Re: Digital Talking Book Standard

Re: Digital Talking Book Standard

[Martin G. McCormick]

	I certainly hope that players for DTB's will be available
for Linux when the technology actually begins to bear fruit.

	This truly is a wonderful next step in the Talking Book
program. Just think of the logistical problems of moving and
caring for physical materials that this solves.  There will still
need to be traditional Talking Books for many years to come, but
I think this is the future and it may get to a point where there
won't need to be as many physical recordings produced as there
are now.

	The one thing I see as holding things up is the one
artificial technical issue and that is DRM or Digital Rights
Management.

	How is that going to be accomplished?  The standards
document simply says that digital rights management will be
supported but probably wisely does not prescribe exactly what
sort of mechanism will be used.

	Hopefully, being eligible to receive traditional Talking
Books and Braille materials will enable one to also receive any
DTB's they are entitled to receive.

	In the main-stream consumer world, digital rights
management has not been doing too well.  Some systems are hacked
almost before they are released.  Other systems tend to do the
opposite and malfunction in ways their developers never thought
of to cause honest users of the technology to be denied service.

	Some rights management systems have even gained the
distinction of suffering from both maladies.  The crackers
de fang the protection and the honest users discover that the
software thinks they are thieves because of something their
equipment or they accidentally did.

	This issue, not technology, has held up everything from
digital audio tape a decade or so ago to present-day high-definition
television systems.

	Linux and FreeBSD should actually be good test beds for
this technology because it is based on open-source models and any
hanky panky mechanisms such as back doors or scripting
applications are a little easier to police than they are in
proprietary operating systems.

Martin McCormick WB5AGZ  Stillwater, OK 
OSU Center for Computing and Information Services Network Operations Group

Re: Digital Talking Book Standard

[Saqib Shaikh]

While only an idea,

I have considered writing a digital talking book player for my final year
project.  I'm not sure how hard this will be, but if it is within my
technical grasp to do an initial version I will do it!

Saqib Shaikh
Email: ss@saqibshaikh.com
Web site: http://www.saqibshaikh.com/

Re: Digital Talking Book Standard

[Peter Toneby]

On Mon, Nov 19, 2001 at 03:17:48PM -0000, Saqib Shaikh wrote:
> While only an idea,
> 
> I have considered writing a digital talking book player for my final year
> project.  I'm not sure how hard this will be, but if it is within my
> technical grasp to do an initial version I will do it!

It shouldn't be to hard for you as a CS-student, I've got a start for
one, but I'm missing a (free) mp3-library with good support for
searching on timecodes in the mp3-file, this is needed to support DTBs
in a good way. I've only found a non-free lib :(.

In general since everyhting is XML-based it's fairly easy to implement a
simple reader that presents a lynxlike UI and that plays the music, but
since you might want to add more UI-types, such as speech, linebased
(like ed), and even a full graphical GUI (hey, we seeing people does
enjoy DTB as much as you blind guys do, and we like our GUIs (most of us
at least) :), and there is much more that can be added, the project can
grow quite a bit out of hand...

/Peter, who has to little time, and to many projects...
-- 
Alpha Test Version:  Too buggy to be released to the paying public. 
Beta Test Version:  Still too buggy to be released. 
Release Version:  Alternate pronunciation of "Beta Test Version". 

Re: Digital Talking Book Standard

[Janina Sajka]

[-- Attachment #1: Type: TEXT/PLAIN, Size: 1868 bytes --]

What about freeamp?

Also, there's a set of perl modules for smil (see attached message).

On Mon, 19 Nov 2001, Peter Toneby wrote:

> On Mon, Nov 19, 2001 at 03:17:48PM -0000, Saqib Shaikh wrote:
> > While only an idea,
> > 
> > I have considered writing a digital talking book player for my final year
> > project.  I'm not sure how hard this will be, but if it is within my
> > technical grasp to do an initial version I will do it!
> 
> It shouldn't be to hard for you as a CS-student, I've got a start for
> one, but I'm missing a (free) mp3-library with good support for
> searching on timecodes in the mp3-file, this is needed to support DTBs
> in a good way. I've only found a non-free lib :(.
> 
> In general since everyhting is XML-based it's fairly easy to implement a
> simple reader that presents a lynxlike UI and that plays the music, but
> since you might want to add more UI-types, such as speech, linebased
> (like ed), and even a full graphical GUI (hey, we seeing people does
> enjoy DTB as much as you blind guys do, and we like our GUIs (most of us
> at least) :), and there is much more that can be added, the project can
> grow quite a bit out of hand...
> 
> /Peter, who has to little time, and to many projects...
> 

-- 
	
				Janina Sajka, Director
				Technology Research and Development
				Governmental Relations Group
				American Foundation for the Blind (AFB)

Email: janina@afb.net		Phone: (202) 408-8175

Chair, Accessibility SIG
Open Electronic Book Forum (OEBF)
http://www.openebook.org

Will electronic books surpass print books? Read our white paper,
Surpassing Gutenberg, at http://www.afb.org/ebook.asp

Download a free sample Digital Talking Book edition of Martin Luther
King Jr's inspiring "I Have A Dream" speech at
http://www.afb.org/mlkweb.asp

Learn how to make accessible software at
http://www.afb.org/accessapp.asp


[-- Attachment #2: Type: TEXT/PLAIN, Size: 3227 bytes --]

From perlysmil@webiphany.com Mon Nov 19 11:13:51 2001
From: PerlySMIL <perlysmil@webiphany.com>

Hello there,

I've made some changes to Smil.pm (PerlySMIL) that I 
wanted to let people know about.  PerlySMIL is now on 
version 0.86, and that version is uploaded to CPAN.

1.  Better documentation
2.  Scripts now available online
3.  RealText module and Smil.pm support
4.  SMIL 2.0 initial support

First, I've hopefully improved the documentation for the
methods exposed by this module.  If you visit 
http://www.webiphany.com/perlysmil you will now notice 
a "METHODS" section under the perldoc documentation.
This is a comprehensive list of all the methods which
are "public" for this module.  I wasn't sure if these
were obvious to people, but this should give you a handy 
guide when writing scripts, supplementing the examples 
in the documentation above it.

Second, I've added links on the website to all the scripts 
which come with the distribution.  So, if you used CPAN.pm
to install the module and don't know exactly where those
example scripts are, you can also find them on the website 
under the link marked "Sample scripts".

Third, there is a new module accompanying Smil.pm. It is
called RN::RealText.pm and is the beginning of support for 
RealText authoring in Perl.  There are only two methods, 
the constructor to create the object ("new") and the method
"addCode", which adds RealText code to object.  This isn't 
so special in itself except that Smil.pm can now accept 
objects with the same interface and inline them directly 
within your SMIL code.  For an example of this please 
check out the "smil2.pl" script in the example scripts.  
I will be adding more methods to the RealText module, and 
also perhaps adding more modules which can be used in the 
same way, like RealPix, for starters.

Finally, there is a the beginnings of support for SMIL 2.0 
extensions.  SMIL 2.0 is here with the arrival of RealOne 
from RealNetworks.  I would highly suggest downloading
and playing with this amazing piece of software.  You can 
find RealOne at http://www.realnetworks.com/.  To support
SMIL 2.0 I've begun thinking about how Smil.pm will change.
I've added a method for creating transitions, and I have
stubbed out a method (another way of saying I was too lazy
to finish it) which will permit an author to add animations.  
So, this is a quick preview of the way that PerlySMIL will 
handle SMIL 2.0.  The primary goal is of course to maintain 
backwards compatibility with Smil.pm scripts written for 
SMIL 1.0 players.  A few examples of these methods are in 
the smil2.pl script in the installation directory.  

Thanks for listening.  If you have suggestions or comments, 
I am always interested to hear them.  Also, I would like 
to take this opportunity to ask people to drop me a little
note if they are using PerlySMIL for anything interesting 
that they care to talk about.  I would personally love to
hear about it, and I would also like to host interesting
applications in a new section on the website, if people 
have stories to tell.

Bye,
Chris, chief dentician of PerlySMIL 
http://www.webiphany.com/perlysmil/

Re: Digital Talking Book Standard

[Nicolas Pitre]

On Mon, 19 Nov 2001, Peter Toneby wrote:

> It shouldn't be to hard for you as a CS-student, I've got a start for
> one, but I'm missing a (free) mp3-library with good support for
> searching on timecodes in the mp3-file, this is needed to support DTBs
> in a good way. I've only found a non-free lib :(.

Have a look at MAD:
http://www.mars.org/home/rob/proj/mpeg/

> /Peter, who has to little time, and to many projects...

/Nicolas, who designed and implemented the firmware for the Victor digital 
book player about 3 years ago while working for VisuAide Inc.

Re: Digital Talking Book Standard

[Peter Toneby]

On Mon, Nov 19, 2001 at 11:14:39AM -0500, Janina Sajka wrote:
> What about freeamp?

It does not support searches on timecode (at least I didn't see anything
about that while checking their pages, they only seem to have normal
seek in files, which is not enough).

> Also, there's a set of perl modules for smil (see attached message).

They might be handy, if I had used perl :), I prefer Python, but it's an
easy task to write the code to parse smil-files, since they do not
require rendering, like the xhtml-files do.

/Peter
-- 
Alpha Test Version:  Too buggy to be released to the paying public. 
Beta Test Version:  Still too buggy to be released. 
Release Version:  Alternate pronunciation of "Beta Test Version". 

Re: Digital Talking Book Standard

[Nicolas Pitre]

On Mon, 19 Nov 2001, Peter Toneby wrote:

> On Mon, Nov 19, 2001 at 11:14:39AM -0500, Janina Sajka wrote:
> > What about freeamp?
> 
> It does not support searches on timecode (at least I didn't see anything
> about that while checking their pages, they only seem to have normal
> seek in files, which is not enough).

Well... It is enough with some extra processing. You need to find out the
data bitrate, estimate the seek position in the audio file, resynchronize on
a mpeg frame boundary, back a couple frames, compute the backed frames to
restabilize the mpeg windowing factors without actually playing them then
finally resume audio from the desired frame.


Nicolas

Re: Digital Talking Book Standard

[Peter Toneby]

On Mon, Nov 19, 2001 at 11:25:35AM -0500, Nicolas Pitre wrote:
> On Mon, 19 Nov 2001, Peter Toneby wrote:
> 
> > It shouldn't be to hard for you as a CS-student, I've got a start for
> > one, but I'm missing a (free) mp3-library with good support for
> > searching on timecodes in the mp3-file, this is needed to support DTBs
> > in a good way. I've only found a non-free lib :(.
> 
> Have a look at MAD:
> http://www.mars.org/home/rob/proj/mpeg/

they did not have a function to search, but it might be possible to
implement one, not sure yet though

/Peter
-- 
Alpha Test Version:  Too buggy to be released to the paying public. 
Beta Test Version:  Still too buggy to be released. 
Release Version:  Alternate pronunciation of "Beta Test Version". 

Re: Digital Talking Book Standard

[Peter Toneby]

On Mon, Nov 19, 2001 at 11:35:59AM -0500, Nicolas Pitre wrote:
> On Mon, 19 Nov 2001, Peter Toneby wrote:
> 
> > On Mon, Nov 19, 2001 at 11:14:39AM -0500, Janina Sajka wrote:
> > > What about freeamp?
> > 
> > It does not support searches on timecode (at least I didn't see anything
> > about that while checking their pages, they only seem to have normal
> > seek in files, which is not enough).
> 
> Well... It is enough with some extra processing. You need to find out the
> data bitrate, estimate the seek position in the audio file, resynchronize on
> a mpeg frame boundary, back a couple frames, compute the backed frames to
> restabilize the mpeg windowing factors without actually playing them then
> finally resume audio from the desired frame.

The problem is VBR, I'm not sure how it works, but I suspect each frame
have it's own bitrate in that case, and if the stream use that, you need
to loop through all frames and calculate the current time :(, well, I'll
have a closer look at mad and see if I can do something for fixed
bitrates at least.

/Peter
-- 
Alpha Test Version:  Too buggy to be released to the paying public. 
Beta Test Version:  Still too buggy to be released. 
Release Version:  Alternate pronunciation of "Beta Test Version". 

Re: Digital Talking Book Standard

[Janina Sajka]

Martin, your message is apt and to the point. And, your instinct for a 
FREE software digital talking book player is also on the mark. Now is a 
very, very good time for such a player to come into existence. As someone 
who continues to be very involved in the development of the NISO/DAISY dtb 
standard, I'd like to pose a challenge to the programmers among us:

Please give us a dtb player or two which supports the new NISO/DAISY 
standards--mostly. I say"mostly" because it is not the end of the world if 
you can't immediately support MPEG. Please know that the NISO/DAISY 
standards people are keenly aware of the problems posed by specifying 
MPEG. Regretably, ogg-vorbis was not judged ready for prime time yet--so 
if someone wants to work on that, that would also be helpful, because we 
truly need a GPL compression package that provides quality files that will 
compete well with MPEG.

Let me say why we need a GPL dtb player right now. I am seriously 
concerned that agencies will impose some kind of encryption technologies 
which they will not want to describe to GPL programmers. That would be 
most unfortunate. Far better, imho, for this community to show that a GPL 
player can really do the job of accessing (both text and audio) dtbs well. 
Far better to show that public/private key encryption may just be adequate 
enough.

The pendulum has swung away from tight controls, at least among the 
libraries that serve our communities today. Frankly, the earlier version 
of the NISO standard was a bit stricter about copyright enforcement--what 
the publishers like to call "Digital Rights Management." I think even our 
earlier, stricter model was still smarter than what we've been seeing from 
commercial ebook publishers. The commercial publishers are putting the 
onus on the user and are killing industry prospects by doing so. The 
earlier recommendations are still online at:

	http://www.loc.gov/nls/niso/drm.htm

In summary, this earlier document expects that some, but certainly not 
all, titles produced as digital talking books will need to be restricted 
to qualified recipients in order to maintain long standing programs of 
free access to books--as with NLS here in the U.S. This would also apply 
to U.S. agencies such as RFB&D. It would, in fact, be the copyright 
management scheme which would distinguish titles produced in the NISO 
standard as qualified titles under the so-called "Chafee Amendement" to 
U.S. Copyright law. Chafee is a good thing, and we should not lose it.

The DMCA is another matter entirely. The NISO thinking was to put the 
emphasis on catching willful violaters, not on needlessly encumbering 
honest users. My expectation is that public/private key can do this very 
well--and can do it in a platform independ matter.

Of course there's a chicken and egg aspect to all of this. Who would build 
a player when there's nothing to play? How would one even test it? Yet, I 
would think that this community would not want to leave the definitions of 
what's possible to agencies who are far more steeped in proprietary 
software than is probably good for the community at large. So, let me 
simply offer this: I will find some NISO/DAISY content for you to test a 
player with if you are building a GPL player and need something to work 
with. Just write me privately.

Lastly, let me say just a little more about how much content is actually 
out there. There is virtually none in the newest version of the standard 
simply because it's still not 100% nailed down. The NISO folks have until 
December 17 to vote on the specifications that were submitted to them just 
a few weeks ago. You should know that we truly do not expect any problems 
with this voting, and we do expect a lovely Christmas pressent shortly 
after December 17.

There is a fair amount of content available to earlier incarnations of the 
digital talking book specifications as produced by DAISY. In particular, 
it may be important for players to support the new NISO/DAISY 
specifications at:

	http://www.loc.gov/nls/niso

as well as the older, DAISY 2.0 specifications which can be found at:

	http://www.daisy.org

In particular, RFB&D has been quietly testing textbooks in several K-12 
schools for blind children around the U.S. They are hoping to begin 
offering about 3,000 titles encoded in DAISY 2.0 to all their clients 
sometime during 2002. Also, the talking book programs at CNIB and RNIB 
(U.K.) are expecting to launch programs for their clients in the spring of 
2002 with approximately2,500 titles in each. So, as you can see, content 
does already exist in the older DAISY 2.0 specification, though it is not 
yet generally available.

Last point on the encryption issues. We expect that whatever copyright 
based encryption/decryption is involved needs to be nationally based. In 
other words, the laws that authorize free programs for blind (and 
otherwise print disabled) people differ country to country. So, any 
support for a particular solution needs to be modular in order to handle 
such national differences.

I want to end on a more cheerful point. Even mainstream publishers are 
beginning to realize that encumbering users is a bad way to promote the 
value of electronic publishing. Please take a look at this website:

	http://www.openanebook.org

It is intended to be a place for publishers of all kinds to offer their
free content and their free tools. So, if you know of any, please offer
them up there. And, if you have influence with any blindness agency or
ebook publishers, please get them to join DAISY and/or OEBF. We need
broader participation in both places in order to realize a vision of
epublishing which creates accessible titles that are comfortable and fun
to use while still paying authors and editors for the value they add.


 On 
Mon, 19 Nov 2001, Martin G. McCormick wrote:

> 	I certainly hope that players for DTB's will be available
> for Linux when the technology actually begins to bear fruit.
> 
> 	This truly is a wonderful next step in the Talking Book
> program. Just think of the logistical problems of moving and
> caring for physical materials that this solves.  There will still
> need to be traditional Talking Books for many years to come, but
> I think this is the future and it may get to a point where there
> won't need to be as many physical recordings produced as there
> are now.
> 
> 	The one thing I see as holding things up is the one
> artificial technical issue and that is DRM or Digital Rights
> Management.
> 
> 	How is that going to be accomplished?  The standards
> document simply says that digital rights management will be
> supported but probably wisely does not prescribe exactly what
> sort of mechanism will be used.
> 
> 	Hopefully, being eligible to receive traditional Talking
> Books and Braille materials will enable one to also receive any
> DTB's they are entitled to receive.
> 
> 	In the main-stream consumer world, digital rights
> management has not been doing too well.  Some systems are hacked
> almost before they are released.  Other systems tend to do the
> opposite and malfunction in ways their developers never thought
> of to cause honest users of the technology to be denied service.
> 
> 	Some rights management systems have even gained the
> distinction of suffering from both maladies.  The crackers
> de fang the protection and the honest users discover that the
> software thinks they are thieves because of something their
> equipment or they accidentally did.
> 
> 	This issue, not technology, has held up everything from
> digital audio tape a decade or so ago to present-day high-definition
> television systems.
> 
> 	Linux and FreeBSD should actually be good test beds for
> this technology because it is based on open-source models and any
> hanky panky mechanisms such as back doors or scripting
> applications are a little easier to police than they are in
> proprietary operating systems.
> 
> Martin McCormick WB5AGZ  Stillwater, OK 
> OSU Center for Computing and Information Services Network Operations Group
> 
> 
> 
> _______________________________________________
> Blinux-list mailing list
> Blinux-list@redhat.com
> https://listman.redhat.com/mailman/listinfo/blinux-list
> 

-- 
	
				Janina Sajka, Director
				Technology Research and Development
				Governmental Relations Group
				American Foundation for the Blind (AFB)

Email: janina@afb.net		Phone: (202) 408-8175

Chair, Accessibility SIG
Open Electronic Book Forum (OEBF)
http://www.openebook.org

Will electronic books surpass print books? Read our white paper,
Surpassing Gutenberg, at http://www.afb.org/ebook.asp

Download a free sample Digital Talking Book edition of Martin Luther
King Jr's inspiring "I Have A Dream" speech at
http://www.afb.org/mlkweb.asp

Learn how to make accessible software at
http://www.afb.org/accessapp.asp

Re: Digital Talking Book Standard

[Janina Sajka]

On Mon, 19 Nov 2001, Nicolas Pitre wrote:

> /Nicolas, who designed and implemented the firmware for the Victor digital 
> book player about 3 years ago while working for VisuAide Inc.
> 
You did? The Victor is very, very cool. Are you responsible for the simple 
navigation mapping, i.e. the 4 and 6 keys for forward and back, and the 2 
and 8 keys for navigating through the various levels?

Re: Digital Talking Book Standard

[Lloyd G. Rasmussen]

In the NISO standard, we're not allowing variable bit rate, for the reasons
outlined below.  I haven't seen huge space savings for voice recordings.

At 05:43 PM 11/19/01 +0100, you wrote:
>On Mon, Nov 19, 2001 at 11:35:59AM -0500, Nicolas Pitre wrote:
>> On Mon, 19 Nov 2001, Peter Toneby wrote:
>> 
>> > On Mon, Nov 19, 2001 at 11:14:39AM -0500, Janina Sajka wrote:
>> > > What about freeamp?
>> > 
>> > It does not support searches on timecode (at least I didn't see anything
>> > about that while checking their pages, they only seem to have normal
>> > seek in files, which is not enough).
>> 
>> Well... It is enough with some extra processing. You need to find out the
>> data bitrate, estimate the seek position in the audio file,
resynchronize on
>> a mpeg frame boundary, back a couple frames, compute the backed frames to
>> restabilize the mpeg windowing factors without actually playing them then
>> finally resume audio from the desired frame.
>
>The problem is VBR, I'm not sure how it works, but I suspect each frame
>have it's own bitrate in that case, and if the stream use that, you need
>to loop through all frames and calculate the current time :(, well, I'll
>have a closer look at mad and see if I can do something for fixed
>bitrates at least.
>
>/Peter

Braille is the solution to the digital divide.
Lloyd Rasmussen, Senior Staff Engineer
National Library Service f/t Blind and Physically Handicapped
Library of Congress    (202) 707-0535  <lras@loc.gov>
<http://www.loc.gov/nls>
HOME:  <lras@sprynet.com>       <http://lras.home.sprynet.com>

Re: Digital Talking Book Standard

[Brent Harding]

I don't think the drm will work in the long run. It has to be proprietary
to not allow hacking, anyone who has the source code can hack a program to
undo what the original did. I heard some of the stronger drm's out
interfere with screen reader use, meaning we're stepping backwards in
accessibility, as we'd have to have sighted help to read a book we once
could get in speech on the computer because of this technology, and the way
screen readers access the system.
At 09:00 AM 11/19/01 -0600, you wrote:
>	I certainly hope that players for DTB's will be available
>for Linux when the technology actually begins to bear fruit.
>
>	This truly is a wonderful next step in the Talking Book
>program. Just think of the logistical problems of moving and
>caring for physical materials that this solves.  There will still
>need to be traditional Talking Books for many years to come, but
>I think this is the future and it may get to a point where there
>won't need to be as many physical recordings produced as there
>are now.
>
>	The one thing I see as holding things up is the one
>artificial technical issue and that is DRM or Digital Rights
>Management.
>
>	How is that going to be accomplished?  The standards
>document simply says that digital rights management will be
>supported but probably wisely does not prescribe exactly what
>sort of mechanism will be used.
>
>	Hopefully, being eligible to receive traditional Talking
>Books and Braille materials will enable one to also receive any
>DTB's they are entitled to receive.
>
>	In the main-stream consumer world, digital rights
>management has not been doing too well.  Some systems are hacked
>almost before they are released.  Other systems tend to do the
>opposite and malfunction in ways their developers never thought
>of to cause honest users of the technology to be denied service.
>
>	Some rights management systems have even gained the
>distinction of suffering from both maladies.  The crackers
>de fang the protection and the honest users discover that the
>software thinks they are thieves because of something their
>equipment or they accidentally did.
>
>	This issue, not technology, has held up everything from
>digital audio tape a decade or so ago to present-day high-definition
>television systems.
>
>	Linux and FreeBSD should actually be good test beds for
>this technology because it is based on open-source models and any
>hanky panky mechanisms such as back doors or scripting
>applications are a little easier to police than they are in
>proprietary operating systems.
>
>Martin McCormick WB5AGZ  Stillwater, OK 
>OSU Center for Computing and Information Services Network Operations Group
>
>
>
>_______________________________________________
>Blinux-list mailing list
>Blinux-list@redhat.com
>https://listman.redhat.com/mailman/listinfo/blinux-list
>
>

Re: Digital Talking Book Standard

[Nicolas Pitre]

On Mon, 19 Nov 2001, Peter Toneby wrote:

> On Mon, Nov 19, 2001 at 11:35:59AM -0500, Nicolas Pitre wrote:
> > On Mon, 19 Nov 2001, Peter Toneby wrote:
> > 
> > > On Mon, Nov 19, 2001 at 11:14:39AM -0500, Janina Sajka wrote:
> > > > What about freeamp?
> > > 
> > > It does not support searches on timecode (at least I didn't see anything
> > > about that while checking their pages, they only seem to have normal
> > > seek in files, which is not enough).
> > 
> > Well... It is enough with some extra processing. You need to find out the
> > data bitrate, estimate the seek position in the audio file, resynchronize on
> > a mpeg frame boundary, back a couple frames, compute the backed frames to
> > restabilize the mpeg windowing factors without actually playing them then
> > finally resume audio from the desired frame.
> 
> The problem is VBR, I'm not sure how it works, but I suspect each frame
> have it's own bitrate in that case, and if the stream use that, you need
> to loop through all frames and calculate the current time :(, well, I'll
> have a closer look at mad and see if I can do something for fixed
> bitrates at least.

No one can expect to use VBR in a talking book format and hope for snappy 
random seeks in the audio unless the indexing format now includes hard file 
offsets in bytes.  Last time I had to deal with that it wasn't the case and 
therefore VBR wasn't used either.


Nicolas

Re: Digital Talking Book Standard

[Nicolas Pitre]

On Mon, 19 Nov 2001, Janina Sajka wrote:

> On Mon, 19 Nov 2001, Nicolas Pitre wrote:
> 
> > /Nicolas, who designed and implemented the firmware for the Victor digital 
> > book player about 3 years ago while working for VisuAide Inc.
> > 
> You did? The Victor is very, very cool. Are you responsible for the simple 
> navigation mapping, i.e. the 4 and 6 keys for forward and back, and the 2 
> and 8 keys for navigating through the various levels?

Well... We debated a lot on the best user interface at the time and I 
certainly took an active part of it.  But I'm definitively responsible for 
most of Victor's software implementation.

And... just to please everyone on this list: Victor is runing Linux inside.


Nicolas

Re: Digital Talking Book Standard

[Buddy Brannan]

On Mon, Nov 19, 2001 at 11:06:39AM -0600, Brent Harding wrote:
> I don't think the drm will work in the long run. It has to be proprietary
> to not allow hacking, anyone who has the source code can hack a program to
> undo what the original did. 

Anything (proprietary or not) can be hacked, given enough time and
skill. This has to be the worst argument for proprietary software I've
seen. As I've seen written somewhere...security by obscurity is no
security at all. What does a proprietary security system have that a
free one doesn't have? Well, let's see. No checks against sloppy
programming. Look at the deal with Adobe's Ebook format; that Russian
fellow found a way to get into it, gave a talk about it, and was
arrested, jailed, and is now on trial for copyright infringement. Did
he actually infringe anyone's copyright? Did he actually steal
anyone's work? No, he pointed out a security flaw and told someone how
it could be exploited. Rather than being glad of the feedback so the
problem could be fixed, Adobe sent the feds after him! That isn't
security. Now if these guys had used a free standard, any security
holes could be found and addressed. It's a much better deal for
everyone. And eventually (I say eventually because human beings are
pretty stupid about things sometimes), people who should already know
better but don't will see that free software really is good for all of
us. I firmly believe that that is where our future lies.
-- 
Buddy Brannan, KB5ELV    | From the pines down to the projects,
Email: davros@ycardz.com | Life pushes up through the cracks.
Phone: (972) 276-6360    | And it's only going forward,
ICQ: 36621210            | And it's never going back.--Small Potatoes

Re: Digital Talking Book Standard

[Janina Sajka]

On Mon, 19 Nov 2001, Nicolas Pitre wrote:

> 
> And... just to please everyone on this list: Victor is runing Linux inside.
> 
And, it has a most tantalizing db9 port on the back. Sure looks like a 
serial port to me. Don't suppose it supports login over that port, now, 
does it?? <grin>

 > 
> Nicolas
> 
> 
> 
> _______________________________________________
> Blinux-list mailing list
> Blinux-list@redhat.com
> https://listman.redhat.com/mailman/listinfo/blinux-list
> 

-- 
	
				Janina Sajka, Director
				Technology Research and Development
				Governmental Relations Group
				American Foundation for the Blind (AFB)

Email: janina@afb.net		Phone: (202) 408-8175

Chair, Accessibility SIG
Open Electronic Book Forum (OEBF)
http://www.openebook.org

Will electronic books surpass print books? Read our white paper,
Surpassing Gutenberg, at http://www.afb.org/ebook.asp

Download a free sample Digital Talking Book edition of Martin Luther
King Jr's inspiring "I Have A Dream" speech at
http://www.afb.org/mlkweb.asp

Learn how to make accessible software at
http://www.afb.org/accessapp.asp

Re: Digital Talking Book Standard

[Nicolas Pitre]

On Mon, 19 Nov 2001, Janina Sajka wrote:

> On Mon, 19 Nov 2001, Nicolas Pitre wrote:
> 
> > 
> > And... just to please everyone on this list: Victor is runing Linux inside.
> > 
> And, it has a most tantalizing db9 port on the back. Sure looks like a 
> serial port to me. Don't suppose it supports login over that port, now, 
> does it?? <grin>

Well... it could but shipped units don't have any shell of any kind but only 
the player software as their only process.


Nicolas

Re: Digital Talking Book Standard

[philwh]

Hi.
Just for your info,
the victor player built in canada
uses linux as its basis.

phil

Re: Digital Talking Book Standard

[Brent Harding]

Wow, so how would the public/private key encryption work to get the books
rolling? I suppose, using something like pgp, I could generate you a key if
I were the publisher and send it to you on a disk, and encrypt all the
content I want you to have with it. But this involves a manual process for
every individual. Thus for example, pgp shoutcast can't exist, in the
current protocols since only one key can decrypt any one data stream. And
also, some how you have to turn the encrypted content in to audio that can
be transmitted through such things if you wanted a pay to hear audio stream
for whatever it be. I was thinking of the idea once, but winamp would choke
on the encrypted mp3 stream and refuse to transmit it, although in linux to
decode you could theoretically do something like
lynx --source http://aaa.bbb.ccc.ddd:port | pgp -d 
and enter your password for your private key.
At 11:46 AM 11/19/01 -0500, you wrote:
>Martin, your message is apt and to the point. And, your instinct for a 
>FREE software digital talking book player is also on the mark. Now is a 
>very, very good time for such a player to come into existence. As someone 
>who continues to be very involved in the development of the NISO/DAISY dtb 
>standard, I'd like to pose a challenge to the programmers among us:
>
>Please give us a dtb player or two which supports the new NISO/DAISY 
>standards--mostly. I say"mostly" because it is not the end of the world if 
>you can't immediately support MPEG. Please know that the NISO/DAISY 
>standards people are keenly aware of the problems posed by specifying 
>MPEG. Regretably, ogg-vorbis was not judged ready for prime time yet--so 
>if someone wants to work on that, that would also be helpful, because we 
>truly need a GPL compression package that provides quality files that will 
>compete well with MPEG.
>
>Let me say why we need a GPL dtb player right now. I am seriously 
>concerned that agencies will impose some kind of encryption technologies 
>which they will not want to describe to GPL programmers. That would be 
>most unfortunate. Far better, imho, for this community to show that a GPL 
>player can really do the job of accessing (both text and audio) dtbs well. 
>Far better to show that public/private key encryption may just be adequate 
>enough.
>
>The pendulum has swung away from tight controls, at least among the 
>libraries that serve our communities today. Frankly, the earlier version 
>of the NISO standard was a bit stricter about copyright enforcement--what 
>the publishers like to call "Digital Rights Management." I think even our 
>earlier, stricter model was still smarter than what we've been seeing from 
>commercial ebook publishers. The commercial publishers are putting the 
>onus on the user and are killing industry prospects by doing so. The 
>earlier recommendations are still online at:
>
>	http://www.loc.gov/nls/niso/drm.htm
>
>In summary, this earlier document expects that some, but certainly not 
>all, titles produced as digital talking books will need to be restricted 
>to qualified recipients in order to maintain long standing programs of 
>free access to books--as with NLS here in the U.S. This would also apply 
>to U.S. agencies such as RFB&D. It would, in fact, be the copyright 
>management scheme which would distinguish titles produced in the NISO 
>standard as qualified titles under the so-called "Chafee Amendement" to 
>U.S. Copyright law. Chafee is a good thing, and we should not lose it.
>
>The DMCA is another matter entirely. The NISO thinking was to put the 
>emphasis on catching willful violaters, not on needlessly encumbering 
>honest users. My expectation is that public/private key can do this very 
>well--and can do it in a platform independ matter.
>
>Of course there's a chicken and egg aspect to all of this. Who would build 
>a player when there's nothing to play? How would one even test it? Yet, I 
>would think that this community would not want to leave the definitions of 
>what's possible to agencies who are far more steeped in proprietary 
>software than is probably good for the community at large. So, let me 
>simply offer this: I will find some NISO/DAISY content for you to test a 
>player with if you are building a GPL player and need something to work 
>with. Just write me privately.
>
>Lastly, let me say just a little more about how much content is actually 
>out there. There is virtually none in the newest version of the standard 
>simply because it's still not 100% nailed down. The NISO folks have until 
>December 17 to vote on the specifications that were submitted to them just 
>a few weeks ago. You should know that we truly do not expect any problems 
>with this voting, and we do expect a lovely Christmas pressent shortly 
>after December 17.
>
>There is a fair amount of content available to earlier incarnations of the 
>digital talking book specifications as produced by DAISY. In particular, 
>it may be important for players to support the new NISO/DAISY 
>specifications at:
>
>	http://www.loc.gov/nls/niso
>
>as well as the older, DAISY 2.0 specifications which can be found at:
>
>	http://www.daisy.org
>
>In particular, RFB&D has been quietly testing textbooks in several K-12 
>schools for blind children around the U.S. They are hoping to begin 
>offering about 3,000 titles encoded in DAISY 2.0 to all their clients 
>sometime during 2002. Also, the talking book programs at CNIB and RNIB 
>(U.K.) are expecting to launch programs for their clients in the spring of 
>2002 with approximately2,500 titles in each. So, as you can see, content 
>does already exist in the older DAISY 2.0 specification, though it is not 
>yet generally available.
>
>Last point on the encryption issues. We expect that whatever copyright 
>based encryption/decryption is involved needs to be nationally based. In 
>other words, the laws that authorize free programs for blind (and 
>otherwise print disabled) people differ country to country. So, any 
>support for a particular solution needs to be modular in order to handle 
>such national differences.
>
>I want to end on a more cheerful point. Even mainstream publishers are 
>beginning to realize that encumbering users is a bad way to promote the 
>value of electronic publishing. Please take a look at this website:
>
>	http://www.openanebook.org
>
>It is intended to be a place for publishers of all kinds to offer their
>free content and their free tools. So, if you know of any, please offer
>them up there. And, if you have influence with any blindness agency or
>ebook publishers, please get them to join DAISY and/or OEBF. We need
>broader participation in both places in order to realize a vision of
>epublishing which creates accessible titles that are comfortable and fun
>to use while still paying authors and editors for the value they add.
>
>
> On 
>Mon, 19 Nov 2001, Martin G. McCormick wrote:
>
>> 	I certainly hope that players for DTB's will be available
>> for Linux when the technology actually begins to bear fruit.
>> 
>> 	This truly is a wonderful next step in the Talking Book
>> program. Just think of the logistical problems of moving and
>> caring for physical materials that this solves.  There will still
>> need to be traditional Talking Books for many years to come, but
>> I think this is the future and it may get to a point where there
>> won't need to be as many physical recordings produced as there
>> are now.
>> 
>> 	The one thing I see as holding things up is the one
>> artificial technical issue and that is DRM or Digital Rights
>> Management.
>> 
>> 	How is that going to be accomplished?  The standards
>> document simply says that digital rights management will be
>> supported but probably wisely does not prescribe exactly what
>> sort of mechanism will be used.
>> 
>> 	Hopefully, being eligible to receive traditional Talking
>> Books and Braille materials will enable one to also receive any
>> DTB's they are entitled to receive.
>> 
>> 	In the main-stream consumer world, digital rights
>> management has not been doing too well.  Some systems are hacked
>> almost before they are released.  Other systems tend to do the
>> opposite and malfunction in ways their developers never thought
>> of to cause honest users of the technology to be denied service.
>> 
>> 	Some rights management systems have even gained the
>> distinction of suffering from both maladies.  The crackers
>> de fang the protection and the honest users discover that the
>> software thinks they are thieves because of something their
>> equipment or they accidentally did.
>> 
>> 	This issue, not technology, has held up everything from
>> digital audio tape a decade or so ago to present-day high-definition
>> television systems.
>> 
>> 	Linux and FreeBSD should actually be good test beds for
>> this technology because it is based on open-source models and any
>> hanky panky mechanisms such as back doors or scripting
>> applications are a little easier to police than they are in
>> proprietary operating systems.
>> 
>> Martin McCormick WB5AGZ  Stillwater, OK 
>> OSU Center for Computing and Information Services Network Operations Group
>> 
>> 
>> 
>> _______________________________________________
>> Blinux-list mailing list
>> Blinux-list@redhat.com
>> https://listman.redhat.com/mailman/listinfo/blinux-list
>> 
>
>-- 
>	
>				Janina Sajka, Director
>				Technology Research and Development
>				Governmental Relations Group
>				American Foundation for the Blind (AFB)
>
>Email: janina@afb.net		Phone: (202) 408-8175
>
>Chair, Accessibility SIG
>Open Electronic Book Forum (OEBF)
>http://www.openebook.org
>
>Will electronic books surpass print books? Read our white paper,
>Surpassing Gutenberg, at http://www.afb.org/ebook.asp
>
>Download a free sample Digital Talking Book edition of Martin Luther
>King Jr's inspiring "I Have A Dream" speech at
>http://www.afb.org/mlkweb.asp
>
>Learn how to make accessible software at
>http://www.afb.org/accessapp.asp
>
>
>
>_______________________________________________
>Blinux-list mailing list
>Blinux-list@redhat.com
>https://listman.redhat.com/mailman/listinfo/blinux-list
>
>

Re: Digital Talking Book Standard

[Brent Harding]

Speaking of Visuaid stuff, what's the quality like on that magnum or
whatever recording device it is that uses floppies? Is it good enough to do
any kind of editing on, say for example recording reviews of stuff or
things like that? Does it have a line-in jack?
At 11:49 AM 11/19/01 -0500, you wrote:
>On Mon, 19 Nov 2001, Nicolas Pitre wrote:
>
>> /Nicolas, who designed and implemented the firmware for the Victor digital 
>> book player about 3 years ago while working for VisuAide Inc.
>> 
>You did? The Victor is very, very cool. Are you responsible for the simple 
>navigation mapping, i.e. the 4 and 6 keys for forward and back, and the 2 
>and 8 keys for navigating through the various levels?
>
>
>
>
>_______________________________________________
>Blinux-list mailing list
>Blinux-list@redhat.com
>https://listman.redhat.com/mailman/listinfo/blinux-list
>
>

Re: Digital Talking Book Standard

[Brent Harding]

Wow, can you get a shell prompt on one? Is there a hard drive? How was
speech implemented? Embedded linux seems interesting, but there seems to be
nothing accessible to try it on, speech is the big snag, getting a sega
dreamcast to have speech access seems like a fantasy from Star Trek. Even
to do something simple like get sox to process line in to line out may be
usefull if parameters are adjustable with something. It may be able to make
cheap real time effects instead of paying over a thousand for specialized
hardware that the same is probably done in a proprietary way.
At 12:25 PM 11/19/01 -0500, you wrote:
>On Mon, 19 Nov 2001, Janina Sajka wrote:
>
>> On Mon, 19 Nov 2001, Nicolas Pitre wrote:
>> 
>> > /Nicolas, who designed and implemented the firmware for the Victor
digital 
>> > book player about 3 years ago while working for VisuAide Inc.
>> > 
>> You did? The Victor is very, very cool. Are you responsible for the simple 
>> navigation mapping, i.e. the 4 and 6 keys for forward and back, and the 2 
>> and 8 keys for navigating through the various levels?
>
>Well... We debated a lot on the best user interface at the time and I 
>certainly took an active part of it.  But I'm definitively responsible for 
>most of Victor's software implementation.
>
>And... just to please everyone on this list: Victor is runing Linux inside.
>
>
>Nicolas
>
>
>
>_______________________________________________
>Blinux-list mailing list
>Blinux-list@redhat.com
>https://listman.redhat.com/mailman/listinfo/blinux-list
>
>

Re: Digital Talking Book Standard

[Brent Harding]

Free software is the best, but with this type of thing, there's little
benefit to us to want the problems fixed. It's the publishers that want all
this security, not the people using the content, but in almost every other
situation, everyone hates the holes.
At 11:31 AM 11/19/01 -0600, you wrote:
>On Mon, Nov 19, 2001 at 11:06:39AM -0600, Brent Harding wrote:
>> I don't think the drm will work in the long run. It has to be proprietary
>> to not allow hacking, anyone who has the source code can hack a program to
>> undo what the original did. 
>
>Anything (proprietary or not) can be hacked, given enough time and
>skill. This has to be the worst argument for proprietary software I've
>seen. As I've seen written somewhere...security by obscurity is no
>security at all. What does a proprietary security system have that a
>free one doesn't have? Well, let's see. No checks against sloppy
>programming. Look at the deal with Adobe's Ebook format; that Russian
>fellow found a way to get into it, gave a talk about it, and was
>arrested, jailed, and is now on trial for copyright infringement. Did
>he actually infringe anyone's copyright? Did he actually steal
>anyone's work? No, he pointed out a security flaw and told someone how
>it could be exploited. Rather than being glad of the feedback so the
>problem could be fixed, Adobe sent the feds after him! That isn't
>security. Now if these guys had used a free standard, any security
>holes could be found and addressed. It's a much better deal for
>everyone. And eventually (I say eventually because human beings are
>pretty stupid about things sometimes), people who should already know
>better but don't will see that free software really is good for all of
>us. I firmly believe that that is where our future lies.
>-- 
>Buddy Brannan, KB5ELV    | From the pines down to the projects,
>Email: davros@ycardz.com | Life pushes up through the cracks.
>Phone: (972) 276-6360    | And it's only going forward,
>ICQ: 36621210            | And it's never going back.--Small Potatoes
>
>
>
>_______________________________________________
>Blinux-list mailing list
>Blinux-list@redhat.com
>https://listman.redhat.com/mailman/listinfo/blinux-list
>
>

Re: Digital Talking Book Standard

[Luke Davis]

For streaming you would use something dynamic such as SSH, not PGP.
However I see your point.


On Mon, 19 Nov 2001, Brent Harding wrote:

> Wow, so how would the public/private key encryption work to get the books
> rolling? I suppose, using something like pgp, I could generate you a key if
> I were the publisher and send it to you on a disk, and encrypt all the
> content I want you to have with it. But this involves a manual process for
> every individual. Thus for example, pgp shoutcast can't exist, in the
> current protocols since only one key can decrypt any one data stream. And
> also, some how you have to turn the encrypted content in to audio that can
> be transmitted through such things if you wanted a pay to hear audio stream
> for whatever it be. I was thinking of the idea once, but winamp would choke
> on the encrypted mp3 stream and refuse to transmit it, although in linux to
> decode you could theoretically do something like
> lynx --source http://aaa.bbb.ccc.ddd:port | pgp -d
> and enter your password for your private key.
> At 11:46 AM 11/19/01 -0500, you wrote:
> >Martin, your message is apt and to the point. And, your instinct for a
> >FREE software digital talking book player is also on the mark. Now is a
> >very, very good time for such a player to come into existence. As someone
> >who continues to be very involved in the development of the NISO/DAISY dtb
> >standard, I'd like to pose a challenge to the programmers among us:
> >
> >Please give us a dtb player or two which supports the new NISO/DAISY
> >standards--mostly. I say"mostly" because it is not the end of the world if
> >you can't immediately support MPEG. Please know that the NISO/DAISY
> >standards people are keenly aware of the problems posed by specifying
> >MPEG. Regretably, ogg-vorbis was not judged ready for prime time yet--so
> >if someone wants to work on that, that would also be helpful, because we
> >truly need a GPL compression package that provides quality files that will
> >compete well with MPEG.
> >
> >Let me say why we need a GPL dtb player right now. I am seriously
> >concerned that agencies will impose some kind of encryption technologies
> >which they will not want to describe to GPL programmers. That would be
> >most unfortunate. Far better, imho, for this community to show that a GPL
> >player can really do the job of accessing (both text and audio) dtbs well.
> >Far better to show that public/private key encryption may just be adequate
> >enough.
> >
> >The pendulum has swung away from tight controls, at least among the
> >libraries that serve our communities today. Frankly, the earlier version
> >of the NISO standard was a bit stricter about copyright enforcement--what
> >the publishers like to call "Digital Rights Management." I think even our
> >earlier, stricter model was still smarter than what we've been seeing from
> >commercial ebook publishers. The commercial publishers are putting the
> >onus on the user and are killing industry prospects by doing so. The
> >earlier recommendations are still online at:
> >
> >	http://www.loc.gov/nls/niso/drm.htm
> >
> >In summary, this earlier document expects that some, but certainly not
> >all, titles produced as digital talking books will need to be restricted
> >to qualified recipients in order to maintain long standing programs of
> >free access to books--as with NLS here in the U.S. This would also apply
> >to U.S. agencies such as RFB&D. It would, in fact, be the copyright
> >management scheme which would distinguish titles produced in the NISO
> >standard as qualified titles under the so-called "Chafee Amendement" to
> >U.S. Copyright law. Chafee is a good thing, and we should not lose it.
> >
> >The DMCA is another matter entirely. The NISO thinking was to put the
> >emphasis on catching willful violaters, not on needlessly encumbering
> >honest users. My expectation is that public/private key can do this very
> >well--and can do it in a platform independ matter.
> >
> >Of course there's a chicken and egg aspect to all of this. Who would build
> >a player when there's nothing to play? How would one even test it? Yet, I
> >would think that this community would not want to leave the definitions of
> >what's possible to agencies who are far more steeped in proprietary
> >software than is probably good for the community at large. So, let me
> >simply offer this: I will find some NISO/DAISY content for you to test a
> >player with if you are building a GPL player and need something to work
> >with. Just write me privately.
> >
> >Lastly, let me say just a little more about how much content is actually
> >out there. There is virtually none in the newest version of the standard
> >simply because it's still not 100% nailed down. The NISO folks have until
> >December 17 to vote on the specifications that were submitted to them just
> >a few weeks ago. You should know that we truly do not expect any problems
> >with this voting, and we do expect a lovely Christmas pressent shortly
> >after December 17.
> >
> >There is a fair amount of content available to earlier incarnations of the
> >digital talking book specifications as produced by DAISY. In particular,
> >it may be important for players to support the new NISO/DAISY
> >specifications at:
> >
> >	http://www.loc.gov/nls/niso
> >
> >as well as the older, DAISY 2.0 specifications which can be found at:
> >
> >	http://www.daisy.org
> >
> >In particular, RFB&D has been quietly testing textbooks in several K-12
> >schools for blind children around the U.S. They are hoping to begin
> >offering about 3,000 titles encoded in DAISY 2.0 to all their clients
> >sometime during 2002. Also, the talking book programs at CNIB and RNIB
> >(U.K.) are expecting to launch programs for their clients in the spring of
> >2002 with approximately2,500 titles in each. So, as you can see, content
> >does already exist in the older DAISY 2.0 specification, though it is not
> >yet generally available.
> >
> >Last point on the encryption issues. We expect that whatever copyright
> >based encryption/decryption is involved needs to be nationally based. In
> >other words, the laws that authorize free programs for blind (and
> >otherwise print disabled) people differ country to country. So, any
> >support for a particular solution needs to be modular in order to handle
> >such national differences.
> >
> >I want to end on a more cheerful point. Even mainstream publishers are
> >beginning to realize that encumbering users is a bad way to promote the
> >value of electronic publishing. Please take a look at this website:
> >
> >	http://www.openanebook.org
> >
> >It is intended to be a place for publishers of all kinds to offer their
> >free content and their free tools. So, if you know of any, please offer
> >them up there. And, if you have influence with any blindness agency or
> >ebook publishers, please get them to join DAISY and/or OEBF. We need
> >broader participation in both places in order to realize a vision of
> >epublishing which creates accessible titles that are comfortable and fun
> >to use while still paying authors and editors for the value they add.
> >
> >
> > On
> >Mon, 19 Nov 2001, Martin G. McCormick wrote:
> >
> >> 	I certainly hope that players for DTB's will be available
> >> for Linux when the technology actually begins to bear fruit.
> >>
> >> 	This truly is a wonderful next step in the Talking Book
> >> program. Just think of the logistical problems of moving and
> >> caring for physical materials that this solves.  There will still
> >> need to be traditional Talking Books for many years to come, but
> >> I think this is the future and it may get to a point where there
> >> won't need to be as many physical recordings produced as there
> >> are now.
> >>
> >> 	The one thing I see as holding things up is the one
> >> artificial technical issue and that is DRM or Digital Rights
> >> Management.
> >>
> >> 	How is that going to be accomplished?  The standards
> >> document simply says that digital rights management will be
> >> supported but probably wisely does not prescribe exactly what
> >> sort of mechanism will be used.
> >>
> >> 	Hopefully, being eligible to receive traditional Talking
> >> Books and Braille materials will enable one to also receive any
> >> DTB's they are entitled to receive.
> >>
> >> 	In the main-stream consumer world, digital rights
> >> management has not been doing too well.  Some systems are hacked
> >> almost before they are released.  Other systems tend to do the
> >> opposite and malfunction in ways their developers never thought
> >> of to cause honest users of the technology to be denied service.
> >>
> >> 	Some rights management systems have even gained the
> >> distinction of suffering from both maladies.  The crackers
> >> de fang the protection and the honest users discover that the
> >> software thinks they are thieves because of something their
> >> equipment or they accidentally did.
> >>
> >> 	This issue, not technology, has held up everything from
> >> digital audio tape a decade or so ago to present-day high-definition
> >> television systems.
> >>
> >> 	Linux and FreeBSD should actually be good test beds for
> >> this technology because it is based on open-source models and any
> >> hanky panky mechanisms such as back doors or scripting
> >> applications are a little easier to police than they are in
> >> proprietary operating systems.
> >>
> >> Martin McCormick WB5AGZ  Stillwater, OK
> >> OSU Center for Computing and Information Services Network Operations Group
> >>
> >>
> >>
> >> _______________________________________________
> >> Blinux-list mailing list
> >> Blinux-list@redhat.com
> >> https://listman.redhat.com/mailman/listinfo/blinux-list
> >>
> >
> >--
> >
> >				Janina Sajka, Director
> >				Technology Research and Development
> >				Governmental Relations Group
> >				American Foundation for the Blind (AFB)
> >
> >Email: janina@afb.net		Phone: (202) 408-8175
> >
> >Chair, Accessibility SIG
> >Open Electronic Book Forum (OEBF)
> >http://www.openebook.org
> >
> >Will electronic books surpass print books? Read our white paper,
> >Surpassing Gutenberg, at http://www.afb.org/ebook.asp
> >
> >Download a free sample Digital Talking Book edition of Martin Luther
> >King Jr's inspiring "I Have A Dream" speech at
> >http://www.afb.org/mlkweb.asp
> >
> >Learn how to make accessible software at
> >http://www.afb.org/accessapp.asp
> >
> >
> >
> >_______________________________________________
> >Blinux-list mailing list
> >Blinux-list@redhat.com
> >https://listman.redhat.com/mailman/listinfo/blinux-list
> >
> >
>
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> Blinux-list mailing list
> Blinux-list@redhat.com
> https://listman.redhat.com/mailman/listinfo/blinux-list
>

Re: Digital Talking Book Standard

[Brent Harding]

Wonder why that port is there. I heard a tivo can be made to support
logins. If it has audio in, maybe it could be adapted to do sound
processing with, but adjusting parameters would be one thing, getting it's
buttons to tell sox to increase different values depending what you press,
probably not possible.
At 02:10 PM 11/19/01 -0500, you wrote:
>On Mon, 19 Nov 2001, Nicolas Pitre wrote:
>
>> 
>> And... just to please everyone on this list: Victor is runing Linux inside.
>> 
>And, it has a most tantalizing db9 port on the back. Sure looks like a 
>serial port to me. Don't suppose it supports login over that port, now, 
>does it?? <grin>
>
> > 
>> Nicolas
>> 
>> 
>> 
>> _______________________________________________
>> Blinux-list mailing list
>> Blinux-list@redhat.com
>> https://listman.redhat.com/mailman/listinfo/blinux-list
>> 
>
>-- 
>	
>				Janina Sajka, Director
>				Technology Research and Development
>				Governmental Relations Group
>				American Foundation for the Blind (AFB)
>
>Email: janina@afb.net		Phone: (202) 408-8175
>
>Chair, Accessibility SIG
>Open Electronic Book Forum (OEBF)
>http://www.openebook.org
>
>Will electronic books surpass print books? Read our white paper,
>Surpassing Gutenberg, at http://www.afb.org/ebook.asp
>
>Download a free sample Digital Talking Book edition of Martin Luther
>King Jr's inspiring "I Have A Dream" speech at
>http://www.afb.org/mlkweb.asp
>
>Learn how to make accessible software at
>http://www.afb.org/accessapp.asp
>
>
>
>_______________________________________________
>Blinux-list mailing list
>Blinux-list@redhat.com
>https://listman.redhat.com/mailman/listinfo/blinux-list
>
>

Re: Digital Talking Book Standard

[cbowman]

hi luke, and listers.  luke, I have heard of ssh but, wasn't sure just
what that is. is that something like telnet, or like a mod just wondering. 
thanks 
charles 


On Tue, 20 Nov 2001, Luke Davis wrote:

> For streaming you would use something dynamic such as SSH, not PGP.
> However I see your point.
> 
> 
> On Mon, 19 Nov 2001, Brent Harding wrote:
> 
> > Wow, so how would the public/private key encryption work to get the books
> > rolling? I suppose, using something like pgp, I could generate you a key if
> > I were the publisher and send it to you on a disk, and encrypt all the
> > content I want you to have with it. But this involves a manual process for
> > every individual. Thus for example, pgp shoutcast can't exist, in the
> > current protocols since only one key can decrypt any one data stream. And
> > also, some how you have to turn the encrypted content in to audio that can
> > be transmitted through such things if you wanted a pay to hear audio stream
> > for whatever it be. I was thinking of the idea once, but winamp would choke
> > on the encrypted mp3 stream and refuse to transmit it, although in linux to
> > decode you could theoretically do something like
> > lynx --source http://aaa.bbb.ccc.ddd:port | pgp -d
> > and enter your password for your private key.
> > At 11:46 AM 11/19/01 -0500, you wrote:
> > >Martin, your message is apt and to the point. And, your instinct for a
> > >FREE software digital talking book player is also on the mark. Now is a
> > >very, very good time for such a player to come into existence. As someone
> > >who continues to be very involved in the development of the NISO/DAISY dtb
> > >standard, I'd like to pose a challenge to the programmers among us:
> > >
> > >Please give us a dtb player or two which supports the new NISO/DAISY
> > >standards--mostly. I say"mostly" because it is not the end of the world if
> > >you can't immediately support MPEG. Please know that the NISO/DAISY
> > >standards people are keenly aware of the problems posed by specifying
> > >MPEG. Regretably, ogg-vorbis was not judged ready for prime time yet--so
> > >if someone wants to work on that, that would also be helpful, because we
> > >truly need a GPL compression package that provides quality files that will
> > >compete well with MPEG.
> > >
> > >Let me say why we need a GPL dtb player right now. I am seriously
> > >concerned that agencies will impose some kind of encryption technologies
> > >which they will not want to describe to GPL programmers. That would be
> > >most unfortunate. Far better, imho, for this community to show that a GPL
> > >player can really do the job of accessing (both text and audio) dtbs well.
> > >Far better to show that public/private key encryption may just be adequate
> > >enough.
> > >
> > >The pendulum has swung away from tight controls, at least among the
> > >libraries that serve our communities today. Frankly, the earlier version
> > >of the NISO standard was a bit stricter about copyright enforcement--what
> > >the publishers like to call "Digital Rights Management." I think even our
> > >earlier, stricter model was still smarter than what we've been seeing from
> > >commercial ebook publishers. The commercial publishers are putting the
> > >onus on the user and are killing industry prospects by doing so. The
> > >earlier recommendations are still online at:
> > >
> > >	http://www.loc.gov/nls/niso/drm.htm
> > >
> > >In summary, this earlier document expects that some, but certainly not
> > >all, titles produced as digital talking books will need to be restricted
> > >to qualified recipients in order to maintain long standing programs of
> > >free access to books--as with NLS here in the U.S. This would also apply
> > >to U.S. agencies such as RFB&D. It would, in fact, be the copyright
> > >management scheme which would distinguish titles produced in the NISO
> > >standard as qualified titles under the so-called "Chafee Amendement" to
> > >U.S. Copyright law. Chafee is a good thing, and we should not lose it.
> > >
> > >The DMCA is another matter entirely. The NISO thinking was to put the
> > >emphasis on catching willful violaters, not on needlessly encumbering
> > >honest users. My expectation is that public/private key can do this very
> > >well--and can do it in a platform independ matter.
> > >
> > >Of course there's a chicken and egg aspect to all of this. Who would build
> > >a player when there's nothing to play? How would one even test it? Yet, I
> > >would think that this community would not want to leave the definitions of
> > >what's possible to agencies who are far more steeped in proprietary
> > >software than is probably good for the community at large. So, let me
> > >simply offer this: I will find some NISO/DAISY content for you to test a
> > >player with if you are building a GPL player and need something to work
> > >with. Just write me privately.
> > >
> > >Lastly, let me say just a little more about how much content is actually
> > >out there. There is virtually none in the newest version of the standard
> > >simply because it's still not 100% nailed down. The NISO folks have until
> > >December 17 to vote on the specifications that were submitted to them just
> > >a few weeks ago. You should know that we truly do not expect any problems
> > >with this voting, and we do expect a lovely Christmas pressent shortly
> > >after December 17.
> > >
> > >There is a fair amount of content available to earlier incarnations of the
> > >digital talking book specifications as produced by DAISY. In particular,
> > >it may be important for players to support the new NISO/DAISY
> > >specifications at:
> > >
> > >	http://www.loc.gov/nls/niso
> > >
> > >as well as the older, DAISY 2.0 specifications which can be found at:
> > >
> > >	http://www.daisy.org
> > >
> > >In particular, RFB&D has been quietly testing textbooks in several K-12
> > >schools for blind children around the U.S. They are hoping to begin
> > >offering about 3,000 titles encoded in DAISY 2.0 to all their clients
> > >sometime during 2002. Also, the talking book programs at CNIB and RNIB
> > >(U.K.) are expecting to launch programs for their clients in the spring of
> > >2002 with approximately2,500 titles in each. So, as you can see, content
> > >does already exist in the older DAISY 2.0 specification, though it is not
> > >yet generally available.
> > >
> > >Last point on the encryption issues. We expect that whatever copyright
> > >based encryption/decryption is involved needs to be nationally based. In
> > >other words, the laws that authorize free programs for blind (and
> > >otherwise print disabled) people differ country to country. So, any
> > >support for a particular solution needs to be modular in order to handle
> > >such national differences.
> > >
> > >I want to end on a more cheerful point. Even mainstream publishers are
> > >beginning to realize that encumbering users is a bad way to promote the
> > >value of electronic publishing. Please take a look at this website:
> > >
> > >	http://www.openanebook.org
> > >
> > >It is intended to be a place for publishers of all kinds to offer their
> > >free content and their free tools. So, if you know of any, please offer
> > >them up there. And, if you have influence with any blindness agency or
> > >ebook publishers, please get them to join DAISY and/or OEBF. We need
> > >broader participation in both places in order to realize a vision of
> > >epublishing which creates accessible titles that are comfortable and fun
> > >to use while still paying authors and editors for the value they add.
> > >
> > >
> > > On
> > >Mon, 19 Nov 2001, Martin G. McCormick wrote:
> > >
> > >> 	I certainly hope that players for DTB's will be available
> > >> for Linux when the technology actually begins to bear fruit.
> > >>
> > >> 	This truly is a wonderful next step in the Talking Book
> > >> program. Just think of the logistical problems of moving and
> > >> caring for physical materials that this solves.  There will still
> > >> need to be traditional Talking Books for many years to come, but
> > >> I think this is the future and it may get to a point where there
> > >> won't need to be as many physical recordings produced as there
> > >> are now.
> > >>
> > >> 	The one thing I see as holding things up is the one
> > >> artificial technical issue and that is DRM or Digital Rights
> > >> Management.
> > >>
> > >> 	How is that going to be accomplished?  The standards
> > >> document simply says that digital rights management will be
> > >> supported but probably wisely does not prescribe exactly what
> > >> sort of mechanism will be used.
> > >>
> > >> 	Hopefully, being eligible to receive traditional Talking
> > >> Books and Braille materials will enable one to also receive any
> > >> DTB's they are entitled to receive.
> > >>
> > >> 	In the main-stream consumer world, digital rights
> > >> management has not been doing too well.  Some systems are hacked
> > >> almost before they are released.  Other systems tend to do the
> > >> opposite and malfunction in ways their developers never thought
> > >> of to cause honest users of the technology to be denied service.
> > >>
> > >> 	Some rights management systems have even gained the
> > >> distinction of suffering from both maladies.  The crackers
> > >> de fang the protection and the honest users discover that the
> > >> software thinks they are thieves because of something their
> > >> equipment or they accidentally did.
> > >>
> > >> 	This issue, not technology, has held up everything from
> > >> digital audio tape a decade or so ago to present-day high-definition
> > >> television systems.
> > >>
> > >> 	Linux and FreeBSD should actually be good test beds for
> > >> this technology because it is based on open-source models and any
> > >> hanky panky mechanisms such as back doors or scripting
> > >> applications are a little easier to police than they are in
> > >> proprietary operating systems.
> > >>
> > >> Martin McCormick WB5AGZ  Stillwater, OK
> > >> OSU Center for Computing and Information Services Network Operations Group
> > >>
> > >>
> > >>
> > >> _______________________________________________
> > >> Blinux-list mailing list
> > >> Blinux-list@redhat.com
> > >> https://listman.redhat.com/mailman/listinfo/blinux-list
> > >>
> > >
> > >--
> > >
> > >				Janina Sajka, Director
> > >				Technology Research and Development
> > >				Governmental Relations Group
> > >				American Foundation for the Blind (AFB)
> > >
> > >Email: janina@afb.net		Phone: (202) 408-8175
> > >
> > >Chair, Accessibility SIG
> > >Open Electronic Book Forum (OEBF)
> > >http://www.openebook.org
> > >
> > >Will electronic books surpass print books? Read our white paper,
> > >Surpassing Gutenberg, at http://www.afb.org/ebook.asp
> > >
> > >Download a free sample Digital Talking Book edition of Martin Luther
> > >King Jr's inspiring "I Have A Dream" speech at
> > >http://www.afb.org/mlkweb.asp
> > >
> > >Learn how to make accessible software at
> > >http://www.afb.org/accessapp.asp
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >_______________________________________________
> > >Blinux-list mailing list
> > >Blinux-list@redhat.com
> > >https://listman.redhat.com/mailman/listinfo/blinux-list
> > >
> > >
> >
> >
> >
> > _______________________________________________
> > Blinux-list mailing list
> > Blinux-list@redhat.com
> > https://listman.redhat.com/mailman/listinfo/blinux-list
> >
> 
> 
> 
> _______________________________________________
> Blinux-list mailing list
> Blinux-list@redhat.com
> https://listman.redhat.com/mailman/listinfo/blinux-list
> 

ssh

[A. R. Vener]

ssh stands for secure shell. It uses the secure socket
layer (SSL) to establish a connection machines similar to
telnet or rsh. It also includes the secure copy (scp) protocol
as part of the suite.

I've installed it on my machine and reccommend its use as 
a replacement to telnet and password requiremed ftp since the 
password transaction is also encrypted. This is not true for telnet, rsh or
ftp. If one of the machines is running an illicit sniffer your password can
be acquired by the sniffer operator when establishing a telnet or ftp
connection. 

You'll need to install first the OpenSSL library and then the
OpenSSH applications. 

Try cvhecking out http://www.openssh.com  

Have fun.

rudy

Re: ssh

[cbowman]

hi, ok thanks i think I understand it better now.  thanks alot. 
charles 


On Tue, 20 Nov 2001, A. R. Vener wrote:

> ssh stands for secure shell. It uses the secure socket
> layer (SSL) to establish a connection machines similar to
> telnet or rsh. It also includes the secure copy (scp) protocol
> as part of the suite.
> 
> I've installed it on my machine and reccommend its use as 
> a replacement to telnet and password requiremed ftp since the 
> password transaction is also encrypted. This is not true for telnet, rsh or
> ftp. If one of the machines is running an illicit sniffer your password can
> be acquired by the sniffer operator when establishing a telnet or ftp
> connection. 
> 
> You'll need to install first the OpenSSL library and then the
> OpenSSH applications. 
> 
> Try cvhecking out http://www.openssh.com  
> 
> Have fun.
> 
> rudy
> 
> 
> 
> _______________________________________________
> Blinux-list mailing list
> Blinux-list@redhat.com
> https://listman.redhat.com/mailman/listinfo/blinux-list
> 

Re: Digital Talking Book Standard

[Nicolas Pitre]

On Mon, 19 Nov 2001, Brent Harding wrote:

> Speaking of Visuaid stuff, what's the quality like on that magnum or
> whatever recording device it is that uses floppies? Is it good enough to do
> any kind of editing on, say for example recording reviews of stuff or
> things like that?

It was designed with that in mind.

> Does it have a line-in jack?

Yes.

However Magnum is quite old now (I worked on firmware for it back in 1994) 
so I really don't know if it's still manufactured.  Please contact VisuAide 
for infos as I don't work there anymore.


Nicolas

Re: Digital Talking Book Standard

[Nicolas Pitre]

On Mon, 19 Nov 2001, Brent Harding wrote:

> Wow, can you get a shell prompt on one?

It's possible given a specially crafted CD.

> Is there a hard drive? 

No.  The unit's internal filesystem is stored on flash.

> How was speech implemented? 

Prerecorded samples.

> On Mon, 19 Nov 2001, Nicolas Pitre wrote:
> >And... just to please everyone on this list: Victor is runing Linux inside.
> >
> >
> >Nicolas

RE: Digital Talking Book Standard

[Joel Zimba]

there are plenty of hand-held minidisc recorders out there with great audio
on them...  it's one of the more commonly used devices in the reporting
world these days.  DAT of course was the thing...

I've used a couple of small very high quality minidisc voice/audio recording
devices.   I could do most of the things with them, except the editting
functions...  but that was fixed by downloading them (uploading?) to the
computer and using the old cooledit or goldwave or whatever they had.

speaking of which, is anyone using any of the Acid products out there?
(yeah yeah, non-linux sorry!)

Joel

-----Original Message-----
From: blinux-list-admin@redhat.com
[mailto:blinux-list-admin@redhat.com]On Behalf Of Nicolas Pitre
Sent: Tuesday, November 20, 2001 10:20 AM
To: blinux-list@redhat.com
Subject: Re: Digital Talking Book Standard


On Mon, 19 Nov 2001, Brent Harding wrote:

> Speaking of Visuaid stuff, what's the quality like on that magnum or
> whatever recording device it is that uses floppies? Is it good enough to
do
> any kind of editing on, say for example recording reviews of stuff or
> things like that?

It was designed with that in mind.

> Does it have a line-in jack?

Yes.

However Magnum is quite old now (I worked on firmware for it back in 1994)
so I really don't know if it's still manufactured.  Please contact VisuAide
for infos as I don't work there anymore.


Nicolas



_______________________________________________
Blinux-list mailing list
Blinux-list@redhat.com
https://listman.redhat.com/mailman/listinfo/blinux-list

Re: Digital Talking Book Standard

[Brent Harding]

It's secure shell. Basically, encrypted telnet connections, and more.
At 08:37 AM 11/20/01 -0600, you wrote:
>hi luke, and listers.  luke, I have heard of ssh but, wasn't sure just
>what that is. is that something like telnet, or like a mod just wondering. 
>thanks 
>charles 
>
>
>On Tue, 20 Nov 2001, Luke Davis wrote:
>
>> For streaming you would use something dynamic such as SSH, not PGP.
>> However I see your point.
>> 
>> 
>> On Mon, 19 Nov 2001, Brent Harding wrote:
>> 
>> > Wow, so how would the public/private key encryption work to get the books
>> > rolling? I suppose, using something like pgp, I could generate you a
key if
>> > I were the publisher and send it to you on a disk, and encrypt all the
>> > content I want you to have with it. But this involves a manual process
for
>> > every individual. Thus for example, pgp shoutcast can't exist, in the
>> > current protocols since only one key can decrypt any one data stream. And
>> > also, some how you have to turn the encrypted content in to audio that
can
>> > be transmitted through such things if you wanted a pay to hear audio
stream
>> > for whatever it be. I was thinking of the idea once, but winamp would
choke
>> > on the encrypted mp3 stream and refuse to transmit it, although in
linux to
>> > decode you could theoretically do something like
>> > lynx --source http://aaa.bbb.ccc.ddd:port | pgp -d
>> > and enter your password for your private key.
>> > At 11:46 AM 11/19/01 -0500, you wrote:
>> > >Martin, your message is apt and to the point. And, your instinct for a
>> > >FREE software digital talking book player is also on the mark. Now is a
>> > >very, very good time for such a player to come into existence. As
someone
>> > >who continues to be very involved in the development of the
NISO/DAISY dtb
>> > >standard, I'd like to pose a challenge to the programmers among us:
>> > >
>> > >Please give us a dtb player or two which supports the new NISO/DAISY
>> > >standards--mostly. I say"mostly" because it is not the end of the
world if
>> > >you can't immediately support MPEG. Please know that the NISO/DAISY
>> > >standards people are keenly aware of the problems posed by specifying
>> > >MPEG. Regretably, ogg-vorbis was not judged ready for prime time yet--so
>> > >if someone wants to work on that, that would also be helpful, because we
>> > >truly need a GPL compression package that provides quality files that
will
>> > >compete well with MPEG.
>> > >
>> > >Let me say why we need a GPL dtb player right now. I am seriously
>> > >concerned that agencies will impose some kind of encryption technologies
>> > >which they will not want to describe to GPL programmers. That would be
>> > >most unfortunate. Far better, imho, for this community to show that a
GPL
>> > >player can really do the job of accessing (both text and audio) dtbs
well.
>> > >Far better to show that public/private key encryption may just be
adequate
>> > >enough.
>> > >
>> > >The pendulum has swung away from tight controls, at least among the
>> > >libraries that serve our communities today. Frankly, the earlier version
>> > >of the NISO standard was a bit stricter about copyright
enforcement--what
>> > >the publishers like to call "Digital Rights Management." I think even
our
>> > >earlier, stricter model was still smarter than what we've been seeing
from
>> > >commercial ebook publishers. The commercial publishers are putting the
>> > >onus on the user and are killing industry prospects by doing so. The
>> > >earlier recommendations are still online at:
>> > >
>> > >	http://www.loc.gov/nls/niso/drm.htm
>> > >
>> > >In summary, this earlier document expects that some, but certainly not
>> > >all, titles produced as digital talking books will need to be restricted
>> > >to qualified recipients in order to maintain long standing programs of
>> > >free access to books--as with NLS here in the U.S. This would also apply
>> > >to U.S. agencies such as RFB&D. It would, in fact, be the copyright
>> > >management scheme which would distinguish titles produced in the NISO
>> > >standard as qualified titles under the so-called "Chafee Amendement" to
>> > >U.S. Copyright law. Chafee is a good thing, and we should not lose it.
>> > >
>> > >The DMCA is another matter entirely. The NISO thinking was to put the
>> > >emphasis on catching willful violaters, not on needlessly encumbering
>> > >honest users. My expectation is that public/private key can do this very
>> > >well--and can do it in a platform independ matter.
>> > >
>> > >Of course there's a chicken and egg aspect to all of this. Who would
build
>> > >a player when there's nothing to play? How would one even test it?
Yet, I
>> > >would think that this community would not want to leave the
definitions of
>> > >what's possible to agencies who are far more steeped in proprietary
>> > >software than is probably good for the community at large. So, let me
>> > >simply offer this: I will find some NISO/DAISY content for you to test a
>> > >player with if you are building a GPL player and need something to work
>> > >with. Just write me privately.
>> > >
>> > >Lastly, let me say just a little more about how much content is actually
>> > >out there. There is virtually none in the newest version of the standard
>> > >simply because it's still not 100% nailed down. The NISO folks have
until
>> > >December 17 to vote on the specifications that were submitted to them
just
>> > >a few weeks ago. You should know that we truly do not expect any
problems
>> > >with this voting, and we do expect a lovely Christmas pressent shortly
>> > >after December 17.
>> > >
>> > >There is a fair amount of content available to earlier incarnations
of the
>> > >digital talking book specifications as produced by DAISY. In particular,
>> > >it may be important for players to support the new NISO/DAISY
>> > >specifications at:
>> > >
>> > >	http://www.loc.gov/nls/niso
>> > >
>> > >as well as the older, DAISY 2.0 specifications which can be found at:
>> > >
>> > >	http://www.daisy.org
>> > >
>> > >In particular, RFB&D has been quietly testing textbooks in several K-12
>> > >schools for blind children around the U.S. They are hoping to begin
>> > >offering about 3,000 titles encoded in DAISY 2.0 to all their clients
>> > >sometime during 2002. Also, the talking book programs at CNIB and RNIB
>> > >(U.K.) are expecting to launch programs for their clients in the
spring of
>> > >2002 with approximately2,500 titles in each. So, as you can see, content
>> > >does already exist in the older DAISY 2.0 specification, though it is
not
>> > >yet generally available.
>> > >
>> > >Last point on the encryption issues. We expect that whatever copyright
>> > >based encryption/decryption is involved needs to be nationally based. In
>> > >other words, the laws that authorize free programs for blind (and
>> > >otherwise print disabled) people differ country to country. So, any
>> > >support for a particular solution needs to be modular in order to handle
>> > >such national differences.
>> > >
>> > >I want to end on a more cheerful point. Even mainstream publishers are
>> > >beginning to realize that encumbering users is a bad way to promote the
>> > >value of electronic publishing. Please take a look at this website:
>> > >
>> > >	http://www.openanebook.org
>> > >
>> > >It is intended to be a place for publishers of all kinds to offer their
>> > >free content and their free tools. So, if you know of any, please offer
>> > >them up there. And, if you have influence with any blindness agency or
>> > >ebook publishers, please get them to join DAISY and/or OEBF. We need
>> > >broader participation in both places in order to realize a vision of
>> > >epublishing which creates accessible titles that are comfortable and fun
>> > >to use while still paying authors and editors for the value they add.
>> > >
>> > >
>> > > On
>> > >Mon, 19 Nov 2001, Martin G. McCormick wrote:
>> > >
>> > >> 	I certainly hope that players for DTB's will be available
>> > >> for Linux when the technology actually begins to bear fruit.
>> > >>
>> > >> 	This truly is a wonderful next step in the Talking Book
>> > >> program. Just think of the logistical problems of moving and
>> > >> caring for physical materials that this solves.  There will still
>> > >> need to be traditional Talking Books for many years to come, but
>> > >> I think this is the future and it may get to a point where there
>> > >> won't need to be as many physical recordings produced as there
>> > >> are now.
>> > >>
>> > >> 	The one thing I see as holding things up is the one
>> > >> artificial technical issue and that is DRM or Digital Rights
>> > >> Management.
>> > >>
>> > >> 	How is that going to be accomplished?  The standards
>> > >> document simply says that digital rights management will be
>> > >> supported but probably wisely does not prescribe exactly what
>> > >> sort of mechanism will be used.
>> > >>
>> > >> 	Hopefully, being eligible to receive traditional Talking
>> > >> Books and Braille materials will enable one to also receive any
>> > >> DTB's they are entitled to receive.
>> > >>
>> > >> 	In the main-stream consumer world, digital rights
>> > >> management has not been doing too well.  Some systems are hacked
>> > >> almost before they are released.  Other systems tend to do the
>> > >> opposite and malfunction in ways their developers never thought
>> > >> of to cause honest users of the technology to be denied service.
>> > >>
>> > >> 	Some rights management systems have even gained the
>> > >> distinction of suffering from both maladies.  The crackers
>> > >> de fang the protection and the honest users discover that the
>> > >> software thinks they are thieves because of something their
>> > >> equipment or they accidentally did.
>> > >>
>> > >> 	This issue, not technology, has held up everything from
>> > >> digital audio tape a decade or so ago to present-day high-definition
>> > >> television systems.
>> > >>
>> > >> 	Linux and FreeBSD should actually be good test beds for
>> > >> this technology because it is based on open-source models and any
>> > >> hanky panky mechanisms such as back doors or scripting
>> > >> applications are a little easier to police than they are in
>> > >> proprietary operating systems.
>> > >>
>> > >> Martin McCormick WB5AGZ  Stillwater, OK
>> > >> OSU Center for Computing and Information Services Network
Operations Group
>> > >>
>> > >>
>> > >>
>> > >> _______________________________________________
>> > >> Blinux-list mailing list
>> > >> Blinux-list@redhat.com
>> > >> https://listman.redhat.com/mailman/listinfo/blinux-list
>> > >>
>> > >
>> > >--
>> > >
>> > >				Janina Sajka, Director
>> > >				Technology Research and Development
>> > >				Governmental Relations Group
>> > >				American Foundation for the Blind (AFB)
>> > >
>> > >Email: janina@afb.net		Phone: (202) 408-8175
>> > >
>> > >Chair, Accessibility SIG
>> > >Open Electronic Book Forum (OEBF)
>> > >http://www.openebook.org
>> > >
>> > >Will electronic books surpass print books? Read our white paper,
>> > >Surpassing Gutenberg, at http://www.afb.org/ebook.asp
>> > >
>> > >Download a free sample Digital Talking Book edition of Martin Luther
>> > >King Jr's inspiring "I Have A Dream" speech at
>> > >http://www.afb.org/mlkweb.asp
>> > >
>> > >Learn how to make accessible software at
>> > >http://www.afb.org/accessapp.asp
>> > >
>> > >
>> > >
>> > >_______________________________________________
>> > >Blinux-list mailing list
>> > >Blinux-list@redhat.com
>> > >https://listman.redhat.com/mailman/listinfo/blinux-list
>> > >
>> > >
>> >
>> >
>> >
>> > _______________________________________________
>> > Blinux-list mailing list
>> > Blinux-list@redhat.com
>> > https://listman.redhat.com/mailman/listinfo/blinux-list
>> >
>> 
>> 
>> 
>> _______________________________________________
>> Blinux-list mailing list
>> Blinux-list@redhat.com
>> https://listman.redhat.com/mailman/listinfo/blinux-list
>> 
>
>
>
>_______________________________________________
>Blinux-list mailing list
>Blinux-list@redhat.com
>https://listman.redhat.com/mailman/listinfo/blinux-list
>
>

Re: Digital Talking Book Standard

[Brent Harding]

Is it as good as CD quality? Does it give good quality with music and the
like?
At 10:20 AM 11/20/01 -0500, you wrote:
>On Mon, 19 Nov 2001, Brent Harding wrote:
>
>> Speaking of Visuaid stuff, what's the quality like on that magnum or
>> whatever recording device it is that uses floppies? Is it good enough to do
>> any kind of editing on, say for example recording reviews of stuff or
>> things like that?
>
>It was designed with that in mind.
>
>> Does it have a line-in jack?
>
>Yes.
>
>However Magnum is quite old now (I worked on firmware for it back in 1994) 
>so I really don't know if it's still manufactured.  Please contact VisuAide 
>for infos as I don't work there anymore.
>
>
>Nicolas
>
>
>
>_______________________________________________
>Blinux-list mailing list
>Blinux-list@redhat.com
>https://listman.redhat.com/mailman/listinfo/blinux-list
>
>

RE: Digital Talking Book Standard

[Brent Harding]

Wow, it's the editing features I really want, computer's too slow, don't
have scsi disks to speed things up.
At 11:12 AM 11/20/01 -0500, you wrote:
>there are plenty of hand-held minidisc recorders out there with great audio
>on them...  it's one of the more commonly used devices in the reporting
>world these days.  DAT of course was the thing...
>
>I've used a couple of small very high quality minidisc voice/audio recording
>devices.   I could do most of the things with them, except the editting
>functions...  but that was fixed by downloading them (uploading?) to the
>computer and using the old cooledit or goldwave or whatever they had.
>
>speaking of which, is anyone using any of the Acid products out there?
>(yeah yeah, non-linux sorry!)
>
>Joel
>
>-----Original Message-----
>From: blinux-list-admin@redhat.com
>[mailto:blinux-list-admin@redhat.com]On Behalf Of Nicolas Pitre
>Sent: Tuesday, November 20, 2001 10:20 AM
>To: blinux-list@redhat.com
>Subject: Re: Digital Talking Book Standard
>
>
>On Mon, 19 Nov 2001, Brent Harding wrote:
>
>> Speaking of Visuaid stuff, what's the quality like on that magnum or
>> whatever recording device it is that uses floppies? Is it good enough to
>do
>> any kind of editing on, say for example recording reviews of stuff or
>> things like that?
>
>It was designed with that in mind.
>
>> Does it have a line-in jack?
>
>Yes.
>
>However Magnum is quite old now (I worked on firmware for it back in 1994)
>so I really don't know if it's still manufactured.  Please contact VisuAide
>for infos as I don't work there anymore.
>
>
>Nicolas
>
>
>
>_______________________________________________
>Blinux-list mailing list
>Blinux-list@redhat.com
>https://listman.redhat.com/mailman/listinfo/blinux-list
>
>
>
>_______________________________________________
>Blinux-list mailing list
>Blinux-list@redhat.com
>https://listman.redhat.com/mailman/listinfo/blinux-list
>
>

Re: Digital Talking Book Standard

[Nicolas Pitre]

On Tue, 20 Nov 2001, Brent Harding wrote:

> Is it as good as CD quality? Does it give good quality with music and the
> like?

No.  The audio compression algorithm is only suited for human speech.


> At 10:20 AM 11/20/01 -0500, you wrote:
> >On Mon, 19 Nov 2001, Brent Harding wrote:
> >
> >> Speaking of Visuaid stuff, what's the quality like on that magnum or
> >> whatever recording device it is that uses floppies? Is it good enough to do
> >> any kind of editing on, say for example recording reviews of stuff or
> >> things like that?
> >
> >It was designed with that in mind.
> >
> >> Does it have a line-in jack?
> >
> >Yes.
> >
> >However Magnum is quite old now (I worked on firmware for it back in 1994) 
> >so I really don't know if it's still manufactured.  Please contact VisuAide 
> >for infos as I don't work there anymore.
> >
> >
> >Nicolas
> >
> >
> >
> >_______________________________________________
> >Blinux-list mailing list
> >Blinux-list@redhat.com
> >https://listman.redhat.com/mailman/listinfo/blinux-list
> >
> >
> 
> 
> 
> _______________________________________________
> Blinux-list mailing list
> Blinux-list@redhat.com
> https://listman.redhat.com/mailman/listinfo/blinux-list
> 

Re: Digital Talking Book Standard

[cbowman]

hi, ok thanks for the info on that.  
charles 


On Tue, 20 Nov 2001, Brent Harding wrote:

> It's secure shell. Basically, encrypted telnet connections, and more.
> At 08:37 AM 11/20/01 -0600, you wrote:
> >hi luke, and listers.  luke, I have heard of ssh but, wasn't sure just
> >what that is. is that something like telnet, or like a mod just wondering. 
> >thanks 
> >charles 
> >
> >
> >On Tue, 20 Nov 2001, Luke Davis wrote:
> >
> >> For streaming you would use something dynamic such as SSH, not PGP.
> >> However I see your point.
> >> 
> >> 
> >> On Mon, 19 Nov 2001, Brent Harding wrote:
> >> 
> >> > Wow, so how would the public/private key encryption work to get the books
> >> > rolling? I suppose, using something like pgp, I could generate you a
> key if
> >> > I were the publisher and send it to you on a disk, and encrypt all the
> >> > content I want you to have with it. But this involves a manual process
> for
> >> > every individual. Thus for example, pgp shoutcast can't exist, in the
> >> > current protocols since only one key can decrypt any one data stream. And
> >> > also, some how you have to turn the encrypted content in to audio that
> can
> >> > be transmitted through such things if you wanted a pay to hear audio
> stream
> >> > for whatever it be. I was thinking of the idea once, but winamp would
> choke
> >> > on the encrypted mp3 stream and refuse to transmit it, although in
> linux to
> >> > decode you could theoretically do something like
> >> > lynx --source http://aaa.bbb.ccc.ddd:port | pgp -d
> >> > and enter your password for your private key.
> >> > At 11:46 AM 11/19/01 -0500, you wrote:
> >> > >Martin, your message is apt and to the point. And, your instinct for a
> >> > >FREE software digital talking book player is also on the mark. Now is a
> >> > >very, very good time for such a player to come into existence. As
> someone
> >> > >who continues to be very involved in the development of the
> NISO/DAISY dtb
> >> > >standard, I'd like to pose a challenge to the programmers among us:
> >> > >
> >> > >Please give us a dtb player or two which supports the new NISO/DAISY
> >> > >standards--mostly. I say"mostly" because it is not the end of the
> world if
> >> > >you can't immediately support MPEG. Please know that the NISO/DAISY
> >> > >standards people are keenly aware of the problems posed by specifying
> >> > >MPEG. Regretably, ogg-vorbis was not judged ready for prime time yet--so
> >> > >if someone wants to work on that, that would also be helpful, because we
> >> > >truly need a GPL compression package that provides quality files that
> will
> >> > >compete well with MPEG.
> >> > >
> >> > >Let me say why we need a GPL dtb player right now. I am seriously
> >> > >concerned that agencies will impose some kind of encryption technologies
> >> > >which they will not want to describe to GPL programmers. That would be
> >> > >most unfortunate. Far better, imho, for this community to show that a
> GPL
> >> > >player can really do the job of accessing (both text and audio) dtbs
> well.
> >> > >Far better to show that public/private key encryption may just be
> adequate
> >> > >enough.
> >> > >
> >> > >The pendulum has swung away from tight controls, at least among the
> >> > >libraries that serve our communities today. Frankly, the earlier version
> >> > >of the NISO standard was a bit stricter about copyright
> enforcement--what
> >> > >the publishers like to call "Digital Rights Management." I think even
> our
> >> > >earlier, stricter model was still smarter than what we've been seeing
> from
> >> > >commercial ebook publishers. The commercial publishers are putting the
> >> > >onus on the user and are killing industry prospects by doing so. The
> >> > >earlier recommendations are still online at:
> >> > >
> >> > >	http://www.loc.gov/nls/niso/drm.htm
> >> > >
> >> > >In summary, this earlier document expects that some, but certainly not
> >> > >all, titles produced as digital talking books will need to be restricted
> >> > >to qualified recipients in order to maintain long standing programs of
> >> > >free access to books--as with NLS here in the U.S. This would also apply
> >> > >to U.S. agencies such as RFB&D. It would, in fact, be the copyright
> >> > >management scheme which would distinguish titles produced in the NISO
> >> > >standard as qualified titles under the so-called "Chafee Amendement" to
> >> > >U.S. Copyright law. Chafee is a good thing, and we should not lose it.
> >> > >
> >> > >The DMCA is another matter entirely. The NISO thinking was to put the
> >> > >emphasis on catching willful violaters, not on needlessly encumbering
> >> > >honest users. My expectation is that public/private key can do this very
> >> > >well--and can do it in a platform independ matter.
> >> > >
> >> > >Of course there's a chicken and egg aspect to all of this. Who would
> build
> >> > >a player when there's nothing to play? How would one even test it?
> Yet, I
> >> > >would think that this community would not want to leave the
> definitions of
> >> > >what's possible to agencies who are far more steeped in proprietary
> >> > >software than is probably good for the community at large. So, let me
> >> > >simply offer this: I will find some NISO/DAISY content for you to test a
> >> > >player with if you are building a GPL player and need something to work
> >> > >with. Just write me privately.
> >> > >
> >> > >Lastly, let me say just a little more about how much content is actually
> >> > >out there. There is virtually none in the newest version of the standard
> >> > >simply because it's still not 100% nailed down. The NISO folks have
> until
> >> > >December 17 to vote on the specifications that were submitted to them
> just
> >> > >a few weeks ago. You should know that we truly do not expect any
> problems
> >> > >with this voting, and we do expect a lovely Christmas pressent shortly
> >> > >after December 17.
> >> > >
> >> > >There is a fair amount of content available to earlier incarnations
> of the
> >> > >digital talking book specifications as produced by DAISY. In particular,
> >> > >it may be important for players to support the new NISO/DAISY
> >> > >specifications at:
> >> > >
> >> > >	http://www.loc.gov/nls/niso
> >> > >
> >> > >as well as the older, DAISY 2.0 specifications which can be found at:
> >> > >
> >> > >	http://www.daisy.org
> >> > >
> >> > >In particular, RFB&D has been quietly testing textbooks in several K-12
> >> > >schools for blind children around the U.S. They are hoping to begin
> >> > >offering about 3,000 titles encoded in DAISY 2.0 to all their clients
> >> > >sometime during 2002. Also, the talking book programs at CNIB and RNIB
> >> > >(U.K.) are expecting to launch programs for their clients in the
> spring of
> >> > >2002 with approximately2,500 titles in each. So, as you can see, content
> >> > >does already exist in the older DAISY 2.0 specification, though it is
> not
> >> > >yet generally available.
> >> > >
> >> > >Last point on the encryption issues. We expect that whatever copyright
> >> > >based encryption/decryption is involved needs to be nationally based. In
> >> > >other words, the laws that authorize free programs for blind (and
> >> > >otherwise print disabled) people differ country to country. So, any
> >> > >support for a particular solution needs to be modular in order to handle
> >> > >such national differences.
> >> > >
> >> > >I want to end on a more cheerful point. Even mainstream publishers are
> >> > >beginning to realize that encumbering users is a bad way to promote the
> >> > >value of electronic publishing. Please take a look at this website:
> >> > >
> >> > >	http://www.openanebook.org
> >> > >
> >> > >It is intended to be a place for publishers of all kinds to offer their
> >> > >free content and their free tools. So, if you know of any, please offer
> >> > >them up there. And, if you have influence with any blindness agency or
> >> > >ebook publishers, please get them to join DAISY and/or OEBF. We need
> >> > >broader participation in both places in order to realize a vision of
> >> > >epublishing which creates accessible titles that are comfortable and fun
> >> > >to use while still paying authors and editors for the value they add.
> >> > >
> >> > >
> >> > > On
> >> > >Mon, 19 Nov 2001, Martin G. McCormick wrote:
> >> > >
> >> > >> 	I certainly hope that players for DTB's will be available
> >> > >> for Linux when the technology actually begins to bear fruit.
> >> > >>
> >> > >> 	This truly is a wonderful next step in the Talking Book
> >> > >> program. Just think of the logistical problems of moving and
> >> > >> caring for physical materials that this solves.  There will still
> >> > >> need to be traditional Talking Books for many years to come, but
> >> > >> I think this is the future and it may get to a point where there
> >> > >> won't need to be as many physical recordings produced as there
> >> > >> are now.
> >> > >>
> >> > >> 	The one thing I see as holding things up is the one
> >> > >> artificial technical issue and that is DRM or Digital Rights
> >> > >> Management.
> >> > >>
> >> > >> 	How is that going to be accomplished?  The standards
> >> > >> document simply says that digital rights management will be
> >> > >> supported but probably wisely does not prescribe exactly what
> >> > >> sort of mechanism will be used.
> >> > >>
> >> > >> 	Hopefully, being eligible to receive traditional Talking
> >> > >> Books and Braille materials will enable one to also receive any
> >> > >> DTB's they are entitled to receive.
> >> > >>
> >> > >> 	In the main-stream consumer world, digital rights
> >> > >> management has not been doing too well.  Some systems are hacked
> >> > >> almost before they are released.  Other systems tend to do the
> >> > >> opposite and malfunction in ways their developers never thought
> >> > >> of to cause honest users of the technology to be denied service.
> >> > >>
> >> > >> 	Some rights management systems have even gained the
> >> > >> distinction of suffering from both maladies.  The crackers
> >> > >> de fang the protection and the honest users discover that the
> >> > >> software thinks they are thieves because of something their
> >> > >> equipment or they accidentally did.
> >> > >>
> >> > >> 	This issue, not technology, has held up everything from
> >> > >> digital audio tape a decade or so ago to present-day high-definition
> >> > >> television systems.
> >> > >>
> >> > >> 	Linux and FreeBSD should actually be good test beds for
> >> > >> this technology because it is based on open-source models and any
> >> > >> hanky panky mechanisms such as back doors or scripting
> >> > >> applications are a little easier to police than they are in
> >> > >> proprietary operating systems.
> >> > >>
> >> > >> Martin McCormick WB5AGZ  Stillwater, OK
> >> > >> OSU Center for Computing and Information Services Network
> Operations Group
> >> > >>
> >> > >>
> >> > >>
> >> > >> _______________________________________________
> >> > >> Blinux-list mailing list
> >> > >> Blinux-list@redhat.com
> >> > >> https://listman.redhat.com/mailman/listinfo/blinux-list
> >> > >>
> >> > >
> >> > >--
> >> > >
> >> > >				Janina Sajka, Director
> >> > >				Technology Research and Development
> >> > >				Governmental Relations Group
> >> > >				American Foundation for the Blind (AFB)
> >> > >
> >> > >Email: janina@afb.net		Phone: (202) 408-8175
> >> > >
> >> > >Chair, Accessibility SIG
> >> > >Open Electronic Book Forum (OEBF)
> >> > >http://www.openebook.org
> >> > >
> >> > >Will electronic books surpass print books? Read our white paper,
> >> > >Surpassing Gutenberg, at http://www.afb.org/ebook.asp
> >> > >
> >> > >Download a free sample Digital Talking Book edition of Martin Luther
> >> > >King Jr's inspiring "I Have A Dream" speech at
> >> > >http://www.afb.org/mlkweb.asp
> >> > >
> >> > >Learn how to make accessible software at
> >> > >http://www.afb.org/accessapp.asp
> >> > >
> >> > >
> >> > >
> >> > >_______________________________________________
> >> > >Blinux-list mailing list
> >> > >Blinux-list@redhat.com
> >> > >https://listman.redhat.com/mailman/listinfo/blinux-list
> >> > >
> >> > >
> >> >
> >> >
> >> >
> >> > _______________________________________________
> >> > Blinux-list mailing list
> >> > Blinux-list@redhat.com
> >> > https://listman.redhat.com/mailman/listinfo/blinux-list
> >> >
> >> 
> >> 
> >> 
> >> _______________________________________________
> >> Blinux-list mailing list
> >> Blinux-list@redhat.com
> >> https://listman.redhat.com/mailman/listinfo/blinux-list
> >> 
> >
> >
> >
> >_______________________________________________
> >Blinux-list mailing list
> >Blinux-list@redhat.com
> >https://listman.redhat.com/mailman/listinfo/blinux-list
> >
> >
> 
> 
> 
> _______________________________________________
> Blinux-list mailing list
> Blinux-list@redhat.com
> https://listman.redhat.com/mailman/listinfo/blinux-list
> 

Re: Digital Talking Book Standard

[Pratik Patel]

Hi Bret,

I see the key structure that you are describing could be quite ocmplicated
under the windows environment.  The only solution I can propose to solve
this difficulty is to have some type of group key, however, in order to
decript this group key, you would use your personal key.  For instance, only
one decripted stream has to be put in, which is decripted through the group
key.  As a personal key holder, however, you can use your private
phrase/password to decript the data when it gets to you.  This involves a
lot of work to establish.  I'm just throwing out an idea to see what could
be done about it.

Pratik


----- Original Message -----
From: "Brent Harding" <bharding@doorpi.net>
To: <blinux-list@redhat.com>
Sent: Monday, November 19, 2001 11:26 PM
Subject: Re: Digital Talking Book Standard


> Wow, so how would the public/private key encryption work to get the books
> rolling? I suppose, using something like pgp, I could generate you a key
if
> I were the publisher and send it to you on a disk, and encrypt all the
> content I want you to have with it. But this involves a manual process for
> every individual. Thus for example, pgp shoutcast can't exist, in the
> current protocols since only one key can decrypt any one data stream. And
> also, some how you have to turn the encrypted content in to audio that can
> be transmitted through such things if you wanted a pay to hear audio
stream
> for whatever it be. I was thinking of the idea once, but winamp would
choke
> on the encrypted mp3 stream and refuse to transmit it, although in linux
to
> decode you could theoretically do something like
> lynx --source http://aaa.bbb.ccc.ddd:port | pgp -d
> and enter your password for your private key.
> At 11:46 AM 11/19/01 -0500, you wrote:
> >Martin, your message is apt and to the point. And, your instinct for a
> >FREE software digital talking book player is also on the mark. Now is a
> >very, very good time for such a player to come into existence. As someone
> >who continues to be very involved in the development of the NISO/DAISY
dtb
> >standard, I'd like to pose a challenge to the programmers among us:
> >
> >Please give us a dtb player or two which supports the new NISO/DAISY
> >standards--mostly. I say"mostly" because it is not the end of the world
if
> >you can't immediately support MPEG. Please know that the NISO/DAISY
> >standards people are keenly aware of the problems posed by specifying
> >MPEG. Regretably, ogg-vorbis was not judged ready for prime time yet--so
> >if someone wants to work on that, that would also be helpful, because we
> >truly need a GPL compression package that provides quality files that
will
> >compete well with MPEG.
> >
> >Let me say why we need a GPL dtb player right now. I am seriously
> >concerned that agencies will impose some kind of encryption technologies
> >which they will not want to describe to GPL programmers. That would be
> >most unfortunate. Far better, imho, for this community to show that a GPL
> >player can really do the job of accessing (both text and audio) dtbs
well.
> >Far better to show that public/private key encryption may just be
adequate
> >enough.
> >
> >The pendulum has swung away from tight controls, at least among the
> >libraries that serve our communities today. Frankly, the earlier version
> >of the NISO standard was a bit stricter about copyright enforcement--what
> >the publishers like to call "Digital Rights Management." I think even our
> >earlier, stricter model was still smarter than what we've been seeing
from
> >commercial ebook publishers. The commercial publishers are putting the
> >onus on the user and are killing industry prospects by doing so. The
> >earlier recommendations are still online at:
> >
> > http://www.loc.gov/nls/niso/drm.htm
> >
> >In summary, this earlier document expects that some, but certainly not
> >all, titles produced as digital talking books will need to be restricted
> >to qualified recipients in order to maintain long standing programs of
> >free access to books--as with NLS here in the U.S. This would also apply
> >to U.S. agencies such as RFB&D. It would, in fact, be the copyright
> >management scheme which would distinguish titles produced in the NISO
> >standard as qualified titles under the so-called "Chafee Amendement" to
> >U.S. Copyright law. Chafee is a good thing, and we should not lose it.
> >
> >The DMCA is another matter entirely. The NISO thinking was to put the
> >emphasis on catching willful violaters, not on needlessly encumbering
> >honest users. My expectation is that public/private key can do this very
> >well--and can do it in a platform independ matter.
> >
> >Of course there's a chicken and egg aspect to all of this. Who would
build
> >a player when there's nothing to play? How would one even test it? Yet, I
> >would think that this community would not want to leave the definitions
of
> >what's possible to agencies who are far more steeped in proprietary
> >software than is probably good for the community at large. So, let me
> >simply offer this: I will find some NISO/DAISY content for you to test a
> >player with if you are building a GPL player and need something to work
> >with. Just write me privately.
> >
> >Lastly, let me say just a little more about how much content is actually
> >out there. There is virtually none in the newest version of the standard
> >simply because it's still not 100% nailed down. The NISO folks have until
> >December 17 to vote on the specifications that were submitted to them
just
> >a few weeks ago. You should know that we truly do not expect any problems
> >with this voting, and we do expect a lovely Christmas pressent shortly
> >after December 17.
> >
> >There is a fair amount of content available to earlier incarnations of
the
> >digital talking book specifications as produced by DAISY. In particular,
> >it may be important for players to support the new NISO/DAISY
> >specifications at:
> >
> > http://www.loc.gov/nls/niso
> >
> >as well as the older, DAISY 2.0 specifications which can be found at:
> >
> > http://www.daisy.org
> >
> >In particular, RFB&D has been quietly testing textbooks in several K-12
> >schools for blind children around the U.S. They are hoping to begin
> >offering about 3,000 titles encoded in DAISY 2.0 to all their clients
> >sometime during 2002. Also, the talking book programs at CNIB and RNIB
> >(U.K.) are expecting to launch programs for their clients in the spring
of
> >2002 with approximately2,500 titles in each. So, as you can see, content
> >does already exist in the older DAISY 2.0 specification, though it is not
> >yet generally available.
> >
> >Last point on the encryption issues. We expect that whatever copyright
> >based encryption/decryption is involved needs to be nationally based. In
> >other words, the laws that authorize free programs for blind (and
> >otherwise print disabled) people differ country to country. So, any
> >support for a particular solution needs to be modular in order to handle
> >such national differences.
> >
> >I want to end on a more cheerful point. Even mainstream publishers are
> >beginning to realize that encumbering users is a bad way to promote the
> >value of electronic publishing. Please take a look at this website:
> >
> > http://www.openanebook.org
> >
> >It is intended to be a place for publishers of all kinds to offer their
> >free content and their free tools. So, if you know of any, please offer
> >them up there. And, if you have influence with any blindness agency or
> >ebook publishers, please get them to join DAISY and/or OEBF. We need
> >broader participation in both places in order to realize a vision of
> >epublishing which creates accessible titles that are comfortable and fun
> >to use while still paying authors and editors for the value they add.
> >
> >
> > On
> >Mon, 19 Nov 2001, Martin G. McCormick wrote:
> >
> >> I certainly hope that players for DTB's will be available
> >> for Linux when the technology actually begins to bear fruit.
> >>
> >> This truly is a wonderful next step in the Talking Book
> >> program. Just think of the logistical problems of moving and
> >> caring for physical materials that this solves.  There will still
> >> need to be traditional Talking Books for many years to come, but
> >> I think this is the future and it may get to a point where there
> >> won't need to be as many physical recordings produced as there
> >> are now.
> >>
> >> The one thing I see as holding things up is the one
> >> artificial technical issue and that is DRM or Digital Rights
> >> Management.
> >>
> >> How is that going to be accomplished?  The standards
> >> document simply says that digital rights management will be
> >> supported but probably wisely does not prescribe exactly what
> >> sort of mechanism will be used.
> >>
> >> Hopefully, being eligible to receive traditional Talking
> >> Books and Braille materials will enable one to also receive any
> >> DTB's they are entitled to receive.
> >>
> >> In the main-stream consumer world, digital rights
> >> management has not been doing too well.  Some systems are hacked
> >> almost before they are released.  Other systems tend to do the
> >> opposite and malfunction in ways their developers never thought
> >> of to cause honest users of the technology to be denied service.
> >>
> >> Some rights management systems have even gained the
> >> distinction of suffering from both maladies.  The crackers
> >> de fang the protection and the honest users discover that the
> >> software thinks they are thieves because of something their
> >> equipment or they accidentally did.
> >>
> >> This issue, not technology, has held up everything from
> >> digital audio tape a decade or so ago to present-day high-definition
> >> television systems.
> >>
> >> Linux and FreeBSD should actually be good test beds for
> >> this technology because it is based on open-source models and any
> >> hanky panky mechanisms such as back doors or scripting
> >> applications are a little easier to police than they are in
> >> proprietary operating systems.
> >>
> >> Martin McCormick WB5AGZ  Stillwater, OK
> >> OSU Center for Computing and Information Services Network Operations
Group
> >>
> >>
> >>
> >> _______________________________________________
> >> Blinux-list mailing list
> >> Blinux-list@redhat.com
> >> https://listman.redhat.com/mailman/listinfo/blinux-list
> >>
> >
> >--
> >
> > Janina Sajka, Director
> > Technology Research and Development
> > Governmental Relations Group
> > American Foundation for the Blind (AFB)
> >
> >Email: janina@afb.net Phone: (202) 408-8175
> >
> >Chair, Accessibility SIG
> >Open Electronic Book Forum (OEBF)
> >http://www.openebook.org
> >
> >Will electronic books surpass print books? Read our white paper,
> >Surpassing Gutenberg, at http://www.afb.org/ebook.asp
> >
> >Download a free sample Digital Talking Book edition of Martin Luther
> >King Jr's inspiring "I Have A Dream" speech at
> >http://www.afb.org/mlkweb.asp
> >
> >Learn how to make accessible software at
> >http://www.afb.org/accessapp.asp
> >
> >
> >
> >_______________________________________________
> >Blinux-list mailing list
> >Blinux-list@redhat.com
> >https://listman.redhat.com/mailman/listinfo/blinux-list
> >
> >
>
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> Blinux-list mailing list
> Blinux-list@redhat.com
> https://listman.redhat.com/mailman/listinfo/blinux-list
>

Re: Digital Talking Book Standard

[Janina Sajka]

Brent:

We discuss this in the document at http://www.loc.gov/nls/niso/drm.htm


On Tue, 20 Nov 2001, Luke Davis wrote:

> For streaming you would use something dynamic such as SSH, not PGP.
> However I see your point.
> 
> 
> On Mon, 19 Nov 2001, Brent Harding wrote:
> 
> > Wow, so how would the public/private key encryption work to get the books
> > rolling? I suppose, using something like pgp, I could generate you a key if
> > I were the publisher and send it to you on a disk, and encrypt all the
> > content I want you to have with it. But this involves a manual process for
> > every individual. Thus for example, pgp shoutcast can't exist, in the
> > current protocols since only one key can decrypt any one data stream. And
> > also, some how you have to turn the encrypted content in to audio that can
> > be transmitted through such things if you wanted a pay to hear audio stream
> > for whatever it be. I was thinking of the idea once, but winamp would choke
> > on the encrypted mp3 stream and refuse to transmit it, although in linux to
> > decode you could theoretically do something like
> > lynx --source http://aaa.bbb.ccc.ddd:port | pgp -d
> > and enter your password for your private key.
> > At 11:46 AM 11/19/01 -0500, you wrote:
> > >Martin, your message is apt and to the point. And, your instinct for a
> > >FREE software digital talking book player is also on the mark. Now is a
> > >very, very good time for such a player to come into existence. As someone
> > >who continues to be very involved in the development of the NISO/DAISY dtb
> > >standard, I'd like to pose a challenge to the programmers among us:
> > >
> > >Please give us a dtb player or two which supports the new NISO/DAISY
> > >standards--mostly. I say"mostly" because it is not the end of the world if
> > >you can't immediately support MPEG. Please know that the NISO/DAISY
> > >standards people are keenly aware of the problems posed by specifying
> > >MPEG. Regretably, ogg-vorbis was not judged ready for prime time yet--so
> > >if someone wants to work on that, that would also be helpful, because we
> > >truly need a GPL compression package that provides quality files that will
> > >compete well with MPEG.
> > >
> > >Let me say why we need a GPL dtb player right now. I am seriously
> > >concerned that agencies will impose some kind of encryption technologies
> > >which they will not want to describe to GPL programmers. That would be
> > >most unfortunate. Far better, imho, for this community to show that a GPL
> > >player can really do the job of accessing (both text and audio) dtbs well.
> > >Far better to show that public/private key encryption may just be adequate
> > >enough.
> > >
> > >The pendulum has swung away from tight controls, at least among the
> > >libraries that serve our communities today. Frankly, the earlier version
> > >of the NISO standard was a bit stricter about copyright enforcement--what
> > >the publishers like to call "Digital Rights Management." I think even our
> > >earlier, stricter model was still smarter than what we've been seeing from
> > >commercial ebook publishers. The commercial publishers are putting the
> > >onus on the user and are killing industry prospects by doing so. The
> > >earlier recommendations are still online at:
> > >
> > >	http://www.loc.gov/nls/niso/drm.htm
> > >
> > >In summary, this earlier document expects that some, but certainly not
> > >all, titles produced as digital talking books will need to be restricted
> > >to qualified recipients in order to maintain long standing programs of
> > >free access to books--as with NLS here in the U.S. This would also apply
> > >to U.S. agencies such as RFB&D. It would, in fact, be the copyright
> > >management scheme which would distinguish titles produced in the NISO
> > >standard as qualified titles under the so-called "Chafee Amendement" to
> > >U.S. Copyright law. Chafee is a good thing, and we should not lose it.
> > >
> > >The DMCA is another matter entirely. The NISO thinking was to put the
> > >emphasis on catching willful violaters, not on needlessly encumbering
> > >honest users. My expectation is that public/private key can do this very
> > >well--and can do it in a platform independ matter.
> > >
> > >Of course there's a chicken and egg aspect to all of this. Who would build
> > >a player when there's nothing to play? How would one even test it? Yet, I
> > >would think that this community would not want to leave the definitions of
> > >what's possible to agencies who are far more steeped in proprietary
> > >software than is probably good for the community at large. So, let me
> > >simply offer this: I will find some NISO/DAISY content for you to test a
> > >player with if you are building a GPL player and need something to work
> > >with. Just write me privately.
> > >
> > >Lastly, let me say just a little more about how much content is actually
> > >out there. There is virtually none in the newest version of the standard
> > >simply because it's still not 100% nailed down. The NISO folks have until
> > >December 17 to vote on the specifications that were submitted to them just
> > >a few weeks ago. You should know that we truly do not expect any problems
> > >with this voting, and we do expect a lovely Christmas pressent shortly
> > >after December 17.
> > >
> > >There is a fair amount of content available to earlier incarnations of the
> > >digital talking book specifications as produced by DAISY. In particular,
> > >it may be important for players to support the new NISO/DAISY
> > >specifications at:
> > >
> > >	http://www.loc.gov/nls/niso
> > >
> > >as well as the older, DAISY 2.0 specifications which can be found at:
> > >
> > >	http://www.daisy.org
> > >
> > >In particular, RFB&D has been quietly testing textbooks in several K-12
> > >schools for blind children around the U.S. They are hoping to begin
> > >offering about 3,000 titles encoded in DAISY 2.0 to all their clients
> > >sometime during 2002. Also, the talking book programs at CNIB and RNIB
> > >(U.K.) are expecting to launch programs for their clients in the spring of
> > >2002 with approximately2,500 titles in each. So, as you can see, content
> > >does already exist in the older DAISY 2.0 specification, though it is not
> > >yet generally available.
> > >
> > >Last point on the encryption issues. We expect that whatever copyright
> > >based encryption/decryption is involved needs to be nationally based. In
> > >other words, the laws that authorize free programs for blind (and
> > >otherwise print disabled) people differ country to country. So, any
> > >support for a particular solution needs to be modular in order to handle
> > >such national differences.
> > >
> > >I want to end on a more cheerful point. Even mainstream publishers are
> > >beginning to realize that encumbering users is a bad way to promote the
> > >value of electronic publishing. Please take a look at this website:
> > >
> > >	http://www.openanebook.org
> > >
> > >It is intended to be a place for publishers of all kinds to offer their
> > >free content and their free tools. So, if you know of any, please offer
> > >them up there. And, if you have influence with any blindness agency or
> > >ebook publishers, please get them to join DAISY and/or OEBF. We need
> > >broader participation in both places in order to realize a vision of
> > >epublishing which creates accessible titles that are comfortable and fun
> > >to use while still paying authors and editors for the value they add.
> > >
> > >
> > > On
> > >Mon, 19 Nov 2001, Martin G. McCormick wrote:
> > >
> > >> 	I certainly hope that players for DTB's will be available
> > >> for Linux when the technology actually begins to bear fruit.
> > >>
> > >> 	This truly is a wonderful next step in the Talking Book
> > >> program. Just think of the logistical problems of moving and
> > >> caring for physical materials that this solves.  There will still
> > >> need to be traditional Talking Books for many years to come, but
> > >> I think this is the future and it may get to a point where there
> > >> won't need to be as many physical recordings produced as there
> > >> are now.
> > >>
> > >> 	The one thing I see as holding things up is the one
> > >> artificial technical issue and that is DRM or Digital Rights
> > >> Management.
> > >>
> > >> 	How is that going to be accomplished?  The standards
> > >> document simply says that digital rights management will be
> > >> supported but probably wisely does not prescribe exactly what
> > >> sort of mechanism will be used.
> > >>
> > >> 	Hopefully, being eligible to receive traditional Talking
> > >> Books and Braille materials will enable one to also receive any
> > >> DTB's they are entitled to receive.
> > >>
> > >> 	In the main-stream consumer world, digital rights
> > >> management has not been doing too well.  Some systems are hacked
> > >> almost before they are released.  Other systems tend to do the
> > >> opposite and malfunction in ways their developers never thought
> > >> of to cause honest users of the technology to be denied service.
> > >>
> > >> 	Some rights management systems have even gained the
> > >> distinction of suffering from both maladies.  The crackers
> > >> de fang the protection and the honest users discover that the
> > >> software thinks they are thieves because of something their
> > >> equipment or they accidentally did.
> > >>
> > >> 	This issue, not technology, has held up everything from
> > >> digital audio tape a decade or so ago to present-day high-definition
> > >> television systems.
> > >>
> > >> 	Linux and FreeBSD should actually be good test beds for
> > >> this technology because it is based on open-source models and any
> > >> hanky panky mechanisms such as back doors or scripting
> > >> applications are a little easier to police than they are in
> > >> proprietary operating systems.
> > >>
> > >> Martin McCormick WB5AGZ  Stillwater, OK
> > >> OSU Center for Computing and Information Services Network Operations Group
> > >>
> > >>
> > >>
> > >> _______________________________________________
> > >> Blinux-list mailing list
> > >> Blinux-list@redhat.com
> > >> https://listman.redhat.com/mailman/listinfo/blinux-list
> > >>
> > >
> > >--
> > >
> > >				Janina Sajka, Director
> > >				Technology Research and Development
> > >				Governmental Relations Group
> > >				American Foundation for the Blind (AFB)
> > >
> > >Email: janina@afb.net		Phone: (202) 408-8175
> > >
> > >Chair, Accessibility SIG
> > >Open Electronic Book Forum (OEBF)
> > >http://www.openebook.org
> > >
> > >Will electronic books surpass print books? Read our white paper,
> > >Surpassing Gutenberg, at http://www.afb.org/ebook.asp
> > >
> > >Download a free sample Digital Talking Book edition of Martin Luther
> > >King Jr's inspiring "I Have A Dream" speech at
> > >http://www.afb.org/mlkweb.asp
> > >
> > >Learn how to make accessible software at
> > >http://www.afb.org/accessapp.asp
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >_______________________________________________
> > >Blinux-list mailing list
> > >Blinux-list@redhat.com
> > >https://listman.redhat.com/mailman/listinfo/blinux-list
> > >
> > >
> >
> >
> >
> > _______________________________________________
> > Blinux-list mailing list
> > Blinux-list@redhat.com
> > https://listman.redhat.com/mailman/listinfo/blinux-list
> >
> 
> 
> 
> _______________________________________________
> Blinux-list mailing list
> Blinux-list@redhat.com
> https://listman.redhat.com/mailman/listinfo/blinux-list
> 

-- 
	
				Janina Sajka, Director
				Technology Research and Development
				Governmental Relations Group
				American Foundation for the Blind (AFB)

Email: janina@afb.net		Phone: (202) 408-8175

Chair, Accessibility SIG
Open Electronic Book Forum (OEBF)
http://www.openebook.org

Will electronic books surpass print books? Read our white paper,
Surpassing Gutenberg, at http://www.afb.org/ebook.asp

Download a free sample Digital Talking Book edition of Martin Luther
King Jr's inspiring "I Have A Dream" speech at
http://www.afb.org/mlkweb.asp

Learn how to make accessible software at
http://www.afb.org/accessapp.asp

Re: Digital Talking Book Standard

[Brent Harding]

Can it even work in linux? How can group keys work?
At 02:31 PM 11/20/01 -0500, you wrote:
>Hi Bret,
>
>I see the key structure that you are describing could be quite ocmplicated
>under the windows environment.  The only solution I can propose to solve
>this difficulty is to have some type of group key, however, in order to
>decript this group key, you would use your personal key.  For instance, only
>one decripted stream has to be put in, which is decripted through the group
>key.  As a personal key holder, however, you can use your private
>phrase/password to decript the data when it gets to you.  This involves a
>lot of work to establish.  I'm just throwing out an idea to see what could
>be done about it.
>
>Pratik
>
>
>----- Original Message -----
>From: "Brent Harding" <bharding@doorpi.net>
>To: <blinux-list@redhat.com>
>Sent: Monday, November 19, 2001 11:26 PM
>Subject: Re: Digital Talking Book Standard
>
>
>> Wow, so how would the public/private key encryption work to get the books
>> rolling? I suppose, using something like pgp, I could generate you a key
>if
>> I were the publisher and send it to you on a disk, and encrypt all the
>> content I want you to have with it. But this involves a manual process for
>> every individual. Thus for example, pgp shoutcast can't exist, in the
>> current protocols since only one key can decrypt any one data stream. And
>> also, some how you have to turn the encrypted content in to audio that can
>> be transmitted through such things if you wanted a pay to hear audio
>stream
>> for whatever it be. I was thinking of the idea once, but winamp would
>choke
>> on the encrypted mp3 stream and refuse to transmit it, although in linux
>to
>> decode you could theoretically do something like
>> lynx --source http://aaa.bbb.ccc.ddd:port | pgp -d
>> and enter your password for your private key.
>> At 11:46 AM 11/19/01 -0500, you wrote:
>> >Martin, your message is apt and to the point. And, your instinct for a
>> >FREE software digital talking book player is also on the mark. Now is a
>> >very, very good time for such a player to come into existence. As someone
>> >who continues to be very involved in the development of the NISO/DAISY
>dtb
>> >standard, I'd like to pose a challenge to the programmers among us:
>> >
>> >Please give us a dtb player or two which supports the new NISO/DAISY
>> >standards--mostly. I say"mostly" because it is not the end of the world
>if
>> >you can't immediately support MPEG. Please know that the NISO/DAISY
>> >standards people are keenly aware of the problems posed by specifying
>> >MPEG. Regretably, ogg-vorbis was not judged ready for prime time yet--so
>> >if someone wants to work on that, that would also be helpful, because we
>> >truly need a GPL compression package that provides quality files that
>will
>> >compete well with MPEG.
>> >
>> >Let me say why we need a GPL dtb player right now. I am seriously
>> >concerned that agencies will impose some kind of encryption technologies
>> >which they will not want to describe to GPL programmers. That would be
>> >most unfortunate. Far better, imho, for this community to show that a GPL
>> >player can really do the job of accessing (both text and audio) dtbs
>well.
>> >Far better to show that public/private key encryption may just be
>adequate
>> >enough.
>> >
>> >The pendulum has swung away from tight controls, at least among the
>> >libraries that serve our communities today. Frankly, the earlier version
>> >of the NISO standard was a bit stricter about copyright enforcement--what
>> >the publishers like to call "Digital Rights Management." I think even our
>> >earlier, stricter model was still smarter than what we've been seeing
>from
>> >commercial ebook publishers. The commercial publishers are putting the
>> >onus on the user and are killing industry prospects by doing so. The
>> >earlier recommendations are still online at:
>> >
>> > http://www.loc.gov/nls/niso/drm.htm
>> >
>> >In summary, this earlier document expects that some, but certainly not
>> >all, titles produced as digital talking books will need to be restricted
>> >to qualified recipients in order to maintain long standing programs of
>> >free access to books--as with NLS here in the U.S. This would also apply
>> >to U.S. agencies such as RFB&D. It would, in fact, be the copyright
>> >management scheme which would distinguish titles produced in the NISO
>> >standard as qualified titles under the so-called "Chafee Amendement" to
>> >U.S. Copyright law. Chafee is a good thing, and we should not lose it.
>> >
>> >The DMCA is another matter entirely. The NISO thinking was to put the
>> >emphasis on catching willful violaters, not on needlessly encumbering
>> >honest users. My expectation is that public/private key can do this very
>> >well--and can do it in a platform independ matter.
>> >
>> >Of course there's a chicken and egg aspect to all of this. Who would
>build
>> >a player when there's nothing to play? How would one even test it? Yet, I
>> >would think that this community would not want to leave the definitions
>of
>> >what's possible to agencies who are far more steeped in proprietary
>> >software than is probably good for the community at large. So, let me
>> >simply offer this: I will find some NISO/DAISY content for you to test a
>> >player with if you are building a GPL player and need something to work
>> >with. Just write me privately.
>> >
>> >Lastly, let me say just a little more about how much content is actually
>> >out there. There is virtually none in the newest version of the standard
>> >simply because it's still not 100% nailed down. The NISO folks have until
>> >December 17 to vote on the specifications that were submitted to them
>just
>> >a few weeks ago. You should know that we truly do not expect any problems
>> >with this voting, and we do expect a lovely Christmas pressent shortly
>> >after December 17.
>> >
>> >There is a fair amount of content available to earlier incarnations of
>the
>> >digital talking book specifications as produced by DAISY. In particular,
>> >it may be important for players to support the new NISO/DAISY
>> >specifications at:
>> >
>> > http://www.loc.gov/nls/niso
>> >
>> >as well as the older, DAISY 2.0 specifications which can be found at:
>> >
>> > http://www.daisy.org
>> >
>> >In particular, RFB&D has been quietly testing textbooks in several K-12
>> >schools for blind children around the U.S. They are hoping to begin
>> >offering about 3,000 titles encoded in DAISY 2.0 to all their clients
>> >sometime during 2002. Also, the talking book programs at CNIB and RNIB
>> >(U.K.) are expecting to launch programs for their clients in the spring
>of
>> >2002 with approximately2,500 titles in each. So, as you can see, content
>> >does already exist in the older DAISY 2.0 specification, though it is not
>> >yet generally available.
>> >
>> >Last point on the encryption issues. We expect that whatever copyright
>> >based encryption/decryption is involved needs to be nationally based. In
>> >other words, the laws that authorize free programs for blind (and
>> >otherwise print disabled) people differ country to country. So, any
>> >support for a particular solution needs to be modular in order to handle
>> >such national differences.
>> >
>> >I want to end on a more cheerful point. Even mainstream publishers are
>> >beginning to realize that encumbering users is a bad way to promote the
>> >value of electronic publishing. Please take a look at this website:
>> >
>> > http://www.openanebook.org
>> >
>> >It is intended to be a place for publishers of all kinds to offer their
>> >free content and their free tools. So, if you know of any, please offer
>> >them up there. And, if you have influence with any blindness agency or
>> >ebook publishers, please get them to join DAISY and/or OEBF. We need
>> >broader participation in both places in order to realize a vision of
>> >epublishing which creates accessible titles that are comfortable and fun
>> >to use while still paying authors and editors for the value they add.
>> >
>> >
>> > On
>> >Mon, 19 Nov 2001, Martin G. McCormick wrote:
>> >
>> >> I certainly hope that players for DTB's will be available
>> >> for Linux when the technology actually begins to bear fruit.
>> >>
>> >> This truly is a wonderful next step in the Talking Book
>> >> program. Just think of the logistical problems of moving and
>> >> caring for physical materials that this solves.  There will still
>> >> need to be traditional Talking Books for many years to come, but
>> >> I think this is the future and it may get to a point where there
>> >> won't need to be as many physical recordings produced as there
>> >> are now.
>> >>
>> >> The one thing I see as holding things up is the one
>> >> artificial technical issue and that is DRM or Digital Rights
>> >> Management.
>> >>
>> >> How is that going to be accomplished?  The standards
>> >> document simply says that digital rights management will be
>> >> supported but probably wisely does not prescribe exactly what
>> >> sort of mechanism will be used.
>> >>
>> >> Hopefully, being eligible to receive traditional Talking
>> >> Books and Braille materials will enable one to also receive any
>> >> DTB's they are entitled to receive.
>> >>
>> >> In the main-stream consumer world, digital rights
>> >> management has not been doing too well.  Some systems are hacked
>> >> almost before they are released.  Other systems tend to do the
>> >> opposite and malfunction in ways their developers never thought
>> >> of to cause honest users of the technology to be denied service.
>> >>
>> >> Some rights management systems have even gained the
>> >> distinction of suffering from both maladies.  The crackers
>> >> de fang the protection and the honest users discover that the
>> >> software thinks they are thieves because of something their
>> >> equipment or they accidentally did.
>> >>
>> >> This issue, not technology, has held up everything from
>> >> digital audio tape a decade or so ago to present-day high-definition
>> >> television systems.
>> >>
>> >> Linux and FreeBSD should actually be good test beds for
>> >> this technology because it is based on open-source models and any
>> >> hanky panky mechanisms such as back doors or scripting
>> >> applications are a little easier to police than they are in
>> >> proprietary operating systems.
>> >>
>> >> Martin McCormick WB5AGZ  Stillwater, OK
>> >> OSU Center for Computing and Information Services Network Operations
>Group
>> >>
>> >>
>> >>
>> >> _______________________________________________
>> >> Blinux-list mailing list
>> >> Blinux-list@redhat.com
>> >> https://listman.redhat.com/mailman/listinfo/blinux-list
>> >>
>> >
>> >--
>> >
>> > Janina Sajka, Director
>> > Technology Research and Development
>> > Governmental Relations Group
>> > American Foundation for the Blind (AFB)
>> >
>> >Email: janina@afb.net Phone: (202) 408-8175
>> >
>> >Chair, Accessibility SIG
>> >Open Electronic Book Forum (OEBF)
>> >http://www.openebook.org
>> >
>> >Will electronic books surpass print books? Read our white paper,
>> >Surpassing Gutenberg, at http://www.afb.org/ebook.asp
>> >
>> >Download a free sample Digital Talking Book edition of Martin Luther
>> >King Jr's inspiring "I Have A Dream" speech at
>> >http://www.afb.org/mlkweb.asp
>> >
>> >Learn how to make accessible software at
>> >http://www.afb.org/accessapp.asp
>> >
>> >
>> >
>> >_______________________________________________
>> >Blinux-list mailing list
>> >Blinux-list@redhat.com
>> >https://listman.redhat.com/mailman/listinfo/blinux-list
>> >
>> >
>>
>>
>>
>> _______________________________________________
>> Blinux-list mailing list
>> Blinux-list@redhat.com
>> https://listman.redhat.com/mailman/listinfo/blinux-list
>>
>
>
>
>_______________________________________________
>Blinux-list mailing list
>Blinux-list@redhat.com
>https://listman.redhat.com/mailman/listinfo/blinux-list
>
>

Re: Digital Talking Book Standard

[Luke Davis]

A sort of telnet program, that encrypts the connection using RSA or other
encryption systems, which uses public key encryption keys.

Luke


On Tue, 20 Nov 2001, cbowman wrote:

> hi luke, and listers.  luke, I have heard of ssh but, wasn't sure just
> what that is. is that something like telnet, or like a mod just wondering.
> thanks
> charles
>
>
> On Tue, 20 Nov 2001, Luke Davis wrote:
>
> > For streaming you would use something dynamic such as SSH, not PGP.
> > However I see your point.
> >
> >
> > On Mon, 19 Nov 2001, Brent Harding wrote:
> >
> > > Wow, so how would the public/private key encryption work to get the books
> > > rolling? I suppose, using something like pgp, I could generate you a key if
> > > I were the publisher and send it to you on a disk, and encrypt all the
> > > content I want you to have with it. But this involves a manual process for
> > > every individual. Thus for example, pgp shoutcast can't exist, in the
> > > current protocols since only one key can decrypt any one data stream. And
> > > also, some how you have to turn the encrypted content in to audio that can
> > > be transmitted through such things if you wanted a pay to hear audio stream
> > > for whatever it be. I was thinking of the idea once, but winamp would choke
> > > on the encrypted mp3 stream and refuse to transmit it, although in linux to
> > > decode you could theoretically do something like
> > > lynx --source http://aaa.bbb.ccc.ddd:port | pgp -d
> > > and enter your password for your private key.
> > > At 11:46 AM 11/19/01 -0500, you wrote:
> > > >Martin, your message is apt and to the point. And, your instinct for a
> > > >FREE software digital talking book player is also on the mark. Now is a
> > > >very, very good time for such a player to come into existence. As someone
> > > >who continues to be very involved in the development of the NISO/DAISY dtb
> > > >standard, I'd like to pose a challenge to the programmers among us:
> > > >
> > > >Please give us a dtb player or two which supports the new NISO/DAISY
> > > >standards--mostly. I say"mostly" because it is not the end of the world if
> > > >you can't immediately support MPEG. Please know that the NISO/DAISY
> > > >standards people are keenly aware of the problems posed by specifying
> > > >MPEG. Regretably, ogg-vorbis was not judged ready for prime time yet--so
> > > >if someone wants to work on that, that would also be helpful, because we
> > > >truly need a GPL compression package that provides quality files that will
> > > >compete well with MPEG.
> > > >
> > > >Let me say why we need a GPL dtb player right now. I am seriously
> > > >concerned that agencies will impose some kind of encryption technologies
> > > >which they will not want to describe to GPL programmers. That would be
> > > >most unfortunate. Far better, imho, for this community to show that a GPL
> > > >player can really do the job of accessing (both text and audio) dtbs well.
> > > >Far better to show that public/private key encryption may just be adequate
> > > >enough.
> > > >
> > > >The pendulum has swung away from tight controls, at least among the
> > > >libraries that serve our communities today. Frankly, the earlier version
> > > >of the NISO standard was a bit stricter about copyright enforcement--what
> > > >the publishers like to call "Digital Rights Management." I think even our
> > > >earlier, stricter model was still smarter than what we've been seeing from
> > > >commercial ebook publishers. The commercial publishers are putting the
> > > >onus on the user and are killing industry prospects by doing so. The
> > > >earlier recommendations are still online at:
> > > >
> > > >	http://www.loc.gov/nls/niso/drm.htm
> > > >
> > > >In summary, this earlier document expects that some, but certainly not
> > > >all, titles produced as digital talking books will need to be restricted
> > > >to qualified recipients in order to maintain long standing programs of
> > > >free access to books--as with NLS here in the U.S. This would also apply
> > > >to U.S. agencies such as RFB&D. It would, in fact, be the copyright
> > > >management scheme which would distinguish titles produced in the NISO
> > > >standard as qualified titles under the so-called "Chafee Amendement" to
> > > >U.S. Copyright law. Chafee is a good thing, and we should not lose it.
> > > >
> > > >The DMCA is another matter entirely. The NISO thinking was to put the
> > > >emphasis on catching willful violaters, not on needlessly encumbering
> > > >honest users. My expectation is that public/private key can do this very
> > > >well--and can do it in a platform independ matter.
> > > >
> > > >Of course there's a chicken and egg aspect to all of this. Who would build
> > > >a player when there's nothing to play? How would one even test it? Yet, I
> > > >would think that this community would not want to leave the definitions of
> > > >what's possible to agencies who are far more steeped in proprietary
> > > >software than is probably good for the community at large. So, let me
> > > >simply offer this: I will find some NISO/DAISY content for you to test a
> > > >player with if you are building a GPL player and need something to work
> > > >with. Just write me privately.
> > > >
> > > >Lastly, let me say just a little more about how much content is actually
> > > >out there. There is virtually none in the newest version of the standard
> > > >simply because it's still not 100% nailed down. The NISO folks have until
> > > >December 17 to vote on the specifications that were submitted to them just
> > > >a few weeks ago. You should know that we truly do not expect any problems
> > > >with this voting, and we do expect a lovely Christmas pressent shortly
> > > >after December 17.
> > > >
> > > >There is a fair amount of content available to earlier incarnations of the
> > > >digital talking book specifications as produced by DAISY. In particular,
> > > >it may be important for players to support the new NISO/DAISY
> > > >specifications at:
> > > >
> > > >	http://www.loc.gov/nls/niso
> > > >
> > > >as well as the older, DAISY 2.0 specifications which can be found at:
> > > >
> > > >	http://www.daisy.org
> > > >
> > > >In particular, RFB&D has been quietly testing textbooks in several K-12
> > > >schools for blind children around the U.S. They are hoping to begin
> > > >offering about 3,000 titles encoded in DAISY 2.0 to all their clients
> > > >sometime during 2002. Also, the talking book programs at CNIB and RNIB
> > > >(U.K.) are expecting to launch programs for their clients in the spring of
> > > >2002 with approximately2,500 titles in each. So, as you can see, content
> > > >does already exist in the older DAISY 2.0 specification, though it is not
> > > >yet generally available.
> > > >
> > > >Last point on the encryption issues. We expect that whatever copyright
> > > >based encryption/decryption is involved needs to be nationally based. In
> > > >other words, the laws that authorize free programs for blind (and
> > > >otherwise print disabled) people differ country to country. So, any
> > > >support for a particular solution needs to be modular in order to handle
> > > >such national differences.
> > > >
> > > >I want to end on a more cheerful point. Even mainstream publishers are
> > > >beginning to realize that encumbering users is a bad way to promote the
> > > >value of electronic publishing. Please take a look at this website:
> > > >
> > > >	http://www.openanebook.org
> > > >
> > > >It is intended to be a place for publishers of all kinds to offer their
> > > >free content and their free tools. So, if you know of any, please offer
> > > >them up there. And, if you have influence with any blindness agency or
> > > >ebook publishers, please get them to join DAISY and/or OEBF. We need
> > > >broader participation in both places in order to realize a vision of
> > > >epublishing which creates accessible titles that are comfortable and fun
> > > >to use while still paying authors and editors for the value they add.
> > > >
> > > >
> > > > On
> > > >Mon, 19 Nov 2001, Martin G. McCormick wrote:
> > > >
> > > >> 	I certainly hope that players for DTB's will be available
> > > >> for Linux when the technology actually begins to bear fruit.
> > > >>
> > > >> 	This truly is a wonderful next step in the Talking Book
> > > >> program. Just think of the logistical problems of moving and
> > > >> caring for physical materials that this solves.  There will still
> > > >> need to be traditional Talking Books for many years to come, but
> > > >> I think this is the future and it may get to a point where there
> > > >> won't need to be as many physical recordings produced as there
> > > >> are now.
> > > >>
> > > >> 	The one thing I see as holding things up is the one
> > > >> artificial technical issue and that is DRM or Digital Rights
> > > >> Management.
> > > >>
> > > >> 	How is that going to be accomplished?  The standards
> > > >> document simply says that digital rights management will be
> > > >> supported but probably wisely does not prescribe exactly what
> > > >> sort of mechanism will be used.
> > > >>
> > > >> 	Hopefully, being eligible to receive traditional Talking
> > > >> Books and Braille materials will enable one to also receive any
> > > >> DTB's they are entitled to receive.
> > > >>
> > > >> 	In the main-stream consumer world, digital rights
> > > >> management has not been doing too well.  Some systems are hacked
> > > >> almost before they are released.  Other systems tend to do the
> > > >> opposite and malfunction in ways their developers never thought
> > > >> of to cause honest users of the technology to be denied service.
> > > >>
> > > >> 	Some rights management systems have even gained the
> > > >> distinction of suffering from both maladies.  The crackers
> > > >> de fang the protection and the honest users discover that the
> > > >> software thinks they are thieves because of something their
> > > >> equipment or they accidentally did.
> > > >>
> > > >> 	This issue, not technology, has held up everything from
> > > >> digital audio tape a decade or so ago to present-day high-definition
> > > >> television systems.
> > > >>
> > > >> 	Linux and FreeBSD should actually be good test beds for
> > > >> this technology because it is based on open-source models and any
> > > >> hanky panky mechanisms such as back doors or scripting
> > > >> applications are a little easier to police than they are in
> > > >> proprietary operating systems.
> > > >>
> > > >> Martin McCormick WB5AGZ  Stillwater, OK
> > > >> OSU Center for Computing and Information Services Network Operations Group
> > > >>
> > > >>
> > > >>
> > > >> _______________________________________________
> > > >> Blinux-list mailing list
> > > >> Blinux-list@redhat.com
> > > >> https://listman.redhat.com/mailman/listinfo/blinux-list
> > > >>
> > > >
> > > >--
> > > >
> > > >				Janina Sajka, Director
> > > >				Technology Research and Development
> > > >				Governmental Relations Group
> > > >				American Foundation for the Blind (AFB)
> > > >
> > > >Email: janina@afb.net		Phone: (202) 408-8175
> > > >
> > > >Chair, Accessibility SIG
> > > >Open Electronic Book Forum (OEBF)
> > > >http://www.openebook.org
> > > >
> > > >Will electronic books surpass print books? Read our white paper,
> > > >Surpassing Gutenberg, at http://www.afb.org/ebook.asp
> > > >
> > > >Download a free sample Digital Talking Book edition of Martin Luther
> > > >King Jr's inspiring "I Have A Dream" speech at
> > > >http://www.afb.org/mlkweb.asp
> > > >
> > > >Learn how to make accessible software at
> > > >http://www.afb.org/accessapp.asp
> > > >
> > > >
> > > >
> > > >_______________________________________________
> > > >Blinux-list mailing list
> > > >Blinux-list@redhat.com
> > > >https://listman.redhat.com/mailman/listinfo/blinux-list
> > > >
> > > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > > _______________________________________________
> > > Blinux-list mailing list
> > > Blinux-list@redhat.com
> > > https://listman.redhat.com/mailman/listinfo/blinux-list
> > >
> >
> >
> >
> > _______________________________________________
> > Blinux-list mailing list
> > Blinux-list@redhat.com
> > https://listman.redhat.com/mailman/listinfo/blinux-list
> >
>
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> Blinux-list mailing list
> Blinux-list@redhat.com
> https://listman.redhat.com/mailman/listinfo/blinux-list
>

Re: ssh

[Luke Davis]

Um, you sure it is using SSL?

On Tue, 20 Nov 2001, A. R. Vener wrote:

> ssh stands for secure shell. It uses the secure socket
> layer (SSL) to establish a connection machines similar to
> telnet or rsh. It also includes the secure copy (scp) protocol
> as part of the suite.
>
> I've installed it on my machine and reccommend its use as
> a replacement to telnet and password requiremed ftp since the
> password transaction is also encrypted. This is not true for telnet, rsh or
> ftp. If one of the machines is running an illicit sniffer your password can
> be acquired by the sniffer operator when establishing a telnet or ftp
> connection.
>
> You'll need to install first the OpenSSL library and then the
> OpenSSH applications.
>
> Try cvhecking out http://www.openssh.com
>
> Have fun.
>
> rudy
>
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> Blinux-list mailing list
> Blinux-list@redhat.com
> https://listman.redhat.com/mailman/listinfo/blinux-list
>

Re: ssh

[Andor Demarteau]

On Wed, 21 Nov 2001, Luke Davis wrote:

 > Um, you sure it is using SSL?
if he is not sure I am sure about it.
It doesn't use ssl for connecting.
For connecting it use the RSA-algorithm whihc also can be used for
authentication.
In that case, place a publci-RSAkey on the remote host. Then you can use
your RSA-privatekey to connect and thus you don't need a password on the
rmote host.
THis is actually a very good method to allow someone temporary root-access
by placing thre public-key in your .ssh.autorhized_keys file.
ssh is more a replacement for rsh/rexec/rlogin and not of telnet and ftp.

One thing more, you can't replace an ftp-connection by ssh, unless you have
a shell-account on the remote site.


 > On Tue, 20 Nov 2001, A. R. Vener wrote:
 > 
 > > ssh stands for secure shell. It uses the secure socket
 > > layer (SSL) to establish a connection machines similar to
 > > telnet or rsh. It also includes the secure copy (scp) protocol
 > > as part of the suite.
 > >
 > > I've installed it on my machine and reccommend its use as
 > > a replacement to telnet and password requiremed ftp since the
 > > password transaction is also encrypted. This is not true for telnet, rsh or
 > > ftp. If one of the machines is running an illicit sniffer your password can
 > > be acquired by the sniffer operator when establishing a telnet or ftp
 > > connection.
 > >
 > > You'll need to install first the OpenSSL library and then the
 > > OpenSSH applications.
 > >
 > > Try cvhecking out http://www.openssh.com
 > >
 > > Have fun.
 > >
 > > rudy
 > >
 > >
 > >
 > > _______________________________________________
 > > Blinux-list mailing list
 > > Blinux-list@redhat.com
 > > https://listman.redhat.com/mailman/listinfo/blinux-list
 > >
 > 
 > 
 > 
 > _______________________________________________
 > Blinux-list mailing list
 > Blinux-list@redhat.com
 > https://listman.redhat.com/mailman/listinfo/blinux-list
 > 

-- 
slainte mhaith (good health), slainte (cheers)
Uisce Beatha (water of live/health)
-----------
Andor Demarteau                 E-mail: ademarte@students.cs.uu.nl
student computer science        www: http://www.students.cs.uu.nl/~ademarte/
Utrecht University              irc: see webpage for details
-----------
Believe in yourself, know what you want, and make it happen!

Re: Digital Talking Book Standard

[cbowman]

hi luke, good to see you on here.  thanks for letting me know.  
charles 


On Wed, 21 Nov 2001, Luke Davis wrote:

> A sort of telnet program, that encrypts the connection using RSA or other
> encryption systems, which uses public key encryption keys.
> 
> Luke
> 
> 
> On Tue, 20 Nov 2001, cbowman wrote:
> 
> > hi luke, and listers.  luke, I have heard of ssh but, wasn't sure just
> > what that is. is that something like telnet, or like a mod just wondering.
> > thanks
> > charles
> >
> >
> > On Tue, 20 Nov 2001, Luke Davis wrote:
> >
> > > For streaming you would use something dynamic such as SSH, not PGP.
> > > However I see your point.
> > >
> > >
> > > On Mon, 19 Nov 2001, Brent Harding wrote:
> > >
> > > > Wow, so how would the public/private key encryption work to get the books
> > > > rolling? I suppose, using something like pgp, I could generate you a key if
> > > > I were the publisher and send it to you on a disk, and encrypt all the
> > > > content I want you to have with it. But this involves a manual process for
> > > > every individual. Thus for example, pgp shoutcast can't exist, in the
> > > > current protocols since only one key can decrypt any one data stream. And
> > > > also, some how you have to turn the encrypted content in to audio that can
> > > > be transmitted through such things if you wanted a pay to hear audio stream
> > > > for whatever it be. I was thinking of the idea once, but winamp would choke
> > > > on the encrypted mp3 stream and refuse to transmit it, although in linux to
> > > > decode you could theoretically do something like
> > > > lynx --source http://aaa.bbb.ccc.ddd:port | pgp -d
> > > > and enter your password for your private key.
> > > > At 11:46 AM 11/19/01 -0500, you wrote:
> > > > >Martin, your message is apt and to the point. And, your instinct for a
> > > > >FREE software digital talking book player is also on the mark. Now is a
> > > > >very, very good time for such a player to come into existence. As someone
> > > > >who continues to be very involved in the development of the NISO/DAISY dtb
> > > > >standard, I'd like to pose a challenge to the programmers among us:
> > > > >
> > > > >Please give us a dtb player or two which supports the new NISO/DAISY
> > > > >standards--mostly. I say"mostly" because it is not the end of the world if
> > > > >you can't immediately support MPEG. Please know that the NISO/DAISY
> > > > >standards people are keenly aware of the problems posed by specifying
> > > > >MPEG. Regretably, ogg-vorbis was not judged ready for prime time yet--so
> > > > >if someone wants to work on that, that would also be helpful, because we
> > > > >truly need a GPL compression package that provides quality files that will
> > > > >compete well with MPEG.
> > > > >
> > > > >Let me say why we need a GPL dtb player right now. I am seriously
> > > > >concerned that agencies will impose some kind of encryption technologies
> > > > >which they will not want to describe to GPL programmers. That would be
> > > > >most unfortunate. Far better, imho, for this community to show that a GPL
> > > > >player can really do the job of accessing (both text and audio) dtbs well.
> > > > >Far better to show that public/private key encryption may just be adequate
> > > > >enough.
> > > > >
> > > > >The pendulum has swung away from tight controls, at least among the
> > > > >libraries that serve our communities today. Frankly, the earlier version
> > > > >of the NISO standard was a bit stricter about copyright enforcement--what
> > > > >the publishers like to call "Digital Rights Management." I think even our
> > > > >earlier, stricter model was still smarter than what we've been seeing from
> > > > >commercial ebook publishers. The commercial publishers are putting the
> > > > >onus on the user and are killing industry prospects by doing so. The
> > > > >earlier recommendations are still online at:
> > > > >
> > > > >	http://www.loc.gov/nls/niso/drm.htm
> > > > >
> > > > >In summary, this earlier document expects that some, but certainly not
> > > > >all, titles produced as digital talking books will need to be restricted
> > > > >to qualified recipients in order to maintain long standing programs of
> > > > >free access to books--as with NLS here in the U.S. This would also apply
> > > > >to U.S. agencies such as RFB&D. It would, in fact, be the copyright
> > > > >management scheme which would distinguish titles produced in the NISO
> > > > >standard as qualified titles under the so-called "Chafee Amendement" to
> > > > >U.S. Copyright law. Chafee is a good thing, and we should not lose it.
> > > > >
> > > > >The DMCA is another matter entirely. The NISO thinking was to put the
> > > > >emphasis on catching willful violaters, not on needlessly encumbering
> > > > >honest users. My expectation is that public/private key can do this very
> > > > >well--and can do it in a platform independ matter.
> > > > >
> > > > >Of course there's a chicken and egg aspect to all of this. Who would build
> > > > >a player when there's nothing to play? How would one even test it? Yet, I
> > > > >would think that this community would not want to leave the definitions of
> > > > >what's possible to agencies who are far more steeped in proprietary
> > > > >software than is probably good for the community at large. So, let me
> > > > >simply offer this: I will find some NISO/DAISY content for you to test a
> > > > >player with if you are building a GPL player and need something to work
> > > > >with. Just write me privately.
> > > > >
> > > > >Lastly, let me say just a little more about how much content is actually
> > > > >out there. There is virtually none in the newest version of the standard
> > > > >simply because it's still not 100% nailed down. The NISO folks have until
> > > > >December 17 to vote on the specifications that were submitted to them just
> > > > >a few weeks ago. You should know that we truly do not expect any problems
> > > > >with this voting, and we do expect a lovely Christmas pressent shortly
> > > > >after December 17.
> > > > >
> > > > >There is a fair amount of content available to earlier incarnations of the
> > > > >digital talking book specifications as produced by DAISY. In particular,
> > > > >it may be important for players to support the new NISO/DAISY
> > > > >specifications at:
> > > > >
> > > > >	http://www.loc.gov/nls/niso
> > > > >
> > > > >as well as the older, DAISY 2.0 specifications which can be found at:
> > > > >
> > > > >	http://www.daisy.org
> > > > >
> > > > >In particular, RFB&D has been quietly testing textbooks in several K-12
> > > > >schools for blind children around the U.S. They are hoping to begin
> > > > >offering about 3,000 titles encoded in DAISY 2.0 to all their clients
> > > > >sometime during 2002. Also, the talking book programs at CNIB and RNIB
> > > > >(U.K.) are expecting to launch programs for their clients in the spring of
> > > > >2002 with approximately2,500 titles in each. So, as you can see, content
> > > > >does already exist in the older DAISY 2.0 specification, though it is not
> > > > >yet generally available.
> > > > >
> > > > >Last point on the encryption issues. We expect that whatever copyright
> > > > >based encryption/decryption is involved needs to be nationally based. In
> > > > >other words, the laws that authorize free programs for blind (and
> > > > >otherwise print disabled) people differ country to country. So, any
> > > > >support for a particular solution needs to be modular in order to handle
> > > > >such national differences.
> > > > >
> > > > >I want to end on a more cheerful point. Even mainstream publishers are
> > > > >beginning to realize that encumbering users is a bad way to promote the
> > > > >value of electronic publishing. Please take a look at this website:
> > > > >
> > > > >	http://www.openanebook.org
> > > > >
> > > > >It is intended to be a place for publishers of all kinds to offer their
> > > > >free content and their free tools. So, if you know of any, please offer
> > > > >them up there. And, if you have influence with any blindness agency or
> > > > >ebook publishers, please get them to join DAISY and/or OEBF. We need
> > > > >broader participation in both places in order to realize a vision of
> > > > >epublishing which creates accessible titles that are comfortable and fun
> > > > >to use while still paying authors and editors for the value they add.
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > > On
> > > > >Mon, 19 Nov 2001, Martin G. McCormick wrote:
> > > > >
> > > > >> 	I certainly hope that players for DTB's will be available
> > > > >> for Linux when the technology actually begins to bear fruit.
> > > > >>
> > > > >> 	This truly is a wonderful next step in the Talking Book
> > > > >> program. Just think of the logistical problems of moving and
> > > > >> caring for physical materials that this solves.  There will still
> > > > >> need to be traditional Talking Books for many years to come, but
> > > > >> I think this is the future and it may get to a point where there
> > > > >> won't need to be as many physical recordings produced as there
> > > > >> are now.
> > > > >>
> > > > >> 	The one thing I see as holding things up is the one
> > > > >> artificial technical issue and that is DRM or Digital Rights
> > > > >> Management.
> > > > >>
> > > > >> 	How is that going to be accomplished?  The standards
> > > > >> document simply says that digital rights management will be
> > > > >> supported but probably wisely does not prescribe exactly what
> > > > >> sort of mechanism will be used.
> > > > >>
> > > > >> 	Hopefully, being eligible to receive traditional Talking
> > > > >> Books and Braille materials will enable one to also receive any
> > > > >> DTB's they are entitled to receive.
> > > > >>
> > > > >> 	In the main-stream consumer world, digital rights
> > > > >> management has not been doing too well.  Some systems are hacked
> > > > >> almost before they are released.  Other systems tend to do the
> > > > >> opposite and malfunction in ways their developers never thought
> > > > >> of to cause honest users of the technology to be denied service.
> > > > >>
> > > > >> 	Some rights management systems have even gained the
> > > > >> distinction of suffering from both maladies.  The crackers
> > > > >> de fang the protection and the honest users discover that the
> > > > >> software thinks they are thieves because of something their
> > > > >> equipment or they accidentally did.
> > > > >>
> > > > >> 	This issue, not technology, has held up everything from
> > > > >> digital audio tape a decade or so ago to present-day high-definition
> > > > >> television systems.
> > > > >>
> > > > >> 	Linux and FreeBSD should actually be good test beds for
> > > > >> this technology because it is based on open-source models and any
> > > > >> hanky panky mechanisms such as back doors or scripting
> > > > >> applications are a little easier to police than they are in
> > > > >> proprietary operating systems.
> > > > >>
> > > > >> Martin McCormick WB5AGZ  Stillwater, OK
> > > > >> OSU Center for Computing and Information Services Network Operations Group
> > > > >>
> > > > >>
> > > > >>
> > > > >> _______________________________________________
> > > > >> Blinux-list mailing list
> > > > >> Blinux-list@redhat.com
> > > > >> https://listman.redhat.com/mailman/listinfo/blinux-list
> > > > >>
> > > > >
> > > > >--
> > > > >
> > > > >				Janina Sajka, Director
> > > > >				Technology Research and Development
> > > > >				Governmental Relations Group
> > > > >				American Foundation for the Blind (AFB)
> > > > >
> > > > >Email: janina@afb.net		Phone: (202) 408-8175
> > > > >
> > > > >Chair, Accessibility SIG
> > > > >Open Electronic Book Forum (OEBF)
> > > > >http://www.openebook.org
> > > > >
> > > > >Will electronic books surpass print books? Read our white paper,
> > > > >Surpassing Gutenberg, at http://www.afb.org/ebook.asp
> > > > >
> > > > >Download a free sample Digital Talking Book edition of Martin Luther
> > > > >King Jr's inspiring "I Have A Dream" speech at
> > > > >http://www.afb.org/mlkweb.asp
> > > > >
> > > > >Learn how to make accessible software at
> > > > >http://www.afb.org/accessapp.asp
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > >_______________________________________________
> > > > >Blinux-list mailing list
> > > > >Blinux-list@redhat.com
> > > > >https://listman.redhat.com/mailman/listinfo/blinux-list
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > >
> > > >
> > > >
> > > > _______________________________________________
> > > > Blinux-list mailing list
> > > > Blinux-list@redhat.com
> > > > https://listman.redhat.com/mailman/listinfo/blinux-list
> > > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > > _______________________________________________
> > > Blinux-list mailing list
> > > Blinux-list@redhat.com
> > > https://listman.redhat.com/mailman/listinfo/blinux-list
> > >
> >
> >
> >
> > _______________________________________________
> > Blinux-list mailing list
> > Blinux-list@redhat.com
> > https://listman.redhat.com/mailman/listinfo/blinux-list
> >
> 
> 
> 
> _______________________________________________
> Blinux-list mailing list
> Blinux-list@redhat.com
> https://listman.redhat.com/mailman/listinfo/blinux-list
> 

Re: ssh

[cbowman]

hi, I just had a thought when reading this. is it posable to download with
ssh, or to grab files on the net with this insted of ftp? thanks alot. 
charles 


On Wed, 21 Nov 2001, Luke Davis wrote:

> Um, you sure it is using SSL?
> 
> On Tue, 20 Nov 2001, A. R. Vener wrote:
> 
> > ssh stands for secure shell. It uses the secure socket
> > layer (SSL) to establish a connection machines similar to
> > telnet or rsh. It also includes the secure copy (scp) protocol
> > as part of the suite.
> >
> > I've installed it on my machine and reccommend its use as
> > a replacement to telnet and password requiremed ftp since the
> > password transaction is also encrypted. This is not true for telnet, rsh or
> > ftp. If one of the machines is running an illicit sniffer your password can
> > be acquired by the sniffer operator when establishing a telnet or ftp
> > connection.
> >
> > You'll need to install first the OpenSSL library and then the
> > OpenSSH applications.
> >
> > Try cvhecking out http://www.openssh.com
> >
> > Have fun.
> >
> > rudy
> >
> >
> >
> > _______________________________________________
> > Blinux-list mailing list
> > Blinux-list@redhat.com
> > https://listman.redhat.com/mailman/listinfo/blinux-list
> >
> 
> 
> 
> _______________________________________________
> Blinux-list mailing list
> Blinux-list@redhat.com
> https://listman.redhat.com/mailman/listinfo/blinux-list
> 

Re: ssh

[Luke Davis]

That is what I thought, thanks.

Starting to think I had missed something big.:)

Luke


On Thu, 22 Nov 2001, Andor Demarteau wrote:

> On Wed, 21 Nov 2001, Luke Davis wrote:
>
>  > Um, you sure it is using SSL?
> if he is not sure I am sure about it.
> It doesn't use ssl for connecting.
> For connecting it use the RSA-algorithm whihc also can be used for
> authentication.
> In that case, place a publci-RSAkey on the remote host. Then you can use
> your RSA-privatekey to connect and thus you don't need a password on the
> rmote host.
> THis is actually a very good method to allow someone temporary root-access
> by placing thre public-key in your .ssh.autorhized_keys file.
> ssh is more a replacement for rsh/rexec/rlogin and not of telnet and ftp.
>
> One thing more, you can't replace an ftp-connection by ssh, unless you have
> a shell-account on the remote site.
>
>
>  > On Tue, 20 Nov 2001, A. R. Vener wrote:
>  >
>  > > ssh stands for secure shell. It uses the secure socket
>  > > layer (SSL) to establish a connection machines similar to
>  > > telnet or rsh. It also includes the secure copy (scp) protocol
>  > > as part of the suite.
>  > >
>  > > I've installed it on my machine and reccommend its use as
>  > > a replacement to telnet and password requiremed ftp since the
>  > > password transaction is also encrypted. This is not true for telnet, rsh or
>  > > ftp. If one of the machines is running an illicit sniffer your password can
>  > > be acquired by the sniffer operator when establishing a telnet or ftp
>  > > connection.
>  > >
>  > > You'll need to install first the OpenSSL library and then the
>  > > OpenSSH applications.
>  > >
>  > > Try cvhecking out http://www.openssh.com
>  > >
>  > > Have fun.
>  > >
>  > > rudy
>  > >
>  > >
>  > >
>  > > _______________________________________________
>  > > Blinux-list mailing list
>  > > Blinux-list@redhat.com
>  > > https://listman.redhat.com/mailman/listinfo/blinux-list
>  > >
>  >
>  >
>  >
>  > _______________________________________________
>  > Blinux-list mailing list
>  > Blinux-list@redhat.com
>  > https://listman.redhat.com/mailman/listinfo/blinux-list
>  >
>
>

Re: ssh

[A. R. Vener]

Fairly sure. I compiled my ssh package from source. It needed
the SSL library to compile. It generates an encryption key. When
using the debug or verbose mode I can see all the security handshaking
the client and server exchange.  From this I infer that it is
using the SSL protocol.



Rudy

On Wed, Nov 21, 2001 at 09:44:24PM -0500, Luke Davis wrote:
> Um, you sure it is using SSL?
> 
> On Tue, 20 Nov 2001, A. R. Vener wrote:
> 
> > ssh stands for secure shell. It uses the secure socket
> > layer (SSL) to establish a connection machines similar to
> > telnet or rsh. It also includes the secure copy (scp) protocol
> > as part of the suite.
> >
> > I've installed it on my machine and reccommend its use as
> > a replacement to telnet and password requiremed ftp since the
> > password transaction is also encrypted. This is not true for telnet, rsh or
> > ftp. If one of the machines is running an illicit sniffer your password can
> > be acquired by the sniffer operator when establishing a telnet or ftp
> > connection.
> >
> > You'll need to install first the OpenSSL library and then the
> > OpenSSH applications.
> >
> > Try cvhecking out http://www.openssh.com
> >
> > Have fun.
> >
> > rudy
> >
> >
> >
> > _______________________________________________
> > Blinux-list mailing list
> > Blinux-list@redhat.com
> > https://listman.redhat.com/mailman/listinfo/blinux-list
> >
> 
> 
> 
> _______________________________________________
> Blinux-list mailing list
> Blinux-list@redhat.com
> https://listman.redhat.com/mailman/listinfo/blinux-list

Re: ssh

[A. R. Vener]

No because you need to set up both ends of the connection
to perform authentication. 

The ssh packages include scp or secure copy. I use this only
when copying files to and from one of my accounts to another
over the internet. I use scp so that I don't need to expose my
password.  

For most internet file transfers, ftp is fine because most
use anonymous ftp.  If you have to transfer files to or from a 
machine which requires you to vhave a login and password you are better
off using ssh/scp with that machine.

rudy

> hi, I just had a thought when reading this. is it posable to download with
> ssh, or to grab files on the net with this insted of ftp? thanks alot. 
> charles 
> 
> 
> On Wed, 21 Nov 2001, Luke Davis wrote:
> 
> > Um, you sure it is using SSL?
> > 
> > On Tue, 20 Nov 2001, A. R. Vener wrote:
> > 
> > > ssh stands for secure shell. It uses the secure socket
> > > layer (SSL) to establish a connection machines similar to
> > > telnet or rsh. It also includes the secure copy (scp) protocol
> > > as part of the suite.
> > >
> > > I've installed it on my machine and reccommend its use as
> > > a replacement to telnet and password requiremed ftp since the
> > > password transaction is also encrypted. This is not true for telnet, rsh or
> > > ftp. If one of the machines is running an illicit sniffer your password can
> > > be acquired by the sniffer operator when establishing a telnet or ftp
> > > connection.
> > >
> > > You'll need to install first the OpenSSL library and then the
> > > OpenSSH applications.
> > >
> > > Try cvhecking out http://www.openssh.com
> > >
> > > Have fun.
> > >
> > > rudy
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > > _______________________________________________
> > > Blinux-list mailing list
> > > Blinux-list@redhat.com
> > > https://listman.redhat.com/mailman/listinfo/blinux-list
> > >
> > 
> > 
> > 
> > _______________________________________________
> > Blinux-list mailing list
> > Blinux-list@redhat.com
> > https://listman.redhat.com/mailman/listinfo/blinux-list
> > 
> 
> 
> 
> _______________________________________________
> Blinux-list mailing list
> Blinux-list@redhat.com
> https://listman.redhat.com/mailman/listinfo/blinux-list

Re: ssh

[Luke Davis]

Read your manual page.  It's RSA, over a clear connection.

Luke


On Sat, 24 Nov 2001, A. R. Vener wrote:

> Fairly sure. I compiled my ssh package from source. It needed
> the SSL library to compile. It generates an encryption key. When
> using the debug or verbose mode I can see all the security handshaking
> the client and server exchange.  From this I infer that it is
> using the SSL protocol.
>
>
>
> Rudy
>
> On Wed, Nov 21, 2001 at 09:44:24PM -0500, Luke Davis wrote:
> > Um, you sure it is using SSL?
> >
> > On Tue, 20 Nov 2001, A. R. Vener wrote:
> >
> > > ssh stands for secure shell. It uses the secure socket
> > > layer (SSL) to establish a connection machines similar to
> > > telnet or rsh. It also includes the secure copy (scp) protocol
> > > as part of the suite.
> > >
> > > I've installed it on my machine and reccommend its use as
> > > a replacement to telnet and password requiremed ftp since the
> > > password transaction is also encrypted. This is not true for telnet, rsh or
> > > ftp. If one of the machines is running an illicit sniffer your password can
> > > be acquired by the sniffer operator when establishing a telnet or ftp
> > > connection.
> > >
> > > You'll need to install first the OpenSSL library and then the
> > > OpenSSH applications.
> > >
> > > Try cvhecking out http://www.openssh.com
> > >
> > > Have fun.
> > >
> > > rudy
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > > _______________________________________________
> > > Blinux-list mailing list
> > > Blinux-list@redhat.com
> > > https://listman.redhat.com/mailman/listinfo/blinux-list
> > >
> >
> >
> >
> > _______________________________________________
> > Blinux-list mailing list
> > Blinux-list@redhat.com
> > https://listman.redhat.com/mailman/listinfo/blinux-list
>
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> Blinux-list mailing list
> Blinux-list@redhat.com
> https://listman.redhat.com/mailman/listinfo/blinux-list
>

Re: ssh

[Fredrik Larsson]

Hi,

I know that this is off-topic as much as the rest of this discussion but I
take a chance and asks a question about ssh as well. :-)

I have compiled and installed ssh and get a problem. When I connect to an
ssh account I am not allowed to enter a password, the prompt does not show
up. Instead it says "too many login failures permission dinied". However,
if I as root do ssh -l username I get the password prompt and everything
works fine. What is the difference?

Fredrik

Re: ssh

[Luke Davis]

Have you worked up a proper config file, particularly the
"numberofpasswordprompts" directive?

Luke



On Sun, 25 Nov 2001, Fredrik Larsson wrote:

> Hi,
>
> I know that this is off-topic as much as the rest of this discussion but I
> take a chance and asks a question about ssh as well. :-)
>
> I have compiled and installed ssh and get a problem. When I connect to an
> ssh account I am not allowed to enter a password, the prompt does not show
> up. Instead it says "too many login failures permission dinied". However,
> if I as root do ssh -l username I get the password prompt and everything
> works fine. What is the difference?
>
> Fredrik
>
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> Blinux-list mailing list
> Blinux-list@redhat.com
> https://listman.redhat.com/mailman/listinfo/blinux-list
>

Re: ssh

[Fredrik Larsson]

Hi,

The default value for that option is 3. I explicitly set it but it makes
no difference. As I say it works fine when root executes slogin with -l
option set to my user name, but not when I login as that user name and try
to connect. I get: "too many failed userauth_requests" even though I have
the same user name on the remote machine as local.

Fredrik