"Accessibility in Fedora Workstation" (fwd)

[blinux-list at redhat.com (Linux for blind general discussion)]

I'm on my third stint as an NFB member, and am quite intrigued. Who were 
the people involved?? Also, for the record, who's writing the message below?


I wasn't in NFB at the time of whatever happened.? I'd heard that it was 
kind of a deal between Freedom Scientific (or whatever it was then) and 
Microsoft, but I had no specifics.


Al


On 8/16/22 14:26, Linux for blind general discussion wrote:
> Actually, I'd like to know where you got the idea that it's just a 
> rumor. It is not. I was personally involved at the time, arguing 
> strenuously against the policy. I can give you names of people at the 
> NFB who backed the policy if you'd like.
>
> The NFB's reasoning was that a free screen reader would not be as good 
> as one you had to pay for. They reasoned that Microsoft had little 
> motivation to keep on improving their screen reader but it might be 
> enough to drive Freedom Scientific out of business. As a Linux user, I 
> felt that reasoning was flawed mainly because I felt free, open 
> source? screen readers were right around the corner anyway. I believe 
> I was using Speakup and something called Nupernicus on Linux at the time.
>
> This is absolutely not a rumor.
>
>
> On 8/16/22 12:31, K0LNY_Glenn wrote:
>> That is hear-say, an old rumor that has been recycled countless times.
>> Glenn
>> ----- Original Message -----
>> From: "John G. Heim" <jheim at wisc.edu>
>> To: "K0LNY_Glenn" <glenn at ervin.email>; "Butch Bussen"
>> <butchb at shellworld.net>; "Karen Lewellen" <klewellen at shellworld.net>
>> Cc: <speakup at linux-speakup.org>; "Milan Zamazal" <pdm at zamazal.org>;
>> <Blinux-list at redhat.com>
>> Sent: Tuesday, August 16, 2022 11:49 AM
>> Subject: Re: "Accessibility in Fedora Workstation" (fwd)
>>
>>
>> Holy cow! Are you aware that the NFB once asked Microsoft to *NOT*
>> improve Narrator to the point where it would compete with Jaws? If you
>> think the NFB is incapable of forcing choices on people, you are very
>> sadly mistaken.
>>
>>
>>
>> On 8/16/22 09:36, K0LNY_Glenn wrote:
>>> This sort of thing would never happen in Nebraska, or any state 
>>> where the
>>> agency staff is of the NFB philosophy.
>>> Say what you want about the NFB, no organization is without its 
>>> problems,
>>> but it is the core philosophy that formed the NFB that knows that 
>>> society
>>> has low expectations of the Blind, and this is why the NFB believes in
>>> skills and high expectations.
>>> And with that, comes giving respect to the Blind, like the respect of
>>> choice.
>>> Yeah I know about the information of recent about NFB abuse, but 
>>> this is
>>> organizational issues, unrelated to the philosophy.? In fact, the fact
>>> that
>>> it has come up demonstrates that the NFB is no different than any other
>>> organization in interpersonal staff issues.
>>> And choice does not mean training center choices.
>>> Choice isn't always an option, just like if you took a vocational 
>>> course
>>> in
>>> college, there are things you have to take, so to me, the lack of 
>>> choice
>>> in
>>> this regard is different than computer software, where all the choices
>>> will
>>> reach the same end result.
>>> In states where the NFB philosophy is embraced, if a client said I 
>>> want to
>>> use a Mac, or I want Window Eyes, then that is what they would get, no
>>> questions asked.
>>> They would not have to fight to get it.
>>> I simply cannot imagine a counselor saying that someone has to use the
>>> software that the counselor wants them to have.
>>> When I hear that stuff, I almost cannot believe it, but I know Butch 
>>> well
>>> enough to know he wouldn't make that up.
>>>
>>> Glenn
>>> ----- Original Message -----
>>> From: "Butch Bussen" <butchb at shellworld.net>
>>> To: "Karen Lewellen" <klewellen at shellworld.net>
>>> Cc: "K0LNY_Glenn" <glenn at ervin.email>; <speakup at linux-speakup.org>; 
>>> "Milan
>>> Zamazal" <pdm at zamazal.org>; <Blinux-list at redhat.com>
>>> Sent: Tuesday, August 16, 2022 8:18 AM
>>> Subject: Re: "Accessibility in Fedora Workstation" (fwd)
>>>
>>>
>>> You are right.? In Nevada, freedom pushed jaws to the rehab people and
>>> took them out for steak diners and so forth.? I fought like hell to get
>>> them to buy window-eyes.
>>> 73
>>> Butch
>>> WA0VJR
>>> Node 3148
>>> Wallace, ks.
>>>
>>>
>>> On Sun, 14 Aug 2022, Karen Lewellen wrote:
>>>
>>>> And where do these employers learn about jaws?
>>>> In fact, provide if you do not mind an example of how? this works
>>>> exactly.
>>>> after all, unless I am incorrect, these employers are not personal 
>>>> Jaws
>>>> users, meaning someone they trust continues to sell them on an 
>>>> expensive
>>>> program instead of a largely free one.
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> On Sat, 13 Aug 2022, K0LNY_Glenn wrote:
>>>>
>>>>> ?? Karen,
>>>>> ?? Most employers don't want NVDA, and will only allow Jaws.
>>>>> ?? In Nebraska, if an employer said put on whatever works, the 
>>>>> counselors
>>>>> ?? will
>>>>> ?? use NVDA, because of the cost of Jaws.
>>>>> ?? If some of the clients in a call center already use Jaws, but 
>>>>> don't
>>>>> know
>>>>> ?? NVDA, the counselor will use Jaws, because the other clients 
>>>>> will need
>>>>> to
>>>>> ?? learn one of the two.
>>>>> ?? So it's all choice, but in the workplace, it depends on what the
>>>>> employer
>>>>> ?? will allow.
>>>>> ?? Also, sometimes scripts need to be made, and there are more Jaws
>>>>> scripters
>>>>> ?? available than there are NVDA add-on writers.
>>>>> ?? So this perception that Jaws is forced by rehab, from my 31 
>>>>> years in
>>>>> the
>>>>> ?? business I can say is rubbish.
>>>>> ?? Now, if a counselor did not know how to use NVDA, and either 
>>>>> may be
>>>>> ?? chosen,
>>>>> ?? the rehab counselor is able to select the one that the 
>>>>> counselor feels
>>>>> is
>>>>> ?? best for the student and for the counselor's teaching.
>>>>> ?? When it comes to part B moneys, which is used for non-vocational
>>>>> ?? purchases,
>>>>> ?? where a lot of Jaws purchases come from, it is in the agency's 
>>>>> best
>>>>> ?? interest
>>>>> ?? to spend as little as possible, because that doesn't come back 
>>>>> like VR
>>>>> ?? expenditures do.
>>>>> ?? Glenn
>>>>>
>>>>> ?? ----- Original Message -----
>>>>> ?? From: "Karen Lewellen" <klewellen at shellworld.net>
>>>>> ?? To: "K0LNY_Glenn" <glenn at ervin.email>
>>>>> ?? Cc: <speakup at linux-speakup.org>; "Milan Zamazal" 
>>>>> <pdm at zamazal.org>;
>>>>> ?? <Blinux-list at redhat.com>
>>>>> ?? Sent: Saturday, August 13, 2022 6:15 PM
>>>>> ?? Subject: Re: "Accessibility in Fedora Workstation" (fwd)
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> ?? The challenge with that example is that, as one often gets 
>>>>> reminded,
>>>>> the
>>>>> ?? rehab systems track record for facilitating? employment for their
>>>>> clients
>>>>> ?? is quite poor.
>>>>> ?? With a high percentage of unemployment among our clients.? Making,
>>>>> ?? speaking personally, your buying Jaws for personal use not really
>>>>> ?? reflecting how the system would respond to an alternative request.
>>>>> ?? Now if someone from organized rehab said, okay freedom 
>>>>> scientific, we
>>>>> are
>>>>> ?? creating an employment program where our clients will train in 
>>>>> Linux,
>>>>> ?? needing a solid screen reader solution for the system. We will 
>>>>> give
>>>>> you
>>>>> ?? an
>>>>> ?? exclusive development contract for s millions to create the tool.
>>>>> ?? Fs would likely say where do we sign?
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> ?? On Sat, 13 Aug 2022, K0LNY_Glenn wrote:
>>>>>
>>>>>> ?? True enough, but largely, rehab people typically use Windows 
>>>>>> at work,
>>>>>> ?? and
>>>>>> ?? probably at home, but they need to cater to the needs of the 
>>>>>> client.
>>>>>> ?? If a client used Linux, I doubt that any rehab counselor would
>>>>>> advocate
>>>>>> ?? that
>>>>>> ?? the client switch to Windows, unless that was needed for a 
>>>>>> specific
>>>>>> job.
>>>>>> ?? In Nebraska, we purchased Jaws much more for personal use than 
>>>>>> we did
>>>>>> ?? for
>>>>>> ?? work related situations.
>>>>>> ?? So if FS made a JFL, and people were using Linux, rehab would 
>>>>>> indeed
>>>>>> ?? purchase a JFL product.
>>>>>> ?? Glenn
>>>>>> ?? ----- Original Message -----
>>>>>> ?? From: "Karen Lewellen" <klewellen at shellworld.net>
>>>>>> ?? To: "K0LNY_Glenn" <glenn at ervin.email>
>>>>>> ?? Cc: <speakup at linux-speakup.org>; "Milan Zamazal" 
>>>>>> <pdm at zamazal.org>;
>>>>>> ?? <Blinux-list at redhat.com>
>>>>>> ?? Sent: Saturday, August 13, 2022 3:01 PM
>>>>>> ?? Subject: Re: "Accessibility in Fedora Workstation" (fwd)
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>> ?? there was an interesting discussion a month or so back on the 
>>>>>> blinux
>>>>>> ?? list
>>>>>> ?? about how long it took completing tasks in the gui as apposed 
>>>>>> to say
>>>>>> ?? command line,? the comments were quite informative.
>>>>>> ?? Still, fs has never marketed largely to the end user. Instead 
>>>>>> they
>>>>>> ?? market
>>>>>> ?? to the American rehab community.
>>>>>> ?? how much market research has? the rehab community done to 
>>>>>> support the
>>>>>> ?? need
>>>>>> ?? for choices?
>>>>>> ?? How many rehab counselors support? training in Linux?
>>>>>> ?? one comment made by the subject of this thread about poor quality
>>>>>> speech
>>>>>> ?? is a fine one...out of the box Linux has few speech choices.
>>>>>> everyone
>>>>>> ?? brings their needs to the table there.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> ?? if you want to get fs to care about Linux, you? need to prove 
>>>>>> there
>>>>>> is
>>>>>> ?? money for? them there, from their main source of income.
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>> ?? On Sat, 13 Aug 2022, K0LNY_Glenn wrote:
>>>>>>
>>>>>>> ?? Well since Orca seems to work on so many distros, I don't 
>>>>>>> know why
>>>>>>> FS
>>>>>>> ?? would
>>>>>>> ?? not be able to do the same.
>>>>>>> ?? If Jaws users could switch into Linux, it would be a real game
>>>>>>> ?? changer,
>>>>>>> ?? and
>>>>>>> ?? I think with lots more Blind Linux users, we would start seeing
>>>>>>> ?? accessibility in Linux not being a second thought.
>>>>>>> ?? Glenn
>>>>>>> ?? ----- Original Message -----
>>>>>>> ?? From: "Karen Lewellen" <klewellen at shellworld.net>
>>>>>>> ?? To: "K0LNY_Glenn" <glenn at ervin.email>
>>>>>>> ?? Cc: <speakup at linux-speakup.org>; "Milan Zamazal" 
>>>>>>> <pdm at zamazal.org>;
>>>>>>> ?? <Blinux-list at redhat.com>
>>>>>>> ?? Sent: Saturday, August 13, 2022 1:47 PM
>>>>>>> ?? Subject: Re: "Accessibility in Fedora Workstation" (fwd)
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> ?? Well technically freedom scientific does not exist any 
>>>>>>> longer, being
>>>>>>> ?? bought
>>>>>>> ?? by another company.
>>>>>>> ?? Still, I can respect why they, or nvda have not created their 
>>>>>>> tools
>>>>>>> ?? for
>>>>>>> ?? Linux.
>>>>>>> ?? That is because as I understand it, Linux is? quite like 
>>>>>>> clay. You
>>>>>>> can
>>>>>>> ?? mold a distribution into almost anything. there are various
>>>>>>> ?? personifications of the system, all sorts of ways and changes 
>>>>>>> and
>>>>>>> ?? options
>>>>>>> ?? for creativity.
>>>>>>> ?? however adaptive tools are often extensions of physical
>>>>>>> ?? characteristics,
>>>>>>> ?? hands, eyes, ears, brains, combinations of these.
>>>>>>> ?? To build solid assistive tools one must have a solid? 
>>>>>>> foundation as
>>>>>>> it
>>>>>>> ?? were.? that is part of why there have needed to be so few Apple
>>>>>>> ?? efforts
>>>>>>> ?? at
>>>>>>> ?? inclusion, they? created? with, and then created in-house 
>>>>>>> adaptive
>>>>>>> ?? tools
>>>>>>> ?? for various? populations that were built into the system.
>>>>>>> ?? Although Microsoft did not bother until much later, in theory at
>>>>>>> ?? least,
>>>>>>> ?? the
>>>>>>> ?? consistency of windows is what makes it possible for freedom 
>>>>>>> or the
>>>>>>> ?? former
>>>>>>> ?? gw? micro or nvda to create something that can in theory? work.
>>>>>>> ?? Floor for the furniture is somewhat solid.
>>>>>>> ?? Just my thoughts,
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> ?? On Sat, 13 Aug 2022, K0LNY_Glenn wrote:
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> ?? I would like to see Freedom Scientific make a Jaws For Linux.
>>>>>>>> ?? JFL
>>>>>>>> ?? I'd certainly pay the yearly rental fee for it, and it would 
>>>>>>>> bring
>>>>>>>> ?? many
>>>>>>>> ?? more
>>>>>>>> ?? users into Linux.
>>>>>>>> ?? FS could, with its resources, possibly make it more robust than
>>>>>>>> ?? Orca.
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> ?? Glenn
>>>>>>>> ?? ----- Original Message -----
>>>>>>>> ?? From: "Milan Zamazal" <pdm at zamazal.org>
>>>>>>>> ?? To: <speakup at linux-speakup.org>
>>>>>>>> ?? Cc: <Blinux-list at redhat.com>
>>>>>>>> ?? Sent: Saturday, August 13, 2022 12:08 PM
>>>>>>>> ?? Subject: Re: "Accessibility in Fedora Workstation" (fwd)
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>> ?? "KL" == Karen Lewellen <klewellen at shellworld.net>
>>>>>>>>>>>>> writes:
>>>>>>>> KL>? What bothers me most are his lack of actual qualifications,
>>>>>>>> and
>>>>>>>> KL>? absolute dismissal of what he has not experienced..as if he
>>>>>>>> KL>? defines Linux usage for everyone.? That attitude is 
>>>>>>>> dangerous,
>>>>>>>> KL>? because he is educating those outside of the accessibility
>>>>>>>> KL>? experiences, who will believe his ignorance is factual.? he
>>>>>>>> has
>>>>>>>> KL>? to be expert, it is his job.
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> ?? Hi Karen,
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> ?? I know Lukas personally and I admire his skills and
>>>>>>>> qualifications.
>>>>>>>> ?? I
>>>>>>>> ?? also know first hand that he is open to constructive 
>>>>>>>> feedback and
>>>>>>>> I
>>>>>>>> ?? believe he??Td be happy to be corrected about possible 
>>>>>>>> technical
>>>>>>>> ?? inaccuracies in the interview.? It may be also a good 
>>>>>>>> opportunity
>>>>>>>> to
>>>>>>>> ?? find out what??Ts possibly missing in making anybody better
>>>>>>>> ?? informed.
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> ?? As for ??oabsolute dismissal of what he has not experienced???,
>>>>>>>> what
>>>>>>>> ?? reasonable free software alternatives to a less or more 
>>>>>>>> standard
>>>>>>>> ?? desktop
>>>>>>>> ?? with Orca and a software synthesizer can you see for a common
>>>>>>>> blind
>>>>>>>> ?? user
>>>>>>>> ?? who needs to use a fully working web browser, to read and 
>>>>>>>> process
>>>>>>>> ?? text
>>>>>>>> ?? documents, to be compatible with other computer users, etc.?
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> ?? And let??Ts be realistic.? We celebrate every single developer
>>>>>>>> hired
>>>>>>>> ?? to
>>>>>>>> ?? improve accessibility.? This tells something about the state of
>>>>>>>> the
>>>>>>>> ?? matters.? We cannot expect that a single person will fix all 
>>>>>>>> the
>>>>>>>> ?? kinds
>>>>>>>> ?? of accessibility problems in all the environments.? Lukas 
>>>>>>>> works at
>>>>>>>> ?? his
>>>>>>>> ?? job focusing on certain areas currently seen there as urgent 
>>>>>>>> ones
>>>>>>>> ?? and I
>>>>>>>> ?? appreciate this opportunity.? Anybody else seeing a need to 
>>>>>>>> work
>>>>>>>> on
>>>>>>>> ?? other areas is welcome to contribute to whatever sees fit, as I
>>>>>>>> do.
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> ?? Regards,
>>>>>>>> ?? Milan
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>
>>
>
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