RE: Grade 2 for Brltty (fwd)

RE: Grade 2 for Brltty (fwd)

[Ian Blackburn]

hi listers 

I am a user of both braile and voice output 

I use voice for reading masses of text and braille for accuracy.  I prefer
braile and like both on the computer at the same time.  still using MS
Windows and don't like grade II braille because it is confusing with lay out
of material and although computer braille is slower it gives one for one
representation of computer characters and even spaces. example english
braille grade two has the tothe together and in print is to the this is
example of how gracde II braille can muck up screen lay out 

> ----------
> From: 	Cheryl Homiak[SMTP:chomiak@chartermi.net]
> Reply To: 	blinux-list@redhat.com
> Sent: 	Monday, 26 November 2001 23:11
> To: 	blinux-list@redhat.com
> Subject: 	Re: Grade 2 for Brltty (fwd)
> 
> I have questions re: the comments below. Actually, it is now possible for
> the user to choose from the various tables, although you do choose a
> default when compiling. Would grade two implementation for a particular
> language come in the form of other tables from which to choose? While it
> certainly might be good for people to be able to modify tables for their
> own use, I think the truth is that a lot of people using brltty might not
> have such skills, so you would have to have ready-made tables and not just
> depend on people's ability to modify.
> While having grade two would at times speed up reading, I kind of like the
> one-to-one correspondence and am not usre that having grade two might not
> sometimes be confusing. Therefore, I might find myself switching between
> the two tables and I'm not sure just how beneficial that would be to me.
> However, I have to say that I really don't have experience with a system
> that does use grade two translation for the braille display, so maybe it
> would be of more benefit than I think.
> 
> Cheryl
> 
> 
> ---------- Forwarded message ----------
> Date: Mon, 26 Nov 2001 08:57:20 -0500
> From: John J. Boyer <director@chpi.org>
> To: Dave Mielke <dave@mielke.cc>
> Cc: Cheryl Homiak <chomiak@chartermi.net>
> Subject: Re: Grade 2 for Brltty
> 
> Dave,
> You will see on the Blinux list that I have already replied to many of
> your
> questions. I feel that it is useful to have this discussed on the list.
> The user should have the capability to make changes in the translator
> easily
> by making the translation tables available in an editable form. I don't
> like
> the UEBC at all, and there is considerable doubt whether it will be
> adapted.
> In any case, the user should be able to use whatever table he wants, or to
> devise one for his own language. If the translation routines are properly
> written, it should not be necessary to hard code any of the translation.
> John
> 
> Computers to Help People, Inc.
> http://www.chpi.org
> 825 East Johnson; Madison, WI 53703
> 
> 
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: "Dave Mielke" <dave@mielke.cc>
> To: "John J. Boyer" <director@chpi.org>
> Cc: "Cheryl Homiak" <chomiak@chartermi.net>
> Sent: Monday, November 26, 2001 07:11
> Subject: Re: Grade 2 for Brltty
> 
> 
> > [quoted lines by John J. Boyer on November 25, 2001, at 10:51]
> >
> > Hi:
> >
> > >What are the plans for giving brltty Grade 2 capability.
> >
> > The topic has come up, but there are no plans yet to do it yet. That,
> howevber,
> > doesn't mean that it's a bad idea. I'm just so used to using eight-dot
> grade 1
> > braille at this point that I have a hard time imagining how such a
> feature
> > would best work. If you've used any screen readers which do offer grade
> 2
> > braille translation, how do they present it? For example, do they
> translate one
> > line at a time, compact several lines into fewer lines, apply to only a
> > rectangular subregion of the screen, or what? Assuming that the UEBC
> will
> be
> > adopted, should it be used?
> >
> > >I would be glad to
> > >help. I've written several Grade 2 translators, and I also wrote the
> Nemeth
> > >translator for MegaDots.
> >
> > Thank you for your offer. What, by the way, do you think of nfbtr?
> >
> > If we proceed, it should probably be done as an external program which
> can
> be
> > specified via a command line option to BRLTTY. This would allow a bit
> more
> > flexibility, i.e. those who speak languages other than English could,
> without
> > further modifications to BRLTTY, implement their own translators. The
> best
> > interface to such an external extension would depend on what it's
> ultimate
> > requirements are.
> >
> > >Much of my work has been done in C.
> >
> > That's a very useful skill.
> >
> > --
> > Dave Mielke           | 2213 Fox Crescent | I believe that the Bible is
> the
> > Phone: 1-613-726-0014 | Ottawa, Ontario   | Word of God. Please contact
> me
> > EMail: dave@mielke.cc | Canada  K2A 1H7   | if you're concerned about
> Hell.
> >
> >
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> _______________________________________________
> Blinux-list mailing list
> Blinux-list@redhat.com
> https://listman.redhat.com/mailman/listinfo/blinux-list
> 


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RE: Grade 2 for Brltty (fwd)

[Bill Gaughan]

I thought most grade two translators in the windows screen readers omit
trailing blank spaces anyway. So, how would grade two braille muck up the
screen format. furthermore, if one is looking at braille you only see 40
or 80 characters at a time anyway, which is hardly a screen format. blind
people don't care about format unless they are programmers, and, if they
are programmers, format, like sighted people understand it, is the most
difficult concept for a blind person to conceptualize, in my opinion. the
purpose of a good screen reader or braille reader is to give the correct,
or as correct as possible, information that we need. let sighted people
worry about bells and whistles. just my opinion, of course. I am always
glad that everyone else has their own opinions, too. that is what makes
list messaging so much fun. right?


-- 
Bill Gaughan
wgaughan@snet.net

RE: Grade 2 for Brltty (fwd)

[Dave Mielke]

[quoted lines by Ian Blackburn on December 3, 2001, at 09:59]

>I use voice for reading masses of text and braille for accuracy.  I prefer
>braile and like both on the computer at the same time.

I'm very interested in any ideas you have regarding how better speech support
could be added to BRLTTY.

>don't like grade II braille because it is confusing with lay out
>of material and although computer braille is slower it gives one for one
>representation of computer characters and even spaces.

I agree with you, but there are also situations where grade 2 braille is
better, i.e. reading lots of documentation. At such time as BRLTTY supports
grade 2 braille, it'll be by option. There'll be a toggle which can be switched
at run time to select the mode the user wishes to currently be in.

-- 
Dave Mielke           | 2213 Fox Crescent | I believe that the Bible is the
Phone: 1-613-726-0014 | Ottawa, Ontario   | Word of God. Please contact me
EMail: dave@mielke.cc | Canada  K2A 1H7   | if you're concerned about Hell.

Re: Grade 2 for Brltty (fwd)

[Cheryl Homiak]

I have questions re: the comments below. Actually, it is now possible for
the user to choose from the various tables, although you do choose a
default when compiling. Would grade two implementation for a particular
language come in the form of other tables from which to choose? While it
certainly might be good for people to be able to modify tables for their
own use, I think the truth is that a lot of people using brltty might not
have such skills, so you would have to have ready-made tables and not just
depend on people's ability to modify.
While having grade two would at times speed up reading, I kind of like the
one-to-one correspondence and am not usre that having grade two might not
sometimes be confusing. Therefore, I might find myself switching between
the two tables and I'm not sure just how beneficial that would be to me.
However, I have to say that I really don't have experience with a system
that does use grade two translation for the braille display, so maybe it
would be of more benefit than I think.

Cheryl


---------- Forwarded message ----------
Date: Mon, 26 Nov 2001 08:57:20 -0500
From: John J. Boyer <director@chpi.org>
To: Dave Mielke <dave@mielke.cc>
Cc: Cheryl Homiak <chomiak@chartermi.net>
Subject: Re: Grade 2 for Brltty

Dave,
You will see on the Blinux list that I have already replied to many of your
questions. I feel that it is useful to have this discussed on the list.
The user should have the capability to make changes in the translator easily
by making the translation tables available in an editable form. I don't like
the UEBC at all, and there is considerable doubt whether it will be adapted.
In any case, the user should be able to use whatever table he wants, or to
devise one for his own language. If the translation routines are properly
written, it should not be necessary to hard code any of the translation.
John

Computers to Help People, Inc.
http://www.chpi.org
825 East Johnson; Madison, WI 53703


----- Original Message -----
From: "Dave Mielke" <dave@mielke.cc>
To: "John J. Boyer" <director@chpi.org>
Cc: "Cheryl Homiak" <chomiak@chartermi.net>
Sent: Monday, November 26, 2001 07:11
Subject: Re: Grade 2 for Brltty


> [quoted lines by John J. Boyer on November 25, 2001, at 10:51]
>
> Hi:
>
> >What are the plans for giving brltty Grade 2 capability.
>
> The topic has come up, but there are no plans yet to do it yet. That,
howevber,
> doesn't mean that it's a bad idea. I'm just so used to using eight-dot
grade 1
> braille at this point that I have a hard time imagining how such a feature
> would best work. If you've used any screen readers which do offer grade 2
> braille translation, how do they present it? For example, do they
translate one
> line at a time, compact several lines into fewer lines, apply to only a
> rectangular subregion of the screen, or what? Assuming that the UEBC will
be
> adopted, should it be used?
>
> >I would be glad to
> >help. I've written several Grade 2 translators, and I also wrote the
Nemeth
> >translator for MegaDots.
>
> Thank you for your offer. What, by the way, do you think of nfbtr?
>
> If we proceed, it should probably be done as an external program which can
be
> specified via a command line option to BRLTTY. This would allow a bit more
> flexibility, i.e. those who speak languages other than English could,
without
> further modifications to BRLTTY, implement their own translators. The best
> interface to such an external extension would depend on what it's ultimate
> requirements are.
>
> >Much of my work has been done in C.
>
> That's a very useful skill.
>
> --
> Dave Mielke           | 2213 Fox Crescent | I believe that the Bible is
the
> Phone: 1-613-726-0014 | Ottawa, Ontario   | Word of God. Please contact me
> EMail: dave@mielke.cc | Canada  K2A 1H7   | if you're concerned about
Hell.
>
>

Re: Grade 2 for Brltty (fwd)

[John J. Boyer]

cheryl,
Grade 2 translation tables for various languages would be provided as part
of the brltty package, just as text translation tables are now.
Jaws already has Grade 2 rtranslation. I use it all the time. I think that
once you have used it for reading general material you won't want to be
without it. Of course, I switch it off to read program code, and such, but
that's just a matter of pressing a key combination on the Braille Lite.
Toggling between computer Braille and Grade 2 is very useful.
John

Computers to Help People, Inc.
http://www.chpi.org
825 East Johnson; Madison, WI 53703


----- Original Message -----
From: "Cheryl Homiak" <chomiak@chartermi.net>
To: <blinux-list@redhat.com>
Sent: Monday, November 26, 2001 10:11
Subject: Re: Grade 2 for Brltty (fwd)


> I have questions re: the comments below. Actually, it is now possible for
> the user to choose from the various tables, although you do choose a
> default when compiling. Would grade two implementation for a particular
> language come in the form of other tables from which to choose? While it
> certainly might be good for people to be able to modify tables for their
> own use, I think the truth is that a lot of people using brltty might not
> have such skills, so you would have to have ready-made tables and not just
> depend on people's ability to modify.
> While having grade two would at times speed up reading, I kind of like the
> one-to-one correspondence and am not usre that having grade two might not
> sometimes be confusing. Therefore, I might find myself switching between
> the two tables and I'm not sure just how beneficial that would be to me.
> However, I have to say that I really don't have experience with a system
> that does use grade two translation for the braille display, so maybe it
> would be of more benefit than I think.
>
> Cheryl
>
>
> ---------- Forwarded message ----------
> Date: Mon, 26 Nov 2001 08:57:20 -0500
> From: John J. Boyer <director@chpi.org>
> To: Dave Mielke <dave@mielke.cc>
> Cc: Cheryl Homiak <chomiak@chartermi.net>
> Subject: Re: Grade 2 for Brltty
>
> Dave,
> You will see on the Blinux list that I have already replied to many of
your
> questions. I feel that it is useful to have this discussed on the list.
> The user should have the capability to make changes in the translator
easily
> by making the translation tables available in an editable form. I don't
like
> the UEBC at all, and there is considerable doubt whether it will be
adapted.
> In any case, the user should be able to use whatever table he wants, or to
> devise one for his own language. If the translation routines are properly
> written, it should not be necessary to hard code any of the translation.
> John
>
> Computers to Help People, Inc.
> http://www.chpi.org
> 825 East Johnson; Madison, WI 53703
>
>
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: "Dave Mielke" <dave@mielke.cc>
> To: "John J. Boyer" <director@chpi.org>
> Cc: "Cheryl Homiak" <chomiak@chartermi.net>
> Sent: Monday, November 26, 2001 07:11
> Subject: Re: Grade 2 for Brltty
>
>
> > [quoted lines by John J. Boyer on November 25, 2001, at 10:51]
> >
> > Hi:
> >
> > >What are the plans for giving brltty Grade 2 capability.
> >
> > The topic has come up, but there are no plans yet to do it yet. That,
> howevber,
> > doesn't mean that it's a bad idea. I'm just so used to using eight-dot
> grade 1
> > braille at this point that I have a hard time imagining how such a
feature
> > would best work. If you've used any screen readers which do offer grade
2
> > braille translation, how do they present it? For example, do they
> translate one
> > line at a time, compact several lines into fewer lines, apply to only a
> > rectangular subregion of the screen, or what? Assuming that the UEBC
will
> be
> > adopted, should it be used?
> >
> > >I would be glad to
> > >help. I've written several Grade 2 translators, and I also wrote the
> Nemeth
> > >translator for MegaDots.
> >
> > Thank you for your offer. What, by the way, do you think of nfbtr?
> >
> > If we proceed, it should probably be done as an external program which
can
> be
> > specified via a command line option to BRLTTY. This would allow a bit
more
> > flexibility, i.e. those who speak languages other than English could,
> without
> > further modifications to BRLTTY, implement their own translators. The
best
> > interface to such an external extension would depend on what it's
ultimate
> > requirements are.
> >
> > >Much of my work has been done in C.
> >
> > That's a very useful skill.
> >
> > --
> > Dave Mielke           | 2213 Fox Crescent | I believe that the Bible is
> the
> > Phone: 1-613-726-0014 | Ottawa, Ontario   | Word of God. Please contact
me
> > EMail: dave@mielke.cc | Canada  K2A 1H7   | if you're concerned about
> Hell.
> >
> >
>
>
>
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> Blinux-list mailing list
> Blinux-list@redhat.com
> https://listman.redhat.com/mailman/listinfo/blinux-list
>