From mboxrd@z Thu Jan 1 00:00:00 1970 Return-Path: Received: from int-mx1.corp.redhat.com (int-mx1.corp.redhat.com [172.16.52.254]) by listman.redhat.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 4565D3F003 for ; Fri, 4 Oct 2002 21:14:15 -0400 (EDT) Received: (from mail@localhost) by int-mx1.corp.redhat.com (8.11.6/8.11.6) id g951EFe08423 for blinux-list@listman.redhat.com; Fri, 4 Oct 2002 21:14:15 -0400 Received: from mx1.redhat.com (mx1.redhat.com [172.16.48.31]) by int-mx1.corp.redhat.com (8.11.6/8.11.6) with SMTP id g951EEf08419 for ; Fri, 4 Oct 2002 21:14:14 -0400 Received: from mx1.onewest.net (root@mx1.onewest.net [199.104.81.32]) by mx1.redhat.com (8.11.6/8.11.6) with SMTP id g950sxX23010 for ; Fri, 4 Oct 2002 20:54:59 -0400 Received: from id07.onewest.net ([199.104.81.25] helo=idscc07.onewest.net ident=mail) by mx1.onewest.net with esmtp (Exim 3.36 #1 (Debian)) id 17xdWE-0001Zi-00 for ; Fri, 04 Oct 2002 19:14:10 -0600 Received: from du128.204.onewest.net ([65.19.204.128] helo=rupin.localnet) by idscc07.onewest.net with esmtp (Exim 3.35 #1 (Debian)) id 17xdW9-0002pL-00 for ; Fri, 04 Oct 2002 19:14:07 -0600 Received: from localhost (lcr@localhost) by rupin.localnet (8.11.6/8.11.6) with ESMTP id g950Zpo16166 for ; Fri, 4 Oct 2002 18:35:51 -0600 Date: Fri, 4 Oct 2002 18:35:51 -0600 (MDT) From: "L. C. Robinson" To: blinux-list@redhat.com Subject: Re: RedHat and accessibility In-Reply-To: <20021004044903.GA14150@dalek> Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: MULTIPART/MIXED; BOUNDARY="-1463811584-1367068944-1033778151=:968" X-Loop: blinux-list@redhat.com Sender: blinux-list-admin@redhat.com Errors-To: blinux-list-admin@redhat.com X-BeenThere: blinux-list@redhat.com X-Mailman-Version: 2.0.1 Precedence: bulk Reply-To: blinux-list@redhat.com X-Reply-To: no_spam+munged_lcr@onewest.net.invalid List-Help: List-Post: List-Subscribe: , List-Id: Linux for blind general discussion List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: This message is in MIME format. The first part should be readable text, while the remaining parts are likely unreadable without MIME-aware tools. Send mail to mime@docserver.cac.washington.edu for more info. ---1463811584-1367068944-1033778151=:968 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII On Fri, 4 Oct 2002, Buddy Brannan wrote: > On Thu, Oct 03, 2002 at 09:30:36PM -0700, > Darrell Shandrow wrote: > ... EGADS! Two evil things in one go!!!! Don't they > have their text in Perfectly within their rights. Remember that free software wasn't built for software vendors to make money, but for the end users, and wasn't meant to provide any kind of business model. But supporting and training people costs time and money, and those who do so on a more than casual basis deserve whatever return the free market will deliver: such businesses are our allies. As you will see below, and in my reposted message in the attachment, Red Hat actually deserves a pat on the back for unusually ethical behavior, unlike certain other well known vendors.... > ... I'd say Jason's case was about as > unreasonable as it gets. ... > > But, in Jason's case, it seems RedHat was > > actually trying to take steps to actively > > interfere with a blind person's progress in > > his life as a human being, let alone a > > qualified Linux tech. I can certainly see how such things would seem unfair, but the issue is really something else entirely, and the solution lies in an entirely different conception of the problem. This issue has been discussed before, and rather than cause those who have already read my longish post on it to wade through it again, I have reposted it as an attachment. The rest of my comments will assume an understanding of it's contents. > > Hmmm, how to effectively teach RedHat a useful > > lesson in access that will result in positive > > change? Let us rather praise them for being ethical, and work "out of this box" with Red Hat for a sensible work around, in terms of appropriate disclaimers, and some kind of letter or award of a properly labeled (as subjective) evaluation of alternative competency, and a publicly posted explanation of the nature of the process, with it's limitations for disabled people, in non-technical terms employers can understand clearly. Handled properly, this is an opportunity for Red Hat to advocate the legitimacy of their testing process, even while plugging their support of disabled people -- a win win proposition. > > ... was a pretty aggregious example to me. > > Even Microsoft is better than RedHat here!!! The grossly unethical nature of that other corporation's marketing of their expensive and fairly worthless certification has been discussed to death in other forums (do net search for details). > > Hmmm, one idea... Maybe we should start with > > RedHat corporate management staff? I imagine that they would be happy to work with a reasonable approach (one that does not involve demands for unethical representations beyond the reasonable limitations of legitimate testing technology). Note that the problem is a technical one, and that it cannot be solved by ideology or advocacy; real world statistical limitations cannot be ethically ignored. You wouldn't want them to cheapen their product with phony claims that knowledgable people would spot, thereby making your alternative certification, however subjective, and everyone else's, suspect (remember that an employer is ultimately going to make a subjective evaluation of who to hire -- a lot of this testing and certification stuff is really an interviewer cop-out anyway). Hopefully the present economic situation won't prevent Red Hat from devoting sufficient resources to a work-around: other posts would seem to indicate that they were willing to look at the problem. > > ... in order to explain how RedHat is > > violating open-source principles and acting > > in... Hopefully, with my other attached post, you will be able to see why "Open source principles" have absolutely nothing to do with this issue. But again, based on other posts, we have more than hints that Red Hat would be highly amenable to addressing this problem in a reasonable way. That way will not, should not, involve giving standard certification for non-standard, modified tests. LCR -- L. C. Robinson reply to no_spam+munged_lcr@onewest.net.invalid People buy MicroShaft for compatibility, but get incompatibility and instability instead. This is award winning "innovation". Find out how MS holds your data hostage with "The *Lens*"; see "CyberSnare" at http://www.netaction.org/msoft/cybersnare.html ---1463811584-1367068944-1033778151=:968 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII; name=old Content-Transfer-Encoding: BASE64 Content-ID: Content-Description: previous post Re: unethical testing Content-Disposition: attachment; filename=old RnJvbSBsY3JAcnVwaW4ubG9jYWxuZXQgRnJpIE9jdCAgNCAxNjo1MDoxNyAy MDAyDQpEYXRlOiBUaHUsIDE0IEZlYiAyMDAyIDIwOjU5OjQ3IC0wNzAwIChN U1QpDQpGcm9tOiBMLiBDLiBSb2JpbnNvbiA8bGNyQHJ1cGluLmxvY2FsbmV0 Pg0KUmVwbHktVG86IG5vX3NwYW0rbXVuZ2VkX2xjckBvbmV3ZXN0Lm5ldC5p bnZhbGlkDQpUbzogYmxpbnV4LWxpc3RAcmVkaGF0LmNvbQ0KU3ViamVjdDog UmU6IFJIQ0UgY2VydGlmaWNhdGlvbg0KDQpPbiBUaHUsIDE0IEZlYiAyMDAy LCBKYXNvbiBGYXlyZSB3cm90ZToNCg0KPiBJcyBhbnlvbmUgb24gdGhpcyBs aXN0IFJIQ0UgY2VydGlmaWVkPyAgIEFzIHBhcnQgb2YgbXkgam9iLCBJDQo+ IGhhdmUgYmVlbiByZXF1ZXN0ZWQgdG8gb2J0YWluIFJIQ0UgY2VydGlmaWNh dGlvbi4gIEkgYW0gYQ0KPiBsaXR0bGUgY29uY2VybmVkIGFib3V0IHRoZSBh 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