Ameritech.net

Ameritech.net

[Karl Dahlke]

For what it's worth, and it isn't worth much,
I used Ameritech dial-up service for almost a year,
and was very happy with it.
I left only because I wanted a cable modem.

Of course I was happy because everything worked for me straight away,
and I didn't have to ask their technical department for help.

I'm a bit confused by this whole thread.
I thought dsl was a static always on connection.
Why ppp?
Why pppd?
Why ppp0?
Don't they give you a box that looks like a cable modem,
with a nic interface,
and don't you just plug into that, like an ethernet?
Don't you just set up for an ethernet connection and go?
I guess I don't know much about dsl,
so I'll stop talking now,
before I do more harm than good.

Karl

Re: Ameritech.net

[Cheryl Homiak]

Yes, what you say is true as far as it goes; dsl is done by ethernet with
an ethernet modem.  However, you have to have software to make this work;
for windows users, this software comes with the installation kit, but for
linux users it means installing packages.  In this case, it was pppoe
(roaring penguin version).  Aparently, pppoe works in combination with
pppd for linking; if all went well, this would happen at boot and there
would be no problem.  However, in this case, all did not go well and I
don't know why.  I am sure lots of people have good experiences with
ameritech; I was only relating my experience so people could be warned
that they might have a problem.

Cheryl

Re: Ameritech.net

[Cheryl Homiak]

I should add that there are actually several kinds of dsl connections; if
you become interested, the dsl howto would be a good place to start.

Cheryl

Re: Ameritech.net

[John J. Boyer]

Hello,
We have had DSL from TDS Metrocom for about three months and have never had
down time. I think they us HPCH or some other bit of alphabet soup, but it's
not PPOE. It supports our entire office with five computers. We only had
tweak Windows' network settings to make it work.
Just a positive note amid all the negative ones.
John

Computers to Help People, Inc.
http://www.chpi.org
825 East Johnson; Madison, WI 53703


----- Original Message -----
From: "Janina Sajka" <janina@afb.net>
To: <blinux-list@redhat.com>
Sent: Friday, September 07, 2001 09:29
Subject: Re: Ameritech.net


> I was a Verizon DSL customer when the company was still called Bell
> Atlantic and when consumer DSL service was still very new beginning in
> February 1999. In those days, DSL customers were assigned static IPs. My
> personal experience was that the service was great when it worked, which
> wasn't quite enough of the time. I had long periods of down time--about
> two weeks every three months or so. Calling tech support was a nightmare.
> First, I would sit on hold listening to the same clip of Vivaldi for tens
> of minutes. A half-hour wait was common, and the Vivaldi never
> changed--always the same snipit from the first movement of Spring. Once I
> got first level tier support my problems only got worse. Clearly, it was
> my fault because I wasn't in Windows. Clearly, when I rebooted into
> Windows, it was the screen reader. Once I pushed up to second, and even
> third tier support, it was, of course, never my fault. At least twice they
> moved me to ppoe without even telling me they were doing it. Mostly, they
> just couldn't explain it--system upgrades at the CO, please call back if
> the problem persists.
>
> I will not be a Telco DSL customer again, mostly because of their terrible
> track record with me, but also because they've moved away from DSL
> technology I care to buy. They have indeed found ways to provision DSL in
> ways I don't fully understand--and don't care to. It's more than dynamic
> IPs. I was surprised recently when a friend was installing Verizon DSL on
> his Windows computer--surprised to learn that the install added an icon to
> his Dial Up Networking program group.
>
> In essence, I suspect the telco's judge ip space and general network
> resources insuficient to support the millions of customers they want to
> sell. They want the customers money, but expect they will not use
> persistent connections any more than they use dial up connections. My
> friends DUN based DSL would disconnect on inactivity. Voice phone service
> network capacity is based, as I understand it, on the expectation that the
> average phone call will last four minutes. I'm sure they also have a
> number of calls per month in mind as an average. Of course, they have to
> make those kinds of predictions in order to build out adequate
> infrastructure. But, I have no desire to be part of a broadband service
> that expects casual and occasional web surfing. So, no more telco DSL for
> me.
>
> My advice is to seek a quality provider. My answer, for myself, was
> speakeasy.net for two crowning reasons:
>
> 1.) They actively support linux. In fact, I believe their servers run
> Redhat;
> 2.) They actively have no problem with home networks;
>
> Most providers have problems over linux even if their technology doesn't,
> and have fine print that prohibits multiple machines accessing the
> service. So, I choose to go with the provider that supports the OS and
> features I want and support.
>
>
>  On Thu, 6 Sep
> 2001, Karl Dahlke wrote:
>
> > For what it's worth, and it isn't worth much,
> > I used Ameritech dial-up service for almost a year,
> > and was very happy with it.
> > I left only because I wanted a cable modem.
> >
> > Of course I was happy because everything worked for me straight away,
> > and I didn't have to ask their technical department for help.
> >
> > I'm a bit confused by this whole thread.
> > I thought dsl was a static always on connection.
> > Why ppp?
> > Why pppd?
> > Why ppp0?
> > Don't they give you a box that looks like a cable modem,
> > with a nic interface,
> > and don't you just plug into that, like an ethernet?
> > Don't you just set up for an ethernet connection and go?
> > I guess I don't know much about dsl,
> > so I'll stop talking now,
> > before I do more harm than good.
> >
> > Karl
> >
> >
> >
> > _______________________________________________
> > Blinux-list mailing list
> > Blinux-list@redhat.com
> > https://listman.redhat.com/mailman/listinfo/blinux-list
> >
>
> --
>
> Janina Sajka, Director
> Technology Research and Development
> Governmental Relations Group
> American Foundation for the Blind (AFB)
>
> Email: janina@afb.net Phone: (202) 408-8175
>
> Chair, Accessibility SIG
> Open Electronic Book Forum (OEBF)
> http://www.openebook.org
>
> Will electronic books surpass print books? Read our white paper,
> Surpassing Gutenberg, at http://www.afb.org/ebook.asp
>
> Download a free sample Digital Talking Book edition of Martin Luther
> King Jr's inspiring "I Have A Dream" speech at
> http://www.afb.org/mlkweb.asp
>
> Learn how to make accessible software at
> http://www.afb.org/accessapp.asp
>
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> Blinux-list mailing list
> Blinux-list@redhat.com
> https://listman.redhat.com/mailman/listinfo/blinux-list
>

Re: Ameritech.net

[Janina Sajka]

I was a Verizon DSL customer when the company was still called Bell 
Atlantic and when consumer DSL service was still very new beginning in 
February 1999. In those days, DSL customers were assigned static IPs. My 
personal experience was that the service was great when it worked, which 
wasn't quite enough of the time. I had long periods of down time--about 
two weeks every three months or so. Calling tech support was a nightmare. 
First, I would sit on hold listening to the same clip of Vivaldi for tens 
of minutes. A half-hour wait was common, and the Vivaldi never 
changed--always the same snipit from the first movement of Spring. Once I 
got first level tier support my problems only got worse. Clearly, it was 
my fault because I wasn't in Windows. Clearly, when I rebooted into 
Windows, it was the screen reader. Once I pushed up to second, and even 
third tier support, it was, of course, never my fault. At least twice they 
moved me to ppoe without even telling me they were doing it. Mostly, they 
just couldn't explain it--system upgrades at the CO, please call back if 
the problem persists.

I will not be a Telco DSL customer again, mostly because of their terrible 
track record with me, but also because they've moved away from DSL 
technology I care to buy. They have indeed found ways to provision DSL in 
ways I don't fully understand--and don't care to. It's more than dynamic 
IPs. I was surprised recently when a friend was installing Verizon DSL on 
his Windows computer--surprised to learn that the install added an icon to 
his Dial Up Networking program group.

In essence, I suspect the telco's judge ip space and general network 
resources insuficient to support the millions of customers they want to 
sell. They want the customers money, but expect they will not use 
persistent connections any more than they use dial up connections. My 
friends DUN based DSL would disconnect on inactivity. Voice phone service 
network capacity is based, as I understand it, on the expectation that the 
average phone call will last four minutes. I'm sure they also have a 
number of calls per month in mind as an average. Of course, they have to 
make those kinds of predictions in order to build out adequate 
infrastructure. But, I have no desire to be part of a broadband service 
that expects casual and occasional web surfing. So, no more telco DSL for 
me.

My advice is to seek a quality provider. My answer, for myself, was 
speakeasy.net for two crowning reasons:

1.)	They actively support linux. In fact, I believe their servers run 
Redhat;
2.)	They actively have no problem with home networks;

Most providers have problems over linux even if their technology doesn't,
and have fine print that prohibits multiple machines accessing the
service. So, I choose to go with the provider that supports the OS and
features I want and support.


 On Thu, 6 Sep 
2001, Karl Dahlke wrote:

> For what it's worth, and it isn't worth much,
> I used Ameritech dial-up service for almost a year,
> and was very happy with it.
> I left only because I wanted a cable modem.
> 
> Of course I was happy because everything worked for me straight away,
> and I didn't have to ask their technical department for help.
> 
> I'm a bit confused by this whole thread.
> I thought dsl was a static always on connection.
> Why ppp?
> Why pppd?
> Why ppp0?
> Don't they give you a box that looks like a cable modem,
> with a nic interface,
> and don't you just plug into that, like an ethernet?
> Don't you just set up for an ethernet connection and go?
> I guess I don't know much about dsl,
> so I'll stop talking now,
> before I do more harm than good.
> 
> Karl
> 
> 
> 
> _______________________________________________
> Blinux-list mailing list
> Blinux-list@redhat.com
> https://listman.redhat.com/mailman/listinfo/blinux-list
> 

-- 
	
				Janina Sajka, Director
				Technology Research and Development
				Governmental Relations Group
				American Foundation for the Blind (AFB)

Email: janina@afb.net		Phone: (202) 408-8175

Chair, Accessibility SIG
Open Electronic Book Forum (OEBF)
http://www.openebook.org

Will electronic books surpass print books? Read our white paper,
Surpassing Gutenberg, at http://www.afb.org/ebook.asp

Download a free sample Digital Talking Book edition of Martin Luther
King Jr's inspiring "I Have A Dream" speech at
http://www.afb.org/mlkweb.asp

Learn how to make accessible software at
http://www.afb.org/accessapp.asp

Re: Ameritech.net

[Janina Sajka]

John:

I hope I didn't come across as anti-DSL. I love my DSL. There are 
certainly good providers out there--folks who provide quality and service. 
And, maybe the telco's are even right for some people. I suppose my point 
is to consider what one is buying. All providers are not equal.
 On Fri, 7 
Sep 2001, John J. Boyer wrote:

> Hello,
> We have had DSL from TDS Metrocom for about three months and have never had
> down time. I think they us HPCH or some other bit of alphabet soup, but it's
> not PPOE. It supports our entire office with five computers. We only had
> tweak Windows' network settings to make it work.
> Just a positive note amid all the negative ones.
> John
> 
> Computers to Help People, Inc.
> http://www.chpi.org
> 825 East Johnson; Madison, WI 53703
> 
> 
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: "Janina Sajka" <janina@afb.net>
> To: <blinux-list@redhat.com>
> Sent: Friday, September 07, 2001 09:29
> Subject: Re: Ameritech.net
> 
> 
> > I was a Verizon DSL customer when the company was still called Bell
> > Atlantic and when consumer DSL service was still very new beginning in
> > February 1999. In those days, DSL customers were assigned static IPs. My
> > personal experience was that the service was great when it worked, which
> > wasn't quite enough of the time. I had long periods of down time--about
> > two weeks every three months or so. Calling tech support was a nightmare.
> > First, I would sit on hold listening to the same clip of Vivaldi for tens
> > of minutes. A half-hour wait was common, and the Vivaldi never
> > changed--always the same snipit from the first movement of Spring. Once I
> > got first level tier support my problems only got worse. Clearly, it was
> > my fault because I wasn't in Windows. Clearly, when I rebooted into
> > Windows, it was the screen reader. Once I pushed up to second, and even
> > third tier support, it was, of course, never my fault. At least twice they
> > moved me to ppoe without even telling me they were doing it. Mostly, they
> > just couldn't explain it--system upgrades at the CO, please call back if
> > the problem persists.
> >
> > I will not be a Telco DSL customer again, mostly because of their terrible
> > track record with me, but also because they've moved away from DSL
> > technology I care to buy. They have indeed found ways to provision DSL in
> > ways I don't fully understand--and don't care to. It's more than dynamic
> > IPs. I was surprised recently when a friend was installing Verizon DSL on
> > his Windows computer--surprised to learn that the install added an icon to
> > his Dial Up Networking program group.
> >
> > In essence, I suspect the telco's judge ip space and general network
> > resources insuficient to support the millions of customers they want to
> > sell. They want the customers money, but expect they will not use
> > persistent connections any more than they use dial up connections. My
> > friends DUN based DSL would disconnect on inactivity. Voice phone service
> > network capacity is based, as I understand it, on the expectation that the
> > average phone call will last four minutes. I'm sure they also have a
> > number of calls per month in mind as an average. Of course, they have to
> > make those kinds of predictions in order to build out adequate
> > infrastructure. But, I have no desire to be part of a broadband service
> > that expects casual and occasional web surfing. So, no more telco DSL for
> > me.
> >
> > My advice is to seek a quality provider. My answer, for myself, was
> > speakeasy.net for two crowning reasons:
> >
> > 1.) They actively support linux. In fact, I believe their servers run
> > Redhat;
> > 2.) They actively have no problem with home networks;
> >
> > Most providers have problems over linux even if their technology doesn't,
> > and have fine print that prohibits multiple machines accessing the
> > service. So, I choose to go with the provider that supports the OS and
> > features I want and support.
> >
> >
> >  On Thu, 6 Sep
> > 2001, Karl Dahlke wrote:
> >
> > > For what it's worth, and it isn't worth much,
> > > I used Ameritech dial-up service for almost a year,
> > > and was very happy with it.
> > > I left only because I wanted a cable modem.
> > >
> > > Of course I was happy because everything worked for me straight away,
> > > and I didn't have to ask their technical department for help.
> > >
> > > I'm a bit confused by this whole thread.
> > > I thought dsl was a static always on connection.
> > > Why ppp?
> > > Why pppd?
> > > Why ppp0?
> > > Don't they give you a box that looks like a cable modem,
> > > with a nic interface,
> > > and don't you just plug into that, like an ethernet?
> > > Don't you just set up for an ethernet connection and go?
> > > I guess I don't know much about dsl,
> > > so I'll stop talking now,
> > > before I do more harm than good.
> > >
> > > Karl
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > > _______________________________________________
> > > Blinux-list mailing list
> > > Blinux-list@redhat.com
> > > https://listman.redhat.com/mailman/listinfo/blinux-list
> > >
> >
> > --
> >
> > Janina Sajka, Director
> > Technology Research and Development
> > Governmental Relations Group
> > American Foundation for the Blind (AFB)
> >
> > Email: janina@afb.net Phone: (202) 408-8175
> >
> > Chair, Accessibility SIG
> > Open Electronic Book Forum (OEBF)
> > http://www.openebook.org
> >
> > Will electronic books surpass print books? Read our white paper,
> > Surpassing Gutenberg, at http://www.afb.org/ebook.asp
> >
> > Download a free sample Digital Talking Book edition of Martin Luther
> > King Jr's inspiring "I Have A Dream" speech at
> > http://www.afb.org/mlkweb.asp
> >
> > Learn how to make accessible software at
> > http://www.afb.org/accessapp.asp
> >
> >
> >
> > _______________________________________________
> > Blinux-list mailing list
> > Blinux-list@redhat.com
> > https://listman.redhat.com/mailman/listinfo/blinux-list
> >
> 
> 
> 
> 
> _______________________________________________
> Blinux-list mailing list
> Blinux-list@redhat.com
> https://listman.redhat.com/mailman/listinfo/blinux-list
> 

-- 
	
				Janina Sajka, Director
				Technology Research and Development
				Governmental Relations Group
				American Foundation for the Blind (AFB)

Email: janina@afb.net		Phone: (202) 408-8175

Chair, Accessibility SIG
Open Electronic Book Forum (OEBF)
http://www.openebook.org

Will electronic books surpass print books? Read our white paper,
Surpassing Gutenberg, at http://www.afb.org/ebook.asp

Download a free sample Digital Talking Book edition of Martin Luther
King Jr's inspiring "I Have A Dream" speech at
http://www.afb.org/mlkweb.asp

Learn how to make accessible software at
http://www.afb.org/accessapp.asp

Re: Ameritech.net

[S. Massy]

On Fri, 07 Sep 2001, Janina Sajka <janina@afb.net> wrote:

> I was a Verizon DSL customer when the company was still called Bell 
> Atlantic and when consumer DSL service was still very new beginning in 

Oh yes, oh yes... I'm not a verizon user myself but a person close to
me is, and it is a total nightmare. Their dial-up service is barely
decent and their DSL service is anything but decent. I hate to smash a
company like that, even though it's a tremendously big one, but just
don't deal with them if you can help it, well, at least not in
anything that concerns computers.

By the way, this is a rather common problem since cheap internet access
has come around. Companies can make a lot of profit with relatively
small investments; of course their customer pool grows very quickly,
often more quickly than they expand, and they, the companies, often
prefer to have greater profits than to invest back in their systems as
they should. The result is a service whose resources are always
strained to the very limit and then things can easily go amiss.  So
when you consider a service, such as DSL, consider rather the company
with which you will deal than the technology itself. Computers
still require people to make them work, and if they are managed by
incompetent people or people whose sole interest is profit they will
grow faulty.

Also, the open non-support of linux seems to be a very common practice
among ISPs. In my ISP's case it's even worse, I know for a fact that
they use linux, at least on their web server, but they won't support
it: funny way to pay back the community, don't you think?

Just my two pennies.

> February 1999. In those days, DSL customers were assigned static IPs. My 
> personal experience was that the service was great when it worked, which 
> wasn't quite enough of the time. I had long periods of down time--about 
> two weeks every three months or so. Calling tech support was a nightmare. 
> First, I would sit on hold listening to the same clip of Vivaldi for tens 
> of minutes. A half-hour wait was common, and the Vivaldi never 
> changed--always the same snipit from the first movement of Spring. Once I 
> got first level tier support my problems only got worse. Clearly, it was 
> my fault because I wasn't in Windows. Clearly, when I rebooted into 
> Windows, it was the screen reader. Once I pushed up to second, and even 
> third tier support, it was, of course, never my fault. At least twice they 
> moved me to ppoe without even telling me they were doing it. Mostly, they 
> just couldn't explain it--system upgrades at the CO, please call back if 
> the problem persists.
> 
> I will not be a Telco DSL customer again, mostly because of their terrible 
> track record with me, but also because they've moved away from DSL 
> technology I care to buy. They have indeed found ways to provision DSL in 
> ways I don't fully understand--and don't care to. It's more than dynamic 
> IPs. I was surprised recently when a friend was installing Verizon DSL on 
> his Windows computer--surprised to learn that the install added an icon to 
> his Dial Up Networking program group.
> 
> In essence, I suspect the telco's judge ip space and general network 
> resources insuficient to support the millions of customers they want to 
> sell. They want the customers money, but expect they will not use 
> persistent connections any more than they use dial up connections. My 
> friends DUN based DSL would disconnect on inactivity. Voice phone service 
> network capacity is based, as I understand it, on the expectation that the 
> average phone call will last four minutes. I'm sure they also have a 
> number of calls per month in mind as an average. Of course, they have to 
> make those kinds of predictions in order to build out adequate 
> infrastructure. But, I have no desire to be part of a broadband service 
> that expects casual and occasional web surfing. So, no more telco DSL for 
> me.
> 
> My advice is to seek a quality provider. My answer, for myself, was 
> speakeasy.net for two crowning reasons:
> 
> 1.)	They actively support linux. In fact, I believe their servers run 
> Redhat;
> 2.)	They actively have no problem with home networks;
> 
> Most providers have problems over linux even if their technology doesn't,
> and have fine print that prohibits multiple machines accessing the
> service. So, I choose to go with the provider that supports the OS and
> features I want and support.
> 
> 
>  On Thu, 6 Sep 
> 2001, Karl Dahlke wrote:
> 
> > For what it's worth, and it isn't worth much,
> > I used Ameritech dial-up service for almost a year,
> > and was very happy with it.
> > I left only because I wanted a cable modem.
> > 
> > Of course I was happy because everything worked for me straight away,
> > and I didn't have to ask their technical department for help.
> > 
> > I'm a bit confused by this whole thread.
> > I thought dsl was a static always on connection.
> > Why ppp?
> > Why pppd?
> > Why ppp0?
> > Don't they give you a box that looks like a cable modem,
> > with a nic interface,
> > and don't you just plug into that, like an ethernet?
> > Don't you just set up for an ethernet connection and go?
> > I guess I don't know much about dsl,
> > so I'll stop talking now,
> > before I do more harm than good.
> > 
> > Karl
> > 
> > 
> > 
> > _______________________________________________
> > Blinux-list mailing list
> > Blinux-list@redhat.com
> > https://listman.redhat.com/mailman/listinfo/blinux-list
> > 
> 
> -- 
> 	
> 				Janina Sajka, Director
> 				Technology Research and Development
> 				Governmental Relations Group
> 				American Foundation for the Blind (AFB)
> 
> Email: janina@afb.net		Phone: (202) 408-8175
> 
> Chair, Accessibility SIG
> Open Electronic Book Forum (OEBF)
> http://www.openebook.org
> 
> Will electronic books surpass print books? Read our white paper,
> Surpassing Gutenberg, at http://www.afb.org/ebook.asp
> 
> Download a free sample Digital Talking Book edition of Martin Luther
> King Jr's inspiring "I Have A Dream" speech at
> http://www.afb.org/mlkweb.asp
> 
> Learn how to make accessible software at
> http://www.afb.org/accessapp.asp
> 
> 
> 
> _______________________________________________
> Blinux-list mailing list
> Blinux-list@redhat.com
> https://listman.redhat.com/mailman/listinfo/blinux-list

Re: The growing accessibility gap: was Ameritech.net

[Cheryl Homiak]

Gppd observations!  I will say for Ameritech that they were very helpful
this morning explaining what buttons went with what functions on my
cordless phone--a whole different department of course.  I sometimes am
concerned that we as blind people are losing the acces battle.  In
computers there are the Java and shockwave and flash issues, and whatever
else is around the corner.  In communications it's cordless phones and
cell phones that may even have some talking functionality, buut you have
to scroll through a silent menu to access the feature.  In tv, it's menus
ffor the tv and complex menus for the digital cable boxes.  Not at all
meaning to be negative, but I wonder if we are ever going to find
successful ways to bridge these gaps in an ongoing manner.  You can't
blame sighted people for designing equipment that caters to their dominant
physiical sense, but it sure makes it harder and harder for us to keep up.
A long way from where this topic started, but do any of the rest of you
have concerns about these things?  Is anybody finding positive ways of
dealing with them, especially if you don't have a sighted person around a
lot of the time?

Cheryl

Re: The growing accessibility gap: was Ameritech.net

[Jude DaShiell]

The three companies primarily responsible for inaccessibility are sun
microsystems for having invented java in the first place.  Second netscape
for having innovated html and java.  Third Microsoft for having innovated
everything else.

Jude <jdashiel@shellworld.net>

Re: The growing accessibility gap: was Ameritech.net

[Peter Toneby]

On Fri, Sep 07, 2001 at 05:36:26PM -0400, Jude DaShiell wrote:
> The three companies primarily responsible for inaccessibility are sun
> microsystems for having invented java in the first place.  Second netscape
> for having innovated html and java.  Third Microsoft for having innovated
> everything else.

*beeep*
Now this is pretty much plain wrong!!!!
Java, in and on itself, is not inaccessible, it's stupid programmers
that write stupid java-applets,. That should never have been possible.
HTML is not netscapes fault, it w3c's, and netscape hasn't touched Java
very much, IE and Netscape had java-support at the same time. And
Microsoft haven't innovated shit. they have moslty bought their
"innovations" and Windows is alot more accesible than linux when it
comes to apps, In Linux you can't just start jaws and then pretty much
any other app without problems, try and do that on linux with X (say to
do something thee are no fileformat->text-app, You will fail miserably,
but luckily this is seldom the case for most of you. And you can happily
use Linux in console instead of X.

oh, well time to stop rantin and start sleeping...

/Peter
-- 
Alpha Test Version:  Too buggy to be released to the paying public. 
Beta Test Version:  Still too buggy to be released. 
Release Version:  Alternate pronunciation of "Beta Test Version". 

Re: The growing accessibility gap: was Ameritech.net

[Jude DaShiell]

When a computer language is written so that it's possible for stupid
programmers to generate garbage with it and call that finished product the
inventors of the language in my book take full responsibility for having
enabled the garbage.  html on its face before netscape and microsoft came
in and added their innovations was lots more accessible just using lynx
than most of the world-wide wait is today.

Jude <jdashiel@shellworld.net>

On Sat, 8 Sep 2001, Peter Toneby wrote:

> On Fri, Sep 07, 2001 at 05:36:26PM -0400, Jude DaShiell wrote:
> > The three companies primarily responsible for inaccessibility are sun
> > microsystems for having invented java in the first place.  Second netscape
> > for having innovated html and java.  Third Microsoft for having innovated
> > everything else.
>
> *beeep*
> Now this is pretty much plain wrong!!!!
> Java, in and on itself, is not inaccessible, it's stupid programmers
> that write stupid java-applets,. That should never have been possible.
> HTML is not netscapes fault, it w3c's, and netscape hasn't touched Java
> very much, IE and Netscape had java-support at the same time. And
> Microsoft haven't innovated shit. they have moslty bought their
> "innovations" and Windows is alot more accesible than linux when it
> comes to apps, In Linux you can't just start jaws and then pretty much
> any other app without problems, try and do that on linux with X (say to
> do something thee are no fileformat->text-app, You will fail miserably,
> but luckily this is seldom the case for most of you. And you can happily
> use Linux in console instead of X.
>
> oh, well time to stop rantin and start sleeping...
>
> /Peter
> --
> Alpha Test Version:  Too buggy to be released to the paying public.
> Beta Test Version:  Still too buggy to be released.
> Release Version:  Alternate pronunciation of "Beta Test Version".
>
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> Blinux-list mailing list
> Blinux-list@redhat.com
> https://listman.redhat.com/mailman/listinfo/blinux-list
>

RE: The growing accessibility gap: was Ameritech.net

[Aman Singer]

Hi.
Jude DaShiell said
"When a computer language is written so that it's possible for stupid
programmers to generate garbage with it and call that finished product the
inventors of the language in my book take full responsibility for having
enabled the garbage."

Following that logic, basic, c and c++, FORTRAN, as well as any and all
languages used in a GUI environment, and most used in a text environment
such as dos, are garbage and their manufacturers are responsible for
inaccessibility. Obviously, this is wild. When Mr. Smith makes a keyboard,
is he responsible for Mr. Davidson's lack of spelling ability?
He also said
"html on its face before Netscape and Microsoft came
in and added their innovations was lots more accessible just using lynx
than most of the world-wide wait is today."

Note that html is not, by itself, inaccessible. It's lazy people, both blind
users and sighted designers who make it so. I'm a trainer for blind users of
access tech, and I've stopped counting the number of times I've heard people
say that a site isn't accessible when it's they who don't know how to use
it.
Aman



Reading maketh a full man, conference a ready man, and writing an exact man.
           Francis Bacon

-----Original Message-----
From: blinux-list-admin@redhat.com
[mailto:blinux-list-admin@redhat.com]On Behalf Of Jude DaShiell
Sent: Friday, September 07, 2001 9:42 PM
To: blinux-list@redhat.com
Subject: Re: The growing accessibility gap: was Ameritech.net


When a computer language is written so that it's possible for stupid
programmers to generate garbage with it and call that finished product the
inventors of the language in my book take full responsibility for having
enabled the garbage.  html on its face before netscape and microsoft came
in and added their innovations was lots more accessible just using lynx
than most of the world-wide wait is today.

Jude <jdashiel@shellworld.net>

On Sat, 8 Sep 2001, Peter Toneby wrote:

> On Fri, Sep 07, 2001 at 05:36:26PM -0400, Jude DaShiell wrote:
> > The three companies primarily responsible for inaccessibility are sun
> > microsystems for having invented java in the first place.  Second
netscape
> > for having innovated html and java.  Third Microsoft for having
innovated
> > everything else.
>
> *beeep*
> Now this is pretty much plain wrong!!!!
> Java, in and on itself, is not inaccessible, it's stupid programmers
> that write stupid java-applets,. That should never have been possible.
> HTML is not netscapes fault, it w3c's, and netscape hasn't touched Java
> very much, IE and Netscape had java-support at the same time. And
> Microsoft haven't innovated shit. they have moslty bought their
> "innovations" and Windows is alot more accesible than linux when it
> comes to apps, In Linux you can't just start jaws and then pretty much
> any other app without problems, try and do that on linux with X (say to
> do something thee are no fileformat->text-app, You will fail miserably,
> but luckily this is seldom the case for most of you. And you can happily
> use Linux in console instead of X.
>
> oh, well time to stop rantin and start sleeping...
>
> /Peter
> --
> Alpha Test Version:  Too buggy to be released to the paying public.
> Beta Test Version:  Still too buggy to be released.
> Release Version:  Alternate pronunciation of "Beta Test Version".
>
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> Blinux-list mailing list
> Blinux-list@redhat.com
> https://listman.redhat.com/mailman/listinfo/blinux-list
>



_______________________________________________
Blinux-list mailing list
Blinux-list@redhat.com
https://listman.redhat.com/mailman/listinfo/blinux-list

RE: The growing accessibility gap: was Ameritech.net

[Jude DaShiell]

There are secured sites at work I have access to which because of problems
I ran into with them and because sighted people checked them out with
validators have been declared inaccessible.  One of those two sites I
figured a workaround for another one is so broken it's probably going to
be scrapped.  Neither was written by my employer but my employer bought
both of them from private contractors.  Now, as for that site I figured a
workaround on one of the more competent computer users at my place of
employment who is sighted had so much trouble with that site it took him 2
days to get his work done on it for the first time.  For me it only took a
week but I got it done.

Jude <jdashiel@shellworld.net>

RE: The growing accessibility gap: was Ameritech.net

[Aman Singer]

Hi.
Small point. That two sites are inaccessible and that the sighted as well as
the blind have had trouble with them proves nothing about the language in
which they were written. I can't really think of a language that absolutely
prevents someone from making a disaster of a project, just as I can't think
of a car that prevents someone from crashing it due to inattention or
inability to drive.
Aman


Reading maketh a full man, conference a ready man, and writing an exact man.
           Francis Bacon

-----Original Message-----
From: blinux-list-admin@redhat.com
[mailto:blinux-list-admin@redhat.com]On Behalf Of Jude DaShiell
Sent: Friday, September 07, 2001 10:56 PM
To: blinux-list@redhat.com
Subject: RE: The growing accessibility gap: was Ameritech.net


There are secured sites at work I have access to which because of problems
I ran into with them and because sighted people checked them out with
validators have been declared inaccessible.  One of those two sites I
figured a workaround for another one is so broken it's probably going to
be scrapped.  Neither was written by my employer but my employer bought
both of them from private contractors.  Now, as for that site I figured a
workaround on one of the more competent computer users at my place of
employment who is sighted had so much trouble with that site it took him 2
days to get his work done on it for the first time.  For me it only took a
week but I got it done.

Jude <jdashiel@shellworld.net>




_______________________________________________
Blinux-list mailing list
Blinux-list@redhat.com
https://listman.redhat.com/mailman/listinfo/blinux-list

Re: The growing accessibility gap: was Ameritech.net

[Andor Demarteau]

On Fri, 7 Sep 2001, Jude DaShiell wrote:

 > The three companies primarily responsible for inaccessibility are sun
 > microsystems for having invented java in the first place.  Second netscape
 > for having innovated html and java.  Third Microsoft for having innovated
 > everything else.
Sorry, but I have to crrect one thing here.
Microsoft (among other things) doesn't and if you ask me can't innovate at
all.
The hole idea of graphical ui's was taken right from Macintosh who had that
kind of techonoly about 10 years before windows ever was created.
Blame it on ms though to get it mass-produced and distributed.

 > Jude <jdashiel@shellworld.net>
 > 
 > 
 > 
 > 
 > _______________________________________________
 > Blinux-list mailing list
 > Blinux-list@redhat.com
 > https://listman.redhat.com/mailman/listinfo/blinux-list
 > 

slainte mhaith (good health), slainte (cheers)
Uisce Beatha (water of live/health)
-----------
Andor Demarteau                 E-mail: ademarte@students.cs.uu.nl
student computer science        www: http://www.students.cs.uu.nl/~ademarte/
Utrecht University              irc: see webpage for details
-----------
Believe in yourself, know what you want, and make it happen!

Re: The growing accessibility gap: was Ameritech.net

[Mike Gorse]

On Sat, 8 Sep 2001, Andor Demarteau wrote:

> The hole idea of graphical ui's was taken right from Macintosh who had that
> kind of techonoly about 10 years before windows ever was created.

An Apple, in turn, got their technology from Xerox for the most part.

Re: The growing accessibility gap: was Ameritech.net

[Andor Demarteau]

On Fri, 7 Sep 2001, Jude DaShiell wrote:

 > When a computer language is written so that it's possible for stupid
 > programmers to generate garbage with it and call that finished product the
 > inventors of the language in my book take full responsibility for having
 > enabled the garbage.  html on its face before netscape and microsoft came
 > in and added their innovations was lots more accessible just using lynx
 > than most of the world-wide wait is today.
true in that respect that
a. blaming people to forget you as blind person in there desing-issues is
rightout arrogant
b. c and c++ can be graphical as well, yet I don't here discussions about
that


 > Jude <jdashiel@shellworld.net>
 > 
 > On Sat, 8 Sep 2001, Peter Toneby wrote:
 > 
 > > On Fri, Sep 07, 2001 at 05:36:26PM -0400, Jude DaShiell wrote:
 > > > The three companies primarily responsible for inaccessibility are sun
 > > > microsystems for having invented java in the first place.  Second netscape
 > > > for having innovated html and java.  Third Microsoft for having innovated
 > > > everything else.
 > >
 > > *beeep*
 > > Now this is pretty much plain wrong!!!!
 > > Java, in and on itself, is not inaccessible, it's stupid programmers
 > > that write stupid java-applets,. That should never have been possible.
 > > HTML is not netscapes fault, it w3c's, and netscape hasn't touched Java
 > > very much, IE and Netscape had java-support at the same time. And
 > > Microsoft haven't innovated shit. they have moslty bought their
 > > "innovations" and Windows is alot more accesible than linux when it
 > > comes to apps, In Linux you can't just start jaws and then pretty much
 > > any other app without problems, try and do that on linux with X (say to
 > > do something thee are no fileformat->text-app, You will fail miserably,
 > > but luckily this is seldom the case for most of you. And you can happily
 > > use Linux in console instead of X.
 > >
 > > oh, well time to stop rantin and start sleeping...
 > >
 > > /Peter
 > > --
 > > Alpha Test Version:  Too buggy to be released to the paying public.
 > > Beta Test Version:  Still too buggy to be released.
 > > Release Version:  Alternate pronunciation of "Beta Test Version".
 > >
 > >
 > >
 > > _______________________________________________
 > > Blinux-list mailing list
 > > Blinux-list@redhat.com
 > > https://listman.redhat.com/mailman/listinfo/blinux-list
 > >
 > 
 > 
 > 
 > _______________________________________________
 > Blinux-list mailing list
 > Blinux-list@redhat.com
 > https://listman.redhat.com/mailman/listinfo/blinux-list
 > 

slainte mhaith (good health), slainte (cheers)
Uisce Beatha (water of live/health)
-----------
Andor Demarteau                 E-mail: ademarte@students.cs.uu.nl
student computer science        www: http://www.students.cs.uu.nl/~ademarte/
Utrecht University              irc: see webpage for details
-----------
Believe in yourself, know what you want, and make it happen!

Re: The growing accessibility gap: was Ameritech.net

[Andor Demarteau]

On Sat, 8 Sep 2001, Mike Gorse wrote:

 > On Sat, 8 Sep 2001, Andor Demarteau wrote:
 > 
 > > The hole idea of graphical ui's was taken right from Macintosh who had that
 > > kind of techonoly about 10 years before windows ever was created.
 > 
 > An Apple, in turn, got their technology from Xerox for the most part.
Well yes, I forgot that for a second.

 > 
 > 
 > 
 > 
 > _______________________________________________
 > Blinux-list mailing list
 > Blinux-list@redhat.com
 > https://listman.redhat.com/mailman/listinfo/blinux-list
 > 

slainte mhaith (good health), slainte (cheers)
Uisce Beatha (water of live/health)
-----------
Andor Demarteau                 E-mail: ademarte@students.cs.uu.nl
student computer science        www: http://www.students.cs.uu.nl/~ademarte/
Utrecht University              irc: see webpage for details
-----------
Believe in yourself, know what you want, and make it happen!

Re: The growing accessibility gap: was Ameritech.net

[simon]

I agree,

apple still have not  been beaten by MS in the area of functioning
operating system,there biggest problem is that mac pcs  are to expencive 
Microsofts problem is that there software has more bugs than an insect
collecter 

I would be using linex more often if they had a wider range of software
available 

t 07:51 PM 9/8/01 +0200, you wrote:
>On Fri, 7 Sep 2001, Jude DaShiell wrote:
>
> > The three companies primarily responsible for inaccessibility are sun
> > microsystems for having invented java in the first place.  Second netscape
> > for having innovated html and java.  Third Microsoft for having innovated
> > everything else.
>Sorry, but I have to crrect one thing here.
>Microsoft (among other things) doesn't and if you ask me can't innovate at
>all.
>The hole idea of graphical ui's was taken right from Macintosh who had that
>kind of techonoly about 10 years before windows ever was created.
>Blame it on ms though to get it mass-produced and distributed.
>
> > Jude <jdashiel@shellworld.net>
> > 
> > 
> > 
> > 
> > _______________________________________________
> > Blinux-list mailing list
> > Blinux-list@redhat.com
> > https://listman.redhat.com/mailman/listinfo/blinux-list
> > 
>
>slainte mhaith (good health), slainte (cheers)
>Uisce Beatha (water of live/health)
>-----------
>Andor Demarteau                 E-mail: ademarte@students.cs.uu.nl
>student computer science        www: http://www.students.cs.uu.nl/~ademarte/
>Utrecht University              irc: see webpage for details
>-----------
>Believe in yourself, know what you want, and make it happen!
>
>
>
>_______________________________________________
>Blinux-list mailing list
>Blinux-list@redhat.com
>https://listman.redhat.com/mailman/listinfo/blinux-list
>

Re: The growing accessibility gap: was Ameritech.net

[Andor Demarteau]

On Sun, 9 Sep 2001, simon wrote:

 > I agree,
 > 
 > apple still have not  been beaten by MS in the area of functioning
 > operating system,there biggest problem is that mac pcs  are to expencive 
 > Microsofts problem is that there software has more bugs than an insect
 > collecter 
Imacs are not that expansive anymore.
Problem, afaik there are no braille/speech programs for the MAC, if there
are I'd really want to know about it.

 > I would be using linex more often if they had a wider range of software
 > available 
There's tons of software for linux, but maybe not what you neex exactly.
Do I have to send you the debian-package listings?

 > t 07:51 PM 9/8/01 +0200, you wrote:
 > >On Fri, 7 Sep 2001, Jude DaShiell wrote:
 > >
 > > > The three companies primarily responsible for inaccessibility are sun
 > > > microsystems for having invented java in the first place.  Second netscape
 > > > for having innovated html and java.  Third Microsoft for having innovated
 > > > everything else.
 > >Sorry, but I have to crrect one thing here.
 > >Microsoft (among other things) doesn't and if you ask me can't innovate at
 > >all.
 > >The hole idea of graphical ui's was taken right from Macintosh who had that
 > >kind of techonoly about 10 years before windows ever was created.
 > >Blame it on ms though to get it mass-produced and distributed.
 > >
 > > > Jude <jdashiel@shellworld.net>
 > > > 
 > > > 
 > > > 
 > > > 
 > > > _______________________________________________
 > > > Blinux-list mailing list
 > > > Blinux-list@redhat.com
 > > > https://listman.redhat.com/mailman/listinfo/blinux-list
 > > > 
 > >
 > >slainte mhaith (good health), slainte (cheers)
 > >Uisce Beatha (water of live/health)
 > >-----------
 > >Andor Demarteau                 E-mail: ademarte@students.cs.uu.nl
 > >student computer science        www: http://www.students.cs.uu.nl/~ademarte/
 > >Utrecht University              irc: see webpage for details
 > >-----------
 > >Believe in yourself, know what you want, and make it happen!
 > >
 > >
 > >
 > >_______________________________________________
 > >Blinux-list mailing list
 > >Blinux-list@redhat.com
 > >https://listman.redhat.com/mailman/listinfo/blinux-list
 > >
 > 
 > 
 > 
 > _______________________________________________
 > Blinux-list mailing list
 > Blinux-list@redhat.com
 > https://listman.redhat.com/mailman/listinfo/blinux-list
 > 

slainte mhaith (good health), slainte (cheers)
Uisce Beatha (water of live/health)
-----------
Andor Demarteau                 E-mail: ademarte@students.cs.uu.nl
student computer science        www: http://www.students.cs.uu.nl/~ademarte/
Utrecht University              irc: see webpage for details
-----------
Believe in yourself, know what you want, and make it happen!

Re: The growing accessibility gap: was Ameritech.net

[Saqib Shaikh]

Hi,

You were asking if there was a screen reader for the Mac.  There is one: Out
Spoken.  Versions exist both for Mac and Win.  Out Spoken has excellent
braille support and also some braille.  Visit the Alva web site.  The US
site is aagi.com, and I think the main company in Netherlands is alva.nl or
similar.

Let me know if you start using the Mac and find it usable.  Finally I'd also
like to point out that OS/2 in combination with ScreenReader/2 both from IBM
makes an excellent GUII environment for the blind.

Saqib Shaikh

Re: Ameritech.net

[Adam Bertram]

I work at an ISP in Indiana that has dialup and cable modems.  We, also, 
do not support anything other that Windoze.  Windoze is what almost 
everyone uses.  Well..at least all of the consumers that know nothing 
about anything. :)  We would just spend too much on training because about 
half of the staff already doesn't know anything other than removing a 
dialer in DUN and reinserting.  Way too much money for something that is 
not that popular with our market.  

A

---- Original message ----
>Date: Fri, 7 Sep 2001 10:05:27 -0400 (EDT)
>From: Janina Sajka <janina@afb.net>  
>Subject: Re: Ameritech.net  
>To: <blinux-list@redhat.com>
>
>John:
>
>I hope I didn't come across as anti-DSL. I love my DSL. There are 
>certainly good providers out there--folks who provide quality and 
service. 
>And, maybe the telco's are even right for some people. I suppose my point 
>is to consider what one is buying. All providers are not equal.
> On Fri, 7 
>Sep 2001, John J. Boyer wrote:
>
>> Hello,
>> We have had DSL from TDS Metrocom for about three months and have never 
had
>> down time. I think they us HPCH or some other bit of alphabet soup, but 
it's
>> not PPOE. It supports our entire office with five computers. We only had
>> tweak Windows' network settings to make it work.
>> Just a positive note amid all the negative ones.
>> John
>> 
>> Computers to Help People, Inc.
>> http://www.chpi.org
>> 825 East Johnson; Madison, WI 53703
>> 
>> 
>> ----- Original Message -----
>> From: "Janina Sajka" <janina@afb.net>
>> To: <blinux-list@redhat.com>
>> Sent: Friday, September 07, 2001 09:29
>> Subject: Re: Ameritech.net
>> 
>> 
>> > I was a Verizon DSL customer when the company was still called Bell
>> > Atlantic and when consumer DSL service was still very new beginning in
>> > February 1999. In those days, DSL customers were assigned static IPs. 
My
>> > personal experience was that the service was great when it worked, 
which
>> > wasn't quite enough of the time. I had long periods of down time--
about
>> > two weeks every three months or so. Calling tech support was a 
nightmare.
>> > First, I would sit on hold listening to the same clip of Vivaldi for 
tens
>> > of minutes. A half-hour wait was common, and the Vivaldi never
>> > changed--always the same snipit from the first movement of Spring. 
Once I
>> > got first level tier support my problems only got worse. Clearly, it 
was
>> > my fault because I wasn't in Windows. Clearly, when I rebooted into
>> > Windows, it was the screen reader. Once I pushed up to second, and 
even
>> > third tier support, it was, of course, never my fault. At least twice 
they
>> > moved me to ppoe without even telling me they were doing it. Mostly, 
they
>> > just couldn't explain it--system upgrades at the CO, please call back 
if
>> > the problem persists.
>> >
>> > I will not be a Telco DSL customer again, mostly because of their 
terrible
>> > track record with me, but also because they've moved away from DSL
>> > technology I care to buy. They have indeed found ways to provision 
DSL in
>> > ways I don't fully understand--and don't care to. It's more than 
dynamic
>> > IPs. I was surprised recently when a friend was installing Verizon 
DSL on
>> > his Windows computer--surprised to learn that the install added an 
icon to
>> > his Dial Up Networking program group.
>> >
>> > In essence, I suspect the telco's judge ip space and general network
>> > resources insuficient to support the millions of customers they want 
to
>> > sell. They want the customers money, but expect they will not use
>> > persistent connections any more than they use dial up connections. My
>> > friends DUN based DSL would disconnect on inactivity. Voice phone 
service
>> > network capacity is based, as I understand it, on the expectation 
that the
>> > average phone call will last four minutes. I'm sure they also have a
>> > number of calls per month in mind as an average. Of course, they have 
to
>> > make those kinds of predictions in order to build out adequate
>> > infrastructure. But, I have no desire to be part of a broadband 
service
>> > that expects casual and occasional web surfing. So, no more telco DSL 
for
>> > me.
>> >
>> > My advice is to seek a quality provider. My answer, for myself, was
>> > speakeasy.net for two crowning reasons:
>> >
>> > 1.) They actively support linux. In fact, I believe their servers run
>> > Redhat;
>> > 2.) They actively have no problem with home networks;
>> >
>> > Most providers have problems over linux even if their technology 
doesn't,
>> > and have fine print that prohibits multiple machines accessing the
>> > service. So, I choose to go with the provider that supports the OS and
>> > features I want and support.
>> >
>> >
>> >  On Thu, 6 Sep
>> > 2001, Karl Dahlke wrote:
>> >
>> > > For what it's worth, and it isn't worth much,
>> > > I used Ameritech dial-up service for almost a year,
>> > > and was very happy with it.
>> > > I left only because I wanted a cable modem.
>> > >
>> > > Of course I was happy because everything worked for me straight 
away,
>> > > and I didn't have to ask their technical department for help.
>> > >
>> > > I'm a bit confused by this whole thread.
>> > > I thought dsl was a static always on connection.
>> > > Why ppp?
>> > > Why pppd?
>> > > Why ppp0?
>> > > Don't they give you a box that looks like a cable modem,
>> > > with a nic interface,
>> > > and don't you just plug into that, like an ethernet?
>> > > Don't you just set up for an ethernet connection and go?
>> > > I guess I don't know much about dsl,
>> > > so I'll stop talking now,
>> > > before I do more harm than good.
>> > >
>> > > Karl
>> > >
>> > >
>> > >
>> > > _______________________________________________
>> > > Blinux-list mailing list
>> > > Blinux-list@redhat.com
>> > > https://listman.redhat.com/mailman/listinfo/blinux-list
>> > >
>> >
>> > --
>> >
>> > Janina Sajka, Director
>> > Technology Research and Development
>> > Governmental Relations Group
>> > American Foundation for the Blind (AFB)
>> >
>> > Email: janina@afb.net Phone: (202) 408-8175
>> >
>> > Chair, Accessibility SIG
>> > Open Electronic Book Forum (OEBF)
>> > http://www.openebook.org
>> >
>> > Will electronic books surpass print books? Read our white paper,
>> > Surpassing Gutenberg, at http://www.afb.org/ebook.asp
>> >
>> > Download a free sample Digital Talking Book edition of Martin Luther
>> > King Jr's inspiring "I Have A Dream" speech at
>> > http://www.afb.org/mlkweb.asp
>> >
>> > Learn how to make accessible software at
>> > http://www.afb.org/accessapp.asp
>> >
>> >
>> >
>> > _______________________________________________
>> > Blinux-list mailing list
>> > Blinux-list@redhat.com
>> > https://listman.redhat.com/mailman/listinfo/blinux-list
>> >
>> 
>> 
>> 
>> 
>> _______________________________________________
>> Blinux-list mailing list
>> Blinux-list@redhat.com
>> https://listman.redhat.com/mailman/listinfo/blinux-list
>> 
>
>-- 
>	
>				Janina Sajka, Director
>				Technology Research and Development
>				Governmental Relations Group
>				American Foundation for the Blind (AFB)
>
>Email: janina@afb.net		Phone: (202) 408-8175
>
>Chair, Accessibility SIG
>Open Electronic Book Forum (OEBF)
>http://www.openebook.org
>
>Will electronic books surpass print books? Read our white paper,
>Surpassing Gutenberg, at http://www.afb.org/ebook.asp
>
>Download a free sample Digital Talking Book edition of Martin Luther
>King Jr's inspiring "I Have A Dream" speech at
>http://www.afb.org/mlkweb.asp
>
>Learn how to make accessible software at
>http://www.afb.org/accessapp.asp
>
>
>
>_______________________________________________
>Blinux-list mailing list
>Blinux-list@redhat.com
>https://listman.redhat.com/mailman/listinfo/blinux-list