Ameritech.net

Ameritech.net

[Karl Dahlke]

For what it's worth, and it isn't worth much,
I used Ameritech dial-up service for almost a year,
and was very happy with it.
I left only because I wanted a cable modem.

Of course I was happy because everything worked for me straight away,
and I didn't have to ask their technical department for help.

I'm a bit confused by this whole thread.
I thought dsl was a static always on connection.
Why ppp?
Why pppd?
Why ppp0?
Don't they give you a box that looks like a cable modem,
with a nic interface,
and don't you just plug into that, like an ethernet?
Don't you just set up for an ethernet connection and go?
I guess I don't know much about dsl,
so I'll stop talking now,
before I do more harm than good.

Karl

Re: Ameritech.net

[Cheryl Homiak]

Yes, what you say is true as far as it goes; dsl is done by ethernet with
an ethernet modem.  However, you have to have software to make this work;
for windows users, this software comes with the installation kit, but for
linux users it means installing packages.  In this case, it was pppoe
(roaring penguin version).  Aparently, pppoe works in combination with
pppd for linking; if all went well, this would happen at boot and there
would be no problem.  However, in this case, all did not go well and I
don't know why.  I am sure lots of people have good experiences with
ameritech; I was only relating my experience so people could be warned
that they might have a problem.

Cheryl

Re: Ameritech.net

[Cheryl Homiak]

I should add that there are actually several kinds of dsl connections; if
you become interested, the dsl howto would be a good place to start.

Cheryl

Re: Ameritech.net

[Janina Sajka]

I was a Verizon DSL customer when the company was still called Bell 
Atlantic and when consumer DSL service was still very new beginning in 
February 1999. In those days, DSL customers were assigned static IPs. My 
personal experience was that the service was great when it worked, which 
wasn't quite enough of the time. I had long periods of down time--about 
two weeks every three months or so. Calling tech support was a nightmare. 
First, I would sit on hold listening to the same clip of Vivaldi for tens 
of minutes. A half-hour wait was common, and the Vivaldi never 
changed--always the same snipit from the first movement of Spring. Once I 
got first level tier support my problems only got worse. Clearly, it was 
my fault because I wasn't in Windows. Clearly, when I rebooted into 
Windows, it was the screen reader. Once I pushed up to second, and even 
third tier support, it was, of course, never my fault. At least twice they 
moved me to ppoe without even telling me they were doing it. Mostly, they 
just couldn't explain it--system upgrades at the CO, please call back if 
the problem persists.

I will not be a Telco DSL customer again, mostly because of their terrible 
track record with me, but also because they've moved away from DSL 
technology I care to buy. They have indeed found ways to provision DSL in 
ways I don't fully understand--and don't care to. It's more than dynamic 
IPs. I was surprised recently when a friend was installing Verizon DSL on 
his Windows computer--surprised to learn that the install added an icon to 
his Dial Up Networking program group.

In essence, I suspect the telco's judge ip space and general network 
resources insuficient to support the millions of customers they want to 
sell. They want the customers money, but expect they will not use 
persistent connections any more than they use dial up connections. My 
friends DUN based DSL would disconnect on inactivity. Voice phone service 
network capacity is based, as I understand it, on the expectation that the 
average phone call will last four minutes. I'm sure they also have a 
number of calls per month in mind as an average. Of course, they have to 
make those kinds of predictions in order to build out adequate 
infrastructure. But, I have no desire to be part of a broadband service 
that expects casual and occasional web surfing. So, no more telco DSL for 
me.

My advice is to seek a quality provider. My answer, for myself, was 
speakeasy.net for two crowning reasons:

1.)	They actively support linux. In fact, I believe their servers run 
Redhat;
2.)	They actively have no problem with home networks;

Most providers have problems over linux even if their technology doesn't,
and have fine print that prohibits multiple machines accessing the
service. So, I choose to go with the provider that supports the OS and
features I want and support.


 On Thu, 6 Sep 
2001, Karl Dahlke wrote:

> For what it's worth, and it isn't worth much,
> I used Ameritech dial-up service for almost a year,
> and was very happy with it.
> I left only because I wanted a cable modem.
> 
> Of course I was happy because everything worked for me straight away,
> and I didn't have to ask their technical department for help.
> 
> I'm a bit confused by this whole thread.
> I thought dsl was a static always on connection.
> Why ppp?
> Why pppd?
> Why ppp0?
> Don't they give you a box that looks like a cable modem,
> with a nic interface,
> and don't you just plug into that, like an ethernet?
> Don't you just set up for an ethernet connection and go?
> I guess I don't know much about dsl,
> so I'll stop talking now,
> before I do more harm than good.
> 
> Karl
> 
> 
> 
> _______________________________________________
> Blinux-list mailing list
> Blinux-list@redhat.com
> https://listman.redhat.com/mailman/listinfo/blinux-list
> 

-- 
	
				Janina Sajka, Director
				Technology Research and Development
				Governmental Relations Group
				American Foundation for the Blind (AFB)

Email: janina@afb.net		Phone: (202) 408-8175

Chair, Accessibility SIG
Open Electronic Book Forum (OEBF)
http://www.openebook.org

Will electronic books surpass print books? Read our white paper,
Surpassing Gutenberg, at http://www.afb.org/ebook.asp

Download a free sample Digital Talking Book edition of Martin Luther
King Jr's inspiring "I Have A Dream" speech at
http://www.afb.org/mlkweb.asp

Learn how to make accessible software at
http://www.afb.org/accessapp.asp

Re: Ameritech.net

[John J. Boyer]

Hello,
We have had DSL from TDS Metrocom for about three months and have never had
down time. I think they us HPCH or some other bit of alphabet soup, but it's
not PPOE. It supports our entire office with five computers. We only had
tweak Windows' network settings to make it work.
Just a positive note amid all the negative ones.
John

Computers to Help People, Inc.
http://www.chpi.org
825 East Johnson; Madison, WI 53703


----- Original Message -----
From: "Janina Sajka" <janina@afb.net>
To: <blinux-list@redhat.com>
Sent: Friday, September 07, 2001 09:29
Subject: Re: Ameritech.net


> I was a Verizon DSL customer when the company was still called Bell
> Atlantic and when consumer DSL service was still very new beginning in
> February 1999. In those days, DSL customers were assigned static IPs. My
> personal experience was that the service was great when it worked, which
> wasn't quite enough of the time. I had long periods of down time--about
> two weeks every three months or so. Calling tech support was a nightmare.
> First, I would sit on hold listening to the same clip of Vivaldi for tens
> of minutes. A half-hour wait was common, and the Vivaldi never
> changed--always the same snipit from the first movement of Spring. Once I
> got first level tier support my problems only got worse. Clearly, it was
> my fault because I wasn't in Windows. Clearly, when I rebooted into
> Windows, it was the screen reader. Once I pushed up to second, and even
> third tier support, it was, of course, never my fault. At least twice they
> moved me to ppoe without even telling me they were doing it. Mostly, they
> just couldn't explain it--system upgrades at the CO, please call back if
> the problem persists.
>
> I will not be a Telco DSL customer again, mostly because of their terrible
> track record with me, but also because they've moved away from DSL
> technology I care to buy. They have indeed found ways to provision DSL in
> ways I don't fully understand--and don't care to. It's more than dynamic
> IPs. I was surprised recently when a friend was installing Verizon DSL on
> his Windows computer--surprised to learn that the install added an icon to
> his Dial Up Networking program group.
>
> In essence, I suspect the telco's judge ip space and general network
> resources insuficient to support the millions of customers they want to
> sell. They want the customers money, but expect they will not use
> persistent connections any more than they use dial up connections. My
> friends DUN based DSL would disconnect on inactivity. Voice phone service
> network capacity is based, as I understand it, on the expectation that the
> average phone call will last four minutes. I'm sure they also have a
> number of calls per month in mind as an average. Of course, they have to
> make those kinds of predictions in order to build out adequate
> infrastructure. But, I have no desire to be part of a broadband service
> that expects casual and occasional web surfing. So, no more telco DSL for
> me.
>
> My advice is to seek a quality provider. My answer, for myself, was
> speakeasy.net for two crowning reasons:
>
> 1.) They actively support linux. In fact, I believe their servers run
> Redhat;
> 2.) They actively have no problem with home networks;
>
> Most providers have problems over linux even if their technology doesn't,
> and have fine print that prohibits multiple machines accessing the
> service. So, I choose to go with the provider that supports the OS and
> features I want and support.
>
>
>  On Thu, 6 Sep
> 2001, Karl Dahlke wrote:
>
> > For what it's worth, and it isn't worth much,
> > I used Ameritech dial-up service for almost a year,
> > and was very happy with it.
> > I left only because I wanted a cable modem.
> >
> > Of course I was happy because everything worked for me straight away,
> > and I didn't have to ask their technical department for help.
> >
> > I'm a bit confused by this whole thread.
> > I thought dsl was a static always on connection.
> > Why ppp?
> > Why pppd?
> > Why ppp0?
> > Don't they give you a box that looks like a cable modem,
> > with a nic interface,
> > and don't you just plug into that, like an ethernet?
> > Don't you just set up for an ethernet connection and go?
> > I guess I don't know much about dsl,
> > so I'll stop talking now,
> > before I do more harm than good.
> >
> > Karl
> >
> >
> >
> > _______________________________________________
> > Blinux-list mailing list
> > Blinux-list@redhat.com
> > https://listman.redhat.com/mailman/listinfo/blinux-list
> >
>
> --
>
> Janina Sajka, Director
> Technology Research and Development
> Governmental Relations Group
> American Foundation for the Blind (AFB)
>
> Email: janina@afb.net Phone: (202) 408-8175
>
> Chair, Accessibility SIG
> Open Electronic Book Forum (OEBF)
> http://www.openebook.org
>
> Will electronic books surpass print books? Read our white paper,
> Surpassing Gutenberg, at http://www.afb.org/ebook.asp
>
> Download a free sample Digital Talking Book edition of Martin Luther
> King Jr's inspiring "I Have A Dream" speech at
> http://www.afb.org/mlkweb.asp
>
> Learn how to make accessible software at
> http://www.afb.org/accessapp.asp
>
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> Blinux-list mailing list
> Blinux-list@redhat.com
> https://listman.redhat.com/mailman/listinfo/blinux-list
>

Re: Ameritech.net

[Janina Sajka]

John:

I hope I didn't come across as anti-DSL. I love my DSL. There are 
certainly good providers out there--folks who provide quality and service. 
And, maybe the telco's are even right for some people. I suppose my point 
is to consider what one is buying. All providers are not equal.
 On Fri, 7 
Sep 2001, John J. Boyer wrote:

> Hello,
> We have had DSL from TDS Metrocom for about three months and have never had
> down time. I think they us HPCH or some other bit of alphabet soup, but it's
> not PPOE. It supports our entire office with five computers. We only had
> tweak Windows' network settings to make it work.
> Just a positive note amid all the negative ones.
> John
> 
> Computers to Help People, Inc.
> http://www.chpi.org
> 825 East Johnson; Madison, WI 53703
> 
> 
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: "Janina Sajka" <janina@afb.net>
> To: <blinux-list@redhat.com>
> Sent: Friday, September 07, 2001 09:29
> Subject: Re: Ameritech.net
> 
> 
> > I was a Verizon DSL customer when the company was still called Bell
> > Atlantic and when consumer DSL service was still very new beginning in
> > February 1999. In those days, DSL customers were assigned static IPs. My
> > personal experience was that the service was great when it worked, which
> > wasn't quite enough of the time. I had long periods of down time--about
> > two weeks every three months or so. Calling tech support was a nightmare.
> > First, I would sit on hold listening to the same clip of Vivaldi for tens
> > of minutes. A half-hour wait was common, and the Vivaldi never
> > changed--always the same snipit from the first movement of Spring. Once I
> > got first level tier support my problems only got worse. Clearly, it was
> > my fault because I wasn't in Windows. Clearly, when I rebooted into
> > Windows, it was the screen reader. Once I pushed up to second, and even
> > third tier support, it was, of course, never my fault. At least twice they
> > moved me to ppoe without even telling me they were doing it. Mostly, they
> > just couldn't explain it--system upgrades at the CO, please call back if
> > the problem persists.
> >
> > I will not be a Telco DSL customer again, mostly because of their terrible
> > track record with me, but also because they've moved away from DSL
> > technology I care to buy. They have indeed found ways to provision DSL in
> > ways I don't fully understand--and don't care to. It's more than dynamic
> > IPs. I was surprised recently when a friend was installing Verizon DSL on
> > his Windows computer--surprised to learn that the install added an icon to
> > his Dial Up Networking program group.
> >
> > In essence, I suspect the telco's judge ip space and general network
> > resources insuficient to support the millions of customers they want to
> > sell. They want the customers money, but expect they will not use
> > persistent connections any more than they use dial up connections. My
> > friends DUN based DSL would disconnect on inactivity. Voice phone service
> > network capacity is based, as I understand it, on the expectation that the
> > average phone call will last four minutes. I'm sure they also have a
> > number of calls per month in mind as an average. Of course, they have to
> > make those kinds of predictions in order to build out adequate
> > infrastructure. But, I have no desire to be part of a broadband service
> > that expects casual and occasional web surfing. So, no more telco DSL for
> > me.
> >
> > My advice is to seek a quality provider. My answer, for myself, was
> > speakeasy.net for two crowning reasons:
> >
> > 1.) They actively support linux. In fact, I believe their servers run
> > Redhat;
> > 2.) They actively have no problem with home networks;
> >
> > Most providers have problems over linux even if their technology doesn't,
> > and have fine print that prohibits multiple machines accessing the
> > service. So, I choose to go with the provider that supports the OS and
> > features I want and support.
> >
> >
> >  On Thu, 6 Sep
> > 2001, Karl Dahlke wrote:
> >
> > > For what it's worth, and it isn't worth much,
> > > I used Ameritech dial-up service for almost a year,
> > > and was very happy with it.
> > > I left only because I wanted a cable modem.
> > >
> > > Of course I was happy because everything worked for me straight away,
> > > and I didn't have to ask their technical department for help.
> > >
> > > I'm a bit confused by this whole thread.
> > > I thought dsl was a static always on connection.
> > > Why ppp?
> > > Why pppd?
> > > Why ppp0?
> > > Don't they give you a box that looks like a cable modem,
> > > with a nic interface,
> > > and don't you just plug into that, like an ethernet?
> > > Don't you just set up for an ethernet connection and go?
> > > I guess I don't know much about dsl,
> > > so I'll stop talking now,
> > > before I do more harm than good.
> > >
> > > Karl
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > > _______________________________________________
> > > Blinux-list mailing list
> > > Blinux-list@redhat.com
> > > https://listman.redhat.com/mailman/listinfo/blinux-list
> > >
> >
> > --
> >
> > Janina Sajka, Director
> > Technology Research and Development
> > Governmental Relations Group
> > American Foundation for the Blind (AFB)
> >
> > Email: janina@afb.net Phone: (202) 408-8175
> >
> > Chair, Accessibility SIG
> > Open Electronic Book Forum (OEBF)
> > http://www.openebook.org
> >
> > Will electronic books surpass print books? Read our white paper,
> > Surpassing Gutenberg, at http://www.afb.org/ebook.asp
> >
> > Download a free sample Digital Talking Book edition of Martin Luther
> > King Jr's inspiring "I Have A Dream" speech at
> > http://www.afb.org/mlkweb.asp
> >
> > Learn how to make accessible software at
> > http://www.afb.org/accessapp.asp
> >
> >
> >
> > _______________________________________________
> > Blinux-list mailing list
> > Blinux-list@redhat.com
> > https://listman.redhat.com/mailman/listinfo/blinux-list
> >
> 
> 
> 
> 
> _______________________________________________
> Blinux-list mailing list
> Blinux-list@redhat.com
> https://listman.redhat.com/mailman/listinfo/blinux-list
> 

-- 
	
				Janina Sajka, Director
				Technology Research and Development
				Governmental Relations Group
				American Foundation for the Blind (AFB)

Email: janina@afb.net		Phone: (202) 408-8175

Chair, Accessibility SIG
Open Electronic Book Forum (OEBF)
http://www.openebook.org

Will electronic books surpass print books? Read our white paper,
Surpassing Gutenberg, at http://www.afb.org/ebook.asp

Download a free sample Digital Talking Book edition of Martin Luther
King Jr's inspiring "I Have A Dream" speech at
http://www.afb.org/mlkweb.asp

Learn how to make accessible software at
http://www.afb.org/accessapp.asp

Re: Ameritech.net

[S. Massy]

On Fri, 07 Sep 2001, Janina Sajka <janina@afb.net> wrote:

> I was a Verizon DSL customer when the company was still called Bell 
> Atlantic and when consumer DSL service was still very new beginning in 

Oh yes, oh yes... I'm not a verizon user myself but a person close to
me is, and it is a total nightmare. Their dial-up service is barely
decent and their DSL service is anything but decent. I hate to smash a
company like that, even though it's a tremendously big one, but just
don't deal with them if you can help it, well, at least not in
anything that concerns computers.

By the way, this is a rather common problem since cheap internet access
has come around. Companies can make a lot of profit with relatively
small investments; of course their customer pool grows very quickly,
often more quickly than they expand, and they, the companies, often
prefer to have greater profits than to invest back in their systems as
they should. The result is a service whose resources are always
strained to the very limit and then things can easily go amiss.  So
when you consider a service, such as DSL, consider rather the company
with which you will deal than the technology itself. Computers
still require people to make them work, and if they are managed by
incompetent people or people whose sole interest is profit they will
grow faulty.

Also, the open non-support of linux seems to be a very common practice
among ISPs. In my ISP's case it's even worse, I know for a fact that
they use linux, at least on their web server, but they won't support
it: funny way to pay back the community, don't you think?

Just my two pennies.

> February 1999. In those days, DSL customers were assigned static IPs. My 
> personal experience was that the service was great when it worked, which 
> wasn't quite enough of the time. I had long periods of down time--about 
> two weeks every three months or so. Calling tech support was a nightmare. 
> First, I would sit on hold listening to the same clip of Vivaldi for tens 
> of minutes. A half-hour wait was common, and the Vivaldi never 
> changed--always the same snipit from the first movement of Spring. Once I 
> got first level tier support my problems only got worse. Clearly, it was 
> my fault because I wasn't in Windows. Clearly, when I rebooted into 
> Windows, it was the screen reader. Once I pushed up to second, and even 
> third tier support, it was, of course, never my fault. At least twice they 
> moved me to ppoe without even telling me they were doing it. Mostly, they 
> just couldn't explain it--system upgrades at the CO, please call back if 
> the problem persists.
> 
> I will not be a Telco DSL customer again, mostly because of their terrible 
> track record with me, but also because they've moved away from DSL 
> technology I care to buy. They have indeed found ways to provision DSL in 
> ways I don't fully understand--and don't care to. It's more than dynamic 
> IPs. I was surprised recently when a friend was installing Verizon DSL on 
> his Windows computer--surprised to learn that the install added an icon to 
> his Dial Up Networking program group.
> 
> In essence, I suspect the telco's judge ip space and general network 
> resources insuficient to support the millions of customers they want to 
> sell. They want the customers money, but expect they will not use 
> persistent connections any more than they use dial up connections. My 
> friends DUN based DSL would disconnect on inactivity. Voice phone service 
> network capacity is based, as I understand it, on the expectation that the 
> average phone call will last four minutes. I'm sure they also have a 
> number of calls per month in mind as an average. Of course, they have to 
> make those kinds of predictions in order to build out adequate 
> infrastructure. But, I have no desire to be part of a broadband service 
> that expects casual and occasional web surfing. So, no more telco DSL for 
> me.
> 
> My advice is to seek a quality provider. My answer, for myself, was 
> speakeasy.net for two crowning reasons:
> 
> 1.)	They actively support linux. In fact, I believe their servers run 
> Redhat;
> 2.)	They actively have no problem with home networks;
> 
> Most providers have problems over linux even if their technology doesn't,
> and have fine print that prohibits multiple machines accessing the
> service. So, I choose to go with the provider that supports the OS and
> features I want and support.
> 
> 
>  On Thu, 6 Sep 
> 2001, Karl Dahlke wrote:
> 
> > For what it's worth, and it isn't worth much,
> > I used Ameritech dial-up service for almost a year,
> > and was very happy with it.
> > I left only because I wanted a cable modem.
> > 
> > Of course I was happy because everything worked for me straight away,
> > and I didn't have to ask their technical department for help.
> > 
> > I'm a bit confused by this whole thread.
> > I thought dsl was a static always on connection.
> > Why ppp?
> > Why pppd?
> > Why ppp0?
> > Don't they give you a box that looks like a cable modem,
> > with a nic interface,
> > and don't you just plug into that, like an ethernet?
> > Don't you just set up for an ethernet connection and go?
> > I guess I don't know much about dsl,
> > so I'll stop talking now,
> > before I do more harm than good.
> > 
> > Karl
> > 
> > 
> > 
> > _______________________________________________
> > Blinux-list mailing list
> > Blinux-list@redhat.com
> > https://listman.redhat.com/mailman/listinfo/blinux-list
> > 
> 
> -- 
> 	
> 				Janina Sajka, Director
> 				Technology Research and Development
> 				Governmental Relations Group
> 				American Foundation for the Blind (AFB)
> 
> Email: janina@afb.net		Phone: (202) 408-8175
> 
> Chair, Accessibility SIG
> Open Electronic Book Forum (OEBF)
> http://www.openebook.org
> 
> Will electronic books surpass print books? Read our white paper,
> Surpassing Gutenberg, at http://www.afb.org/ebook.asp
> 
> Download a free sample Digital Talking Book edition of Martin Luther
> King Jr's inspiring "I Have A Dream" speech at
> http://www.afb.org/mlkweb.asp
> 
> Learn how to make accessible software at
> http://www.afb.org/accessapp.asp
> 
> 
> 
> _______________________________________________
> Blinux-list mailing list
> Blinux-list@redhat.com
> https://listman.redhat.com/mailman/listinfo/blinux-list

Re: The growing accessibility gap: was Ameritech.net

[Cheryl Homiak]

Gppd observations!  I will say for Ameritech that they were very helpful
this morning explaining what buttons went with what functions on my
cordless phone--a whole different department of course.  I sometimes am
concerned that we as blind people are losing the acces battle.  In
computers there are the Java and shockwave and flash issues, and whatever
else is around the corner.  In communications it's cordless phones and
cell phones that may even have some talking functionality, buut you have
to scroll through a silent menu to access the feature.  In tv, it's menus
ffor the tv and complex menus for the digital cable boxes.  Not at all
meaning to be negative, but I wonder if we are ever going to find
successful ways to bridge these gaps in an ongoing manner.  You can't
blame sighted people for designing equipment that caters to their dominant
physiical sense, but it sure makes it harder and harder for us to keep up.
A long way from where this topic started, but do any of the rest of you
have concerns about these things?  Is anybody finding positive ways of
dealing with them, especially if you don't have a sighted person around a
lot of the time?

Cheryl

Re: The growing accessibility gap: was Ameritech.net

[Jude DaShiell]

The three companies primarily responsible for inaccessibility are sun
microsystems for having invented java in the first place.  Second netscape
for having innovated html and java.  Third Microsoft for having innovated
everything else.

Jude <jdashiel@shellworld.net>

Re: The growing accessibility gap: was Ameritech.net

[Peter Toneby]

On Fri, Sep 07, 2001 at 05:36:26PM -0400, Jude DaShiell wrote:
> The three companies primarily responsible for inaccessibility are sun
> microsystems for having invented java in the first place.  Second netscape
> for having innovated html and java.  Third Microsoft for having innovated
> everything else.

*beeep*
Now this is pretty much plain wrong!!!!
Java, in and on itself, is not inaccessible, it's stupid programmers
that write stupid java-applets,. That should never have been possible.
HTML is not netscapes fault, it w3c's, and netscape hasn't touched Java
very much, IE and Netscape had java-support at the same time. And
Microsoft haven't innovated shit. they have moslty bought their
"innovations" and Windows is alot more accesible than linux when it
comes to apps, In Linux you can't just start jaws and then pretty much
any other app without problems, try and do that on linux with X (say to
do something thee are no fileformat->text-app, You will fail miserably,
but luckily this is seldom the case for most of you. And you can happily
use Linux in console instead of X.

oh, well time to stop rantin and start sleeping...

/Peter
-- 
Alpha Test Version:  Too buggy to be released to the paying public. 
Beta Test Version:  Still too buggy to be released. 
Release Version:  Alternate pronunciation of "Beta Test Version". 

Re: The growing accessibility gap: was Ameritech.net

[Jude DaShiell]

When a computer language is written so that it's possible for stupid
programmers to generate garbage with it and call that finished product the
inventors of the language in my book take full responsibility for having
enabled the garbage.  html on its face before netscape and microsoft came
in and added their innovations was lots more accessible just using lynx
than most of the world-wide wait is today.

Jude <jdashiel@shellworld.net>

On Sat, 8 Sep 2001, Peter Toneby wrote:

> On Fri, Sep 07, 2001 at 05:36:26PM -0400, Jude DaShiell wrote:
> > The three companies primarily responsible for inaccessibility are sun
> > microsystems for having invented java in the first place.  Second netscape
> > for having innovated html and java.  Third Microsoft for having innovated
> > everything else.
>
> *beeep*
> Now this is pretty much plain wrong!!!!
> Java, in and on itself, is not inaccessible, it's stupid programmers
> that write stupid java-applets,. That should never have been possible.
> HTML is not netscapes fault, it w3c's, and netscape hasn't touched Java
> very much, IE and Netscape had java-support at the same time. And
> Microsoft haven't innovated shit. they have moslty bought their
> "innovations" and Windows is alot more accesible than linux when it
> comes to apps, In Linux you can't just start jaws and then pretty much
> any other app without problems, try and do that on linux with X (say to
> do something thee are no fileformat->text-app, You will fail miserably,
> but luckily this is seldom the case for most of you. And you can happily
> use Linux in console instead of X.
>
> oh, well time to stop rantin and start sleeping...
>
> /Peter
> --
> Alpha Test Version:  Too buggy to be released to the paying public.
> Beta Test Version:  Still too buggy to be released.
> Release Version:  Alternate pronunciation of "Beta Test Version".
>
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> Blinux-list mailing list
> Blinux-list@redhat.com
> https://listman.redhat.com/mailman/listinfo/blinux-list
>

RE: The growing accessibility gap: was Ameritech.net

[Aman Singer]

Hi.
Jude DaShiell said
"When a computer language is written so that it's possible for stupid
programmers to generate garbage with it and call that finished product the
inventors of the language in my book take full responsibility for having
enabled the garbage."

Following that logic, basic, c and c++, FORTRAN, as well as any and all
languages used in a GUI environment, and most used in a text environment
such as dos, are garbage and their manufacturers are responsible for
inaccessibility. Obviously, this is wild. When Mr. Smith makes a keyboard,
is he responsible for Mr. Davidson's lack of spelling ability?
He also said
"html on its face before Netscape and Microsoft came
in and added their innovations was lots more accessible just using lynx
than most of the world-wide wait is today."

Note that html is not, by itself, inaccessible. It's lazy people, both blind
users and sighted designers who make it so. I'm a trainer for blind users of
access tech, and I've stopped counting the number of times I've heard people
say that a site isn't accessible when it's they who don't know how to use
it.
Aman



Reading maketh a full man, conference a ready man, and writing an exact man.
           Francis Bacon

-----Original Message-----
From: blinux-list-admin@redhat.com
[mailto:blinux-list-admin@redhat.com]On Behalf Of Jude DaShiell
Sent: Friday, September 07, 2001 9:42 PM
To: blinux-list@redhat.com
Subject: Re: The growing accessibility gap: was Ameritech.net


When a computer language is written so that it's possible for stupid
programmers to generate garbage with it and call that finished product the
inventors of the language in my book take full responsibility for having
enabled the garbage.  html on its face before netscape and microsoft came
in and added their innovations was lots more accessible just using lynx
than most of the world-wide wait is today.

Jude <jdashiel@shellworld.net>

On Sat, 8 Sep 2001, Peter Toneby wrote:

> On Fri, Sep 07, 2001 at 05:36:26PM -0400, Jude DaShiell wrote:
> > The three companies primarily responsible for inaccessibility are sun
> > microsystems for having invented java in the first place.  Second
netscape
> > for having innovated html and java.  Third Microsoft for having
innovated
> > everything else.
>
> *beeep*
> Now this is pretty much plain wrong!!!!
> Java, in and on itself, is not inaccessible, it's stupid programmers
> that write stupid java-applets,. That should never have been possible.
> HTML is not netscapes fault, it w3c's, and netscape hasn't touched Java
> very much, IE and Netscape had java-support at the same time. And
> Microsoft haven't innovated shit. they have moslty bought their
> "innovations" and Windows is alot more accesible than linux when it
> comes to apps, In Linux you can't just start jaws and then pretty much
> any other app without problems, try and do that on linux with X (say to
> do something thee are no fileformat->text-app, You will fail miserably,
> but luckily this is seldom the case for most of you. And you can happily
> use Linux in console instead of X.
>
> oh, well time to stop rantin and start sleeping...
>
> /Peter
> --
> Alpha Test Version:  Too buggy to be released to the paying public.
> Beta Test Version:  Still too buggy to be released.
> Release Version:  Alternate pronunciation of "Beta Test Version".
>
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> Blinux-list mailing list
> Blinux-list@redhat.com
> https://listman.redhat.com/mailman/listinfo/blinux-list
>



_______________________________________________
Blinux-list mailing list
Blinux-list@redhat.com
https://listman.redhat.com/mailman/listinfo/blinux-list

RE: The growing accessibility gap: was Ameritech.net

[Jude DaShiell]

There are secured sites at work I have access to which because of problems
I ran into with them and because sighted people checked them out with
validators have been declared inaccessible.  One of those two sites I
figured a workaround for another one is so broken it's probably going to
be scrapped.  Neither was written by my employer but my employer bought
both of them from private contractors.  Now, as for that site I figured a
workaround on one of the more competent computer users at my place of
employment who is sighted had so much trouble with that site it took him 2
days to get his work done on it for the first time.  For me it only took a
week but I got it done.

Jude <jdashiel@shellworld.net>

RE: The growing accessibility gap: was Ameritech.net

[Aman Singer]

Hi.
Small point. That two sites are inaccessible and that the sighted as well as
the blind have had trouble with them proves nothing about the language in
which they were written. I can't really think of a language that absolutely
prevents someone from making a disaster of a project, just as I can't think
of a car that prevents someone from crashing it due to inattention or
inability to drive.
Aman


Reading maketh a full man, conference a ready man, and writing an exact man.
           Francis Bacon

-----Original Message-----
From: blinux-list-admin@redhat.com
[mailto:blinux-list-admin@redhat.com]On Behalf Of Jude DaShiell
Sent: Friday, September 07, 2001 10:56 PM
To: blinux-list@redhat.com
Subject: RE: The growing accessibility gap: was Ameritech.net


There are secured sites at work I have access to which because of problems
I ran into with them and because sighted people checked them out with
validators have been declared inaccessible.  One of those two sites I
figured a workaround for another one is so broken it's probably going to
be scrapped.  Neither was written by my employer but my employer bought
both of them from private contractors.  Now, as for that site I figured a
workaround on one of the more competent computer users at my place of
employment who is sighted had so much trouble with that site it took him 2
days to get his work done on it for the first time.  For me it only took a
week but I got it done.

Jude <jdashiel@shellworld.net>




_______________________________________________
Blinux-list mailing list
Blinux-list@redhat.com
https://listman.redhat.com/mailman/listinfo/blinux-list

Re: The growing accessibility gap: was Ameritech.net

[Andor Demarteau]

On Fri, 7 Sep 2001, Jude DaShiell wrote:

 > When a computer language is written so that it's possible for stupid
 > programmers to generate garbage with it and call that finished product the
 > inventors of the language in my book take full responsibility for having
 > enabled the garbage.  html on its face before netscape and microsoft came
 > in and added their innovations was lots more accessible just using lynx
 > than most of the world-wide wait is today.
true in that respect that
a. blaming people to forget you as blind person in there desing-issues is
rightout arrogant
b. c and c++ can be graphical as well, yet I don't here discussions about
that


 > Jude <jdashiel@shellworld.net>
 > 
 > On Sat, 8 Sep 2001, Peter Toneby wrote:
 > 
 > > On Fri, Sep 07, 2001 at 05:36:26PM -0400, Jude DaShiell wrote:
 > > > The three companies primarily responsible for inaccessibility are sun
 > > > microsystems for having invented java in the first place.  Second netscape
 > > > for having innovated html and java.  Third Microsoft for having innovated
 > > > everything else.
 > >
 > > *beeep*
 > > Now this is pretty much plain wrong!!!!
 > > Java, in and on itself, is not inaccessible, it's stupid programmers
 > > that write stupid java-applets,. That should never have been possible.
 > > HTML is not netscapes fault, it w3c's, and netscape hasn't touched Java
 > > very much, IE and Netscape had java-support at the same time. And
 > > Microsoft haven't innovated shit. they have moslty bought their
 > > "innovations" and Windows is alot more accesible than linux when it
 > > comes to apps, In Linux you can't just start jaws and then pretty much
 > > any other app without problems, try and do that on linux with X (say to
 > > do something thee are no fileformat->text-app, You will fail miserably,
 > > but luckily this is seldom the case for most of you. And you can happily
 > > use Linux in console instead of X.
 > >
 > > oh, well time to stop rantin and start sleeping...
 > >
 > > /Peter
 > > --
 > > Alpha Test Version:  Too buggy to be released to the paying public.
 > > Beta Test Version:  Still too buggy to be released.
 > > Release Version:  Alternate pronunciation of "Beta Test Version".
 > >
 > >
 > >
 > > _______________________________________________
 > > Blinux-list mailing list
 > > Blinux-list@redhat.com
 > > https://listman.redhat.com/mailman/listinfo/blinux-list
 > >
 > 
 > 
 > 
 > _______________________________________________
 > Blinux-list mailing list
 > Blinux-list@redhat.com
 > https://listman.redhat.com/mailman/listinfo/blinux-list
 > 

slainte mhaith (good health), slainte (cheers)
Uisce Beatha (water of live/health)
-----------
Andor Demarteau                 E-mail: ademarte@students.cs.uu.nl
student computer science        www: http://www.students.cs.uu.nl/~ademarte/
Utrecht University              irc: see webpage for details
-----------
Believe in yourself, know what you want, and make it happen!

Re: The growing accessibility gap: was Ameritech.net

[Andor Demarteau]

On Fri, 7 Sep 2001, Jude DaShiell wrote:

 > The three companies primarily responsible for inaccessibility are sun
 > microsystems for having invented java in the first place.  Second netscape
 > for having innovated html and java.  Third Microsoft for having innovated
 > everything else.
Sorry, but I have to crrect one thing here.
Microsoft (among other things) doesn't and if you ask me can't innovate at
all.
The hole idea of graphical ui's was taken right from Macintosh who had that
kind of techonoly about 10 years before windows ever was created.
Blame it on ms though to get it mass-produced and distributed.

 > Jude <jdashiel@shellworld.net>
 > 
 > 
 > 
 > 
 > _______________________________________________
 > Blinux-list mailing list
 > Blinux-list@redhat.com
 > https://listman.redhat.com/mailman/listinfo/blinux-list
 > 

slainte mhaith (good health), slainte (cheers)
Uisce Beatha (water of live/health)
-----------
Andor Demarteau                 E-mail: ademarte@students.cs.uu.nl
student computer science        www: http://www.students.cs.uu.nl/~ademarte/
Utrecht University              irc: see webpage for details
-----------
Believe in yourself, know what you want, and make it happen!

Re: The growing accessibility gap: was Ameritech.net

[Mike Gorse]

On Sat, 8 Sep 2001, Andor Demarteau wrote:

> The hole idea of graphical ui's was taken right from Macintosh who had that
> kind of techonoly about 10 years before windows ever was created.

An Apple, in turn, got their technology from Xerox for the most part.

Re: The growing accessibility gap: was Ameritech.net

[Andor Demarteau]

On Sat, 8 Sep 2001, Mike Gorse wrote:

 > On Sat, 8 Sep 2001, Andor Demarteau wrote:
 > 
 > > The hole idea of graphical ui's was taken right from Macintosh who had that
 > > kind of techonoly about 10 years before windows ever was created.
 > 
 > An Apple, in turn, got their technology from Xerox for the most part.
Well yes, I forgot that for a second.

 > 
 > 
 > 
 > 
 > _______________________________________________
 > Blinux-list mailing list
 > Blinux-list@redhat.com
 > https://listman.redhat.com/mailman/listinfo/blinux-list
 > 

slainte mhaith (good health), slainte (cheers)
Uisce Beatha (water of live/health)
-----------
Andor Demarteau                 E-mail: ademarte@students.cs.uu.nl
student computer science        www: http://www.students.cs.uu.nl/~ademarte/
Utrecht University              irc: see webpage for details
-----------
Believe in yourself, know what you want, and make it happen!

Re: The growing accessibility gap: was Ameritech.net

[simon]

I agree,

apple still have not  been beaten by MS in the area of functioning
operating system,there biggest problem is that mac pcs  are to expencive 
Microsofts problem is that there software has more bugs than an insect
collecter 

I would be using linex more often if they had a wider range of software
available 

t 07:51 PM 9/8/01 +0200, you wrote:
>On Fri, 7 Sep 2001, Jude DaShiell wrote:
>
> > The three companies primarily responsible for inaccessibility are sun
> > microsystems for having invented java in the first place.  Second netscape
> > for having innovated html and java.  Third Microsoft for having innovated
> > everything else.
>Sorry, but I have to crrect one thing here.
>Microsoft (among other things) doesn't and if you ask me can't innovate at
>all.
>The hole idea of graphical ui's was taken right from Macintosh who had that
>kind of techonoly about 10 years before windows ever was created.
>Blame it on ms though to get it mass-produced and distributed.
>
> > Jude <jdashiel@shellworld.net>
> > 
> > 
> > 
> > 
> > _______________________________________________
> > Blinux-list mailing list
> > Blinux-list@redhat.com
> > https://listman.redhat.com/mailman/listinfo/blinux-list
> > 
>
>slainte mhaith (good health), slainte (cheers)
>Uisce Beatha (water of live/health)
>-----------
>Andor Demarteau                 E-mail: ademarte@students.cs.uu.nl
>student computer science        www: http://www.students.cs.uu.nl/~ademarte/
>Utrecht University              irc: see webpage for details
>-----------
>Believe in yourself, know what you want, and make it happen!
>
>
>
>_______________________________________________
>Blinux-list mailing list
>Blinux-list@redhat.com
>https://listman.redhat.com/mailman/listinfo/blinux-list
>

Re: The growing accessibility gap: was Ameritech.net

[Andor Demarteau]

On Sun, 9 Sep 2001, simon wrote:

 > I agree,
 > 
 > apple still have not  been beaten by MS in the area of functioning
 > operating system,there biggest problem is that mac pcs  are to expencive 
 > Microsofts problem is that there software has more bugs than an insect
 > collecter 
Imacs are not that expansive anymore.
Problem, afaik there are no braille/speech programs for the MAC, if there
are I'd really want to know about it.

 > I would be using linex more often if they had a wider range of software
 > available 
There's tons of software for linux, but maybe not what you neex exactly.
Do I have to send you the debian-package listings?

 > t 07:51 PM 9/8/01 +0200, you wrote:
 > >On Fri, 7 Sep 2001, Jude DaShiell wrote:
 > >
 > > > The three companies primarily responsible for inaccessibility are sun
 > > > microsystems for having invented java in the first place.  Second netscape
 > > > for having innovated html and java.  Third Microsoft for having innovated
 > > > everything else.
 > >Sorry, but I have to crrect one thing here.
 > >Microsoft (among other things) doesn't and if you ask me can't innovate at
 > >all.
 > >The hole idea of graphical ui's was taken right from Macintosh who had that
 > >kind of techonoly about 10 years before windows ever was created.
 > >Blame it on ms though to get it mass-produced and distributed.
 > >
 > > > Jude <jdashiel@shellworld.net>
 > > > 
 > > > 
 > > > 
 > > > 
 > > > _______________________________________________
 > > > Blinux-list mailing list
 > > > Blinux-list@redhat.com
 > > > https://listman.redhat.com/mailman/listinfo/blinux-list
 > > > 
 > >
 > >slainte mhaith (good health), slainte (cheers)
 > >Uisce Beatha (water of live/health)
 > >-----------
 > >Andor Demarteau                 E-mail: ademarte@students.cs.uu.nl
 > >student computer science        www: http://www.students.cs.uu.nl/~ademarte/
 > >Utrecht University              irc: see webpage for details
 > >-----------
 > >Believe in yourself, know what you want, and make it happen!
 > >
 > >
 > >
 > >_______________________________________________
 > >Blinux-list mailing list
 > >Blinux-list@redhat.com
 > >https://listman.redhat.com/mailman/listinfo/blinux-list
 > >
 > 
 > 
 > 
 > _______________________________________________
 > Blinux-list mailing list
 > Blinux-list@redhat.com
 > https://listman.redhat.com/mailman/listinfo/blinux-list
 > 

slainte mhaith (good health), slainte (cheers)
Uisce Beatha (water of live/health)
-----------
Andor Demarteau                 E-mail: ademarte@students.cs.uu.nl
student computer science        www: http://www.students.cs.uu.nl/~ademarte/
Utrecht University              irc: see webpage for details
-----------
Believe in yourself, know what you want, and make it happen!

Re: The growing accessibility gap: was Ameritech.net

[Saqib Shaikh]

Hi,

You were asking if there was a screen reader for the Mac.  There is one: Out
Spoken.  Versions exist both for Mac and Win.  Out Spoken has excellent
braille support and also some braille.  Visit the Alva web site.  The US
site is aagi.com, and I think the main company in Netherlands is alva.nl or
similar.

Let me know if you start using the Mac and find it usable.  Finally I'd also
like to point out that OS/2 in combination with ScreenReader/2 both from IBM
makes an excellent GUII environment for the blind.

Saqib Shaikh

Re: The growing accessibility gap: was Ameritech.net

[blindguy13]

Quiet your bitching. The probleum is linux. I use it a little and use
windows a lot things with it are a lot more accessible. If you love
editing your configeration files so mutch then stay with linux and create
your own access bridge sun didn't have to put that out for windows. Html
is accessible with internet explorer through jaws, window eyes or what
ever else you want to use. As for microsoft I know a tech guy who will
bend over backwords to help out with accessibility and in there new
visual net relies msaa will be built in to a lot larger extent. Don't
bitch at other compinies when if you carred so mutch you could write the
damn program to read java your self try working with the accessibility
people at sun althoe with an attitude like yours trying to blame
everything on big compinies they won't want to work with you it is the
small programs I have found are the bigger probleums not the larger ones
thats why I am using windows to write this message because it is
accessible.
________________________________________________________________
GET INTERNET ACCESS FROM JUNO!
Juno offers FREE or PREMIUM Internet access for less!
Join Juno today!  For your FREE software, visit:
http://dl.www.juno.com/get/tagj.

Re: The growing accessibility gap: was Ameritech.net

[Joseph Carter]

[-- Attachment #1: Type: text/plain, Size: 565 bytes --]

On Fri, Sep 07, 2001 at 06:14:39PM -0400, blindguy13@juno.com wrote:
> Quiet your bitching. The probleum is linux. I use it a little and use
[..]

With an attitude like that, what the hell are you doing in a forum for
Linux accessability?  Troll elsewhere.

-- 
Joseph Carter <knghtbrd@debian.org>                 Free software developer

<hop> when you start making only stupid mistakes that are obvious, thats
      when you start getting competent
<hop> because you don't make fundamental misunderstanding mistakes
<hop> and thats a *good* sign.


[-- Attachment #2: Type: application/pgp-signature, Size: 273 bytes --]

Re: The growing accessibility gap: was Ameritech.net

[Jude DaShiell]

The command line interface does not cause me any problems, it's that other
junk that makes life hell.  So far as bitching is concerned, you haven't
yet heard me bitch.  All I did was to state some widely known and accepted
axioms which are axiomatic since they're so easily proven.  Were you
correct in your statements, the Council Of Agencies Serving the blind
would not have contemplated taking Microsoft to court in January of 1995.
As it was, certain agreements were reached that seemingly alleviated the
necessity for litigation.

Jude <jdashiel@shellworld.net>

Re: The growing accessibility gap: was Ameritech.net

[Jared]

If the command line is so grate write me or help write me a mass market
application that cells to millions of coppies. You can't because you can't
use the g u i interface in linux like you can in windows. So you will have
to write in general smaller market programs if you wish to do that for a
job. I on the other hand because I'm not thick headed can write G U I
applications with vb or any number of other tools. As for your comment to
Mr. Toneby what about the people who tryed to make linux a more user
friendly opperaiting system generated a G U I so they generated code that
turned to inaccessible garbige for you so they are just as mutch at fault as
sun. A large part of microsoft is that the windows 3.1 was not around for a
long enough time for standerds to devolipe. They may have been responcible
for the inaccessibility in the past but now they are making an effort to
change that tell me is there anyone trying in the linux community cort or no
cort trying to make a screen reader for the G U I part of linux? If so
please send me email so I can try and help but don't complain about
microsoft when people arn't working to help your beloved oh so accessible
linux.
----- Original Message -----
From: "Jude DaShiell" <jdashiel@shellworld.net>
To: <blinux-list@redhat.com>
Sent: Friday, September 07, 2001 9:35 PM
Subject: Re: The growing accessibility gap: was Ameritech.net


> The command line interface does not cause me any problems, it's that other
> junk that makes life hell.  So far as bitching is concerned, you haven't
> yet heard me bitch.  All I did was to state some widely known and accepted
> axioms which are axiomatic since they're so easily proven.  Were you
> correct in your statements, the Council Of Agencies Serving the blind
> would not have contemplated taking Microsoft to court in January of 1995.
> As it was, certain agreements were reached that seemingly alleviated the
> necessity for litigation.
>
> Jude <jdashiel@shellworld.net>
>
>
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> Blinux-list mailing list
> Blinux-list@redhat.com
> https://listman.redhat.com/mailman/listinfo/blinux-list


_________________________________________________________
Do You Yahoo!?
Get your free @yahoo.com address at http://mail.yahoo.com

Re: The growing accessibility gap: was Ameritech.net

[Jude DaShiell]

Who told you I was about to do anything job-related with Linux?  Yes,
winhose is a work requirement for me.  Yes I do use winhose.  But just
because those two statements are true doesn't mean I have to like the
virus!

Jude <jdashiel@shellworld.net>

On Fri, 7 Sep 2001, Jared wrote:

> If the command line is so grate write me or help write me a mass market
> application that cells to millions of coppies. You can't because you can't
> use the g u i interface in linux like you can in windows. So you will have
> to write in general smaller market programs if you wish to do that for a
> job. I on the other hand because I'm not thick headed can write G U I
> applications with vb or any number of other tools. As for your comment to
> Mr. Toneby what about the people who tryed to make linux a more user
> friendly opperaiting system generated a G U I so they generated code that
> turned to inaccessible garbige for you so they are just as mutch at fault as
> sun. A large part of microsoft is that the windows 3.1 was not around for a
> long enough time for standerds to devolipe. They may have been responcible
> for the inaccessibility in the past but now they are making an effort to
> change that tell me is there anyone trying in the linux community cort or no
> cort trying to make a screen reader for the G U I part of linux? If so
> please send me email so I can try and help but don't complain about
> microsoft when people arn't working to help your beloved oh so accessible
> linux.
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: "Jude DaShiell" <jdashiel@shellworld.net>
> To: <blinux-list@redhat.com>
> Sent: Friday, September 07, 2001 9:35 PM
> Subject: Re: The growing accessibility gap: was Ameritech.net
>
>
> > The command line interface does not cause me any problems, it's that other
> > junk that makes life hell.  So far as bitching is concerned, you haven't
> > yet heard me bitch.  All I did was to state some widely known and accepted
> > axioms which are axiomatic since they're so easily proven.  Were you
> > correct in your statements, the Council Of Agencies Serving the blind
> > would not have contemplated taking Microsoft to court in January of 1995.
> > As it was, certain agreements were reached that seemingly alleviated the
> > necessity for litigation.
> >
> > Jude <jdashiel@shellworld.net>
> >
> >
> >
> >
> > _______________________________________________
> > Blinux-list mailing list
> > Blinux-list@redhat.com
> > https://listman.redhat.com/mailman/listinfo/blinux-list
>
>
> _________________________________________________________
> Do You Yahoo!?
> Get your free @yahoo.com address at http://mail.yahoo.com
>
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> Blinux-list mailing list
> Blinux-list@redhat.com
> https://listman.redhat.com/mailman/listinfo/blinux-list
>

Re: The growing accessibility gap: was Ameritech.net

[Angelo Sonnesso]

look at the gnome development project.

----- Original Message -----
From: "Jared" <stofflej@yahoo.com>
To: <blinux-list@redhat.com>
Sent: Friday, September 07, 2001 10:04 PM
Subject: Re: The growing accessibility gap: was Ameritech.net


> If the command line is so grate write me or help write me a mass market
> application that cells to millions of coppies. You can't because you can't
> use the g u i interface in linux like you can in windows. So you will have
> to write in general smaller market programs if you wish to do that for a
> job. I on the other hand because I'm not thick headed can write G U I
> applications with vb or any number of other tools. As for your comment to
> Mr. Toneby what about the people who tryed to make linux a more user
> friendly opperaiting system generated a G U I so they generated code that
> turned to inaccessible garbige for you so they are just as mutch at fault
as
> sun. A large part of microsoft is that the windows 3.1 was not around for
a
> long enough time for standerds to devolipe. They may have been responcible
> for the inaccessibility in the past but now they are making an effort to
> change that tell me is there anyone trying in the linux community cort or
no
> cort trying to make a screen reader for the G U I part of linux? If so
> please send me email so I can try and help but don't complain about
> microsoft when people arn't working to help your beloved oh so accessible
> linux.
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: "Jude DaShiell" <jdashiel@shellworld.net>
> To: <blinux-list@redhat.com>
> Sent: Friday, September 07, 2001 9:35 PM
> Subject: Re: The growing accessibility gap: was Ameritech.net
>
>
> > The command line interface does not cause me any problems, it's that
other
> > junk that makes life hell.  So far as bitching is concerned, you haven't
> > yet heard me bitch.  All I did was to state some widely known and
accepted
> > axioms which are axiomatic since they're so easily proven.  Were you
> > correct in your statements, the Council Of Agencies Serving the blind
> > would not have contemplated taking Microsoft to court in January of
1995.
> > As it was, certain agreements were reached that seemingly alleviated the
> > necessity for litigation.
> >
> > Jude <jdashiel@shellworld.net>
> >
> >
> >
> >
> > _______________________________________________
> > Blinux-list mailing list
> > Blinux-list@redhat.com
> > https://listman.redhat.com/mailman/listinfo/blinux-list
>
>
> _________________________________________________________
> Do You Yahoo!?
> Get your free @yahoo.com address at http://mail.yahoo.com
>
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> Blinux-list mailing list
> Blinux-list@redhat.com
> https://listman.redhat.com/mailman/listinfo/blinux-list
>

Re: The growing accessibility gap: was Ameritech.net

[Jared]

Where is it?
----- Original Message -----
From: "Angelo Sonnesso" <asonnesso@coastalnet.com>
To: <blinux-list@redhat.com>
Sent: Friday, September 07, 2001 10:50 PM
Subject: Re: The growing accessibility gap: was Ameritech.net


> look at the gnome development project.
>
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: "Jared" <stofflej@yahoo.com>
> To: <blinux-list@redhat.com>
> Sent: Friday, September 07, 2001 10:04 PM
> Subject: Re: The growing accessibility gap: was Ameritech.net
>
>
> > If the command line is so grate write me or help write me a mass market
> > application that cells to millions of coppies. You can't because you
can't
> > use the g u i interface in linux like you can in windows. So you will
have
> > to write in general smaller market programs if you wish to do that for a
> > job. I on the other hand because I'm not thick headed can write G U I
> > applications with vb or any number of other tools. As for your comment
to
> > Mr. Toneby what about the people who tryed to make linux a more user
> > friendly opperaiting system generated a G U I so they generated code
that
> > turned to inaccessible garbige for you so they are just as mutch at
fault
> as
> > sun. A large part of microsoft is that the windows 3.1 was not around
for
> a
> > long enough time for standerds to devolipe. They may have been
responcible
> > for the inaccessibility in the past but now they are making an effort to
> > change that tell me is there anyone trying in the linux community cort
or
> no
> > cort trying to make a screen reader for the G U I part of linux? If so
> > please send me email so I can try and help but don't complain about
> > microsoft when people arn't working to help your beloved oh so
accessible
> > linux.
> > ----- Original Message -----
> > From: "Jude DaShiell" <jdashiel@shellworld.net>
> > To: <blinux-list@redhat.com>
> > Sent: Friday, September 07, 2001 9:35 PM
> > Subject: Re: The growing accessibility gap: was Ameritech.net
> >
> >
> > > The command line interface does not cause me any problems, it's that
> other
> > > junk that makes life hell.  So far as bitching is concerned, you
haven't
> > > yet heard me bitch.  All I did was to state some widely known and
> accepted
> > > axioms which are axiomatic since they're so easily proven.  Were you
> > > correct in your statements, the Council Of Agencies Serving the blind
> > > would not have contemplated taking Microsoft to court in January of
> 1995.
> > > As it was, certain agreements were reached that seemingly alleviated
the
> > > necessity for litigation.
> > >
> > > Jude <jdashiel@shellworld.net>
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > > _______________________________________________
> > > Blinux-list mailing list
> > > Blinux-list@redhat.com
> > > https://listman.redhat.com/mailman/listinfo/blinux-list
> >
> >
> > _________________________________________________________
> > Do You Yahoo!?
> > Get your free @yahoo.com address at http://mail.yahoo.com
> >
> >
> >
> > _______________________________________________
> > Blinux-list mailing list
> > Blinux-list@redhat.com
> > https://listman.redhat.com/mailman/listinfo/blinux-list
> >
>
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> Blinux-list mailing list
> Blinux-list@redhat.com
> https://listman.redhat.com/mailman/listinfo/blinux-list


_________________________________________________________
Do You Yahoo!?
Get your free @yahoo.com address at http://mail.yahoo.com

Re: The growing accessibility gap: was Ameritech.net

[Rick Hayner]

Hello.  

Since windows is so darned accessable, tell me why I can't install it
and get it to run with my trident video card, and would you also tell
me that when windows crashes, why you never hear any of the error
messages?  All you get is this program performed an illegal operation,
speech dies, and you get no error messages telling you what the devil
the error messages are, what illegal operation the program performed
or anything else.  I have been running linux for over 2 years, and I
have never had it crash on me without knowing why.  I love you people
who belittle the command-line interface.  You take tools like sed,
those tools can modify hundreds of files in the time it would take
windows users to select the files to be modified, if there was such a
powerful tool in windows.  

I took the united states amateur radio callbook, which contains over
712,000 records, copied it to my linux partition because I wanted it
in linux.  I created a table in mysql to hold the fields contained in
the callbook, and using the load data command, I imported that entire
712,000 row database in 28 seconds.  That was on a 200 mhz processor
and a fairly slow hard drive compaired to the new 7200 rpm drives.
Try that in windows, and tell me how many minutes it takes you to
import such a large file.  If windows is so great, why are over half
of all internet servers running under either Unix or Linux?  

As far as I'm concerned, windows is for people who could care less
about how their computers work, and who are willing to pay a
technician $50.00 an hour everytime their system crashes.  I only need
some accounting, and I'll have a degree in computer science.  I went
to linux because I love programming, and I love experimenting with my
computer.  I can write all of the letters I want to write with emacs,
and I can learn latex or even Tex if I want to really get fancy.
Every time microsoft comes out with a new operating system, or
upgrades it, you need to buy all new computers if you want any
performance out of it.  I know 13 programming languages, and I learned
them all under dos or linux, except for ibm 360 assembler and cobol.

Take care.

-- 
Rick Hayner
rhayner@complink.net
Member spebsqsa, Baritone Kalamazoo Mall City Chorus.
Amateur radio station wa8jqv

Re: The growing accessibility gap: was Ameritech.net

[Jude DaShiell]

I really shouldn't do this, it's aiding and abbeting the enemy.  But if
you write me off list I'll send you about a braille page worth of
instructions for installing windows.  If all works correctly you'll be at
the task bar when done.  It's more than Microsoft or national braille
press will do.

Jude <jdashiel@shellworld.net>

On Fri, 7 Sep 2001, Rick Hayner wrote:

>
>
> Hello.
>
> Since windows is so darned accessable, tell me why I can't install it
> and get it to run with my trident video card, and would you also tell
> me that when windows crashes, why you never hear any of the error
> messages?  All you get is this program performed an illegal operation,
> speech dies, and you get no error messages telling you what the devil
> the error messages are, what illegal operation the program performed
> or anything else.  I have been running linux for over 2 years, and I
> have never had it crash on me without knowing why.  I love you people
> who belittle the command-line interface.  You take tools like sed,
> those tools can modify hundreds of files in the time it would take
> windows users to select the files to be modified, if there was such a
> powerful tool in windows.
>
> I took the united states amateur radio callbook, which contains over
> 712,000 records, copied it to my linux partition because I wanted it
> in linux.  I created a table in mysql to hold the fields contained in
> the callbook, and using the load data command, I imported that entire
> 712,000 row database in 28 seconds.  That was on a 200 mhz processor
> and a fairly slow hard drive compaired to the new 7200 rpm drives.
> Try that in windows, and tell me how many minutes it takes you to
> import such a large file.  If windows is so great, why are over half
> of all internet servers running under either Unix or Linux?
>
> As far as I'm concerned, windows is for people who could care less
> about how their computers work, and who are willing to pay a
> technician $50.00 an hour everytime their system crashes.  I only need
> some accounting, and I'll have a degree in computer science.  I went
> to linux because I love programming, and I love experimenting with my
> computer.  I can write all of the letters I want to write with emacs,
> and I can learn latex or even Tex if I want to really get fancy.
> Every time microsoft comes out with a new operating system, or
> upgrades it, you need to buy all new computers if you want any
> performance out of it.  I know 13 programming languages, and I learned
> them all under dos or linux, except for ibm 360 assembler and cobol.
>
> Take care.
>
> --
> Rick Hayner
> rhayner@complink.net
> Member spebsqsa, Baritone Kalamazoo Mall City Chorus.
> Amateur radio station wa8jqv
>
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> Blinux-list mailing list
> Blinux-list@redhat.com
> https://listman.redhat.com/mailman/listinfo/blinux-list
>

Re: The growing accessibility gap: was Ameritech.net

[Rafael Skodlar]

On Fri, Sep 07, 2001 at 10:04:22PM -0400, Jared wrote:
> If the command line is so grate write me or help write me a mass market
> application that cells to millions of coppies. You can't because you can't

You do need to learn basics of economics, technology, and about menthality
of masses.

> use the g u i interface in linux like you can in windows. So you will have

Come on, stop this nonsense! Linux Apps can be and often are much better
designed in GUI or otherwise. The applications at least reside separate
from data which is not the case in most Windoze crap where there is no
serious concept of home.

I support developers on a daily basis and it's amazing to see that they
can come come up with something that works under windows. Fortunately for
me I only need to deal with Linux and Solaris, both stable which I cannot 
say for windoze.

> to write in general smaller market programs if you wish to do that for a
> job. I on the other hand because I'm not thick headed can write G U I
> applications with vb or any number of other tools. As for your comment to

VB is not software development!

> Mr. Toneby what about the people who tryed to make linux a more user
> friendly opperaiting system generated a G U I so they generated code that

They've done a nice job, thank you. Gnome, KDE, etc. with a lot of tools
and apps including nice virtual screens which I have yet to see in
(default) windows.

> turned to inaccessible garbige for you so they are just as mutch at fault as
> sun. A large part of microsoft is that the windows 3.1 was not around for a
> long enough time for standerds to devolipe. They may have been responcible

Windows was never a standard and it never will be outside MS. At least you
can export X windows applications between different platforms which is NOT
the case in windows. Worse, one application in one version of windoze
won't run in another in many cases.

Unix is mature OS, windows is still in diapers and they smell badly.

> for the inaccessibility in the past but now they are making an effort to
> change that tell me is there anyone trying in the linux community cort or no
> cort trying to make a screen reader for the G U I part of linux? If so

Linux is open source and depends on developers free time among other
things. If you want something written for you then come up with some dough
to support Linux community. Perhaps if somebody gets all the equipment
needed to develop such a reader, they'll do it. Small markets get less
attention than large ones, simple economics.

> please send me email so I can try and help but don't complain about
> microsoft when people arn't working to help your beloved oh so accessible
> linux.

More nonsense! Nobody owes you free programs. Be happy to get them so
cheap.

GNU/Linux is just an OS that makes computers usable. It happens to be very
good tool and free on top of that. Don't like it? Go somewhere else.

Rafael

Re: The growing accessibility gap: was Ameritech.net

[Andor Demarteau]

On Fri, 7 Sep 2001, Rafael Skodlar wrote:

 > On Fri, Sep 07, 2001 at 10:04:22PM -0400, Jared wrote:
 > > If the command line is so grate write me or help write me a mass market
 > > application that cells to millions of coppies. You can't because you can't
Linux is not an economic product, no mass-ads for it and certainly no big
company behind it.
Don't try to blame lack of knolidge about handeling linux as inaccesible
Last but not leeast, you don't SELL linux you get it FOR FREE!
Now how is that compared to all commerical bullshit!

One last thing, I'm possitive that if the gnome and kde accebility projects
succeed that will be a lot better then MS and all included will ever
become.

Fine, if you feel better win windbloze, your problem.
Now, let's quit the OS-discussion and ask ourselves what this thread really
is about then bitching each other about here believes/experiences.


 > You do need to learn basics of economics, technology, and about menthality
 > of masses.
 > 
 > > use the g u i interface in linux like you can in windows. So you will have
 > 
 > Come on, stop this nonsense! Linux Apps can be and often are much better
 > designed in GUI or otherwise. The applications at least reside separate
 > from data which is not the case in most Windoze crap where there is no
 > serious concept of home.
 > 
 > I support developers on a daily basis and it's amazing to see that they
 > can come come up with something that works under windows. Fortunately for
 > me I only need to deal with Linux and Solaris, both stable which I cannot 
 > say for windoze.
 > 
 > > to write in general smaller market programs if you wish to do that for a
 > > job. I on the other hand because I'm not thick headed can write G U I
 > > applications with vb or any number of other tools. As for your comment to
 > 
 > VB is not software development!
 > 
 > > Mr. Toneby what about the people who tryed to make linux a more user
 > > friendly opperaiting system generated a G U I so they generated code that
 > 
 > They've done a nice job, thank you. Gnome, KDE, etc. with a lot of tools
 > and apps including nice virtual screens which I have yet to see in
 > (default) windows.
 > 
 > > turned to inaccessible garbige for you so they are just as mutch at fault as
 > > sun. A large part of microsoft is that the windows 3.1 was not around for a
 > > long enough time for standerds to devolipe. They may have been responcible
 > 
 > Windows was never a standard and it never will be outside MS. At least you
 > can export X windows applications between different platforms which is NOT
 > the case in windows. Worse, one application in one version of windoze
 > won't run in another in many cases.
 > 
 > Unix is mature OS, windows is still in diapers and they smell badly.
 > 
 > > for the inaccessibility in the past but now they are making an effort to
 > > change that tell me is there anyone trying in the linux community cort or no
 > > cort trying to make a screen reader for the G U I part of linux? If so
 > 
 > Linux is open source and depends on developers free time among other
 > things. If you want something written for you then come up with some dough
 > to support Linux community. Perhaps if somebody gets all the equipment
 > needed to develop such a reader, they'll do it. Small markets get less
 > attention than large ones, simple economics.
 > 
 > > please send me email so I can try and help but don't complain about
 > > microsoft when people arn't working to help your beloved oh so accessible
 > > linux.
 > 
 > More nonsense! Nobody owes you free programs. Be happy to get them so
 > cheap.
 > 
 > GNU/Linux is just an OS that makes computers usable. It happens to be very
 > good tool and free on top of that. Don't like it? Go somewhere else.
 > 
 > Rafael
 > 
 > 
 > 
 > _______________________________________________
 > Blinux-list mailing list
 > Blinux-list@redhat.com
 > https://listman.redhat.com/mailman/listinfo/blinux-list
 > 

slainte mhaith (good health), slainte (cheers)
Uisce Beatha (water of live/health)
-----------
Andor Demarteau                 E-mail: ademarte@students.cs.uu.nl
student computer science        www: http://www.students.cs.uu.nl/~ademarte/
Utrecht University              irc: see webpage for details
-----------
Believe in yourself, know what you want, and make it happen!

Re: The growing accessibility gap: was Ameritech.net

[Ray Saldana III]

A great exchange of ideas and thoughts. I think we all need to realize
though that the whole reason we get to have these exchanges in this format
is all of the programmers collectively that have contributed to our access
to written communications! I appreciate them all, Linux, Windows, All of
them!
    In the past there was a wall up to us that was a very formidable barrier
and that was Braille. Though Braille was a great thing, it presented a
barrier to those not being able to read printed material, as they could take
notes and write letters, but only to someone that understood Braille! Now
though the computer has bridged the gap by allowing us to communicate in a
forum that is comfortable to the sighted community. Face it we are the ones
that are different, so must adapt, and all of the programmers no matter how
small they contributed, none the less contributed to the betterment of our
lives.
    I myself feel so lucky to be able to access printed word again! I am
just thankful to all who have tried to help! After all is said and done, I
am just thankful to have the opportunity to have an exchange like this at
all!
    Think of this as you navigate the web, you run across inaccessible web
pages, and must struggle to get the information from them. But think of
this, at least you can get the information for yourself! Have you ever been
able to do this from a book or magazine someone left behind? I mean all for
yourself, as you and I both know it is hard to ask someone to read to you,
and if you need it reread to you you could feel their frustration especially
if they were not interested in the subject matter or didn't understand it.
Think about leaving it all behind you! Life is much easier now!
    I think this was a healthy exchange of ideas, and you have great minds.
It is time now however to count our blessings, and remember what it was like
before! I like both systems, and respect the contributions of all that have
worked to make my life easier.
    One also important point was made about the freeware community working
and sharing their knowledge, bless those people! I only wish I had big
enough pockets to help them all, though they still keep working with a
believe in mind, and ingenuity, they are heroes in my book! We are lucky to
live in this time!
    I toast you all as you fight for knowledge and struggle to access, and
work to keep on keeping on, none of you have quit, and that is something to
be very proud of! You as well as I could have said, "I can't see anymore, I
am going to sit here and do nothing from now on." I know you have came
across this, and that is something to be really ashamed of! Keep up the good
work, and though it is a challenge come away with the knowledge that you are
progressing in a situation most can't imagine!
73 RR
AB7JM
http://personal.riverusers.com/~ab7jm_gila
----- Original Message -----
From: "Andor Demarteau" <ademarte@students.cs.uu.nl>
To: <blinux-list@redhat.com>
Sent: Saturday, September 08, 2001 11:15 AM
Subject: Re: The growing accessibility gap: was Ameritech.net


> On Fri, 7 Sep 2001, Rafael Skodlar wrote:
>
>  > On Fri, Sep 07, 2001 at 10:04:22PM -0400, Jared wrote:
>  > > If the command line is so grate write me or help write me a mass
market
>  > > application that cells to millions of coppies. You can't because you
can't
> Linux is not an economic product, no mass-ads for it and certainly no big
> company behind it.
> Don't try to blame lack of knolidge about handeling linux as inaccesible
> Last but not leeast, you don't SELL linux you get it FOR FREE!
> Now how is that compared to all commerical bullshit!
>
> One last thing, I'm possitive that if the gnome and kde accebility
projects
> succeed that will be a lot better then MS and all included will ever
> become.
>
> Fine, if you feel better win windbloze, your problem.
> Now, let's quit the OS-discussion and ask ourselves what this thread
really
> is about then bitching each other about here believes/experiences.
>
>
>  > You do need to learn basics of economics, technology, and about
menthality
>  > of masses.
>  >
>  > > use the g u i interface in linux like you can in windows. So you will
have
>  >
>  > Come on, stop this nonsense! Linux Apps can be and often are much
better
>  > designed in GUI or otherwise. The applications at least reside separate
>  > from data which is not the case in most Windoze crap where there is no
>  > serious concept of home.
>  >
>  > I support developers on a daily basis and it's amazing to see that they
>  > can come come up with something that works under windows. Fortunately
for
>  > me I only need to deal with Linux and Solaris, both stable which I
cannot
>  > say for windoze.
>  >
>  > > to write in general smaller market programs if you wish to do that
for a
>  > > job. I on the other hand because I'm not thick headed can write G U I
>  > > applications with vb or any number of other tools. As for your
comment to
>  >
>  > VB is not software development!
>  >
>  > > Mr. Toneby what about the people who tryed to make linux a more user
>  > > friendly opperaiting system generated a G U I so they generated code
that
>  >
>  > They've done a nice job, thank you. Gnome, KDE, etc. with a lot of
tools
>  > and apps including nice virtual screens which I have yet to see in
>  > (default) windows.
>  >
>  > > turned to inaccessible garbige for you so they are just as mutch at
fault as
>  > > sun. A large part of microsoft is that the windows 3.1 was not around
for a
>  > > long enough time for standerds to devolipe. They may have been
responcible
>  >
>  > Windows was never a standard and it never will be outside MS. At least
you
>  > can export X windows applications between different platforms which is
NOT
>  > the case in windows. Worse, one application in one version of windoze
>  > won't run in another in many cases.
>  >
>  > Unix is mature OS, windows is still in diapers and they smell badly.
>  >
>  > > for the inaccessibility in the past but now they are making an effort
to
>  > > change that tell me is there anyone trying in the linux community
cort or no
>  > > cort trying to make a screen reader for the G U I part of linux? If
so
>  >
>  > Linux is open source and depends on developers free time among other
>  > things. If you want something written for you then come up with some
dough
>  > to support Linux community. Perhaps if somebody gets all the equipment
>  > needed to develop such a reader, they'll do it. Small markets get less
>  > attention than large ones, simple economics.
>  >
>  > > please send me email so I can try and help but don't complain about
>  > > microsoft when people arn't working to help your beloved oh so
accessible
>  > > linux.
>  >
>  > More nonsense! Nobody owes you free programs. Be happy to get them so
>  > cheap.
>  >
>  > GNU/Linux is just an OS that makes computers usable. It happens to be
very
>  > good tool and free on top of that. Don't like it? Go somewhere else.
>  >
>  > Rafael
>  >
>  >
>  >
>  > _______________________________________________
>  > Blinux-list mailing list
>  > Blinux-list@redhat.com
>  > https://listman.redhat.com/mailman/listinfo/blinux-list
>  >
>
> slainte mhaith (good health), slainte (cheers)
> Uisce Beatha (water of live/health)
> -----------
> Andor Demarteau                 E-mail: ademarte@students.cs.uu.nl
> student computer science        www:
http://www.students.cs.uu.nl/~ademarte/
> Utrecht University              irc: see webpage for details
> -----------
> Believe in yourself, know what you want, and make it happen!
>
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> Blinux-list mailing list
> Blinux-list@redhat.com
> https://listman.redhat.com/mailman/listinfo/blinux-list
>

Re: The growing accessibility gap: was Ameritech.net

[Ari Moisio]

Hi!
Jared 07.09.01:

>If the command line is so grate write me or help write me a mass market
>application that cells to millions of coppies. You can't because you can't

  Well, make it a html-based application:-> Everybody can choose the
most suitable UI.

>use the g u i interface in linux like you can in windows. So you will have

  To be exact: you don't have to use gui in Linux:->

>to write in general smaller market programs if you wish to do that for a
>job. I on the other hand because I'm not thick headed can write G U I
>applications with vb or any number of other tools. As for your comment to

  I have so far believed that because my sighted colleagues don't have
to mess with rewiew modes, guess bitmaps and remember what
alt-leftcontrol-mother-in-law-space did at this mode but now i know what
is my actual problem. Thanks.

  Seriously talking: text-based (or cli if you prefer so) apps are much
easier for screen reader. I have almost same information about screen
contents than my sighted colleagues. In addition i have similar user
interface to enter commands; the keyboard.

  If you can get job in gui environment thats fine. But i personally
cannot compete with sighted colleagues. i'm glad i started to explore
Linux and networks at '95 instead of investing $3k into new computer
(would be obsolete now), os (obsolete now) and screen reader (very
obsolete now).

-- 
Mr. Ari Moisio, Niittykatu 7, 41160 Tikkakoski, +358-40-5055239
ari.moisio@iki.fi http://www.iki.fi/arimo PGP-keyID: 0x3FAF0F05

Re: The growing accessibility gap: was Ameritech.net

[Andor Demarteau]

How hold on please.
1. think before you write, we don't want an os-war on here
2. linux console in my opinion is more accessable then windows
3. there are already java/console tolls
4. fine that you use windows, but you still have trouble with
javascript/flash/applets and whatever extra graphical garble you find on
the web, thatis if no alt-tags are used whihc is in 99% of the cases
5. if memory serves me, Sun is one of the companies working on the gnome
accebility kit
6. msaa okay, but if it wasn't for that nice american law, MS would not
have put such effort in that at all (I remember IE4.0 took about 6 months
to get all the GPF-errors out wheile usiing it under windowbridge and don't
start about office97).
7. Windows XP ahs a narrator (speech stuff), but it sucks trust me


On Fri, 7 Sep 2001 blindguy13@juno.com wrote:

 > Quiet your bitching. The probleum is linux. I use it a little and use
 > windows a lot things with it are a lot more accessible. If you love
 > editing your configeration files so mutch then stay with linux and create
 > your own access bridge sun didn't have to put that out for windows. Html
 > is accessible with internet explorer through jaws, window eyes or what
 > ever else you want to use. As for microsoft I know a tech guy who will
 > bend over backwords to help out with accessibility and in there new
 > visual net relies msaa will be built in to a lot larger extent. Don't
 > bitch at other compinies when if you carred so mutch you could write the
 > damn program to read java your self try working with the accessibility
 > people at sun althoe with an attitude like yours trying to blame
 > everything on big compinies they won't want to work with you it is the
 > small programs I have found are the bigger probleums not the larger ones
 > thats why I am using windows to write this message because it is
 > accessible.
 > ________________________________________________________________
 > GET INTERNET ACCESS FROM JUNO!
 > Juno offers FREE or PREMIUM Internet access for less!
 > Join Juno today!  For your FREE software, visit:
 > http://dl.www.juno.com/get/tagj.
 > 
 > 
 > 
 > _______________________________________________
 > Blinux-list mailing list
 > Blinux-list@redhat.com
 > https://listman.redhat.com/mailman/listinfo/blinux-list
 > 

slainte mhaith (good health), slainte (cheers)
Uisce Beatha (water of live/health)
-----------
Andor Demarteau                 E-mail: ademarte@students.cs.uu.nl
student computer science        www: http://www.students.cs.uu.nl/~ademarte/
Utrecht University              irc: see webpage for details
-----------
Believe in yourself, know what you want, and make it happen!

Re: The growing accessibility gap: was Ameritech.net

[Adam Bertram]

hehe, I knew from the first "bitching" msg, this one would turn into a 
mess.  I think I now have 15 straight messages that have "Re: The growing 
accessibility gap:  was Ameritech.net."  :)

A

---- Original message ----
>Date: Fri, 7 Sep 2001 22:50:49 -0400
>From: "Angelo Sonnesso" <asonnesso@coastalnet.com>  
>Subject: Re: The growing accessibility gap:  was Ameritech.net  
>To: <blinux-list@redhat.com>
>
>look at the gnome development project.
>
>----- Original Message -----
>From: "Jared" <stofflej@yahoo.com>
>To: <blinux-list@redhat.com>
>Sent: Friday, September 07, 2001 10:04 PM
>Subject: Re: The growing accessibility gap: was Ameritech.net
>
>
>> If the command line is so grate write me or help write me a mass market
>> application that cells to millions of coppies. You can't because you 
can't
>> use the g u i interface in linux like you can in windows. So you will 
have
>> to write in general smaller market programs if you wish to do that for a
>> job. I on the other hand because I'm not thick headed can write G U I
>> applications with vb or any number of other tools. As for your comment 
to
>> Mr. Toneby what about the people who tryed to make linux a more user
>> friendly opperaiting system generated a G U I so they generated code 
that
>> turned to inaccessible garbige for you so they are just as mutch at 
fault
>as
>> sun. A large part of microsoft is that the windows 3.1 was not around 
for
>a
>> long enough time for standerds to devolipe. They may have been 
responcible
>> for the inaccessibility in the past but now they are making an effort to
>> change that tell me is there anyone trying in the linux community cort 
or
>no
>> cort trying to make a screen reader for the G U I part of linux? If so
>> please send me email so I can try and help but don't complain about
>> microsoft when people arn't working to help your beloved oh so 
accessible
>> linux.
>> ----- Original Message -----
>> From: "Jude DaShiell" <jdashiel@shellworld.net>
>> To: <blinux-list@redhat.com>
>> Sent: Friday, September 07, 2001 9:35 PM
>> Subject: Re: The growing accessibility gap: was Ameritech.net
>>
>>
>> > The command line interface does not cause me any problems, it's that
>other
>> > junk that makes life hell.  So far as bitching is concerned, you 
haven't
>> > yet heard me bitch.  All I did was to state some widely known and
>accepted
>> > axioms which are axiomatic since they're so easily proven.  Were you
>> > correct in your statements, the Council Of Agencies Serving the blind
>> > would not have contemplated taking Microsoft to court in January of
>1995.
>> > As it was, certain agreements were reached that seemingly alleviated 
the
>> > necessity for litigation.
>> >
>> > Jude <jdashiel@shellworld.net>
>> >
>> >
>> >
>> >
>> > _______________________________________________
>> > Blinux-list mailing list
>> > Blinux-list@redhat.com
>> > https://listman.redhat.com/mailman/listinfo/blinux-list
>>
>>
>> _________________________________________________________
>> Do You Yahoo!?
>> Get your free @yahoo.com address at http://mail.yahoo.com
>>
>>
>>
>> _______________________________________________
>> Blinux-list mailing list
>> Blinux-list@redhat.com
>> https://listman.redhat.com/mailman/listinfo/blinux-list
>>
>
>
>
>_______________________________________________
>Blinux-list mailing list
>Blinux-list@redhat.com
>https://listman.redhat.com/mailman/listinfo/blinux-list

Re: The growing accessibility gap: was Ameritech.net

[Joseph Carter]

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On Sat, Sep 08, 2001 at 03:46:29AM -0100, Adam Bertram wrote:
> hehe, I knew from the first "bitching" msg, this one would turn into a 
> mess.  I think I now have 15 straight messages that have "Re: The growing 
> accessibility gap:  was Ameritech.net."  :)

Do not feed the trolls.  *grin*

-- 
Joseph Carter <knghtbrd@debian.org>                 Free software developer

<Palisade> how are we going to pronounce '00 or '01 or '02 and so on?
<Deek> Say goodbye to the nineties, say hello to the naughties. :)


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