DOS limitations under Linux

DOS limitations under Linux

[Michael Busboom]

I do not yet have Linux installed although that will change soon.  Right
now, I am reading some of the "How to" materials that I have received from
others on this list.

Please excuse me for asking a question that may be totally obvious to
people who use Linux regularly.

If I understand the materials correctly that I am reading, there is a way
to use DOS programs under Linux in a DOS emulation box.  If this is true,
will I be able to use my DOS screen reader in this emulation box?  I own
one old DOSprogram that I have never been able to use because it could
never be loaded together with my screen access software because they
exceeded the 640K limit imposed by DOS.  If my screen access program, which
was Vocal-Eyes, was loaded along with this particular program, I would need
ca. 700K.  Since this old CD ROM contains some useful information to me, I
would love to somehow be able to use it.

Thanks for any and all feedback.

Mike Busboom

Re: DOS limitations under Linux

[Dave Mielke]

On Sat, 7 Nov 1998, Michael Busboom wrote:
>If I understand the materials correctly that I am reading, there is a way
>to use DOS programs under Linux in a DOS emulation box.  If this is true,
>will I be able to use my DOS screen reader in this emulation box?  

You would be able to use your DOS screen reader, but that would not solve
the problem which you outline below. The reason is that the DOS emulator
emulates DOS, which necessarily means that you would be subject to the
same restrictions.

Don't give up hope, though. All you need to do is switch to a Linux screen
reader or braille display. Just load your DOS program into the DOS
emulator, and let Linux tell you what's being displayed. 

>I own
>one old DOSprogram that I have never been able to use because it could
>never be loaded together with my screen access software because they
>exceeded the 640K limit imposed by DOS.  

-- 
Dave Mielke               | 856 Grenon Avenue
Phone: 1-613-726-0014     | Ottawa, Ontario
EMail: dave@mielke.ml.org | Canada  K2B 6G3

Re: DOS limitations under Linux

[Travis Siegel]

On Sat, 7 Nov 1998, Michael Busboom wrote:

> If I understand the materials correctly that I am reading, there is a way
> to use DOS programs under Linux in a DOS emulation box.  If this is true,
> will I be able to use my DOS screen reader in this emulation box?  I own
> one old DOSprogram that I have never been able to use because it could
> never be loaded together with my screen access software because they
> exceeded the 640K limit imposed by DOS.  If my screen access program, which
> was Vocal-Eyes, was loaded along with this particular program, I would need
> ca. 700K.  Since this old CD ROM contains some useful information to me, I
> would love to somehow be able to use it.

There's no need to load a speech program in your dos emulation box, as the
speech handling the linux output will happily handle the dos emulation
program as well.  You wouldn't need to load a second speech program in the
dos emulator, because the one you're already using to access your linux
system will work just as if the dos program was being run under linux
directly.  In fact, this is one way to get programs that don't normally
speak well under dos to chatter up a storm, since the dos emulator
virtualizes all input/output, most everything will speak via linux as it
never would under dos.

Re: DOS limitations under Linux

[John Covici]

Well, I did try the regular released versions of DOSEMU, but I got no
speech out of my Linux screen reader and the DOS screen reader didn't
work too well either -- many of the alt key combinations didn't work
properly.  Is there some specific trick that I need to do to cause the
Linux screen reader to work properly under Dosemu?

Thanks.

on Sat, 7 Nov 1998 10:30:27 -0500 (EST) Travis Siegel <tsiegel@softcon.com> in
<Pine.LNX.3.96.981107102706.1893F-100000@softcon.com> wrote:
>
>There's no need to load a speech program in your dos emulation box, as the
>speech handling the linux output will happily handle the dos emulation
>program as well.  You wouldn't need to load a second speech program in the
>dos emulator, because the one you're already using to access your linux
>system will work just as if the dos program was being run under linux
>directly.  In fact, this is one way to get programs that don't normally
>speak well under dos to chatter up a storm, since the dos emulator
>virtualizes all input/output, most everything will speak via linux as it
>never would under dos.
>
>---
>Send your message for blinux-list to blinux-list@redhat.com
>Blinux software archive at ftp://leb.net/pub/blinux
>Blinux web page at http://leb.net/blinux
>To unsubscribe send mail to blinux-list-request@redhat.com
>with subject line: unsubscribe


-- 
         John Covici
          covici@ccs.covici.com

Re: DOS limitations under Linux

[Dave Mielke]

On Tue, 17 Nov 1998, John Covici wrote:
>Well, I did try the regular released versions of DOSEMU, but I got no
>speech out of my Linux screen reader 

Your Linux screen reader will not work if you instruct DOSEMU to operate in
console mode. This is, of course, because DOSEMU will then write directly to
the console, and bypass the indirect path through the screen reader.

>and the DOS screen reader didn't
>work too well either -- 

You have to configure your DOSEMU COM ports so that they point at the right
Linux devices. They have no implicit bindings.

>many of the alt key combinations didn't work properly.  

Here you have a bit of a contradiction in goals. To get the ALT keys to work,
DOSEMU needs to be in console mode. You actually have to be in a bit more than
console mode, i.e. you have to instruct DOSEMU to use a new virtual console,
and to monitor the keyboard in raw mode.

Fortunately, there are escape sequences to do ALT keys and the like. Assuming
that you're using the default settings for such things, the escape character
for these sequences is whichever key on your keyboard generates the character
whose decimal value is 30. On my keyboard, it's a CTRL-SHIFT-6. You can get a
list of all of the special sequences by typing this key, and then typing a
question mark.

-- 
Dave Mielke               | 856 Grenon Avenue
Phone: 1-613-726-0014     | Ottawa, Ontario
EMail: dave@mielke.ml.org | Canada  K2B 6G3

Re: DOS limitations under Linux

[Roger Butenuth]

Hello,

I am working on a solution that extends brltty with screen-reading
features, that should work because it interacts at kernel level, not at
user level like screen reader. Please give me some more time...

	Roger

> Your Linux screen reader will not work if you instruct DOSEMU to operate in
> console mode. This is, of course, because DOSEMU will then write directly to
> the console, and bypass the indirect path through the screen reader.

--
Roger Butenuth
University of Paderborn
FB 17, Mathematik-Informatik
33095 Paderborn
Tel.: 05251/60-6611
Fax.: 05251/60-6619

Re: DOS limitations under Linux

[Jason White]

Is anyone considering adding a braille translation module to BrlTTY that
would produce Grade II output (in different languages)? Nfbtrans is a
multilingual braille translator with freely obtainable source code, which
could perhaps be a starting point.

Now, if I actually knew C and had studied the fundamentals of algorithm
design, data structures etc., and had enough experience, I could (and
would) write it myself, but that won't be possible in the near future.

Also, I agree in principle with the idea of trying to make BrlTTY act as a
braille display driver for UltraSonix for those who want access to the X
Window System. Would it be possible to make UltraSonix work with the
Emacspeak speech server, thereby consolidating work on speech synthesizer
interfaces as well?

Re: DOS limitations under Linux

[Nicolas Pitre]

On Tue, 17 Nov 1998, Dave Mielke wrote:

> Here you have a bit of a contradiction in goals. To get the ALT keys to work,
> DOSEMU needs to be in console mode. You actually have to be in a bit more than
> console mode, i.e. you have to instruct DOSEMU to use a new virtual console,
> and to monitor the keyboard in raw mode.

I use dosemu with raw keyboard enabled and video = console disabled and
everything work, except BRLTTY's cursor routing and cut'n paste functions.
This way screen review programs can read the screen and al alt
key combinations are available directly.  


Nicolas Pitre, B. ing.
nico@cam.org

Re: DOS limitations under Linux

[Dave Mielke]

On Wed, 18 Nov 1998, Nicolas Pitre wrote:
>I use dosemu with raw keyboard enabled and video = console disabled and
>everything work, except BRLTTY's cursor routing and cut'n paste functions.

As a BRLTTY user, I know this to be true too. The problem with typical speech
screen presentation tools, e.g. screader, is that they require a foreground
server to intercept keyboard input and screen output. This necessarily means
that they use a PTY, which makes DOSEMU's raw keyboard mode impossible to
activate.

With this configuration, by the way, it is only BRLTTY's paste function which
dods not work. Its cut function works just fine in that one can cut from the
DOS session, switch TTYs, and then paste into a Linux session.

>This way screen review programs can read the screen and al alt
>key combinations are available directly.

It would sure be nice if BRLTTY's method of screen monitoring, i.e. background
screen content analysis, would be used by speech applications. While I'm
thinking of it, it would be nice, too, if UltraSonix had a way to communicate
with BRLTTY so that individual braille display drivers would not have to be
rewritten for it.

-- 
Dave Mielke               | 856 Grenon Avenue
Phone: 1-613-726-0014     | Ottawa, Ontario
EMail: dave@mielke.ml.org | Canada  K2B 6G3

best version of linux for the blind

[Nick Gawronski the chihuahua eater]

		   Hi, I am going to upgrade to linux but I only have dos
in my pc and how will I install linux?  What is the best version of linux
for the blind and best screen reader for the blind that supports GWMicro's
synthsizers?  bye 

Re: DOS limitations under Linux

[Jude Dashiell]

Mike,

There's an old dos trick that may make it possible without even using
linux.
If all that was ever loaded was command.com vocaleyes and that monster
program that went to
700K then the trick won't work.  If on the other hand you loaded other
stuff via autoexec.bat on the hard drive,
make a system disk that is bootable and has vocaleyes on it.
Boot the computer with that disk then type in the path and program name
for that other huge
program along with command line parameters.
wordperfect is like that and can't take advantage of extended memory so
when conventional memory runs short for it a
similar strategy gets things working.


------------------------------------------------------------------------

jude <jdashiel@clark.net>

Re: DOS limitations under Linux

[ddunfee]

hello,

all of vocal eyes can be loaded into upper and extended memory allowing
the full 640 k for other use.   also, dr dos, and it's varients and qemm,
allow using the video memory so getting over 700 k of conventional memory
is routine.

dan

Re: DOS limitations under Linux

[Janina Sajka]

I used to get 735K under DOS all the time by excluding A block in memory.
I did it with QEMM in my CONFIG.SYS with an x=A000-AFFF




				Janina Sajka, Director
				Information Systems Department
				American Foundation for the Blind (AFB)

janina@afb.net

Re: DOS limitations under Linux

[Michael P. Gorse]

Maybe you mean including a000-b7ff, at least that works iwth emm386 under
win95 (ie, adding i=a000-b7ff to the emm386 line in config.sys).  Earlier
version of msdos don't seem to give you this extra conventional memory if
you include this region with emm386,m but qemm will work as you suggest...

On Wed, 18 Nov 1998, Janina Sajka wrote:

> I used to get 735K under DOS all the time by excluding A block in memory.
> I did it with QEMM in my CONFIG.SYS with an x=A000-AFFF
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 				Janina Sajka, Director
> 				Information Systems Department
> 				American Foundation for the Blind (AFB)
> 
> janina@afb.net
> 
> 
> 
> ---
> Send your message for blinux-list to blinux-list@redhat.com
> Blinux software archive at ftp://leb.net/pub/blinux
> Blinux web page at http://leb.net/blinux
> To unsubscribe send mail to blinux-list-request@redhat.com
> with subject line: unsubscribe
> 

dos emulation in linux

[ddunfee]

hello,

with many emulation approaches there is a noticeable responsivness/speed
hit.   how is the case with dos under linux?   with today's faster cpu
speeds is it a serious drawback?   i'm quite interested in also using
linux as i can't abide win of any flavor.   i hesitate because of the vast
array of productivity tools i have and use in dos and would be hesitant to
abandon.   i know there is the dual boot approach, but if emulation has no
drawbacks, it would be another motivation to change.   are there any upper
and extended memory problems in dos emulation and how about protected mode
programs?

thanks,

dan

Re: dos emulation in linux

[Travis Siegel]

Why would you need to change over to linux entirely? I have 3 computers
here with dos on them, and one with linux.  I use the linux pc when I want
to do something linux, and I use one of the dos machines when I want dos
usability.  There's no need to abandon dos for the use of linux, though
many have done so, you can continue using dos just as you do now.  I'm not
sure why loosing your dos apps is a concern here.

Re: dos emulation in linux

[ddunfee]

hello,

my concern is my own.   my question is how well and responsivily and with
what memory management facility the dos emulation works under linux.

dan

On Sat, 7 Nov 1998, Travis Siegel wrote:

> Why would you need to change over to linux entirely? I have 3 computers
> here with dos on them, and one with linux.  I use the linux pc when I want
> to do something linux, and I use one of the dos machines when I want dos
> usability.  There's no need to abandon dos for the use of linux, though
> many have done so, you can continue using dos just as you do now.  I'm not
> sure why loosing your dos apps is a concern here.
> 
> ---
> Send your message for blinux-list to blinux-list@redhat.com
> Blinux software archive at ftp://leb.net/pub/blinux
> Blinux web page at http://leb.net/blinux
> To unsubscribe send mail to blinux-list-request@redhat.com
> with subject line: unsubscribe
> 

Re: dos emulation in linux

[wlestes]

visit http://www.dosemu.org, read what they have to say and see if
your question is answered there.

--will

best version of linux for the blind

[Nick Gawronski the chihuahua eater]

		   Hi, What is the best vversion of linux for the blind
and does it work with gwmicro synthsizers?  How can I get it I only have
dos and I do not have a cocompiler.  bye 

Re: best version of linux for the blind

[wlestes]

> 		   Hi, What is the best vversion of linux for the blind
> and does it work with gwmicro synthsizers?  How can I get it I only have
> dos and I do not have a cocompiler.  bye 

visit http://sunsite.unc.edu/LDP where you will find the
Distributions-HOWTO (note the capitalization).

see ftp://ftp.leb.net/pub/blinux/{emacspeak,mbrola,festival,screader} for ideas
on synthesizer support. you might also investigate rsynth from the
blinux ftp site as well.

"best" is a null concept. figure out what you need from your linux
distribution and get the one that does that for you.

--will

Re: dos emulation in linux

[Mike Keithley]

The thing to do is make a Linux partition on the hard drive (something
like 200 MB) and leave the rest for Dos.  Let the machine boot inot Dos
in the normal manner (with not floppy in the drive) but use a floppy
boot disk when you want to use Linux.  It take some time to boot that
floppy but you have Dos when you need it.

-- 
Mike Keithley

Re: dos emulation in linux

[Anthony Campbell]

On 03 Dec 1998q, Mike Keithley wrote:
> The thing to do is make a Linux partition on the hard drive (something
> like 200 MB) and leave the rest for Dos.  Let the machine boot inot Dos
> in the normal manner (with not floppy in the drive) but use a floppy
> boot disk when you want to use Linux.  It take some time to boot that
> floppy but you have Dos when you need it.

Isn't it simpler to use loadlin.exe?  Then you can reboot to Linux from DOS
whenever you like, or, if you set up your autoexec.bat and config.sys
appropriately, you can select which OS you want at boot-up.

Personally, I use loadlin.exe in preference to lilo; as an additional bonus it
makes trying out new kernels quite painless.

Anthony


-- 
Anthony Campbell  -  running Linux Debian 2.0
acampbell@achc.demon.co.uk  http://www.achc.demon.co.uk

"The Moving Finger writes; and, having writ,
Moves on..."   - Edward Fitzgerald

Re: dos emulation in linux

[Toby Fisher]

On Mon, 7 Dec 1998, Anthony Campbell wrote:

> Personally, I use loadlin.exe in preference to lilo; as an additional bonus it
> makes trying out new kernels quite painless.

It also has the added advantage that you can have Linux with your pnp
devices ready-configured.

Toby Fisher	Email: toby@cottingham.u-net.com
	On the web: http://www.cottingham.u-net.com
tel.: 0411 604309 . 
"INtel make faster processors, Microsoft make slower processes." Geoff Blake.