ???oabsolute dismissal of what he has not
>>>>>>>>>> experienced?????,
>>>>>>>>>> what
>>>>>>>>>> reasonable free software alternatives to a less or more
>>>>>>>>>> standard
>>>>>>>>>> desktop
>>>>>>>>>> with Orca and a software synthesizer can you see for a
>>>>>>>>>> common
>>>>>>>>>> blind
>>>>>>>>>> user
>>>>>>>>>> who needs to use a fully working web browser, to read and
>>>>>>>>>> process
>>>>>>>>>> text
>>>>>>>>>> documents, to be compatible with other computer users,
>>>>>>>>>> etc.?
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> And let???Ts be realistic. We celebrate every single
>>>>>>>>>> developer
>>>>>>>>>> hired
>>>>>>>>>> to
>>>>>>>>>> improve accessibility. This tells something about the
>>>>>>>>>> state of
>>>>>>>>>> the
>>>>>>>>>> matters. We cannot expect that a single person will fix
>>>>>>>>>> all the
>>>>>>>>>> kinds
>>>>>>>>>> of accessibility problems in all the environments. Lukas
>>>>>>>>>> works at
>>>>>>>>>> his
>>>>>>>>>> job focusing on certain areas currently seen there as
>>>>>>>>>> urgent ones
>>>>>>>>>> and I
>>>>>>>>>> appreciate this opportunity. Anybody else seeing a need
>>>>>>>>>> to
>>>>>>>>>> work
>>>>>>>>>> on
>>>>>>>>>> other areas is welcome to contribute to whatever sees
>>>>>>>>>> fit,
>>>>>>>>>> as I
>>>>>>>>>> do.
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> Regards,
>>>>>>>>>> Milan
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>
>>
>>
>
>
>
^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 78+ messages in thread
* "Accessibility in Fedora Workstation" (fwd)
` blinux-list
@ ` blinux-list
0 siblings, 0 replies; 78+ messages in thread
From: blinux-list @ UTC (permalink / raw)
Fedora Workstation does ship with Orca, as does Fedora MATE Compiz,
which is my chosen spin.
https://getfedora.org/
will get you to the website to download the Workstation spin, and can
also get you to the other spins as well.
~Kyle
^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 78+ messages in thread
* "Accessibility in Fedora Workstation" (fwd)
` blinux-list
@ ` blinux-list
` blinux-list
0 siblings, 1 reply; 78+ messages in thread
From: blinux-list @ UTC (permalink / raw)
Good morning everyone I have a basic question regarding this distribution.
Does orca come with it, or is it something that must be incorporated after
installation? If orca does come with the distribution meeting is a part of
it. What is the download link for the ISO image?
I currently have Ubuntu in a virtual machine on my MacBook Pro. I know I'm
writing this on a Windows PC but that's because there is no effective
dictation software for the Mac at present time. Dragon on the Windows
machine is it.
Unfortunately my last use of my Ubuntu distribution meeting already set up
with orca installed etc. was six months ago. Because I'm needing to get back
into using Lennix for some things I've decided it's time to start making
certain I know how to do this by practicing.
I do have something Lennix like on the PC it's the Microsoft shell
implementation. Of Ubuntu in a shell better known as Wsl.
In closing, I used to use Fedora many years ago when I was friends with one
of the principal people involved in the Speakup project. Unfortunately some
of you may know that that person passed away some years ago "the late
William F Acker" this thread is of some interest to me because I kinda would
like to get back to using Fedora. Rather than Ubuntu.
I look forward to reading everyone's comments. Please be aware that the
above has been dictated. So there may in fact be unwanted mistakes. No
matter what platform one uses, dictation software will never get what is
said absolutely correctly. So if there's something you really truly don't
understand, please reach out to me and asked me what did I really mean.
Finally, if people wish to correspond directly with me off this list, please
send all email to the email address that I read the most. That is
maurice at maurice-amines.com.
-----Original Message-----
From: Blinux-list <blinux-list-bounces at redhat.com> On Behalf Of Linux for
blind general discussion
Sent: Wednesday, August 17, 2022 12:26 AM
To: Linux for blind general discussion <blinux-list at redhat.com>
Subject: Re: "Accessibility in Fedora Workstation" (fwd)
In orca in a terminal environment I can use vi variants other than elvis by
use of the -e option. That -e option turns what would be a screen-oriented
editor into a line-oriented editor. Once that happens I can confidently
know I'll be working with smaller objects than the entire screen. When I
used dos professionally my go to tool for editing was edlin and not edit. I
can and do use emacs but not to the level the experts with emacs do.
Jude <jdashiel at panix dot com> .
On Wed, 17 Aug 2022, Linux for blind general discussion wrote:
> Let me chime in here from the opposition point of view.
>
> Having used both the paid screen readers (JAWS and also GwMicro) and many
of the free screen readers, The paid ones may have more features and are
probably tuned a bit more closely to work in a specified OS, but the free
ones often times offer more latitude when dealing with non-standard content.
>
> Now, some other considerations, not all computer systems can handle a full
GUI (case in point: the RaspberryPi 3 series of which I have 1). So, the use
of a console there is a must and I use several of the console available
screen readers, Like BrltTY, Emacsspeak, Speakup and others). There are
times when this is very useful when the full GUI might present some issues.
>
> Now, this doesn?t mean I haven?t stopped using full GUI interfaces. I
have, for the most part, stuck with either JAWS or NVDA on windows (what one
can?t read, the other might), Voiceover on OS X and any of the half dozen or
so screen readers available in Linux (ORCA being the primary for GUI and
anything else for console as needed). Each has their flaws and each has
their strengths and it doesn?t hurt to know them all. Believe me, try using
VI or NANO in a terminal with ORCA. It doesn?t work very well. However, the
others work very well there, but not so well inside the GUI. It all depends
on what you need to do. It?s called using the right tool for the right job.
>
> -Eric
> From the Central Offices of the Technomage Guild, Tool Maintenance Dept.
>
>
> > On Aug 16, 2022, at 11:26 AM, Linux for blind general discussion
<blinux-list at redhat.com> wrote:
> >
> > Actually, I'd like to know where you got the idea that it's just a
rumor. It is not. I was personally involved at the time, arguing strenuously
against the policy. I can give you names of people at the NFB who backed the
policy if you'd like.
> >
> > The NFB's reasoning was that a free screen reader would not be as good
as one you had to pay for. They reasoned that Microsoft had little
motivation to keep on improving their screen reader but it might be enough
to drive Freedom Scientific out of business. As a Linux user, I felt that
reasoning was flawed mainly because I felt free, open source screen readers
were right around the corner anyway. I believe I was using Speakup and
something called Nupernicus on Linux at the time.
> >
> > This is absolutely not a rumor.
> >
> >
> > On 8/16/22 12:31, K0LNY_Glenn wrote:
> >> That is hear-say, an old rumor that has been recycled countless times.
> >> Glenn
> >> ----- Original Message -----
> >> From: "John G. Heim" <jheim at wisc.edu>
> >> To: "K0LNY_Glenn" <glenn at ervin.email>; "Butch Bussen"
> >> <butchb at shellworld.net>; "Karen Lewellen"
> >> <klewellen at shellworld.net>
> >> Cc: <speakup at linux-speakup.org>; "Milan Zamazal" <pdm at zamazal.org>;
> >> <Blinux-list at redhat.com>
> >> Sent: Tuesday, August 16, 2022 11:49 AM
> >> Subject: Re: "Accessibility in Fedora Workstation" (fwd)
> >>
> >>
> >> Holy cow! Are you aware that the NFB once asked Microsoft to *NOT*
> >> improve Narrator to the point where it would compete with Jaws? If
> >> you think the NFB is incapable of forcing choices on people, you
> >> are very sadly mistaken.
> >>
> >>
> >>
> >> On 8/16/22 09:36, K0LNY_Glenn wrote:
> >>> This sort of thing would never happen in Nebraska, or any state
> >>> where the agency staff is of the NFB philosophy.
> >>> Say what you want about the NFB, no organization is without its
> >>> problems, but it is the core philosophy that formed the NFB that
> >>> knows that society has low expectations of the Blind, and this is
> >>> why the NFB believes in skills and high expectations.
> >>> And with that, comes giving respect to the Blind, like the respect
> >>> of choice.
> >>> Yeah I know about the information of recent about NFB abuse, but
> >>> this is organizational issues, unrelated to the philosophy. In
> >>> fact, the fact that it has come up demonstrates that the NFB is no
> >>> different than any other organization in interpersonal staff
> >>> issues.
> >>> And choice does not mean training center choices.
> >>> Choice isn't always an option, just like if you took a vocational
> >>> course in college, there are things you have to take, so to me,
> >>> the lack of choice in this regard is different than computer
> >>> software, where all the choices will reach the same end result.
> >>> In states where the NFB philosophy is embraced, if a client said I
> >>> want to use a Mac, or I want Window Eyes, then that is what they
> >>> would get, no questions asked.
> >>> They would not have to fight to get it.
> >>> I simply cannot imagine a counselor saying that someone has to use
> >>> the software that the counselor wants them to have.
> >>> When I hear that stuff, I almost cannot believe it, but I know
> >>> Butch well enough to know he wouldn't make that up.
> >>>
> >>> Glenn
> >>> ----- Original Message -----
> >>> From: "Butch Bussen" <butchb at shellworld.net>
> >>> To: "Karen Lewellen" <klewellen at shellworld.net>
> >>> Cc: "K0LNY_Glenn" <glenn at ervin.email>;
> >>> <speakup at linux-speakup.org>; "Milan Zamazal" <pdm at zamazal.org>;
> >>> <Blinux-list at redhat.com>
> >>> Sent: Tuesday, August 16, 2022 8:18 AM
> >>> Subject: Re: "Accessibility in Fedora Workstation" (fwd)
> >>>
> >>>
> >>> You are right. In Nevada, freedom pushed jaws to the rehab people
> >>> and took them out for steak diners and so forth. I fought like
> >>> hell to get them to buy window-eyes.
> >>> 73
> >>> Butch
> >>> WA0VJR
> >>> Node 3148
> >>> Wallace, ks.
> >>>
> >>>
> >>> On Sun, 14 Aug 2022, Karen Lewellen wrote:
> >>>
> >>>> And where do these employers learn about jaws?
> >>>> In fact, provide if you do not mind an example of how this works
> >>>> exactly.
> >>>> after all, unless I am incorrect, these employers are not
> >>>> personal Jaws users, meaning someone they trust continues to sell
> >>>> them on an expensive program instead of a largely free one.
> >>>>
> >>>>
> >>>>
> >>>> On Sat, 13 Aug 2022, K0LNY_Glenn wrote:
> >>>>
> >>>>> Karen,
> >>>>> Most employers don't want NVDA, and will only allow Jaws.
> >>>>> In Nebraska, if an employer said put on whatever works, the
counselors
> >>>>> will
> >>>>> use NVDA, because of the cost of Jaws.
> >>>>> If some of the clients in a call center already use Jaws, but
> >>>>> don't know
> >>>>> NVDA, the counselor will use Jaws, because the other clients
> >>>>> will need to
> >>>>> learn one of the two.
> >>>>> So it's all choice, but in the workplace, it depends on what
> >>>>> the employer
> >>>>> will allow.
> >>>>> Also, sometimes scripts need to be made, and there are more
> >>>>> Jaws scripters
> >>>>> available than there are NVDA add-on writers.
> >>>>> So this perception that Jaws is forced by rehab, from my 31
> >>>>> years in the
> >>>>> business I can say is rubbish.
> >>>>> Now, if a counselor did not know how to use NVDA, and either may
be
> >>>>> chosen,
> >>>>> the rehab counselor is able to select the one that the
> >>>>> counselor feels is
> >>>>> best for the student and for the counselor's teaching.
> >>>>> When it comes to part B moneys, which is used for non-vocational
> >>>>> purchases,
> >>>>> where a lot of Jaws purchases come from, it is in the agency's
best
> >>>>> interest
> >>>>> to spend as little as possible, because that doesn't come back
like VR
> >>>>> expenditures do.
> >>>>> Glenn
> >>>>>
> >>>>> ----- Original Message -----
> >>>>> From: "Karen Lewellen" <klewellen at shellworld.net>
> >>>>> To: "K0LNY_Glenn" <glenn at ervin.email>
> >>>>> Cc: <speakup at linux-speakup.org>; "Milan Zamazal"
<pdm at zamazal.org>;
> >>>>> <Blinux-list at redhat.com>
> >>>>> Sent: Saturday, August 13, 2022 6:15 PM
> >>>>> Subject: Re: "Accessibility in Fedora Workstation" (fwd)
> >>>>>
> >>>>>
> >>>>> The challenge with that example is that, as one often gets
> >>>>> reminded, the
> >>>>> rehab systems track record for facilitating employment for
> >>>>> their clients
> >>>>> is quite poor.
> >>>>> With a high percentage of unemployment among our clients. Making,
> >>>>> speaking personally, your buying Jaws for personal use not really
> >>>>> reflecting how the system would respond to an alternative request.
> >>>>> Now if someone from organized rehab said, okay freedom
> >>>>> scientific, we are
> >>>>> creating an employment program where our clients will train in
Linux,
> >>>>> needing a solid screen reader solution for the system. We
> >>>>> will give you
> >>>>> an
> >>>>> exclusive development contract for s millions to create the tool.
> >>>>> Fs would likely say where do we sign?
> >>>>>
> >>>>>
> >>>>>
> >>>>> On Sat, 13 Aug 2022, K0LNY_Glenn wrote:
> >>>>>
> >>>>>> True enough, but largely, rehab people typically use Windows at
work,
> >>>>>> and
> >>>>>> probably at home, but they need to cater to the needs of the
client.
> >>>>>> If a client used Linux, I doubt that any rehab counselor
> >>>>>> would advocate
> >>>>>> that
> >>>>>> the client switch to Windows, unless that was needed for a
> >>>>>> specific job.
> >>>>>> In Nebraska, we purchased Jaws much more for personal use than we
did
> >>>>>> for
> >>>>>> work related situations.
> >>>>>> So if FS made a JFL, and people were using Linux, rehab would
indeed
> >>>>>> purchase a JFL product.
> >>>>>> Glenn
> >>>>>> ----- Original Message -----
> >>>>>> From: "Karen Lewellen" <klewellen at shellworld.net>
> >>>>>> To: "K0LNY_Glenn" <glenn at ervin.email>
> >>>>>> Cc: <speakup at linux-speakup.org>; "Milan Zamazal"
<pdm at zamazal.org>;
> >>>>>> <Blinux-list at redhat.com>
> >>>>>> Sent: Saturday, August 13, 2022 3:01 PM
> >>>>>> Subject: Re: "Accessibility in Fedora Workstation" (fwd)
> >>>>>>
> >>>>>>
> >>>>>> there was an interesting discussion a month or so back on the
blinux
> >>>>>> list
> >>>>>> about how long it took completing tasks in the gui as apposed to
say
> >>>>>> command line, the comments were quite informative.
> >>>>>> Still, fs has never marketed largely to the end user. Instead
they
> >>>>>> market
> >>>>>> to the American rehab community.
> >>>>>> how much market research has the rehab community done to support
the
> >>>>>> need
> >>>>>> for choices?
> >>>>>> How many rehab counselors support training in Linux?
> >>>>>> one comment made by the subject of this thread about poor
> >>>>>> quality speech
> >>>>>> is a fine one...out of the box Linux has few speech choices.
> >>>>>> everyone
> >>>>>> brings their needs to the table there.
> >>>>>>
> >>>>>> if you want to get fs to care about Linux, you need to prove
> >>>>>> there is
> >>>>>> money for them there, from their main source of income.
> >>>>>>
> >>>>>>
> >>>>>>
> >>>>>> On Sat, 13 Aug 2022, K0LNY_Glenn wrote:
> >>>>>>
> >>>>>>> Well since Orca seems to work on so many distros, I don't
> >>>>>>> know why FS
> >>>>>>> would
> >>>>>>> not be able to do the same.
> >>>>>>> If Jaws users could switch into Linux, it would be a real game
> >>>>>>> changer,
> >>>>>>> and
> >>>>>>> I think with lots more Blind Linux users, we would start seeing
> >>>>>>> accessibility in Linux not being a second thought.
> >>>>>>> Glenn
> >>>>>>> ----- Original Message -----
> >>>>>>> From: "Karen Lewellen" <klewellen at shellworld.net>
> >>>>>>> To: "K0LNY_Glenn" <glenn at ervin.email>
> >>>>>>> Cc: <speakup at linux-speakup.org>; "Milan Zamazal"
<pdm at zamazal.org>;
> >>>>>>> <Blinux-list at redhat.com>
> >>>>>>> Sent: Saturday, August 13, 2022 1:47 PM
> >>>>>>> Subject: Re: "Accessibility in Fedora Workstation" (fwd)
> >>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>
> >>>>>>> Well technically freedom scientific does not exist any longer,
being
> >>>>>>> bought
> >>>>>>> by another company.
> >>>>>>> Still, I can respect why they, or nvda have not created their
tools
> >>>>>>> for
> >>>>>>> Linux.
> >>>>>>> That is because as I understand it, Linux is quite like
> >>>>>>> clay. You can
> >>>>>>> mold a distribution into almost anything. there are various
> >>>>>>> personifications of the system, all sorts of ways and changes
and
> >>>>>>> options
> >>>>>>> for creativity.
> >>>>>>> however adaptive tools are often extensions of physical
> >>>>>>> characteristics,
> >>>>>>> hands, eyes, ears, brains, combinations of these.
> >>>>>>> To build solid assistive tools one must have a solid
> >>>>>>> foundation as it
> >>>>>>> were. that is part of why there have needed to be so few Apple
> >>>>>>> efforts
> >>>>>>> at
> >>>>>>> inclusion, they created with, and then created in-house
adaptive
> >>>>>>> tools
> >>>>>>> for various populations that were built into the system.
> >>>>>>> Although Microsoft did not bother until much later, in theory at
> >>>>>>> least,
> >>>>>>> the
> >>>>>>> consistency of windows is what makes it possible for freedom or
the
> >>>>>>> former
> >>>>>>> gw micro or nvda to create something that can in theory work.
> >>>>>>> Floor for the furniture is somewhat solid.
> >>>>>>> Just my thoughts,
> >>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>
> >>>>>>> On Sat, 13 Aug 2022, K0LNY_Glenn wrote:
> >>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>> I would like to see Freedom Scientific make a Jaws For Linux.
> >>>>>>>> JFL
> >>>>>>>> I'd certainly pay the yearly rental fee for it, and it would
bring
> >>>>>>>> many
> >>>>>>>> more
> >>>>>>>> users into Linux.
> >>>>>>>> FS could, with its resources, possibly make it more robust than
> >>>>>>>> Orca.
> >>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>> Glenn
> >>>>>>>> ----- Original Message -----
> >>>>>>>> From: "Milan Zamazal" <pdm at zamazal.org>
> >>>>>>>> To: <speakup at linux-speakup.org>
> >>>>>>>> Cc: <Blinux-list at redhat.com>
> >>>>>>>> Sent: Saturday, August 13, 2022 12:08 PM
> >>>>>>>> Subject: Re: "Accessibility in Fedora Workstation" (fwd)
> >>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>>>>> "KL" == Karen Lewellen <klewellen at shellworld.net>
> >>>>>>>>>>>>> writes:
> >>>>>>>> KL> What bothers me most are his lack of actual
> >>>>>>>> KL> qualifications,
> >>>>>>>> and
> >>>>>>>> KL> absolute dismissal of what he has not experienced..as if
> >>>>>>>> KL> he defines Linux usage for everyone. That attitude is
> >>>>>>>> KL> dangerous, because he is educating those outside of the
> >>>>>>>> KL> accessibility experiences, who will believe his
> >>>>>>>> KL> ignorance is factual. he
> >>>>>>>> has
> >>>>>>>> KL> to be expert, it is his job.
> >>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>> Hi Karen,
> >>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>> I know Lukas personally and I admire his skills and
> >>>>>>>> qualifications.
> >>>>>>>> I
> >>>>>>>> also know first hand that he is open to constructive
> >>>>>>>> feedback and I
> >>>>>>>> believe he??Td be happy to be corrected about possible
technical
> >>>>>>>> inaccuracies in the interview. It may be also a good
> >>>>>>>> opportunity to
> >>>>>>>> find out what??Ts possibly missing in making anybody better
> >>>>>>>> informed.
> >>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>> As for ??oabsolute dismissal of what he has not
> >>>>>>>> experienced???, what
> >>>>>>>> reasonable free software alternatives to a less or more
standard
> >>>>>>>> desktop
> >>>>>>>> with Orca and a software synthesizer can you see for a
> >>>>>>>> common blind
> >>>>>>>> user
> >>>>>>>> who needs to use a fully working web browser, to read and
process
> >>>>>>>> text
> >>>>>>>> documents, to be compatible with other computer users, etc.?
> >>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>> And let??Ts be realistic. We celebrate every single
> >>>>>>>> developer hired
> >>>>>>>> to
> >>>>>>>> improve accessibility. This tells something about the
> >>>>>>>> state of the
> >>>>>>>> matters. We cannot expect that a single person will fix all
the
> >>>>>>>> kinds
> >>>>>>>> of accessibility problems in all the environments. Lukas works
at
> >>>>>>>> his
> >>>>>>>> job focusing on certain areas currently seen there as urgent
ones
> >>>>>>>> and I
> >>>>>>>> appreciate this opportunity. Anybody else seeing a need to
> >>>>>>>> work on
> >>>>>>>> other areas is welcome to contribute to whatever sees fit,
> >>>>>>>> as I do.
> >>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>> Regards,
> >>>>>>>> Milan
> >>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>
> >>
> >
> > _______________________________________________
> > Blinux-list mailing list
> > Blinux-list at redhat.com
> > https://listman.redhat.com/mailman/listinfo/blinux-list
>
> _______________________________________________
> Blinux-list mailing list
> Blinux-list at redhat.com
> https://listman.redhat.com/mailman/listinfo/blinux-list
>
_______________________________________________
Blinux-list mailing list
Blinux-list at redhat.com
https://listman.redhat.com/mailman/listinfo/blinux-list
^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 78+ messages in thread
* "Accessibility in Fedora Workstation" (fwd)
[not found] ` <003101d8b255$9973b150$80ffa8c0@Win7VM>
` blinux-list
@ ` blinux-list
[not found] ` <Pine.LNX.4.64.2208171234210.1354666@server2.shellworld.net>
2 siblings, 0 replies; 78+ messages in thread
From: blinux-list @ UTC (permalink / raw)
Well, I am hesitant to mention anything other than screen readers on
this list. But this whole thing started when someone attributed success
in his home state to the NFB philosophy. But the NFB philosophy is
meaningless.? It can be used to justify anything and it therefore means
nothing. It can just as easily be used to blame blind people for their
problems as it can be used to empower them. In the past 30 years that
I've been associated with the NFB, it has done far more harm than good.
We would all be better off without it.
The NFB should start acting more like a normal advocacy group and less
like a cult. It would do a better job of representing blind people if it
did.
On 8/17/22 11:22, K0LNY_Glenn wrote:
> Yeah, I had been to a state NFBN convention that year and did the PAC thing.
> Then when the NFB did that, I called up the state treasurer for the NFBN and
> cancelled my PAC plan.
> I told them that they don't care if I can read my money, then they don't
> need any from me.
> Glenn
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: "Karen Lewellen" <klewellen at shellworld.net>
> To: "Butch Bussen" <butchb at shellworld.net>
> Cc: "John G. Heim" <jheim at wisc.edu>; "K0LNY_Glenn" <glenn at ervin.email>;
> <speakup at linux-speakup.org>; "Milan Zamazal" <pdm at zamazal.org>;
> <Blinux-list at redhat.com>
> Sent: Wednesday, August 17, 2022 11:18 AM
> Subject: Re: "Accessibility in Fedora Workstation" (fwd)
>
>
> My personal favorite is the rejection of money that could be identified
> by touch. never mind that for honestly thousands of years the practice has
> been common so those with limited education could still engage in commerce.
>
>
>
> On Wed, 17 Aug 2022, Butch Bussen wrote:
>
>> Yes, I remember that. And what about their oposition to descriptive
>> video,
>> even filed a law sute to get the law thrown out, which it was at that
>> time.
>> 73
>> Butch
>> WA0VJR
>> Node 3148
>> Wallace, ks.
>>
>>
>> On Tue, 16 Aug 2022, John G. Heim wrote:
>>
>>> Holy cow! Are you aware that the NFB once asked Microsoft to *NOT*
>>> improve
>>> Narrator to the point where it would compete with Jaws? If you think the
>>> NFB is incapable of forcing choices on people, you are very sadly
>>> mistaken.
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> On 8/16/22 09:36, K0LNY_Glenn wrote:
>>>> This sort of thing would never happen in Nebraska, or any state where
>>>> the
>>>> agency staff is of the NFB philosophy.
>>>> Say what you want about the NFB, no organization is without its
>>>> problems,
>>>> but it is the core philosophy that formed the NFB that knows that
>>>> society
>>>> has low expectations of the Blind, and this is why the NFB believes
>>>> in
>>>> skills and high expectations.
>>>> And with that, comes giving respect to the Blind, like the respect of
>>>> choice.
>>>> Yeah I know about the information of recent about NFB abuse, but this
>>>> is
>>>> organizational issues, unrelated to the philosophy. In fact, the
>>>> fact
>>>> that
>>>> it has come up demonstrates that the NFB is no different than any
>>>> other
>>>> organization in interpersonal staff issues.
>>>> And choice does not mean training center choices.
>>>> Choice isn't always an option, just like if you took a vocational
>>>> course
>>>> in
>>>> college, there are things you have to take, so to me, the lack of
>>>> choice
>>>> in
>>>> this regard is different than computer software, where all the
>>>> choices
>>>> will
>>>> reach the same end result.
>>>> In states where the NFB philosophy is embraced, if a client said I
>>>> want
>>>> to
>>>> use a Mac, or I want Window Eyes, then that is what they would get,
>>>> no
>>>> questions asked.
>>>> They would not have to fight to get it.
>>>> I simply cannot imagine a counselor saying that someone has to use
>>>> the
>>>> software that the counselor wants them to have.
>>>> When I hear that stuff, I almost cannot believe it, but I know Butch
>>>> well
>>>> enough to know he wouldn't make that up.
>>>>
>>>> Glenn
>>>> ----- Original Message -----
>>>> From: "Butch Bussen" <butchb at shellworld.net>
>>>> To: "Karen Lewellen" <klewellen at shellworld.net>
>>>> Cc: "K0LNY_Glenn" <glenn at ervin.email>; <speakup at linux-speakup.org>;
>>>> "Milan
>>>> Zamazal" <pdm at zamazal.org>; <Blinux-list at redhat.com>
>>>> Sent: Tuesday, August 16, 2022 8:18 AM
>>>> Subject: Re: "Accessibility in Fedora Workstation" (fwd)
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> You are right. In Nevada, freedom pushed jaws to the rehab people
>>>> and
>>>> took them out for steak diners and so forth. I fought like hell to
>>>> get
>>>> them to buy window-eyes.
>>>> 73
>>>> Butch
>>>> WA0VJR
>>>> Node 3148
>>>> Wallace, ks.
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> On Sun, 14 Aug 2022, Karen Lewellen wrote:
>>>>
>>>>> And where do these employers learn about jaws?
>>>>> In fact, provide if you do not mind an example of how this works
>>>>> exactly.
>>>>> after all, unless I am incorrect, these employers are not personal
>>>>> Jaws
>>>>> users, meaning someone they trust continues to sell them on an
>>>>> expensive
>>>>> program instead of a largely free one.
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> On Sat, 13 Aug 2022, K0LNY_Glenn wrote:
>>>>>
>>>>>> Karen,
>>>>>> Most employers don't want NVDA, and will only allow Jaws.
>>>>>> In Nebraska, if an employer said put on whatever works, the
>>>>>> counselors
>>>>>> will
>>>>>> use NVDA, because of the cost of Jaws.
>>>>>> If some of the clients in a call center already use Jaws, but
>>>>>> don't know
>>>>>> NVDA, the counselor will use Jaws, because the other clients
>>>>>> will
>>>>>> need
>>>>>> to
>>>>>> learn one of the two.
>>>>>> So it's all choice, but in the workplace, it depends on what
>>>>>> the
>>>>>> employer
>>>>>> will allow.
>>>>>> Also, sometimes scripts need to be made, and there are more
>>>>>> Jaws
>>>>>> scripters
>>>>>> available than there are NVDA add-on writers.
>>>>>> So this perception that Jaws is forced by rehab, from my 31
>>>>>> years
>>>>>> in the
>>>>>> business I can say is rubbish.
>>>>>> Now, if a counselor did not know how to use NVDA, and either
>>>>>> may
>>>>>> be
>>>>>> chosen,
>>>>>> the rehab counselor is able to select the one that the
>>>>>> counselor
>>>>>> feels
>>>>>> is
>>>>>> best for the student and for the counselor's teaching.
>>>>>> When it comes to part B moneys, which is used for
>>>>>> non-vocational
>>>>>> purchases,
>>>>>> where a lot of Jaws purchases come from, it is in the agency's
>>>>>> best
>>>>>> interest
>>>>>> to spend as little as possible, because that doesn't come back
>>>>>> like VR
>>>>>> expenditures do.
>>>>>> Glenn
>>>>>>
>>>>>> ----- Original Message -----
>>>>>> From: "Karen Lewellen" <klewellen at shellworld.net>
>>>>>> To: "K0LNY_Glenn" <glenn at ervin.email>
>>>>>> Cc: <speakup at linux-speakup.org>; "Milan Zamazal"
>>>>>> <pdm at zamazal.org>;
>>>>>> <Blinux-list at redhat.com>
>>>>>> Sent: Saturday, August 13, 2022 6:15 PM
>>>>>> Subject: Re: "Accessibility in Fedora Workstation" (fwd)
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>> The challenge with that example is that, as one often gets
>>>>>> reminded,
>>>>>> the
>>>>>> rehab systems track record for facilitating employment for
>>>>>> their
>>>>>> clients
>>>>>> is quite poor.
>>>>>> With a high percentage of unemployment among our clients.
>>>>>> Making,
>>>>>> speaking personally, your buying Jaws for personal use not
>>>>>> really
>>>>>> reflecting how the system would respond to an alternative
>>>>>> request.
>>>>>> Now if someone from organized rehab said, okay freedom
>>>>>> scientific, we
>>>>>> are
>>>>>> creating an employment program where our clients will train in
>>>>>> Linux,
>>>>>> needing a solid screen reader solution for the system. We will
>>>>>> give you
>>>>>> an
>>>>>> exclusive development contract for s millions to create the
>>>>>> tool.
>>>>>> Fs would likely say where do we sign?
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>> On Sat, 13 Aug 2022, K0LNY_Glenn wrote:
>>>>>>
>>>>>>> True enough, but largely, rehab people typically use Windows
>>>>>>> at
>>>>>>> work,
>>>>>>> and
>>>>>>> probably at home, but they need to cater to the needs of the
>>>>>>> client.
>>>>>>> If a client used Linux, I doubt that any rehab counselor
>>>>>>> would
>>>>>>> advocate
>>>>>>> that
>>>>>>> the client switch to Windows, unless that was needed for a
>>>>>>> specific
>>>>>>> job.
>>>>>>> In Nebraska, we purchased Jaws much more for personal use
>>>>>>> than
>>>>>>> we did
>>>>>>> for
>>>>>>> work related situations.
>>>>>>> So if FS made a JFL, and people were using Linux, rehab would
>>>>>>> indeed
>>>>>>> purchase a JFL product.
>>>>>>> Glenn
>>>>>>> ----- Original Message -----
>>>>>>> From: "Karen Lewellen" <klewellen at shellworld.net>
>>>>>>> To: "K0LNY_Glenn" <glenn at ervin.email>
>>>>>>> Cc: <speakup at linux-speakup.org>; "Milan Zamazal"
>>>>>>> <pdm at zamazal.org>;
>>>>>>> <Blinux-list at redhat.com>
>>>>>>> Sent: Saturday, August 13, 2022 3:01 PM
>>>>>>> Subject: Re: "Accessibility in Fedora Workstation" (fwd)
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> there was an interesting discussion a month or so back on the
>>>>>>> blinux
>>>>>>> list
>>>>>>> about how long it took completing tasks in the gui as apposed
>>>>>>> to say
>>>>>>> command line, the comments were quite informative.
>>>>>>> Still, fs has never marketed largely to the end user. Instead
>>>>>>> they
>>>>>>> market
>>>>>>> to the American rehab community.
>>>>>>> how much market research has the rehab community done to
>>>>>>> support the
>>>>>>> need
>>>>>>> for choices?
>>>>>>> How many rehab counselors support training in Linux?
>>>>>>> one comment made by the subject of this thread about poor
>>>>>>> quality
>>>>>>> speech
>>>>>>> is a fine one...out of the box Linux has few speech choices.
>>>>>>> everyone
>>>>>>> brings their needs to the table there.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> if you want to get fs to care about Linux, you need to prove
>>>>>>> there is
>>>>>>> money for them there, from their main source of income.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> On Sat, 13 Aug 2022, K0LNY_Glenn wrote:
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> Well since Orca seems to work on so many distros, I don't
>>>>>>>> know why
>>>>>>>> FS
>>>>>>>> would
>>>>>>>> not be able to do the same.
>>>>>>>> If Jaws users could switch into Linux, it would be a real
>>>>>>>> game
>>>>>>>> changer,
>>>>>>>> and
>>>>>>>> I think with lots more Blind Linux users, we would start
>>>>>>>> seeing
>>>>>>>> accessibility in Linux not being a second thought.
>>>>>>>> Glenn
>>>>>>>> ----- Original Message -----
>>>>>>>> From: "Karen Lewellen" <klewellen at shellworld.net>
>>>>>>>> To: "K0LNY_Glenn" <glenn at ervin.email>
>>>>>>>> Cc: <speakup at linux-speakup.org>; "Milan Zamazal"
>>>>>>>> <pdm at zamazal.org>;
>>>>>>>> <Blinux-list at redhat.com>
>>>>>>>> Sent: Saturday, August 13, 2022 1:47 PM
>>>>>>>> Subject: Re: "Accessibility in Fedora Workstation" (fwd)
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> Well technically freedom scientific does not exist any
>>>>>>>> longer, being
>>>>>>>> bought
>>>>>>>> by another company.
>>>>>>>> Still, I can respect why they, or nvda have not created
>>>>>>>> their
>>>>>>>> tools
>>>>>>>> for
>>>>>>>> Linux.
>>>>>>>> That is because as I understand it, Linux is quite like
>>>>>>>> clay. You
>>>>>>>> can
>>>>>>>> mold a distribution into almost anything. there are various
>>>>>>>> personifications of the system, all sorts of ways and
>>>>>>>> changes
>>>>>>>> and
>>>>>>>> options
>>>>>>>> for creativity.
>>>>>>>> however adaptive tools are often extensions of physical
>>>>>>>> characteristics,
>>>>>>>> hands, eyes, ears, brains, combinations of these.
>>>>>>>> To build solid assistive tools one must have a solid
>>>>>>>> foundation as
>>>>>>>> it
>>>>>>>> were. that is part of why there have needed to be so few
>>>>>>>> Apple
>>>>>>>> efforts
>>>>>>>> at
>>>>>>>> inclusion, they created with, and then created in-house
>>>>>>>> adaptive
>>>>>>>> tools
>>>>>>>> for various populations that were built into the system.
>>>>>>>> Although Microsoft did not bother until much later, in
>>>>>>>> theory
>>>>>>>> at
>>>>>>>> least,
>>>>>>>> the
>>>>>>>> consistency of windows is what makes it possible for
>>>>>>>> freedom
>>>>>>>> or the
>>>>>>>> former
>>>>>>>> gw micro or nvda to create something that can in theory
>>>>>>>> work.
>>>>>>>> Floor for the furniture is somewhat solid.
>>>>>>>> Just my thoughts,
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> On Sat, 13 Aug 2022, K0LNY_Glenn wrote:
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> I would like to see Freedom Scientific make a Jaws For
>>>>>>>>> Linux.
>>>>>>>>> JFL
>>>>>>>>> I'd certainly pay the yearly rental fee for it, and it
>>>>>>>>> would bring
>>>>>>>>> many
>>>>>>>>> more
>>>>>>>>> users into Linux.
>>>>>>>>> FS could, with its resources, possibly make it more
>>>>>>>>> robust
>>>>>>>>> than
>>>>>>>>> Orca.
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> Glenn
>>>>>>>>> ----- Original Message -----
>>>>>>>>> From: "Milan Zamazal" <pdm at zamazal.org>
>>>>>>>>> To: <speakup at linux-speakup.org>
>>>>>>>>> Cc: <Blinux-list at redhat.com>
>>>>>>>>> Sent: Saturday, August 13, 2022 12:08 PM
>>>>>>>>> Subject: Re: "Accessibility in Fedora Workstation" (fwd)
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> "KL" == Karen Lewellen
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> <klewellen at shellworld.net>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> writes:
>>>>>>>>> KL> What bothers me most are his lack of actual
>>>>>>>>> qualifications,
>>>>>>>>> and
>>>>>>>>> KL> absolute dismissal of what he has not experienced..as
>>>>>>>>> if
>>>>>>>>> KL> he
>>>>>>>>> KL> defines Linux usage for everyone. That attitude is
>>>>>>>>> KL> dangerous,
>>>>>>>>> KL> because he is educating those outside of the
>>>>>>>>> KL> accessibility
>>>>>>>>> KL> experiences, who will believe his ignorance is
>>>>>>>>> factual.
>>>>>>>>> KL> he
>>>>>>>>> has
>>>>>>>>> KL> to be expert, it is his job.
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> Hi Karen,
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> I know Lukas personally and I admire his skills and
>>>>>>>>> qualifications.
>>>>>>>>> I
>>>>>>>>> also know first hand that he is open to constructive
>>>>>>>>> feedback and
>>>>>>>>> I
>>>>>>>>> believe he???Td be happy to be corrected about possible
>>>>>>>>> technical
>>>>>>>>> inaccuracies in the interview. It may be also a good
>>>>>>>>> opportunity
>>>>>>>>> to
>>>>>>>>> find out what???Ts possibly missing in making anybody
>>>>>>>>> better
>>>>>>>>> informed.
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> As for ???oabsolute dismissal of what he has not
>>>>>>>>> experienced?????,
>>>>>>>>> what
>>>>>>>>> reasonable free software alternatives to a less or more
>>>>>>>>> standard
>>>>>>>>> desktop
>>>>>>>>> with Orca and a software synthesizer can you see for a
>>>>>>>>> common
>>>>>>>>> blind
>>>>>>>>> user
>>>>>>>>> who needs to use a fully working web browser, to read and
>>>>>>>>> process
>>>>>>>>> text
>>>>>>>>> documents, to be compatible with other computer users,
>>>>>>>>> etc.?
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> And let???Ts be realistic. We celebrate every single
>>>>>>>>> developer
>>>>>>>>> hired
>>>>>>>>> to
>>>>>>>>> improve accessibility. This tells something about the
>>>>>>>>> state of
>>>>>>>>> the
>>>>>>>>> matters. We cannot expect that a single person will fix
>>>>>>>>> all the
>>>>>>>>> kinds
>>>>>>>>> of accessibility problems in all the environments. Lukas
>>>>>>>>> works at
>>>>>>>>> his
>>>>>>>>> job focusing on certain areas currently seen there as
>>>>>>>>> urgent ones
>>>>>>>>> and I
>>>>>>>>> appreciate this opportunity. Anybody else seeing a need
>>>>>>>>> to
>>>>>>>>> work
>>>>>>>>> on
>>>>>>>>> other areas is welcome to contribute to whatever sees
>>>>>>>>> fit,
>>>>>>>>> as I
>>>>>>>>> do.
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> Regards,
>>>>>>>>> Milan
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>
>>>
>>>
^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 78+ messages in thread
* "Accessibility in Fedora Workstation" (fwd)
[not found] ` <003101d8b255$9973b150$80ffa8c0@Win7VM>
@ ` blinux-list
` blinux-list
[not found] ` <Pine.LNX.4.64.2208171234210.1354666@server2.shellworld.net>
2 siblings, 0 replies; 78+ messages in thread
From: blinux-list @ UTC (permalink / raw)
speaking personally?
No government employee should be a member of the NfB. ethical conflict
of interest personified.
Karen
On Wed, 17 Aug 2022, K0LNY_Glenn wrote:
> Yeah, I had been to a state NFBN convention that year and did the PAC thing.
> Then when the NFB did that, I called up the state treasurer for the NFBN and
> cancelled my PAC plan.
> I told them that they don't care if I can read my money, then they don't
> need any from me.
> Glenn
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: "Karen Lewellen" <klewellen at shellworld.net>
> To: "Butch Bussen" <butchb at shellworld.net>
> Cc: "John G. Heim" <jheim at wisc.edu>; "K0LNY_Glenn" <glenn at ervin.email>;
> <speakup at linux-speakup.org>; "Milan Zamazal" <pdm at zamazal.org>;
> <Blinux-list at redhat.com>
> Sent: Wednesday, August 17, 2022 11:18 AM
> Subject: Re: "Accessibility in Fedora Workstation" (fwd)
>
>
> My personal favorite is the rejection of money that could be identified
> by touch. never mind that for honestly thousands of years the practice has
> been common so those with limited education could still engage in commerce.
>
>
>
> On Wed, 17 Aug 2022, Butch Bussen wrote:
>
>> Yes, I remember that. And what about their oposition to descriptive
>> video,
>> even filed a law sute to get the law thrown out, which it was at that
>> time.
>> 73
>> Butch
>> WA0VJR
>> Node 3148
>> Wallace, ks.
>>
>>
>> On Tue, 16 Aug 2022, John G. Heim wrote:
>>
>>> Holy cow! Are you aware that the NFB once asked Microsoft to *NOT*
>>> improve
>>> Narrator to the point where it would compete with Jaws? If you think the
>>> NFB is incapable of forcing choices on people, you are very sadly
>>> mistaken.
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> On 8/16/22 09:36, K0LNY_Glenn wrote:
>>>> This sort of thing would never happen in Nebraska, or any state where
>>>> the
>>>> agency staff is of the NFB philosophy.
>>>> Say what you want about the NFB, no organization is without its
>>>> problems,
>>>> but it is the core philosophy that formed the NFB that knows that
>>>> society
>>>> has low expectations of the Blind, and this is why the NFB believes
>>>> in
>>>> skills and high expectations.
>>>> And with that, comes giving respect to the Blind, like the respect of
>>>> choice.
>>>> Yeah I know about the information of recent about NFB abuse, but this
>>>> is
>>>> organizational issues, unrelated to the philosophy. In fact, the
>>>> fact
>>>> that
>>>> it has come up demonstrates that the NFB is no different than any
>>>> other
>>>> organization in interpersonal staff issues.
>>>> And choice does not mean training center choices.
>>>> Choice isn't always an option, just like if you took a vocational
>>>> course
>>>> in
>>>> college, there are things you have to take, so to me, the lack of
>>>> choice
>>>> in
>>>> this regard is different than computer software, where all the
>>>> choices
>>>> will
>>>> reach the same end result.
>>>> In states where the NFB philosophy is embraced, if a client said I
>>>> want
>>>> to
>>>> use a Mac, or I want Window Eyes, then that is what they would get,
>>>> no
>>>> questions asked.
>>>> They would not have to fight to get it.
>>>> I simply cannot imagine a counselor saying that someone has to use
>>>> the
>>>> software that the counselor wants them to have.
>>>> When I hear that stuff, I almost cannot believe it, but I know Butch
>>>> well
>>>> enough to know he wouldn't make that up.
>>>>
>>>> Glenn
>>>> ----- Original Message -----
>>>> From: "Butch Bussen" <butchb at shellworld.net>
>>>> To: "Karen Lewellen" <klewellen at shellworld.net>
>>>> Cc: "K0LNY_Glenn" <glenn at ervin.email>; <speakup at linux-speakup.org>;
>>>> "Milan
>>>> Zamazal" <pdm at zamazal.org>; <Blinux-list at redhat.com>
>>>> Sent: Tuesday, August 16, 2022 8:18 AM
>>>> Subject: Re: "Accessibility in Fedora Workstation" (fwd)
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> You are right. In Nevada, freedom pushed jaws to the rehab people
>>>> and
>>>> took them out for steak diners and so forth. I fought like hell to
>>>> get
>>>> them to buy window-eyes.
>>>> 73
>>>> Butch
>>>> WA0VJR
>>>> Node 3148
>>>> Wallace, ks.
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> On Sun, 14 Aug 2022, Karen Lewellen wrote:
>>>>
>>>>> And where do these employers learn about jaws?
>>>>> In fact, provide if you do not mind an example of how this works
>>>>> exactly.
>>>>> after all, unless I am incorrect, these employers are not personal
>>>>> Jaws
>>>>> users, meaning someone they trust continues to sell them on an
>>>>> expensive
>>>>> program instead of a largely free one.
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> On Sat, 13 Aug 2022, K0LNY_Glenn wrote:
>>>>>
>>>>>> Karen,
>>>>>> Most employers don't want NVDA, and will only allow Jaws.
>>>>>> In Nebraska, if an employer said put on whatever works, the
>>>>>> counselors
>>>>>> will
>>>>>> use NVDA, because of the cost of Jaws.
>>>>>> If some of the clients in a call center already use Jaws, but
>>>>>> don't know
>>>>>> NVDA, the counselor will use Jaws, because the other clients
>>>>>> will
>>>>>> need
>>>>>> to
>>>>>> learn one of the two.
>>>>>> So it's all choice, but in the workplace, it depends on what
>>>>>> the
>>>>>> employer
>>>>>> will allow.
>>>>>> Also, sometimes scripts need to be made, and there are more
>>>>>> Jaws
>>>>>> scripters
>>>>>> available than there are NVDA add-on writers.
>>>>>> So this perception that Jaws is forced by rehab, from my 31
>>>>>> years
>>>>>> in the
>>>>>> business I can say is rubbish.
>>>>>> Now, if a counselor did not know how to use NVDA, and either
>>>>>> may
>>>>>> be
>>>>>> chosen,
>>>>>> the rehab counselor is able to select the one that the
>>>>>> counselor
>>>>>> feels
>>>>>> is
>>>>>> best for the student and for the counselor's teaching.
>>>>>> When it comes to part B moneys, which is used for
>>>>>> non-vocational
>>>>>> purchases,
>>>>>> where a lot of Jaws purchases come from, it is in the agency's
>>>>>> best
>>>>>> interest
>>>>>> to spend as little as possible, because that doesn't come back
>>>>>> like VR
>>>>>> expenditures do.
>>>>>> Glenn
>>>>>>
>>>>>> ----- Original Message -----
>>>>>> From: "Karen Lewellen" <klewellen at shellworld.net>
>>>>>> To: "K0LNY_Glenn" <glenn at ervin.email>
>>>>>> Cc: <speakup at linux-speakup.org>; "Milan Zamazal"
>>>>>> <pdm at zamazal.org>;
>>>>>> <Blinux-list at redhat.com>
>>>>>> Sent: Saturday, August 13, 2022 6:15 PM
>>>>>> Subject: Re: "Accessibility in Fedora Workstation" (fwd)
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>> The challenge with that example is that, as one often gets
>>>>>> reminded,
>>>>>> the
>>>>>> rehab systems track record for facilitating employment for
>>>>>> their
>>>>>> clients
>>>>>> is quite poor.
>>>>>> With a high percentage of unemployment among our clients.
>>>>>> Making,
>>>>>> speaking personally, your buying Jaws for personal use not
>>>>>> really
>>>>>> reflecting how the system would respond to an alternative
>>>>>> request.
>>>>>> Now if someone from organized rehab said, okay freedom
>>>>>> scientific, we
>>>>>> are
>>>>>> creating an employment program where our clients will train in
>>>>>> Linux,
>>>>>> needing a solid screen reader solution for the system. We will
>>>>>> give you
>>>>>> an
>>>>>> exclusive development contract for s millions to create the
>>>>>> tool.
>>>>>> Fs would likely say where do we sign?
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>> On Sat, 13 Aug 2022, K0LNY_Glenn wrote:
>>>>>>
>>>>>>> True enough, but largely, rehab people typically use Windows
>>>>>>> at
>>>>>>> work,
>>>>>>> and
>>>>>>> probably at home, but they need to cater to the needs of the
>>>>>>> client.
>>>>>>> If a client used Linux, I doubt that any rehab counselor
>>>>>>> would
>>>>>>> advocate
>>>>>>> that
>>>>>>> the client switch to Windows, unless that was needed for a
>>>>>>> specific
>>>>>>> job.
>>>>>>> In Nebraska, we purchased Jaws much more for personal use
>>>>>>> than
>>>>>>> we did
>>>>>>> for
>>>>>>> work related situations.
>>>>>>> So if FS made a JFL, and people were using Linux, rehab would
>>>>>>> indeed
>>>>>>> purchase a JFL product.
>>>>>>> Glenn
>>>>>>> ----- Original Message -----
>>>>>>> From: "Karen Lewellen" <klewellen at shellworld.net>
>>>>>>> To: "K0LNY_Glenn" <glenn at ervin.email>
>>>>>>> Cc: <speakup at linux-speakup.org>; "Milan Zamazal"
>>>>>>> <pdm at zamazal.org>;
>>>>>>> <Blinux-list at redhat.com>
>>>>>>> Sent: Saturday, August 13, 2022 3:01 PM
>>>>>>> Subject: Re: "Accessibility in Fedora Workstation" (fwd)
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> there was an interesting discussion a month or so back on the
>>>>>>> blinux
>>>>>>> list
>>>>>>> about how long it took completing tasks in the gui as apposed
>>>>>>> to say
>>>>>>> command line, the comments were quite informative.
>>>>>>> Still, fs has never marketed largely to the end user. Instead
>>>>>>> they
>>>>>>> market
>>>>>>> to the American rehab community.
>>>>>>> how much market research has the rehab community done to
>>>>>>> support the
>>>>>>> need
>>>>>>> for choices?
>>>>>>> How many rehab counselors support training in Linux?
>>>>>>> one comment made by the subject of this thread about poor
>>>>>>> quality
>>>>>>> speech
>>>>>>> is a fine one...out of the box Linux has few speech choices.
>>>>>>> everyone
>>>>>>> brings their needs to the table there.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> if you want to get fs to care about Linux, you need to prove
>>>>>>> there is
>>>>>>> money for them there, from their main source of income.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> On Sat, 13 Aug 2022, K0LNY_Glenn wrote:
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> Well since Orca seems to work on so many distros, I don't
>>>>>>>> know why
>>>>>>>> FS
>>>>>>>> would
>>>>>>>> not be able to do the same.
>>>>>>>> If Jaws users could switch into Linux, it would be a real
>>>>>>>> game
>>>>>>>> changer,
>>>>>>>> and
>>>>>>>> I think with lots more Blind Linux users, we would start
>>>>>>>> seeing
>>>>>>>> accessibility in Linux not being a second thought.
>>>>>>>> Glenn
>>>>>>>> ----- Original Message -----
>>>>>>>> From: "Karen Lewellen" <klewellen at shellworld.net>
>>>>>>>> To: "K0LNY_Glenn" <glenn at ervin.email>
>>>>>>>> Cc: <speakup at linux-speakup.org>; "Milan Zamazal"
>>>>>>>> <pdm at zamazal.org>;
>>>>>>>> <Blinux-list at redhat.com>
>>>>>>>> Sent: Saturday, August 13, 2022 1:47 PM
>>>>>>>> Subject: Re: "Accessibility in Fedora Workstation" (fwd)
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> Well technically freedom scientific does not exist any
>>>>>>>> longer, being
>>>>>>>> bought
>>>>>>>> by another company.
>>>>>>>> Still, I can respect why they, or nvda have not created
>>>>>>>> their
>>>>>>>> tools
>>>>>>>> for
>>>>>>>> Linux.
>>>>>>>> That is because as I understand it, Linux is quite like
>>>>>>>> clay. You
>>>>>>>> can
>>>>>>>> mold a distribution into almost anything. there are various
>>>>>>>> personifications of the system, all sorts of ways and
>>>>>>>> changes
>>>>>>>> and
>>>>>>>> options
>>>>>>>> for creativity.
>>>>>>>> however adaptive tools are often extensions of physical
>>>>>>>> characteristics,
>>>>>>>> hands, eyes, ears, brains, combinations of these.
>>>>>>>> To build solid assistive tools one must have a solid
>>>>>>>> foundation as
>>>>>>>> it
>>>>>>>> were. that is part of why there have needed to be so few
>>>>>>>> Apple
>>>>>>>> efforts
>>>>>>>> at
>>>>>>>> inclusion, they created with, and then created in-house
>>>>>>>> adaptive
>>>>>>>> tools
>>>>>>>> for various populations that were built into the system.
>>>>>>>> Although Microsoft did not bother until much later, in
>>>>>>>> theory
>>>>>>>> at
>>>>>>>> least,
>>>>>>>> the
>>>>>>>> consistency of windows is what makes it possible for
>>>>>>>> freedom
>>>>>>>> or the
>>>>>>>> former
>>>>>>>> gw micro or nvda to create something that can in theory
>>>>>>>> work.
>>>>>>>> Floor for the furniture is somewhat solid.
>>>>>>>> Just my thoughts,
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> On Sat, 13 Aug 2022, K0LNY_Glenn wrote:
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> I would like to see Freedom Scientific make a Jaws For
>>>>>>>>> Linux.
>>>>>>>>> JFL
>>>>>>>>> I'd certainly pay the yearly rental fee for it, and it
>>>>>>>>> would bring
>>>>>>>>> many
>>>>>>>>> more
>>>>>>>>> users into Linux.
>>>>>>>>> FS could, with its resources, possibly make it more
>>>>>>>>> robust
>>>>>>>>> than
>>>>>>>>> Orca.
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> Glenn
>>>>>>>>> ----- Original Message -----
>>>>>>>>> From: "Milan Zamazal" <pdm at zamazal.org>
>>>>>>>>> To: <speakup at linux-speakup.org>
>>>>>>>>> Cc: <Blinux-list at redhat.com>
>>>>>>>>> Sent: Saturday, August 13, 2022 12:08 PM
>>>>>>>>> Subject: Re: "Accessibility in Fedora Workstation" (fwd)
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> "KL" == Karen Lewellen
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> <klewellen at shellworld.net>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> writes:
>>>>>>>>> KL> What bothers me most are his lack of actual
>>>>>>>>> qualifications,
>>>>>>>>> and
>>>>>>>>> KL> absolute dismissal of what he has not experienced..as
>>>>>>>>> if
>>>>>>>>> KL> he
>>>>>>>>> KL> defines Linux usage for everyone. That attitude is
>>>>>>>>> KL> dangerous,
>>>>>>>>> KL> because he is educating those outside of the
>>>>>>>>> KL> accessibility
>>>>>>>>> KL> experiences, who will believe his ignorance is
>>>>>>>>> factual.
>>>>>>>>> KL> he
>>>>>>>>> has
>>>>>>>>> KL> to be expert, it is his job.
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> Hi Karen,
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> I know Lukas personally and I admire his skills and
>>>>>>>>> qualifications.
>>>>>>>>> I
>>>>>>>>> also know first hand that he is open to constructive
>>>>>>>>> feedback and
>>>>>>>>> I
>>>>>>>>> believe he???Td be happy to be corrected about possible
>>>>>>>>> technical
>>>>>>>>> inaccuracies in the interview. It may be also a good
>>>>>>>>> opportunity
>>>>>>>>> to
>>>>>>>>> find out what???Ts possibly missing in making anybody
>>>>>>>>> better
>>>>>>>>> informed.
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> As for ???oabsolute dismissal of what he has not
>>>>>>>>> experienced?????,
>>>>>>>>> what
>>>>>>>>> reasonable free software alternatives to a less or more
>>>>>>>>> standard
>>>>>>>>> desktop
>>>>>>>>> with Orca and a software synthesizer can you see for a
>>>>>>>>> common
>>>>>>>>> blind
>>>>>>>>> user
>>>>>>>>> who needs to use a fully working web browser, to read and
>>>>>>>>> process
>>>>>>>>> text
>>>>>>>>> documents, to be compatible with other computer users,
>>>>>>>>> etc.?
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> And let???Ts be realistic. We celebrate every single
>>>>>>>>> developer
>>>>>>>>> hired
>>>>>>>>> to
>>>>>>>>> improve accessibility. This tells something about the
>>>>>>>>> state of
>>>>>>>>> the
>>>>>>>>> matters. We cannot expect that a single person will fix
>>>>>>>>> all the
>>>>>>>>> kinds
>>>>>>>>> of accessibility problems in all the environments. Lukas
>>>>>>>>> works at
>>>>>>>>> his
>>>>>>>>> job focusing on certain areas currently seen there as
>>>>>>>>> urgent ones
>>>>>>>>> and I
>>>>>>>>> appreciate this opportunity. Anybody else seeing a need
>>>>>>>>> to
>>>>>>>>> work
>>>>>>>>> on
>>>>>>>>> other areas is welcome to contribute to whatever sees
>>>>>>>>> fit,
>>>>>>>>> as I
>>>>>>>>> do.
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> Regards,
>>>>>>>>> Milan
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>
>
>
^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 78+ messages in thread
* "Accessibility in Fedora Workstation" (fwd)
[not found] ` <Pine.LNX.4.64.2208170740540.1352313@server2.shellworld.net>
@ ` blinux-list
[not found] ` <Pine.LNX.4.64.2208171215290.1353159@server2.shellworld.net>
1 sibling, 0 replies; 78+ messages in thread
From: blinux-list @ UTC (permalink / raw)
My personal favorite is the rejection of money that could be identified
by touch. never mind that for honestly thousands of years the practice has
been common so those with limited education could still engage in commerce.
On Wed, 17 Aug 2022, Butch Bussen wrote:
> Yes, I remember that. And what about their oposition to descriptive video,
> even filed a law sute to get the law thrown out, which it was at that time.
> 73
> Butch
> WA0VJR
> Node 3148
> Wallace, ks.
>
>
> On Tue, 16 Aug 2022, John G. Heim wrote:
>
>> Holy cow! Are you aware that the NFB once asked Microsoft to *NOT* improve
>> Narrator to the point where it would compete with Jaws? If you think the
>> NFB is incapable of forcing choices on people, you are very sadly
>> mistaken.
>>
>>
>>
>> On 8/16/22 09:36, K0LNY_Glenn wrote:
>> > This sort of thing would never happen in Nebraska, or any state where
>> > the
>> > agency staff is of the NFB philosophy.
>> > Say what you want about the NFB, no organization is without its
>> > problems,
>> > but it is the core philosophy that formed the NFB that knows that
>> > society
>> > has low expectations of the Blind, and this is why the NFB believes in
>> > skills and high expectations.
>> > And with that, comes giving respect to the Blind, like the respect of
>> > choice.
>> > Yeah I know about the information of recent about NFB abuse, but this
>> > is
>> > organizational issues, unrelated to the philosophy. In fact, the fact
>> > that
>> > it has come up demonstrates that the NFB is no different than any other
>> > organization in interpersonal staff issues.
>> > And choice does not mean training center choices.
>> > Choice isn't always an option, just like if you took a vocational
>> > course
>> > in
>> > college, there are things you have to take, so to me, the lack of
>> > choice
>> > in
>> > this regard is different than computer software, where all the choices
>> > will
>> > reach the same end result.
>> > In states where the NFB philosophy is embraced, if a client said I want
>> > to
>> > use a Mac, or I want Window Eyes, then that is what they would get, no
>> > questions asked.
>> > They would not have to fight to get it.
>> > I simply cannot imagine a counselor saying that someone has to use the
>> > software that the counselor wants them to have.
>> > When I hear that stuff, I almost cannot believe it, but I know Butch
>> > well
>> > enough to know he wouldn't make that up.
>> >
>> > Glenn
>> > ----- Original Message -----
>> > From: "Butch Bussen" <butchb at shellworld.net>
>> > To: "Karen Lewellen" <klewellen at shellworld.net>
>> > Cc: "K0LNY_Glenn" <glenn at ervin.email>; <speakup at linux-speakup.org>;
>> > "Milan
>> > Zamazal" <pdm at zamazal.org>; <Blinux-list at redhat.com>
>> > Sent: Tuesday, August 16, 2022 8:18 AM
>> > Subject: Re: "Accessibility in Fedora Workstation" (fwd)
>> >
>> >
>> > You are right. In Nevada, freedom pushed jaws to the rehab people and
>> > took them out for steak diners and so forth. I fought like hell to get
>> > them to buy window-eyes.
>> > 73
>> > Butch
>> > WA0VJR
>> > Node 3148
>> > Wallace, ks.
>> >
>> >
>> > On Sun, 14 Aug 2022, Karen Lewellen wrote:
>> >
>> > > And where do these employers learn about jaws?
>> > > In fact, provide if you do not mind an example of how this works
>> > > exactly.
>> > > after all, unless I am incorrect, these employers are not personal
>> > > Jaws
>> > > users, meaning someone they trust continues to sell them on an
>> > > expensive
>> > > program instead of a largely free one.
>> > >
>> > >
>> > >
>> > > On Sat, 13 Aug 2022, K0LNY_Glenn wrote:
>> > >
>> > > > Karen,
>> > > > Most employers don't want NVDA, and will only allow Jaws.
>> > > > In Nebraska, if an employer said put on whatever works, the
>> > > > counselors
>> > > > will
>> > > > use NVDA, because of the cost of Jaws.
>> > > > If some of the clients in a call center already use Jaws, but
>> > > > don't know
>> > > > NVDA, the counselor will use Jaws, because the other clients will
>> > > > need
>> > > > to
>> > > > learn one of the two.
>> > > > So it's all choice, but in the workplace, it depends on what the
>> > > > employer
>> > > > will allow.
>> > > > Also, sometimes scripts need to be made, and there are more Jaws
>> > > > scripters
>> > > > available than there are NVDA add-on writers.
>> > > > So this perception that Jaws is forced by rehab, from my 31 years
>> > > > in the
>> > > > business I can say is rubbish.
>> > > > Now, if a counselor did not know how to use NVDA, and either may
>> > > > be
>> > > > chosen,
>> > > > the rehab counselor is able to select the one that the counselor
>> > > > feels
>> > > > is
>> > > > best for the student and for the counselor's teaching.
>> > > > When it comes to part B moneys, which is used for non-vocational
>> > > > purchases,
>> > > > where a lot of Jaws purchases come from, it is in the agency's
>> > > > best
>> > > > interest
>> > > > to spend as little as possible, because that doesn't come back
>> > > > like VR
>> > > > expenditures do.
>> > > > Glenn
>> > > >
>> > > > ----- Original Message -----
>> > > > From: "Karen Lewellen" <klewellen at shellworld.net>
>> > > > To: "K0LNY_Glenn" <glenn at ervin.email>
>> > > > Cc: <speakup at linux-speakup.org>; "Milan Zamazal"
>> > > > <pdm at zamazal.org>;
>> > > > <Blinux-list at redhat.com>
>> > > > Sent: Saturday, August 13, 2022 6:15 PM
>> > > > Subject: Re: "Accessibility in Fedora Workstation" (fwd)
>> > > >
>> > > >
>> > > > The challenge with that example is that, as one often gets
>> > > > reminded,
>> > > > the
>> > > > rehab systems track record for facilitating employment for their
>> > > > clients
>> > > > is quite poor.
>> > > > With a high percentage of unemployment among our clients.
>> > > > Making,
>> > > > speaking personally, your buying Jaws for personal use not really
>> > > > reflecting how the system would respond to an alternative
>> > > > request.
>> > > > Now if someone from organized rehab said, okay freedom
>> > > > scientific, we
>> > > > are
>> > > > creating an employment program where our clients will train in
>> > > > Linux,
>> > > > needing a solid screen reader solution for the system. We will
>> > > > give you
>> > > > an
>> > > > exclusive development contract for s millions to create the tool.
>> > > > Fs would likely say where do we sign?
>> > > >
>> > > >
>> > > >
>> > > > On Sat, 13 Aug 2022, K0LNY_Glenn wrote:
>> > > >
>> > > > > True enough, but largely, rehab people typically use Windows at
>> > > > > work,
>> > > > > and
>> > > > > probably at home, but they need to cater to the needs of the
>> > > > > client.
>> > > > > If a client used Linux, I doubt that any rehab counselor would
>> > > > > advocate
>> > > > > that
>> > > > > the client switch to Windows, unless that was needed for a
>> > > > > specific
>> > > > > job.
>> > > > > In Nebraska, we purchased Jaws much more for personal use than
>> > > > > we did
>> > > > > for
>> > > > > work related situations.
>> > > > > So if FS made a JFL, and people were using Linux, rehab would
>> > > > > indeed
>> > > > > purchase a JFL product.
>> > > > > Glenn
>> > > > > ----- Original Message -----
>> > > > > From: "Karen Lewellen" <klewellen at shellworld.net>
>> > > > > To: "K0LNY_Glenn" <glenn at ervin.email>
>> > > > > Cc: <speakup at linux-speakup.org>; "Milan Zamazal"
>> > > > > <pdm at zamazal.org>;
>> > > > > <Blinux-list at redhat.com>
>> > > > > Sent: Saturday, August 13, 2022 3:01 PM
>> > > > > Subject: Re: "Accessibility in Fedora Workstation" (fwd)
>> > > > >
>> > > > >
>> > > > > there was an interesting discussion a month or so back on the
>> > > > > blinux
>> > > > > list
>> > > > > about how long it took completing tasks in the gui as apposed
>> > > > > to say
>> > > > > command line, the comments were quite informative.
>> > > > > Still, fs has never marketed largely to the end user. Instead
>> > > > > they
>> > > > > market
>> > > > > to the American rehab community.
>> > > > > how much market research has the rehab community done to
>> > > > > support the
>> > > > > need
>> > > > > for choices?
>> > > > > How many rehab counselors support training in Linux?
>> > > > > one comment made by the subject of this thread about poor
>> > > > > quality
>> > > > > speech
>> > > > > is a fine one...out of the box Linux has few speech choices.
>> > > > > everyone
>> > > > > brings their needs to the table there.
>> > > > >
>> > > > > if you want to get fs to care about Linux, you need to prove
>> > > > > there is
>> > > > > money for them there, from their main source of income.
>> > > > >
>> > > > >
>> > > > >
>> > > > > On Sat, 13 Aug 2022, K0LNY_Glenn wrote:
>> > > > >
>> > > > > > Well since Orca seems to work on so many distros, I don't
>> > > > > > know why
>> > > > > > FS
>> > > > > > would
>> > > > > > not be able to do the same.
>> > > > > > If Jaws users could switch into Linux, it would be a real
>> > > > > > game
>> > > > > > changer,
>> > > > > > and
>> > > > > > I think with lots more Blind Linux users, we would start
>> > > > > > seeing
>> > > > > > accessibility in Linux not being a second thought.
>> > > > > > Glenn
>> > > > > > ----- Original Message -----
>> > > > > > From: "Karen Lewellen" <klewellen at shellworld.net>
>> > > > > > To: "K0LNY_Glenn" <glenn at ervin.email>
>> > > > > > Cc: <speakup at linux-speakup.org>; "Milan Zamazal"
>> > > > > > <pdm at zamazal.org>;
>> > > > > > <Blinux-list at redhat.com>
>> > > > > > Sent: Saturday, August 13, 2022 1:47 PM
>> > > > > > Subject: Re: "Accessibility in Fedora Workstation" (fwd)
>> > > > > >
>> > > > > >
>> > > > > > Well technically freedom scientific does not exist any
>> > > > > > longer, being
>> > > > > > bought
>> > > > > > by another company.
>> > > > > > Still, I can respect why they, or nvda have not created their
>> > > > > > tools
>> > > > > > for
>> > > > > > Linux.
>> > > > > > That is because as I understand it, Linux is quite like
>> > > > > > clay. You
>> > > > > > can
>> > > > > > mold a distribution into almost anything. there are various
>> > > > > > personifications of the system, all sorts of ways and changes
>> > > > > > and
>> > > > > > options
>> > > > > > for creativity.
>> > > > > > however adaptive tools are often extensions of physical
>> > > > > > characteristics,
>> > > > > > hands, eyes, ears, brains, combinations of these.
>> > > > > > To build solid assistive tools one must have a solid
>> > > > > > foundation as
>> > > > > > it
>> > > > > > were. that is part of why there have needed to be so few
>> > > > > > Apple
>> > > > > > efforts
>> > > > > > at
>> > > > > > inclusion, they created with, and then created in-house
>> > > > > > adaptive
>> > > > > > tools
>> > > > > > for various populations that were built into the system.
>> > > > > > Although Microsoft did not bother until much later, in theory
>> > > > > > at
>> > > > > > least,
>> > > > > > the
>> > > > > > consistency of windows is what makes it possible for freedom
>> > > > > > or the
>> > > > > > former
>> > > > > > gw micro or nvda to create something that can in theory
>> > > > > > work.
>> > > > > > Floor for the furniture is somewhat solid.
>> > > > > > Just my thoughts,
>> > > > > >
>> > > > > >
>> > > > > >
>> > > > > > On Sat, 13 Aug 2022, K0LNY_Glenn wrote:
>> > > > > >
>> > > > > > > I would like to see Freedom Scientific make a Jaws For
>> > > > > > > Linux.
>> > > > > > > JFL
>> > > > > > > I'd certainly pay the yearly rental fee for it, and it
>> > > > > > > would bring
>> > > > > > > many
>> > > > > > > more
>> > > > > > > users into Linux.
>> > > > > > > FS could, with its resources, possibly make it more robust
>> > > > > > > than
>> > > > > > > Orca.
>> > > > > > >
>> > > > > > > Glenn
>> > > > > > > ----- Original Message -----
>> > > > > > > From: "Milan Zamazal" <pdm at zamazal.org>
>> > > > > > > To: <speakup at linux-speakup.org>
>> > > > > > > Cc: <Blinux-list at redhat.com>
>> > > > > > > Sent: Saturday, August 13, 2022 12:08 PM
>> > > > > > > Subject: Re: "Accessibility in Fedora Workstation" (fwd)
>> > > > > > >
>> > > > > > >
>> > > > > > > > > > > > "KL" == Karen Lewellen <klewellen at shellworld.net>
>> > > > > > > > > > > > writes:
>> > > > > > > KL> What bothers me most are his lack of actual
>> > > > > > > qualifications,
>> > > > > > > and
>> > > > > > > KL> absolute dismissal of what he has not experienced..as if
>> > > > > > > KL> he
>> > > > > > > KL> defines Linux usage for everyone. That attitude is
>> > > > > > > KL> dangerous,
>> > > > > > > KL> because he is educating those outside of the
>> > > > > > > KL> accessibility
>> > > > > > > KL> experiences, who will believe his ignorance is factual.
>> > > > > > > KL> he
>> > > > > > > has
>> > > > > > > KL> to be expert, it is his job.
>> > > > > > >
>> > > > > > > Hi Karen,
>> > > > > > >
>> > > > > > > I know Lukas personally and I admire his skills and
>> > > > > > > qualifications.
>> > > > > > > I
>> > > > > > > also know first hand that he is open to constructive
>> > > > > > > feedback and
>> > > > > > > I
>> > > > > > > believe he???Td be happy to be corrected about possible
>> > > > > > > technical
>> > > > > > > inaccuracies in the interview. It may be also a good
>> > > > > > > opportunity
>> > > > > > > to
>> > > > > > > find out what???Ts possibly missing in making anybody
>> > > > > > > better
>> > > > > > > informed.
>> > > > > > >
>> > > > > > > As for ???oabsolute dismissal of what he has not
>> > > > > > > experienced?????,
>> > > > > > > what
>> > > > > > > reasonable free software alternatives to a less or more
>> > > > > > > standard
>> > > > > > > desktop
>> > > > > > > with Orca and a software synthesizer can you see for a
>> > > > > > > common
>> > > > > > > blind
>> > > > > > > user
>> > > > > > > who needs to use a fully working web browser, to read and
>> > > > > > > process
>> > > > > > > text
>> > > > > > > documents, to be compatible with other computer users,
>> > > > > > > etc.?
>> > > > > > >
>> > > > > > > And let???Ts be realistic. We celebrate every single
>> > > > > > > developer
>> > > > > > > hired
>> > > > > > > to
>> > > > > > > improve accessibility. This tells something about the
>> > > > > > > state of
>> > > > > > > the
>> > > > > > > matters. We cannot expect that a single person will fix
>> > > > > > > all the
>> > > > > > > kinds
>> > > > > > > of accessibility problems in all the environments. Lukas
>> > > > > > > works at
>> > > > > > > his
>> > > > > > > job focusing on certain areas currently seen there as
>> > > > > > > urgent ones
>> > > > > > > and I
>> > > > > > > appreciate this opportunity. Anybody else seeing a need to
>> > > > > > > work
>> > > > > > > on
>> > > > > > > other areas is welcome to contribute to whatever sees fit,
>> > > > > > > as I
>> > > > > > > do.
>> > > > > > >
>> > > > > > > Regards,
>> > > > > > > Milan
>> > > > > > >
>> > > > > > >
>> > > > > > >
>> > > > > > >
>> > > > > >
>> > > > >
>> > > >
>> >
>>
>>
>>
>
^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 78+ messages in thread
* "Accessibility in Fedora Workstation" (fwd)
[not found] ` <Pine.LNX.4.64.2208170744140.1352313@server2.shellworld.net>
@ ` blinux-list
0 siblings, 0 replies; 78+ messages in thread
From: blinux-list @ UTC (permalink / raw)
Several years ago, I talked with Dave Bolnick who at that time was
Microsoft Accessibility Team lead and he told me the same thing about the
N.F.B.
Jude <jdashiel at panix dot com> .
On Wed, 17 Aug 2022, Butch Bussen wrote:
> It isn't just a rumor. I was heavily involved with gw micro at that time, and
> nfb's reasoning was it would stop development of screen readers. Gw was
> working with microsoft at that time and I got it directly from Doug.
> 73
> Butch
> WA0VJR
> Node 3148
> Wallace, ks.
>
>
> On Tue, 16 Aug 2022, K0LNY_Glenn wrote:
>
> > That is hear-say, an old rumor that has been recycled countless times.
> > Glenn
> > ----- Original Message -----
> > From: "John G. Heim" <jheim at wisc.edu>
> > To: "K0LNY_Glenn" <glenn at ervin.email>; "Butch Bussen"
> > <butchb at shellworld.net>; "Karen Lewellen" <klewellen at shellworld.net>
> > Cc: <speakup at linux-speakup.org>; "Milan Zamazal" <pdm at zamazal.org>;
> > <Blinux-list at redhat.com>
> > Sent: Tuesday, August 16, 2022 11:49 AM
> > Subject: Re: "Accessibility in Fedora Workstation" (fwd)
> >
> >
> > Holy cow! Are you aware that the NFB once asked Microsoft to *NOT*
> > improve Narrator to the point where it would compete with Jaws? If you
> > think the NFB is incapable of forcing choices on people, you are very
> > sadly mistaken.
> >
> >
> >
> > On 8/16/22 09:36, K0LNY_Glenn wrote:
> >> This sort of thing would never happen in Nebraska, or any state where the
> >> agency staff is of the NFB philosophy.
> >> Say what you want about the NFB, no organization is without its problems,
> >> but it is the core philosophy that formed the NFB that knows that society
> >> has low expectations of the Blind, and this is why the NFB believes in
> >> skills and high expectations.
> >> And with that, comes giving respect to the Blind, like the respect of
> >> choice.
> >> Yeah I know about the information of recent about NFB abuse, but this is
> >> organizational issues, unrelated to the philosophy. In fact, the fact
> >> that
> >> it has come up demonstrates that the NFB is no different than any other
> >> organization in interpersonal staff issues.
> >> And choice does not mean training center choices.
> >> Choice isn't always an option, just like if you took a vocational course
> >> in
> >> college, there are things you have to take, so to me, the lack of choice
> >> in
> >> this regard is different than computer software, where all the choices
> >> will
> >> reach the same end result.
> >> In states where the NFB philosophy is embraced, if a client said I want to
> >> use a Mac, or I want Window Eyes, then that is what they would get, no
> >> questions asked.
> >> They would not have to fight to get it.
> >> I simply cannot imagine a counselor saying that someone has to use the
> >> software that the counselor wants them to have.
> >> When I hear that stuff, I almost cannot believe it, but I know Butch well
> >> enough to know he wouldn't make that up.
> >>
> >> Glenn
> >> ----- Original Message -----
> >> From: "Butch Bussen" <butchb at shellworld.net>
> >> To: "Karen Lewellen" <klewellen at shellworld.net>
> >> Cc: "K0LNY_Glenn" <glenn at ervin.email>; <speakup at linux-speakup.org>; "Milan
> >> Zamazal" <pdm at zamazal.org>; <Blinux-list at redhat.com>
> >> Sent: Tuesday, August 16, 2022 8:18 AM
> >> Subject: Re: "Accessibility in Fedora Workstation" (fwd)
> >>
> >>
> >> You are right. In Nevada, freedom pushed jaws to the rehab people and
> >> took them out for steak diners and so forth. I fought like hell to get
> >> them to buy window-eyes.
> >> 73
> >> Butch
> >> WA0VJR
> >> Node 3148
> >> Wallace, ks.
> >>
> >>
> >> On Sun, 14 Aug 2022, Karen Lewellen wrote:
> >>
> >>> And where do these employers learn about jaws?
> >>> In fact, provide if you do not mind an example of how this works
> >>> exactly.
> >>> after all, unless I am incorrect, these employers are not personal Jaws
> >>> users, meaning someone they trust continues to sell them on an expensive
> >>> program instead of a largely free one.
> >>>
> >>>
> >>>
> >>> On Sat, 13 Aug 2022, K0LNY_Glenn wrote:
> >>>
> >>>> Karen,
> >>>> Most employers don't want NVDA, and will only allow Jaws.
> >>>> In Nebraska, if an employer said put on whatever works, the counselors
> >>>> will
> >>>> use NVDA, because of the cost of Jaws.
> >>>> If some of the clients in a call center already use Jaws, but don't
> >>>> know
> >>>> NVDA, the counselor will use Jaws, because the other clients will need
> >>>> to
> >>>> learn one of the two.
> >>>> So it's all choice, but in the workplace, it depends on what the
> >>>> employer
> >>>> will allow.
> >>>> Also, sometimes scripts need to be made, and there are more Jaws
> >>>> scripters
> >>>> available than there are NVDA add-on writers.
> >>>> So this perception that Jaws is forced by rehab, from my 31 years in
> >>>> the
> >>>> business I can say is rubbish.
> >>>> Now, if a counselor did not know how to use NVDA, and either may be
> >>>> chosen,
> >>>> the rehab counselor is able to select the one that the counselor feels
> >>>> is
> >>>> best for the student and for the counselor's teaching.
> >>>> When it comes to part B moneys, which is used for non-vocational
> >>>> purchases,
> >>>> where a lot of Jaws purchases come from, it is in the agency's best
> >>>> interest
> >>>> to spend as little as possible, because that doesn't come back like VR
> >>>> expenditures do.
> >>>> Glenn
> >>>>
> >>>> ----- Original Message -----
> >>>> From: "Karen Lewellen" <klewellen at shellworld.net>
> >>>> To: "K0LNY_Glenn" <glenn at ervin.email>
> >>>> Cc: <speakup at linux-speakup.org>; "Milan Zamazal" <pdm at zamazal.org>;
> >>>> <Blinux-list at redhat.com>
> >>>> Sent: Saturday, August 13, 2022 6:15 PM
> >>>> Subject: Re: "Accessibility in Fedora Workstation" (fwd)
> >>>>
> >>>>
> >>>> The challenge with that example is that, as one often gets reminded,
> >>>> the
> >>>> rehab systems track record for facilitating employment for their
> >>>> clients
> >>>> is quite poor.
> >>>> With a high percentage of unemployment among our clients. Making,
> >>>> speaking personally, your buying Jaws for personal use not really
> >>>> reflecting how the system would respond to an alternative request.
> >>>> Now if someone from organized rehab said, okay freedom scientific, we
> >>>> are
> >>>> creating an employment program where our clients will train in Linux,
> >>>> needing a solid screen reader solution for the system. We will give
> >>>> you
> >>>> an
> >>>> exclusive development contract for s millions to create the tool.
> >>>> Fs would likely say where do we sign?
> >>>>
> >>>>
> >>>>
> >>>> On Sat, 13 Aug 2022, K0LNY_Glenn wrote:
> >>>>
> >>>>> True enough, but largely, rehab people typically use Windows at work,
> >>>>> and
> >>>>> probably at home, but they need to cater to the needs of the client.
> >>>>> If a client used Linux, I doubt that any rehab counselor would
> >>>>> advocate
> >>>>> that
> >>>>> the client switch to Windows, unless that was needed for a specific
> >>>>> job.
> >>>>> In Nebraska, we purchased Jaws much more for personal use than we did
> >>>>> for
> >>>>> work related situations.
> >>>>> So if FS made a JFL, and people were using Linux, rehab would indeed
> >>>>> purchase a JFL product.
> >>>>> Glenn
> >>>>> ----- Original Message -----
> >>>>> From: "Karen Lewellen" <klewellen at shellworld.net>
> >>>>> To: "K0LNY_Glenn" <glenn at ervin.email>
> >>>>> Cc: <speakup at linux-speakup.org>; "Milan Zamazal" <pdm at zamazal.org>;
> >>>>> <Blinux-list at redhat.com>
> >>>>> Sent: Saturday, August 13, 2022 3:01 PM
> >>>>> Subject: Re: "Accessibility in Fedora Workstation" (fwd)
> >>>>>
> >>>>>
> >>>>> there was an interesting discussion a month or so back on the blinux
> >>>>> list
> >>>>> about how long it took completing tasks in the gui as apposed to say
> >>>>> command line, the comments were quite informative.
> >>>>> Still, fs has never marketed largely to the end user. Instead they
> >>>>> market
> >>>>> to the American rehab community.
> >>>>> how much market research has the rehab community done to support the
> >>>>> need
> >>>>> for choices?
> >>>>> How many rehab counselors support training in Linux?
> >>>>> one comment made by the subject of this thread about poor quality
> >>>>> speech
> >>>>> is a fine one...out of the box Linux has few speech choices.
> >>>>> everyone
> >>>>> brings their needs to the table there.
> >>>>>
> >>>>> if you want to get fs to care about Linux, you need to prove there
> >>>>> is
> >>>>> money for them there, from their main source of income.
> >>>>>
> >>>>>
> >>>>>
> >>>>> On Sat, 13 Aug 2022, K0LNY_Glenn wrote:
> >>>>>
> >>>>>> Well since Orca seems to work on so many distros, I don't know why
> >>>>>> FS
> >>>>>> would
> >>>>>> not be able to do the same.
> >>>>>> If Jaws users could switch into Linux, it would be a real game
> >>>>>> changer,
> >>>>>> and
> >>>>>> I think with lots more Blind Linux users, we would start seeing
> >>>>>> accessibility in Linux not being a second thought.
> >>>>>> Glenn
> >>>>>> ----- Original Message -----
> >>>>>> From: "Karen Lewellen" <klewellen at shellworld.net>
> >>>>>> To: "K0LNY_Glenn" <glenn at ervin.email>
> >>>>>> Cc: <speakup at linux-speakup.org>; "Milan Zamazal" <pdm at zamazal.org>;
> >>>>>> <Blinux-list at redhat.com>
> >>>>>> Sent: Saturday, August 13, 2022 1:47 PM
> >>>>>> Subject: Re: "Accessibility in Fedora Workstation" (fwd)
> >>>>>>
> >>>>>>
> >>>>>> Well technically freedom scientific does not exist any longer, being
> >>>>>> bought
> >>>>>> by another company.
> >>>>>> Still, I can respect why they, or nvda have not created their tools
> >>>>>> for
> >>>>>> Linux.
> >>>>>> That is because as I understand it, Linux is quite like clay. You
> >>>>>> can
> >>>>>> mold a distribution into almost anything. there are various
> >>>>>> personifications of the system, all sorts of ways and changes and
> >>>>>> options
> >>>>>> for creativity.
> >>>>>> however adaptive tools are often extensions of physical
> >>>>>> characteristics,
> >>>>>> hands, eyes, ears, brains, combinations of these.
> >>>>>> To build solid assistive tools one must have a solid foundation as
> >>>>>> it
> >>>>>> were. that is part of why there have needed to be so few Apple
> >>>>>> efforts
> >>>>>> at
> >>>>>> inclusion, they created with, and then created in-house adaptive
> >>>>>> tools
> >>>>>> for various populations that were built into the system.
> >>>>>> Although Microsoft did not bother until much later, in theory at
> >>>>>> least,
> >>>>>> the
> >>>>>> consistency of windows is what makes it possible for freedom or the
> >>>>>> former
> >>>>>> gw micro or nvda to create something that can in theory work.
> >>>>>> Floor for the furniture is somewhat solid.
> >>>>>> Just my thoughts,
> >>>>>>
> >>>>>>
> >>>>>>
> >>>>>> On Sat, 13 Aug 2022, K0LNY_Glenn wrote:
> >>>>>>
> >>>>>>> I would like to see Freedom Scientific make a Jaws For Linux.
> >>>>>>> JFL
> >>>>>>> I'd certainly pay the yearly rental fee for it, and it would bring
> >>>>>>> many
> >>>>>>> more
> >>>>>>> users into Linux.
> >>>>>>> FS could, with its resources, possibly make it more robust than
> >>>>>>> Orca.
> >>>>>>>
> >>>>>>> Glenn
> >>>>>>> ----- Original Message -----
> >>>>>>> From: "Milan Zamazal" <pdm at zamazal.org>
> >>>>>>> To: <speakup at linux-speakup.org>
> >>>>>>> Cc: <Blinux-list at redhat.com>
> >>>>>>> Sent: Saturday, August 13, 2022 12:08 PM
> >>>>>>> Subject: Re: "Accessibility in Fedora Workstation" (fwd)
> >>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>>>> "KL" == Karen Lewellen <klewellen at shellworld.net>
> >>>>>>>>>>>> writes:
> >>>>>>> KL> What bothers me most are his lack of actual qualifications,
> >>>>>>> and
> >>>>>>> KL> absolute dismissal of what he has not experienced..as if he
> >>>>>>> KL> defines Linux usage for everyone. That attitude is dangerous,
> >>>>>>> KL> because he is educating those outside of the accessibility
> >>>>>>> KL> experiences, who will believe his ignorance is factual. he
> >>>>>>> has
> >>>>>>> KL> to be expert, it is his job.
> >>>>>>>
> >>>>>>> Hi Karen,
> >>>>>>>
> >>>>>>> I know Lukas personally and I admire his skills and
> >>>>>>> qualifications.
> >>>>>>> I
> >>>>>>> also know first hand that he is open to constructive feedback and
> >>>>>>> I
> >>>>>>> believe he??Td be happy to be corrected about possible technical
> >>>>>>> inaccuracies in the interview. It may be also a good opportunity
> >>>>>>> to
> >>>>>>> find out what??Ts possibly missing in making anybody better
> >>>>>>> informed.
> >>>>>>>
> >>>>>>> As for ??oabsolute dismissal of what he has not experienced???,
> >>>>>>> what
> >>>>>>> reasonable free software alternatives to a less or more standard
> >>>>>>> desktop
> >>>>>>> with Orca and a software synthesizer can you see for a common
> >>>>>>> blind
> >>>>>>> user
> >>>>>>> who needs to use a fully working web browser, to read and process
> >>>>>>> text
> >>>>>>> documents, to be compatible with other computer users, etc.?
> >>>>>>>
> >>>>>>> And let??Ts be realistic. We celebrate every single developer
> >>>>>>> hired
> >>>>>>> to
> >>>>>>> improve accessibility. This tells something about the state of
> >>>>>>> the
> >>>>>>> matters. We cannot expect that a single person will fix all the
> >>>>>>> kinds
> >>>>>>> of accessibility problems in all the environments. Lukas works at
> >>>>>>> his
> >>>>>>> job focusing on certain areas currently seen there as urgent ones
> >>>>>>> and I
> >>>>>>> appreciate this opportunity. Anybody else seeing a need to work
> >>>>>>> on
> >>>>>>> other areas is welcome to contribute to whatever sees fit, as I
> >>>>>>> do.
> >>>>>>>
> >>>>>>> Regards,
> >>>>>>> Milan
> >>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>
> >>>>>>
> >>>>>
> >>>>
> >>
> >
> >
>
^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 78+ messages in thread
* "Accessibility in Fedora Workstation" (fwd)
` blinux-list
@ ` blinux-list
` blinux-list
0 siblings, 1 reply; 78+ messages in thread
From: blinux-list @ UTC (permalink / raw)
In orca in a terminal environment I can use vi variants other than elvis
by use of the -e option. That -e option turns what would be a
screen-oriented editor into a line-oriented editor. Once that happens I
can confidently know I'll be working with smaller objects than the entire
screen. When I used dos professionally my go to tool for editing was
edlin and not edit. I can and do use emacs but not to the level the
experts with emacs do.
Jude <jdashiel at panix dot com> .
On Wed, 17 Aug 2022, Linux for blind general discussion wrote:
> Let me chime in here from the opposition point of view.
>
> Having used both the paid screen readers (JAWS and also GwMicro) and many of the free screen readers, The paid ones may have more features and are probably tuned a bit more closely to work in a specified OS, but the free ones often times offer more latitude when dealing with non-standard content.
>
> Now, some other considerations, not all computer systems can handle a full GUI (case in point: the RaspberryPi 3 series of which I have 1). So, the use of a console there is a must and I use several of the console available screen readers, Like BrltTY, Emacsspeak, Speakup and others). There are times when this is very useful when the full GUI might present some issues.
>
> Now, this doesn?t mean I haven?t stopped using full GUI interfaces. I have, for the most part, stuck with either JAWS or NVDA on windows (what one can?t read, the other might), Voiceover on OS X and any of the half dozen or so screen readers available in Linux (ORCA being the primary for GUI and anything else for console as needed). Each has their flaws and each has their strengths and it doesn?t hurt to know them all. Believe me, try using VI or NANO in a terminal with ORCA. It doesn?t work very well. However, the others work very well there, but not so well inside the GUI. It all depends on what you need to do. It?s called using the right tool for the right job.
>
> -Eric
> From the Central Offices of the Technomage Guild, Tool Maintenance Dept.
>
>
> > On Aug 16, 2022, at 11:26 AM, Linux for blind general discussion <blinux-list at redhat.com> wrote:
> >
> > Actually, I'd like to know where you got the idea that it's just a rumor. It is not. I was personally involved at the time, arguing strenuously against the policy. I can give you names of people at the NFB who backed the policy if you'd like.
> >
> > The NFB's reasoning was that a free screen reader would not be as good as one you had to pay for. They reasoned that Microsoft had little motivation to keep on improving their screen reader but it might be enough to drive Freedom Scientific out of business. As a Linux user, I felt that reasoning was flawed mainly because I felt free, open source screen readers were right around the corner anyway. I believe I was using Speakup and something called Nupernicus on Linux at the time.
> >
> > This is absolutely not a rumor.
> >
> >
> > On 8/16/22 12:31, K0LNY_Glenn wrote:
> >> That is hear-say, an old rumor that has been recycled countless times.
> >> Glenn
> >> ----- Original Message -----
> >> From: "John G. Heim" <jheim at wisc.edu>
> >> To: "K0LNY_Glenn" <glenn at ervin.email>; "Butch Bussen"
> >> <butchb at shellworld.net>; "Karen Lewellen" <klewellen at shellworld.net>
> >> Cc: <speakup at linux-speakup.org>; "Milan Zamazal" <pdm at zamazal.org>;
> >> <Blinux-list at redhat.com>
> >> Sent: Tuesday, August 16, 2022 11:49 AM
> >> Subject: Re: "Accessibility in Fedora Workstation" (fwd)
> >>
> >>
> >> Holy cow! Are you aware that the NFB once asked Microsoft to *NOT*
> >> improve Narrator to the point where it would compete with Jaws? If you
> >> think the NFB is incapable of forcing choices on people, you are very
> >> sadly mistaken.
> >>
> >>
> >>
> >> On 8/16/22 09:36, K0LNY_Glenn wrote:
> >>> This sort of thing would never happen in Nebraska, or any state where the
> >>> agency staff is of the NFB philosophy.
> >>> Say what you want about the NFB, no organization is without its problems,
> >>> but it is the core philosophy that formed the NFB that knows that society
> >>> has low expectations of the Blind, and this is why the NFB believes in
> >>> skills and high expectations.
> >>> And with that, comes giving respect to the Blind, like the respect of
> >>> choice.
> >>> Yeah I know about the information of recent about NFB abuse, but this is
> >>> organizational issues, unrelated to the philosophy. In fact, the fact
> >>> that
> >>> it has come up demonstrates that the NFB is no different than any other
> >>> organization in interpersonal staff issues.
> >>> And choice does not mean training center choices.
> >>> Choice isn't always an option, just like if you took a vocational course
> >>> in
> >>> college, there are things you have to take, so to me, the lack of choice
> >>> in
> >>> this regard is different than computer software, where all the choices
> >>> will
> >>> reach the same end result.
> >>> In states where the NFB philosophy is embraced, if a client said I want to
> >>> use a Mac, or I want Window Eyes, then that is what they would get, no
> >>> questions asked.
> >>> They would not have to fight to get it.
> >>> I simply cannot imagine a counselor saying that someone has to use the
> >>> software that the counselor wants them to have.
> >>> When I hear that stuff, I almost cannot believe it, but I know Butch well
> >>> enough to know he wouldn't make that up.
> >>>
> >>> Glenn
> >>> ----- Original Message -----
> >>> From: "Butch Bussen" <butchb at shellworld.net>
> >>> To: "Karen Lewellen" <klewellen at shellworld.net>
> >>> Cc: "K0LNY_Glenn" <glenn at ervin.email>; <speakup at linux-speakup.org>; "Milan
> >>> Zamazal" <pdm at zamazal.org>; <Blinux-list at redhat.com>
> >>> Sent: Tuesday, August 16, 2022 8:18 AM
> >>> Subject: Re: "Accessibility in Fedora Workstation" (fwd)
> >>>
> >>>
> >>> You are right. In Nevada, freedom pushed jaws to the rehab people and
> >>> took them out for steak diners and so forth. I fought like hell to get
> >>> them to buy window-eyes.
> >>> 73
> >>> Butch
> >>> WA0VJR
> >>> Node 3148
> >>> Wallace, ks.
> >>>
> >>>
> >>> On Sun, 14 Aug 2022, Karen Lewellen wrote:
> >>>
> >>>> And where do these employers learn about jaws?
> >>>> In fact, provide if you do not mind an example of how this works
> >>>> exactly.
> >>>> after all, unless I am incorrect, these employers are not personal Jaws
> >>>> users, meaning someone they trust continues to sell them on an expensive
> >>>> program instead of a largely free one.
> >>>>
> >>>>
> >>>>
> >>>> On Sat, 13 Aug 2022, K0LNY_Glenn wrote:
> >>>>
> >>>>> Karen,
> >>>>> Most employers don't want NVDA, and will only allow Jaws.
> >>>>> In Nebraska, if an employer said put on whatever works, the counselors
> >>>>> will
> >>>>> use NVDA, because of the cost of Jaws.
> >>>>> If some of the clients in a call center already use Jaws, but don't
> >>>>> know
> >>>>> NVDA, the counselor will use Jaws, because the other clients will need
> >>>>> to
> >>>>> learn one of the two.
> >>>>> So it's all choice, but in the workplace, it depends on what the
> >>>>> employer
> >>>>> will allow.
> >>>>> Also, sometimes scripts need to be made, and there are more Jaws
> >>>>> scripters
> >>>>> available than there are NVDA add-on writers.
> >>>>> So this perception that Jaws is forced by rehab, from my 31 years in
> >>>>> the
> >>>>> business I can say is rubbish.
> >>>>> Now, if a counselor did not know how to use NVDA, and either may be
> >>>>> chosen,
> >>>>> the rehab counselor is able to select the one that the counselor feels
> >>>>> is
> >>>>> best for the student and for the counselor's teaching.
> >>>>> When it comes to part B moneys, which is used for non-vocational
> >>>>> purchases,
> >>>>> where a lot of Jaws purchases come from, it is in the agency's best
> >>>>> interest
> >>>>> to spend as little as possible, because that doesn't come back like VR
> >>>>> expenditures do.
> >>>>> Glenn
> >>>>>
> >>>>> ----- Original Message -----
> >>>>> From: "Karen Lewellen" <klewellen at shellworld.net>
> >>>>> To: "K0LNY_Glenn" <glenn at ervin.email>
> >>>>> Cc: <speakup at linux-speakup.org>; "Milan Zamazal" <pdm at zamazal.org>;
> >>>>> <Blinux-list at redhat.com>
> >>>>> Sent: Saturday, August 13, 2022 6:15 PM
> >>>>> Subject: Re: "Accessibility in Fedora Workstation" (fwd)
> >>>>>
> >>>>>
> >>>>> The challenge with that example is that, as one often gets reminded,
> >>>>> the
> >>>>> rehab systems track record for facilitating employment for their
> >>>>> clients
> >>>>> is quite poor.
> >>>>> With a high percentage of unemployment among our clients. Making,
> >>>>> speaking personally, your buying Jaws for personal use not really
> >>>>> reflecting how the system would respond to an alternative request.
> >>>>> Now if someone from organized rehab said, okay freedom scientific, we
> >>>>> are
> >>>>> creating an employment program where our clients will train in Linux,
> >>>>> needing a solid screen reader solution for the system. We will give
> >>>>> you
> >>>>> an
> >>>>> exclusive development contract for s millions to create the tool.
> >>>>> Fs would likely say where do we sign?
> >>>>>
> >>>>>
> >>>>>
> >>>>> On Sat, 13 Aug 2022, K0LNY_Glenn wrote:
> >>>>>
> >>>>>> True enough, but largely, rehab people typically use Windows at work,
> >>>>>> and
> >>>>>> probably at home, but they need to cater to the needs of the client.
> >>>>>> If a client used Linux, I doubt that any rehab counselor would
> >>>>>> advocate
> >>>>>> that
> >>>>>> the client switch to Windows, unless that was needed for a specific
> >>>>>> job.
> >>>>>> In Nebraska, we purchased Jaws much more for personal use than we did
> >>>>>> for
> >>>>>> work related situations.
> >>>>>> So if FS made a JFL, and people were using Linux, rehab would indeed
> >>>>>> purchase a JFL product.
> >>>>>> Glenn
> >>>>>> ----- Original Message -----
> >>>>>> From: "Karen Lewellen" <klewellen at shellworld.net>
> >>>>>> To: "K0LNY_Glenn" <glenn at ervin.email>
> >>>>>> Cc: <speakup at linux-speakup.org>; "Milan Zamazal" <pdm at zamazal.org>;
> >>>>>> <Blinux-list at redhat.com>
> >>>>>> Sent: Saturday, August 13, 2022 3:01 PM
> >>>>>> Subject: Re: "Accessibility in Fedora Workstation" (fwd)
> >>>>>>
> >>>>>>
> >>>>>> there was an interesting discussion a month or so back on the blinux
> >>>>>> list
> >>>>>> about how long it took completing tasks in the gui as apposed to say
> >>>>>> command line, the comments were quite informative.
> >>>>>> Still, fs has never marketed largely to the end user. Instead they
> >>>>>> market
> >>>>>> to the American rehab community.
> >>>>>> how much market research has the rehab community done to support the
> >>>>>> need
> >>>>>> for choices?
> >>>>>> How many rehab counselors support training in Linux?
> >>>>>> one comment made by the subject of this thread about poor quality
> >>>>>> speech
> >>>>>> is a fine one...out of the box Linux has few speech choices.
> >>>>>> everyone
> >>>>>> brings their needs to the table there.
> >>>>>>
> >>>>>> if you want to get fs to care about Linux, you need to prove there
> >>>>>> is
> >>>>>> money for them there, from their main source of income.
> >>>>>>
> >>>>>>
> >>>>>>
> >>>>>> On Sat, 13 Aug 2022, K0LNY_Glenn wrote:
> >>>>>>
> >>>>>>> Well since Orca seems to work on so many distros, I don't know why
> >>>>>>> FS
> >>>>>>> would
> >>>>>>> not be able to do the same.
> >>>>>>> If Jaws users could switch into Linux, it would be a real game
> >>>>>>> changer,
> >>>>>>> and
> >>>>>>> I think with lots more Blind Linux users, we would start seeing
> >>>>>>> accessibility in Linux not being a second thought.
> >>>>>>> Glenn
> >>>>>>> ----- Original Message -----
> >>>>>>> From: "Karen Lewellen" <klewellen at shellworld.net>
> >>>>>>> To: "K0LNY_Glenn" <glenn at ervin.email>
> >>>>>>> Cc: <speakup at linux-speakup.org>; "Milan Zamazal" <pdm at zamazal.org>;
> >>>>>>> <Blinux-list at redhat.com>
> >>>>>>> Sent: Saturday, August 13, 2022 1:47 PM
> >>>>>>> Subject: Re: "Accessibility in Fedora Workstation" (fwd)
> >>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>
> >>>>>>> Well technically freedom scientific does not exist any longer, being
> >>>>>>> bought
> >>>>>>> by another company.
> >>>>>>> Still, I can respect why they, or nvda have not created their tools
> >>>>>>> for
> >>>>>>> Linux.
> >>>>>>> That is because as I understand it, Linux is quite like clay. You
> >>>>>>> can
> >>>>>>> mold a distribution into almost anything. there are various
> >>>>>>> personifications of the system, all sorts of ways and changes and
> >>>>>>> options
> >>>>>>> for creativity.
> >>>>>>> however adaptive tools are often extensions of physical
> >>>>>>> characteristics,
> >>>>>>> hands, eyes, ears, brains, combinations of these.
> >>>>>>> To build solid assistive tools one must have a solid foundation as
> >>>>>>> it
> >>>>>>> were. that is part of why there have needed to be so few Apple
> >>>>>>> efforts
> >>>>>>> at
> >>>>>>> inclusion, they created with, and then created in-house adaptive
> >>>>>>> tools
> >>>>>>> for various populations that were built into the system.
> >>>>>>> Although Microsoft did not bother until much later, in theory at
> >>>>>>> least,
> >>>>>>> the
> >>>>>>> consistency of windows is what makes it possible for freedom or the
> >>>>>>> former
> >>>>>>> gw micro or nvda to create something that can in theory work.
> >>>>>>> Floor for the furniture is somewhat solid.
> >>>>>>> Just my thoughts,
> >>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>
> >>>>>>> On Sat, 13 Aug 2022, K0LNY_Glenn wrote:
> >>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>> I would like to see Freedom Scientific make a Jaws For Linux.
> >>>>>>>> JFL
> >>>>>>>> I'd certainly pay the yearly rental fee for it, and it would bring
> >>>>>>>> many
> >>>>>>>> more
> >>>>>>>> users into Linux.
> >>>>>>>> FS could, with its resources, possibly make it more robust than
> >>>>>>>> Orca.
> >>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>> Glenn
> >>>>>>>> ----- Original Message -----
> >>>>>>>> From: "Milan Zamazal" <pdm at zamazal.org>
> >>>>>>>> To: <speakup at linux-speakup.org>
> >>>>>>>> Cc: <Blinux-list at redhat.com>
> >>>>>>>> Sent: Saturday, August 13, 2022 12:08 PM
> >>>>>>>> Subject: Re: "Accessibility in Fedora Workstation" (fwd)
> >>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>>>>> "KL" == Karen Lewellen <klewellen at shellworld.net>
> >>>>>>>>>>>>> writes:
> >>>>>>>> KL> What bothers me most are his lack of actual qualifications,
> >>>>>>>> and
> >>>>>>>> KL> absolute dismissal of what he has not experienced..as if he
> >>>>>>>> KL> defines Linux usage for everyone. That attitude is dangerous,
> >>>>>>>> KL> because he is educating those outside of the accessibility
> >>>>>>>> KL> experiences, who will believe his ignorance is factual. he
> >>>>>>>> has
> >>>>>>>> KL> to be expert, it is his job.
> >>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>> Hi Karen,
> >>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>> I know Lukas personally and I admire his skills and
> >>>>>>>> qualifications.
> >>>>>>>> I
> >>>>>>>> also know first hand that he is open to constructive feedback and
> >>>>>>>> I
> >>>>>>>> believe he??Td be happy to be corrected about possible technical
> >>>>>>>> inaccuracies in the interview. It may be also a good opportunity
> >>>>>>>> to
> >>>>>>>> find out what??Ts possibly missing in making anybody better
> >>>>>>>> informed.
> >>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>> As for ??oabsolute dismissal of what he has not experienced???,
> >>>>>>>> what
> >>>>>>>> reasonable free software alternatives to a less or more standard
> >>>>>>>> desktop
> >>>>>>>> with Orca and a software synthesizer can you see for a common
> >>>>>>>> blind
> >>>>>>>> user
> >>>>>>>> who needs to use a fully working web browser, to read and process
> >>>>>>>> text
> >>>>>>>> documents, to be compatible with other computer users, etc.?
> >>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>> And let??Ts be realistic. We celebrate every single developer
> >>>>>>>> hired
> >>>>>>>> to
> >>>>>>>> improve accessibility. This tells something about the state of
> >>>>>>>> the
> >>>>>>>> matters. We cannot expect that a single person will fix all the
> >>>>>>>> kinds
> >>>>>>>> of accessibility problems in all the environments. Lukas works at
> >>>>>>>> his
> >>>>>>>> job focusing on certain areas currently seen there as urgent ones
> >>>>>>>> and I
> >>>>>>>> appreciate this opportunity. Anybody else seeing a need to work
> >>>>>>>> on
> >>>>>>>> other areas is welcome to contribute to whatever sees fit, as I
> >>>>>>>> do.
> >>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>> Regards,
> >>>>>>>> Milan
> >>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>
> >>
> >
> > _______________________________________________
> > Blinux-list mailing list
> > Blinux-list at redhat.com
> > https://listman.redhat.com/mailman/listinfo/blinux-list
>
> _______________________________________________
> Blinux-list mailing list
> Blinux-list at redhat.com
> https://listman.redhat.com/mailman/listinfo/blinux-list
>
^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 78+ messages in thread
* "Accessibility in Fedora Workstation" (fwd)
` blinux-list
` blinux-list
` blinux-list
@ ` blinux-list
` blinux-list
2 siblings, 1 reply; 78+ messages in thread
From: blinux-list @ UTC (permalink / raw)
Let me chime in here from the opposition point of view.
Having used both the paid screen readers (JAWS and also GwMicro) and many of the free screen readers, The paid ones may have more features and are probably tuned a bit more closely to work in a specified OS, but the free ones often times offer more latitude when dealing with non-standard content.
Now, some other considerations, not all computer systems can handle a full GUI (case in point: the RaspberryPi 3 series of which I have 1). So, the use of a console there is a must and I use several of the console available screen readers, Like BrltTY, Emacsspeak, Speakup and others). There are times when this is very useful when the full GUI might present some issues.
Now, this doesn?t mean I haven?t stopped using full GUI interfaces. I have, for the most part, stuck with either JAWS or NVDA on windows (what one can?t read, the other might), Voiceover on OS X and any of the half dozen or so screen readers available in Linux (ORCA being the primary for GUI and anything else for console as needed). Each has their flaws and each has their strengths and it doesn?t hurt to know them all. Believe me, try using VI or NANO in a terminal with ORCA. It doesn?t work very well. However, the others work very well there, but not so well inside the GUI. It all depends on what you need to do. It?s called using the right tool for the right job.
-Eric
>From the Central Offices of the Technomage Guild, Tool Maintenance Dept.
> On Aug 16, 2022, at 11:26 AM, Linux for blind general discussion <blinux-list at redhat.com> wrote:
>
> Actually, I'd like to know where you got the idea that it's just a rumor. It is not. I was personally involved at the time, arguing strenuously against the policy. I can give you names of people at the NFB who backed the policy if you'd like.
>
> The NFB's reasoning was that a free screen reader would not be as good as one you had to pay for. They reasoned that Microsoft had little motivation to keep on improving their screen reader but it might be enough to drive Freedom Scientific out of business. As a Linux user, I felt that reasoning was flawed mainly because I felt free, open source screen readers were right around the corner anyway. I believe I was using Speakup and something called Nupernicus on Linux at the time.
>
> This is absolutely not a rumor.
>
>
> On 8/16/22 12:31, K0LNY_Glenn wrote:
>> That is hear-say, an old rumor that has been recycled countless times.
>> Glenn
>> ----- Original Message -----
>> From: "John G. Heim" <jheim at wisc.edu>
>> To: "K0LNY_Glenn" <glenn at ervin.email>; "Butch Bussen"
>> <butchb at shellworld.net>; "Karen Lewellen" <klewellen at shellworld.net>
>> Cc: <speakup at linux-speakup.org>; "Milan Zamazal" <pdm at zamazal.org>;
>> <Blinux-list at redhat.com>
>> Sent: Tuesday, August 16, 2022 11:49 AM
>> Subject: Re: "Accessibility in Fedora Workstation" (fwd)
>>
>>
>> Holy cow! Are you aware that the NFB once asked Microsoft to *NOT*
>> improve Narrator to the point where it would compete with Jaws? If you
>> think the NFB is incapable of forcing choices on people, you are very
>> sadly mistaken.
>>
>>
>>
>> On 8/16/22 09:36, K0LNY_Glenn wrote:
>>> This sort of thing would never happen in Nebraska, or any state where the
>>> agency staff is of the NFB philosophy.
>>> Say what you want about the NFB, no organization is without its problems,
>>> but it is the core philosophy that formed the NFB that knows that society
>>> has low expectations of the Blind, and this is why the NFB believes in
>>> skills and high expectations.
>>> And with that, comes giving respect to the Blind, like the respect of
>>> choice.
>>> Yeah I know about the information of recent about NFB abuse, but this is
>>> organizational issues, unrelated to the philosophy. In fact, the fact
>>> that
>>> it has come up demonstrates that the NFB is no different than any other
>>> organization in interpersonal staff issues.
>>> And choice does not mean training center choices.
>>> Choice isn't always an option, just like if you took a vocational course
>>> in
>>> college, there are things you have to take, so to me, the lack of choice
>>> in
>>> this regard is different than computer software, where all the choices
>>> will
>>> reach the same end result.
>>> In states where the NFB philosophy is embraced, if a client said I want to
>>> use a Mac, or I want Window Eyes, then that is what they would get, no
>>> questions asked.
>>> They would not have to fight to get it.
>>> I simply cannot imagine a counselor saying that someone has to use the
>>> software that the counselor wants them to have.
>>> When I hear that stuff, I almost cannot believe it, but I know Butch well
>>> enough to know he wouldn't make that up.
>>>
>>> Glenn
>>> ----- Original Message -----
>>> From: "Butch Bussen" <butchb at shellworld.net>
>>> To: "Karen Lewellen" <klewellen at shellworld.net>
>>> Cc: "K0LNY_Glenn" <glenn at ervin.email>; <speakup at linux-speakup.org>; "Milan
>>> Zamazal" <pdm at zamazal.org>; <Blinux-list at redhat.com>
>>> Sent: Tuesday, August 16, 2022 8:18 AM
>>> Subject: Re: "Accessibility in Fedora Workstation" (fwd)
>>>
>>>
>>> You are right. In Nevada, freedom pushed jaws to the rehab people and
>>> took them out for steak diners and so forth. I fought like hell to get
>>> them to buy window-eyes.
>>> 73
>>> Butch
>>> WA0VJR
>>> Node 3148
>>> Wallace, ks.
>>>
>>>
>>> On Sun, 14 Aug 2022, Karen Lewellen wrote:
>>>
>>>> And where do these employers learn about jaws?
>>>> In fact, provide if you do not mind an example of how this works
>>>> exactly.
>>>> after all, unless I am incorrect, these employers are not personal Jaws
>>>> users, meaning someone they trust continues to sell them on an expensive
>>>> program instead of a largely free one.
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> On Sat, 13 Aug 2022, K0LNY_Glenn wrote:
>>>>
>>>>> Karen,
>>>>> Most employers don't want NVDA, and will only allow Jaws.
>>>>> In Nebraska, if an employer said put on whatever works, the counselors
>>>>> will
>>>>> use NVDA, because of the cost of Jaws.
>>>>> If some of the clients in a call center already use Jaws, but don't
>>>>> know
>>>>> NVDA, the counselor will use Jaws, because the other clients will need
>>>>> to
>>>>> learn one of the two.
>>>>> So it's all choice, but in the workplace, it depends on what the
>>>>> employer
>>>>> will allow.
>>>>> Also, sometimes scripts need to be made, and there are more Jaws
>>>>> scripters
>>>>> available than there are NVDA add-on writers.
>>>>> So this perception that Jaws is forced by rehab, from my 31 years in
>>>>> the
>>>>> business I can say is rubbish.
>>>>> Now, if a counselor did not know how to use NVDA, and either may be
>>>>> chosen,
>>>>> the rehab counselor is able to select the one that the counselor feels
>>>>> is
>>>>> best for the student and for the counselor's teaching.
>>>>> When it comes to part B moneys, which is used for non-vocational
>>>>> purchases,
>>>>> where a lot of Jaws purchases come from, it is in the agency's best
>>>>> interest
>>>>> to spend as little as possible, because that doesn't come back like VR
>>>>> expenditures do.
>>>>> Glenn
>>>>>
>>>>> ----- Original Message -----
>>>>> From: "Karen Lewellen" <klewellen at shellworld.net>
>>>>> To: "K0LNY_Glenn" <glenn at ervin.email>
>>>>> Cc: <speakup at linux-speakup.org>; "Milan Zamazal" <pdm at zamazal.org>;
>>>>> <Blinux-list at redhat.com>
>>>>> Sent: Saturday, August 13, 2022 6:15 PM
>>>>> Subject: Re: "Accessibility in Fedora Workstation" (fwd)
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> The challenge with that example is that, as one often gets reminded,
>>>>> the
>>>>> rehab systems track record for facilitating employment for their
>>>>> clients
>>>>> is quite poor.
>>>>> With a high percentage of unemployment among our clients. Making,
>>>>> speaking personally, your buying Jaws for personal use not really
>>>>> reflecting how the system would respond to an alternative request.
>>>>> Now if someone from organized rehab said, okay freedom scientific, we
>>>>> are
>>>>> creating an employment program where our clients will train in Linux,
>>>>> needing a solid screen reader solution for the system. We will give
>>>>> you
>>>>> an
>>>>> exclusive development contract for s millions to create the tool.
>>>>> Fs would likely say where do we sign?
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> On Sat, 13 Aug 2022, K0LNY_Glenn wrote:
>>>>>
>>>>>> True enough, but largely, rehab people typically use Windows at work,
>>>>>> and
>>>>>> probably at home, but they need to cater to the needs of the client.
>>>>>> If a client used Linux, I doubt that any rehab counselor would
>>>>>> advocate
>>>>>> that
>>>>>> the client switch to Windows, unless that was needed for a specific
>>>>>> job.
>>>>>> In Nebraska, we purchased Jaws much more for personal use than we did
>>>>>> for
>>>>>> work related situations.
>>>>>> So if FS made a JFL, and people were using Linux, rehab would indeed
>>>>>> purchase a JFL product.
>>>>>> Glenn
>>>>>> ----- Original Message -----
>>>>>> From: "Karen Lewellen" <klewellen at shellworld.net>
>>>>>> To: "K0LNY_Glenn" <glenn at ervin.email>
>>>>>> Cc: <speakup at linux-speakup.org>; "Milan Zamazal" <pdm at zamazal.org>;
>>>>>> <Blinux-list at redhat.com>
>>>>>> Sent: Saturday, August 13, 2022 3:01 PM
>>>>>> Subject: Re: "Accessibility in Fedora Workstation" (fwd)
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>> there was an interesting discussion a month or so back on the blinux
>>>>>> list
>>>>>> about how long it took completing tasks in the gui as apposed to say
>>>>>> command line, the comments were quite informative.
>>>>>> Still, fs has never marketed largely to the end user. Instead they
>>>>>> market
>>>>>> to the American rehab community.
>>>>>> how much market research has the rehab community done to support the
>>>>>> need
>>>>>> for choices?
>>>>>> How many rehab counselors support training in Linux?
>>>>>> one comment made by the subject of this thread about poor quality
>>>>>> speech
>>>>>> is a fine one...out of the box Linux has few speech choices.
>>>>>> everyone
>>>>>> brings their needs to the table there.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> if you want to get fs to care about Linux, you need to prove there
>>>>>> is
>>>>>> money for them there, from their main source of income.
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>> On Sat, 13 Aug 2022, K0LNY_Glenn wrote:
>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Well since Orca seems to work on so many distros, I don't know why
>>>>>>> FS
>>>>>>> would
>>>>>>> not be able to do the same.
>>>>>>> If Jaws users could switch into Linux, it would be a real game
>>>>>>> changer,
>>>>>>> and
>>>>>>> I think with lots more Blind Linux users, we would start seeing
>>>>>>> accessibility in Linux not being a second thought.
>>>>>>> Glenn
>>>>>>> ----- Original Message -----
>>>>>>> From: "Karen Lewellen" <klewellen at shellworld.net>
>>>>>>> To: "K0LNY_Glenn" <glenn at ervin.email>
>>>>>>> Cc: <speakup at linux-speakup.org>; "Milan Zamazal" <pdm at zamazal.org>;
>>>>>>> <Blinux-list at redhat.com>
>>>>>>> Sent: Saturday, August 13, 2022 1:47 PM
>>>>>>> Subject: Re: "Accessibility in Fedora Workstation" (fwd)
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Well technically freedom scientific does not exist any longer, being
>>>>>>> bought
>>>>>>> by another company.
>>>>>>> Still, I can respect why they, or nvda have not created their tools
>>>>>>> for
>>>>>>> Linux.
>>>>>>> That is because as I understand it, Linux is quite like clay. You
>>>>>>> can
>>>>>>> mold a distribution into almost anything. there are various
>>>>>>> personifications of the system, all sorts of ways and changes and
>>>>>>> options
>>>>>>> for creativity.
>>>>>>> however adaptive tools are often extensions of physical
>>>>>>> characteristics,
>>>>>>> hands, eyes, ears, brains, combinations of these.
>>>>>>> To build solid assistive tools one must have a solid foundation as
>>>>>>> it
>>>>>>> were. that is part of why there have needed to be so few Apple
>>>>>>> efforts
>>>>>>> at
>>>>>>> inclusion, they created with, and then created in-house adaptive
>>>>>>> tools
>>>>>>> for various populations that were built into the system.
>>>>>>> Although Microsoft did not bother until much later, in theory at
>>>>>>> least,
>>>>>>> the
>>>>>>> consistency of windows is what makes it possible for freedom or the
>>>>>>> former
>>>>>>> gw micro or nvda to create something that can in theory work.
>>>>>>> Floor for the furniture is somewhat solid.
>>>>>>> Just my thoughts,
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> On Sat, 13 Aug 2022, K0LNY_Glenn wrote:
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> I would like to see Freedom Scientific make a Jaws For Linux.
>>>>>>>> JFL
>>>>>>>> I'd certainly pay the yearly rental fee for it, and it would bring
>>>>>>>> many
>>>>>>>> more
>>>>>>>> users into Linux.
>>>>>>>> FS could, with its resources, possibly make it more robust than
>>>>>>>> Orca.
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> Glenn
>>>>>>>> ----- Original Message -----
>>>>>>>> From: "Milan Zamazal" <pdm at zamazal.org>
>>>>>>>> To: <speakup at linux-speakup.org>
>>>>>>>> Cc: <Blinux-list at redhat.com>
>>>>>>>> Sent: Saturday, August 13, 2022 12:08 PM
>>>>>>>> Subject: Re: "Accessibility in Fedora Workstation" (fwd)
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>> "KL" == Karen Lewellen <klewellen at shellworld.net>
>>>>>>>>>>>>> writes:
>>>>>>>> KL> What bothers me most are his lack of actual qualifications,
>>>>>>>> and
>>>>>>>> KL> absolute dismissal of what he has not experienced..as if he
>>>>>>>> KL> defines Linux usage for everyone. That attitude is dangerous,
>>>>>>>> KL> because he is educating those outside of the accessibility
>>>>>>>> KL> experiences, who will believe his ignorance is factual. he
>>>>>>>> has
>>>>>>>> KL> to be expert, it is his job.
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> Hi Karen,
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> I know Lukas personally and I admire his skills and
>>>>>>>> qualifications.
>>>>>>>> I
>>>>>>>> also know first hand that he is open to constructive feedback and
>>>>>>>> I
>>>>>>>> believe he??Td be happy to be corrected about possible technical
>>>>>>>> inaccuracies in the interview. It may be also a good opportunity
>>>>>>>> to
>>>>>>>> find out what??Ts possibly missing in making anybody better
>>>>>>>> informed.
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> As for ??oabsolute dismissal of what he has not experienced???,
>>>>>>>> what
>>>>>>>> reasonable free software alternatives to a less or more standard
>>>>>>>> desktop
>>>>>>>> with Orca and a software synthesizer can you see for a common
>>>>>>>> blind
>>>>>>>> user
>>>>>>>> who needs to use a fully working web browser, to read and process
>>>>>>>> text
>>>>>>>> documents, to be compatible with other computer users, etc.?
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> And let??Ts be realistic. We celebrate every single developer
>>>>>>>> hired
>>>>>>>> to
>>>>>>>> improve accessibility. This tells something about the state of
>>>>>>>> the
>>>>>>>> matters. We cannot expect that a single person will fix all the
>>>>>>>> kinds
>>>>>>>> of accessibility problems in all the environments. Lukas works at
>>>>>>>> his
>>>>>>>> job focusing on certain areas currently seen there as urgent ones
>>>>>>>> and I
>>>>>>>> appreciate this opportunity. Anybody else seeing a need to work
>>>>>>>> on
>>>>>>>> other areas is welcome to contribute to whatever sees fit, as I
>>>>>>>> do.
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> Regards,
>>>>>>>> Milan
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>
>>
>
> _______________________________________________
> Blinux-list mailing list
> Blinux-list at redhat.com
> https://listman.redhat.com/mailman/listinfo/blinux-list
^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 78+ messages in thread
* "Accessibility in Fedora Workstation" (fwd)
[not found] <202208161941.27GJf2ce015606@nfbcal.org>
@ ` blinux-list
0 siblings, 0 replies; 78+ messages in thread
From: blinux-list @ UTC (permalink / raw)
Brian, this is why some people call the NFB a cult. No matter how
clearly wrong it is, they never admit a mistake.
Think about what you are saying. About the time this controversy was at
its height, I was volunteering teaching elderly, visually impaired
people to use a computer. Imagine their reaction when I told them a
screen reader for Windows would run somewhere around $1,000.
Essentially, you're arguing that those elderly people should pay a
$1,000 tax in a effort to keep Freedom Scientific profitable. Do you
know what $1,000 means to an elderly, visually impaired person?
An effor, by the way, which was doomed to failure if it was needed at
all. Free screen readers were, and still are, the wave of the future. A
free screen reader for Windows was coming anyway. Linux, Mac OS, IOS,
and Android all have screen readers built into the operating system. And
don't say these developments could not be anticipated. I argued like a
bulldog for them.
PS: VoiceOver for MacOS is absolutely not a point in your favor. First
of all, people love VoiceOver for MacOS. I doubt customer satisfaction
with Jaws was ever greater than that for VoiceOver. But more
importantly, the mere existence of VoiceOver shows the flaw in the NFB's
logic. The NFB? simply didn't have the ability to protect Jaws from
competition from fre screen readers.
On 8/16/22 14:41, Brian Buhrow wrote:
> hello. I get that this is a list for an open source project and I am a strong advocate
> for open source software -- I too make my living using and working on it every day. In fact,
> I'm writing this using an open source screen reader, yasr.
>
> Yes, we got many of the details wrong in terms of how things have played out over time,
> but I think the over all concept was more or less correct and I think the jury is still out as
> to whether we were completely wrong. With the exception of Linux and the BSD's which are
> completely open source, the screen readers available today for commercial operating systems,
> i.e. Windows, iOS, Mac OSX and Android, are totally dependent on the accessibility APIs the
> vendors of those operating systems provide. If the data coming out of those APIs isn't good or
> if the APIs aren't performant, then the screen reader experience wil be terrible regardless of
> which one is in use. As I wrote earlier, Apple has already shut the door on third party screen
> reader development -- it's VoiceOver or the highway.
>
> Microsoft has made the argument that by building Narrator, they can learn how bad their
> APIs are and improve them for their own use, as well as the use of the third party screen
> readers. This is a reasonable argument, as long as they're willing to continue sharing those
> APIs with third party screen reader developers. But, if they decide they want to go down the
> road of Apple at some point, third party screen reader developers, and their users, are out in
> the cold. That is more true today than it was, say, 10 or 15 years ago.
>
> The irony is, and I'm sure many of the folks on this list wil disagree with this
> statement, that in some way, the argument we made about these concerns to Microsoft helped spur
> the development of NVDA, a project I thoroughly endorse. Microsoft has been a very large
> contributor to the NVDA effort, something they did, in part, to allay our concerns, and to show
> they support open source software.
>
> As to my comment about the jury still being out on the issue, Microsoft continues to push
> Narrator forward. And, based on discussions we've had with them recently, they are discovering
> just how challenging it can be to make a screen reader work well. It is my perception that
> they are still toying with the idea of going down the Apple road in some of their internal
> discussions, but that they are coming to the realization about how bad of an idea this really
> is. It is that realization that gives me hope that we will continue to have choices when it
> comes to access software on Windows going forward and that the Linux companies, i.e.
> Cannonical, Red Hat and the others, will decide the best way to leverage accessibility is to
> continue to improve the access software that's already out there.
>
> -Brian
^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 78+ messages in thread
* "Accessibility in Fedora Workstation" (fwd)
` blinux-list
` blinux-list
@ ` blinux-list
` blinux-list
2 siblings, 0 replies; 78+ messages in thread
From: blinux-list @ UTC (permalink / raw)
I'm on my third stint as an NFB member, and am quite intrigued. Who were
the people involved?? Also, for the record, who's writing the message below?
I wasn't in NFB at the time of whatever happened.? I'd heard that it was
kind of a deal between Freedom Scientific (or whatever it was then) and
Microsoft, but I had no specifics.
Al
On 8/16/22 14:26, Linux for blind general discussion wrote:
> Actually, I'd like to know where you got the idea that it's just a
> rumor. It is not. I was personally involved at the time, arguing
> strenuously against the policy. I can give you names of people at the
> NFB who backed the policy if you'd like.
>
> The NFB's reasoning was that a free screen reader would not be as good
> as one you had to pay for. They reasoned that Microsoft had little
> motivation to keep on improving their screen reader but it might be
> enough to drive Freedom Scientific out of business. As a Linux user, I
> felt that reasoning was flawed mainly because I felt free, open
> source? screen readers were right around the corner anyway. I believe
> I was using Speakup and something called Nupernicus on Linux at the time.
>
> This is absolutely not a rumor.
>
>
> On 8/16/22 12:31, K0LNY_Glenn wrote:
>> That is hear-say, an old rumor that has been recycled countless times.
>> Glenn
>> ----- Original Message -----
>> From: "John G. Heim" <jheim at wisc.edu>
>> To: "K0LNY_Glenn" <glenn at ervin.email>; "Butch Bussen"
>> <butchb at shellworld.net>; "Karen Lewellen" <klewellen at shellworld.net>
>> Cc: <speakup at linux-speakup.org>; "Milan Zamazal" <pdm at zamazal.org>;
>> <Blinux-list at redhat.com>
>> Sent: Tuesday, August 16, 2022 11:49 AM
>> Subject: Re: "Accessibility in Fedora Workstation" (fwd)
>>
>>
>> Holy cow! Are you aware that the NFB once asked Microsoft to *NOT*
>> improve Narrator to the point where it would compete with Jaws? If you
>> think the NFB is incapable of forcing choices on people, you are very
>> sadly mistaken.
>>
>>
>>
>> On 8/16/22 09:36, K0LNY_Glenn wrote:
>>> This sort of thing would never happen in Nebraska, or any state
>>> where the
>>> agency staff is of the NFB philosophy.
>>> Say what you want about the NFB, no organization is without its
>>> problems,
>>> but it is the core philosophy that formed the NFB that knows that
>>> society
>>> has low expectations of the Blind, and this is why the NFB believes in
>>> skills and high expectations.
>>> And with that, comes giving respect to the Blind, like the respect of
>>> choice.
>>> Yeah I know about the information of recent about NFB abuse, but
>>> this is
>>> organizational issues, unrelated to the philosophy.? In fact, the fact
>>> that
>>> it has come up demonstrates that the NFB is no different than any other
>>> organization in interpersonal staff issues.
>>> And choice does not mean training center choices.
>>> Choice isn't always an option, just like if you took a vocational
>>> course
>>> in
>>> college, there are things you have to take, so to me, the lack of
>>> choice
>>> in
>>> this regard is different than computer software, where all the choices
>>> will
>>> reach the same end result.
>>> In states where the NFB philosophy is embraced, if a client said I
>>> want to
>>> use a Mac, or I want Window Eyes, then that is what they would get, no
>>> questions asked.
>>> They would not have to fight to get it.
>>> I simply cannot imagine a counselor saying that someone has to use the
>>> software that the counselor wants them to have.
>>> When I hear that stuff, I almost cannot believe it, but I know Butch
>>> well
>>> enough to know he wouldn't make that up.
>>>
>>> Glenn
>>> ----- Original Message -----
>>> From: "Butch Bussen" <butchb at shellworld.net>
>>> To: "Karen Lewellen" <klewellen at shellworld.net>
>>> Cc: "K0LNY_Glenn" <glenn at ervin.email>; <speakup at linux-speakup.org>;
>>> "Milan
>>> Zamazal" <pdm at zamazal.org>; <Blinux-list at redhat.com>
>>> Sent: Tuesday, August 16, 2022 8:18 AM
>>> Subject: Re: "Accessibility in Fedora Workstation" (fwd)
>>>
>>>
>>> You are right.? In Nevada, freedom pushed jaws to the rehab people and
>>> took them out for steak diners and so forth.? I fought like hell to get
>>> them to buy window-eyes.
>>> 73
>>> Butch
>>> WA0VJR
>>> Node 3148
>>> Wallace, ks.
>>>
>>>
>>> On Sun, 14 Aug 2022, Karen Lewellen wrote:
>>>
>>>> And where do these employers learn about jaws?
>>>> In fact, provide if you do not mind an example of how? this works
>>>> exactly.
>>>> after all, unless I am incorrect, these employers are not personal
>>>> Jaws
>>>> users, meaning someone they trust continues to sell them on an
>>>> expensive
>>>> program instead of a largely free one.
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> On Sat, 13 Aug 2022, K0LNY_Glenn wrote:
>>>>
>>>>> ?? Karen,
>>>>> ?? Most employers don't want NVDA, and will only allow Jaws.
>>>>> ?? In Nebraska, if an employer said put on whatever works, the
>>>>> counselors
>>>>> ?? will
>>>>> ?? use NVDA, because of the cost of Jaws.
>>>>> ?? If some of the clients in a call center already use Jaws, but
>>>>> don't
>>>>> know
>>>>> ?? NVDA, the counselor will use Jaws, because the other clients
>>>>> will need
>>>>> to
>>>>> ?? learn one of the two.
>>>>> ?? So it's all choice, but in the workplace, it depends on what the
>>>>> employer
>>>>> ?? will allow.
>>>>> ?? Also, sometimes scripts need to be made, and there are more Jaws
>>>>> scripters
>>>>> ?? available than there are NVDA add-on writers.
>>>>> ?? So this perception that Jaws is forced by rehab, from my 31
>>>>> years in
>>>>> the
>>>>> ?? business I can say is rubbish.
>>>>> ?? Now, if a counselor did not know how to use NVDA, and either
>>>>> may be
>>>>> ?? chosen,
>>>>> ?? the rehab counselor is able to select the one that the
>>>>> counselor feels
>>>>> is
>>>>> ?? best for the student and for the counselor's teaching.
>>>>> ?? When it comes to part B moneys, which is used for non-vocational
>>>>> ?? purchases,
>>>>> ?? where a lot of Jaws purchases come from, it is in the agency's
>>>>> best
>>>>> ?? interest
>>>>> ?? to spend as little as possible, because that doesn't come back
>>>>> like VR
>>>>> ?? expenditures do.
>>>>> ?? Glenn
>>>>>
>>>>> ?? ----- Original Message -----
>>>>> ?? From: "Karen Lewellen" <klewellen at shellworld.net>
>>>>> ?? To: "K0LNY_Glenn" <glenn at ervin.email>
>>>>> ?? Cc: <speakup at linux-speakup.org>; "Milan Zamazal"
>>>>> <pdm at zamazal.org>;
>>>>> ?? <Blinux-list at redhat.com>
>>>>> ?? Sent: Saturday, August 13, 2022 6:15 PM
>>>>> ?? Subject: Re: "Accessibility in Fedora Workstation" (fwd)
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> ?? The challenge with that example is that, as one often gets
>>>>> reminded,
>>>>> the
>>>>> ?? rehab systems track record for facilitating? employment for their
>>>>> clients
>>>>> ?? is quite poor.
>>>>> ?? With a high percentage of unemployment among our clients.? Making,
>>>>> ?? speaking personally, your buying Jaws for personal use not really
>>>>> ?? reflecting how the system would respond to an alternative request.
>>>>> ?? Now if someone from organized rehab said, okay freedom
>>>>> scientific, we
>>>>> are
>>>>> ?? creating an employment program where our clients will train in
>>>>> Linux,
>>>>> ?? needing a solid screen reader solution for the system. We will
>>>>> give
>>>>> you
>>>>> ?? an
>>>>> ?? exclusive development contract for s millions to create the tool.
>>>>> ?? Fs would likely say where do we sign?
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> ?? On Sat, 13 Aug 2022, K0LNY_Glenn wrote:
>>>>>
>>>>>> ?? True enough, but largely, rehab people typically use Windows
>>>>>> at work,
>>>>>> ?? and
>>>>>> ?? probably at home, but they need to cater to the needs of the
>>>>>> client.
>>>>>> ?? If a client used Linux, I doubt that any rehab counselor would
>>>>>> advocate
>>>>>> ?? that
>>>>>> ?? the client switch to Windows, unless that was needed for a
>>>>>> specific
>>>>>> job.
>>>>>> ?? In Nebraska, we purchased Jaws much more for personal use than
>>>>>> we did
>>>>>> ?? for
>>>>>> ?? work related situations.
>>>>>> ?? So if FS made a JFL, and people were using Linux, rehab would
>>>>>> indeed
>>>>>> ?? purchase a JFL product.
>>>>>> ?? Glenn
>>>>>> ?? ----- Original Message -----
>>>>>> ?? From: "Karen Lewellen" <klewellen at shellworld.net>
>>>>>> ?? To: "K0LNY_Glenn" <glenn at ervin.email>
>>>>>> ?? Cc: <speakup at linux-speakup.org>; "Milan Zamazal"
>>>>>> <pdm at zamazal.org>;
>>>>>> ?? <Blinux-list at redhat.com>
>>>>>> ?? Sent: Saturday, August 13, 2022 3:01 PM
>>>>>> ?? Subject: Re: "Accessibility in Fedora Workstation" (fwd)
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>> ?? there was an interesting discussion a month or so back on the
>>>>>> blinux
>>>>>> ?? list
>>>>>> ?? about how long it took completing tasks in the gui as apposed
>>>>>> to say
>>>>>> ?? command line,? the comments were quite informative.
>>>>>> ?? Still, fs has never marketed largely to the end user. Instead
>>>>>> they
>>>>>> ?? market
>>>>>> ?? to the American rehab community.
>>>>>> ?? how much market research has? the rehab community done to
>>>>>> support the
>>>>>> ?? need
>>>>>> ?? for choices?
>>>>>> ?? How many rehab counselors support? training in Linux?
>>>>>> ?? one comment made by the subject of this thread about poor quality
>>>>>> speech
>>>>>> ?? is a fine one...out of the box Linux has few speech choices.
>>>>>> everyone
>>>>>> ?? brings their needs to the table there.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> ?? if you want to get fs to care about Linux, you? need to prove
>>>>>> there
>>>>>> is
>>>>>> ?? money for? them there, from their main source of income.
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>> ?? On Sat, 13 Aug 2022, K0LNY_Glenn wrote:
>>>>>>
>>>>>>> ?? Well since Orca seems to work on so many distros, I don't
>>>>>>> know why
>>>>>>> FS
>>>>>>> ?? would
>>>>>>> ?? not be able to do the same.
>>>>>>> ?? If Jaws users could switch into Linux, it would be a real game
>>>>>>> ?? changer,
>>>>>>> ?? and
>>>>>>> ?? I think with lots more Blind Linux users, we would start seeing
>>>>>>> ?? accessibility in Linux not being a second thought.
>>>>>>> ?? Glenn
>>>>>>> ?? ----- Original Message -----
>>>>>>> ?? From: "Karen Lewellen" <klewellen at shellworld.net>
>>>>>>> ?? To: "K0LNY_Glenn" <glenn at ervin.email>
>>>>>>> ?? Cc: <speakup at linux-speakup.org>; "Milan Zamazal"
>>>>>>> <pdm at zamazal.org>;
>>>>>>> ?? <Blinux-list at redhat.com>
>>>>>>> ?? Sent: Saturday, August 13, 2022 1:47 PM
>>>>>>> ?? Subject: Re: "Accessibility in Fedora Workstation" (fwd)
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> ?? Well technically freedom scientific does not exist any
>>>>>>> longer, being
>>>>>>> ?? bought
>>>>>>> ?? by another company.
>>>>>>> ?? Still, I can respect why they, or nvda have not created their
>>>>>>> tools
>>>>>>> ?? for
>>>>>>> ?? Linux.
>>>>>>> ?? That is because as I understand it, Linux is? quite like
>>>>>>> clay. You
>>>>>>> can
>>>>>>> ?? mold a distribution into almost anything. there are various
>>>>>>> ?? personifications of the system, all sorts of ways and changes
>>>>>>> and
>>>>>>> ?? options
>>>>>>> ?? for creativity.
>>>>>>> ?? however adaptive tools are often extensions of physical
>>>>>>> ?? characteristics,
>>>>>>> ?? hands, eyes, ears, brains, combinations of these.
>>>>>>> ?? To build solid assistive tools one must have a solid?
>>>>>>> foundation as
>>>>>>> it
>>>>>>> ?? were.? that is part of why there have needed to be so few Apple
>>>>>>> ?? efforts
>>>>>>> ?? at
>>>>>>> ?? inclusion, they? created? with, and then created in-house
>>>>>>> adaptive
>>>>>>> ?? tools
>>>>>>> ?? for various? populations that were built into the system.
>>>>>>> ?? Although Microsoft did not bother until much later, in theory at
>>>>>>> ?? least,
>>>>>>> ?? the
>>>>>>> ?? consistency of windows is what makes it possible for freedom
>>>>>>> or the
>>>>>>> ?? former
>>>>>>> ?? gw? micro or nvda to create something that can in theory? work.
>>>>>>> ?? Floor for the furniture is somewhat solid.
>>>>>>> ?? Just my thoughts,
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> ?? On Sat, 13 Aug 2022, K0LNY_Glenn wrote:
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> ?? I would like to see Freedom Scientific make a Jaws For Linux.
>>>>>>>> ?? JFL
>>>>>>>> ?? I'd certainly pay the yearly rental fee for it, and it would
>>>>>>>> bring
>>>>>>>> ?? many
>>>>>>>> ?? more
>>>>>>>> ?? users into Linux.
>>>>>>>> ?? FS could, with its resources, possibly make it more robust than
>>>>>>>> ?? Orca.
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> ?? Glenn
>>>>>>>> ?? ----- Original Message -----
>>>>>>>> ?? From: "Milan Zamazal" <pdm at zamazal.org>
>>>>>>>> ?? To: <speakup at linux-speakup.org>
>>>>>>>> ?? Cc: <Blinux-list at redhat.com>
>>>>>>>> ?? Sent: Saturday, August 13, 2022 12:08 PM
>>>>>>>> ?? Subject: Re: "Accessibility in Fedora Workstation" (fwd)
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>> ?? "KL" == Karen Lewellen <klewellen at shellworld.net>
>>>>>>>>>>>>> writes:
>>>>>>>> KL>? What bothers me most are his lack of actual qualifications,
>>>>>>>> and
>>>>>>>> KL>? absolute dismissal of what he has not experienced..as if he
>>>>>>>> KL>? defines Linux usage for everyone.? That attitude is
>>>>>>>> dangerous,
>>>>>>>> KL>? because he is educating those outside of the accessibility
>>>>>>>> KL>? experiences, who will believe his ignorance is factual.? he
>>>>>>>> has
>>>>>>>> KL>? to be expert, it is his job.
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> ?? Hi Karen,
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> ?? I know Lukas personally and I admire his skills and
>>>>>>>> qualifications.
>>>>>>>> ?? I
>>>>>>>> ?? also know first hand that he is open to constructive
>>>>>>>> feedback and
>>>>>>>> I
>>>>>>>> ?? believe he??Td be happy to be corrected about possible
>>>>>>>> technical
>>>>>>>> ?? inaccuracies in the interview.? It may be also a good
>>>>>>>> opportunity
>>>>>>>> to
>>>>>>>> ?? find out what??Ts possibly missing in making anybody better
>>>>>>>> ?? informed.
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> ?? As for ??oabsolute dismissal of what he has not experienced???,
>>>>>>>> what
>>>>>>>> ?? reasonable free software alternatives to a less or more
>>>>>>>> standard
>>>>>>>> ?? desktop
>>>>>>>> ?? with Orca and a software synthesizer can you see for a common
>>>>>>>> blind
>>>>>>>> ?? user
>>>>>>>> ?? who needs to use a fully working web browser, to read and
>>>>>>>> process
>>>>>>>> ?? text
>>>>>>>> ?? documents, to be compatible with other computer users, etc.?
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> ?? And let??Ts be realistic.? We celebrate every single developer
>>>>>>>> hired
>>>>>>>> ?? to
>>>>>>>> ?? improve accessibility.? This tells something about the state of
>>>>>>>> the
>>>>>>>> ?? matters.? We cannot expect that a single person will fix all
>>>>>>>> the
>>>>>>>> ?? kinds
>>>>>>>> ?? of accessibility problems in all the environments.? Lukas
>>>>>>>> works at
>>>>>>>> ?? his
>>>>>>>> ?? job focusing on certain areas currently seen there as urgent
>>>>>>>> ones
>>>>>>>> ?? and I
>>>>>>>> ?? appreciate this opportunity.? Anybody else seeing a need to
>>>>>>>> work
>>>>>>>> on
>>>>>>>> ?? other areas is welcome to contribute to whatever sees fit, as I
>>>>>>>> do.
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> ?? Regards,
>>>>>>>> ?? Milan
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>
>>
>
> _______________________________________________
> Blinux-list mailing list
> Blinux-list at redhat.com
> https://listman.redhat.com/mailman/listinfo/blinux-list
^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 78+ messages in thread
* "Accessibility in Fedora Workstation" (fwd)
[not found] <202208161814.27GIEKUm029606@nfbcal.org>
` blinux-list
@ ` blinux-list
1 sibling, 0 replies; 78+ messages in thread
From: blinux-list @ UTC (permalink / raw)
Hi Brian,
Thank you for providing this context.
What concerns me about your example is even greater.
Just how does a member of the general public, finding they must use a
screen reader for any number of reasons, even learn they have such an
option as that switch?
Karen
On Tue, 16 Aug 2022, Brian Buhrow wrote:
> hello. Having participated in the debate with Microsoft about narrator, let me see if I
> can provide a bit of context. When Microsoft began putting a real effort into Narrator, there
> wer those of us who were concerned that it would put Freedom scientific out of business and,
> thus, potentially, remove accessibility choices for blind users, especially for folks who were
> currently employed using JAWS or, at the time, GW Micro. Exhibit A was, and is, Apple with
> VoiceOver. If you want to use Apple products with access technology your choice is, well,
> VoiceOver. If it doesn't work for you, well then, tough on you. That's also true of Android
> with Talkback and Brailleback. Yes, Brltty works on Android, but it relies on the access
> provided by Talkback and Brailleback to get its data, so if Talkback and Brailleback can't see
> it, it isn't visible nonvisually.
> It takes a lot of effort to make a good screen reader and it takes even more effort to
> keep it running well. The argument ran like this: if Microsoft put a huge amount of effort
> into getting Narrator working well, would they continue to provide the hooks and data Freedom
> Scientific and NVDA needed to make their products work? And, what if Narrator was deemed good
> enough by Microsoft, but didn't work for folks who were trying to hold down jobs, but JAWS and,
> at the time GW Micro, couldn't continue making their products function because they weren't
> getting what they needed from Microsoft? what we said was we didn't want Microsoft to work on
> Narrator at the expense of continuing to develop and share their access API's with third party
> screen reader providers.
> While it's true the accessibility scene hasn't played out exactly as we described it in
> terms of the time frame we laid out, it is true that, over time, accessibility options for
> Windows users are dwindling. Case and point, if you purchase the tablet version of Windows, or
> the stock home edition of Windows, by default, you cannot use any screen reader other than
> Narrator on that installation unless you flip a magic switch in that installation to enable the
> full Windows experience. In addition to allowing third party screen readers, that switch also
> allows the installation of unsigned software outside of the Microsoft store. Microsoft claims
> they will never disable the ability to flip that switch, but the fact that we are one switch
> away from not being able to use the screen reader of our choice on Windows, is, in my view, an
> erosion of access. Remember, there was a time when Microsoft said it would never release a
> Windows version 11.
>
> So, while it may be that our message was mis-interpreted, and we may have not stated it as
> well as we should have, the goal of the message was, in fact, to expand accessibility choices,
> not to diminish them.
>
> -Brian
>
>
>
^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 78+ messages in thread
* "Accessibility in Fedora Workstation" (fwd)
[not found] ` <04c401d8b197$94163110$80ffa8c0@Win7VM>
@ ` blinux-list
0 siblings, 0 replies; 78+ messages in thread
From: blinux-list @ UTC (permalink / raw)
lol...addressing the entire convention?
Shortly before freedom scientific further limited choices by taking gw
micro off the table?
Long after apple was successfully building screen reader softer into the
operating system?
Linux too for that matter?
I think not.
On Tue, 16 Aug 2022, K0LNY_Glenn wrote:
> Well that could have been a misinformed member, and possibly nobody agreed
> with him.
> And, at the time, that may have been the case.
> Glenn
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: "Karen Lewellen" <klewellen at shellworld.net>
> To: "K0LNY_Glenn" <glenn at ervin.email>
> Cc: "Butch Bussen" <butchb at shellworld.net>; "John G. Heim" <jheim at wisc.edu>;
> <speakup at linux-speakup.org>; "Milan Zamazal" <pdm at zamazal.org>;
> <Blinux-list at redhat.com>
> Sent: Tuesday, August 16, 2022 12:39 PM
> Subject: Re: "Accessibility in Fedora Workstation" (fwd)
>
>
> actually, I have a copy I believe of a speech from a convention where an
> nfb member stated that built in screen readers were bad for the
> blind...so, I doubt that rumor is false.
>
>
>
> On Tue, 16 Aug 2022, K0LNY_Glenn wrote:
>
>> That is hear-say, an old rumor that has been recycled countless times.
>> Glenn
>> ----- Original Message -----
>> From: "John G. Heim" <jheim at wisc.edu>
>> To: "K0LNY_Glenn" <glenn at ervin.email>; "Butch Bussen"
>> <butchb at shellworld.net>; "Karen Lewellen" <klewellen at shellworld.net>
>> Cc: <speakup at linux-speakup.org>; "Milan Zamazal" <pdm at zamazal.org>;
>> <Blinux-list at redhat.com>
>> Sent: Tuesday, August 16, 2022 11:49 AM
>> Subject: Re: "Accessibility in Fedora Workstation" (fwd)
>>
>>
>> Holy cow! Are you aware that the NFB once asked Microsoft to *NOT*
>> improve Narrator to the point where it would compete with Jaws? If you
>> think the NFB is incapable of forcing choices on people, you are very
>> sadly mistaken.
>>
>>
>>
>> On 8/16/22 09:36, K0LNY_Glenn wrote:
>>> This sort of thing would never happen in Nebraska, or any state where the
>>> agency staff is of the NFB philosophy.
>>> Say what you want about the NFB, no organization is without its problems,
>>> but it is the core philosophy that formed the NFB that knows that society
>>> has low expectations of the Blind, and this is why the NFB believes in
>>> skills and high expectations.
>>> And with that, comes giving respect to the Blind, like the respect of
>>> choice.
>>> Yeah I know about the information of recent about NFB abuse, but this is
>>> organizational issues, unrelated to the philosophy. In fact, the fact
>>> that
>>> it has come up demonstrates that the NFB is no different than any other
>>> organization in interpersonal staff issues.
>>> And choice does not mean training center choices.
>>> Choice isn't always an option, just like if you took a vocational course
>>> in
>>> college, there are things you have to take, so to me, the lack of choice
>>> in
>>> this regard is different than computer software, where all the choices
>>> will
>>> reach the same end result.
>>> In states where the NFB philosophy is embraced, if a client said I want
>>> to
>>> use a Mac, or I want Window Eyes, then that is what they would get, no
>>> questions asked.
>>> They would not have to fight to get it.
>>> I simply cannot imagine a counselor saying that someone has to use the
>>> software that the counselor wants them to have.
>>> When I hear that stuff, I almost cannot believe it, but I know Butch well
>>> enough to know he wouldn't make that up.
>>>
>>> Glenn
>>> ----- Original Message -----
>>> From: "Butch Bussen" <butchb at shellworld.net>
>>> To: "Karen Lewellen" <klewellen at shellworld.net>
>>> Cc: "K0LNY_Glenn" <glenn at ervin.email>; <speakup at linux-speakup.org>;
>>> "Milan
>>> Zamazal" <pdm at zamazal.org>; <Blinux-list at redhat.com>
>>> Sent: Tuesday, August 16, 2022 8:18 AM
>>> Subject: Re: "Accessibility in Fedora Workstation" (fwd)
>>>
>>>
>>> You are right. In Nevada, freedom pushed jaws to the rehab people and
>>> took them out for steak diners and so forth. I fought like hell to get
>>> them to buy window-eyes.
>>> 73
>>> Butch
>>> WA0VJR
>>> Node 3148
>>> Wallace, ks.
>>>
>>>
>>> On Sun, 14 Aug 2022, Karen Lewellen wrote:
>>>
>>>> And where do these employers learn about jaws?
>>>> In fact, provide if you do not mind an example of how this works
>>>> exactly.
>>>> after all, unless I am incorrect, these employers are not personal Jaws
>>>> users, meaning someone they trust continues to sell them on an expensive
>>>> program instead of a largely free one.
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> On Sat, 13 Aug 2022, K0LNY_Glenn wrote:
>>>>
>>>>> Karen,
>>>>> Most employers don't want NVDA, and will only allow Jaws.
>>>>> In Nebraska, if an employer said put on whatever works, the
>>>>> counselors
>>>>> will
>>>>> use NVDA, because of the cost of Jaws.
>>>>> If some of the clients in a call center already use Jaws, but don't
>>>>> know
>>>>> NVDA, the counselor will use Jaws, because the other clients will
>>>>> need
>>>>> to
>>>>> learn one of the two.
>>>>> So it's all choice, but in the workplace, it depends on what the
>>>>> employer
>>>>> will allow.
>>>>> Also, sometimes scripts need to be made, and there are more Jaws
>>>>> scripters
>>>>> available than there are NVDA add-on writers.
>>>>> So this perception that Jaws is forced by rehab, from my 31 years in
>>>>> the
>>>>> business I can say is rubbish.
>>>>> Now, if a counselor did not know how to use NVDA, and either may be
>>>>> chosen,
>>>>> the rehab counselor is able to select the one that the counselor
>>>>> feels
>>>>> is
>>>>> best for the student and for the counselor's teaching.
>>>>> When it comes to part B moneys, which is used for non-vocational
>>>>> purchases,
>>>>> where a lot of Jaws purchases come from, it is in the agency's best
>>>>> interest
>>>>> to spend as little as possible, because that doesn't come back like
>>>>> VR
>>>>> expenditures do.
>>>>> Glenn
>>>>>
>>>>> ----- Original Message -----
>>>>> From: "Karen Lewellen" <klewellen at shellworld.net>
>>>>> To: "K0LNY_Glenn" <glenn at ervin.email>
>>>>> Cc: <speakup at linux-speakup.org>; "Milan Zamazal" <pdm at zamazal.org>;
>>>>> <Blinux-list at redhat.com>
>>>>> Sent: Saturday, August 13, 2022 6:15 PM
>>>>> Subject: Re: "Accessibility in Fedora Workstation" (fwd)
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> The challenge with that example is that, as one often gets reminded,
>>>>> the
>>>>> rehab systems track record for facilitating employment for their
>>>>> clients
>>>>> is quite poor.
>>>>> With a high percentage of unemployment among our clients. Making,
>>>>> speaking personally, your buying Jaws for personal use not really
>>>>> reflecting how the system would respond to an alternative request.
>>>>> Now if someone from organized rehab said, okay freedom scientific, we
>>>>> are
>>>>> creating an employment program where our clients will train in Linux,
>>>>> needing a solid screen reader solution for the system. We will give
>>>>> you
>>>>> an
>>>>> exclusive development contract for s millions to create the tool.
>>>>> Fs would likely say where do we sign?
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> On Sat, 13 Aug 2022, K0LNY_Glenn wrote:
>>>>>
>>>>>> True enough, but largely, rehab people typically use Windows at
>>>>>> work,
>>>>>> and
>>>>>> probably at home, but they need to cater to the needs of the client.
>>>>>> If a client used Linux, I doubt that any rehab counselor would
>>>>>> advocate
>>>>>> that
>>>>>> the client switch to Windows, unless that was needed for a specific
>>>>>> job.
>>>>>> In Nebraska, we purchased Jaws much more for personal use than we
>>>>>> did
>>>>>> for
>>>>>> work related situations.
>>>>>> So if FS made a JFL, and people were using Linux, rehab would indeed
>>>>>> purchase a JFL product.
>>>>>> Glenn
>>>>>> ----- Original Message -----
>>>>>> From: "Karen Lewellen" <klewellen at shellworld.net>
>>>>>> To: "K0LNY_Glenn" <glenn at ervin.email>
>>>>>> Cc: <speakup at linux-speakup.org>; "Milan Zamazal" <pdm at zamazal.org>;
>>>>>> <Blinux-list at redhat.com>
>>>>>> Sent: Saturday, August 13, 2022 3:01 PM
>>>>>> Subject: Re: "Accessibility in Fedora Workstation" (fwd)
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>> there was an interesting discussion a month or so back on the blinux
>>>>>> list
>>>>>> about how long it took completing tasks in the gui as apposed to say
>>>>>> command line, the comments were quite informative.
>>>>>> Still, fs has never marketed largely to the end user. Instead they
>>>>>> market
>>>>>> to the American rehab community.
>>>>>> how much market research has the rehab community done to support
>>>>>> the
>>>>>> need
>>>>>> for choices?
>>>>>> How many rehab counselors support training in Linux?
>>>>>> one comment made by the subject of this thread about poor quality
>>>>>> speech
>>>>>> is a fine one...out of the box Linux has few speech choices.
>>>>>> everyone
>>>>>> brings their needs to the table there.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> if you want to get fs to care about Linux, you need to prove there
>>>>>> is
>>>>>> money for them there, from their main source of income.
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>> On Sat, 13 Aug 2022, K0LNY_Glenn wrote:
>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Well since Orca seems to work on so many distros, I don't know why
>>>>>>> FS
>>>>>>> would
>>>>>>> not be able to do the same.
>>>>>>> If Jaws users could switch into Linux, it would be a real game
>>>>>>> changer,
>>>>>>> and
>>>>>>> I think with lots more Blind Linux users, we would start seeing
>>>>>>> accessibility in Linux not being a second thought.
>>>>>>> Glenn
>>>>>>> ----- Original Message -----
>>>>>>> From: "Karen Lewellen" <klewellen at shellworld.net>
>>>>>>> To: "K0LNY_Glenn" <glenn at ervin.email>
>>>>>>> Cc: <speakup at linux-speakup.org>; "Milan Zamazal" <pdm at zamazal.org>;
>>>>>>> <Blinux-list at redhat.com>
>>>>>>> Sent: Saturday, August 13, 2022 1:47 PM
>>>>>>> Subject: Re: "Accessibility in Fedora Workstation" (fwd)
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Well technically freedom scientific does not exist any longer,
>>>>>>> being
>>>>>>> bought
>>>>>>> by another company.
>>>>>>> Still, I can respect why they, or nvda have not created their tools
>>>>>>> for
>>>>>>> Linux.
>>>>>>> That is because as I understand it, Linux is quite like clay. You
>>>>>>> can
>>>>>>> mold a distribution into almost anything. there are various
>>>>>>> personifications of the system, all sorts of ways and changes and
>>>>>>> options
>>>>>>> for creativity.
>>>>>>> however adaptive tools are often extensions of physical
>>>>>>> characteristics,
>>>>>>> hands, eyes, ears, brains, combinations of these.
>>>>>>> To build solid assistive tools one must have a solid foundation as
>>>>>>> it
>>>>>>> were. that is part of why there have needed to be so few Apple
>>>>>>> efforts
>>>>>>> at
>>>>>>> inclusion, they created with, and then created in-house adaptive
>>>>>>> tools
>>>>>>> for various populations that were built into the system.
>>>>>>> Although Microsoft did not bother until much later, in theory at
>>>>>>> least,
>>>>>>> the
>>>>>>> consistency of windows is what makes it possible for freedom or the
>>>>>>> former
>>>>>>> gw micro or nvda to create something that can in theory work.
>>>>>>> Floor for the furniture is somewhat solid.
>>>>>>> Just my thoughts,
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> On Sat, 13 Aug 2022, K0LNY_Glenn wrote:
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> I would like to see Freedom Scientific make a Jaws For Linux.
>>>>>>>> JFL
>>>>>>>> I'd certainly pay the yearly rental fee for it, and it would bring
>>>>>>>> many
>>>>>>>> more
>>>>>>>> users into Linux.
>>>>>>>> FS could, with its resources, possibly make it more robust than
>>>>>>>> Orca.
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> Glenn
>>>>>>>> ----- Original Message -----
>>>>>>>> From: "Milan Zamazal" <pdm at zamazal.org>
>>>>>>>> To: <speakup at linux-speakup.org>
>>>>>>>> Cc: <Blinux-list at redhat.com>
>>>>>>>> Sent: Saturday, August 13, 2022 12:08 PM
>>>>>>>> Subject: Re: "Accessibility in Fedora Workstation" (fwd)
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>> "KL" == Karen Lewellen <klewellen at shellworld.net>
>>>>>>>>>>>>> writes:
>>>>>>>> KL> What bothers me most are his lack of actual qualifications,
>>>>>>>> and
>>>>>>>> KL> absolute dismissal of what he has not experienced..as if he
>>>>>>>> KL> defines Linux usage for everyone. That attitude is dangerous,
>>>>>>>> KL> because he is educating those outside of the accessibility
>>>>>>>> KL> experiences, who will believe his ignorance is factual. he
>>>>>>>> has
>>>>>>>> KL> to be expert, it is his job.
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> Hi Karen,
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> I know Lukas personally and I admire his skills and
>>>>>>>> qualifications.
>>>>>>>> I
>>>>>>>> also know first hand that he is open to constructive feedback and
>>>>>>>> I
>>>>>>>> believe he??Td be happy to be corrected about possible technical
>>>>>>>> inaccuracies in the interview. It may be also a good opportunity
>>>>>>>> to
>>>>>>>> find out what??Ts possibly missing in making anybody better
>>>>>>>> informed.
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> As for ??oabsolute dismissal of what he has not experienced???,
>>>>>>>> what
>>>>>>>> reasonable free software alternatives to a less or more standard
>>>>>>>> desktop
>>>>>>>> with Orca and a software synthesizer can you see for a common
>>>>>>>> blind
>>>>>>>> user
>>>>>>>> who needs to use a fully working web browser, to read and process
>>>>>>>> text
>>>>>>>> documents, to be compatible with other computer users, etc.?
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> And let??Ts be realistic. We celebrate every single developer
>>>>>>>> hired
>>>>>>>> to
>>>>>>>> improve accessibility. This tells something about the state of
>>>>>>>> the
>>>>>>>> matters. We cannot expect that a single person will fix all the
>>>>>>>> kinds
>>>>>>>> of accessibility problems in all the environments. Lukas works at
>>>>>>>> his
>>>>>>>> job focusing on certain areas currently seen there as urgent ones
>>>>>>>> and I
>>>>>>>> appreciate this opportunity. Anybody else seeing a need to work
>>>>>>>> on
>>>>>>>> other areas is welcome to contribute to whatever sees fit, as I
>>>>>>>> do.
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> Regards,
>>>>>>>> Milan
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>
>>
>>
>
>
^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 78+ messages in thread
* "Accessibility in Fedora Workstation" (fwd)
` blinux-list
@ ` blinux-list
0 siblings, 0 replies; 78+ messages in thread
From: blinux-list @ UTC (permalink / raw)
You'd be surprised how little the people on the bottom, like accessibility
folks, get paid. He probably isn't really making all that much.
Devin Prater
r.d.t.prater at gmail.com
On Tue, Aug 16, 2022 at 1:44 PM Linux for blind general discussion <
blinux-list at redhat.com> wrote:
> John,
>
>
>
> On Mon, 15 Aug 2022, John G. Heim wrote:
>
> > Linux is free, open source software. Much of it is written by
> volunteers. The
> > Linux community simply isn't comperable to Apple or Microsoft. Apple and
> > Microsoft have ethical obligations that do not apply to the Linux
> community.
> I am sorry, but this is simply not correct.
>
> Linus began developing Linux, marketed as a free edition of
> UNIX in 1991.
> Since then the system is frankly used in countless ways,
> including products that carry legal obligations to be inclusive.
>
> Here is an article listing but a few. Searching uses for Linux?
> In your preferred tool will lead to many more such articles.
>
>
> From your kitchen to the reaches of outer space, Linux gets
> everywhere...
>
> 25 Awesome Things Powered By Linux
> By Joey Sneddon ? Updated 5 January 2021
>
>
> https://www.omgubuntu.co.uk/2016/08/25-awesome-unexpected-things-powered-linux
>
> A few from this list alone.
>
> 1. Super Computers
> Yep, every single one of the world's top 500 supercomputers
> use Linux.
>
> 2. NASA
> From storing data sent down from satellites and telescopes, to
> crunching that data for research institutions and the greater
> public to use, NASA relies heavily on Linux.
>
> 6. Roku
> All Roku hardware runs a custom, heavily modified version of
> Linux called `Roku OS'.
>
> 8. Smart TVs
> Linux doesn't just power a plethora of set-top boxes. A number
> of leading TV manufacturers offer a built-in `smart TV'
> experience Using Linux.
> From LG (who use WebOS) to Samsung (who use Tizen) to Sharp,
> HiSense, Philips and Panasonic... The list of gogglebox giants
> making use of Linux goes on!
>
> 10. The Amazon Kindle
> The Kindle is almost a byword for digital e-readers, but few
> give much thought to the embedded operating system it runs, but
> it is Linux. Some hackers even managed to install Ubuntu on the
> early-gen Kindles.
> The very first version of the Kindle OS used Linux kernel
> v2.6.26,
> while the most recent, the Kindle Oasis, uses v3.0.35.
>
> 15. Self Driving Cars
>
> Google's autonomous car computers run Linux, as do prototype
> self-driving vehicles from General Motors (GM) and Volkswagen.
>
> 19. Advanced Air Traffic Control
>
> The Federal Aviation Administration of the United States
> switched to Linux back in 2006. It runs custom-built software to
> manage and display air traffic flow - software that runs on
> Linux.
>
> 20. Chromebooks
> You'd be surprised how many people think Chromebooks run
> Android -- they don't. Chromebooks run Chrome OS, a Linux
> distribution based on but heavily modified from) Gentoo.
>
> 23. U.S. Department of Defense
>
> The United States Department of Defense is the single biggest
> customer of Red Hat Linux.
>
> Honestly I have no idea where you get the sense that Linux is run
> by volunteers. When IBM bought Red Hat, the company behind
> Fedora in 2019, they paid 34 billion dollars for the company.
> Meaning this individual is likely drawing an amazing wage to
> define Accessibility in Linux by their very small and limited
> dictionary.
>
>
> Karen
>
>
>
>
> > On 8/14/22 18:21, Karen Lewellen wrote:
> >> I echo this attitude concern, but for a different reason.
> >> who gets to decide what bodies deserve a place at the table?
> >> because of a vascular accident in an eye surgery, I experience a brain
> >> anomaly where certain frequencies stimulate the dizzy centres of my
> brain.
> >> allot of those frequencies happen in poorly designed software speech
> >> configurations for Linux.
> >> Meaning, because little effort has been made to give choices for Linux
> >> speech in the gui, if I wanted to use this, I would have to choose
> between
> >> a Linux computer and hospitalization.
> >> compare this with apple hardware.
> >> I recently aquired a mid 2012 macbook pro which, because of how the
> >> voiceover sound is produced is perfectly safe for my use..and I can
> >> still run only one Mac os off from the last pre m.1 systems.
> >> i have an associate in my office running their business on a 2011
> macbook
> >> pro.
> >> Indeed climate change, landfill issues, available resources in terms of
> >> training and access all over the world.
> >> And, for many how their body works mandates choices.
> >> There was a time when one of the great things about Linux was that it
> >> could be used to breathe new life into older hardware. especially
> >> helpful in non-western countries where getting the fastest car on the
> >> road was costly.
> >> If your attitude was the rule though, those folks regardless of
> abilities
> >> might never get computers at all.
> >> take your attitude and say substitute braille.
> >> Statistically less than 10% of the blindness community are braille
> >> users, meaning the majority do not use it, or even learn it if newly
> >> blinded.
> >> so, its unfortunate some blind people are still stuck needing volumes
> and
> >> volumes of braille, but to expect the world to confirm to such a
> limited
> >> use language etc.
> >> Speaking personally, especially given how flexible Linux is supposed to
> >> be?
> >> deciding some have no place at your gui table is little different than
> >> deciding those who are visible minorities, no matter the location,
> have no
> >> place at the table either.
> >> Karen
> >>
> >>
> >>
> >> On Sun, 14 Aug 2022, Chris Brannon wrote:
> >>
> >> > Matt Campbell <mattcampbell at pobox.com> writes:
> >> >
> >> > > I took this position in 2000, but for the last decade or more,
> access
> >> > > to a
> >> > > GUI has been widely available to blind people at no extra cost.
> (If
> >> > > there
> >> > > are blind people today who are truly stuck on old hardware with no
> >> > > accessible GUI, that's unfortunate, but I think this is one case
> where
> >> > > the
> >> > > best solution is charity, not expecting the rest of the world to
> >> > > accommodate
> >> > > this situation forever. That's no different than for sighted
> people
> >> > > stuck on
> >> > > very old hardware.)
> >> >
> >> > I'm sorry, but this is a very irresponsible attitude, given the
> impact
> >> > of climate change. And now on top of that, the world is coping with
> >> > supply chain issues. "Chuck it in a landfill because it won't run
> the
> >> > latest Electron app" is deeply unacceptable.
> >> >
> >> > I do agree with you about the importance of GUI accessibility, even
> >> > though I only use one when circumstances force me to it. I'm
> somewhat
> >> > optimistic about the recent news.
> >> >
> >> > -- Chris
> >> >
> >> >
> >>
> >
> >
> _______________________________________________
> Blinux-list mailing list
> Blinux-list at redhat.com
> https://listman.redhat.com/mailman/listinfo/blinux-list
>
^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 78+ messages in thread
* "Accessibility in Fedora Workstation" (fwd)
[not found] ` <69e2d652-3f37-d6b0-1b86-69749b96616b@wisc.edu>
@ ` blinux-list
` blinux-list
0 siblings, 1 reply; 78+ messages in thread
From: blinux-list @ UTC (permalink / raw)
John,
On Mon, 15 Aug 2022, John G. Heim wrote:
> Linux is free, open source software. Much of it is written by volunteers. The
> Linux community simply isn't comperable to Apple or Microsoft. Apple and
> Microsoft have ethical obligations that do not apply to the Linux community.
I am sorry, but this is simply not correct.
Linus began developing Linux, marketed as a free edition of
UNIX in 1991.
Since then the system is frankly used in countless ways,
including products that carry legal obligations to be inclusive.
Here is an article listing but a few. Searching uses for Linux?
In your preferred tool will lead to many more such articles.
From your kitchen to the reaches of outer space, Linux gets
everywhere...
25 Awesome Things Powered By Linux
By Joey Sneddon ? Updated 5 January 2021
https://www.omgubuntu.co.uk/2016/08/25-awesome-unexpected-things-powered-linux
A few from this list alone.
1. Super Computers
Yep, every single one of the world's top 500 supercomputers
use Linux.
2. NASA
From storing data sent down from satellites and telescopes, to
crunching that data for research institutions and the greater
public to use, NASA relies heavily on Linux.
6. Roku
All Roku hardware runs a custom, heavily modified version of
Linux called `Roku OS'.
8. Smart TVs
Linux doesn't just power a plethora of set-top boxes. A number
of leading TV manufacturers offer a built-in `smart TV'
experience Using Linux.
From LG (who use WebOS) to Samsung (who use Tizen) to Sharp,
HiSense, Philips and Panasonic... The list of gogglebox giants
making use of Linux goes on!
10. The Amazon Kindle
The Kindle is almost a byword for digital e-readers, but few
give much thought to the embedded operating system it runs, but
it is Linux. Some hackers even managed to install Ubuntu on the
early-gen Kindles.
The very first version of the Kindle OS used Linux kernel
v2.6.26,
while the most recent, the Kindle Oasis, uses v3.0.35.
15. Self Driving Cars
Google's autonomous car computers run Linux, as do prototype
self-driving vehicles from General Motors (GM) and Volkswagen.
19. Advanced Air Traffic Control
The Federal Aviation Administration of the United States
switched to Linux back in 2006. It runs custom-built software to
manage and display air traffic flow - software that runs on
Linux.
20. Chromebooks
You'd be surprised how many people think Chromebooks run
Android -- they don't. Chromebooks run Chrome OS, a Linux
distribution based on but heavily modified from) Gentoo.
23. U.S. Department of Defense
The United States Department of Defense is the single biggest
customer of Red Hat Linux.
Honestly I have no idea where you get the sense that Linux is run
by volunteers. When IBM bought Red Hat, the company behind
Fedora in 2019, they paid 34 billion dollars for the company.
Meaning this individual is likely drawing an amazing wage to
define Accessibility in Linux by their very small and limited
dictionary.
Karen
> On 8/14/22 18:21, Karen Lewellen wrote:
>> I echo this attitude concern, but for a different reason.
>> who gets to decide what bodies? deserve a place at the table?
>> because of a vascular accident in an eye surgery, I experience a brain
>> anomaly where certain frequencies stimulate the dizzy centres of my brain.
>> allot of those frequencies happen in poorly designed software speech
>> configurations for Linux.
>> Meaning, because little effort has been made to give choices for Linux
>> speech in the gui, if I wanted to use this, I would have to choose between
>> a Linux computer and hospitalization.
>> compare this with apple hardware.
>> I recently aquired a? mid 2012 macbook pro which, because of how the
>> voiceover?? sound is produced is perfectly safe for my use..and I can
>> still run? only one? Mac os off? from the last pre m.1 systems.
>> i have an associate in my office running their business on a 2011 macbook
>> pro.
>> Indeed climate change, landfill issues, available resources in terms of
>> training and access all over the world.
>> And, for many how their body works mandates choices.
>> There was a time when one of the great things about Linux was that it
>> could be used to breathe? new life into older hardware. especially
>> helpful in? non-western countries where getting the fastest car on the
>> road was costly.
>> If your attitude was the rule though, those folks regardless of abilities
>> might never get computers at all.
>> ?take your attitude and say substitute braille.
>> ?Statistically less than 10% of the blindness community are braille
>> users, meaning the majority do not? use it, or even learn it if newly
>> blinded.
>> so, its unfortunate some blind people are still stuck needing volumes and
>> volumes of braille, but? to expect the world to confirm to such a limited
>> use language etc.
>> Speaking personally, especially given how flexible Linux is supposed to
>> be?
>> deciding some have no place at your gui table is little different than
>> deciding those who are visible minorities, no matter the location, have no
>> place at the table either.
>> ?Karen
>>
>>
>>
>> On Sun, 14 Aug 2022, Chris Brannon wrote:
>>
>> > Matt Campbell <mattcampbell at pobox.com> writes:
>> >
>> > > I took this position in 2000, but for the last decade or more, access
>> > > to a
>> > > GUI has been widely available to blind people at no extra cost. (If
>> > > there
>> > > are blind people today who are truly stuck on old hardware with no
>> > > accessible GUI, that's unfortunate, but I think this is one case where
>> > > the
>> > > best solution is charity, not expecting the rest of the world to
>> > > accommodate
>> > > this situation forever. That's no different than for sighted people
>> > > stuck on
>> > > very old hardware.)
>> >
>> > I'm sorry, but this is a very irresponsible attitude, given the impact
>> > of climate change.? And now on top of that, the world is coping with
>> > supply chain issues.? "Chuck it in a landfill because it won't run the
>> > latest Electron app" is deeply unacceptable.
>> >
>> > I do agree with you about the importance of GUI accessibility, even
>> > though I only use one when circumstances force me to it.? I'm somewhat
>> > optimistic about the recent news.
>> >
>> > -- Chris
>> >
>> >
>>
>
>
^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 78+ messages in thread
* "Accessibility in Fedora Workstation" (fwd)
[not found] <202208161814.27GIEKUm029606@nfbcal.org>
@ ` blinux-list
` blinux-list
1 sibling, 0 replies; 78+ messages in thread
From: blinux-list @ UTC (permalink / raw)
Brian, you're not actually still defending the NFB's reasoning, are you?
It could hardly have been more clearly wrong.
You are posting this to an email list for a free, open source screen
reader. I made my living as the manager of high performance computing at
the University Of Wisconsin with Speakup and Orca. And Jaws still
exists. The price has dropped to $99 though.
Look, the NFB made a mistake. A *HUGE* mistake. That's about as obvious
as it could possibly be.
On 8/16/22 13:14, Brian Buhrow wrote:
> hello. Having participated in the debate with Microsoft about narrator, let me see if I
> can provide a bit of context. When Microsoft began putting a real effort into Narrator, there
> wer those of us who were concerned that it would put Freedom scientific out of business and,
> thus, potentially, remove accessibility choices for blind users, especially for folks who were
> currently employed using JAWS or, at the time, GW Micro. Exhibit A was, and is, Apple with
> VoiceOver. If you want to use Apple products with access technology your choice is, well,
> VoiceOver. If it doesn't work for you, well then, tough on you. That's also true of Android
> with Talkback and Brailleback. Yes, Brltty works on Android, but it relies on the access
> provided by Talkback and Brailleback to get its data, so if Talkback and Brailleback can't see
> it, it isn't visible nonvisually.
> It takes a lot of effort to make a good screen reader and it takes even more effort to
> keep it running well. The argument ran like this: if Microsoft put a huge amount of effort
> into getting Narrator working well, would they continue to provide the hooks and data Freedom
> Scientific and NVDA needed to make their products work? And, what if Narrator was deemed good
> enough by Microsoft, but didn't work for folks who were trying to hold down jobs, but JAWS and,
> at the time GW Micro, couldn't continue making their products function because they weren't
> getting what they needed from Microsoft? what we said was we didn't want Microsoft to work on
> Narrator at the expense of continuing to develop and share their access API's with third party
> screen reader providers.
> While it's true the accessibility scene hasn't played out exactly as we described it in
> terms of the time frame we laid out, it is true that, over time, accessibility options for
> Windows users are dwindling. Case and point, if you purchase the tablet version of Windows, or
> the stock home edition of Windows, by default, you cannot use any screen reader other than
> Narrator on that installation unless you flip a magic switch in that installation to enable the
> full Windows experience. In addition to allowing third party screen readers, that switch also
> allows the installation of unsigned software outside of the Microsoft store. Microsoft claims
> they will never disable the ability to flip that switch, but the fact that we are one switch
> away from not being able to use the screen reader of our choice on Windows, is, in my view, an
> erosion of access. Remember, there was a time when Microsoft said it would never release a
> Windows version 11.
>
> So, while it may be that our message was mis-interpreted, and we may have not stated it as
> well as we should have, the goal of the message was, in fact, to expand accessibility choices,
> not to diminish them.
>
> -Brian
>
>
^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 78+ messages in thread
* "Accessibility in Fedora Workstation" (fwd)
` blinux-list
@ ` blinux-list
` blinux-list
` blinux-list
2 siblings, 0 replies; 78+ messages in thread
From: blinux-list @ UTC (permalink / raw)
Well, John, just replying to you as there were others who would have had
duplicates. With an exception of N V D A, only paying commercial screen-readers
have had lots of features-and-really good phone support. Currently JAWS as well
as VoiceOver have well-staffed ways of receiving phone support. But God4bid if
you need Speakup help, especially since the late Bill Acker is gone.
Chime
^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 78+ messages in thread
* "Accessibility in Fedora Workstation" (fwd)
[not found] ` <04a701d8b196$0d63e190$80ffa8c0@Win7VM>
` blinux-list
@ ` blinux-list
` blinux-list
` (2 more replies)
[not found] ` <Pine.LNX.4.64.2208161337580.1331943@server2.shellworld.net>
[not found] ` <Pine.LNX.4.64.2208170744140.1352313@server2.shellworld.net>
3 siblings, 3 replies; 78+ messages in thread
From: blinux-list @ UTC (permalink / raw)
Actually, I'd like to know where you got the idea that it's just a
rumor. It is not. I was personally involved at the time, arguing
strenuously against the policy. I can give you names of people at the
NFB who backed the policy if you'd like.
The NFB's reasoning was that a free screen reader would not be as good
as one you had to pay for. They reasoned that Microsoft had little
motivation to keep on improving their screen reader but it might be
enough to drive Freedom Scientific out of business. As a Linux user, I
felt that reasoning was flawed mainly because I felt free, open source?
screen readers were right around the corner anyway. I believe I was
using Speakup and something called Nupernicus on Linux at the time.
This is absolutely not a rumor.
On 8/16/22 12:31, K0LNY_Glenn wrote:
> That is hear-say, an old rumor that has been recycled countless times.
> Glenn
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: "John G. Heim" <jheim at wisc.edu>
> To: "K0LNY_Glenn" <glenn at ervin.email>; "Butch Bussen"
> <butchb at shellworld.net>; "Karen Lewellen" <klewellen at shellworld.net>
> Cc: <speakup at linux-speakup.org>; "Milan Zamazal" <pdm at zamazal.org>;
> <Blinux-list at redhat.com>
> Sent: Tuesday, August 16, 2022 11:49 AM
> Subject: Re: "Accessibility in Fedora Workstation" (fwd)
>
>
> Holy cow! Are you aware that the NFB once asked Microsoft to *NOT*
> improve Narrator to the point where it would compete with Jaws? If you
> think the NFB is incapable of forcing choices on people, you are very
> sadly mistaken.
>
>
>
> On 8/16/22 09:36, K0LNY_Glenn wrote:
>> This sort of thing would never happen in Nebraska, or any state where the
>> agency staff is of the NFB philosophy.
>> Say what you want about the NFB, no organization is without its problems,
>> but it is the core philosophy that formed the NFB that knows that society
>> has low expectations of the Blind, and this is why the NFB believes in
>> skills and high expectations.
>> And with that, comes giving respect to the Blind, like the respect of
>> choice.
>> Yeah I know about the information of recent about NFB abuse, but this is
>> organizational issues, unrelated to the philosophy. In fact, the fact
>> that
>> it has come up demonstrates that the NFB is no different than any other
>> organization in interpersonal staff issues.
>> And choice does not mean training center choices.
>> Choice isn't always an option, just like if you took a vocational course
>> in
>> college, there are things you have to take, so to me, the lack of choice
>> in
>> this regard is different than computer software, where all the choices
>> will
>> reach the same end result.
>> In states where the NFB philosophy is embraced, if a client said I want to
>> use a Mac, or I want Window Eyes, then that is what they would get, no
>> questions asked.
>> They would not have to fight to get it.
>> I simply cannot imagine a counselor saying that someone has to use the
>> software that the counselor wants them to have.
>> When I hear that stuff, I almost cannot believe it, but I know Butch well
>> enough to know he wouldn't make that up.
>>
>> Glenn
>> ----- Original Message -----
>> From: "Butch Bussen" <butchb at shellworld.net>
>> To: "Karen Lewellen" <klewellen at shellworld.net>
>> Cc: "K0LNY_Glenn" <glenn at ervin.email>; <speakup at linux-speakup.org>; "Milan
>> Zamazal" <pdm at zamazal.org>; <Blinux-list at redhat.com>
>> Sent: Tuesday, August 16, 2022 8:18 AM
>> Subject: Re: "Accessibility in Fedora Workstation" (fwd)
>>
>>
>> You are right. In Nevada, freedom pushed jaws to the rehab people and
>> took them out for steak diners and so forth. I fought like hell to get
>> them to buy window-eyes.
>> 73
>> Butch
>> WA0VJR
>> Node 3148
>> Wallace, ks.
>>
>>
>> On Sun, 14 Aug 2022, Karen Lewellen wrote:
>>
>>> And where do these employers learn about jaws?
>>> In fact, provide if you do not mind an example of how this works
>>> exactly.
>>> after all, unless I am incorrect, these employers are not personal Jaws
>>> users, meaning someone they trust continues to sell them on an expensive
>>> program instead of a largely free one.
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> On Sat, 13 Aug 2022, K0LNY_Glenn wrote:
>>>
>>>> Karen,
>>>> Most employers don't want NVDA, and will only allow Jaws.
>>>> In Nebraska, if an employer said put on whatever works, the counselors
>>>> will
>>>> use NVDA, because of the cost of Jaws.
>>>> If some of the clients in a call center already use Jaws, but don't
>>>> know
>>>> NVDA, the counselor will use Jaws, because the other clients will need
>>>> to
>>>> learn one of the two.
>>>> So it's all choice, but in the workplace, it depends on what the
>>>> employer
>>>> will allow.
>>>> Also, sometimes scripts need to be made, and there are more Jaws
>>>> scripters
>>>> available than there are NVDA add-on writers.
>>>> So this perception that Jaws is forced by rehab, from my 31 years in
>>>> the
>>>> business I can say is rubbish.
>>>> Now, if a counselor did not know how to use NVDA, and either may be
>>>> chosen,
>>>> the rehab counselor is able to select the one that the counselor feels
>>>> is
>>>> best for the student and for the counselor's teaching.
>>>> When it comes to part B moneys, which is used for non-vocational
>>>> purchases,
>>>> where a lot of Jaws purchases come from, it is in the agency's best
>>>> interest
>>>> to spend as little as possible, because that doesn't come back like VR
>>>> expenditures do.
>>>> Glenn
>>>>
>>>> ----- Original Message -----
>>>> From: "Karen Lewellen" <klewellen at shellworld.net>
>>>> To: "K0LNY_Glenn" <glenn at ervin.email>
>>>> Cc: <speakup at linux-speakup.org>; "Milan Zamazal" <pdm at zamazal.org>;
>>>> <Blinux-list at redhat.com>
>>>> Sent: Saturday, August 13, 2022 6:15 PM
>>>> Subject: Re: "Accessibility in Fedora Workstation" (fwd)
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> The challenge with that example is that, as one often gets reminded,
>>>> the
>>>> rehab systems track record for facilitating employment for their
>>>> clients
>>>> is quite poor.
>>>> With a high percentage of unemployment among our clients. Making,
>>>> speaking personally, your buying Jaws for personal use not really
>>>> reflecting how the system would respond to an alternative request.
>>>> Now if someone from organized rehab said, okay freedom scientific, we
>>>> are
>>>> creating an employment program where our clients will train in Linux,
>>>> needing a solid screen reader solution for the system. We will give
>>>> you
>>>> an
>>>> exclusive development contract for s millions to create the tool.
>>>> Fs would likely say where do we sign?
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> On Sat, 13 Aug 2022, K0LNY_Glenn wrote:
>>>>
>>>>> True enough, but largely, rehab people typically use Windows at work,
>>>>> and
>>>>> probably at home, but they need to cater to the needs of the client.
>>>>> If a client used Linux, I doubt that any rehab counselor would
>>>>> advocate
>>>>> that
>>>>> the client switch to Windows, unless that was needed for a specific
>>>>> job.
>>>>> In Nebraska, we purchased Jaws much more for personal use than we did
>>>>> for
>>>>> work related situations.
>>>>> So if FS made a JFL, and people were using Linux, rehab would indeed
>>>>> purchase a JFL product.
>>>>> Glenn
>>>>> ----- Original Message -----
>>>>> From: "Karen Lewellen" <klewellen at shellworld.net>
>>>>> To: "K0LNY_Glenn" <glenn at ervin.email>
>>>>> Cc: <speakup at linux-speakup.org>; "Milan Zamazal" <pdm at zamazal.org>;
>>>>> <Blinux-list at redhat.com>
>>>>> Sent: Saturday, August 13, 2022 3:01 PM
>>>>> Subject: Re: "Accessibility in Fedora Workstation" (fwd)
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> there was an interesting discussion a month or so back on the blinux
>>>>> list
>>>>> about how long it took completing tasks in the gui as apposed to say
>>>>> command line, the comments were quite informative.
>>>>> Still, fs has never marketed largely to the end user. Instead they
>>>>> market
>>>>> to the American rehab community.
>>>>> how much market research has the rehab community done to support the
>>>>> need
>>>>> for choices?
>>>>> How many rehab counselors support training in Linux?
>>>>> one comment made by the subject of this thread about poor quality
>>>>> speech
>>>>> is a fine one...out of the box Linux has few speech choices.
>>>>> everyone
>>>>> brings their needs to the table there.
>>>>>
>>>>> if you want to get fs to care about Linux, you need to prove there
>>>>> is
>>>>> money for them there, from their main source of income.
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> On Sat, 13 Aug 2022, K0LNY_Glenn wrote:
>>>>>
>>>>>> Well since Orca seems to work on so many distros, I don't know why
>>>>>> FS
>>>>>> would
>>>>>> not be able to do the same.
>>>>>> If Jaws users could switch into Linux, it would be a real game
>>>>>> changer,
>>>>>> and
>>>>>> I think with lots more Blind Linux users, we would start seeing
>>>>>> accessibility in Linux not being a second thought.
>>>>>> Glenn
>>>>>> ----- Original Message -----
>>>>>> From: "Karen Lewellen" <klewellen at shellworld.net>
>>>>>> To: "K0LNY_Glenn" <glenn at ervin.email>
>>>>>> Cc: <speakup at linux-speakup.org>; "Milan Zamazal" <pdm at zamazal.org>;
>>>>>> <Blinux-list at redhat.com>
>>>>>> Sent: Saturday, August 13, 2022 1:47 PM
>>>>>> Subject: Re: "Accessibility in Fedora Workstation" (fwd)
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Well technically freedom scientific does not exist any longer, being
>>>>>> bought
>>>>>> by another company.
>>>>>> Still, I can respect why they, or nvda have not created their tools
>>>>>> for
>>>>>> Linux.
>>>>>> That is because as I understand it, Linux is quite like clay. You
>>>>>> can
>>>>>> mold a distribution into almost anything. there are various
>>>>>> personifications of the system, all sorts of ways and changes and
>>>>>> options
>>>>>> for creativity.
>>>>>> however adaptive tools are often extensions of physical
>>>>>> characteristics,
>>>>>> hands, eyes, ears, brains, combinations of these.
>>>>>> To build solid assistive tools one must have a solid foundation as
>>>>>> it
>>>>>> were. that is part of why there have needed to be so few Apple
>>>>>> efforts
>>>>>> at
>>>>>> inclusion, they created with, and then created in-house adaptive
>>>>>> tools
>>>>>> for various populations that were built into the system.
>>>>>> Although Microsoft did not bother until much later, in theory at
>>>>>> least,
>>>>>> the
>>>>>> consistency of windows is what makes it possible for freedom or the
>>>>>> former
>>>>>> gw micro or nvda to create something that can in theory work.
>>>>>> Floor for the furniture is somewhat solid.
>>>>>> Just my thoughts,
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>> On Sat, 13 Aug 2022, K0LNY_Glenn wrote:
>>>>>>
>>>>>>> I would like to see Freedom Scientific make a Jaws For Linux.
>>>>>>> JFL
>>>>>>> I'd certainly pay the yearly rental fee for it, and it would bring
>>>>>>> many
>>>>>>> more
>>>>>>> users into Linux.
>>>>>>> FS could, with its resources, possibly make it more robust than
>>>>>>> Orca.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Glenn
>>>>>>> ----- Original Message -----
>>>>>>> From: "Milan Zamazal" <pdm at zamazal.org>
>>>>>>> To: <speakup at linux-speakup.org>
>>>>>>> Cc: <Blinux-list at redhat.com>
>>>>>>> Sent: Saturday, August 13, 2022 12:08 PM
>>>>>>> Subject: Re: "Accessibility in Fedora Workstation" (fwd)
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>> "KL" == Karen Lewellen <klewellen at shellworld.net>
>>>>>>>>>>>> writes:
>>>>>>> KL> What bothers me most are his lack of actual qualifications,
>>>>>>> and
>>>>>>> KL> absolute dismissal of what he has not experienced..as if he
>>>>>>> KL> defines Linux usage for everyone. That attitude is dangerous,
>>>>>>> KL> because he is educating those outside of the accessibility
>>>>>>> KL> experiences, who will believe his ignorance is factual. he
>>>>>>> has
>>>>>>> KL> to be expert, it is his job.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Hi Karen,
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> I know Lukas personally and I admire his skills and
>>>>>>> qualifications.
>>>>>>> I
>>>>>>> also know first hand that he is open to constructive feedback and
>>>>>>> I
>>>>>>> believe he??Td be happy to be corrected about possible technical
>>>>>>> inaccuracies in the interview. It may be also a good opportunity
>>>>>>> to
>>>>>>> find out what??Ts possibly missing in making anybody better
>>>>>>> informed.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> As for ??oabsolute dismissal of what he has not experienced???,
>>>>>>> what
>>>>>>> reasonable free software alternatives to a less or more standard
>>>>>>> desktop
>>>>>>> with Orca and a software synthesizer can you see for a common
>>>>>>> blind
>>>>>>> user
>>>>>>> who needs to use a fully working web browser, to read and process
>>>>>>> text
>>>>>>> documents, to be compatible with other computer users, etc.?
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> And let??Ts be realistic. We celebrate every single developer
>>>>>>> hired
>>>>>>> to
>>>>>>> improve accessibility. This tells something about the state of
>>>>>>> the
>>>>>>> matters. We cannot expect that a single person will fix all the
>>>>>>> kinds
>>>>>>> of accessibility problems in all the environments. Lukas works at
>>>>>>> his
>>>>>>> job focusing on certain areas currently seen there as urgent ones
>>>>>>> and I
>>>>>>> appreciate this opportunity. Anybody else seeing a need to work
>>>>>>> on
>>>>>>> other areas is welcome to contribute to whatever sees fit, as I
>>>>>>> do.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Regards,
>>>>>>> Milan
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>
^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 78+ messages in thread
* "Accessibility in Fedora Workstation" (fwd)
` blinux-list
@ ` blinux-list
0 siblings, 0 replies; 78+ messages in thread
From: blinux-list @ UTC (permalink / raw)
Well, First of all, for maybe a week, whenever Karen is posting on this topic,
I am receiving a total of 2 messages, 1 with her name-and-1 from the list. Are
these going to multiple lists? 2nd, while I have had issues with some NFB
philosophy, I think their creation of NFB Newsline was quite a helpful
service. 3rd, since Speakup is in a kernel, are their commands in Debian to
refresh any missing files which belong in /etc or .speakup? speakup-doc and
speakup-tools are practicly an only packages you can manage in an apt-get.
Thanks in advance
Chime
^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 78+ messages in thread
* "Accessibility in Fedora Workstation" (fwd)
` blinux-list
@ ` blinux-list
` blinux-list
0 siblings, 1 reply; 78+ messages in thread
From: blinux-list @ UTC (permalink / raw)
Hello,
Linux for blind general discussion, le mar. 16 ao?t 2022 18:11:14 +0100, a ecrit:
> But just as web browsers are updated for security. I'd like to see
> A11Y stuff updated as well.
Backports are available in Debian, to get the latest atspi&orca releases
installed on a stable system. No backports of the whole gnome desktop,
though (that would be a dependency hell).
Samuel
^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 78+ messages in thread
* "Accessibility in Fedora Workstation" (fwd)
[not found] ` <04a701d8b196$0d63e190$80ffa8c0@Win7VM>
@ ` blinux-list
` blinux-list
` (2 subsequent siblings)
3 siblings, 0 replies; 78+ messages in thread
From: blinux-list @ UTC (permalink / raw)
actually, I have a copy I believe of a speech from a convention where an
nfb member stated that built in screen readers were bad for the
blind...so, I doubt that rumor is false.
On Tue, 16 Aug 2022, K0LNY_Glenn wrote:
> That is hear-say, an old rumor that has been recycled countless times.
> Glenn
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: "John G. Heim" <jheim at wisc.edu>
> To: "K0LNY_Glenn" <glenn at ervin.email>; "Butch Bussen"
> <butchb at shellworld.net>; "Karen Lewellen" <klewellen at shellworld.net>
> Cc: <speakup at linux-speakup.org>; "Milan Zamazal" <pdm at zamazal.org>;
> <Blinux-list at redhat.com>
> Sent: Tuesday, August 16, 2022 11:49 AM
> Subject: Re: "Accessibility in Fedora Workstation" (fwd)
>
>
> Holy cow! Are you aware that the NFB once asked Microsoft to *NOT*
> improve Narrator to the point where it would compete with Jaws? If you
> think the NFB is incapable of forcing choices on people, you are very
> sadly mistaken.
>
>
>
> On 8/16/22 09:36, K0LNY_Glenn wrote:
>> This sort of thing would never happen in Nebraska, or any state where the
>> agency staff is of the NFB philosophy.
>> Say what you want about the NFB, no organization is without its problems,
>> but it is the core philosophy that formed the NFB that knows that society
>> has low expectations of the Blind, and this is why the NFB believes in
>> skills and high expectations.
>> And with that, comes giving respect to the Blind, like the respect of
>> choice.
>> Yeah I know about the information of recent about NFB abuse, but this is
>> organizational issues, unrelated to the philosophy. In fact, the fact
>> that
>> it has come up demonstrates that the NFB is no different than any other
>> organization in interpersonal staff issues.
>> And choice does not mean training center choices.
>> Choice isn't always an option, just like if you took a vocational course
>> in
>> college, there are things you have to take, so to me, the lack of choice
>> in
>> this regard is different than computer software, where all the choices
>> will
>> reach the same end result.
>> In states where the NFB philosophy is embraced, if a client said I want to
>> use a Mac, or I want Window Eyes, then that is what they would get, no
>> questions asked.
>> They would not have to fight to get it.
>> I simply cannot imagine a counselor saying that someone has to use the
>> software that the counselor wants them to have.
>> When I hear that stuff, I almost cannot believe it, but I know Butch well
>> enough to know he wouldn't make that up.
>>
>> Glenn
>> ----- Original Message -----
>> From: "Butch Bussen" <butchb at shellworld.net>
>> To: "Karen Lewellen" <klewellen at shellworld.net>
>> Cc: "K0LNY_Glenn" <glenn at ervin.email>; <speakup at linux-speakup.org>; "Milan
>> Zamazal" <pdm at zamazal.org>; <Blinux-list at redhat.com>
>> Sent: Tuesday, August 16, 2022 8:18 AM
>> Subject: Re: "Accessibility in Fedora Workstation" (fwd)
>>
>>
>> You are right. In Nevada, freedom pushed jaws to the rehab people and
>> took them out for steak diners and so forth. I fought like hell to get
>> them to buy window-eyes.
>> 73
>> Butch
>> WA0VJR
>> Node 3148
>> Wallace, ks.
>>
>>
>> On Sun, 14 Aug 2022, Karen Lewellen wrote:
>>
>>> And where do these employers learn about jaws?
>>> In fact, provide if you do not mind an example of how this works
>>> exactly.
>>> after all, unless I am incorrect, these employers are not personal Jaws
>>> users, meaning someone they trust continues to sell them on an expensive
>>> program instead of a largely free one.
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> On Sat, 13 Aug 2022, K0LNY_Glenn wrote:
>>>
>>>> Karen,
>>>> Most employers don't want NVDA, and will only allow Jaws.
>>>> In Nebraska, if an employer said put on whatever works, the counselors
>>>> will
>>>> use NVDA, because of the cost of Jaws.
>>>> If some of the clients in a call center already use Jaws, but don't
>>>> know
>>>> NVDA, the counselor will use Jaws, because the other clients will need
>>>> to
>>>> learn one of the two.
>>>> So it's all choice, but in the workplace, it depends on what the
>>>> employer
>>>> will allow.
>>>> Also, sometimes scripts need to be made, and there are more Jaws
>>>> scripters
>>>> available than there are NVDA add-on writers.
>>>> So this perception that Jaws is forced by rehab, from my 31 years in
>>>> the
>>>> business I can say is rubbish.
>>>> Now, if a counselor did not know how to use NVDA, and either may be
>>>> chosen,
>>>> the rehab counselor is able to select the one that the counselor feels
>>>> is
>>>> best for the student and for the counselor's teaching.
>>>> When it comes to part B moneys, which is used for non-vocational
>>>> purchases,
>>>> where a lot of Jaws purchases come from, it is in the agency's best
>>>> interest
>>>> to spend as little as possible, because that doesn't come back like VR
>>>> expenditures do.
>>>> Glenn
>>>>
>>>> ----- Original Message -----
>>>> From: "Karen Lewellen" <klewellen at shellworld.net>
>>>> To: "K0LNY_Glenn" <glenn at ervin.email>
>>>> Cc: <speakup at linux-speakup.org>; "Milan Zamazal" <pdm at zamazal.org>;
>>>> <Blinux-list at redhat.com>
>>>> Sent: Saturday, August 13, 2022 6:15 PM
>>>> Subject: Re: "Accessibility in Fedora Workstation" (fwd)
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> The challenge with that example is that, as one often gets reminded,
>>>> the
>>>> rehab systems track record for facilitating employment for their
>>>> clients
>>>> is quite poor.
>>>> With a high percentage of unemployment among our clients. Making,
>>>> speaking personally, your buying Jaws for personal use not really
>>>> reflecting how the system would respond to an alternative request.
>>>> Now if someone from organized rehab said, okay freedom scientific, we
>>>> are
>>>> creating an employment program where our clients will train in Linux,
>>>> needing a solid screen reader solution for the system. We will give
>>>> you
>>>> an
>>>> exclusive development contract for s millions to create the tool.
>>>> Fs would likely say where do we sign?
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> On Sat, 13 Aug 2022, K0LNY_Glenn wrote:
>>>>
>>>>> True enough, but largely, rehab people typically use Windows at work,
>>>>> and
>>>>> probably at home, but they need to cater to the needs of the client.
>>>>> If a client used Linux, I doubt that any rehab counselor would
>>>>> advocate
>>>>> that
>>>>> the client switch to Windows, unless that was needed for a specific
>>>>> job.
>>>>> In Nebraska, we purchased Jaws much more for personal use than we did
>>>>> for
>>>>> work related situations.
>>>>> So if FS made a JFL, and people were using Linux, rehab would indeed
>>>>> purchase a JFL product.
>>>>> Glenn
>>>>> ----- Original Message -----
>>>>> From: "Karen Lewellen" <klewellen at shellworld.net>
>>>>> To: "K0LNY_Glenn" <glenn at ervin.email>
>>>>> Cc: <speakup at linux-speakup.org>; "Milan Zamazal" <pdm at zamazal.org>;
>>>>> <Blinux-list at redhat.com>
>>>>> Sent: Saturday, August 13, 2022 3:01 PM
>>>>> Subject: Re: "Accessibility in Fedora Workstation" (fwd)
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> there was an interesting discussion a month or so back on the blinux
>>>>> list
>>>>> about how long it took completing tasks in the gui as apposed to say
>>>>> command line, the comments were quite informative.
>>>>> Still, fs has never marketed largely to the end user. Instead they
>>>>> market
>>>>> to the American rehab community.
>>>>> how much market research has the rehab community done to support the
>>>>> need
>>>>> for choices?
>>>>> How many rehab counselors support training in Linux?
>>>>> one comment made by the subject of this thread about poor quality
>>>>> speech
>>>>> is a fine one...out of the box Linux has few speech choices.
>>>>> everyone
>>>>> brings their needs to the table there.
>>>>>
>>>>> if you want to get fs to care about Linux, you need to prove there
>>>>> is
>>>>> money for them there, from their main source of income.
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> On Sat, 13 Aug 2022, K0LNY_Glenn wrote:
>>>>>
>>>>>> Well since Orca seems to work on so many distros, I don't know why
>>>>>> FS
>>>>>> would
>>>>>> not be able to do the same.
>>>>>> If Jaws users could switch into Linux, it would be a real game
>>>>>> changer,
>>>>>> and
>>>>>> I think with lots more Blind Linux users, we would start seeing
>>>>>> accessibility in Linux not being a second thought.
>>>>>> Glenn
>>>>>> ----- Original Message -----
>>>>>> From: "Karen Lewellen" <klewellen at shellworld.net>
>>>>>> To: "K0LNY_Glenn" <glenn at ervin.email>
>>>>>> Cc: <speakup at linux-speakup.org>; "Milan Zamazal" <pdm at zamazal.org>;
>>>>>> <Blinux-list at redhat.com>
>>>>>> Sent: Saturday, August 13, 2022 1:47 PM
>>>>>> Subject: Re: "Accessibility in Fedora Workstation" (fwd)
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Well technically freedom scientific does not exist any longer, being
>>>>>> bought
>>>>>> by another company.
>>>>>> Still, I can respect why they, or nvda have not created their tools
>>>>>> for
>>>>>> Linux.
>>>>>> That is because as I understand it, Linux is quite like clay. You
>>>>>> can
>>>>>> mold a distribution into almost anything. there are various
>>>>>> personifications of the system, all sorts of ways and changes and
>>>>>> options
>>>>>> for creativity.
>>>>>> however adaptive tools are often extensions of physical
>>>>>> characteristics,
>>>>>> hands, eyes, ears, brains, combinations of these.
>>>>>> To build solid assistive tools one must have a solid foundation as
>>>>>> it
>>>>>> were. that is part of why there have needed to be so few Apple
>>>>>> efforts
>>>>>> at
>>>>>> inclusion, they created with, and then created in-house adaptive
>>>>>> tools
>>>>>> for various populations that were built into the system.
>>>>>> Although Microsoft did not bother until much later, in theory at
>>>>>> least,
>>>>>> the
>>>>>> consistency of windows is what makes it possible for freedom or the
>>>>>> former
>>>>>> gw micro or nvda to create something that can in theory work.
>>>>>> Floor for the furniture is somewhat solid.
>>>>>> Just my thoughts,
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>> On Sat, 13 Aug 2022, K0LNY_Glenn wrote:
>>>>>>
>>>>>>> I would like to see Freedom Scientific make a Jaws For Linux.
>>>>>>> JFL
>>>>>>> I'd certainly pay the yearly rental fee for it, and it would bring
>>>>>>> many
>>>>>>> more
>>>>>>> users into Linux.
>>>>>>> FS could, with its resources, possibly make it more robust than
>>>>>>> Orca.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Glenn
>>>>>>> ----- Original Message -----
>>>>>>> From: "Milan Zamazal" <pdm at zamazal.org>
>>>>>>> To: <speakup at linux-speakup.org>
>>>>>>> Cc: <Blinux-list at redhat.com>
>>>>>>> Sent: Saturday, August 13, 2022 12:08 PM
>>>>>>> Subject: Re: "Accessibility in Fedora Workstation" (fwd)
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>> "KL" == Karen Lewellen <klewellen at shellworld.net>
>>>>>>>>>>>> writes:
>>>>>>> KL> What bothers me most are his lack of actual qualifications,
>>>>>>> and
>>>>>>> KL> absolute dismissal of what he has not experienced..as if he
>>>>>>> KL> defines Linux usage for everyone. That attitude is dangerous,
>>>>>>> KL> because he is educating those outside of the accessibility
>>>>>>> KL> experiences, who will believe his ignorance is factual. he
>>>>>>> has
>>>>>>> KL> to be expert, it is his job.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Hi Karen,
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> I know Lukas personally and I admire his skills and
>>>>>>> qualifications.
>>>>>>> I
>>>>>>> also know first hand that he is open to constructive feedback and
>>>>>>> I
>>>>>>> believe he??Td be happy to be corrected about possible technical
>>>>>>> inaccuracies in the interview. It may be also a good opportunity
>>>>>>> to
>>>>>>> find out what??Ts possibly missing in making anybody better
>>>>>>> informed.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> As for ??oabsolute dismissal of what he has not experienced???,
>>>>>>> what
>>>>>>> reasonable free software alternatives to a less or more standard
>>>>>>> desktop
>>>>>>> with Orca and a software synthesizer can you see for a common
>>>>>>> blind
>>>>>>> user
>>>>>>> who needs to use a fully working web browser, to read and process
>>>>>>> text
>>>>>>> documents, to be compatible with other computer users, etc.?
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> And let??Ts be realistic. We celebrate every single developer
>>>>>>> hired
>>>>>>> to
>>>>>>> improve accessibility. This tells something about the state of
>>>>>>> the
>>>>>>> matters. We cannot expect that a single person will fix all the
>>>>>>> kinds
>>>>>>> of accessibility problems in all the environments. Lukas works at
>>>>>>> his
>>>>>>> job focusing on certain areas currently seen there as urgent ones
>>>>>>> and I
>>>>>>> appreciate this opportunity. Anybody else seeing a need to work
>>>>>>> on
>>>>>>> other areas is welcome to contribute to whatever sees fit, as I
>>>>>>> do.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Regards,
>>>>>>> Milan
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>
>>
>
>
^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 78+ messages in thread
* "Accessibility in Fedora Workstation" (fwd)
[not found] ` <e3c7521b-cd73-38d7-0e9a-0e7a956e0f47@wisc.edu>
@ ` blinux-list
[not found] ` <04a701d8b196$0d63e190$80ffa8c0@Win7VM>
[not found] ` <Pine.LNX.4.64.2208170740540.1352313@server2.shellworld.net>
2 siblings, 0 replies; 78+ messages in thread
From: blinux-list @ UTC (permalink / raw)
Glenn,
let me see.
The NFB once tried to get New York state to stop providing services to
individuals using service animals.
For a time you could not get services there if using paratransit.
In the state of Wisconsin a blind child drowned at a NFB summer camp,
because the teacher thought they were providing Nfb philosophy swimming
training...no suite from the blind parents, their kid died for the NfB
cause.
And from my personal experience, because of both Nfb stance and other
perspectives after I was accepted into Georgetown law school and catholic
University school of law, the state of Arkansas would not buy me a
computer....at all.
And of course there are the cult like practices at Nfb training centers
where individuals are expected to cut off ties with their families, are
forced to become blind by the organizations definition, and discouraged
from even using sighted help when shopping unless the help is paid.
do not ever suggest that the NfB philosophy has provided anything
uniformly respectable for anyone.
Oh, the labor laws they violate in the state of Maryland...the more I
write the more examples I can recall.
Lord when I worked for Xerox, it was the newly blinded I would meet being
told they were not good blind people if their canes looked different by
Nfb standards
Karen
On Tue, 16 Aug 2022, John G. Heim wrote:
> Holy cow! Are you aware that the NFB once asked Microsoft to *NOT* improve
> Narrator to the point where it would compete with Jaws? If you think the NFB
> is incapable of forcing choices on people, you are very sadly mistaken.
>
>
>
> On 8/16/22 09:36, K0LNY_Glenn wrote:
>> This sort of thing would never happen in Nebraska, or any state where the
>> agency staff is of the NFB philosophy.
>> Say what you want about the NFB, no organization is without its problems,
>> but it is the core philosophy that formed the NFB that knows that society
>> has low expectations of the Blind, and this is why the NFB believes in
>> skills and high expectations.
>> And with that, comes giving respect to the Blind, like the respect of
>> choice.
>> Yeah I know about the information of recent about NFB abuse, but this is
>> organizational issues, unrelated to the philosophy. In fact, the fact
>> that
>> it has come up demonstrates that the NFB is no different than any other
>> organization in interpersonal staff issues.
>> And choice does not mean training center choices.
>> Choice isn't always an option, just like if you took a vocational course
>> in
>> college, there are things you have to take, so to me, the lack of choice
>> in
>> this regard is different than computer software, where all the choices
>> will
>> reach the same end result.
>> In states where the NFB philosophy is embraced, if a client said I want to
>> use a Mac, or I want Window Eyes, then that is what they would get, no
>> questions asked.
>> They would not have to fight to get it.
>> I simply cannot imagine a counselor saying that someone has to use the
>> software that the counselor wants them to have.
>> When I hear that stuff, I almost cannot believe it, but I know Butch well
>> enough to know he wouldn't make that up.
>>
>> Glenn
>> ----- Original Message -----
>> From: "Butch Bussen" <butchb at shellworld.net>
>> To: "Karen Lewellen" <klewellen at shellworld.net>
>> Cc: "K0LNY_Glenn" <glenn at ervin.email>; <speakup at linux-speakup.org>; "Milan
>> Zamazal" <pdm at zamazal.org>; <Blinux-list at redhat.com>
>> Sent: Tuesday, August 16, 2022 8:18 AM
>> Subject: Re: "Accessibility in Fedora Workstation" (fwd)
>>
>>
>> You are right. In Nevada, freedom pushed jaws to the rehab people and
>> took them out for steak diners and so forth. I fought like hell to get
>> them to buy window-eyes.
>> 73
>> Butch
>> WA0VJR
>> Node 3148
>> Wallace, ks.
>>
>>
>> On Sun, 14 Aug 2022, Karen Lewellen wrote:
>>
>> > And where do these employers learn about jaws?
>> > In fact, provide if you do not mind an example of how this works
>> > exactly.
>> > after all, unless I am incorrect, these employers are not personal Jaws
>> > users, meaning someone they trust continues to sell them on an expensive
>> > program instead of a largely free one.
>> >
>> >
>> >
>> > On Sat, 13 Aug 2022, K0LNY_Glenn wrote:
>> >
>> > > Karen,
>> > > Most employers don't want NVDA, and will only allow Jaws.
>> > > In Nebraska, if an employer said put on whatever works, the
>> > > counselors
>> > > will
>> > > use NVDA, because of the cost of Jaws.
>> > > If some of the clients in a call center already use Jaws, but don't
>> > > know
>> > > NVDA, the counselor will use Jaws, because the other clients will
>> > > need
>> > > to
>> > > learn one of the two.
>> > > So it's all choice, but in the workplace, it depends on what the
>> > > employer
>> > > will allow.
>> > > Also, sometimes scripts need to be made, and there are more Jaws
>> > > scripters
>> > > available than there are NVDA add-on writers.
>> > > So this perception that Jaws is forced by rehab, from my 31 years in
>> > > the
>> > > business I can say is rubbish.
>> > > Now, if a counselor did not know how to use NVDA, and either may be
>> > > chosen,
>> > > the rehab counselor is able to select the one that the counselor
>> > > feels
>> > > is
>> > > best for the student and for the counselor's teaching.
>> > > When it comes to part B moneys, which is used for non-vocational
>> > > purchases,
>> > > where a lot of Jaws purchases come from, it is in the agency's best
>> > > interest
>> > > to spend as little as possible, because that doesn't come back like
>> > > VR
>> > > expenditures do.
>> > > Glenn
>> > >
>> > > ----- Original Message -----
>> > > From: "Karen Lewellen" <klewellen at shellworld.net>
>> > > To: "K0LNY_Glenn" <glenn at ervin.email>
>> > > Cc: <speakup at linux-speakup.org>; "Milan Zamazal" <pdm at zamazal.org>;
>> > > <Blinux-list at redhat.com>
>> > > Sent: Saturday, August 13, 2022 6:15 PM
>> > > Subject: Re: "Accessibility in Fedora Workstation" (fwd)
>> > >
>> > >
>> > > The challenge with that example is that, as one often gets reminded,
>> > > the
>> > > rehab systems track record for facilitating employment for their
>> > > clients
>> > > is quite poor.
>> > > With a high percentage of unemployment among our clients. Making,
>> > > speaking personally, your buying Jaws for personal use not really
>> > > reflecting how the system would respond to an alternative request.
>> > > Now if someone from organized rehab said, okay freedom scientific,
>> > > we
>> > > are
>> > > creating an employment program where our clients will train in
>> > > Linux,
>> > > needing a solid screen reader solution for the system. We will give
>> > > you
>> > > an
>> > > exclusive development contract for s millions to create the tool.
>> > > Fs would likely say where do we sign?
>> > >
>> > >
>> > >
>> > > On Sat, 13 Aug 2022, K0LNY_Glenn wrote:
>> > >
>> > > > True enough, but largely, rehab people typically use Windows at
>> > > > work,
>> > > > and
>> > > > probably at home, but they need to cater to the needs of the
>> > > > client.
>> > > > If a client used Linux, I doubt that any rehab counselor would
>> > > > advocate
>> > > > that
>> > > > the client switch to Windows, unless that was needed for a
>> > > > specific
>> > > > job.
>> > > > In Nebraska, we purchased Jaws much more for personal use than we
>> > > > did
>> > > > for
>> > > > work related situations.
>> > > > So if FS made a JFL, and people were using Linux, rehab would
>> > > > indeed
>> > > > purchase a JFL product.
>> > > > Glenn
>> > > > ----- Original Message -----
>> > > > From: "Karen Lewellen" <klewellen at shellworld.net>
>> > > > To: "K0LNY_Glenn" <glenn at ervin.email>
>> > > > Cc: <speakup at linux-speakup.org>; "Milan Zamazal"
>> > > > <pdm at zamazal.org>;
>> > > > <Blinux-list at redhat.com>
>> > > > Sent: Saturday, August 13, 2022 3:01 PM
>> > > > Subject: Re: "Accessibility in Fedora Workstation" (fwd)
>> > > >
>> > > >
>> > > > there was an interesting discussion a month or so back on the
>> > > > blinux
>> > > > list
>> > > > about how long it took completing tasks in the gui as apposed to
>> > > > say
>> > > > command line, the comments were quite informative.
>> > > > Still, fs has never marketed largely to the end user. Instead they
>> > > > market
>> > > > to the American rehab community.
>> > > > how much market research has the rehab community done to support
>> > > > the
>> > > > need
>> > > > for choices?
>> > > > How many rehab counselors support training in Linux?
>> > > > one comment made by the subject of this thread about poor quality
>> > > > speech
>> > > > is a fine one...out of the box Linux has few speech choices.
>> > > > everyone
>> > > > brings their needs to the table there.
>> > > >
>> > > > if you want to get fs to care about Linux, you need to prove
>> > > > there is
>> > > > money for them there, from their main source of income.
>> > > >
>> > > >
>> > > >
>> > > > On Sat, 13 Aug 2022, K0LNY_Glenn wrote:
>> > > >
>> > > > > Well since Orca seems to work on so many distros, I don't know
>> > > > > why
>> > > > > FS
>> > > > > would
>> > > > > not be able to do the same.
>> > > > > If Jaws users could switch into Linux, it would be a real game
>> > > > > changer,
>> > > > > and
>> > > > > I think with lots more Blind Linux users, we would start seeing
>> > > > > accessibility in Linux not being a second thought.
>> > > > > Glenn
>> > > > > ----- Original Message -----
>> > > > > From: "Karen Lewellen" <klewellen at shellworld.net>
>> > > > > To: "K0LNY_Glenn" <glenn at ervin.email>
>> > > > > Cc: <speakup at linux-speakup.org>; "Milan Zamazal"
>> > > > > <pdm at zamazal.org>;
>> > > > > <Blinux-list at redhat.com>
>> > > > > Sent: Saturday, August 13, 2022 1:47 PM
>> > > > > Subject: Re: "Accessibility in Fedora Workstation" (fwd)
>> > > > >
>> > > > >
>> > > > > Well technically freedom scientific does not exist any longer,
>> > > > > being
>> > > > > bought
>> > > > > by another company.
>> > > > > Still, I can respect why they, or nvda have not created their
>> > > > > tools
>> > > > > for
>> > > > > Linux.
>> > > > > That is because as I understand it, Linux is quite like clay.
>> > > > > You
>> > > > > can
>> > > > > mold a distribution into almost anything. there are various
>> > > > > personifications of the system, all sorts of ways and changes
>> > > > > and
>> > > > > options
>> > > > > for creativity.
>> > > > > however adaptive tools are often extensions of physical
>> > > > > characteristics,
>> > > > > hands, eyes, ears, brains, combinations of these.
>> > > > > To build solid assistive tools one must have a solid foundation
>> > > > > as
>> > > > > it
>> > > > > were. that is part of why there have needed to be so few Apple
>> > > > > efforts
>> > > > > at
>> > > > > inclusion, they created with, and then created in-house
>> > > > > adaptive
>> > > > > tools
>> > > > > for various populations that were built into the system.
>> > > > > Although Microsoft did not bother until much later, in theory at
>> > > > > least,
>> > > > > the
>> > > > > consistency of windows is what makes it possible for freedom or
>> > > > > the
>> > > > > former
>> > > > > gw micro or nvda to create something that can in theory work.
>> > > > > Floor for the furniture is somewhat solid.
>> > > > > Just my thoughts,
>> > > > >
>> > > > >
>> > > > >
>> > > > > On Sat, 13 Aug 2022, K0LNY_Glenn wrote:
>> > > > >
>> > > > > > I would like to see Freedom Scientific make a Jaws For Linux.
>> > > > > > JFL
>> > > > > > I'd certainly pay the yearly rental fee for it, and it would
>> > > > > > bring
>> > > > > > many
>> > > > > > more
>> > > > > > users into Linux.
>> > > > > > FS could, with its resources, possibly make it more robust
>> > > > > > than
>> > > > > > Orca.
>> > > > > >
>> > > > > > Glenn
>> > > > > > ----- Original Message -----
>> > > > > > From: "Milan Zamazal" <pdm at zamazal.org>
>> > > > > > To: <speakup at linux-speakup.org>
>> > > > > > Cc: <Blinux-list at redhat.com>
>> > > > > > Sent: Saturday, August 13, 2022 12:08 PM
>> > > > > > Subject: Re: "Accessibility in Fedora Workstation" (fwd)
>> > > > > >
>> > > > > >
>> > > > > > > > > > > "KL" == Karen Lewellen <klewellen at shellworld.net>
>> > > > > > > > > > > writes:
>> > > > > > KL> What bothers me most are his lack of actual qualifications,
>> > > > > > and
>> > > > > > KL> absolute dismissal of what he has not experienced..as if he
>> > > > > > KL> defines Linux usage for everyone. That attitude is
>> > > > > > KL> dangerous,
>> > > > > > KL> because he is educating those outside of the accessibility
>> > > > > > KL> experiences, who will believe his ignorance is factual. he
>> > > > > > has
>> > > > > > KL> to be expert, it is his job.
>> > > > > >
>> > > > > > Hi Karen,
>> > > > > >
>> > > > > > I know Lukas personally and I admire his skills and
>> > > > > > qualifications.
>> > > > > > I
>> > > > > > also know first hand that he is open to constructive feedback
>> > > > > > and
>> > > > > > I
>> > > > > > believe he??Td be happy to be corrected about possible
>> > > > > > technical
>> > > > > > inaccuracies in the interview. It may be also a good
>> > > > > > opportunity
>> > > > > > to
>> > > > > > find out what??Ts possibly missing in making anybody better
>> > > > > > informed.
>> > > > > >
>> > > > > > As for ??oabsolute dismissal of what he has not
>> > > > > > experienced???,
>> > > > > > what
>> > > > > > reasonable free software alternatives to a less or more
>> > > > > > standard
>> > > > > > desktop
>> > > > > > with Orca and a software synthesizer can you see for a common
>> > > > > > blind
>> > > > > > user
>> > > > > > who needs to use a fully working web browser, to read and
>> > > > > > process
>> > > > > > text
>> > > > > > documents, to be compatible with other computer users, etc.?
>> > > > > >
>> > > > > > And let??Ts be realistic. We celebrate every single
>> > > > > > developer
>> > > > > > hired
>> > > > > > to
>> > > > > > improve accessibility. This tells something about the state
>> > > > > > of
>> > > > > > the
>> > > > > > matters. We cannot expect that a single person will fix all
>> > > > > > the
>> > > > > > kinds
>> > > > > > of accessibility problems in all the environments. Lukas
>> > > > > > works at
>> > > > > > his
>> > > > > > job focusing on certain areas currently seen there as urgent
>> > > > > > ones
>> > > > > > and I
>> > > > > > appreciate this opportunity. Anybody else seeing a need to
>> > > > > > work
>> > > > > > on
>> > > > > > other areas is welcome to contribute to whatever sees fit, as
>> > > > > > I
>> > > > > > do.
>> > > > > >
>> > > > > > Regards,
>> > > > > > Milan
>> > > > > >
>> > > > > >
>> > > > > >
>> > > > > >
>> > > > >
>> > > >
>> > >
>>
>
>
>
^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 78+ messages in thread
* "Accessibility in Fedora Workstation" (fwd)
` blinux-list
@ ` blinux-list
` blinux-list
0 siblings, 1 reply; 78+ messages in thread
From: blinux-list @ UTC (permalink / raw)
Meantime, over this side of the Pond, the RNIB has a reputation of being
for old people.
See people rag on Narrator, but it's come on leaps and bounds.
So has Orca. I'd argue if you're on an LTS release, or a distro that
makes it hard to upgrade your Orca, you get a poor experience of it.
Looking at you, Debian and derivatives that ship with 3.3X instead of
Gnome and Gnome stacks of 40-42.X. Don't get me wrong, the idea of
stable, if old, software is great. But just as web browsers are updated
for security. I'd like to see A11Y stuff updated as well. Admittedly, I
can already imagine how much dependcy hell that would cause for
something like Ubuntu or Debian or Mint however.
That being said I'm now wondering if Orca could be offered as an all in
one bundle, such as an appimage or flatpack that could be plugged in and
ran. I don't know if what I'm on about is possible, really.
Also having read up on the abuse, I'm just going to point out it's not a
one time thing. Or limited to the NFB, large organizations have a
history of covering up whatever they choose to. Look at Enron for the
poster child of fraud, the Catholic Church or other religions for poster
examples of how to cover up abuse though
Also, I'd be interested in reading up more on the NFB wanting MS to not
develop A11Y tech for ear of competing. That sounds like the same thing
MS was doing in the mid-late 90s as ar as anti competitive practices
which led to the DoJ legal issues though.
On 8/16/22 17:56, Linux for blind general discussion wrote:
> Did you know the NFB once asked Microsoft to *NOT* develop Narrator to
> the point where it would compete with Jaws? If you think the NFB is
> incapable of forcing a choice on blind people, you are sadly mistaken.
>
>
> On 8/16/22 09:36, K0LNY_Glenn wrote:
>> This sort of thing would never happen in Nebraska, or any state where
>> the
>> agency staff is of the NFB philosophy.
>> Say what you want about the NFB, no organization is without its
>> problems,
>> but it is the core philosophy that formed the NFB that knows that
>> society
>> has low expectations of the Blind, and this is why the NFB believes in
>> skills and high expectations.
>> And with that, comes giving respect to the Blind, like the respect of
>> choice.
>> Yeah I know about the information of recent about NFB abuse, but this is
>> organizational issues, unrelated to the philosophy.? In fact, the
>> fact that
>> it has come up demonstrates that the NFB is no different than any other
>> organization in interpersonal staff issues.
>> And choice does not mean training center choices.
>> Choice isn't always an option, just like if you took a vocational
>> course in
>> college, there are things you have to take, so to me, the lack of
>> choice in
>> this regard is different than computer software, where all the
>> choices will
>> reach the same end result.
>> In states where the NFB philosophy is embraced, if a client said I
>> want to
>> use a Mac, or I want Window Eyes, then that is what they would get, no
>> questions asked.
>> They would not have to fight to get it.
>> I simply cannot imagine a counselor saying that someone has to use the
>> software that the counselor wants them to have.
>> When I hear that stuff, I almost cannot believe it, but I know Butch
>> well
>> enough to know he wouldn't make that up.
>>
>> Glenn
>> ----- Original Message -----
>> From: "Butch Bussen" <butchb at shellworld.net>
>> To: "Karen Lewellen" <klewellen at shellworld.net>
>> Cc: "K0LNY_Glenn" <glenn at ervin.email>; <speakup at linux-speakup.org>;
>> "Milan
>> Zamazal" <pdm at zamazal.org>; <Blinux-list at redhat.com>
>> Sent: Tuesday, August 16, 2022 8:18 AM
>> Subject: Re: "Accessibility in Fedora Workstation" (fwd)
>>
>>
>> You are right.? In Nevada, freedom pushed jaws to the rehab people and
>> took them out for steak diners and so forth.? I fought like hell to get
>> them to buy window-eyes.
>> 73
>> Butch
>> WA0VJR
>> Node 3148
>> Wallace, ks.
>>
>>
>> On Sun, 14 Aug 2022, Karen Lewellen wrote:
>>
>>> And where do these employers learn about jaws?
>>> In fact, provide if you do not mind an example of how? this works
>>> exactly.
>>> after all, unless I am incorrect, these employers are not personal Jaws
>>> users, meaning someone they trust continues to sell them on an
>>> expensive
>>> program instead of a largely free one.
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> On Sat, 13 Aug 2022, K0LNY_Glenn wrote:
>>>
>>>> ? Karen,
>>>> ? Most employers don't want NVDA, and will only allow Jaws.
>>>> ? In Nebraska, if an employer said put on whatever works, the
>>>> counselors
>>>> ? will
>>>> ? use NVDA, because of the cost of Jaws.
>>>> ? If some of the clients in a call center already use Jaws, but
>>>> don't know
>>>> ? NVDA, the counselor will use Jaws, because the other clients will
>>>> need
>>>> to
>>>> ? learn one of the two.
>>>> ? So it's all choice, but in the workplace, it depends on what the
>>>> employer
>>>> ? will allow.
>>>> ? Also, sometimes scripts need to be made, and there are more Jaws
>>>> scripters
>>>> ? available than there are NVDA add-on writers.
>>>> ? So this perception that Jaws is forced by rehab, from my 31 years
>>>> in the
>>>> ? business I can say is rubbish.
>>>> ? Now, if a counselor did not know how to use NVDA, and either may be
>>>> ? chosen,
>>>> ? the rehab counselor is able to select the one that the counselor
>>>> feels
>>>> is
>>>> ? best for the student and for the counselor's teaching.
>>>> ? When it comes to part B moneys, which is used for non-vocational
>>>> ? purchases,
>>>> ? where a lot of Jaws purchases come from, it is in the agency's best
>>>> ? interest
>>>> ? to spend as little as possible, because that doesn't come back
>>>> like VR
>>>> ? expenditures do.
>>>> ? Glenn
>>>>
>>>> ? ----- Original Message -----
>>>> ? From: "Karen Lewellen" <klewellen at shellworld.net>
>>>> ? To: "K0LNY_Glenn" <glenn at ervin.email>
>>>> ? Cc: <speakup at linux-speakup.org>; "Milan Zamazal" <pdm at zamazal.org>;
>>>> ? <Blinux-list at redhat.com>
>>>> ? Sent: Saturday, August 13, 2022 6:15 PM
>>>> ? Subject: Re: "Accessibility in Fedora Workstation" (fwd)
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> ? The challenge with that example is that, as one often gets reminded,
>>>> the
>>>> ? rehab systems track record for facilitating? employment for their
>>>> clients
>>>> ? is quite poor.
>>>> ? With a high percentage of unemployment among our clients. Making,
>>>> ? speaking personally, your buying Jaws for personal use not really
>>>> ? reflecting how the system would respond to an alternative request.
>>>> ? Now if someone from organized rehab said, okay freedom
>>>> scientific, we
>>>> are
>>>> ? creating an employment program where our clients will train in
>>>> Linux,
>>>> ? needing a solid screen reader solution for the system.? We will
>>>> give you
>>>> ? an
>>>> ? exclusive development contract for s millions to create the tool.
>>>> ? Fs would likely say where do we sign?
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> ? On Sat, 13 Aug 2022, K0LNY_Glenn wrote:
>>>>
>>>>> ? True enough, but largely, rehab people typically use Windows at
>>>>> work,
>>>>> ? and
>>>>> ? probably at home, but they need to cater to the needs of the
>>>>> client.
>>>>> ? If a client used Linux, I doubt that any rehab counselor would
>>>>> advocate
>>>>> ? that
>>>>> ? the client switch to Windows, unless that was needed for a specific
>>>>> job.
>>>>> ? In Nebraska, we purchased Jaws much more for personal use than
>>>>> we did
>>>>> ? for
>>>>> ? work related situations.
>>>>> ? So if FS made a JFL, and people were using Linux, rehab would
>>>>> indeed
>>>>> ? purchase a JFL product.
>>>>> ? Glenn
>>>>> ? ----- Original Message -----
>>>>> ? From: "Karen Lewellen" <klewellen at shellworld.net>
>>>>> ? To: "K0LNY_Glenn" <glenn at ervin.email>
>>>>> ? Cc: <speakup at linux-speakup.org>; "Milan Zamazal" <pdm at zamazal.org>;
>>>>> ? <Blinux-list at redhat.com>
>>>>> ? Sent: Saturday, August 13, 2022 3:01 PM
>>>>> ? Subject: Re: "Accessibility in Fedora Workstation" (fwd)
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> ? there was an interesting discussion a month or so back on the
>>>>> blinux
>>>>> ? list
>>>>> ? about how long it took completing tasks in the gui as apposed to
>>>>> say
>>>>> ? command line,? the comments were quite informative.
>>>>> ? Still, fs has never marketed largely to the end user. Instead they
>>>>> ? market
>>>>> ? to the American rehab community.
>>>>> ? how much market research has? the rehab community done to
>>>>> support the
>>>>> ? need
>>>>> ? for choices?
>>>>> ? How many rehab counselors support? training in Linux?
>>>>> ? one comment made by the subject of this thread about poor quality
>>>>> speech
>>>>> ? is a fine one...out of the box Linux has few speech choices.?
>>>>> everyone
>>>>> ? brings their needs to the table there.
>>>>>
>>>>> ? if you want to get fs to care about Linux, you? need to prove
>>>>> there is
>>>>> ? money for? them there, from their main source of income.
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> ? On Sat, 13 Aug 2022, K0LNY_Glenn wrote:
>>>>>
>>>>>> ? Well since Orca seems to work on so many distros, I don't know why
>>>>>> FS
>>>>>> ? would
>>>>>> ? not be able to do the same.
>>>>>> ? If Jaws users could switch into Linux, it would be a real game
>>>>>> ? changer,
>>>>>> ? and
>>>>>> ? I think with lots more Blind Linux users, we would start seeing
>>>>>> ? accessibility in Linux not being a second thought.
>>>>>> ? Glenn
>>>>>> ? ----- Original Message -----
>>>>>> ? From: "Karen Lewellen" <klewellen at shellworld.net>
>>>>>> ? To: "K0LNY_Glenn" <glenn at ervin.email>
>>>>>> ? Cc: <speakup at linux-speakup.org>; "Milan Zamazal"
>>>>>> <pdm at zamazal.org>;
>>>>>> ? <Blinux-list at redhat.com>
>>>>>> ? Sent: Saturday, August 13, 2022 1:47 PM
>>>>>> ? Subject: Re: "Accessibility in Fedora Workstation" (fwd)
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>> ? Well technically freedom scientific does not exist any longer,
>>>>>> being
>>>>>> ? bought
>>>>>> ? by another company.
>>>>>> ? Still, I can respect why they, or nvda have not created their
>>>>>> tools
>>>>>> ? for
>>>>>> ? Linux.
>>>>>> ? That is because as I understand it, Linux is? quite like clay. You
>>>>>> can
>>>>>> ? mold a distribution into almost anything. there are various
>>>>>> ? personifications of the system, all sorts of ways and changes and
>>>>>> ? options
>>>>>> ? for creativity.
>>>>>> ? however adaptive tools are often extensions of physical
>>>>>> ? characteristics,
>>>>>> ? hands, eyes, ears, brains, combinations of these.
>>>>>> ? To build solid assistive tools one must have a solid foundation as
>>>>>> it
>>>>>> ? were.? that is part of why there have needed to be so few Apple
>>>>>> ? efforts
>>>>>> ? at
>>>>>> ? inclusion, they? created? with, and then created in-house adaptive
>>>>>> ? tools
>>>>>> ? for various? populations that were built into the system.
>>>>>> ? Although Microsoft did not bother until much later, in theory at
>>>>>> ? least,
>>>>>> ? the
>>>>>> ? consistency of windows is what makes it possible for freedom or
>>>>>> the
>>>>>> ? former
>>>>>> ? gw? micro or nvda to create something that can in theory? work.
>>>>>> ? Floor for the furniture is somewhat solid.
>>>>>> ? Just my thoughts,
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>> ? On Sat, 13 Aug 2022, K0LNY_Glenn wrote:
>>>>>>
>>>>>>> ? I would like to see Freedom Scientific make a Jaws For Linux.
>>>>>>> ? JFL
>>>>>>> ? I'd certainly pay the yearly rental fee for it, and it would
>>>>>>> bring
>>>>>>> ? many
>>>>>>> ? more
>>>>>>> ? users into Linux.
>>>>>>> ? FS could, with its resources, possibly make it more robust than
>>>>>>> ? Orca.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> ? Glenn
>>>>>>> ? ----- Original Message -----
>>>>>>> ? From: "Milan Zamazal" <pdm at zamazal.org>
>>>>>>> ? To: <speakup at linux-speakup.org>
>>>>>>> ? Cc: <Blinux-list at redhat.com>
>>>>>>> ? Sent: Saturday, August 13, 2022 12:08 PM
>>>>>>> ? Subject: Re: "Accessibility in Fedora Workstation" (fwd)
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>> ? "KL" == Karen Lewellen <klewellen at shellworld.net>
>>>>>>>>>>>> writes:
>>>>>>> KL>? What bothers me most are his lack of actual qualifications,
>>>>>>> and
>>>>>>> KL>? absolute dismissal of what he has not experienced..as if he
>>>>>>> KL>? defines Linux usage for everyone.? That attitude is dangerous,
>>>>>>> KL>? because he is educating those outside of the accessibility
>>>>>>> KL>? experiences, who will believe his ignorance is factual.? he
>>>>>>> has
>>>>>>> KL>? to be expert, it is his job.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> ? Hi Karen,
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> ? I know Lukas personally and I admire his skills and
>>>>>>> qualifications.
>>>>>>> ? I
>>>>>>> ? also know first hand that he is open to constructive feedback and
>>>>>>> I
>>>>>>> ? believe he??Td be happy to be corrected about possible technical
>>>>>>> ? inaccuracies in the interview.? It may be also a good opportunity
>>>>>>> to
>>>>>>> ? find out what??Ts possibly missing in making anybody better
>>>>>>> ? informed.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> ? As for ??oabsolute dismissal of what he has not experienced???,
>>>>>>> what
>>>>>>> ? reasonable free software alternatives to a less or more standard
>>>>>>> ? desktop
>>>>>>> ? with Orca and a software synthesizer can you see for a common
>>>>>>> blind
>>>>>>> ? user
>>>>>>> ? who needs to use a fully working web browser, to read and process
>>>>>>> ? text
>>>>>>> ? documents, to be compatible with other computer users, etc.?
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> ? And let??Ts be realistic.? We celebrate every single developer
>>>>>>> hired
>>>>>>> ? to
>>>>>>> ? improve accessibility.? This tells something about the state of
>>>>>>> the
>>>>>>> ? matters.? We cannot expect that a single person will fix all the
>>>>>>> ? kinds
>>>>>>> ? of accessibility problems in all the environments. Lukas works at
>>>>>>> ? his
>>>>>>> ? job focusing on certain areas currently seen there as urgent ones
>>>>>>> ? and I
>>>>>>> ? appreciate this opportunity.? Anybody else seeing a need to work
>>>>>>> on
>>>>>>> ? other areas is welcome to contribute to whatever sees fit, as I
>>>>>>> do.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> ? Regards,
>>>>>>> ? Milan
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>
>>
>
> _______________________________________________
> Blinux-list mailing list
> Blinux-list at redhat.com
> https://listman.redhat.com/mailman/listinfo/blinux-list
^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 78+ messages in thread
* "Accessibility in Fedora Workstation" (fwd)
[not found] ` <049901d8b17d$8869e7e0$80ffa8c0@Win7VM>
@ ` blinux-list
` blinux-list
[not found] ` <e3c7521b-cd73-38d7-0e9a-0e7a956e0f47@wisc.edu>
1 sibling, 1 reply; 78+ messages in thread
From: blinux-list @ UTC (permalink / raw)
Did you know the NFB once asked Microsoft to *NOT* develop Narrator to
the point where it would compete with Jaws? If you think the NFB is
incapable of forcing a choice on blind people, you are sadly mistaken.
On 8/16/22 09:36, K0LNY_Glenn wrote:
> This sort of thing would never happen in Nebraska, or any state where the
> agency staff is of the NFB philosophy.
> Say what you want about the NFB, no organization is without its problems,
> but it is the core philosophy that formed the NFB that knows that society
> has low expectations of the Blind, and this is why the NFB believes in
> skills and high expectations.
> And with that, comes giving respect to the Blind, like the respect of
> choice.
> Yeah I know about the information of recent about NFB abuse, but this is
> organizational issues, unrelated to the philosophy. In fact, the fact that
> it has come up demonstrates that the NFB is no different than any other
> organization in interpersonal staff issues.
> And choice does not mean training center choices.
> Choice isn't always an option, just like if you took a vocational course in
> college, there are things you have to take, so to me, the lack of choice in
> this regard is different than computer software, where all the choices will
> reach the same end result.
> In states where the NFB philosophy is embraced, if a client said I want to
> use a Mac, or I want Window Eyes, then that is what they would get, no
> questions asked.
> They would not have to fight to get it.
> I simply cannot imagine a counselor saying that someone has to use the
> software that the counselor wants them to have.
> When I hear that stuff, I almost cannot believe it, but I know Butch well
> enough to know he wouldn't make that up.
>
> Glenn
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: "Butch Bussen" <butchb at shellworld.net>
> To: "Karen Lewellen" <klewellen at shellworld.net>
> Cc: "K0LNY_Glenn" <glenn at ervin.email>; <speakup at linux-speakup.org>; "Milan
> Zamazal" <pdm at zamazal.org>; <Blinux-list at redhat.com>
> Sent: Tuesday, August 16, 2022 8:18 AM
> Subject: Re: "Accessibility in Fedora Workstation" (fwd)
>
>
> You are right. In Nevada, freedom pushed jaws to the rehab people and
> took them out for steak diners and so forth. I fought like hell to get
> them to buy window-eyes.
> 73
> Butch
> WA0VJR
> Node 3148
> Wallace, ks.
>
>
> On Sun, 14 Aug 2022, Karen Lewellen wrote:
>
>> And where do these employers learn about jaws?
>> In fact, provide if you do not mind an example of how this works exactly.
>> after all, unless I am incorrect, these employers are not personal Jaws
>> users, meaning someone they trust continues to sell them on an expensive
>> program instead of a largely free one.
>>
>>
>>
>> On Sat, 13 Aug 2022, K0LNY_Glenn wrote:
>>
>>> Karen,
>>> Most employers don't want NVDA, and will only allow Jaws.
>>> In Nebraska, if an employer said put on whatever works, the counselors
>>> will
>>> use NVDA, because of the cost of Jaws.
>>> If some of the clients in a call center already use Jaws, but don't know
>>> NVDA, the counselor will use Jaws, because the other clients will need
>>> to
>>> learn one of the two.
>>> So it's all choice, but in the workplace, it depends on what the
>>> employer
>>> will allow.
>>> Also, sometimes scripts need to be made, and there are more Jaws
>>> scripters
>>> available than there are NVDA add-on writers.
>>> So this perception that Jaws is forced by rehab, from my 31 years in the
>>> business I can say is rubbish.
>>> Now, if a counselor did not know how to use NVDA, and either may be
>>> chosen,
>>> the rehab counselor is able to select the one that the counselor feels
>>> is
>>> best for the student and for the counselor's teaching.
>>> When it comes to part B moneys, which is used for non-vocational
>>> purchases,
>>> where a lot of Jaws purchases come from, it is in the agency's best
>>> interest
>>> to spend as little as possible, because that doesn't come back like VR
>>> expenditures do.
>>> Glenn
>>>
>>> ----- Original Message -----
>>> From: "Karen Lewellen" <klewellen at shellworld.net>
>>> To: "K0LNY_Glenn" <glenn at ervin.email>
>>> Cc: <speakup at linux-speakup.org>; "Milan Zamazal" <pdm at zamazal.org>;
>>> <Blinux-list at redhat.com>
>>> Sent: Saturday, August 13, 2022 6:15 PM
>>> Subject: Re: "Accessibility in Fedora Workstation" (fwd)
>>>
>>>
>>> The challenge with that example is that, as one often gets reminded,
>>> the
>>> rehab systems track record for facilitating employment for their
>>> clients
>>> is quite poor.
>>> With a high percentage of unemployment among our clients. Making,
>>> speaking personally, your buying Jaws for personal use not really
>>> reflecting how the system would respond to an alternative request.
>>> Now if someone from organized rehab said, okay freedom scientific, we
>>> are
>>> creating an employment program where our clients will train in Linux,
>>> needing a solid screen reader solution for the system. We will give you
>>> an
>>> exclusive development contract for s millions to create the tool.
>>> Fs would likely say where do we sign?
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> On Sat, 13 Aug 2022, K0LNY_Glenn wrote:
>>>
>>>> True enough, but largely, rehab people typically use Windows at work,
>>>> and
>>>> probably at home, but they need to cater to the needs of the client.
>>>> If a client used Linux, I doubt that any rehab counselor would
>>>> advocate
>>>> that
>>>> the client switch to Windows, unless that was needed for a specific
>>>> job.
>>>> In Nebraska, we purchased Jaws much more for personal use than we did
>>>> for
>>>> work related situations.
>>>> So if FS made a JFL, and people were using Linux, rehab would indeed
>>>> purchase a JFL product.
>>>> Glenn
>>>> ----- Original Message -----
>>>> From: "Karen Lewellen" <klewellen at shellworld.net>
>>>> To: "K0LNY_Glenn" <glenn at ervin.email>
>>>> Cc: <speakup at linux-speakup.org>; "Milan Zamazal" <pdm at zamazal.org>;
>>>> <Blinux-list at redhat.com>
>>>> Sent: Saturday, August 13, 2022 3:01 PM
>>>> Subject: Re: "Accessibility in Fedora Workstation" (fwd)
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> there was an interesting discussion a month or so back on the blinux
>>>> list
>>>> about how long it took completing tasks in the gui as apposed to say
>>>> command line, the comments were quite informative.
>>>> Still, fs has never marketed largely to the end user. Instead they
>>>> market
>>>> to the American rehab community.
>>>> how much market research has the rehab community done to support the
>>>> need
>>>> for choices?
>>>> How many rehab counselors support training in Linux?
>>>> one comment made by the subject of this thread about poor quality
>>>> speech
>>>> is a fine one...out of the box Linux has few speech choices. everyone
>>>> brings their needs to the table there.
>>>>
>>>> if you want to get fs to care about Linux, you need to prove there is
>>>> money for them there, from their main source of income.
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> On Sat, 13 Aug 2022, K0LNY_Glenn wrote:
>>>>
>>>>> Well since Orca seems to work on so many distros, I don't know why
>>>>> FS
>>>>> would
>>>>> not be able to do the same.
>>>>> If Jaws users could switch into Linux, it would be a real game
>>>>> changer,
>>>>> and
>>>>> I think with lots more Blind Linux users, we would start seeing
>>>>> accessibility in Linux not being a second thought.
>>>>> Glenn
>>>>> ----- Original Message -----
>>>>> From: "Karen Lewellen" <klewellen at shellworld.net>
>>>>> To: "K0LNY_Glenn" <glenn at ervin.email>
>>>>> Cc: <speakup at linux-speakup.org>; "Milan Zamazal" <pdm at zamazal.org>;
>>>>> <Blinux-list at redhat.com>
>>>>> Sent: Saturday, August 13, 2022 1:47 PM
>>>>> Subject: Re: "Accessibility in Fedora Workstation" (fwd)
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> Well technically freedom scientific does not exist any longer, being
>>>>> bought
>>>>> by another company.
>>>>> Still, I can respect why they, or nvda have not created their tools
>>>>> for
>>>>> Linux.
>>>>> That is because as I understand it, Linux is quite like clay. You
>>>>> can
>>>>> mold a distribution into almost anything. there are various
>>>>> personifications of the system, all sorts of ways and changes and
>>>>> options
>>>>> for creativity.
>>>>> however adaptive tools are often extensions of physical
>>>>> characteristics,
>>>>> hands, eyes, ears, brains, combinations of these.
>>>>> To build solid assistive tools one must have a solid foundation as
>>>>> it
>>>>> were. that is part of why there have needed to be so few Apple
>>>>> efforts
>>>>> at
>>>>> inclusion, they created with, and then created in-house adaptive
>>>>> tools
>>>>> for various populations that were built into the system.
>>>>> Although Microsoft did not bother until much later, in theory at
>>>>> least,
>>>>> the
>>>>> consistency of windows is what makes it possible for freedom or the
>>>>> former
>>>>> gw micro or nvda to create something that can in theory work.
>>>>> Floor for the furniture is somewhat solid.
>>>>> Just my thoughts,
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> On Sat, 13 Aug 2022, K0LNY_Glenn wrote:
>>>>>
>>>>>> I would like to see Freedom Scientific make a Jaws For Linux.
>>>>>> JFL
>>>>>> I'd certainly pay the yearly rental fee for it, and it would bring
>>>>>> many
>>>>>> more
>>>>>> users into Linux.
>>>>>> FS could, with its resources, possibly make it more robust than
>>>>>> Orca.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Glenn
>>>>>> ----- Original Message -----
>>>>>> From: "Milan Zamazal" <pdm at zamazal.org>
>>>>>> To: <speakup at linux-speakup.org>
>>>>>> Cc: <Blinux-list at redhat.com>
>>>>>> Sent: Saturday, August 13, 2022 12:08 PM
>>>>>> Subject: Re: "Accessibility in Fedora Workstation" (fwd)
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>> "KL" == Karen Lewellen <klewellen at shellworld.net>
>>>>>>>>>>> writes:
>>>>>> KL> What bothers me most are his lack of actual qualifications,
>>>>>> and
>>>>>> KL> absolute dismissal of what he has not experienced..as if he
>>>>>> KL> defines Linux usage for everyone. That attitude is dangerous,
>>>>>> KL> because he is educating those outside of the accessibility
>>>>>> KL> experiences, who will believe his ignorance is factual. he
>>>>>> has
>>>>>> KL> to be expert, it is his job.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Hi Karen,
>>>>>>
>>>>>> I know Lukas personally and I admire his skills and
>>>>>> qualifications.
>>>>>> I
>>>>>> also know first hand that he is open to constructive feedback and
>>>>>> I
>>>>>> believe he??Td be happy to be corrected about possible technical
>>>>>> inaccuracies in the interview. It may be also a good opportunity
>>>>>> to
>>>>>> find out what??Ts possibly missing in making anybody better
>>>>>> informed.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> As for ??oabsolute dismissal of what he has not experienced???,
>>>>>> what
>>>>>> reasonable free software alternatives to a less or more standard
>>>>>> desktop
>>>>>> with Orca and a software synthesizer can you see for a common
>>>>>> blind
>>>>>> user
>>>>>> who needs to use a fully working web browser, to read and process
>>>>>> text
>>>>>> documents, to be compatible with other computer users, etc.?
>>>>>>
>>>>>> And let??Ts be realistic. We celebrate every single developer
>>>>>> hired
>>>>>> to
>>>>>> improve accessibility. This tells something about the state of
>>>>>> the
>>>>>> matters. We cannot expect that a single person will fix all the
>>>>>> kinds
>>>>>> of accessibility problems in all the environments. Lukas works at
>>>>>> his
>>>>>> job focusing on certain areas currently seen there as urgent ones
>>>>>> and I
>>>>>> appreciate this opportunity. Anybody else seeing a need to work
>>>>>> on
>>>>>> other areas is welcome to contribute to whatever sees fit, as I
>>>>>> do.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Regards,
>>>>>> Milan
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>
>>>
>
^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 78+ messages in thread
* "Accessibility in Fedora Workstation" (fwd)
` blinux-list
` blinux-list
@ ` blinux-list
1 sibling, 0 replies; 78+ messages in thread
From: blinux-list @ UTC (permalink / raw)
Somebody wrote:
> Is he correct that speakup default installs to a hardware synthesizer?
It is correct that by itself, speakup (i.e. the piece inside the kernel)
can only driver hardware synthesizers. To get software synthesizers
working, one need to run them in userland and plug to speakup with
espeakup or speechd-up.
For information, he does very much welcome pointers and hints, so feel
free to send him anything you believe could help him, he'll be glad to
have a look.
Samuel
^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 78+ messages in thread
* "Accessibility in Fedora Workstation" (fwd)
` blinux-list
@ ` blinux-list
0 siblings, 0 replies; 78+ messages in thread
From: blinux-list @ UTC (permalink / raw)
Kyle, I have no idea what's so different about our computers. I wish I knew
enough to debug what's going so wrong on mine to cause Orca to crash so
frequently. But I can't use Linux in this current situation, so I'll wait a
while, and try again, maybe after accessibility fixes happen in Gnome and
such.
Devin Prater
r.d.t.prater at gmail.com
On Mon, Aug 15, 2022 at 12:09 PM Linux for blind general discussion <
blinux-list at redhat.com> wrote:
> Hi all.
> I've been using linux at work and at home for at least 12 years.
> I certainly encounter accessibility problems as I also encountered when
> I was a windows user.
> In my opinion, accessibility in linux has improved a lot, even because
> there seems to be a greater interest in the community in using linux.
> By the way, this message was written and sent from a computer with
> fedora workstation version 36 installed.
>
> On 8/15/22 10:25, Linux for blind general discussion wrote:
> > For me, I still love Linux enough to keep up with the accessibility
> stuff,
> > and even try it every six months or so. However, the last time I tried
> it,
> > Orca was so unstable that I managed to crash it by pressing Alt + Tab.
> Now,
> > this was on an HP Pavilian laptop, but I don't see how any lack of
> hardware
> > drivers would *only* effect accessibility. I tried Fedora, Ubuntu, and I
> > think Mint. All performed the same. Well, Ubuntu lasted a bit longer but
> > still, wow. Now, before I get another batch of complain-mail, I'm not
> > saying Linux isn't usable for those who don't have demanding jobs with
> > oodles of rolls to fill and hats to wear and people to work with. It's
> nice
> > for home users and simple tasks, and even some development, in Emacs or
> > Nano or VIM or whatever. But it's not ready for *me* yet, and the people
> > who still develop NVDA addons, apps like Tweesecake and Bookworm, and
> > remote desktop solutions, all show, to me at least, that Linux isn't
> ready
> > for them yet either. I could be wrong. I admit it. But those are my
> > opinions, backed up by *my* experiences.
> > Devin Prater
> > r.d.t.prater at gmail.com
> >
> >
> >
> >
> > On Mon, Aug 15, 2022 at 8:12 AM Linux for blind general discussion <
> > blinux-list at redhat.com> wrote:
> >
> >> (from Matt Campbell)
> >>
> >> Thanks all for the appreciation and memories. But I'm afraid that, at
> >> the risk of getting philosophical, the person who created ZipSpeak and
> >> trplayer no longer exists. I remember being him, and I still have his
> >> name and email address, but I'm no longer him. I've changed so much over
> >> the two decades since then. Nothing makes that clearer than Chris's and
> >> Karen's concerns about my attitude toward Linux console users and, more
> >> generally, people who don't follow the whims of mainstream technology
> >> for whatever reason. And those responses have given me something to
> >> think about, but I don't yet know what I'll do about it. I said what I
> >> wanted to say on the Fedora accessibility article, and maybe I shouldn't
> >> have even let myself get pulled into that thread. But I think I'm now
> >> philosophically far enough away from many, or even most, in this
> >> community that I will probably retreat again from this list and other
> >> related lists.
> >>
> >> Matt
> >>
> >> _______________________________________________
> >> Blinux-list mailing list
> >> Blinux-list at redhat.com
> >> https://listman.redhat.com/mailman/listinfo/blinux-list
> >>
> >>
> > _______________________________________________
> > Blinux-list mailing list
> > Blinux-list at redhat.com
> > https://listman.redhat.com/mailman/listinfo/blinux-list
> >
>
> _______________________________________________
> Blinux-list mailing list
> Blinux-list at redhat.com
> https://listman.redhat.com/mailman/listinfo/blinux-list
>
>
^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 78+ messages in thread
* "Accessibility in Fedora Workstation" (fwd)
` blinux-list
@ ` blinux-list
` blinux-list
0 siblings, 1 reply; 78+ messages in thread
From: blinux-list @ UTC (permalink / raw)
Hi all.
I've been using linux at work and at home for at least 12 years.
I certainly encounter accessibility problems as I also encountered when
I was a windows user.
In my opinion, accessibility in linux has improved a lot, even because
there seems to be a greater interest in the community in using linux.
By the way, this message was written and sent from a computer with
fedora workstation version 36 installed.
On 8/15/22 10:25, Linux for blind general discussion wrote:
> For me, I still love Linux enough to keep up with the accessibility stuff,
> and even try it every six months or so. However, the last time I tried it,
> Orca was so unstable that I managed to crash it by pressing Alt + Tab. Now,
> this was on an HP Pavilian laptop, but I don't see how any lack of hardware
> drivers would *only* effect accessibility. I tried Fedora, Ubuntu, and I
> think Mint. All performed the same. Well, Ubuntu lasted a bit longer but
> still, wow. Now, before I get another batch of complain-mail, I'm not
> saying Linux isn't usable for those who don't have demanding jobs with
> oodles of rolls to fill and hats to wear and people to work with. It's nice
> for home users and simple tasks, and even some development, in Emacs or
> Nano or VIM or whatever. But it's not ready for *me* yet, and the people
> who still develop NVDA addons, apps like Tweesecake and Bookworm, and
> remote desktop solutions, all show, to me at least, that Linux isn't ready
> for them yet either. I could be wrong. I admit it. But those are my
> opinions, backed up by *my* experiences.
> Devin Prater
> r.d.t.prater at gmail.com
>
>
>
>
> On Mon, Aug 15, 2022 at 8:12 AM Linux for blind general discussion <
> blinux-list at redhat.com> wrote:
>
>> (from Matt Campbell)
>>
>> Thanks all for the appreciation and memories. But I'm afraid that, at
>> the risk of getting philosophical, the person who created ZipSpeak and
>> trplayer no longer exists. I remember being him, and I still have his
>> name and email address, but I'm no longer him. I've changed so much over
>> the two decades since then. Nothing makes that clearer than Chris's and
>> Karen's concerns about my attitude toward Linux console users and, more
>> generally, people who don't follow the whims of mainstream technology
>> for whatever reason. And those responses have given me something to
>> think about, but I don't yet know what I'll do about it. I said what I
>> wanted to say on the Fedora accessibility article, and maybe I shouldn't
>> have even let myself get pulled into that thread. But I think I'm now
>> philosophically far enough away from many, or even most, in this
>> community that I will probably retreat again from this list and other
>> related lists.
>>
>> Matt
>>
>> _______________________________________________
>> Blinux-list mailing list
>> Blinux-list at redhat.com
>> https://listman.redhat.com/mailman/listinfo/blinux-list
>>
>>
> _______________________________________________
> Blinux-list mailing list
> Blinux-list at redhat.com
> https://listman.redhat.com/mailman/listinfo/blinux-list
>
^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 78+ messages in thread
* "Accessibility in Fedora Workstation" (fwd)
` blinux-list
` blinux-list
@ ` blinux-list
1 sibling, 0 replies; 78+ messages in thread
From: blinux-list @ UTC (permalink / raw)
Valiant8086 here. I'm 99 percent a Windows user, and I use command line
a fair bit honestly. Just as you mentioned, what ever tool seems most
efficient and friendly for the user is what they should be using.
Cheers:
Aaron Spears, AKA Valiant8086 General Partner at Valiant Galaxy Associates "we make (VERY GOOD AUDIOGAMES) for the blind comunity" http://valiantGalaxy.com
On 8/15/2022 11:01 AM, Linux for blind general discussion wrote:
> See I'm curious. I've been watching this thread and figured I'd leap
> in. My setup is I havve a WM going, Ratpoison in my case find terminal
> things easier to use, for example pipe-viewer for Youtube videos
> without fighting with the frankly, clunky and obtuse Youtube main site
> that's trying to force me to bee Google's slave.
>
>
> So I'm in this weird spot where I'm using, say, Firefox or web
> browsing, but say if I download a news article or something for, let's
> say, a blog post and I need to quickly grab text I find it quicker for
> me to fire up w3m in my terminal, select what I want and copy it that
> way, than use Firefox to do the same task.
>
>
> Or for email, I prefer the quickness and ease of use of Mutt, I can go
> in, delete a bunch of emails for example, without having to deal with
> Thunderbird/Evolution's laginess and Orca freezing up in a folder with
> thousands of messages for example.
>
>
> I'd argue that trying to force GUI usage isn't really the right
> approach, instead more of okay, here's a set of tools, some or CLI,
> some are GUI, use what works for you and your use cases. I can't use
> GUI tools when SSHing into a machine really, so personally, I'm in
> this hybrid sort of setup where I do have a window manager and access
> to graphical apps, but I prefer to use the terminal and CLI for
> several things that I find too clunky with a desktop. That and I don't
> have to deal withh things such as Orca getting stuck in a CLI app,
> that doesn't happen at all.
>
> So TL:DR Use what works for you no matter if it's CLI or GUI, use what
> suits you best IMO
>
>
> On 8/15/22 14:12, Linux for blind general discussion wrote:
>> (from Matt Campbell)
>>
>> Thanks all for the appreciation and memories. But I'm afraid that, at
>> the risk of getting philosophical, the person who created ZipSpeak
>> and trplayer no longer exists. I remember being him, and I still have
>> his name and email address, but I'm no longer him. I've changed so
>> much over the two decades since then. Nothing makes that clearer than
>> Chris's and Karen's concerns about my attitude toward Linux console
>> users and, more generally, people who don't follow the whims of
>> mainstream technology for whatever reason. And those responses have
>> given me something to think about, but I don't yet know what I'll do
>> about it. I said what I wanted to say on the Fedora accessibility
>> article, and maybe I shouldn't have even let myself get pulled into
>> that thread. But I think I'm now philosophically far enough away from
>> many, or even most, in this community that I will probably retreat
>> again from this list and other related lists.
>>
>> Matt
>>
>> _______________________________________________
>> Blinux-list mailing list
>> Blinux-list at redhat.com
>> https://listman.redhat.com/mailman/listinfo/blinux-list
>>
>
> _______________________________________________
> Blinux-list mailing list
> Blinux-list at redhat.com
> https://listman.redhat.com/mailman/listinfo/blinux-list
>
^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 78+ messages in thread
* "Accessibility in Fedora Workstation" (fwd)
` blinux-list
@ ` blinux-list
` blinux-list
1 sibling, 0 replies; 78+ messages in thread
From: blinux-list @ UTC (permalink / raw)
Well, maybe 2years ago some1 wrote me-and-suggested I can run "rdrview" to just
enjoy the plain-text of an article. For the most part you would want to run as
an external in L Y N X. There are certainly challenging sites where it won't
work or you get stuck in a loop. Ok, from looking over its man-page, stripping
off the portion of an url for filing bugs, you can probably grab from
https://github.com/eafer/rdrview/
For myself, after `so many years of a lack of printer friendly article views,
this is really a game changer. In some cases, you may need to run by disabling
a sandbox.
Chime
^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 78+ messages in thread
* "Accessibility in Fedora Workstation" (fwd)
` blinux-list
` blinux-list
@ ` blinux-list
` blinux-list
` blinux-list
1 sibling, 2 replies; 78+ messages in thread
From: blinux-list @ UTC (permalink / raw)
See I'm curious. I've been watching this thread and figured I'd leap in.
My setup is I havve a WM going, Ratpoison in my case find terminal
things easier to use, for example pipe-viewer for Youtube videos without
fighting with the frankly, clunky and obtuse Youtube main site that's
trying to force me to bee Google's slave.
So I'm in this weird spot where I'm using, say, Firefox or web browsing,
but say if I download a news article or something for, let's say, a blog
post and I need to quickly grab text I find it quicker for me to fire up
w3m in my terminal, select what I want and copy it that way, than use
Firefox to do the same task.
Or for email, I prefer the quickness and ease of use of Mutt, I can go
in, delete a bunch of emails for example, without having to deal with
Thunderbird/Evolution's laginess and Orca freezing up in a folder with
thousands of messages for example.
I'd argue that trying to force GUI usage isn't really the right
approach, instead more of okay, here's a set of tools, some or CLI, some
are GUI, use what works for you and your use cases. I can't use GUI
tools when SSHing into a machine really, so personally, I'm in this
hybrid sort of setup where I do have a window manager and access to
graphical apps, but I prefer to use the terminal and CLI for several
things that I find too clunky with a desktop. That and I don't have to
deal withh things such as Orca getting stuck in a CLI app, that doesn't
happen at all.
So TL:DR Use what works for you no matter if it's CLI or GUI, use what
suits you best IMO
On 8/15/22 14:12, Linux for blind general discussion wrote:
> (from Matt Campbell)
>
> Thanks all for the appreciation and memories. But I'm afraid that, at
> the risk of getting philosophical, the person who created ZipSpeak and
> trplayer no longer exists. I remember being him, and I still have his
> name and email address, but I'm no longer him. I've changed so much
> over the two decades since then. Nothing makes that clearer than
> Chris's and Karen's concerns about my attitude toward Linux console
> users and, more generally, people who don't follow the whims of
> mainstream technology for whatever reason. And those responses have
> given me something to think about, but I don't yet know what I'll do
> about it. I said what I wanted to say on the Fedora accessibility
> article, and maybe I shouldn't have even let myself get pulled into
> that thread. But I think I'm now philosophically far enough away from
> many, or even most, in this community that I will probably retreat
> again from this list and other related lists.
>
> Matt
>
> _______________________________________________
> Blinux-list mailing list
> Blinux-list at redhat.com
> https://listman.redhat.com/mailman/listinfo/blinux-list
>
^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 78+ messages in thread
* "Accessibility in Fedora Workstation" (fwd)
` blinux-list
@ ` blinux-list
` blinux-list
` blinux-list
1 sibling, 1 reply; 78+ messages in thread
From: blinux-list @ UTC (permalink / raw)
For me, I still love Linux enough to keep up with the accessibility stuff,
and even try it every six months or so. However, the last time I tried it,
Orca was so unstable that I managed to crash it by pressing Alt + Tab. Now,
this was on an HP Pavilian laptop, but I don't see how any lack of hardware
drivers would *only* effect accessibility. I tried Fedora, Ubuntu, and I
think Mint. All performed the same. Well, Ubuntu lasted a bit longer but
still, wow. Now, before I get another batch of complain-mail, I'm not
saying Linux isn't usable for those who don't have demanding jobs with
oodles of rolls to fill and hats to wear and people to work with. It's nice
for home users and simple tasks, and even some development, in Emacs or
Nano or VIM or whatever. But it's not ready for *me* yet, and the people
who still develop NVDA addons, apps like Tweesecake and Bookworm, and
remote desktop solutions, all show, to me at least, that Linux isn't ready
for them yet either. I could be wrong. I admit it. But those are my
opinions, backed up by *my* experiences.
Devin Prater
r.d.t.prater at gmail.com
On Mon, Aug 15, 2022 at 8:12 AM Linux for blind general discussion <
blinux-list at redhat.com> wrote:
> (from Matt Campbell)
>
> Thanks all for the appreciation and memories. But I'm afraid that, at
> the risk of getting philosophical, the person who created ZipSpeak and
> trplayer no longer exists. I remember being him, and I still have his
> name and email address, but I'm no longer him. I've changed so much over
> the two decades since then. Nothing makes that clearer than Chris's and
> Karen's concerns about my attitude toward Linux console users and, more
> generally, people who don't follow the whims of mainstream technology
> for whatever reason. And those responses have given me something to
> think about, but I don't yet know what I'll do about it. I said what I
> wanted to say on the Fedora accessibility article, and maybe I shouldn't
> have even let myself get pulled into that thread. But I think I'm now
> philosophically far enough away from many, or even most, in this
> community that I will probably retreat again from this list and other
> related lists.
>
> Matt
>
> _______________________________________________
> Blinux-list mailing list
> Blinux-list at redhat.com
> https://listman.redhat.com/mailman/listinfo/blinux-list
>
>
^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 78+ messages in thread
* "Accessibility in Fedora Workstation" (fwd)
` blinux-list
` blinux-list
@ ` blinux-list
` blinux-list
` blinux-list
1 sibling, 2 replies; 78+ messages in thread
From: blinux-list @ UTC (permalink / raw)
(from Matt Campbell)
Thanks all for the appreciation and memories. But I'm afraid that, at
the risk of getting philosophical, the person who created ZipSpeak and
trplayer no longer exists. I remember being him, and I still have his
name and email address, but I'm no longer him. I've changed so much over
the two decades since then. Nothing makes that clearer than Chris's and
Karen's concerns about my attitude toward Linux console users and, more
generally, people who don't follow the whims of mainstream technology
for whatever reason. And those responses have given me something to
think about, but I don't yet know what I'll do about it. I said what I
wanted to say on the Fedora accessibility article, and maybe I shouldn't
have even let myself get pulled into that thread. But I think I'm now
philosophically far enough away from many, or even most, in this
community that I will probably retreat again from this list and other
related lists.
Matt
^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 78+ messages in thread
* "Accessibility in Fedora Workstation" (fwd)
` blinux-list
@ ` blinux-list
0 siblings, 0 replies; 78+ messages in thread
From: blinux-list @ UTC (permalink / raw)
Yes. I seem to remember having to install an rpm package for RealPlayer.
I think that's what ultimately moved me to Red Hat, so I could get
trplayer working with the RealPlayer rpm.
~Kyle
^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 78+ messages in thread
* "Accessibility in Fedora Workstation" (fwd)
` blinux-list
@ ` blinux-list
` blinux-list
` blinux-list
1 sibling, 1 reply; 78+ messages in thread
From: blinux-list @ UTC (permalink / raw)
Well, Kyle, I think tr player had a record function, but I don't remember much
other than we had to keep running real player 8 for its libraries.
Chime
^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 78+ messages in thread
* "Accessibility in Fedora Workstation" (fwd)
` blinux-list
` blinux-list
@ ` blinux-list
` blinux-list
` blinux-list
1 sibling, 2 replies; 78+ messages in thread
From: blinux-list @ UTC (permalink / raw)
Folks might also remember Matt for trplayer, which was a Linux console
> player for RealAudio streams.
Wow it has been a long time indeed, but I actually do remember trplayer.
I didn't use zipslack or zipspeak, but I did start with Slackware
running the speakup.i kernel. I very quickly switched to Red Hat 9
because it had more available packages,, but I did have to use the
telnet install at that time with a second computer that had Speakup
already installed, because there was no precompiled speakup kernel at
that time, but I braved kernel compilation to get Red Hat working and
speaking, especially after I figured out just how easy it was to build
rpm packages at that time. Actually, it's still fairly easy to build rpm
packages these days, even though the system is a bit more complex than
it once was. Fortunately we have really good package management now that
we didn't have back in those days. Still, even with the evolution of
Linux over the years, it is still by far the easiest to use, especially
since I'm a bit too old now to learn the latest Microsoft crap that I
abandoned so many years ago.
~Kyle
^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 78+ messages in thread
* "Accessibility in Fedora Workstation" (fwd)
` blinux-list
` blinux-list
@ ` blinux-list
1 sibling, 0 replies; 78+ messages in thread
From: blinux-list @ UTC (permalink / raw)
Actually, that will be true only when sighted people don't use paper
print.? I'm very glad I have Braille devices I can use to read a great
deal of material that hasn't been put into hardcopy, but it is often
much better for me to read those fine Braille volumes.? Plus, their
batteries don't die.? Yes, Braille paper ages and dies, too, but not
usually in the way electronic Braille devices can do it.
Al
On 8/14/22 19:26, Linux for blind general discussion wrote:
> I mean, we don't have to have volumes of Braille anymore, just a Braille
> Display, which work great with BRLTTY.
> Devin Prater
> r.d.t.prater at gmail.com
>
>
>
>
> On Sun, Aug 14, 2022 at 6:21 PM Linux for blind general discussion <
> blinux-list at redhat.com> wrote:
>
>> I echo this attitude concern, but for a different reason.
>> who gets to decide what bodies deserve a place at the table?
>> because of a vascular accident in an eye surgery, I experience a brain
>> anomaly where certain frequencies stimulate the dizzy centres of my brain.
>> allot of those frequencies happen in poorly designed software speech
>> configurations for Linux.
>> Meaning, because little effort has been made to give choices for Linux
>> speech in the gui, if I wanted to use this, I would have to choose between
>> a Linux computer and hospitalization.
>> compare this with apple hardware.
>> I recently aquired a mid 2012 macbook pro which, because of how the
>> voiceover sound is produced is perfectly safe for my use..and I can
>> still run only one Mac os off from the last pre m.1 systems.
>> i have an associate in my office running their business on a 2011 macbook
>> pro.
>> Indeed climate change, landfill issues, available resources in terms of
>> training and access all over the world.
>> And, for many how their body works mandates choices.
>> There was a time when one of the great things about Linux was that it
>> could be used to breathe new life into older hardware. especially
>> helpful in non-western countries where getting the fastest car on the
>> road was costly.
>> If your attitude was the rule though, those folks regardless of abilities
>> might never get computers at all.
>> take your attitude and say substitute braille.
>> Statistically less than 10% of the blindness community are braille
>> users,
>> meaning the majority do not use it, or even learn it if newly blinded.
>> so, its unfortunate some blind people are still stuck needing volumes and
>> volumes of braille, but to expect the world to confirm to such a limited
>> use language etc.
>> Speaking personally, especially given how flexible Linux is supposed to
>> be?
>> deciding some have no place at your gui table is little different than
>> deciding those who are visible minorities, no matter the location, have no
>> place at the table either.
>> Karen
>>
>>
>>
>> On Sun, 14 Aug 2022, Chris Brannon wrote:
>>
>>> Matt Campbell <mattcampbell at pobox.com> writes:
>>>
>>>> I took this position in 2000, but for the last decade or more, access
>> to a
>>>> GUI has been widely available to blind people at no extra cost. (If
>> there
>>>> are blind people today who are truly stuck on old hardware with no
>>>> accessible GUI, that's unfortunate, but I think this is one case where
>> the
>>>> best solution is charity, not expecting the rest of the world to
>> accommodate
>>>> this situation forever. That's no different than for sighted people
>> stuck on
>>>> very old hardware.)
>>> I'm sorry, but this is a very irresponsible attitude, given the impact
>>> of climate change. And now on top of that, the world is coping with
>>> supply chain issues. "Chuck it in a landfill because it won't run the
>>> latest Electron app" is deeply unacceptable.
>>>
>>> I do agree with you about the importance of GUI accessibility, even
>>> though I only use one when circumstances force me to it. I'm somewhat
>>> optimistic about the recent news.
>>>
>>> -- Chris
>>>
>>>
>> _______________________________________________
>> Blinux-list mailing list
>> Blinux-list at redhat.com
>> https://listman.redhat.com/mailman/listinfo/blinux-list
>>
>>
> _______________________________________________
> Blinux-list mailing list
> Blinux-list at redhat.com
> https://listman.redhat.com/mailman/listinfo/blinux-list
>
^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 78+ messages in thread
* "Accessibility in Fedora Workstation" (fwd)
` blinux-list
@ ` blinux-list
` blinux-list
1 sibling, 0 replies; 78+ messages in thread
From: blinux-list @ UTC (permalink / raw)
....and the average cost of a braille display?
and if the material cannot be accessed in Linux?
I could do this all day long.
its wonderful you have that solution for you...but everyone deserves their
solution as well, especially if they are in the majority.
The red lobster where I live provides braille menus.
Almost always when I visit, the server brings me one.
Without fail, i tell that server how glad I am they provide this menu for
the comparatively few who need it, because they deserve the experience of
ordering as they personally define independence.
It is unfortunate though, that for some, my not being blind as they define
it, means I cannot be expected to define independence as my body
requires.
On Sun, 14 Aug 2022, Linux for blind general discussion wrote:
> I mean, we don't have to have volumes of Braille anymore, just a Braille
> Display, which work great with BRLTTY.
> Devin Prater
> r.d.t.prater at gmail.com
>
>
>
>
> On Sun, Aug 14, 2022 at 6:21 PM Linux for blind general discussion <
> blinux-list at redhat.com> wrote:
>
>> I echo this attitude concern, but for a different reason.
>> who gets to decide what bodies deserve a place at the table?
>> because of a vascular accident in an eye surgery, I experience a brain
>> anomaly where certain frequencies stimulate the dizzy centres of my brain.
>> allot of those frequencies happen in poorly designed software speech
>> configurations for Linux.
>> Meaning, because little effort has been made to give choices for Linux
>> speech in the gui, if I wanted to use this, I would have to choose between
>> a Linux computer and hospitalization.
>> compare this with apple hardware.
>> I recently aquired a mid 2012 macbook pro which, because of how the
>> voiceover sound is produced is perfectly safe for my use..and I can
>> still run only one Mac os off from the last pre m.1 systems.
>> i have an associate in my office running their business on a 2011 macbook
>> pro.
>> Indeed climate change, landfill issues, available resources in terms of
>> training and access all over the world.
>> And, for many how their body works mandates choices.
>> There was a time when one of the great things about Linux was that it
>> could be used to breathe new life into older hardware. especially
>> helpful in non-western countries where getting the fastest car on the
>> road was costly.
>> If your attitude was the rule though, those folks regardless of abilities
>> might never get computers at all.
>> take your attitude and say substitute braille.
>> Statistically less than 10% of the blindness community are braille
>> users,
>> meaning the majority do not use it, or even learn it if newly blinded.
>> so, its unfortunate some blind people are still stuck needing volumes and
>> volumes of braille, but to expect the world to confirm to such a limited
>> use language etc.
>> Speaking personally, especially given how flexible Linux is supposed to
>> be?
>> deciding some have no place at your gui table is little different than
>> deciding those who are visible minorities, no matter the location, have no
>> place at the table either.
>> Karen
>>
>>
>>
>> On Sun, 14 Aug 2022, Chris Brannon wrote:
>>
>>> Matt Campbell <mattcampbell at pobox.com> writes:
>>>
>>>> I took this position in 2000, but for the last decade or more, access
>> to a
>>>> GUI has been widely available to blind people at no extra cost. (If
>> there
>>>> are blind people today who are truly stuck on old hardware with no
>>>> accessible GUI, that's unfortunate, but I think this is one case where
>> the
>>>> best solution is charity, not expecting the rest of the world to
>> accommodate
>>>> this situation forever. That's no different than for sighted people
>> stuck on
>>>> very old hardware.)
>>>
>>> I'm sorry, but this is a very irresponsible attitude, given the impact
>>> of climate change. And now on top of that, the world is coping with
>>> supply chain issues. "Chuck it in a landfill because it won't run the
>>> latest Electron app" is deeply unacceptable.
>>>
>>> I do agree with you about the importance of GUI accessibility, even
>>> though I only use one when circumstances force me to it. I'm somewhat
>>> optimistic about the recent news.
>>>
>>> -- Chris
>>>
>>>
>>
>> _______________________________________________
>> Blinux-list mailing list
>> Blinux-list at redhat.com
>> https://listman.redhat.com/mailman/listinfo/blinux-list
>>
>>
> _______________________________________________
> Blinux-list mailing list
> Blinux-list at redhat.com
> https://listman.redhat.com/mailman/listinfo/blinux-list
>
>
^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 78+ messages in thread
* "Accessibility in Fedora Workstation" (fwd)
` blinux-list
@ ` blinux-list
` blinux-list
` blinux-list
0 siblings, 2 replies; 78+ messages in thread
From: blinux-list @ UTC (permalink / raw)
I mean, we don't have to have volumes of Braille anymore, just a Braille
Display, which work great with BRLTTY.
Devin Prater
r.d.t.prater at gmail.com
On Sun, Aug 14, 2022 at 6:21 PM Linux for blind general discussion <
blinux-list at redhat.com> wrote:
> I echo this attitude concern, but for a different reason.
> who gets to decide what bodies deserve a place at the table?
> because of a vascular accident in an eye surgery, I experience a brain
> anomaly where certain frequencies stimulate the dizzy centres of my brain.
> allot of those frequencies happen in poorly designed software speech
> configurations for Linux.
> Meaning, because little effort has been made to give choices for Linux
> speech in the gui, if I wanted to use this, I would have to choose between
> a Linux computer and hospitalization.
> compare this with apple hardware.
> I recently aquired a mid 2012 macbook pro which, because of how the
> voiceover sound is produced is perfectly safe for my use..and I can
> still run only one Mac os off from the last pre m.1 systems.
> i have an associate in my office running their business on a 2011 macbook
> pro.
> Indeed climate change, landfill issues, available resources in terms of
> training and access all over the world.
> And, for many how their body works mandates choices.
> There was a time when one of the great things about Linux was that it
> could be used to breathe new life into older hardware. especially
> helpful in non-western countries where getting the fastest car on the
> road was costly.
> If your attitude was the rule though, those folks regardless of abilities
> might never get computers at all.
> take your attitude and say substitute braille.
> Statistically less than 10% of the blindness community are braille
> users,
> meaning the majority do not use it, or even learn it if newly blinded.
> so, its unfortunate some blind people are still stuck needing volumes and
> volumes of braille, but to expect the world to confirm to such a limited
> use language etc.
> Speaking personally, especially given how flexible Linux is supposed to
> be?
> deciding some have no place at your gui table is little different than
> deciding those who are visible minorities, no matter the location, have no
> place at the table either.
> Karen
>
>
>
> On Sun, 14 Aug 2022, Chris Brannon wrote:
>
> > Matt Campbell <mattcampbell at pobox.com> writes:
> >
> >> I took this position in 2000, but for the last decade or more, access
> to a
> >> GUI has been widely available to blind people at no extra cost. (If
> there
> >> are blind people today who are truly stuck on old hardware with no
> >> accessible GUI, that's unfortunate, but I think this is one case where
> the
> >> best solution is charity, not expecting the rest of the world to
> accommodate
> >> this situation forever. That's no different than for sighted people
> stuck on
> >> very old hardware.)
> >
> > I'm sorry, but this is a very irresponsible attitude, given the impact
> > of climate change. And now on top of that, the world is coping with
> > supply chain issues. "Chuck it in a landfill because it won't run the
> > latest Electron app" is deeply unacceptable.
> >
> > I do agree with you about the importance of GUI accessibility, even
> > though I only use one when circumstances force me to it. I'm somewhat
> > optimistic about the recent news.
> >
> > -- Chris
> >
> >
>
> _______________________________________________
> Blinux-list mailing list
> Blinux-list at redhat.com
> https://listman.redhat.com/mailman/listinfo/blinux-list
>
>
^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 78+ messages in thread
* "Accessibility in Fedora Workstation" (fwd)
[not found] ` <87k07ak5a8.fsf@the-brannons.com>
@ ` blinux-list
` blinux-list
[not found] ` <Pine.LNX.4.64.2208141900180.1291685@server2.shellworld.net>
1 sibling, 1 reply; 78+ messages in thread
From: blinux-list @ UTC (permalink / raw)
I echo this attitude concern, but for a different reason.
who gets to decide what bodies deserve a place at the table?
because of a vascular accident in an eye surgery, I experience a brain
anomaly where certain frequencies stimulate the dizzy centres of my brain.
allot of those frequencies happen in poorly designed software speech
configurations for Linux.
Meaning, because little effort has been made to give choices for Linux
speech in the gui, if I wanted to use this, I would have to choose between
a Linux computer and hospitalization.
compare this with apple hardware.
I recently aquired a mid 2012 macbook pro which, because of how the
voiceover sound is produced is perfectly safe for my use..and I can
still run only one Mac os off from the last pre m.1 systems.
i have an associate in my office running their business on a 2011 macbook
pro.
Indeed climate change, landfill issues, available resources in terms of
training and access all over the world.
And, for many how their body works mandates choices.
There was a time when one of the great things about Linux was that it
could be used to breathe new life into older hardware. especially
helpful in non-western countries where getting the fastest car on the
road was costly.
If your attitude was the rule though, those folks regardless of abilities
might never get computers at all.
take your attitude and say substitute braille.
Statistically less than 10% of the blindness community are braille users,
meaning the majority do not use it, or even learn it if newly blinded.
so, its unfortunate some blind people are still stuck needing volumes and
volumes of braille, but to expect the world to confirm to such a limited
use language etc.
Speaking personally, especially given how flexible Linux is supposed to
be?
deciding some have no place at your gui table is little different than
deciding those who are visible minorities, no matter the location, have no
place at the table either.
Karen
On Sun, 14 Aug 2022, Chris Brannon wrote:
> Matt Campbell <mattcampbell at pobox.com> writes:
>
>> I took this position in 2000, but for the last decade or more, access to a
>> GUI has been widely available to blind people at no extra cost. (If there
>> are blind people today who are truly stuck on old hardware with no
>> accessible GUI, that's unfortunate, but I think this is one case where the
>> best solution is charity, not expecting the rest of the world to accommodate
>> this situation forever. That's no different than for sighted people stuck on
>> very old hardware.)
>
> I'm sorry, but this is a very irresponsible attitude, given the impact
> of climate change. And now on top of that, the world is coping with
> supply chain issues. "Chuck it in a landfill because it won't run the
> latest Electron app" is deeply unacceptable.
>
> I do agree with you about the importance of GUI accessibility, even
> though I only use one when circumstances force me to it. I'm somewhat
> optimistic about the recent news.
>
> -- Chris
>
>
^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 78+ messages in thread
* "Accessibility in Fedora Workstation" (fwd)
` blinux-list
@ ` blinux-list
` blinux-list
1 sibling, 0 replies; 78+ messages in thread
From: blinux-list @ UTC (permalink / raw)
Wow, yes tr player was really nice with an elapsed time-and-other features. As
far as zipslack, I installed it in a win98 machine, but when I alt+tab it would
say "apache, but no speech in that tab. I had no idea what to do so I got rid
of it.
Chime
^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 78+ messages in thread
* "Accessibility in Fedora Workstation" (fwd)
` blinux-list
` blinux-list
` blinux-list
@ ` blinux-list
` blinux-list
` blinux-list
2 siblings, 2 replies; 78+ messages in thread
From: blinux-list @ UTC (permalink / raw)
Linux for blind general discussion <blinux-list at redhat.com> writes:
> Am I way off base here, or are you one of the guys behind the browser
> plugin or whatever it was that allowed me to pay my bills through my
> bank on Linux for the first time way back more than 15 years ago
As far as I know, Matt was also responsible for zipspeak, which is what
I used to bootstrap myself into Linux way back in 2000. Back then,
there was a version of Slackware called Zipslack, which could run under
MS-DOS. Essentially you could run Linux and DOS/Windows side by side.
Zipspeak was a respin of Zipslack that included Speakup. I spent a
month or so with it before ordering a set of Slackware disks and doing a
full Linux install. I don't think I ever had a chance to say thank you,
so now I'm doing that publicly.
Folks might also remember Matt for trplayer, which was a Linux console
player for RealAudio streams.
-- Chris
^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 78+ messages in thread
* "Accessibility in Fedora Workstation" (fwd)
[not found] ` <8d72d3ff-01d5-9f5e-c2b1-fb10a024e047@pobox.com>
@ ` blinux-list
[not found] ` <87k07ak5a8.fsf@the-brannons.com>
1 sibling, 0 replies; 78+ messages in thread
From: blinux-list @ UTC (permalink / raw)
Matt Campbell <mattcampbell at pobox.com> writes:
> I took this position in 2000, but for the last decade or more, access to a
> GUI has been widely available to blind people at no extra cost. (If there
> are blind people today who are truly stuck on old hardware with no
> accessible GUI, that's unfortunate, but I think this is one case where the
> best solution is charity, not expecting the rest of the world to accommodate
> this situation forever. That's no different than for sighted people stuck on
> very old hardware.)
I'm sorry, but this is a very irresponsible attitude, given the impact
of climate change. And now on top of that, the world is coping with
supply chain issues. "Chuck it in a landfill because it won't run the
latest Electron app" is deeply unacceptable.
I do agree with you about the importance of GUI accessibility, even
though I only use one when circumstances force me to it. I'm somewhat
optimistic about the recent news.
-- Chris
^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 78+ messages in thread
* "Accessibility in Fedora Workstation" (fwd)
` blinux-list
@ ` blinux-list
0 siblings, 0 replies; 78+ messages in thread
From: blinux-list @ UTC (permalink / raw)
No, it seems you are the person I have to thank. It was indeed the Linux
version of the FreedomBox browser I used at that time, and it was a game
changer. I started with Linux in early 2003, finding it to be overall
far superior to anything I had used before it, mostly Microsoft's Dos,
Windows 3.1, 98, ME and XP. But I had to keep my less than legal XP and
my illegally authorized Jaws at that time because of issues I had
working with banking and other online payment systems and other sites
that had already lost, or possibly never had, the ability to work well
in text-mode browsers. Yes, that self-voicing browser, I seem to recall
it speaking using DECTalk speech, was indeed a game changer, and I see
that my gratitude is not misplaced after all. Back at that time, I was
doing everything in text mode and had to startx to get to a graphical
session that could run the browser, but fortunately, by the time the
Linux version of the FreedomBox browser stopped working, I was able to
use Firefox with the screen reader called Gnopernicus, so I never again
had to find an illegal copy of XP or Jaws so that I could pay my bills
and shop and other things that required a fully graphical browser. So
yes, thank you and Serotek for getting me over the last hurdle to using
Linux full-time, and thanks also to Sun Microsystems, Igalia and many
others for all the work that has gone into overall accessibility of
graphical desktop environments and Linux applications since then.~Kyle
^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 78+ messages in thread
* "Accessibility in Fedora Workstation" (fwd)
` blinux-list
@ ` blinux-list
0 siblings, 0 replies; 78+ messages in thread
From: blinux-list @ UTC (permalink / raw)
Nah, I never managed an FTP site, though a couple of my projects back in
the day were hosted on the Speakup FTP site managed by Kirk Reiser.
Matt
^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 78+ messages in thread
* "Accessibility in Fedora Workstation" (fwd)
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2 siblings, 1 reply; 78+ messages in thread
From: blinux-list @ UTC (permalink / raw)
Kyle, unless you happened to use the Linux version of the Mozilla-based
FreedomBox 2.x self-voicing web browser from Serotek, for the couple of
years that it was available for that platform (starting in 2004), then I
believe you have someone else to thank. That was such a long time ago.
If you did in fact use that product, I'm glad it helped.
Matt
^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 78+ messages in thread
* "Accessibility in Fedora Workstation" (fwd)
` blinux-list
@ ` blinux-list
` blinux-list
` blinux-list
` blinux-list
2 siblings, 1 reply; 78+ messages in thread
From: blinux-list @ UTC (permalink / raw)
I think Matt managed an ftp site with several Linux images, long before I knew
of this forum.
Chime
^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 78+ messages in thread
* "Accessibility in Fedora Workstation" (fwd)
` blinux-list
@ ` blinux-list
` blinux-list
` (2 more replies)
0 siblings, 3 replies; 78+ messages in thread
From: blinux-list @ UTC (permalink / raw)
Hey Matt,
Am I way off base here, or are you one of the guys behind the browser
plugin or whatever it was that allowed me to pay my bills through my
bank on Linux for the first time way back more than 15 years ago, when
banks and their online billpay services were still fairly new, but had
already moved away from the ability to use them with text-mode browsers?
If so, you are the one I need to thank for actually getting me off the
Microsoft train completely. I always wanted off, but until your browser
plugin came along, 2005 I think it was, browser functionality with my
online banking was the only thing keeping my illegally obtained XP
partition on my hard drive. So I have you and others like you to thank
for allowing me to finally wipe it.
I just wanted to say that your response and your attention to detail
when it comes to this article, as well as your research on the topic and
even Red Hat and Lukas himself is very well done and well written.
Regarding accessibility in general, you are saying things that I have
been saying for a long time, since as much as I loved the text console
and my ability to use it more productively overall than Microsoft's
graphical environment, it didn't take me long to see the growing holes
in the technologies available in text mode that made me have to reboot
at that time into a system I was trying very hard to leave behind, and
your browser plugin for Firefox followed by the subsequent development
of GNOME 2.x, was what got me over that final hurdle. So I just wanted
to thank you for your work and for your well-thought-out responses and
research. And if you're not the one behind the browser plugin I used at
that time, pass my gratitude on to whoever was responsible for it. That
was certainly the turning point. *claps loudly*
And before I forget, yes, I am a Fedora user these days, although I'm
primarily on Fedora-MATE-Compiz rather than Workstation. Still, the fact
that a concerted effort is being made to fix what's broken or has fallen
into disrepair is extremely good news to me, as I do still keep up with
GNOME developments despite my strong MATE preference, and it does seem
that MATE itself can probably benefit from much of this work also, since
it uses GTK under the hood. I look forward to KDE developments in this
area as well.
~Kyle
^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 78+ messages in thread
* "Accessibility in Fedora Workstation" (fwd)
[not found] ` <Pine.LNX.4.64.2208132205110.1261053@server2.shellworld.net>
@ ` blinux-list
` blinux-list
[not found] ` <8d72d3ff-01d5-9f5e-c2b1-fb10a024e047@pobox.com>
1 sibling, 1 reply; 78+ messages in thread
From: blinux-list @ UTC (permalink / raw)
I'm going to address points from several of Karen's messages:.
> he is, according to those writing the article bringing accessibility
> to Fedora workstation.
> i respect that for those in the know, in the choir so to speak what he
> is doing is clean up.
> but that is not how the general Linux community is taking this
> information.
Let's look at what the article actually says, particularly the intro
before the interview:
The first concerted effort to support accessibility under Linux was
undertaken by Sun Microsystems when they decided to use GNOME for
Solaris. Sun put together a team focused on building the pieces to
make GNOME 2 fully accessible and worked with hardware makers to
make sure things like Braille devices worked well. I even heard
claims that GNOME and Linux had the best accessibility of any
operating system for a while due to this effort. As Sun started
struggling and got acquired by Oracle this accessibility effort
eventually trailed off with the community trying to pick up the
slack afterwards. Especially engineers from Igalia were quite active
for a while trying to keep the accessibility support working well.
But over the years we definitely lost a bit of focus on this and we
know that various parts of GNOME 3 for instance aren?t great in
terms of accessibility. So at Red Hat we have had a lot of focus
over the last few years trying to ensure we are mindful about
diversity and inclusion when hiring, trying to ensure that we don?t
accidentally pre-select against underrepresented groups based on for
instance gender or ethnicity. But one area we realized we hadn?t
given so much focus recently was around technologies that allowed
people with various disabilities to make use of our software. Thus I
am very happy to announce that Red Hat has just hired Lukas
Tyrychtr, who is a blind software engineer, to lead our effort in
making sure Red Hat Enterprise Linux and Fedora Workstation has
excellent accessibility support!
That's somewhat long-winded, but it's clear to any careful reader that
the foundation for accessibility was already laid, and that what most
urgently needs to be done is to fix what has been broken in the years
since Sun's accessibility team was disbanded. If things get
misrepresented by others who have shared the article, that's surely not
the fault of the authors. That happens all the time when people share
things online; it's nothing new, and not worth belaboring.
> there are people using Linux in the console daily who deserve equal
> access.
I took this position in 2000, but for the last decade or more, access to
a GUI has been widely available to blind people at no extra cost. (If
there are blind people today who are truly stuck on old hardware with no
accessible GUI, that's unfortunate, but I think this is one case where
the best solution is charity, not expecting the rest of the world to
accommodate this situation forever. That's no different than for sighted
people stuck on very old hardware.) Blindness itself is a circumstance
beyond one's control that deserves reasonable accommodation. But today,
using the text console is a choice, a very conscious choice to swim
upstream, against the current. Anyone who makes that choice should be
prepared for difficulty. And in fact, the few people I know who choose
to use the console today are prepared to use a GUI of one form or
another when there's no other way to accomplish a task. A platform
company like Red Hat is under no obligation to cater to the preference
of the dwindling minority of a minority who choose to use the text
console. To be clear, I have nothing against people who find
console-based tools most productive; do whatever works for you. But we
need to be careful about what we demand from the mainstream world, and I
think that expecting to be able to do everything using only the console
is too much.
> Second, this individual's job is to make this platform
> accessible...which has never meant blindness exclusively.
His job, according to the article, is, "to lead our effort in making
sure Red Hat Enterprise Linux and Fedora Workstation has excellent
accessibility support." To me, the word "lead" suggests that he's not
doing this alone. Also, as I said above, the foundation of accessibility
for all disabilities was already laid, by the team at Sun, starting
roughly 20 years ago. They deliberately chose to start with a generic
accessibility API, not a specific solution for a particular disability,
because they understood that a well-designed accessibility API would
enable independent developers to provide assistive technologies for
multiple disabilities. And while I have my objections to a specific
layer of their accessibility architecture, I believe they were on the
mark here. Finally, I think it's safe to say that blindness is the most
difficult disability to accommodate for GUI application and toolkit
developers, as it requires them to provide a complete alternative
representation of their default, high-bandwidth mode of visual output.
Once that need has been met by implementing a sufficiently rich
accessibility API, independent developers can handle other disabilities
by implementing alternate input methods; indeed, the more comprehensive
the accessibility API implementation is, the more these other input
methods have to work with. So I think it's entirely reasonable for Red
Hat and Lukas to focus for now on making their GUI accessible to blind
people with a screen reader.
> Further this individual is no volunteer, he is being paid to have up
> to date information, not just about fedora, but for screen readers he
> did not even reference like Fenial <spelling>
> He is a single individual, That he has not seen a hardware
> synthesizer,? due to age does not mean they do not exist.
As I wrote elsewhere, what he is actually paid for is between him and
Red Hat. If they are paying him exclusively to focus on improving GUI
accessibility with Orca, I think that's entirely reasonable, as I
explained above. The fact that his statements on Speakup were slightly
incomplete, or that he didn't say anything about Fenrir, is annoying to
those in the know, but not worth getting outraged over. Also note that
Lukas's primary job is not advocacy or education, but software
development. Along the way, he will need to educate other developers
about accessibility, but he's not obligated to comprehensively educate
the world at large about how blind people use Linux. The details of how
blind people can access the text console are of little or no interest to
most platform and application developers, who are the people that Lukas
would actually need to educate as part of his job. What we really need
them to understand is how they can make their GUIs accessible, and the
easier we make that for them, the more accessibility we will get. In
light of that, dwelling too much on console options could even be
considered an unnecessary and confusing distraction.
> That attitude is dangerous, because he is educating those outside of
> the accessibility experiences, who will believe his ignorance is factual.
If people outside the blind community, including platform and
application developers, believe that speech synthesis hardware is
vanishingly rare, or that one can't use Speakup with Fedora (but can use
BRLTTY or Orca), that's of no practical consequence. We just need them
to know how they can make their GUIs and web applications accessible,
and to be convinced that it's worth doing. On other disabilities, he said:
Of course, utilities for other accessibility needs exist as well,
but I don?t know much about these.
It's good that he's honest about what he doesn't know. I don't believe
that current gap in knowledge should disqualify him from the job that
Red Hat actually hired him to do, as opposed to the job that you seem to
think Red Hat should have hired someone to do. He's going to have his
hands full just making Fedora Workstation fully accessible to blind
people. I trust that he'll be willing to learn about other assistive
technologies when that knowledge is actually necessary.
> may I ask from where he obtained his software engineering degree?
> Studied computer science?? Perhaps disability studies?
Neither Lukas nor Red Hat are obligated to provide this information to
random bystanders. But here's what I found in my quick research. Lukas
posted his university thesis on GitHub
<https://github.com/tyrylu/thesis>, and from that I deduced that he
earned his bachelor's degree (and perhaps a master's as well) in Applied
Informatics from Masaryk University in the Czech Republic.
> there are certainly scores of? disabled individuals with these various
> levels of qualification..even who are Linux users.
Sure. But the question is not whether the job went to the person who
seems most qualified to an outside observer, or is known in that
observer's community, but whether the job went to a person who was
available and interested in the job, is qualified enough (as judged by
the people doing the hiring), and will get the work done. Red Hat have
been hiring developers to work on open source for decades, and I trust
that they are competent to choose a qualified candidate. Beyond that, as
I stated in my first reply, we can see for ourselves what Lukas has
previously done online. There's even more of that than I realized when I
wrote that message. For example, he successfully submitted a few patches
to the GTK repository, before Red Hat hired him, and he has been
reporting bugs in GNOME accessibility, particularly on Red Hat's bug
tracker, for years. And as I said on Friday, his feel-the-streets
project demonstrates an aptitude for taking on real-world programming
projects. So I believe Red Hat's decision to hire him was sound. Not
that they need my approval, or that of anyone on these lists.
Now, I suggest that we let the nit-picking go and just be happy that,
with financial backing from the leading company in this space, GUI
accessibility on Linux is moving forward.
Matt
^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 78+ messages in thread
* "Accessibility in Fedora Workstation" (fwd)
[not found] ` <033301d8af87$4227f3f0$80ffa8c0@Win7VM>
@ ` blinux-list
[not found] ` <Pine.LNX.4.64.2208140031380.1264046@server2.shellworld.net>
1 sibling, 0 replies; 78+ messages in thread
From: blinux-list @ UTC (permalink / raw)
And where do these employers learn about jaws?
In fact, provide if you do not mind an example of how this works exactly.
after all, unless I am incorrect, these employers are not personal
Jaws users, meaning someone they trust continues to sell them on an
expensive program instead of a largely free one.
On Sat, 13 Aug 2022, K0LNY_Glenn wrote:
> Karen,
> Most employers don't want NVDA, and will only allow Jaws.
> In Nebraska, if an employer said put on whatever works, the counselors will
> use NVDA, because of the cost of Jaws.
> If some of the clients in a call center already use Jaws, but don't know
> NVDA, the counselor will use Jaws, because the other clients will need to
> learn one of the two.
> So it's all choice, but in the workplace, it depends on what the employer
> will allow.
> Also, sometimes scripts need to be made, and there are more Jaws scripters
> available than there are NVDA add-on writers.
> So this perception that Jaws is forced by rehab, from my 31 years in the
> business I can say is rubbish.
> Now, if a counselor did not know how to use NVDA, and either may be chosen,
> the rehab counselor is able to select the one that the counselor feels is
> best for the student and for the counselor's teaching.
> When it comes to part B moneys, which is used for non-vocational purchases,
> where a lot of Jaws purchases come from, it is in the agency's best interest
> to spend as little as possible, because that doesn't come back like VR
> expenditures do.
> Glenn
>
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: "Karen Lewellen" <klewellen at shellworld.net>
> To: "K0LNY_Glenn" <glenn at ervin.email>
> Cc: <speakup at linux-speakup.org>; "Milan Zamazal" <pdm at zamazal.org>;
> <Blinux-list at redhat.com>
> Sent: Saturday, August 13, 2022 6:15 PM
> Subject: Re: "Accessibility in Fedora Workstation" (fwd)
>
>
> The challenge with that example is that, as one often gets reminded, the
> rehab systems track record for facilitating employment for their clients
> is quite poor.
> With a high percentage of unemployment among our clients. Making,
> speaking personally, your buying Jaws for personal use not really
> reflecting how the system would respond to an alternative request.
> Now if someone from organized rehab said, okay freedom scientific, we are
> creating an employment program where our clients will train in Linux,
> needing a solid screen reader solution for the system. We will give you an
> exclusive development contract for s millions to create the tool.
> Fs would likely say where do we sign?
>
>
>
> On Sat, 13 Aug 2022, K0LNY_Glenn wrote:
>
>> True enough, but largely, rehab people typically use Windows at work, and
>> probably at home, but they need to cater to the needs of the client.
>> If a client used Linux, I doubt that any rehab counselor would advocate
>> that
>> the client switch to Windows, unless that was needed for a specific job.
>> In Nebraska, we purchased Jaws much more for personal use than we did for
>> work related situations.
>> So if FS made a JFL, and people were using Linux, rehab would indeed
>> purchase a JFL product.
>> Glenn
>> ----- Original Message -----
>> From: "Karen Lewellen" <klewellen at shellworld.net>
>> To: "K0LNY_Glenn" <glenn at ervin.email>
>> Cc: <speakup at linux-speakup.org>; "Milan Zamazal" <pdm at zamazal.org>;
>> <Blinux-list at redhat.com>
>> Sent: Saturday, August 13, 2022 3:01 PM
>> Subject: Re: "Accessibility in Fedora Workstation" (fwd)
>>
>>
>> there was an interesting discussion a month or so back on the blinux list
>> about how long it took completing tasks in the gui as apposed to say
>> command line, the comments were quite informative.
>> Still, fs has never marketed largely to the end user. Instead they market
>> to the American rehab community.
>> how much market research has the rehab community done to support the need
>> for choices?
>> How many rehab counselors support training in Linux?
>> one comment made by the subject of this thread about poor quality speech
>> is a fine one...out of the box Linux has few speech choices. everyone
>> brings their needs to the table there.
>>
>> if you want to get fs to care about Linux, you need to prove there is
>> money for them there, from their main source of income.
>>
>>
>>
>> On Sat, 13 Aug 2022, K0LNY_Glenn wrote:
>>
>>> Well since Orca seems to work on so many distros, I don't know why FS
>>> would
>>> not be able to do the same.
>>> If Jaws users could switch into Linux, it would be a real game changer,
>>> and
>>> I think with lots more Blind Linux users, we would start seeing
>>> accessibility in Linux not being a second thought.
>>> Glenn
>>> ----- Original Message -----
>>> From: "Karen Lewellen" <klewellen at shellworld.net>
>>> To: "K0LNY_Glenn" <glenn at ervin.email>
>>> Cc: <speakup at linux-speakup.org>; "Milan Zamazal" <pdm at zamazal.org>;
>>> <Blinux-list at redhat.com>
>>> Sent: Saturday, August 13, 2022 1:47 PM
>>> Subject: Re: "Accessibility in Fedora Workstation" (fwd)
>>>
>>>
>>> Well technically freedom scientific does not exist any longer, being
>>> bought
>>> by another company.
>>> Still, I can respect why they, or nvda have not created their tools for
>>> Linux.
>>> That is because as I understand it, Linux is quite like clay. You can
>>> mold a distribution into almost anything. there are various
>>> personifications of the system, all sorts of ways and changes and options
>>> for creativity.
>>> however adaptive tools are often extensions of physical characteristics,
>>> hands, eyes, ears, brains, combinations of these.
>>> To build solid assistive tools one must have a solid foundation as it
>>> were. that is part of why there have needed to be so few Apple efforts
>>> at
>>> inclusion, they created with, and then created in-house adaptive tools
>>> for various populations that were built into the system.
>>> Although Microsoft did not bother until much later, in theory at least,
>>> the
>>> consistency of windows is what makes it possible for freedom or the
>>> former
>>> gw micro or nvda to create something that can in theory work.
>>> Floor for the furniture is somewhat solid.
>>> Just my thoughts,
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> On Sat, 13 Aug 2022, K0LNY_Glenn wrote:
>>>
>>>> I would like to see Freedom Scientific make a Jaws For Linux.
>>>> JFL
>>>> I'd certainly pay the yearly rental fee for it, and it would bring many
>>>> more
>>>> users into Linux.
>>>> FS could, with its resources, possibly make it more robust than Orca.
>>>>
>>>> Glenn
>>>> ----- Original Message -----
>>>> From: "Milan Zamazal" <pdm at zamazal.org>
>>>> To: <speakup at linux-speakup.org>
>>>> Cc: <Blinux-list at redhat.com>
>>>> Sent: Saturday, August 13, 2022 12:08 PM
>>>> Subject: Re: "Accessibility in Fedora Workstation" (fwd)
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>>>>>> "KL" == Karen Lewellen <klewellen at shellworld.net> writes:
>>>>
>>>> KL> What bothers me most are his lack of actual qualifications, and
>>>> KL> absolute dismissal of what he has not experienced..as if he
>>>> KL> defines Linux usage for everyone. That attitude is dangerous,
>>>> KL> because he is educating those outside of the accessibility
>>>> KL> experiences, who will believe his ignorance is factual. he has
>>>> KL> to be expert, it is his job.
>>>>
>>>> Hi Karen,
>>>>
>>>> I know Lukas personally and I admire his skills and qualifications. I
>>>> also know first hand that he is open to constructive feedback and I
>>>> believe he?d be happy to be corrected about possible technical
>>>> inaccuracies in the interview. It may be also a good opportunity to
>>>> find out what?s possibly missing in making anybody better informed.
>>>>
>>>> As for ?absolute dismissal of what he has not experienced?, what
>>>> reasonable free software alternatives to a less or more standard desktop
>>>> with Orca and a software synthesizer can you see for a common blind user
>>>> who needs to use a fully working web browser, to read and process text
>>>> documents, to be compatible with other computer users, etc.?
>>>>
>>>> And let?s be realistic. We celebrate every single developer hired to
>>>> improve accessibility. This tells something about the state of the
>>>> matters. We cannot expect that a single person will fix all the kinds
>>>> of accessibility problems in all the environments. Lukas works at his
>>>> job focusing on certain areas currently seen there as urgent ones and I
>>>> appreciate this opportunity. Anybody else seeing a need to work on
>>>> other areas is welcome to contribute to whatever sees fit, as I do.
>>>>
>>>> Regards,
>>>> Milan
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>
>>>
>>
>>
>
>
^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 78+ messages in thread
* "Accessibility in Fedora Workstation" (fwd)
[not found] ` <YvhV4TWzuP2O1JAZ@novena-choice-citizen>
@ ` blinux-list
[not found] ` <Pine.LNX.4.64.2208132205110.1261053@server2.shellworld.net>
1 sibling, 0 replies; 78+ messages in thread
From: blinux-list @ UTC (permalink / raw)
As I have said more than once, that is not how this article is being
represented in the broader Linux community.
I will add that, by this person's own admission, clean up is the task he
is *choosing* to focus upon.
he is, according to those writing the article bringing accessibility to
Fedora workstation.
i respect that for those in the know, in the choir so to speak what he is
doing is clean up.
but that is not how the general Linux community is taking this
information.
Best,
On Sun, 14 Aug 2022, Jookia wrote:
> Hi Karen,
>
> It seems like discussion about this article has been flooding my inbox
> over the past few days so I figured I'd finally read the article.
>
> It looks like he's just going to tidy up GNOME application accessibility
> which ... isn't that hard a job (at least for a sighted person), just
> tedious and political. This doesn't really require high certifications
> or degrees, just labor and people management.
>
> If we demand people have amazing certifications to do work like this
> then you'd end up in a situation like Gitea which has decided to close
> and lockevery unfixed accessibility issue in their tracker and seek a
> paid professional accessibility audit just to tell them to fix their bugs.
>
> Saying speakup without espeakup is basically useless is a stretch, but
> they're certainly rare devices at this point.
>
> Jookia.
>
>
^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 78+ messages in thread
* "Accessibility in Fedora Workstation" (fwd)
` blinux-list
@ ` blinux-list
0 siblings, 0 replies; 78+ messages in thread
From: blinux-list @ UTC (permalink / raw)
That whole idea of we should be grateful for whatever crumbs we get needs to die.
----- Original Message -----
From: Linux for blind general discussion <blinux-list at redhat.com>
To: Didier Spaier <didier at slint.fr>
Cc: Blinux-list at redhat.com, Milan Zamazal <pdm at zamazal.org>, speakup at linux-speakup.org
Date: Sat, 13 Aug 2022 21:35:19 -0400 (EDT)
Subject: Re: "Accessibility in Fedora Workstation" (fwd)
> I am not bashing anyone.
And who Said fedora is providing anything whatsoever for me at all?
Of course, i get asked by the general Linux users group sharing this
article to defend the limited thinking of a so called professional,
because
of course everyone sharing a label with him can access just because he
can.
the very willingness to cut this person some slack as a token
representation of red hat's desire to projectively stereotype is part of why
actual inclusion is problematical.
I am expected to know him, because he is represented to personify my
accommodation needs...and. he. does. not.
The fact it is free is completely unimportant.
On Sun, 14 Aug 2022, Didier Spaier wrote:
> Karen, I concur to all Milan said.
>
> Can't you just stop bashing someone who you don't know (and can't answer you
> unless he is subscribed to one of the mailing list where you posted this rant,
> which seems unfair to me), and a distribution that at least devotes resources to
> accessibility, even if they do not focus specifically on what you would like
> them to? You should just be grateful for all Fedora as provided and continue to
> provide at no cost wrt accessibility. I am, even though I do not personally need
> it.
>
> That there be inaccuracies in the article is not that important and I don't care
> that Luks doesn't know everything in the matter (who does?). I am sure that he
> will quickly complete his knowledge, anyway most probably already sufficient for
> what he is asked to work on.
>
> Best regards,
> Didier
>
>
> Le 14/08/2022 ? 01:07, Karen Lewellen a ?crit?:
>> And as I said from the outset, I am far more concerned with how this article??
>> makes accessibility, and Red Hat commitment to accessibility appear? to the public.
>> A claim to having authority, when stating one knows nothing about how access can
>> be provided to various populations equally deserving is concerning.
>> even in the article comments an individual outlined a need, that they did not
>> anticipate being met because Fedora was creating a "blindness" program.
>> If your associate? leads with stated limits,? yet does not? indicate he plans to
>> address them, inclusion on this platform for all who seek it seems? far from
>> likely.
>> I do agree on the forum though. Had comment snot been closed by the time I got?
>> the article, and I been? in a position to do so, I might have? raised them? on
>> the spot.
>>
>>
>>
>> On Sat, 13 Aug 2022, Milan Zamazal wrote:
>>
>>>>>>>> "KL" == Karen Lewellen <klewellen at shellworld.net> writes:
>>>
>>> ?? KL> may I ask from where he obtained his software engineering
>>> ?? KL> degree?? Studied computer science?? Perhaps disability studies?
>>> ?? KL> there are certainly scores of disabled individuals with these
>>> ?? KL> various levels of qualification..even who are Linux users.? The
>>> ?? KL> interview did not document a single one, outside of his
>>> ?? KL> experiencing blindness..which is not going to insure he creates
>>> ?? KL> an accessible platform for fedora since access refers to several
>>> ?? KL> populations.? and he states he knows nothing about those.
>>>
>>> I have already said regarding this what I felt was needed and I don?t
>>> find appropriate continuing that discussion here.? I?d suggest focusing
>>> on how to improve free software accessibility instead.
>>>
>>> If anybody cares about Fedora accessibility, there is always opportunity
>>> to help by providing fixes to reported bugs, giving technical advice or
>>> filing bugs on not yet reported issues.? All of these is needed, it?s
>>> sometimes difficult to move on with some issues and to get any help.
>>> OTOH trying to demotivate people who work on accessibility is certainly
>>> not helpful.
>>>
>>> Regards,
>>> Milan
>>>
>>> ?? KL> On Sat, 13 Aug 2022, Milan Zamazal wrote:
>>>
>>> ?? >>>>>>> "KL" == Karen Lewellen <klewellen at shellworld.net> writes:
>>> ?? >>
>>> ?? KL> What bothers me most are his lack of actual qualifications, and
>>> ?? KL> absolute dismissal of what he has not experienced..as if he
>>> ?? KL> defines Linux usage for everyone.? That attitude is dangerous,
>>> ?? KL> because he is educating those outside of the accessibility
>>> ?? KL> experiences, who will believe his ignorance is factual.? he has
>>> ?? KL> to be expert, it is his job.
>>> ?? >>
>>> ?? >> Hi Karen,
>>> ?? >>
>>> ?? >> I know Lukas personally and I admire his skills and
>>> ?? >> qualifications.? I also know first hand that he is open to
>>> ?? >> constructive feedback and I believe he?d be happy to be corrected
>>> ?? >> about possible technical inaccuracies in the interview.? It may
>>> ?? >> be also a good opportunity to find out what?s possibly missing in
>>> ?? >> making anybody better informed.
>>> ?? >>
>>> ?? >> As for ?absolute dismissal of what he has not experienced?, what
>>> ?? >> reasonable free software alternatives to a less or more standard
>>> ?? >> desktop with Orca and a software synthesizer can you see for a
>>> ?? >> common blind user who needs to use a fully working web browser,
>>> ?? >> to read and process text documents, to be compatible with other
>>> ?? >> computer users, etc.?
>>> ?? >>
>>> ?? >> And let?s be realistic.? We celebrate every single developer
>>> ?? >> hired to improve accessibility.? This tells something about the
>>> ?? >> state of the matters.? We cannot expect that a single person will
>>> ?? >> fix all the kinds of accessibility problems in all the
>>> ?? >> environments.? Lukas works at his job focusing on certain areas
>>> ?? >> currently seen there as urgent ones and I appreciate this
>>> ?? >> opportunity.? Anybody else seeing a need to work on other areas
>>> ?? >> is welcome to contribute to whatever sees fit, as I do.
>>> ?? >>
>>> ?? >> Regards, Milan
>>> ?? >>
>>> ?? >>
>>> ?? >>
>>>
>>>
>
>
_______________________________________________
Blinux-list mailing list
Blinux-list at redhat.com
https://listman.redhat.com/mailman/listinfo/blinux-list
^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 78+ messages in thread
* "Accessibility in Fedora Workstation" (fwd)
[not found] ` <031e01d8af78$d1313930$80ffa8c0@Win7VM>
@ ` blinux-list
0 siblings, 0 replies; 78+ messages in thread
From: blinux-list @ UTC (permalink / raw)
And your employment track record?
On Sat, 13 Aug 2022, K0LNY_Glenn wrote:
> In my work, the client got what ever they needed.
> We never forced Windows or Jaws on them.
>
> Glenn
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: "Karen Lewellen" <klewellen at shellworld.net>
> To: "K0LNY_Glenn" <glenn at ervin.email>
> Cc: <speakup at linux-speakup.org>; "Milan Zamazal" <pdm at zamazal.org>;
> <Blinux-list at redhat.com>
> Sent: Saturday, August 13, 2022 3:26 PM
> Subject: Re: "Accessibility in Fedora Workstation" (fwd)
>
>
> And how often do clients get a choice about their tools?
> Support this with objective documentation, as this is your professional
> industry, if memory serves.
> I recall on more than one occasion being provided with documentation where
> jaws was the only screen reader choice a client was given.
> Know of at least one professional who turned to Linux because they never
> wanted to use Jaws or windows again.
> since rehab holds the money strings for fs, it is up to the counselors to
> prove, with numbers, that it is worth the financial investment for
> freedom scientific.
> My understanding is that nvda came into being because clients wanted more
> choices than Jaws, and counselors were resistant.
>
>
>
> On Sat, 13 Aug 2022, K0LNY_Glenn wrote:
>
>> True enough, but largely, rehab people typically use Windows at work, and
>> probably at home, but they need to cater to the needs of the client.
>> If a client used Linux, I doubt that any rehab counselor would advocate
>> that
>> the client switch to Windows, unless that was needed for a specific job.
>> In Nebraska, we purchased Jaws much more for personal use than we did for
>> work related situations.
>> So if FS made a JFL, and people were using Linux, rehab would indeed
>> purchase a JFL product.
>> Glenn
>> ----- Original Message -----
>> From: "Karen Lewellen" <klewellen at shellworld.net>
>> To: "K0LNY_Glenn" <glenn at ervin.email>
>> Cc: <speakup at linux-speakup.org>; "Milan Zamazal" <pdm at zamazal.org>;
>> <Blinux-list at redhat.com>
>> Sent: Saturday, August 13, 2022 3:01 PM
>> Subject: Re: "Accessibility in Fedora Workstation" (fwd)
>>
>>
>> there was an interesting discussion a month or so back on the blinux list
>> about how long it took completing tasks in the gui as apposed to say
>> command line, the comments were quite informative.
>> Still, fs has never marketed largely to the end user. Instead they market
>> to the American rehab community.
>> how much market research has the rehab community done to support the need
>> for choices?
>> How many rehab counselors support training in Linux?
>> one comment made by the subject of this thread about poor quality speech
>> is a fine one...out of the box Linux has few speech choices. everyone
>> brings their needs to the table there.
>>
>> if you want to get fs to care about Linux, you need to prove there is
>> money for them there, from their main source of income.
>>
>>
>>
>> On Sat, 13 Aug 2022, K0LNY_Glenn wrote:
>>
>>> Well since Orca seems to work on so many distros, I don't know why FS
>>> would
>>> not be able to do the same.
>>> If Jaws users could switch into Linux, it would be a real game changer,
>>> and
>>> I think with lots more Blind Linux users, we would start seeing
>>> accessibility in Linux not being a second thought.
>>> Glenn
>>> ----- Original Message -----
>>> From: "Karen Lewellen" <klewellen at shellworld.net>
>>> To: "K0LNY_Glenn" <glenn at ervin.email>
>>> Cc: <speakup at linux-speakup.org>; "Milan Zamazal" <pdm at zamazal.org>;
>>> <Blinux-list at redhat.com>
>>> Sent: Saturday, August 13, 2022 1:47 PM
>>> Subject: Re: "Accessibility in Fedora Workstation" (fwd)
>>>
>>>
>>> Well technically freedom scientific does not exist any longer, being
>>> bought
>>> by another company.
>>> Still, I can respect why they, or nvda have not created their tools for
>>> Linux.
>>> That is because as I understand it, Linux is quite like clay. You can
>>> mold a distribution into almost anything. there are various
>>> personifications of the system, all sorts of ways and changes and options
>>> for creativity.
>>> however adaptive tools are often extensions of physical characteristics,
>>> hands, eyes, ears, brains, combinations of these.
>>> To build solid assistive tools one must have a solid foundation as it
>>> were. that is part of why there have needed to be so few Apple efforts
>>> at
>>> inclusion, they created with, and then created in-house adaptive tools
>>> for various populations that were built into the system.
>>> Although Microsoft did not bother until much later, in theory at least,
>>> the
>>> consistency of windows is what makes it possible for freedom or the
>>> former
>>> gw micro or nvda to create something that can in theory work.
>>> Floor for the furniture is somewhat solid.
>>> Just my thoughts,
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> On Sat, 13 Aug 2022, K0LNY_Glenn wrote:
>>>
>>>> I would like to see Freedom Scientific make a Jaws For Linux.
>>>> JFL
>>>> I'd certainly pay the yearly rental fee for it, and it would bring many
>>>> more
>>>> users into Linux.
>>>> FS could, with its resources, possibly make it more robust than Orca.
>>>>
>>>> Glenn
>>>> ----- Original Message -----
>>>> From: "Milan Zamazal" <pdm at zamazal.org>
>>>> To: <speakup at linux-speakup.org>
>>>> Cc: <Blinux-list at redhat.com>
>>>> Sent: Saturday, August 13, 2022 12:08 PM
>>>> Subject: Re: "Accessibility in Fedora Workstation" (fwd)
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>>>>>> "KL" == Karen Lewellen <klewellen at shellworld.net> writes:
>>>>
>>>> KL> What bothers me most are his lack of actual qualifications, and
>>>> KL> absolute dismissal of what he has not experienced..as if he
>>>> KL> defines Linux usage for everyone. That attitude is dangerous,
>>>> KL> because he is educating those outside of the accessibility
>>>> KL> experiences, who will believe his ignorance is factual. he has
>>>> KL> to be expert, it is his job.
>>>>
>>>> Hi Karen,
>>>>
>>>> I know Lukas personally and I admire his skills and qualifications. I
>>>> also know first hand that he is open to constructive feedback and I
>>>> believe he?d be happy to be corrected about possible technical
>>>> inaccuracies in the interview. It may be also a good opportunity to
>>>> find out what?s possibly missing in making anybody better informed.
>>>>
>>>> As for ?absolute dismissal of what he has not experienced?, what
>>>> reasonable free software alternatives to a less or more standard desktop
>>>> with Orca and a software synthesizer can you see for a common blind user
>>>> who needs to use a fully working web browser, to read and process text
>>>> documents, to be compatible with other computer users, etc.?
>>>>
>>>> And let?s be realistic. We celebrate every single developer hired to
>>>> improve accessibility. This tells something about the state of the
>>>> matters. We cannot expect that a single person will fix all the kinds
>>>> of accessibility problems in all the environments. Lukas works at his
>>>> job focusing on certain areas currently seen there as urgent ones and I
>>>> appreciate this opportunity. Anybody else seeing a need to work on
>>>> other areas is welcome to contribute to whatever sees fit, as I do.
>>>>
>>>> Regards,
>>>> Milan
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>
>>>
>>
>>
>>
>
>
^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 78+ messages in thread
* "Accessibility in Fedora Workstation" (fwd)
[not found] ` <139f99c7-4d2b-9751-db8c-338eeceb2d4b@panix.com>
@ ` blinux-list
0 siblings, 0 replies; 78+ messages in thread
From: blinux-list @ UTC (permalink / raw)
That is not surprising. Great example of innovative thinking.
However, for all the Linux energy, there are almost no efforts to say
raise the Linux profile for say website testing and the like.
There are still companies who expect one to be using jaws, and that one
need not test in Linux at all.
On Sat, 13 Aug 2022, Jude DaShiell wrote:
> nvda came into existence due to the nosebleed pricing of jaws. Apparently
> people who worked in an office with jaws couldn't install it on their home
> computers in many cases and nvda made it possible for those home computers
> to start talking better than narrator would allow in the 2000's.
>
>
> On Sat, 13 Aug 2022, Karen Lewellen wrote:
>
>> And how often do clients get a choice about their tools?
>> Support this with objective documentation, as this is your professional
>> industry, if memory serves.
>> I recall on more than one occasion being provided with documentation where
>> jaws was the only screen reader choice a client was given.
>> Know of at least one professional who turned to Linux because they never
>> wanted to use Jaws or windows again.
>> since rehab holds the money strings for fs, it is up to the counselors to
>> prove, with numbers, that it is worth the financial investment for freedom
>> scientific.
>> My understanding is that nvda came into being because clients wanted more
>> choices than Jaws, and counselors were resistant.
>>
>>
>>
>> On Sat, 13 Aug 2022, K0LNY_Glenn wrote:
>>
>>> True enough, but largely, rehab people typically use Windows at work, and
>>> probably at home, but they need to cater to the needs of the client.
>>> If a client used Linux, I doubt that any rehab counselor would advocate that
>>> the client switch to Windows, unless that was needed for a specific job.
>>> In Nebraska, we purchased Jaws much more for personal use than we did for
>>> work related situations.
>>> So if FS made a JFL, and people were using Linux, rehab would indeed
>>> purchase a JFL product.
>>> Glenn
>>> ----- Original Message -----
>>> From: "Karen Lewellen" <klewellen at shellworld.net>
>>> To: "K0LNY_Glenn" <glenn at ervin.email>
>>> Cc: <speakup at linux-speakup.org>; "Milan Zamazal" <pdm at zamazal.org>;
>>> <Blinux-list at redhat.com>
>>> Sent: Saturday, August 13, 2022 3:01 PM
>>> Subject: Re: "Accessibility in Fedora Workstation" (fwd)
>>>
>>>
>>> there was an interesting discussion a month or so back on the blinux list
>>> about how long it took completing tasks in the gui as apposed to say
>>> command line, the comments were quite informative.
>>> Still, fs has never marketed largely to the end user. Instead they market
>>> to the American rehab community.
>>> how much market research has the rehab community done to support the need
>>> for choices?
>>> How many rehab counselors support training in Linux?
>>> one comment made by the subject of this thread about poor quality speech
>>> is a fine one...out of the box Linux has few speech choices. everyone
>>> brings their needs to the table there.
>>>
>>> if you want to get fs to care about Linux, you need to prove there is
>>> money for them there, from their main source of income.
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> On Sat, 13 Aug 2022, K0LNY_Glenn wrote:
>>>
>>>> Well since Orca seems to work on so many distros, I don't know why FS
>>>> would
>>>> not be able to do the same.
>>>> If Jaws users could switch into Linux, it would be a real game changer,
>>>> and
>>>> I think with lots more Blind Linux users, we would start seeing
>>>> accessibility in Linux not being a second thought.
>>>> Glenn
>>>> ----- Original Message -----
>>>> From: "Karen Lewellen" <klewellen at shellworld.net>
>>>> To: "K0LNY_Glenn" <glenn at ervin.email>
>>>> Cc: <speakup at linux-speakup.org>; "Milan Zamazal" <pdm at zamazal.org>;
>>>> <Blinux-list at redhat.com>
>>>> Sent: Saturday, August 13, 2022 1:47 PM
>>>> Subject: Re: "Accessibility in Fedora Workstation" (fwd)
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> Well technically freedom scientific does not exist any longer, being
>>>> bought
>>>> by another company.
>>>> Still, I can respect why they, or nvda have not created their tools for
>>>> Linux.
>>>> That is because as I understand it, Linux is quite like clay. You can
>>>> mold a distribution into almost anything. there are various
>>>> personifications of the system, all sorts of ways and changes and options
>>>> for creativity.
>>>> however adaptive tools are often extensions of physical characteristics,
>>>> hands, eyes, ears, brains, combinations of these.
>>>> To build solid assistive tools one must have a solid foundation as it
>>>> were. that is part of why there have needed to be so few Apple efforts
>>>> at
>>>> inclusion, they created with, and then created in-house adaptive tools
>>>> for various populations that were built into the system.
>>>> Although Microsoft did not bother until much later, in theory at least,
>>>> the
>>>> consistency of windows is what makes it possible for freedom or the former
>>>> gw micro or nvda to create something that can in theory work.
>>>> Floor for the furniture is somewhat solid.
>>>> Just my thoughts,
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> On Sat, 13 Aug 2022, K0LNY_Glenn wrote:
>>>>
>>>>> I would like to see Freedom Scientific make a Jaws For Linux.
>>>>> JFL
>>>>> I'd certainly pay the yearly rental fee for it, and it would bring many
>>>>> more
>>>>> users into Linux.
>>>>> FS could, with its resources, possibly make it more robust than Orca.
>>>>>
>>>>> Glenn
>>>>> ----- Original Message -----
>>>>> From: "Milan Zamazal" <pdm at zamazal.org>
>>>>> To: <speakup at linux-speakup.org>
>>>>> Cc: <Blinux-list at redhat.com>
>>>>> Sent: Saturday, August 13, 2022 12:08 PM
>>>>> Subject: Re: "Accessibility in Fedora Workstation" (fwd)
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> "KL" == Karen Lewellen <klewellen at shellworld.net> writes:
>>>>>
>>>>> KL> What bothers me most are his lack of actual qualifications, and
>>>>> KL> absolute dismissal of what he has not experienced..as if he
>>>>> KL> defines Linux usage for everyone. That attitude is dangerous,
>>>>> KL> because he is educating those outside of the accessibility
>>>>> KL> experiences, who will believe his ignorance is factual. he has
>>>>> KL> to be expert, it is his job.
>>>>>
>>>>> Hi Karen,
>>>>>
>>>>> I know Lukas personally and I admire his skills and qualifications. I
>>>>> also know first hand that he is open to constructive feedback and I
>>>>> believe he?d be happy to be corrected about possible technical
>>>>> inaccuracies in the interview. It may be also a good opportunity to
>>>>> find out what?s possibly missing in making anybody better informed.
>>>>>
>>>>> As for ?absolute dismissal of what he has not experienced?, what
>>>>> reasonable free software alternatives to a less or more standard desktop
>>>>> with Orca and a software synthesizer can you see for a common blind user
>>>>> who needs to use a fully working web browser, to read and process text
>>>>> documents, to be compatible with other computer users, etc.?
>>>>>
>>>>> And let?s be realistic. We celebrate every single developer hired to
>>>>> improve accessibility. This tells something about the state of the
>>>>> matters. We cannot expect that a single person will fix all the kinds
>>>>> of accessibility problems in all the environments. Lukas works at his
>>>>> job focusing on certain areas currently seen there as urgent ones and I
>>>>> appreciate this opportunity. Anybody else seeing a need to work on
>>>>> other areas is welcome to contribute to whatever sees fit, as I do.
>>>>>
>>>>> Regards,
>>>>> Milan
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>
>
>
^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 78+ messages in thread
* "Accessibility in Fedora Workstation" (fwd)
[not found] ` <fa2b05c2-3556-b6e2-c125-045ef5e5724e@slint.fr>
@ ` blinux-list
` blinux-list
0 siblings, 1 reply; 78+ messages in thread
From: blinux-list @ UTC (permalink / raw)
I am not bashing anyone.
And who Said fedora is providing anything whatsoever for me at all?
Of course, i get asked by the general Linux users group sharing this
article to defend the limited thinking of a so called professional,
because
of course everyone sharing a label with him can access just because he
can.
the very willingness to cut this person some slack as a token
representation of red hat's desire to projectively stereotype is part of why
actual inclusion is problematical.
I am expected to know him, because he is represented to personify my
accommodation needs...and. he. does. not.
The fact it is free is completely unimportant.
On Sun, 14 Aug 2022, Didier Spaier wrote:
> Karen, I concur to all Milan said.
>
> Can't you just stop bashing someone who you don't know (and can't answer you
> unless he is subscribed to one of the mailing list where you posted this rant,
> which seems unfair to me), and a distribution that at least devotes resources to
> accessibility, even if they do not focus specifically on what you would like
> them to? You should just be grateful for all Fedora as provided and continue to
> provide at no cost wrt accessibility. I am, even though I do not personally need
> it.
>
> That there be inaccuracies in the article is not that important and I don't care
> that Luks doesn't know everything in the matter (who does?). I am sure that he
> will quickly complete his knowledge, anyway most probably already sufficient for
> what he is asked to work on.
>
> Best regards,
> Didier
>
>
> Le 14/08/2022 ? 01:07, Karen Lewellen a ?crit?:
>> And as I said from the outset, I am far more concerned with how this article??
>> makes accessibility, and Red Hat commitment to accessibility appear? to the public.
>> A claim to having authority, when stating one knows nothing about how access can
>> be provided to various populations equally deserving is concerning.
>> even in the article comments an individual outlined a need, that they did not
>> anticipate being met because Fedora was creating a "blindness" program.
>> If your associate? leads with stated limits,? yet does not? indicate he plans to
>> address them, inclusion on this platform for all who seek it seems? far from
>> likely.
>> I do agree on the forum though. Had comment snot been closed by the time I got?
>> the article, and I been? in a position to do so, I might have? raised them? on
>> the spot.
>>
>>
>>
>> On Sat, 13 Aug 2022, Milan Zamazal wrote:
>>
>>>>>>>> "KL" == Karen Lewellen <klewellen at shellworld.net> writes:
>>>
>>> ?? KL> may I ask from where he obtained his software engineering
>>> ?? KL> degree?? Studied computer science?? Perhaps disability studies?
>>> ?? KL> there are certainly scores of disabled individuals with these
>>> ?? KL> various levels of qualification..even who are Linux users.? The
>>> ?? KL> interview did not document a single one, outside of his
>>> ?? KL> experiencing blindness..which is not going to insure he creates
>>> ?? KL> an accessible platform for fedora since access refers to several
>>> ?? KL> populations.? and he states he knows nothing about those.
>>>
>>> I have already said regarding this what I felt was needed and I don?t
>>> find appropriate continuing that discussion here.? I?d suggest focusing
>>> on how to improve free software accessibility instead.
>>>
>>> If anybody cares about Fedora accessibility, there is always opportunity
>>> to help by providing fixes to reported bugs, giving technical advice or
>>> filing bugs on not yet reported issues.? All of these is needed, it?s
>>> sometimes difficult to move on with some issues and to get any help.
>>> OTOH trying to demotivate people who work on accessibility is certainly
>>> not helpful.
>>>
>>> Regards,
>>> Milan
>>>
>>> ?? KL> On Sat, 13 Aug 2022, Milan Zamazal wrote:
>>>
>>> ?? >>>>>>> "KL" == Karen Lewellen <klewellen at shellworld.net> writes:
>>> ?? >>
>>> ?? KL> What bothers me most are his lack of actual qualifications, and
>>> ?? KL> absolute dismissal of what he has not experienced..as if he
>>> ?? KL> defines Linux usage for everyone.? That attitude is dangerous,
>>> ?? KL> because he is educating those outside of the accessibility
>>> ?? KL> experiences, who will believe his ignorance is factual.? he has
>>> ?? KL> to be expert, it is his job.
>>> ?? >>
>>> ?? >> Hi Karen,
>>> ?? >>
>>> ?? >> I know Lukas personally and I admire his skills and
>>> ?? >> qualifications.? I also know first hand that he is open to
>>> ?? >> constructive feedback and I believe he?d be happy to be corrected
>>> ?? >> about possible technical inaccuracies in the interview.? It may
>>> ?? >> be also a good opportunity to find out what?s possibly missing in
>>> ?? >> making anybody better informed.
>>> ?? >>
>>> ?? >> As for ?absolute dismissal of what he has not experienced?, what
>>> ?? >> reasonable free software alternatives to a less or more standard
>>> ?? >> desktop with Orca and a software synthesizer can you see for a
>>> ?? >> common blind user who needs to use a fully working web browser,
>>> ?? >> to read and process text documents, to be compatible with other
>>> ?? >> computer users, etc.?
>>> ?? >>
>>> ?? >> And let?s be realistic.? We celebrate every single developer
>>> ?? >> hired to improve accessibility.? This tells something about the
>>> ?? >> state of the matters.? We cannot expect that a single person will
>>> ?? >> fix all the kinds of accessibility problems in all the
>>> ?? >> environments.? Lukas works at his job focusing on certain areas
>>> ?? >> currently seen there as urgent ones and I appreciate this
>>> ?? >> opportunity.? Anybody else seeing a need to work on other areas
>>> ?? >> is welcome to contribute to whatever sees fit, as I do.
>>> ?? >>
>>> ?? >> Regards, Milan
>>> ?? >>
>>> ?? >>
>>> ?? >>
>>>
>>>
>
>
^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 78+ messages in thread
* "Accessibility in Fedora Workstation" (fwd)
` blinux-list
` blinux-list
@ ` blinux-list
1 sibling, 0 replies; 78+ messages in thread
From: blinux-list @ UTC (permalink / raw)
The only problem with voxin is that it uses incredibly ancient libraries which may stop working any day now. Sigh.
----- Original Message -----
From: Linux for blind general discussion <blinux-list at redhat.com>
To: Linux for blind general discussion <blinux-list at redhat.com>
Date: Sat, 13 Aug 2022 19:29:22 -0400
Subject: Re: "Accessibility in Fedora Workstation" (fwd)
> I used JAWS before I used Orca.? I had to learn some new things, but not
many, so I had no reason to think we needed the makers of JAWS (whatever
name they now use) to port it to Linux.? It also seems to me a strange
combination, Linux distributions containing solely or primarily free
software (almost always free of charge as well as the "four freedoms"
and JAWS, which was and remains proprietary.? I have no idea what it
would cost that company to create a JAWS that works seamlessly with the
Linux kernel and the software running under it, but I so far have no
reason for wanting to pay for that.
The one thing I like about JAWS when I need to use our Windows machine
is Eloquence.? It's the main reason my wife gives me for not wanting to
move to Linux.? I've always assumed that somebody with the time, tools,
and knowledge, or some group, could create free software voices as good
as Eloquence.? Maybe I should even try to be such a programmer, but that
will not be soon.? In the meantime, I guess, there is Voxin, which I
think is not free software, in terms of freedom, but is cheaper than JAWS.
Al
On 8/13/22 16:01, Linux for blind general discussion wrote:
> there was an interesting discussion a month or so back on the blinux
> list about how long it took completing tasks in the gui as apposed to
> say command line,? the comments were quite informative.
> Still, fs has never marketed largely to the end user. Instead they
> market to the American rehab community.
> how much market research has? the rehab community done to support the
> need for choices?
> How many rehab counselors support? training in Linux?
> one comment made by the subject of this thread about poor quality
> speech is a fine one...out of the box Linux has few speech choices.?
> everyone brings their needs to the table there.
>
> if you want to get fs to care about Linux, you? need to prove there is
> money for? them there, from their main source of income.
>
>
>
> On Sat, 13 Aug 2022, K0LNY_Glenn wrote:
>
>> Well since Orca seems to work on so many distros, I don't know why FS
>> would
>> not be able to do the same.
>> If Jaws users could switch into Linux, it would be a real game
>> changer, and
>> I think with lots more Blind Linux users, we would start seeing
>> accessibility in Linux not being a second thought.
>> Glenn
>> ----- Original Message -----
>> From: "Karen Lewellen" <klewellen at shellworld.net>
>> To: "K0LNY_Glenn" <glenn at ervin.email>
>> Cc: <speakup at linux-speakup.org>; "Milan Zamazal" <pdm at zamazal.org>;
>> <Blinux-list at redhat.com>
>> Sent: Saturday, August 13, 2022 1:47 PM
>> Subject: Re: "Accessibility in Fedora Workstation" (fwd)
>>
>>
>> Well technically freedom scientific does not exist any longer, being
>> bought
>> by another company.
>> Still, I can respect why they, or nvda have not created their tools for
>> Linux.
>> That is because as I understand it, Linux is? quite like clay. You can
>> mold a distribution into almost anything. there are various
>> personifications of the system, all sorts of ways and changes and
>> options
>> for creativity.
>> however adaptive tools are often extensions of physical characteristics,
>> hands, eyes, ears, brains, combinations of these.
>> To build solid assistive tools one must have a solid? foundation as it
>> were.? that is part of why there have needed to be so few Apple
>> efforts at
>> inclusion, they? created? with, and then created in-house adaptive tools
>> for various? populations that were built into the system.
>> Although Microsoft did not bother until much later, in theory at
>> least, the
>> consistency of windows is what makes it possible for freedom or the
>> former
>> gw? micro or nvda to create something that can in theory? work.
>> Floor for the furniture is somewhat solid.
>> Just my thoughts,
>>
>>
>>
>> On Sat, 13 Aug 2022, K0LNY_Glenn wrote:
>>
>>> I would like to see Freedom Scientific make a Jaws For Linux.
>>> JFL
>>> I'd certainly pay the yearly rental fee for it, and it would bring many
>>> more
>>> users into Linux.
>>> FS could, with its resources, possibly make it more robust than Orca.
>>>
>>> Glenn
>>> ----- Original Message -----
>>> From: "Milan Zamazal" <pdm at zamazal.org>
>>> To: <speakup at linux-speakup.org>
>>> Cc: <Blinux-list at redhat.com>
>>> Sent: Saturday, August 13, 2022 12:08 PM
>>> Subject: Re: "Accessibility in Fedora Workstation" (fwd)
>>>
>>>
>>>>>>>> "KL" == Karen Lewellen <klewellen at shellworld.net> writes:
>>>
>>> ?? KL> What bothers me most are his lack of actual qualifications, and
>>> ?? KL> absolute dismissal of what he has not experienced..as if he
>>> ?? KL> defines Linux usage for everyone.? That attitude is dangerous,
>>> ?? KL> because he is educating those outside of the accessibility
>>> ?? KL> experiences, who will believe his ignorance is factual.? he has
>>> ?? KL> to be expert, it is his job.
>>>
>>> Hi Karen,
>>>
>>> I know Lukas personally and I admire his skills and qualifications.? I
>>> also know first hand that he is open to constructive feedback and I
>>> believe he?d be happy to be corrected about possible technical
>>> inaccuracies in the interview.? It may be also a good opportunity to
>>> find out what?s possibly missing in making anybody better informed.
>>>
>>> As for ?absolute dismissal of what he has not experienced?, what
>>> reasonable free software alternatives to a less or more standard
>>> desktop
>>> with Orca and a software synthesizer can you see for a common blind
>>> user
>>> who needs to use a fully working web browser, to read and process text
>>> documents, to be compatible with other computer users, etc.?
>>>
>>> And let?s be realistic.? We celebrate every single developer hired to
>>> improve accessibility.? This tells something about the state of the
>>> matters.? We cannot expect that a single person will fix all the kinds
>>> of accessibility problems in all the environments.? Lukas works at his
>>> job focusing on certain areas currently seen there as urgent ones and I
>>> appreciate this opportunity.? Anybody else seeing a need to work on
>>> other areas is welcome to contribute to whatever sees fit, as I do.
>>>
>>> Regards,
>>> Milan
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>
>>
> _______________________________________________
> Blinux-list mailing list
> Blinux-list at redhat.com
> https://listman.redhat.com/mailman/listinfo/blinux-list
_______________________________________________
Blinux-list mailing list
Blinux-list at redhat.com
https://listman.redhat.com/mailman/listinfo/blinux-list
^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 78+ messages in thread
* "Accessibility in Fedora Workstation" (fwd)
` blinux-list
@ ` blinux-list
` blinux-list
1 sibling, 0 replies; 78+ messages in thread
From: blinux-list @ UTC (permalink / raw)
Well, Al, Voxin is useing I B M T T S which is exactly the same as Eliquence.
Also, unrelated, through much of this discussion I am getting 2 duplicate
messages for each comment.
I also wanted to comment, in my situation back around 2000 working at a phone
company, I was still happily in DOS. I almost convinced them to let me get
company mail in Pine. Before that happened, they changed their mind. Then even
worse the company brought in a hard-nose who took away my DOS machine for
win98. The company did actually have Linux courses in their learning system. An
only item which rehab got me was a Brailler, as where the company paid for
folks to train me or write windows scripts.
Chime
^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 78+ messages in thread
* "Accessibility in Fedora Workstation" (fwd)
[not found] ` <Pine.LNX.4.64.2208131900060.1258388@server2.shellworld.net>
@ ` blinux-list
[not found] ` <fa2b05c2-3556-b6e2-c125-045ef5e5724e@slint.fr>
1 sibling, 0 replies; 78+ messages in thread
From: blinux-list @ UTC (permalink / raw)
Karen, I concur to all Milan said.
Can't you just stop bashing someone who you don't know (and can't answer you
unless he is subscribed to one of the mailing list where you posted this rant,
which seems unfair to me), and a distribution that at least devotes resources to
accessibility, even if they do not focus specifically on what you would like
them to? You should just be grateful for all Fedora as provided and continue to
provide at no cost wrt accessibility. I am, even though I do not personally need
it.
That there be inaccuracies in the article is not that important and I don't care
that Luks doesn't know everything in the matter (who does?). I am sure that he
will quickly complete his knowledge, anyway most probably already sufficient for
what he is asked to work on.
Best regards,
Didier
Le 14/08/2022 ? 01:07, Karen Lewellen a ?crit?:
> And as I said from the outset, I am far more concerned with how this article??
> makes accessibility, and Red Hat commitment to accessibility appear? to the public.
> A claim to having authority, when stating one knows nothing about how access can
> be provided to various populations equally deserving is concerning.
> even in the article comments an individual outlined a need, that they did not
> anticipate being met because Fedora was creating a "blindness" program.
> If your associate? leads with stated limits,? yet does not? indicate he plans to
> address them, inclusion on this platform for all who seek it seems? far from
> likely.
> I do agree on the forum though. Had comment snot been closed by the time I got?
> the article, and I been? in a position to do so, I might have? raised them? on
> the spot.
>
>
>
> On Sat, 13 Aug 2022, Milan Zamazal wrote:
>
>>>>>>> "KL" == Karen Lewellen <klewellen at shellworld.net> writes:
>>
>> ?? KL> may I ask from where he obtained his software engineering
>> ?? KL> degree?? Studied computer science?? Perhaps disability studies?
>> ?? KL> there are certainly scores of disabled individuals with these
>> ?? KL> various levels of qualification..even who are Linux users.? The
>> ?? KL> interview did not document a single one, outside of his
>> ?? KL> experiencing blindness..which is not going to insure he creates
>> ?? KL> an accessible platform for fedora since access refers to several
>> ?? KL> populations.? and he states he knows nothing about those.
>>
>> I have already said regarding this what I felt was needed and I don?t
>> find appropriate continuing that discussion here.? I?d suggest focusing
>> on how to improve free software accessibility instead.
>>
>> If anybody cares about Fedora accessibility, there is always opportunity
>> to help by providing fixes to reported bugs, giving technical advice or
>> filing bugs on not yet reported issues.? All of these is needed, it?s
>> sometimes difficult to move on with some issues and to get any help.
>> OTOH trying to demotivate people who work on accessibility is certainly
>> not helpful.
>>
>> Regards,
>> Milan
>>
>> ?? KL> On Sat, 13 Aug 2022, Milan Zamazal wrote:
>>
>> ?? >>>>>>> "KL" == Karen Lewellen <klewellen at shellworld.net> writes:
>> ?? >>
>> ?? KL> What bothers me most are his lack of actual qualifications, and
>> ?? KL> absolute dismissal of what he has not experienced..as if he
>> ?? KL> defines Linux usage for everyone.? That attitude is dangerous,
>> ?? KL> because he is educating those outside of the accessibility
>> ?? KL> experiences, who will believe his ignorance is factual.? he has
>> ?? KL> to be expert, it is his job.
>> ?? >>
>> ?? >> Hi Karen,
>> ?? >>
>> ?? >> I know Lukas personally and I admire his skills and
>> ?? >> qualifications.? I also know first hand that he is open to
>> ?? >> constructive feedback and I believe he?d be happy to be corrected
>> ?? >> about possible technical inaccuracies in the interview.? It may
>> ?? >> be also a good opportunity to find out what?s possibly missing in
>> ?? >> making anybody better informed.
>> ?? >>
>> ?? >> As for ?absolute dismissal of what he has not experienced?, what
>> ?? >> reasonable free software alternatives to a less or more standard
>> ?? >> desktop with Orca and a software synthesizer can you see for a
>> ?? >> common blind user who needs to use a fully working web browser,
>> ?? >> to read and process text documents, to be compatible with other
>> ?? >> computer users, etc.?
>> ?? >>
>> ?? >> And let?s be realistic.? We celebrate every single developer
>> ?? >> hired to improve accessibility.? This tells something about the
>> ?? >> state of the matters.? We cannot expect that a single person will
>> ?? >> fix all the kinds of accessibility problems in all the
>> ?? >> environments.? Lukas works at his job focusing on certain areas
>> ?? >> currently seen there as urgent ones and I appreciate this
>> ?? >> opportunity.? Anybody else seeing a need to work on other areas
>> ?? >> is welcome to contribute to whatever sees fit, as I do.
>> ?? >>
>> ?? >> Regards, Milan
>> ?? >>
>> ?? >>
>> ?? >>
>>
>>
^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 78+ messages in thread
* "Accessibility in Fedora Workstation" (fwd)
` blinux-list
@ ` blinux-list
` blinux-list
` blinux-list
0 siblings, 2 replies; 78+ messages in thread
From: blinux-list @ UTC (permalink / raw)
I used JAWS before I used Orca.? I had to learn some new things, but not
many, so I had no reason to think we needed the makers of JAWS (whatever
name they now use) to port it to Linux.? It also seems to me a strange
combination, Linux distributions containing solely or primarily free
software (almost always free of charge as well as the "four freedoms"
and JAWS, which was and remains proprietary.? I have no idea what it
would cost that company to create a JAWS that works seamlessly with the
Linux kernel and the software running under it, but I so far have no
reason for wanting to pay for that.
The one thing I like about JAWS when I need to use our Windows machine
is Eloquence.? It's the main reason my wife gives me for not wanting to
move to Linux.? I've always assumed that somebody with the time, tools,
and knowledge, or some group, could create free software voices as good
as Eloquence.? Maybe I should even try to be such a programmer, but that
will not be soon.? In the meantime, I guess, there is Voxin, which I
think is not free software, in terms of freedom, but is cheaper than JAWS.
Al
On 8/13/22 16:01, Linux for blind general discussion wrote:
> there was an interesting discussion a month or so back on the blinux
> list about how long it took completing tasks in the gui as apposed to
> say command line,? the comments were quite informative.
> Still, fs has never marketed largely to the end user. Instead they
> market to the American rehab community.
> how much market research has? the rehab community done to support the
> need for choices?
> How many rehab counselors support? training in Linux?
> one comment made by the subject of this thread about poor quality
> speech is a fine one...out of the box Linux has few speech choices.?
> everyone brings their needs to the table there.
>
> if you want to get fs to care about Linux, you? need to prove there is
> money for? them there, from their main source of income.
>
>
>
> On Sat, 13 Aug 2022, K0LNY_Glenn wrote:
>
>> Well since Orca seems to work on so many distros, I don't know why FS
>> would
>> not be able to do the same.
>> If Jaws users could switch into Linux, it would be a real game
>> changer, and
>> I think with lots more Blind Linux users, we would start seeing
>> accessibility in Linux not being a second thought.
>> Glenn
>> ----- Original Message -----
>> From: "Karen Lewellen" <klewellen at shellworld.net>
>> To: "K0LNY_Glenn" <glenn at ervin.email>
>> Cc: <speakup at linux-speakup.org>; "Milan Zamazal" <pdm at zamazal.org>;
>> <Blinux-list at redhat.com>
>> Sent: Saturday, August 13, 2022 1:47 PM
>> Subject: Re: "Accessibility in Fedora Workstation" (fwd)
>>
>>
>> Well technically freedom scientific does not exist any longer, being
>> bought
>> by another company.
>> Still, I can respect why they, or nvda have not created their tools for
>> Linux.
>> That is because as I understand it, Linux is? quite like clay. You can
>> mold a distribution into almost anything. there are various
>> personifications of the system, all sorts of ways and changes and
>> options
>> for creativity.
>> however adaptive tools are often extensions of physical characteristics,
>> hands, eyes, ears, brains, combinations of these.
>> To build solid assistive tools one must have a solid? foundation as it
>> were.? that is part of why there have needed to be so few Apple
>> efforts at
>> inclusion, they? created? with, and then created in-house adaptive tools
>> for various? populations that were built into the system.
>> Although Microsoft did not bother until much later, in theory at
>> least, the
>> consistency of windows is what makes it possible for freedom or the
>> former
>> gw? micro or nvda to create something that can in theory? work.
>> Floor for the furniture is somewhat solid.
>> Just my thoughts,
>>
>>
>>
>> On Sat, 13 Aug 2022, K0LNY_Glenn wrote:
>>
>>> I would like to see Freedom Scientific make a Jaws For Linux.
>>> JFL
>>> I'd certainly pay the yearly rental fee for it, and it would bring many
>>> more
>>> users into Linux.
>>> FS could, with its resources, possibly make it more robust than Orca.
>>>
>>> Glenn
>>> ----- Original Message -----
>>> From: "Milan Zamazal" <pdm at zamazal.org>
>>> To: <speakup at linux-speakup.org>
>>> Cc: <Blinux-list at redhat.com>
>>> Sent: Saturday, August 13, 2022 12:08 PM
>>> Subject: Re: "Accessibility in Fedora Workstation" (fwd)
>>>
>>>
>>>>>>>> "KL" == Karen Lewellen <klewellen at shellworld.net> writes:
>>>
>>> ?? KL> What bothers me most are his lack of actual qualifications, and
>>> ?? KL> absolute dismissal of what he has not experienced..as if he
>>> ?? KL> defines Linux usage for everyone.? That attitude is dangerous,
>>> ?? KL> because he is educating those outside of the accessibility
>>> ?? KL> experiences, who will believe his ignorance is factual.? he has
>>> ?? KL> to be expert, it is his job.
>>>
>>> Hi Karen,
>>>
>>> I know Lukas personally and I admire his skills and qualifications.? I
>>> also know first hand that he is open to constructive feedback and I
>>> believe he?d be happy to be corrected about possible technical
>>> inaccuracies in the interview.? It may be also a good opportunity to
>>> find out what?s possibly missing in making anybody better informed.
>>>
>>> As for ?absolute dismissal of what he has not experienced?, what
>>> reasonable free software alternatives to a less or more standard
>>> desktop
>>> with Orca and a software synthesizer can you see for a common blind
>>> user
>>> who needs to use a fully working web browser, to read and process text
>>> documents, to be compatible with other computer users, etc.?
>>>
>>> And let?s be realistic.? We celebrate every single developer hired to
>>> improve accessibility.? This tells something about the state of the
>>> matters.? We cannot expect that a single person will fix all the kinds
>>> of accessibility problems in all the environments.? Lukas works at his
>>> job focusing on certain areas currently seen there as urgent ones and I
>>> appreciate this opportunity.? Anybody else seeing a need to work on
>>> other areas is welcome to contribute to whatever sees fit, as I do.
>>>
>>> Regards,
>>> Milan
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>
>>
> _______________________________________________
> Blinux-list mailing list
> Blinux-list at redhat.com
> https://listman.redhat.com/mailman/listinfo/blinux-list
^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 78+ messages in thread
* "Accessibility in Fedora Workstation" (fwd)
[not found] ` <031101d8af50$8f3d3fb0$80ffa8c0@Win7VM>
` blinux-list
[not found] ` <Pine.LNX.4.64.2208131618030.1255408@server2.shellworld.net>
@ ` blinux-list
[not found] ` <Pine.LNX.4.64.2208131909070.1258388@server2.shellworld.net>
3 siblings, 0 replies; 78+ messages in thread
From: blinux-list @ UTC (permalink / raw)
The challenge with that example is that, as one often gets reminded, the
rehab systems track record for facilitating employment for their clients
is quite poor.
With a high percentage of unemployment among our clients. Making,
speaking personally, your buying Jaws for personal use not really
reflecting how the system would respond to an alternative request.
Now if someone from organized rehab said, okay freedom scientific, we are
creating an employment program where our clients will train in Linux,
needing a solid screen reader solution for the system. We will give you an
exclusive development contract for s millions to create the tool.
Fs would likely say where do we sign?
On Sat, 13 Aug 2022, K0LNY_Glenn wrote:
> True enough, but largely, rehab people typically use Windows at work, and
> probably at home, but they need to cater to the needs of the client.
> If a client used Linux, I doubt that any rehab counselor would advocate that
> the client switch to Windows, unless that was needed for a specific job.
> In Nebraska, we purchased Jaws much more for personal use than we did for
> work related situations.
> So if FS made a JFL, and people were using Linux, rehab would indeed
> purchase a JFL product.
> Glenn
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: "Karen Lewellen" <klewellen at shellworld.net>
> To: "K0LNY_Glenn" <glenn at ervin.email>
> Cc: <speakup at linux-speakup.org>; "Milan Zamazal" <pdm at zamazal.org>;
> <Blinux-list at redhat.com>
> Sent: Saturday, August 13, 2022 3:01 PM
> Subject: Re: "Accessibility in Fedora Workstation" (fwd)
>
>
> there was an interesting discussion a month or so back on the blinux list
> about how long it took completing tasks in the gui as apposed to say
> command line, the comments were quite informative.
> Still, fs has never marketed largely to the end user. Instead they market
> to the American rehab community.
> how much market research has the rehab community done to support the need
> for choices?
> How many rehab counselors support training in Linux?
> one comment made by the subject of this thread about poor quality speech
> is a fine one...out of the box Linux has few speech choices. everyone
> brings their needs to the table there.
>
> if you want to get fs to care about Linux, you need to prove there is
> money for them there, from their main source of income.
>
>
>
> On Sat, 13 Aug 2022, K0LNY_Glenn wrote:
>
>> Well since Orca seems to work on so many distros, I don't know why FS
>> would
>> not be able to do the same.
>> If Jaws users could switch into Linux, it would be a real game changer,
>> and
>> I think with lots more Blind Linux users, we would start seeing
>> accessibility in Linux not being a second thought.
>> Glenn
>> ----- Original Message -----
>> From: "Karen Lewellen" <klewellen at shellworld.net>
>> To: "K0LNY_Glenn" <glenn at ervin.email>
>> Cc: <speakup at linux-speakup.org>; "Milan Zamazal" <pdm at zamazal.org>;
>> <Blinux-list at redhat.com>
>> Sent: Saturday, August 13, 2022 1:47 PM
>> Subject: Re: "Accessibility in Fedora Workstation" (fwd)
>>
>>
>> Well technically freedom scientific does not exist any longer, being
>> bought
>> by another company.
>> Still, I can respect why they, or nvda have not created their tools for
>> Linux.
>> That is because as I understand it, Linux is quite like clay. You can
>> mold a distribution into almost anything. there are various
>> personifications of the system, all sorts of ways and changes and options
>> for creativity.
>> however adaptive tools are often extensions of physical characteristics,
>> hands, eyes, ears, brains, combinations of these.
>> To build solid assistive tools one must have a solid foundation as it
>> were. that is part of why there have needed to be so few Apple efforts
>> at
>> inclusion, they created with, and then created in-house adaptive tools
>> for various populations that were built into the system.
>> Although Microsoft did not bother until much later, in theory at least,
>> the
>> consistency of windows is what makes it possible for freedom or the former
>> gw micro or nvda to create something that can in theory work.
>> Floor for the furniture is somewhat solid.
>> Just my thoughts,
>>
>>
>>
>> On Sat, 13 Aug 2022, K0LNY_Glenn wrote:
>>
>>> I would like to see Freedom Scientific make a Jaws For Linux.
>>> JFL
>>> I'd certainly pay the yearly rental fee for it, and it would bring many
>>> more
>>> users into Linux.
>>> FS could, with its resources, possibly make it more robust than Orca.
>>>
>>> Glenn
>>> ----- Original Message -----
>>> From: "Milan Zamazal" <pdm at zamazal.org>
>>> To: <speakup at linux-speakup.org>
>>> Cc: <Blinux-list at redhat.com>
>>> Sent: Saturday, August 13, 2022 12:08 PM
>>> Subject: Re: "Accessibility in Fedora Workstation" (fwd)
>>>
>>>
>>>>>>>> "KL" == Karen Lewellen <klewellen at shellworld.net> writes:
>>>
>>> KL> What bothers me most are his lack of actual qualifications, and
>>> KL> absolute dismissal of what he has not experienced..as if he
>>> KL> defines Linux usage for everyone. That attitude is dangerous,
>>> KL> because he is educating those outside of the accessibility
>>> KL> experiences, who will believe his ignorance is factual. he has
>>> KL> to be expert, it is his job.
>>>
>>> Hi Karen,
>>>
>>> I know Lukas personally and I admire his skills and qualifications. I
>>> also know first hand that he is open to constructive feedback and I
>>> believe he?d be happy to be corrected about possible technical
>>> inaccuracies in the interview. It may be also a good opportunity to
>>> find out what?s possibly missing in making anybody better informed.
>>>
>>> As for ?absolute dismissal of what he has not experienced?, what
>>> reasonable free software alternatives to a less or more standard desktop
>>> with Orca and a software synthesizer can you see for a common blind user
>>> who needs to use a fully working web browser, to read and process text
>>> documents, to be compatible with other computer users, etc.?
>>>
>>> And let?s be realistic. We celebrate every single developer hired to
>>> improve accessibility. This tells something about the state of the
>>> matters. We cannot expect that a single person will fix all the kinds
>>> of accessibility problems in all the environments. Lukas works at his
>>> job focusing on certain areas currently seen there as urgent ones and I
>>> appreciate this opportunity. Anybody else seeing a need to work on
>>> other areas is welcome to contribute to whatever sees fit, as I do.
>>>
>>> Regards,
>>> Milan
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>
>>
>
>
^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 78+ messages in thread
* "Accessibility in Fedora Workstation" (fwd)
[not found] ` <87o7wnq59r.fsf@zamazal.org>
@ ` blinux-list
[not found] ` <Pine.LNX.4.64.2208131900060.1258388@server2.shellworld.net>
1 sibling, 0 replies; 78+ messages in thread
From: blinux-list @ UTC (permalink / raw)
And as I said from the outset, I am far more concerned with how this
article makes accessibility, and Red Hat commitment to accessibility
appear to the public.
A claim to having authority, when stating one knows nothing about how
access can be provided to various populations equally deserving is
concerning.
even in the article comments an individual outlined a need, that they did
not anticipate being met because Fedora was creating a "blindness"
program.
If your associate leads with stated limits, yet does not indicate he
plans to address them, inclusion on this platform for all who seek it
seems far from likely.
I do agree on the forum though. Had comment snot been closed by the time I
got the article, and I been in a position to do so, I might have raised
them on the spot.
On Sat, 13 Aug 2022, Milan Zamazal wrote:
>>>>>> "KL" == Karen Lewellen <klewellen at shellworld.net> writes:
>
> KL> may I ask from where he obtained his software engineering
> KL> degree? Studied computer science? Perhaps disability studies?
> KL> there are certainly scores of disabled individuals with these
> KL> various levels of qualification..even who are Linux users. The
> KL> interview did not document a single one, outside of his
> KL> experiencing blindness..which is not going to insure he creates
> KL> an accessible platform for fedora since access refers to several
> KL> populations. and he states he knows nothing about those.
>
> I have already said regarding this what I felt was needed and I don?t
> find appropriate continuing that discussion here. I?d suggest focusing
> on how to improve free software accessibility instead.
>
> If anybody cares about Fedora accessibility, there is always opportunity
> to help by providing fixes to reported bugs, giving technical advice or
> filing bugs on not yet reported issues. All of these is needed, it?s
> sometimes difficult to move on with some issues and to get any help.
> OTOH trying to demotivate people who work on accessibility is certainly
> not helpful.
>
> Regards,
> Milan
>
> KL> On Sat, 13 Aug 2022, Milan Zamazal wrote:
>
> >>>>>>> "KL" == Karen Lewellen <klewellen at shellworld.net> writes:
> >>
> KL> What bothers me most are his lack of actual qualifications, and
> KL> absolute dismissal of what he has not experienced..as if he
> KL> defines Linux usage for everyone. That attitude is dangerous,
> KL> because he is educating those outside of the accessibility
> KL> experiences, who will believe his ignorance is factual. he has
> KL> to be expert, it is his job.
> >>
> >> Hi Karen,
> >>
> >> I know Lukas personally and I admire his skills and
> >> qualifications. I also know first hand that he is open to
> >> constructive feedback and I believe he?d be happy to be corrected
> >> about possible technical inaccuracies in the interview. It may
> >> be also a good opportunity to find out what?s possibly missing in
> >> making anybody better informed.
> >>
> >> As for ?absolute dismissal of what he has not experienced?, what
> >> reasonable free software alternatives to a less or more standard
> >> desktop with Orca and a software synthesizer can you see for a
> >> common blind user who needs to use a fully working web browser,
> >> to read and process text documents, to be compatible with other
> >> computer users, etc.?
> >>
> >> And let?s be realistic. We celebrate every single developer
> >> hired to improve accessibility. This tells something about the
> >> state of the matters. We cannot expect that a single person will
> >> fix all the kinds of accessibility problems in all the
> >> environments. Lukas works at his job focusing on certain areas
> >> currently seen there as urgent ones and I appreciate this
> >> opportunity. Anybody else seeing a need to work on other areas
> >> is welcome to contribute to whatever sees fit, as I do.
> >>
> >> Regards, Milan
> >>
> >>
> >>
>
>
^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 78+ messages in thread
* "Accessibility in Fedora Workstation" (fwd)
[not found] ` <ed4e8bd5-95ae-929f-ef64-fb7fed9d7c80@panix.com>
@ ` blinux-list
0 siblings, 0 replies; 78+ messages in thread
From: blinux-list @ UTC (permalink / raw)
Really? that would be a second sale as last information I had when gw
micro was failing, an umbrella group of companies were managing the
products.
On Sat, 13 Aug 2022, Jude DaShiell wrote:
> Jude DaShiell here, the Wufrug Group I think from Kuwait bought out FS.
> By now, Wufrug Group may have sold FS to another corporation for all I
> know.
>
>
> On Sat, 13 Aug 2022, K0LNY_Glenn wrote:
>
>> Well since Orca seems to work on so many distros, I don't know why FS would
>> not be able to do the same.
>> If Jaws users could switch into Linux, it would be a real game changer, and
>> I think with lots more Blind Linux users, we would start seeing
>> accessibility in Linux not being a second thought.
>> Glenn
>> ----- Original Message -----
>> From: "Karen Lewellen" <klewellen at shellworld.net>
>> To: "K0LNY_Glenn" <glenn at ervin.email>
>> Cc: <speakup at linux-speakup.org>; "Milan Zamazal" <pdm at zamazal.org>;
>> <Blinux-list at redhat.com>
>> Sent: Saturday, August 13, 2022 1:47 PM
>> Subject: Re: "Accessibility in Fedora Workstation" (fwd)
>>
>>
>> Well technically freedom scientific does not exist any longer, being bought
>> by another company.
>> Still, I can respect why they, or nvda have not created their tools for
>> Linux.
>> That is because as I understand it, Linux is quite like clay. You can
>> mold a distribution into almost anything. there are various
>> personifications of the system, all sorts of ways and changes and options
>> for creativity.
>> however adaptive tools are often extensions of physical characteristics,
>> hands, eyes, ears, brains, combinations of these.
>> To build solid assistive tools one must have a solid foundation as it
>> were. that is part of why there have needed to be so few Apple efforts at
>> inclusion, they created with, and then created in-house adaptive tools
>> for various populations that were built into the system.
>> Although Microsoft did not bother until much later, in theory at least, the
>> consistency of windows is what makes it possible for freedom or the former
>> gw micro or nvda to create something that can in theory work.
>> Floor for the furniture is somewhat solid.
>> Just my thoughts,
>>
>>
>>
>> On Sat, 13 Aug 2022, K0LNY_Glenn wrote:
>>
>>> I would like to see Freedom Scientific make a Jaws For Linux.
>>> JFL
>>> I'd certainly pay the yearly rental fee for it, and it would bring many
>>> more
>>> users into Linux.
>>> FS could, with its resources, possibly make it more robust than Orca.
>>>
>>> Glenn
>>> ----- Original Message -----
>>> From: "Milan Zamazal" <pdm at zamazal.org>
>>> To: <speakup at linux-speakup.org>
>>> Cc: <Blinux-list at redhat.com>
>>> Sent: Saturday, August 13, 2022 12:08 PM
>>> Subject: Re: "Accessibility in Fedora Workstation" (fwd)
>>>
>>>
>>>>>>>> "KL" == Karen Lewellen <klewellen at shellworld.net> writes:
>>>
>>> KL> What bothers me most are his lack of actual qualifications, and
>>> KL> absolute dismissal of what he has not experienced..as if he
>>> KL> defines Linux usage for everyone. That attitude is dangerous,
>>> KL> because he is educating those outside of the accessibility
>>> KL> experiences, who will believe his ignorance is factual. he has
>>> KL> to be expert, it is his job.
>>>
>>> Hi Karen,
>>>
>>> I know Lukas personally and I admire his skills and qualifications. I
>>> also know first hand that he is open to constructive feedback and I
>>> believe he?d be happy to be corrected about possible technical
>>> inaccuracies in the interview. It may be also a good opportunity to
>>> find out what?s possibly missing in making anybody better informed.
>>>
>>> As for ?absolute dismissal of what he has not experienced?, what
>>> reasonable free software alternatives to a less or more standard desktop
>>> with Orca and a software synthesizer can you see for a common blind user
>>> who needs to use a fully working web browser, to read and process text
>>> documents, to be compatible with other computer users, etc.?
>>>
>>> And let?s be realistic. We celebrate every single developer hired to
>>> improve accessibility. This tells something about the state of the
>>> matters. We cannot expect that a single person will fix all the kinds
>>> of accessibility problems in all the environments. Lukas works at his
>>> job focusing on certain areas currently seen there as urgent ones and I
>>> appreciate this opportunity. Anybody else seeing a need to work on
>>> other areas is welcome to contribute to whatever sees fit, as I do.
>>>
>>> Regards,
>>> Milan
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>
>>
>>
>
>
^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 78+ messages in thread
* "Accessibility in Fedora Workstation" (fwd)
[not found] ` <Pine.LNX.4.64.2208131618030.1255408@server2.shellworld.net>
@ ` blinux-list
[not found] ` <139f99c7-4d2b-9751-db8c-338eeceb2d4b@panix.com>
[not found] ` <031e01d8af78$d1313930$80ffa8c0@Win7VM>
2 siblings, 0 replies; 78+ messages in thread
From: blinux-list @ UTC (permalink / raw)
nvda came into existence due to the nosebleed pricing of jaws. Apparently
people who worked in an office with jaws couldn't install it on their home
computers in many cases and nvda made it possible for those home computers
to start talking better than narrator would allow in the 2000's.
On Sat, 13 Aug 2022, Karen Lewellen wrote:
> And how often do clients get a choice about their tools?
> Support this with objective documentation, as this is your professional
> industry, if memory serves.
> I recall on more than one occasion being provided with documentation where
> jaws was the only screen reader choice a client was given.
> Know of at least one professional who turned to Linux because they never
> wanted to use Jaws or windows again.
> since rehab holds the money strings for fs, it is up to the counselors to
> prove, with numbers, that it is worth the financial investment for freedom
> scientific.
> My understanding is that nvda came into being because clients wanted more
> choices than Jaws, and counselors were resistant.
>
>
>
> On Sat, 13 Aug 2022, K0LNY_Glenn wrote:
>
> > True enough, but largely, rehab people typically use Windows at work, and
> > probably at home, but they need to cater to the needs of the client.
> > If a client used Linux, I doubt that any rehab counselor would advocate that
> > the client switch to Windows, unless that was needed for a specific job.
> > In Nebraska, we purchased Jaws much more for personal use than we did for
> > work related situations.
> > So if FS made a JFL, and people were using Linux, rehab would indeed
> > purchase a JFL product.
> > Glenn
> > ----- Original Message -----
> > From: "Karen Lewellen" <klewellen at shellworld.net>
> > To: "K0LNY_Glenn" <glenn at ervin.email>
> > Cc: <speakup at linux-speakup.org>; "Milan Zamazal" <pdm at zamazal.org>;
> > <Blinux-list at redhat.com>
> > Sent: Saturday, August 13, 2022 3:01 PM
> > Subject: Re: "Accessibility in Fedora Workstation" (fwd)
> >
> >
> > there was an interesting discussion a month or so back on the blinux list
> > about how long it took completing tasks in the gui as apposed to say
> > command line, the comments were quite informative.
> > Still, fs has never marketed largely to the end user. Instead they market
> > to the American rehab community.
> > how much market research has the rehab community done to support the need
> > for choices?
> > How many rehab counselors support training in Linux?
> > one comment made by the subject of this thread about poor quality speech
> > is a fine one...out of the box Linux has few speech choices. everyone
> > brings their needs to the table there.
> >
> > if you want to get fs to care about Linux, you need to prove there is
> > money for them there, from their main source of income.
> >
> >
> >
> > On Sat, 13 Aug 2022, K0LNY_Glenn wrote:
> >
> >> Well since Orca seems to work on so many distros, I don't know why FS
> >> would
> >> not be able to do the same.
> >> If Jaws users could switch into Linux, it would be a real game changer,
> >> and
> >> I think with lots more Blind Linux users, we would start seeing
> >> accessibility in Linux not being a second thought.
> >> Glenn
> >> ----- Original Message -----
> >> From: "Karen Lewellen" <klewellen at shellworld.net>
> >> To: "K0LNY_Glenn" <glenn at ervin.email>
> >> Cc: <speakup at linux-speakup.org>; "Milan Zamazal" <pdm at zamazal.org>;
> >> <Blinux-list at redhat.com>
> >> Sent: Saturday, August 13, 2022 1:47 PM
> >> Subject: Re: "Accessibility in Fedora Workstation" (fwd)
> >>
> >>
> >> Well technically freedom scientific does not exist any longer, being
> >> bought
> >> by another company.
> >> Still, I can respect why they, or nvda have not created their tools for
> >> Linux.
> >> That is because as I understand it, Linux is quite like clay. You can
> >> mold a distribution into almost anything. there are various
> >> personifications of the system, all sorts of ways and changes and options
> >> for creativity.
> >> however adaptive tools are often extensions of physical characteristics,
> >> hands, eyes, ears, brains, combinations of these.
> >> To build solid assistive tools one must have a solid foundation as it
> >> were. that is part of why there have needed to be so few Apple efforts
> >> at
> >> inclusion, they created with, and then created in-house adaptive tools
> >> for various populations that were built into the system.
> >> Although Microsoft did not bother until much later, in theory at least,
> >> the
> >> consistency of windows is what makes it possible for freedom or the former
> >> gw micro or nvda to create something that can in theory work.
> >> Floor for the furniture is somewhat solid.
> >> Just my thoughts,
> >>
> >>
> >>
> >> On Sat, 13 Aug 2022, K0LNY_Glenn wrote:
> >>
> >>> I would like to see Freedom Scientific make a Jaws For Linux.
> >>> JFL
> >>> I'd certainly pay the yearly rental fee for it, and it would bring many
> >>> more
> >>> users into Linux.
> >>> FS could, with its resources, possibly make it more robust than Orca.
> >>>
> >>> Glenn
> >>> ----- Original Message -----
> >>> From: "Milan Zamazal" <pdm at zamazal.org>
> >>> To: <speakup at linux-speakup.org>
> >>> Cc: <Blinux-list at redhat.com>
> >>> Sent: Saturday, August 13, 2022 12:08 PM
> >>> Subject: Re: "Accessibility in Fedora Workstation" (fwd)
> >>>
> >>>
> >>>>>>>> "KL" == Karen Lewellen <klewellen at shellworld.net> writes:
> >>>
> >>> KL> What bothers me most are his lack of actual qualifications, and
> >>> KL> absolute dismissal of what he has not experienced..as if he
> >>> KL> defines Linux usage for everyone. That attitude is dangerous,
> >>> KL> because he is educating those outside of the accessibility
> >>> KL> experiences, who will believe his ignorance is factual. he has
> >>> KL> to be expert, it is his job.
> >>>
> >>> Hi Karen,
> >>>
> >>> I know Lukas personally and I admire his skills and qualifications. I
> >>> also know first hand that he is open to constructive feedback and I
> >>> believe he?d be happy to be corrected about possible technical
> >>> inaccuracies in the interview. It may be also a good opportunity to
> >>> find out what?s possibly missing in making anybody better informed.
> >>>
> >>> As for ?absolute dismissal of what he has not experienced?, what
> >>> reasonable free software alternatives to a less or more standard desktop
> >>> with Orca and a software synthesizer can you see for a common blind user
> >>> who needs to use a fully working web browser, to read and process text
> >>> documents, to be compatible with other computer users, etc.?
> >>>
> >>> And let?s be realistic. We celebrate every single developer hired to
> >>> improve accessibility. This tells something about the state of the
> >>> matters. We cannot expect that a single person will fix all the kinds
> >>> of accessibility problems in all the environments. Lukas works at his
> >>> job focusing on certain areas currently seen there as urgent ones and I
> >>> appreciate this opportunity. Anybody else seeing a need to work on
> >>> other areas is welcome to contribute to whatever sees fit, as I do.
> >>>
> >>> Regards,
> >>> Milan
> >>>
> >>>
> >>>
> >>>
> >>
> >>
> >
> >
> >
>
^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 78+ messages in thread
* "Accessibility in Fedora Workstation" (fwd)
[not found] ` <031101d8af50$8f3d3fb0$80ffa8c0@Win7VM>
@ ` blinux-list
[not found] ` <Pine.LNX.4.64.2208131618030.1255408@server2.shellworld.net>
` (2 subsequent siblings)
3 siblings, 0 replies; 78+ messages in thread
From: blinux-list @ UTC (permalink / raw)
And how often do clients get a choice about their tools?
Support this with objective documentation, as this is your professional
industry, if memory serves.
I recall on more than one occasion being provided with documentation where
jaws was the only screen reader choice a client was given.
Know of at least one professional who turned to Linux because they never
wanted to use Jaws or windows again.
since rehab holds the money strings for fs, it is up to the counselors to
prove, with numbers, that it is worth the financial investment for
freedom scientific.
My understanding is that nvda came into being because clients wanted more
choices than Jaws, and counselors were resistant.
On Sat, 13 Aug 2022, K0LNY_Glenn wrote:
> True enough, but largely, rehab people typically use Windows at work, and
> probably at home, but they need to cater to the needs of the client.
> If a client used Linux, I doubt that any rehab counselor would advocate that
> the client switch to Windows, unless that was needed for a specific job.
> In Nebraska, we purchased Jaws much more for personal use than we did for
> work related situations.
> So if FS made a JFL, and people were using Linux, rehab would indeed
> purchase a JFL product.
> Glenn
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: "Karen Lewellen" <klewellen at shellworld.net>
> To: "K0LNY_Glenn" <glenn at ervin.email>
> Cc: <speakup at linux-speakup.org>; "Milan Zamazal" <pdm at zamazal.org>;
> <Blinux-list at redhat.com>
> Sent: Saturday, August 13, 2022 3:01 PM
> Subject: Re: "Accessibility in Fedora Workstation" (fwd)
>
>
> there was an interesting discussion a month or so back on the blinux list
> about how long it took completing tasks in the gui as apposed to say
> command line, the comments were quite informative.
> Still, fs has never marketed largely to the end user. Instead they market
> to the American rehab community.
> how much market research has the rehab community done to support the need
> for choices?
> How many rehab counselors support training in Linux?
> one comment made by the subject of this thread about poor quality speech
> is a fine one...out of the box Linux has few speech choices. everyone
> brings their needs to the table there.
>
> if you want to get fs to care about Linux, you need to prove there is
> money for them there, from their main source of income.
>
>
>
> On Sat, 13 Aug 2022, K0LNY_Glenn wrote:
>
>> Well since Orca seems to work on so many distros, I don't know why FS
>> would
>> not be able to do the same.
>> If Jaws users could switch into Linux, it would be a real game changer,
>> and
>> I think with lots more Blind Linux users, we would start seeing
>> accessibility in Linux not being a second thought.
>> Glenn
>> ----- Original Message -----
>> From: "Karen Lewellen" <klewellen at shellworld.net>
>> To: "K0LNY_Glenn" <glenn at ervin.email>
>> Cc: <speakup at linux-speakup.org>; "Milan Zamazal" <pdm at zamazal.org>;
>> <Blinux-list at redhat.com>
>> Sent: Saturday, August 13, 2022 1:47 PM
>> Subject: Re: "Accessibility in Fedora Workstation" (fwd)
>>
>>
>> Well technically freedom scientific does not exist any longer, being
>> bought
>> by another company.
>> Still, I can respect why they, or nvda have not created their tools for
>> Linux.
>> That is because as I understand it, Linux is quite like clay. You can
>> mold a distribution into almost anything. there are various
>> personifications of the system, all sorts of ways and changes and options
>> for creativity.
>> however adaptive tools are often extensions of physical characteristics,
>> hands, eyes, ears, brains, combinations of these.
>> To build solid assistive tools one must have a solid foundation as it
>> were. that is part of why there have needed to be so few Apple efforts
>> at
>> inclusion, they created with, and then created in-house adaptive tools
>> for various populations that were built into the system.
>> Although Microsoft did not bother until much later, in theory at least,
>> the
>> consistency of windows is what makes it possible for freedom or the former
>> gw micro or nvda to create something that can in theory work.
>> Floor for the furniture is somewhat solid.
>> Just my thoughts,
>>
>>
>>
>> On Sat, 13 Aug 2022, K0LNY_Glenn wrote:
>>
>>> I would like to see Freedom Scientific make a Jaws For Linux.
>>> JFL
>>> I'd certainly pay the yearly rental fee for it, and it would bring many
>>> more
>>> users into Linux.
>>> FS could, with its resources, possibly make it more robust than Orca.
>>>
>>> Glenn
>>> ----- Original Message -----
>>> From: "Milan Zamazal" <pdm at zamazal.org>
>>> To: <speakup at linux-speakup.org>
>>> Cc: <Blinux-list at redhat.com>
>>> Sent: Saturday, August 13, 2022 12:08 PM
>>> Subject: Re: "Accessibility in Fedora Workstation" (fwd)
>>>
>>>
>>>>>>>> "KL" == Karen Lewellen <klewellen at shellworld.net> writes:
>>>
>>> KL> What bothers me most are his lack of actual qualifications, and
>>> KL> absolute dismissal of what he has not experienced..as if he
>>> KL> defines Linux usage for everyone. That attitude is dangerous,
>>> KL> because he is educating those outside of the accessibility
>>> KL> experiences, who will believe his ignorance is factual. he has
>>> KL> to be expert, it is his job.
>>>
>>> Hi Karen,
>>>
>>> I know Lukas personally and I admire his skills and qualifications. I
>>> also know first hand that he is open to constructive feedback and I
>>> believe he?d be happy to be corrected about possible technical
>>> inaccuracies in the interview. It may be also a good opportunity to
>>> find out what?s possibly missing in making anybody better informed.
>>>
>>> As for ?absolute dismissal of what he has not experienced?, what
>>> reasonable free software alternatives to a less or more standard desktop
>>> with Orca and a software synthesizer can you see for a common blind user
>>> who needs to use a fully working web browser, to read and process text
>>> documents, to be compatible with other computer users, etc.?
>>>
>>> And let?s be realistic. We celebrate every single developer hired to
>>> improve accessibility. This tells something about the state of the
>>> matters. We cannot expect that a single person will fix all the kinds
>>> of accessibility problems in all the environments. Lukas works at his
>>> job focusing on certain areas currently seen there as urgent ones and I
>>> appreciate this opportunity. Anybody else seeing a need to work on
>>> other areas is welcome to contribute to whatever sees fit, as I do.
>>>
>>> Regards,
>>> Milan
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>
>>
>
>
>
^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 78+ messages in thread
* "Accessibility in Fedora Workstation" (fwd)
[not found] ` <Pine.LNX.4.64.2208131430230.1254020@server2.shellworld.net>
@ ` blinux-list
[not found] ` <87o7wnq59r.fsf@zamazal.org>
1 sibling, 0 replies; 78+ messages in thread
From: blinux-list @ UTC (permalink / raw)
>>>>> "KL" == Karen Lewellen <klewellen at shellworld.net> writes:
KL> may I ask from where he obtained his software engineering
KL> degree? Studied computer science? Perhaps disability studies?
KL> there are certainly scores of disabled individuals with these
KL> various levels of qualification..even who are Linux users. The
KL> interview did not document a single one, outside of his
KL> experiencing blindness..which is not going to insure he creates
KL> an accessible platform for fedora since access refers to several
KL> populations. and he states he knows nothing about those.
I have already said regarding this what I felt was needed and I don?t
find appropriate continuing that discussion here. I?d suggest focusing
on how to improve free software accessibility instead.
If anybody cares about Fedora accessibility, there is always opportunity
to help by providing fixes to reported bugs, giving technical advice or
filing bugs on not yet reported issues. All of these is needed, it?s
sometimes difficult to move on with some issues and to get any help.
OTOH trying to demotivate people who work on accessibility is certainly
not helpful.
Regards,
Milan
KL> On Sat, 13 Aug 2022, Milan Zamazal wrote:
>>>>>>> "KL" == Karen Lewellen <klewellen at shellworld.net> writes:
>>
KL> What bothers me most are his lack of actual qualifications, and
KL> absolute dismissal of what he has not experienced..as if he
KL> defines Linux usage for everyone. That attitude is dangerous,
KL> because he is educating those outside of the accessibility
KL> experiences, who will believe his ignorance is factual. he has
KL> to be expert, it is his job.
>>
>> Hi Karen,
>>
>> I know Lukas personally and I admire his skills and
>> qualifications. I also know first hand that he is open to
>> constructive feedback and I believe he?d be happy to be corrected
>> about possible technical inaccuracies in the interview. It may
>> be also a good opportunity to find out what?s possibly missing in
>> making anybody better informed.
>>
>> As for ?absolute dismissal of what he has not experienced?, what
>> reasonable free software alternatives to a less or more standard
>> desktop with Orca and a software synthesizer can you see for a
>> common blind user who needs to use a fully working web browser,
>> to read and process text documents, to be compatible with other
>> computer users, etc.?
>>
>> And let?s be realistic. We celebrate every single developer
>> hired to improve accessibility. This tells something about the
>> state of the matters. We cannot expect that a single person will
>> fix all the kinds of accessibility problems in all the
>> environments. Lukas works at his job focusing on certain areas
>> currently seen there as urgent ones and I appreciate this
>> opportunity. Anybody else seeing a need to work on other areas
>> is welcome to contribute to whatever sees fit, as I do.
>>
>> Regards, Milan
>>
>>
>>
^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 78+ messages in thread
* "Accessibility in Fedora Workstation" (fwd)
[not found] ` <02fe01d8af46$46cde5e0$80ffa8c0@Win7VM>
` blinux-list
@ ` blinux-list
` blinux-list
[not found] ` <Pine.LNX.4.64.2208131554070.1255408@server2.shellworld.net>
[not found] ` <ed4e8bd5-95ae-929f-ef64-fb7fed9d7c80@panix.com>
3 siblings, 1 reply; 78+ messages in thread
From: blinux-list @ UTC (permalink / raw)
there was an interesting discussion a month or so back on the blinux list
about how long it took completing tasks in the gui as apposed to say
command line, the comments were quite informative.
Still, fs has never marketed largely to the end user. Instead they market
to the American rehab community.
how much market research has the rehab community done to support the need
for choices?
How many rehab counselors support training in Linux?
one comment made by the subject of this thread about poor quality speech
is a fine one...out of the box Linux has few speech choices. everyone
brings their needs to the table there.
if you want to get fs to care about Linux, you need to prove there is
money for them there, from their main source of income.
On Sat, 13 Aug 2022, K0LNY_Glenn wrote:
> Well since Orca seems to work on so many distros, I don't know why FS would
> not be able to do the same.
> If Jaws users could switch into Linux, it would be a real game changer, and
> I think with lots more Blind Linux users, we would start seeing
> accessibility in Linux not being a second thought.
> Glenn
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: "Karen Lewellen" <klewellen at shellworld.net>
> To: "K0LNY_Glenn" <glenn at ervin.email>
> Cc: <speakup at linux-speakup.org>; "Milan Zamazal" <pdm at zamazal.org>;
> <Blinux-list at redhat.com>
> Sent: Saturday, August 13, 2022 1:47 PM
> Subject: Re: "Accessibility in Fedora Workstation" (fwd)
>
>
> Well technically freedom scientific does not exist any longer, being bought
> by another company.
> Still, I can respect why they, or nvda have not created their tools for
> Linux.
> That is because as I understand it, Linux is quite like clay. You can
> mold a distribution into almost anything. there are various
> personifications of the system, all sorts of ways and changes and options
> for creativity.
> however adaptive tools are often extensions of physical characteristics,
> hands, eyes, ears, brains, combinations of these.
> To build solid assistive tools one must have a solid foundation as it
> were. that is part of why there have needed to be so few Apple efforts at
> inclusion, they created with, and then created in-house adaptive tools
> for various populations that were built into the system.
> Although Microsoft did not bother until much later, in theory at least, the
> consistency of windows is what makes it possible for freedom or the former
> gw micro or nvda to create something that can in theory work.
> Floor for the furniture is somewhat solid.
> Just my thoughts,
>
>
>
> On Sat, 13 Aug 2022, K0LNY_Glenn wrote:
>
>> I would like to see Freedom Scientific make a Jaws For Linux.
>> JFL
>> I'd certainly pay the yearly rental fee for it, and it would bring many
>> more
>> users into Linux.
>> FS could, with its resources, possibly make it more robust than Orca.
>>
>> Glenn
>> ----- Original Message -----
>> From: "Milan Zamazal" <pdm at zamazal.org>
>> To: <speakup at linux-speakup.org>
>> Cc: <Blinux-list at redhat.com>
>> Sent: Saturday, August 13, 2022 12:08 PM
>> Subject: Re: "Accessibility in Fedora Workstation" (fwd)
>>
>>
>>>>>>> "KL" == Karen Lewellen <klewellen at shellworld.net> writes:
>>
>> KL> What bothers me most are his lack of actual qualifications, and
>> KL> absolute dismissal of what he has not experienced..as if he
>> KL> defines Linux usage for everyone. That attitude is dangerous,
>> KL> because he is educating those outside of the accessibility
>> KL> experiences, who will believe his ignorance is factual. he has
>> KL> to be expert, it is his job.
>>
>> Hi Karen,
>>
>> I know Lukas personally and I admire his skills and qualifications. I
>> also know first hand that he is open to constructive feedback and I
>> believe he?d be happy to be corrected about possible technical
>> inaccuracies in the interview. It may be also a good opportunity to
>> find out what?s possibly missing in making anybody better informed.
>>
>> As for ?absolute dismissal of what he has not experienced?, what
>> reasonable free software alternatives to a less or more standard desktop
>> with Orca and a software synthesizer can you see for a common blind user
>> who needs to use a fully working web browser, to read and process text
>> documents, to be compatible with other computer users, etc.?
>>
>> And let?s be realistic. We celebrate every single developer hired to
>> improve accessibility. This tells something about the state of the
>> matters. We cannot expect that a single person will fix all the kinds
>> of accessibility problems in all the environments. Lukas works at his
>> job focusing on certain areas currently seen there as urgent ones and I
>> appreciate this opportunity. Anybody else seeing a need to work on
>> other areas is welcome to contribute to whatever sees fit, as I do.
>>
>> Regards,
>> Milan
>>
>>
>>
>>
>
>
^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 78+ messages in thread
* "Accessibility in Fedora Workstation" (fwd)
[not found] ` <02fe01d8af46$46cde5e0$80ffa8c0@Win7VM>
@ ` blinux-list
` blinux-list
` (2 subsequent siblings)
3 siblings, 0 replies; 78+ messages in thread
From: blinux-list @ UTC (permalink / raw)
Jude DaShiell here, the Wufrug Group I think from Kuwait bought out FS.
By now, Wufrug Group may have sold FS to another corporation for all I
know.
On Sat, 13 Aug 2022, K0LNY_Glenn wrote:
> Well since Orca seems to work on so many distros, I don't know why FS would
> not be able to do the same.
> If Jaws users could switch into Linux, it would be a real game changer, and
> I think with lots more Blind Linux users, we would start seeing
> accessibility in Linux not being a second thought.
> Glenn
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: "Karen Lewellen" <klewellen at shellworld.net>
> To: "K0LNY_Glenn" <glenn at ervin.email>
> Cc: <speakup at linux-speakup.org>; "Milan Zamazal" <pdm at zamazal.org>;
> <Blinux-list at redhat.com>
> Sent: Saturday, August 13, 2022 1:47 PM
> Subject: Re: "Accessibility in Fedora Workstation" (fwd)
>
>
> Well technically freedom scientific does not exist any longer, being bought
> by another company.
> Still, I can respect why they, or nvda have not created their tools for
> Linux.
> That is because as I understand it, Linux is quite like clay. You can
> mold a distribution into almost anything. there are various
> personifications of the system, all sorts of ways and changes and options
> for creativity.
> however adaptive tools are often extensions of physical characteristics,
> hands, eyes, ears, brains, combinations of these.
> To build solid assistive tools one must have a solid foundation as it
> were. that is part of why there have needed to be so few Apple efforts at
> inclusion, they created with, and then created in-house adaptive tools
> for various populations that were built into the system.
> Although Microsoft did not bother until much later, in theory at least, the
> consistency of windows is what makes it possible for freedom or the former
> gw micro or nvda to create something that can in theory work.
> Floor for the furniture is somewhat solid.
> Just my thoughts,
>
>
>
> On Sat, 13 Aug 2022, K0LNY_Glenn wrote:
>
> > I would like to see Freedom Scientific make a Jaws For Linux.
> > JFL
> > I'd certainly pay the yearly rental fee for it, and it would bring many
> > more
> > users into Linux.
> > FS could, with its resources, possibly make it more robust than Orca.
> >
> > Glenn
> > ----- Original Message -----
> > From: "Milan Zamazal" <pdm at zamazal.org>
> > To: <speakup at linux-speakup.org>
> > Cc: <Blinux-list at redhat.com>
> > Sent: Saturday, August 13, 2022 12:08 PM
> > Subject: Re: "Accessibility in Fedora Workstation" (fwd)
> >
> >
> >>>>>> "KL" == Karen Lewellen <klewellen at shellworld.net> writes:
> >
> > KL> What bothers me most are his lack of actual qualifications, and
> > KL> absolute dismissal of what he has not experienced..as if he
> > KL> defines Linux usage for everyone. That attitude is dangerous,
> > KL> because he is educating those outside of the accessibility
> > KL> experiences, who will believe his ignorance is factual. he has
> > KL> to be expert, it is his job.
> >
> > Hi Karen,
> >
> > I know Lukas personally and I admire his skills and qualifications. I
> > also know first hand that he is open to constructive feedback and I
> > believe he?d be happy to be corrected about possible technical
> > inaccuracies in the interview. It may be also a good opportunity to
> > find out what?s possibly missing in making anybody better informed.
> >
> > As for ?absolute dismissal of what he has not experienced?, what
> > reasonable free software alternatives to a less or more standard desktop
> > with Orca and a software synthesizer can you see for a common blind user
> > who needs to use a fully working web browser, to read and process text
> > documents, to be compatible with other computer users, etc.?
> >
> > And let?s be realistic. We celebrate every single developer hired to
> > improve accessibility. This tells something about the state of the
> > matters. We cannot expect that a single person will fix all the kinds
> > of accessibility problems in all the environments. Lukas works at his
> > job focusing on certain areas currently seen there as urgent ones and I
> > appreciate this opportunity. Anybody else seeing a need to work on
> > other areas is welcome to contribute to whatever sees fit, as I do.
> >
> > Regards,
> > Milan
> >
> >
> >
> >
>
>
>
^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 78+ messages in thread
* "Accessibility in Fedora Workstation" (fwd)
[not found] ` <02e001d8af3c$0d4cdfb0$80ffa8c0@Win7VM>
` blinux-list
@ ` blinux-list
[not found] ` <Pine.LNX.4.64.2208131437260.1254020@server2.shellworld.net>
2 siblings, 0 replies; 78+ messages in thread
From: blinux-list @ UTC (permalink / raw)
Well technically freedom scientific does not exist any longer, being bought
by another company.
Still, I can respect why they, or nvda have not created their tools for
Linux.
That is because as I understand it, Linux is quite like clay. You can
mold a distribution into almost anything. there are various
personifications of the system, all sorts of ways and changes and options
for creativity.
however adaptive tools are often extensions of physical characteristics,
hands, eyes, ears, brains, combinations of these.
To build solid assistive tools one must have a solid foundation as it
were. that is part of why there have needed to be so few Apple efforts at
inclusion, they created with, and then created in-house adaptive tools
for various populations that were built into the system.
Although Microsoft did not bother until much later, in theory at least, the
consistency of windows is what makes it possible for freedom or the former
gw micro or nvda to create something that can in theory work.
Floor for the furniture is somewhat solid.
Just my thoughts,
On Sat, 13 Aug 2022, K0LNY_Glenn wrote:
> I would like to see Freedom Scientific make a Jaws For Linux.
> JFL
> I'd certainly pay the yearly rental fee for it, and it would bring many more
> users into Linux.
> FS could, with its resources, possibly make it more robust than Orca.
>
> Glenn
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: "Milan Zamazal" <pdm at zamazal.org>
> To: <speakup at linux-speakup.org>
> Cc: <Blinux-list at redhat.com>
> Sent: Saturday, August 13, 2022 12:08 PM
> Subject: Re: "Accessibility in Fedora Workstation" (fwd)
>
>
>>>>>> "KL" == Karen Lewellen <klewellen at shellworld.net> writes:
>
> KL> What bothers me most are his lack of actual qualifications, and
> KL> absolute dismissal of what he has not experienced..as if he
> KL> defines Linux usage for everyone. That attitude is dangerous,
> KL> because he is educating those outside of the accessibility
> KL> experiences, who will believe his ignorance is factual. he has
> KL> to be expert, it is his job.
>
> Hi Karen,
>
> I know Lukas personally and I admire his skills and qualifications. I
> also know first hand that he is open to constructive feedback and I
> believe he?d be happy to be corrected about possible technical
> inaccuracies in the interview. It may be also a good opportunity to
> find out what?s possibly missing in making anybody better informed.
>
> As for ?absolute dismissal of what he has not experienced?, what
> reasonable free software alternatives to a less or more standard desktop
> with Orca and a software synthesizer can you see for a common blind user
> who needs to use a fully working web browser, to read and process text
> documents, to be compatible with other computer users, etc.?
>
> And let?s be realistic. We celebrate every single developer hired to
> improve accessibility. This tells something about the state of the
> matters. We cannot expect that a single person will fix all the kinds
> of accessibility problems in all the environments. Lukas works at his
> job focusing on certain areas currently seen there as urgent ones and I
> appreciate this opportunity. Anybody else seeing a need to work on
> other areas is welcome to contribute to whatever sees fit, as I do.
>
> Regards,
> Milan
>
>
>
>
^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 78+ messages in thread
* "Accessibility in Fedora Workstation" (fwd)
[not found] ` <871qtkrs03.fsf@zamazal.org>
[not found] ` <02e001d8af3c$0d4cdfb0$80ffa8c0@Win7VM>
@ ` blinux-list
[not found] ` <Pine.LNX.4.64.2208131430230.1254020@server2.shellworld.net>
2 siblings, 0 replies; 78+ messages in thread
From: blinux-list @ UTC (permalink / raw)
may I ask from where he obtained his software engineering degree?
Studied computer science? Perhaps disability studies?
there are certainly scores of disabled individuals with these various
levels of
qualification..even who are Linux users.
The interview did not document a single one, outside of his experiencing
blindness..which is not going to insure he creates an accessible platform
for fedora since access refers to several populations. and he states he
knows nothing about those.
On Sat, 13 Aug 2022, Milan Zamazal wrote:
>>>>>> "KL" == Karen Lewellen <klewellen at shellworld.net> writes:
>
> KL> What bothers me most are his lack of actual qualifications, and
> KL> absolute dismissal of what he has not experienced..as if he
> KL> defines Linux usage for everyone. That attitude is dangerous,
> KL> because he is educating those outside of the accessibility
> KL> experiences, who will believe his ignorance is factual. he has
> KL> to be expert, it is his job.
>
> Hi Karen,
>
> I know Lukas personally and I admire his skills and qualifications. I
> also know first hand that he is open to constructive feedback and I
> believe he?d be happy to be corrected about possible technical
> inaccuracies in the interview. It may be also a good opportunity to
> find out what?s possibly missing in making anybody better informed.
>
> As for ?absolute dismissal of what he has not experienced?, what
> reasonable free software alternatives to a less or more standard desktop
> with Orca and a software synthesizer can you see for a common blind user
> who needs to use a fully working web browser, to read and process text
> documents, to be compatible with other computer users, etc.?
>
> And let?s be realistic. We celebrate every single developer hired to
> improve accessibility. This tells something about the state of the
> matters. We cannot expect that a single person will fix all the kinds
> of accessibility problems in all the environments. Lukas works at his
> job focusing on certain areas currently seen there as urgent ones and I
> appreciate this opportunity. Anybody else seeing a need to work on
> other areas is welcome to contribute to whatever sees fit, as I do.
>
> Regards,
> Milan
>
>
>
^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 78+ messages in thread
* "Accessibility in Fedora Workstation" (fwd)
[not found] ` <02e001d8af3c$0d4cdfb0$80ffa8c0@Win7VM>
@ ` blinux-list
` blinux-list
[not found] ` <Pine.LNX.4.64.2208131437260.1254020@server2.shellworld.net>
2 siblings, 0 replies; 78+ messages in thread
From: blinux-list @ UTC (permalink / raw)
Yes Glen, I agree-and-I already asked at least 3times for N V D A for a Linux
version, as it is already written in Python. They said no-and-they explained.
Chime
^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 78+ messages in thread
* "Accessibility in Fedora Workstation" (fwd)
` blinux-list
@ ` blinux-list
` blinux-list
1 sibling, 0 replies; 78+ messages in thread
From: blinux-list @ UTC (permalink / raw)
speakup by default installs to a software synthesizer if one is present
like speechdispatcher.
On Fri, 12 Aug 2022, Linux for blind general discussion wrote:
> there are people using Linux in the console daily who deserve equal access.
> Second, this individual's job is to make this platform accessible...which has
> never meant blindness exclusively.
> Further this individual is no volunteer, he is being paid to have up to date
> information, not just about fedora, but for screen readers he did not even
> reference like Fenial <spelling>
> He is a single individual, That he has not seen a hardware synthesizer, due
> to age does not mean they do not exist.
> Is he correct that speakup default installs to a hardware synthesizer?
> I cannot imagine that being true given the work on the program.
> What bothers me most are his lack of actual qualifications, and absolute
> dismissal of what he has not experienced..as if he defines Linux usage for
> everyone.
> That attitude is dangerous, because he is educating those outside of the
> accessibility experiences, who will believe his ignorance is factual.
> he has to be expert, it is his job.
>
>
>
> On Fri, 12 Aug 2022, Matt Campbell wrote:
>
> > Hi Karen,
> >
> > I carefully read and fact-checked what Lukas wrote about Speakup. He was
> > incorrect to say that Fedora doesn't include the Speakup kernel module; the
> > stock Fedora kernel has included it for a couple of years now. However,
> > Fedora doesn't include espeakup, speechd-up, or the Speakup user-space tools
> > (e.g. speakupconf and talkwith). I also couldn't find up-to-date
> > documentation on how to use Speakup with Fedora, whether during installation
> > or afterward. Such documentation is readily available for Arch Linux, on the
> > Arch wiki. So practically speaking, his contrast between Speakup support in
> > Fedora and Arch is valid. It also doesn't surprise me that a blind person
> > who started using computers as a teenager in 2009 has never used a hardware
> > speech synthesizer, and it's undeniable that these devices are now rarely
> > used. So I don't believe he said anything that could be considered slander.
> > At worst, his knowledge about the status of Speakup in the Fedora kernel
> > configuration was out-of-date, and I'm inclined to let that go, because we
> > can't all be up-to-date about everything, especially when giving
> > off-the-cuff answers during an interview.
> >
> > More importantly, I see no reason to doubt Lukas's qualifications for the
> > job he was hired for, much less to conclude that he's merely a token blind
> > person. His personal open-source projects are available on his GitHub
> > profile <https://github.com/tyrylu?tab=repositories>. Most notably, his
> > feel-the-streets <https://github.com/tyrylu/feel-the-streets> project is an
> > accessible interface to OpenStreetMap. That project's combination of Python
> > and Rust, and its ability to run on both Windows and Linux, demonstrate the
> > tolerance for complexity that programmers have to have to make progress on
> > non-trivial real-world projects. I would want to hire him if I could. His
> > atspi2_utils <https://github.com/tyrylu/atspi2_utils> repository also
> > demonstrates familiarity with AT-SPI, the protocol that enables GUI
> > accessibility on Linux. So he seems well qualified for this job, and
> > obviously he took the initiative to get the job. I'm excited to see a young
> > blind programmer working full-time on Linux accessibility. He could bring
> > some fresh energy to this space that seemingly hasn't been there for a
> > while. I look forward to finding out what he achieves.
> >
> > Matt
> >
>
> _______________________________________________
> Blinux-list mailing list
> Blinux-list at redhat.com
> https://listman.redhat.com/mailman/listinfo/blinux-list
>
>
>
^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 78+ messages in thread
* "Accessibility in Fedora Workstation" (fwd)
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1 sibling, 2 replies; 78+ messages in thread
From: blinux-list @ UTC (permalink / raw)
there are people using Linux in the console daily who deserve equal
access.
Second, this individual's job is to make this platform accessible...which
has never meant blindness exclusively.
Further this individual is no volunteer, he is being paid to have up to date
information, not just about fedora, but for screen readers he did not even
reference like Fenial <spelling>
He is a single individual, That he has not seen a hardware synthesizer, due
to age does not mean they do not exist.
Is he correct that speakup default installs to a hardware synthesizer?
I cannot imagine that being true given the work on the program.
What bothers me most are his lack of actual qualifications, and absolute
dismissal of what he has not experienced..as if he defines Linux usage for
everyone.
That attitude is dangerous, because he is educating those outside of the
accessibility experiences, who will believe his ignorance is factual.
he has to be expert, it is his job.
On Fri, 12 Aug 2022, Matt Campbell wrote:
> Hi Karen,
>
> I carefully read and fact-checked what Lukas wrote about Speakup. He was
> incorrect to say that Fedora doesn't include the Speakup kernel module; the
> stock Fedora kernel has included it for a couple of years now. However,
> Fedora doesn't include espeakup, speechd-up, or the Speakup user-space tools
> (e.g. speakupconf and talkwith). I also couldn't find up-to-date
> documentation on how to use Speakup with Fedora, whether during installation
> or afterward. Such documentation is readily available for Arch Linux, on the
> Arch wiki. So practically speaking, his contrast between Speakup support in
> Fedora and Arch is valid. It also doesn't surprise me that a blind person who
> started using computers as a teenager in 2009 has never used a hardware
> speech synthesizer, and it's undeniable that these devices are now rarely
> used. So I don't believe he said anything that could be considered slander.
> At worst, his knowledge about the status of Speakup in the Fedora kernel
> configuration was out-of-date, and I'm inclined to let that go, because we
> can't all be up-to-date about everything, especially when giving off-the-cuff
> answers during an interview.
>
> More importantly, I see no reason to doubt Lukas's qualifications for the job
> he was hired for, much less to conclude that he's merely a token blind
> person. His personal open-source projects are available on his GitHub profile
> <https://github.com/tyrylu?tab=repositories>. Most notably, his
> feel-the-streets <https://github.com/tyrylu/feel-the-streets> project is an
> accessible interface to OpenStreetMap. That project's combination of Python
> and Rust, and its ability to run on both Windows and Linux, demonstrate the
> tolerance for complexity that programmers have to have to make progress on
> non-trivial real-world projects. I would want to hire him if I could. His
> atspi2_utils <https://github.com/tyrylu/atspi2_utils> repository also
> demonstrates familiarity with AT-SPI, the protocol that enables GUI
> accessibility on Linux. So he seems well qualified for this job, and
> obviously he took the initiative to get the job. I'm excited to see a young
> blind programmer working full-time on Linux accessibility. He could bring
> some fresh energy to this space that seemingly hasn't been there for a while.
> I look forward to finding out what he achieves.
>
> Matt
>
^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 78+ messages in thread
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