From mboxrd@z Thu Jan 1 00:00:00 1970 From: blinux-list at redhat.com (Linux for blind general discussion) Date: Tue, 16 Aug 2022 15:12:03 -0400 Subject: "Accessibility in Fedora Workstation" (fwd) In-Reply-To: References: <1e623296-a020-b22d-52cc-77e3a01c2f61@pobox.com> <871qtkrs03.fsf@zamazal.org> <02e001d8af3c$0d4cdfb0$80ffa8c0@Win7VM> <02fe01d8af46$46cde5e0$80ffa8c0@Win7VM> <031101d8af50$8f3d3fb0$80ffa8c0@Win7VM> <033301d8af87$4227f3f0$80ffa8c0@Win7VM> <049901d8b17d$8869e7e0$80ffa8c0@Win7VM> <04a701d8b196$0d63e190$80ffa8c0@Win7VM> Message-ID: List-Id: I'm on my third stint as an NFB member, and am quite intrigued. Who were the people involved?? Also, for the record, who's writing the message below? I wasn't in NFB at the time of whatever happened.? I'd heard that it was kind of a deal between Freedom Scientific (or whatever it was then) and Microsoft, but I had no specifics. Al On 8/16/22 14:26, Linux for blind general discussion wrote: > Actually, I'd like to know where you got the idea that it's just a > rumor. It is not. I was personally involved at the time, arguing > strenuously against the policy. I can give you names of people at the > NFB who backed the policy if you'd like. > > The NFB's reasoning was that a free screen reader would not be as good > as one you had to pay for. They reasoned that Microsoft had little > motivation to keep on improving their screen reader but it might be > enough to drive Freedom Scientific out of business. As a Linux user, I > felt that reasoning was flawed mainly because I felt free, open > source? screen readers were right around the corner anyway. I believe > I was using Speakup and something called Nupernicus on Linux at the time. > > This is absolutely not a rumor. > > > On 8/16/22 12:31, K0LNY_Glenn wrote: >> That is hear-say, an old rumor that has been recycled countless times. >> Glenn >> ----- Original Message ----- >> From: "John G. Heim" >> To: "K0LNY_Glenn" ; "Butch Bussen" >> ; "Karen Lewellen" >> Cc: ; "Milan Zamazal" ; >> >> Sent: Tuesday, August 16, 2022 11:49 AM >> Subject: Re: "Accessibility in Fedora Workstation" (fwd) >> >> >> Holy cow! Are you aware that the NFB once asked Microsoft to *NOT* >> improve Narrator to the point where it would compete with Jaws? If you >> think the NFB is incapable of forcing choices on people, you are very >> sadly mistaken. >> >> >> >> On 8/16/22 09:36, K0LNY_Glenn wrote: >>> This sort of thing would never happen in Nebraska, or any state >>> where the >>> agency staff is of the NFB philosophy. >>> Say what you want about the NFB, no organization is without its >>> problems, >>> but it is the core philosophy that formed the NFB that knows that >>> society >>> has low expectations of the Blind, and this is why the NFB believes in >>> skills and high expectations. >>> And with that, comes giving respect to the Blind, like the respect of >>> choice. >>> Yeah I know about the information of recent about NFB abuse, but >>> this is >>> organizational issues, unrelated to the philosophy.? In fact, the fact >>> that >>> it has come up demonstrates that the NFB is no different than any other >>> organization in interpersonal staff issues. >>> And choice does not mean training center choices. >>> Choice isn't always an option, just like if you took a vocational >>> course >>> in >>> college, there are things you have to take, so to me, the lack of >>> choice >>> in >>> this regard is different than computer software, where all the choices >>> will >>> reach the same end result. >>> In states where the NFB philosophy is embraced, if a client said I >>> want to >>> use a Mac, or I want Window Eyes, then that is what they would get, no >>> questions asked. >>> They would not have to fight to get it. >>> I simply cannot imagine a counselor saying that someone has to use the >>> software that the counselor wants them to have. >>> When I hear that stuff, I almost cannot believe it, but I know Butch >>> well >>> enough to know he wouldn't make that up. >>> >>> Glenn >>> ----- Original Message ----- >>> From: "Butch Bussen" >>> To: "Karen Lewellen" >>> Cc: "K0LNY_Glenn" ; ; >>> "Milan >>> Zamazal" ; >>> Sent: Tuesday, August 16, 2022 8:18 AM >>> Subject: Re: "Accessibility in Fedora Workstation" (fwd) >>> >>> >>> You are right.? In Nevada, freedom pushed jaws to the rehab people and >>> took them out for steak diners and so forth.? I fought like hell to get >>> them to buy window-eyes. >>> 73 >>> Butch >>> WA0VJR >>> Node 3148 >>> Wallace, ks. >>> >>> >>> On Sun, 14 Aug 2022, Karen Lewellen wrote: >>> >>>> And where do these employers learn about jaws? >>>> In fact, provide if you do not mind an example of how? this works >>>> exactly. >>>> after all, unless I am incorrect, these employers are not personal >>>> Jaws >>>> users, meaning someone they trust continues to sell them on an >>>> expensive >>>> program instead of a largely free one. >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> On Sat, 13 Aug 2022, K0LNY_Glenn wrote: >>>> >>>>> ?? Karen, >>>>> ?? Most employers don't want NVDA, and will only allow Jaws. >>>>> ?? In Nebraska, if an employer said put on whatever works, the >>>>> counselors >>>>> ?? will >>>>> ?? use NVDA, because of the cost of Jaws. >>>>> ?? If some of the clients in a call center already use Jaws, but >>>>> don't >>>>> know >>>>> ?? NVDA, the counselor will use Jaws, because the other clients >>>>> will need >>>>> to >>>>> ?? learn one of the two. >>>>> ?? So it's all choice, but in the workplace, it depends on what the >>>>> employer >>>>> ?? will allow. >>>>> ?? Also, sometimes scripts need to be made, and there are more Jaws >>>>> scripters >>>>> ?? available than there are NVDA add-on writers. >>>>> ?? So this perception that Jaws is forced by rehab, from my 31 >>>>> years in >>>>> the >>>>> ?? business I can say is rubbish. >>>>> ?? Now, if a counselor did not know how to use NVDA, and either >>>>> may be >>>>> ?? chosen, >>>>> ?? the rehab counselor is able to select the one that the >>>>> counselor feels >>>>> is >>>>> ?? best for the student and for the counselor's teaching. >>>>> ?? When it comes to part B moneys, which is used for non-vocational >>>>> ?? purchases, >>>>> ?? where a lot of Jaws purchases come from, it is in the agency's >>>>> best >>>>> ?? interest >>>>> ?? to spend as little as possible, because that doesn't come back >>>>> like VR >>>>> ?? expenditures do. >>>>> ?? Glenn >>>>> >>>>> ?? ----- Original Message ----- >>>>> ?? From: "Karen Lewellen" >>>>> ?? To: "K0LNY_Glenn" >>>>> ?? Cc: ; "Milan Zamazal" >>>>> ; >>>>> ?? >>>>> ?? Sent: Saturday, August 13, 2022 6:15 PM >>>>> ?? Subject: Re: "Accessibility in Fedora Workstation" (fwd) >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> ?? The challenge with that example is that, as one often gets >>>>> reminded, >>>>> the >>>>> ?? rehab systems track record for facilitating? employment for their >>>>> clients >>>>> ?? is quite poor. >>>>> ?? With a high percentage of unemployment among our clients.? Making, >>>>> ?? speaking personally, your buying Jaws for personal use not really >>>>> ?? reflecting how the system would respond to an alternative request. >>>>> ?? Now if someone from organized rehab said, okay freedom >>>>> scientific, we >>>>> are >>>>> ?? creating an employment program where our clients will train in >>>>> Linux, >>>>> ?? needing a solid screen reader solution for the system. We will >>>>> give >>>>> you >>>>> ?? an >>>>> ?? exclusive development contract for s millions to create the tool. >>>>> ?? Fs would likely say where do we sign? >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> ?? On Sat, 13 Aug 2022, K0LNY_Glenn wrote: >>>>> >>>>>> ?? True enough, but largely, rehab people typically use Windows >>>>>> at work, >>>>>> ?? and >>>>>> ?? probably at home, but they need to cater to the needs of the >>>>>> client. >>>>>> ?? If a client used Linux, I doubt that any rehab counselor would >>>>>> advocate >>>>>> ?? that >>>>>> ?? the client switch to Windows, unless that was needed for a >>>>>> specific >>>>>> job. >>>>>> ?? In Nebraska, we purchased Jaws much more for personal use than >>>>>> we did >>>>>> ?? for >>>>>> ?? work related situations. >>>>>> ?? So if FS made a JFL, and people were using Linux, rehab would >>>>>> indeed >>>>>> ?? purchase a JFL product. >>>>>> ?? Glenn >>>>>> ?? ----- Original Message ----- >>>>>> ?? From: "Karen Lewellen" >>>>>> ?? To: "K0LNY_Glenn" >>>>>> ?? Cc: ; "Milan Zamazal" >>>>>> ; >>>>>> ?? >>>>>> ?? Sent: Saturday, August 13, 2022 3:01 PM >>>>>> ?? Subject: Re: "Accessibility in Fedora Workstation" (fwd) >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> ?? there was an interesting discussion a month or so back on the >>>>>> blinux >>>>>> ?? list >>>>>> ?? about how long it took completing tasks in the gui as apposed >>>>>> to say >>>>>> ?? command line,? the comments were quite informative. >>>>>> ?? Still, fs has never marketed largely to the end user. Instead >>>>>> they >>>>>> ?? market >>>>>> ?? to the American rehab community. >>>>>> ?? how much market research has? the rehab community done to >>>>>> support the >>>>>> ?? need >>>>>> ?? for choices? >>>>>> ?? How many rehab counselors support? training in Linux? >>>>>> ?? one comment made by the subject of this thread about poor quality >>>>>> speech >>>>>> ?? is a fine one...out of the box Linux has few speech choices. >>>>>> everyone >>>>>> ?? brings their needs to the table there. >>>>>> >>>>>> ?? if you want to get fs to care about Linux, you? need to prove >>>>>> there >>>>>> is >>>>>> ?? money for? them there, from their main source of income. >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> ?? On Sat, 13 Aug 2022, K0LNY_Glenn wrote: >>>>>> >>>>>>> ?? Well since Orca seems to work on so many distros, I don't >>>>>>> know why >>>>>>> FS >>>>>>> ?? would >>>>>>> ?? not be able to do the same. >>>>>>> ?? If Jaws users could switch into Linux, it would be a real game >>>>>>> ?? changer, >>>>>>> ?? and >>>>>>> ?? I think with lots more Blind Linux users, we would start seeing >>>>>>> ?? accessibility in Linux not being a second thought. >>>>>>> ?? Glenn >>>>>>> ?? ----- Original Message ----- >>>>>>> ?? From: "Karen Lewellen" >>>>>>> ?? To: "K0LNY_Glenn" >>>>>>> ?? Cc: ; "Milan Zamazal" >>>>>>> ; >>>>>>> ?? >>>>>>> ?? Sent: Saturday, August 13, 2022 1:47 PM >>>>>>> ?? Subject: Re: "Accessibility in Fedora Workstation" (fwd) >>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>>> ?? Well technically freedom scientific does not exist any >>>>>>> longer, being >>>>>>> ?? bought >>>>>>> ?? by another company. >>>>>>> ?? Still, I can respect why they, or nvda have not created their >>>>>>> tools >>>>>>> ?? for >>>>>>> ?? Linux. >>>>>>> ?? That is because as I understand it, Linux is? quite like >>>>>>> clay. You >>>>>>> can >>>>>>> ?? mold a distribution into almost anything. there are various >>>>>>> ?? personifications of the system, all sorts of ways and changes >>>>>>> and >>>>>>> ?? options >>>>>>> ?? for creativity. >>>>>>> ?? however adaptive tools are often extensions of physical >>>>>>> ?? characteristics, >>>>>>> ?? hands, eyes, ears, brains, combinations of these. >>>>>>> ?? To build solid assistive tools one must have a solid? >>>>>>> foundation as >>>>>>> it >>>>>>> ?? were.? that is part of why there have needed to be so few Apple >>>>>>> ?? efforts >>>>>>> ?? at >>>>>>> ?? inclusion, they? created? with, and then created in-house >>>>>>> adaptive >>>>>>> ?? tools >>>>>>> ?? for various? populations that were built into the system. >>>>>>> ?? Although Microsoft did not bother until much later, in theory at >>>>>>> ?? least, >>>>>>> ?? the >>>>>>> ?? consistency of windows is what makes it possible for freedom >>>>>>> or the >>>>>>> ?? former >>>>>>> ?? gw? micro or nvda to create something that can in theory? work. >>>>>>> ?? Floor for the furniture is somewhat solid. >>>>>>> ?? Just my thoughts, >>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>>> ?? On Sat, 13 Aug 2022, K0LNY_Glenn wrote: >>>>>>> >>>>>>>> ?? I would like to see Freedom Scientific make a Jaws For Linux. >>>>>>>> ?? JFL >>>>>>>> ?? I'd certainly pay the yearly rental fee for it, and it would >>>>>>>> bring >>>>>>>> ?? many >>>>>>>> ?? more >>>>>>>> ?? users into Linux. >>>>>>>> ?? FS could, with its resources, possibly make it more robust than >>>>>>>> ?? Orca. >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> ?? Glenn >>>>>>>> ?? ----- Original Message ----- >>>>>>>> ?? From: "Milan Zamazal" >>>>>>>> ?? To: >>>>>>>> ?? Cc: >>>>>>>> ?? Sent: Saturday, August 13, 2022 12:08 PM >>>>>>>> ?? Subject: Re: "Accessibility in Fedora Workstation" (fwd) >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>> ?? "KL" == Karen Lewellen >>>>>>>>>>>>> writes: >>>>>>>> KL>? What bothers me most are his lack of actual qualifications, >>>>>>>> and >>>>>>>> KL>? absolute dismissal of what he has not experienced..as if he >>>>>>>> KL>? defines Linux usage for everyone.? That attitude is >>>>>>>> dangerous, >>>>>>>> KL>? because he is educating those outside of the accessibility >>>>>>>> KL>? experiences, who will believe his ignorance is factual.? he >>>>>>>> has >>>>>>>> KL>? to be expert, it is his job. >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> ?? Hi Karen, >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> ?? I know Lukas personally and I admire his skills and >>>>>>>> qualifications. >>>>>>>> ?? I >>>>>>>> ?? also know first hand that he is open to constructive >>>>>>>> feedback and >>>>>>>> I >>>>>>>> ?? believe he??Td be happy to be corrected about possible >>>>>>>> technical >>>>>>>> ?? inaccuracies in the interview.? It may be also a good >>>>>>>> opportunity >>>>>>>> to >>>>>>>> ?? find out what??Ts possibly missing in making anybody better >>>>>>>> ?? informed. >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> ?? As for ??oabsolute dismissal of what he has not experienced???, >>>>>>>> what >>>>>>>> ?? reasonable free software alternatives to a less or more >>>>>>>> standard >>>>>>>> ?? desktop >>>>>>>> ?? with Orca and a software synthesizer can you see for a common >>>>>>>> blind >>>>>>>> ?? user >>>>>>>> ?? who needs to use a fully working web browser, to read and >>>>>>>> process >>>>>>>> ?? text >>>>>>>> ?? documents, to be compatible with other computer users, etc.? >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> ?? And let??Ts be realistic.? We celebrate every single developer >>>>>>>> hired >>>>>>>> ?? to >>>>>>>> ?? improve accessibility.? This tells something about the state of >>>>>>>> the >>>>>>>> ?? matters.? We cannot expect that a single person will fix all >>>>>>>> the >>>>>>>> ?? kinds >>>>>>>> ?? of accessibility problems in all the environments.? Lukas >>>>>>>> works at >>>>>>>> ?? his >>>>>>>> ?? job focusing on certain areas currently seen there as urgent >>>>>>>> ones >>>>>>>> ?? and I >>>>>>>> ?? appreciate this opportunity.? Anybody else seeing a need to >>>>>>>> work >>>>>>>> on >>>>>>>> ?? other areas is welcome to contribute to whatever sees fit, as I >>>>>>>> do. >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> ?? Regards, >>>>>>>> ?? Milan >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> >> > > _______________________________________________ > Blinux-list mailing list > Blinux-list at redhat.com > https://listman.redhat.com/mailman/listinfo/blinux-list