Thanks for the null-modem cable help!

Thanks for the null-modem cable help!

[Jennifer E Jobst]

Thanks to everyone who provided information on the null-modem cable
installs -- you all have been most helpful!  For posterity, here's a
summarization of the suggestions and outcomes:

* Use Speakup instead to install Linux - I've been playing with Speakup
too, and it works great.  I knew that there were 2 ways to install Linux -
Speakup and the null modem option.  I can now say I've tested both... and
Speakup wins! (Thanks Matt!)

*  The kernel included on the latest versions of the Red Hat and Debian
boot and install disks *do not* support serial console.  Slackware
apparently used to support serial console on install, but I have no
confirmation that it still does.  Thus, unless the user chooses to
recompile the installation kernel to include serial console support,
installing over a null modem cable is not an option if you are using an
i386 architecture machine and RH or Debian. If you're using some other
distro... good luck, and let me know if it works!

* Of course, the standard Linux kernel *does* have serial console support
built in.  So once you've installed and booted to the resident kernel, you
can redirect your output to wherever you want it to go, including the com
ports. (Thanks LCR!)

BTW, with regards to the suggestion to convince the mainstream distros to
integrate speech access, I think a project along this lines is already
under way, courtesy of Alan Cox and Karl Dahlke. Refer to
http://www.eklhad.net/linux/adapter-reqs.html for more info.

And now, off to update the HOWTO...

-jen

Re: Thanks for the null-modem cable help!

[L. C. Robinson]

On Tue, 16 Oct 2001, Jennifer E Jobst wrote:

> *  The kernel included on the latest versions of the Red Hat
> and Debian boot and install disks *do not* support serial
> console.

I believe this is probably in error.  In a post yesterday I
quoted a RedHat installation manual section that specifically
says that it is supported, and I have also proved from the kernel
config files that it is compiled into the 2.2.19 _installation_
kernels, as well as the others.  One has only to run the
following command to find out if it is also suppported in the
2.4 kernels:

grep -i 'console.*y' /usr/src/linux-2.4.2/configs/kernel-2.4.2-i386-BOOT.config
(this assumes you have the kernel-source package installed.  I'd
do it, but it uses 90 meg, so I don't have it installed right now).

I checked /usr/doc/kernel-doc-2.2.19/serial-console.txt, and you
may have gotten the syntax wrong.  The example in the file reads:

      console=ttyS1,9600 console=tty0

Note that that there is no "/dev/" before the ttySx parameter.
You could also check that /etc/ioctl.save does NOT exist on the
install image or floppy.  I suppose there could also be baud rate
problems.

If you cannot get this to work (unlikely), it should be reported
to RedHat as a bug, and a corrected install floppy image could be
posted by them: they have to support people who run headless
rackmount servers, and who have to install and maintain large
networks remotely, so such a mistake could be an expensive one.
Otherwise, you would want to instruct your HOWTO readers in the
finer points of the proper syntax so that they don't run into the
same problems.

> Thus, unless the user chooses to recompile the installation
> kernel to include serial console support, installing over a

Again, if there is an error, recompilation is probably not the
solution.  They might need only to remove /etc/ioctl.save, or
something similar, as instructed in the serial-console.txt file
(but this would still be a problem for new users, so a
replacement floppy image should be provided instead, preferably
by RedHat, in their updates directories).

> null modem cable is not an option if you are using an i386
> architecture machine and RH or Debian. If you're using some
> other distro... good luck, and let me know if it works!

LCR

-- 
L. C. Robinson
reply to no_spam+munged_lcr@onewest.net.invalid

People buy MicroShaft for compatibility, but get incompatibility and
instability instead.  This is award winning "innovation".  Find
out how MS holds your data hostage with "The *Lens*"; see
"CyberSnare" at http://www.netaction.org/msoft/cybersnare.html

Re: Thanks for the null-modem cable help!

[Janina Sajka]

On Wed, 17 Oct 2001, L. C. Robinson wrote:

> On Tue, 16 Oct 2001, Jennifer E Jobst wrote:
> 
> > *  The kernel included on the latest versions of the Red Hat
> > and Debian boot and install disks *do not* support serial
> > console.
> 
> I believe this is probably in error.  In a post yesterday I
> quoted a RedHat installation manual section that specifically
> says that it is supported, and I have also proved from the kernel
> config files that it is compiled into the 2.2.19 _installation_
> kernels, as well as the others.  One has only to run the
> following command to find out if it is also suppported in the
> 2.4 kernels:
> 
> grep -i 'console.*y' /usr/src/linux-2.4.2/configs/kernel-2.4.2-i386-BOOT.config


LC is correct, and Jennifer is wrong as re the latest Redhat which is 
7/.2. Here is the output of:

grep SERIAL_CONSOLE *

which I executed in /usr/src/linux-2.4/configs:

kernel-2.4.7-athlon-smp.config:CONFIG_SERIAL_CONSOLE=y
kernel-2.4.7-athlon.config:CONFIG_SERIAL_CONSOLE=y
kernel-2.4.7-i386-BOOT.config:CONFIG_SERIAL_CONSOLE=y
kernel-2.4.7-i386-smp.config:CONFIG_SERIAL_CONSOLE=y
kernel-2.4.7-i386.config:CONFIG_SERIAL_CONSOLE=y
kernel-2.4.7-i586-smp.config:CONFIG_SERIAL_CONSOLE=y
kernel-2.4.7-i586.config:CONFIG_SERIAL_CONSOLE=y
kernel-2.4.7-i686-debug.config:CONFIG_SERIAL_CONSOLE=y
kernel-2.4.7-i686-enterprise.config:CONFIG_SERIAL_CONSOLE=y
kernel-2.4.7-i686-smp.config:CONFIG_SERIAL_CONSOLE=y
kernel-2.4.7-i686.config:CONFIG_SERIAL_CONSOLE=y


> (this assumes you have the kernel-source package installed.  I'd
> do it, but it uses 90 meg, so I don't have it installed right now).
> 
> I checked /usr/doc/kernel-doc-2.2.19/serial-console.txt, and you
> may have gotten the syntax wrong.  The example in the file reads:
> 
>       console=ttyS1,9600 console=tty0
> 
> Note that that there is no "/dev/" before the ttySx parameter.
> You could also check that /etc/ioctl.save does NOT exist on the
> install image or floppy.  I suppose there could also be baud rate
> problems.
> 
> If you cannot get this to work (unlikely), it should be reported
> to RedHat as a bug, and a corrected install floppy image could be
> posted by them: they have to support people who run headless
> rackmount servers, and who have to install and maintain large
> networks remotely, so such a mistake could be an expensive one.
> Otherwise, you would want to instruct your HOWTO readers in the
> finer points of the proper syntax so that they don't run into the
> same problems.
> 
> > Thus, unless the user chooses to recompile the installation
> > kernel to include serial console support, installing over a
> 
> Again, if there is an error, recompilation is probably not the
> solution.  They might need only to remove /etc/ioctl.save, or
> something similar, as instructed in the serial-console.txt file
> (but this would still be a problem for new users, so a
> replacement floppy image should be provided instead, preferably
> by RedHat, in their updates directories).
> 
> > null modem cable is not an option if you are using an i386
> > architecture machine and RH or Debian. If you're using some
> > other distro... good luck, and let me know if it works!
> 
> LCR
> 
> 

-- 
	
				Janina Sajka, Director
				Technology Research and Development
				Governmental Relations Group
				American Foundation for the Blind (AFB)

Email: janina@afb.net		Phone: (202) 408-8175

Chair, Accessibility SIG
Open Electronic Book Forum (OEBF)
http://www.openebook.org

Will electronic books surpass print books? Read our white paper,
Surpassing Gutenberg, at http://www.afb.org/ebook.asp

Download a free sample Digital Talking Book edition of Martin Luther
King Jr's inspiring "I Have A Dream" speech at
http://www.afb.org/mlkweb.asp

Learn how to make accessible software at
http://www.afb.org/accessapp.asp

Re: Thanks for the null-modem cable help!

[Brent Harding]

Wow, that'd be odd to not support this, but kickstart install can work on
servers too, but something must send the proper command to the boot loader
when the disk boots, or does the floppy autodetect serial if I decide to
not hook a keyboard to a machine I might run linux on? It makes no sense to
hook extra stuff up, as then I need another synthesizer too, unless there's
a a switch for isa devices from one machine to the other so when I want, I
hit a switch, and the keyboard and double talk go on the other machine.
At 04:36 AM 10/17/01 -0600, you wrote:
>On Tue, 16 Oct 2001, Jennifer E Jobst wrote:
>
>> *  The kernel included on the latest versions of the Red Hat
>> and Debian boot and install disks *do not* support serial
>> console.
>
>I believe this is probably in error.  In a post yesterday I
>quoted a RedHat installation manual section that specifically
>says that it is supported, and I have also proved from the kernel
>config files that it is compiled into the 2.2.19 _installation_
>kernels, as well as the others.  One has only to run the
>following command to find out if it is also suppported in the
>2.4 kernels:
>
>grep -i 'console.*y'
/usr/src/linux-2.4.2/configs/kernel-2.4.2-i386-BOOT.config
>(this assumes you have the kernel-source package installed.  I'd
>do it, but it uses 90 meg, so I don't have it installed right now).
>
>I checked /usr/doc/kernel-doc-2.2.19/serial-console.txt, and you
>may have gotten the syntax wrong.  The example in the file reads:
>
>      console=ttyS1,9600 console=tty0
>
>Note that that there is no "/dev/" before the ttySx parameter.
>You could also check that /etc/ioctl.save does NOT exist on the
>install image or floppy.  I suppose there could also be baud rate
>problems.
>
>If you cannot get this to work (unlikely), it should be reported
>to RedHat as a bug, and a corrected install floppy image could be
>posted by them: they have to support people who run headless
>rackmount servers, and who have to install and maintain large
>networks remotely, so such a mistake could be an expensive one.
>Otherwise, you would want to instruct your HOWTO readers in the
>finer points of the proper syntax so that they don't run into the
>same problems.
>
>> Thus, unless the user chooses to recompile the installation
>> kernel to include serial console support, installing over a
>
>Again, if there is an error, recompilation is probably not the
>solution.  They might need only to remove /etc/ioctl.save, or
>something similar, as instructed in the serial-console.txt file
>(but this would still be a problem for new users, so a
>replacement floppy image should be provided instead, preferably
>by RedHat, in their updates directories).
>
>> null modem cable is not an option if you are using an i386
>> architecture machine and RH or Debian. If you're using some
>> other distro... good luck, and let me know if it works!
>
>LCR
>
>-- 
>L. C. Robinson
>reply to no_spam+munged_lcr@onewest.net.invalid
>
>People buy MicroShaft for compatibility, but get incompatibility and
>instability instead.  This is award winning "innovation".  Find
>out how MS holds your data hostage with "The *Lens*"; see
>"CyberSnare" at http://www.netaction.org/msoft/cybersnare.html
>
>
>
>_______________________________________________
>Blinux-list mailing list
>Blinux-list@redhat.com
>https://listman.redhat.com/mailman/listinfo/blinux-list
>
>

Re: Thanks for the null-modem cable help!

[L. C. Robinson]

On Wed, 17 Oct 2001, Brent Harding wrote:

> Wow, that'd be odd to not support this, but kickstart install
> can work on servers too, but something must send the proper
> command to the boot loader when the disk boots,

Yes, I should think kickstart would be ideal for many experienced
users, and even some sharp newbies.

> or does the floppy autodetect serial if I decide to not hook a
> keyboard to a machine I might run linux on?

>From the kernel doc file (serial-console.txt):

   If no console device is specified, the first device found
   capable of acting as a system console will be used. At this
   time, the system first looks for a VGA card and then for a
   serial port. So if you don't have a VGA card in your system
   the first serial port will automatically become the console.

No mention was made of the keyboard, but the idea makes me
curious.

> It makes no sense to hook extra stuff up, as then I need
> another synthesizer too, unless there's a a switch for isa
> devices from one machine to the other so when I want, I hit a
> switch, and the keyboard and double talk go on the other
> machine.

Humm, this question is unclear, but one could maybe disable some
jumper programmable video cards, by running a cable to an
external switch instead of using a normal jumper, instead of
pulling the card out of the machine.  But note that it is
possible to have multiple console devices by defining more than
one console=ttyXX parameters, so you could have both serial and
normal video card output.  You can also define special extra run
levels with extra (serial) gettys (logins) active only on them.

Hope this helps, LCR

-- 
L. C. Robinson
reply to no_spam+munged_lcr@onewest.net.invalid

People buy MicroShaft for compatibility, but get incompatibility and
instability instead.  This is award winning "innovation".  Find
out how MS holds your data hostage with "The *Lens*"; see
"CyberSnare" at http://www.netaction.org/msoft/cybersnare.html

Re: Thanks for the null-modem cable help!

[Brent Harding]

Is it possible to force a boot disk to use serial console? Most systems
come with video already on, so it gets that, but most servers have vga of
some kind anyway, so whoever sets it up would have to some how disable the
integrated stuff on the board to get a headless install, unless you can
modify a boot disk to include the parameter.
At 09:33 PM 10/17/01 -0600, you wrote:
>On Wed, 17 Oct 2001, Brent Harding wrote:
>
>> Wow, that'd be odd to not support this, but kickstart install
>> can work on servers too, but something must send the proper
>> command to the boot loader when the disk boots,
>
>Yes, I should think kickstart would be ideal for many experienced
>users, and even some sharp newbies.
>
>> or does the floppy autodetect serial if I decide to not hook a
>> keyboard to a machine I might run linux on?
>
>>From the kernel doc file (serial-console.txt):
>
>   If no console device is specified, the first device found
>   capable of acting as a system console will be used. At this
>   time, the system first looks for a VGA card and then for a
>   serial port. So if you don't have a VGA card in your system
>   the first serial port will automatically become the console.
>
>No mention was made of the keyboard, but the idea makes me
>curious.
>
>> It makes no sense to hook extra stuff up, as then I need
>> another synthesizer too, unless there's a a switch for isa
>> devices from one machine to the other so when I want, I hit a
>> switch, and the keyboard and double talk go on the other
>> machine.
>
>Humm, this question is unclear, but one could maybe disable some
>jumper programmable video cards, by running a cable to an
>external switch instead of using a normal jumper, instead of
>pulling the card out of the machine.  But note that it is
>possible to have multiple console devices by defining more than
>one console=ttyXX parameters, so you could have both serial and
>normal video card output.  You can also define special extra run
>levels with extra (serial) gettys (logins) active only on them.
>
>Hope this helps, LCR
>
>-- 
>L. C. Robinson
>reply to no_spam+munged_lcr@onewest.net.invalid
>
>People buy MicroShaft for compatibility, but get incompatibility and
>instability instead.  This is award winning "innovation".  Find
>out how MS holds your data hostage with "The *Lens*"; see
>"CyberSnare" at http://www.netaction.org/msoft/cybersnare.html
>
>
>
>_______________________________________________
>Blinux-list mailing list
>Blinux-list@redhat.com
>https://listman.redhat.com/mailman/listinfo/blinux-list
>
>

Re: Thanks for the null-modem cable help!

[Janina Sajka]

The installation boot floppy is an MS DOS floppy. You can read it and edit 
its text files in any DOS or Windows text editor.

The file you want is syslinux.cfg

I'm sorry, I don't recall the specific command syntax to force boot over 
the serial port, so I won't guess at it. I know this has come up here 
before. Somone will either post that shortly, or you can find it in the 
list's archives.


On Thu, 18 Oct 2001, Brent Harding wrote:

> Is it possible to force a boot disk to use serial console? Most systems
> come with video already on, so it gets that, but most servers have vga of
> some kind anyway, so whoever sets it up would have to some how disable the
> integrated stuff on the board to get a headless install, unless you can
> modify a boot disk to include the parameter.
> At 09:33 PM 10/17/01 -0600, you wrote:
> >On Wed, 17 Oct 2001, Brent Harding wrote:
> >
> >> Wow, that'd be odd to not support this, but kickstart install
> >> can work on servers too, but something must send the proper
> >> command to the boot loader when the disk boots,
> >
> >Yes, I should think kickstart would be ideal for many experienced
> >users, and even some sharp newbies.
> >
> >> or does the floppy autodetect serial if I decide to not hook a
> >> keyboard to a machine I might run linux on?
> >
> >>From the kernel doc file (serial-console.txt):
> >
> >   If no console device is specified, the first device found
> >   capable of acting as a system console will be used. At this
> >   time, the system first looks for a VGA card and then for a
> >   serial port. So if you don't have a VGA card in your system
> >   the first serial port will automatically become the console.
> >
> >No mention was made of the keyboard, but the idea makes me
> >curious.
> >
> >> It makes no sense to hook extra stuff up, as then I need
> >> another synthesizer too, unless there's a a switch for isa
> >> devices from one machine to the other so when I want, I hit a
> >> switch, and the keyboard and double talk go on the other
> >> machine.
> >
> >Humm, this question is unclear, but one could maybe disable some
> >jumper programmable video cards, by running a cable to an
> >external switch instead of using a normal jumper, instead of
> >pulling the card out of the machine.  But note that it is
> >possible to have multiple console devices by defining more than
> >one console=ttyXX parameters, so you could have both serial and
> >normal video card output.  You can also define special extra run
> >levels with extra (serial) gettys (logins) active only on them.
> >
> >Hope this helps, LCR
> >
> >-- 
> >L. C. Robinson
> >reply to no_spam+munged_lcr@onewest.net.invalid
> >
> >People buy MicroShaft for compatibility, but get incompatibility and
> >instability instead.  This is award winning "innovation".  Find
> >out how MS holds your data hostage with "The *Lens*"; see
> >"CyberSnare" at http://www.netaction.org/msoft/cybersnare.html
> >
> >
> >
> >_______________________________________________
> >Blinux-list mailing list
> >Blinux-list@redhat.com
> >https://listman.redhat.com/mailman/listinfo/blinux-list
> >
> >
> 
> 
> 
> _______________________________________________
> Blinux-list mailing list
> Blinux-list@redhat.com
> https://listman.redhat.com/mailman/listinfo/blinux-list
> 

-- 
	
				Janina Sajka, Director
				Technology Research and Development
				Governmental Relations Group
				American Foundation for the Blind (AFB)

Email: janina@afb.net		Phone: (202) 408-8175

Chair, Accessibility SIG
Open Electronic Book Forum (OEBF)
http://www.openebook.org

Will electronic books surpass print books? Read our white paper,
Surpassing Gutenberg, at http://www.afb.org/ebook.asp

Download a free sample Digital Talking Book edition of Martin Luther
King Jr's inspiring "I Have A Dream" speech at
http://www.afb.org/mlkweb.asp

Learn how to make accessible software at
http://www.afb.org/accessapp.asp

Announcing speakup version 1.00

[Kirk Reiser]

Announcing the first stable release, speakup v-1.00

Speakup is a screen review package for the Linux operating system.  It
allows you to hear all output directed to the console and move around
the screen using the typical screen review functions.

This is a stable release by popular vote on the speakup mailing
list.  Which means it is by no means complete but seems stable and has
been well tested.

It is quite usable in it's current incarnation though, with the
blaring lack of cursor output support.  That means in an editor it
doesn't read each line as you move up and down the screen.  It tracks
the cursor so you just need to do a say current line but it doesn't do
it all by itself.  There is more to be said for cursor tracking and
speaking than meets the ear at first glance.

Speakup is a set of kernel patches which means you should have some
experience with kernel compiling.  It currently works on the Linux
kernels 2.2.18 and 2.4.xx and above.  As of this release we are
at kernel level 2.2.19 and 2.4.12.

What's new in v-1.00?  A synth driver array which allows multiple
synths to be built-in to the kernel.  There is a new kernel command
line switch speakup_synth=xxxx which allows synthesizer selection at
boot time.  Speakup now has /proc/speakup entries for controlling
synth options such as rate and volume.  Speakup now supports a number
of various synthesizers including the DoubleTalk PC, the LiteTalk and
DoubleTalk LT, the Accent PC and SA, the Artic Transport, the
Speakout, Dectalks external and Express, the Audapter, the Braille 'N
Speak and the Apollo2.  The current version is now configurable within
the make config system which will make installation much more straight
forward.  Another new feature is that speakup comes with an install
script which will apply the patches automatically and keep backups for
upgrading from cvs in the future.

The new features include:

The /proc/speakup configuration system,
The ability to turn keyboard echo on or off,
A /proc/speakup/bell_pos file to provide a beep at a specified position on a line.
Experimental cursor tracking announcement,
The ability to turn speakup totally off in individual consoles,
User defined extended character support,
Rudimentary support for other screen review software through the /dev/synth 
device.
A block and paste function to provide text copying between virtual consoles.

There is a mailing list for speakup which you are welcome to join if
you are interested in it's on going development.  You can subscribe to
the mailing list by sending a message to speakup-request@braille.uwo.ca with
a line in the body of the message like this:

subscribe
 
The mailing list is currently a very low traffic forum so you probably
won't be overwhelmed with mail, although that is changing as more and
more blind people discover Linux.  You can also subscribe to the
mailing list by following the links on the web page.

The official speakup distribution point is
ftp://linux-speakup.org/pub/linux/speakup.  The ftp area includes all
of the current speakup files and utilities.  It also includes a
subdirectory containing older versions of speakup.  There is a new
directory tree which contains the base debian installation disks with
speakup already installed, as well as boot images for Redhat and
Slackware.  So if you have any of the supported synths you can down
load the disk images and install your entire system with speech.  The
installation disks currently contain speakup version-0.10a but those
will probably be upgraded soon.

We are in the middle of writing a set of web pages for speakup.  You
can check them out at http://www.linux-speakup.org.  We would like to
hear what you think of them and will gladly consider recommendations
on their improvement.  We have what we consider a way cool logo for
the speakup project as well, it would be nice to hear your opinions on
that also.

Speakup is written by Kirk Reiser and Andy Berdan.  It is covered by
the GPL (GNU General Public License).

So, like I think that's about it.  If you have any questions feel free
to write me at kirk@braille.uwo.ca.  If you have any of the synths now
covered by speakup, we could really use your feedback.  If you are
just dying to get involved in a software project, boy do we have a
bridge to sell you! 'grin'

  Kirk

email: kirk@braille.uwo.ca
phone: (519) 679-6845 (home)

-- 

Kirk Reiser				The Computer Braille Facility
e-mail: kirk@braille.uwo.ca		University of Western Ontario
phone: (519) 661-3061

Re: Announcing speakup version 1.00

[Janina Sajka]

Kirk:

Congradulations on speakup 1.0. It's an important milestone and a great 
achievment.

Suggestion: The announcement you posted reads as a "continuing advances" 
announcement might read where you're announcing a new version in a 
continuing succession of betas. This is unfortunate, imho, and doesn't fit 
the 1.0 status designator. I would suggest things like "now supports" are 
part of the problem. Instead, you should just say "Supports." Is this 
making sense?

I would be glad to do a rewrite, if you like, but it would not be until 
later today. I have a rewrite in progress re accessible cell phones for 
the upcoming issue of AccessWorld.

PS: I'm going to push to get the speakup announcement into AccessWorld. 
It's the magic of 1.0! <grin>


-- 
	
				Janina Sajka, Director
				Technology Research and Development
				Governmental Relations Group
				American Foundation for the Blind (AFB)

Email: janina@afb.net		Phone: (202) 408-8175

Chair, Accessibility SIG
Open Electronic Book Forum (OEBF)
http://www.openebook.org

Will electronic books surpass print books? Read our white paper,
Surpassing Gutenberg, at http://www.afb.org/ebook.asp

Download a free sample Digital Talking Book edition of Martin Luther
King Jr's inspiring "I Have A Dream" speech at
http://www.afb.org/mlkweb.asp

Learn how to make accessible software at
http://www.afb.org/accessapp.asp

Re: Announcing speakup version 1.00

[Kirk Reiser]

Sure Janina:  If you'd like to do a rewrite that would be great.  You
know how much I love blowing my own horn. 'grin'

  Kirk

-- 

Kirk Reiser				The Computer Braille Facility
e-mail: kirk@braille.uwo.ca		University of Western Ontario
phone: (519) 661-3061

Re: Thanks for the null-modem cable help!

[Ari Moisio]

Hi!
Janina Sajka 18.10.01:

>I'm sorry, I don't recall the specific command syntax to force boot over
>the serial port, so I won't guess at it. I know this has come up here
>before. Somone will either post that shortly, or you can find it in the
>list's archives.

  I tried this with Debian potato. I addded
console=ttyS0
at the end of append line in syslinux.cfg file.

  I tried both minicom and frontdoor as terminal, former didnt't work at
all, latter with many problems. There were problems with end-of-line
character (ctrl-j instead of return etc.) and screen updates, some times
i got screenful of screen control sequences instead of menu and so on.
MOst of those problems could probably be avoided with properly
configured terminal emulator.

  After all it was the most awful LInux installation and took almost two
days but hey, it works now:->

-- 
Mr. Ari Moisio, Niittykatu 7, 41160 Tikkakoski, +358-40-5055239
ari.moisio@iki.fi http://www.iki.fi/arimo PGP-keyID: 0x3FAF0F05

Re: Thanks for the null-modem cable help!

[L. C. Robinson]

Usually the type of terminal problems you describe, when using
curses library based programs (and the text install is curses
based), come from not specifying a matching terminal type, since
different terminal types often use radically different character
sequences to control cursor placement, color, etc.  This is
normally done by putting a TERM=xxxx directive in the environment
of the program, so that the program can obtain the proper escape
sequences from a termcap or terminfo database of terminal types.

The install program is going to assume, probably, that
TERM=linux, which is an enhanced color superset of vt100,
following ansi standards, that is used on the normal SVGA monitor
consoles.

So you would solve this problem by using an advanced ansi
compliant color terminal emulation, such as those in the DEC
vt500 series.  Kermit has some of these, but I don't know how
well it works with synths.

A possibly easier alternative might be to find a way to tell the
install program what kind of terminal you are using (or
emulating).  Lilo will pass environmental variables specified on
the boot command line on to the bootup scripts, and I am guessing
the other boot loaders will too.  The install script may very
well get the same environment.  So one could also try adding:

TERM=vt100

or a similar terminal type, depending in your terminal emulation,
to the append line, too, just as you did with the console=ttyS0,
making sure that the install disk has that terminal type in it's
terminal database (which is likely to be reduced to just a few,
to fit on the install disk, so one might need to be added).

If someone can make this work, with a convenient windows or DOS
terminal emulation, this scheme should be added to the HOWTOs and
FAQs: I therefore suggest that any replies to this should be done
in a fairly finished question-answer format, for the maintainers.

An even better solution would be a finished shell script
(possibly using cygwin), or other program that could
automatically make necessary modifications to the install disk,
thus smoothing the path for the non-technical newbie, who could
then simply download the modification package and run it against
a standard install disk, just answering a few questions, and
maybe even ending up with an automated kickstart install.

LCR

On Fri, 19 Oct 2001, Ari Moisio wrote:

> Janina Sajka 18.10.01:
> >I'm sorry, I don't recall the specific command syntax to force boot over
> >the serial port, so I won't guess at it. I know this has come up here
> >before. Somone will either post that shortly, or you can find it in the
> >list's archives.
> 
>   I tried this with Debian potato. I addded
> console=ttyS0
> at the end of append line in syslinux.cfg file.
> 
>   I tried both minicom and frontdoor as terminal, former didnt't work at
> all, latter with many problems. There were problems with end-of-line
> character (ctrl-j instead of return etc.) and screen updates, some times
> i got screenful of screen control sequences instead of menu and so on.
> MOst of those problems could probably be avoided with properly
> configured terminal emulator.
> 
>   After all it was the most awful LInux installation and took almost two
> days but hey, it works now:->

-- 
L. C. Robinson
reply to no_spam+munged_lcr@onewest.net.invalid

People buy MicroShaft for compatibility, but get incompatibility and
instability instead.  This is award winning "innovation".  Find
out how MS holds your data hostage with "The *Lens*"; see
"CyberSnare" at http://www.netaction.org/msoft/cybersnare.html

Re: Thanks for the null-modem cable help!

[Janina Sajka]

Have a look. It comes with compilation tools. I'm sure it doesn't do 
everything, either.

On Thu, 18 Oct 2001, Brent Harding wrote:

> How does it work for compiling stuff under it? Some programs complain about
> crypt libraries, and the like, it'd be cool to be able to compile unix code
> to run in windows environments.
> At 10:28 AM 10/18/01 -0400, you wrote:
> >After writing my last comment I realized I failed to note that Kermit 95 
> >is not free. So, perhaps a better option might by cygwin for Win32 
> >environments. It is free in the GPL sense of the word and available at:
> >
> >http://sources.redhat.com/cygwin/
> >
> >
> >
> >_______________________________________________
> >Blinux-list mailing list
> >Blinux-list@redhat.com
> >https://listman.redhat.com/mailman/listinfo/blinux-list
> >
> >
> 
> 
> 
> _______________________________________________
> Blinux-list mailing list
> Blinux-list@redhat.com
> https://listman.redhat.com/mailman/listinfo/blinux-list
> 

-- 
	
				Janina Sajka, Director
				Technology Research and Development
				Governmental Relations Group
				American Foundation for the Blind (AFB)

Email: janina@afb.net		Phone: (202) 408-8175

Chair, Accessibility SIG
Open Electronic Book Forum (OEBF)
http://www.openebook.org

Will electronic books surpass print books? Read our white paper,
Surpassing Gutenberg, at http://www.afb.org/ebook.asp

Download a free sample Digital Talking Book edition of Martin Luther
King Jr's inspiring "I Have A Dream" speech at
http://www.afb.org/mlkweb.asp

Learn how to make accessible software at
http://www.afb.org/accessapp.asp

Re: Thanks for the null-modem cable help!

[Brent Harding]

How does it work for compiling stuff under it? Some programs complain about
crypt libraries, and the like, it'd be cool to be able to compile unix code
to run in windows environments.
At 10:28 AM 10/18/01 -0400, you wrote:
>After writing my last comment I realized I failed to note that Kermit 95 
>is not free. So, perhaps a better option might by cygwin for Win32 
>environments. It is free in the GPL sense of the word and available at:
>
>http://sources.redhat.com/cygwin/
>
>
>
>_______________________________________________
>Blinux-list mailing list
>Blinux-list@redhat.com
>https://listman.redhat.com/mailman/listinfo/blinux-list
>
>

Re: Thanks for the null-modem cable help!

[Janina Sajka]

After writing my last comment I realized I failed to note that Kermit 95 
is not free. So, perhaps a better option might by cygwin for Win32 
environments. It is free in the GPL sense of the word and available at:

http://sources.redhat.com/cygwin/

Re: Thanks for the null-modem cable help!

[Janina Sajka]

On Wed, 17 Oct 2001, L. C. Robinson wrote:

> ... I don't know if kermit works with dos screen
> readers, ... 

K95 works very well with ASAP right out of the box. Apparently it will 
also work with Vocal-Eyes with one settings change. I do not know about 
getting Kermit working with either TinyTalk or JAWS for DOS, which are 
both freeware. I do know that functional, time-limited demos of asap and 
Vocal-Eyes are available, and these are the DOS screen readers known to 
work well with Kermit 95.

As I said ASAP just works out of the box. It's available at 
http://www.microtalk.com.

For Vocal-Eyes, go to http://www.gwmicro.com. Then:

You need to turn Revector checking on in Vocal-Eyes. Do:
	Ctrl-Backslash to enter the VE Control Panel;
	Arrow to Option 5 -- General
	Arrow to Option 13 -- Advanced
	Arrow to Option 3 -- Revector

It will be off by default. Turn it on. It will tell you that you need to 
reboot after using VE with this setting turned on, but that's not a 
problem when running in a DOS Window under Windows because you can just 
exit the DOS session and restart--something you probably mean to do 
anyway.

Re: Thanks for the null-modem cable help!

[Tim Pennick]

Jennifer,

With ref. to your query about terminal emulators and JAWS, I've been really
surprised since finally ditching my old DOS terminal emulator environment,
just how difficult it is to get a decent Windows environment to replace it.
I'm using a braille display as well as speech with JFW3.7, and the best
results I've got so far are with Reflection 7.0 (from WRQ Inc.).  There is a
JAWS Config File which seems to improve things a fair amount, which was
written to improve useability with several more-or-less generic emulators.
Let me know if you'd like a copy, though mine may be out of date.  It may be
worth looking at the Freedom Scientific web page, or on the JAWS lists.

Also the standard Windows Telnet command works quite well.  I've tried it
using just speech, and you need to regularly check your current line using
insert+2, as it doesn't seem to speak it when its displayed on the terminal.

Reflection has some useful features (admittedly shared by many terminal
emulators) such as the ability to set your options so that a mouse click can
be used to route the system cursor.  This alows JAWS to move the system cursor
under braille-routing, or route-PC-to-JAWS functionality.

Your problem with Hyper-terminal not being able to use arrow keys, may depend
on what environment you're in.  E.g. if you're at the command line and the
arrow key is passed straight through to the operating system to try to move
the system cursor, this won't work as the system cursor can't be moved in this
environment.  However, you may find that if you're in an editor such as VI,
you'd be able to move the cursor with the arrow keys.  Also, you could get
around this problem by switching to JAWS cursor to review what's going on.

I'd be interested to know more about the emulator you mentioned CRT? as I
haven't heard of this one, and it may be better/cheaper than the one I'm
using.  Where did you download it?

Regards,

Tim Pennick

Re: Thanks for the null-modem cable help!

[L. C. Robinson]

On Wed, 17 Oct 2001, Jennifer E Jobst wrote:

> Of course, now that I have console output showing up in my
> HyperTerminal window, I have a new problem.  As Kerry pointed
> out yesterday, Hyperterminal doesn't work that well with Jaws,
> and I can't navigate at all with arrow keys. For some reason,
> only the Tab and Return keys actually seem to do anything in
> Hyperterminal, which makes it rather difficult to make any
> selections. So, I decided to download and try CRT 3.0. It works

Can Hyperterminal be set to emulate many different types of
terminals, like Kermit can?  Could it be, perhaps, that the
current or default terminal emulation is inconsistent with what
the installer expects?  The terminal on a normal monitor console
is TERM=linux, which is kind of an enhanced color vt100 or vt2xx
I suppose.  The DEC vtxxx terminal line included even some vt500
series terminals that could use a normal color monitor and
keyboard, if I remember right, and recent kermit versions could
emulate these.  I don't know if kermit works with dos screen
readers, though.  You'd want to use a terminal type that is a
color superset of the industry standard vt100 or ansi types, for
maximum compatibility, unless you can dig some way out of the
installer manuals to set TERM=xxxxx (one could hack the install
disk, too, but that is not for the average user).  Ansi was based
on vt100, with many enhancements, but most real world ansi
emulations are very incomplete, even to the point of being
kind of stupid, regardless of the standard.  To see what I mean,
do:
grep -2i ansi /etc/termcap
and you will see a slew of ansi variants, many labeled as poor,
but the commentary may give you clues as to what terminal
emulators to look for.

Hope this helps, LCR

-- 
L. C. Robinson
reply to no_spam+munged_lcr@onewest.net.invalid

People buy MicroShaft for compatibility, but get incompatibility and
instability instead.  This is award winning "innovation".  Find
out how MS holds your data hostage with "The *Lens*"; see
"CyberSnare" at http://www.netaction.org/msoft/cybersnare.html

Re: Thanks for the null-modem cable help!

[Jennifer E Jobst]

>> *  The kernel included on the latest versions of the Red Hat
>> and Debian boot and install disks *do not* support serial
>> console.

>I believe this is probably in error.  In a post yesterday I
>quoted a RedHat installation manual section that specifically
>says that it is supported, and I have also proved from the kernel
>config files that it is compiled into the 2.2.19 _installation_
>kernels, as well as the others.  One has only to run the
>following command to find out if it is also suppported in the
>2.4 kernels:
     *snip*

My apologies L.C., you are correct.  I didn't do enough homework and
testing before coming to a conclusion... thank you for having the patience
to gently point out the error in my ways. :) Anyway, at your suggestion I
tried a few more combinations of commands at the boot: prompt on the RH
machine, I did in fact manage to get console to output to HyperTerminal on
my Win 2000 box.

The command that actually worked was:

linux text console=ttyS0

Thus, my original statement should be amended to:

* The kernel included on the latest versions of the Red Hat boot disks
*does* support serial console; however you must be careful to use the
appropriate syntax.

Of course, now that I have console output showing up in my HyperTerminal
window, I have a new problem.  As Kerry pointed out yesterday,
Hyperterminal doesn't work that well with Jaws, and I can't navigate at all
with arrow keys. For some reason, only the Tab and Return keys actually
seem to do anything in Hyperterminal, which makes it rather difficult to
make any selections. So, I decided to download and try CRT 3.0. It works
just fine and now I can navigate with the arrow keys (as well as Tab and
Return), but I'm still working on the speech problem.

Can anyone offer any advice on a VT100 emulator that works well with either
JAWS or some other Win screen reader?

Thanks so much,

-jen