* RE: brltty and simultaneous grade 2 translation
@ Ian Blackburn
0 siblings, 0 replies; 26+ messages in thread
From: Ian Blackburn @ UTC (permalink / raw)
To: 'blinux-list@redhat.com'
Hi again
in outspoken from Alva Access Group for windows once you put grade two
translation on it stays on till you toggle it off again. the only exception
jis the word under the editing cursor. this word is not translated.
> ----------
> From: Bill Gaughan[SMTP:wgaughan@snet.net]
> Reply To: blinux-list@redhat.com
> Sent: Tuesday, 27 November 2001 2:18
> To: blinux-list@redhat.com
> Subject: Re: brltty and simultaneous grade 2 translation
>
> When how would you accommodate continuous grade two reading of text on a
> braille display? I am assuming that if the reader advances the display to
> the next text area (40 or 80 characters) then you would get computer
> braille again and then have to toggle or switch to grade two braille.
>
> Q. How does the brltty buffer get filled? Say, every time you hit next
> page or previous page in pine or hit spacebar in lynx, does it reinit the
> buffer and refill it with new text? all I know is that in spb.exe and
> jaws, once you toggle grade two braille on, it remains on, until you turn
> it off regardless of what you do from the computer keyboard that effect
> the cursor or mouse pointer. text always continues to go to the display as
> grade two until you turn it off.
>
>
> --
> Bill Gaughan
> wgaughan@snet.net
>
>
> On Mon, 26 Nov 2001, Dave Mielke wrote:
>
> > [quoted lines by John J. Boyer on November 26, 2001, at 08:49]
> >
> > Hi:
> >
> > >The Grade 2 translation should be on-the-fly and should affect only as
> much
> > >information as will fit on the display.
> >
> > BRLTTY, of course, would have no way of knowing how much translated data
> will
> > fit within the braille window. It, therefore, would have to pass in the
> whole
> > rest of the line starting at the position where the left end of the
> braille
> > window is.
> >
> > What about the case where the left end of the braille window starts in
> the
> > middle of a contraction? This shouldn't happen when already in grade 2
> mode,
> > but might happen when switching into grade 2 mode. I guess it should
> just leave
> > that little bit at the beginning uncontracted.
> >
> > There's also the possibility that the end of what'll fit within the
> braille
> > window won't fit. Should it show the beginning of the
> contraction/symbol, or
> > leave the end of the window blank?
> >
> > >Translating the whole screen at once
> > >would probably be a bad idea.
> >
> > I agree, even if simply because it may be a lot of useless work since
> the
> > screen might change by the time te reader gets there.
> >
> > >One way the Grade 2 translator could work
> > >would be to pass it the place where the translation is to begin. It
> will
> > >then translate as much as will fit on the display and pass back the
> place
> > >where it ended.
> >
> > I think it'd have to be screen unaware. I'd like to be able to pass in a
> > character string, which would end up being the rest of the current line
> from
> > the place where the braille window starts. To make cut&paste work
> correctly,
> > I'd want back the offset into the input string of each character in the
> output
> > string.
> >
> > >The translation tables should be provided in a form that is easily
> edited,
> > >so that users can make changes and write tables for new languages. A
> table
> > >compiler would probably be advisable to preprocess the tables before
> they
> > >are actually used in translation.
> >
> > Yes, that'd be a good way to design it. Hopefully the table would be
> general
> > enough to support languages other than English.
> >
> > >A keystroke on the Braille display can toggle between Grade 2 and the
> > >present display mode.
> >
> > Agreed.
> >
> > >The table can be "compiled" when BRLTTY starts, or even recompiled
> > >on-the-fly with a special keystroke.
> >
> > Bewtter yet might be to check the timestamp on the table, and recompile
> if it
> > changes.
> >
> > >We can do better than Jaws, which doesn't have user-accessible tables.
> >
> > Of course!
> >
> >
>
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> Blinux-list mailing list
> Blinux-list@redhat.com
> https://listman.redhat.com/mailman/listinfo/blinux-list
>
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^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 26+ messages in thread
* linux, and audio.
@ cbowman
` brltty and simultaneous grade 2 translation Bill Gaughan
0 siblings, 1 reply; 26+ messages in thread
From: cbowman @ UTC (permalink / raw)
To: blinux-list
hi listers, here i am with another question. i was wondering are there eany
good programs out there for linux to let us play, and record audio files
such as realaudio, mp3s, wav, or eanything like that. also I know that in
windows we can listen to things on the net but, can we do this in linux
also? thanks
charles
Net-Tamer V 1.11 - Test Drive
^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 26+ messages in thread
* brltty and simultaneous grade 2 translation
linux, and audio cbowman
@ ` Bill Gaughan
` Dave Mielke
0 siblings, 1 reply; 26+ messages in thread
From: Bill Gaughan @ UTC (permalink / raw)
To: blinux-list
Does anyone have plug-in code for the brltty source tree that will hot-key
simultaneous grade 2 translation of braille on the display while keeping
the screen as conventional text. ScrrenPower Braille for DOS does this,
for those of us who have PowerBraille devices from TeleSensory.
If only "SPB.exe" (DOS) had cut and paste like "BRLTTY" does. and if only
"BRLTTY" had spontaneous grade 2 translation of text like the "view2.exe"
feature of the SPB package for DOS.
Just wondered. Then we could read conventional braille and listen at the
same time with ViaVoice, and all that in linux, too! Just what do you
think of that, Mr. Gates?
--
Bill Gaughan
wgaughan@snet.net
^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 26+ messages in thread* Re: brltty and simultaneous grade 2 translation
` brltty and simultaneous grade 2 translation Bill Gaughan
@ ` Dave Mielke
` John J. Boyer
0 siblings, 1 reply; 26+ messages in thread
From: Dave Mielke @ UTC (permalink / raw)
To: blinux-list
[quoted lines by Bill Gaughan on November 25, 2001, at 15:35]
>Does anyone have plug-in code for the brltty source tree that will hot-key
>simultaneous grade 2 translation of braille on the display while keeping
>the screen as conventional text.
How would you expect it to work? Would you expect it to apply to one line at a
time, to the whole screen (compacting several lines into fewer lines), to a
rectangular region on the screen, or what? What if, due to the number of
"special" characters, a line becomes longer than the screen width? What other
factors to you feel need to be considered? What clever ideas can be "borrowed"
from those who are already providing such a feature? What do others think? What
do those who speak languages other than English think?
--
Dave Mielke | 2213 Fox Crescent | I believe that the Bible is the
Phone: 1-613-726-0014 | Ottawa, Ontario | Word of God. Please contact me
EMail: dave@mielke.cc | Canada K2A 1H7 | if you're concerned about Hell.
^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 26+ messages in thread* Re: brltty and simultaneous grade 2 translation
` Dave Mielke
@ ` John J. Boyer
` Dave Mielke
0 siblings, 1 reply; 26+ messages in thread
From: John J. Boyer @ UTC (permalink / raw)
To: blinux-list
Dave,
The Grade 2 translation should be on-the-fly and should affect only as much
information as will fit on the display. Translating the whole screen at once
would probably be a bad idea. One way the Grade 2 translator could work
would be to pass it the place where the translation is to begin. It will
then translate as much as will fit on the display and pass back the place
where it ended. When the user advances the display it would resume where it
left off.
The translation tables should be provided in a form that is easily edited,
so that users can make changes and write tables for new languages. A table
compiler would probably be advisable to preprocess the tables before they
are actually used in translation.
A keystroke on the Braille display can toggle between Grade 2 and the
present display mode.
The table can be "compiled" when BRLTTY starts, or even recompiled
on-the-fly with a special keystroke.
We can do better than Jaws, which doesn't have user-accessible tables.
John
Computers to Help People, Inc.
http://www.chpi.org
825 East Johnson; Madison, WI 53703
----- Original Message -----
From: "Dave Mielke" <dave@mielke.cc>
To: <blinux-list@redhat.com>
Sent: Monday, November 26, 2001 07:00
Subject: Re: brltty and simultaneous grade 2 translation
> [quoted lines by Bill Gaughan on November 25, 2001, at 15:35]
>
> >Does anyone have plug-in code for the brltty source tree that will
hot-key
> >simultaneous grade 2 translation of braille on the display while keeping
> >the screen as conventional text.
>
> How would you expect it to work? Would you expect it to apply to one line
at a
> time, to the whole screen (compacting several lines into fewer lines), to
a
> rectangular region on the screen, or what? What if, due to the number of
> "special" characters, a line becomes longer than the screen width? What
other
> factors to you feel need to be considered? What clever ideas can be
"borrowed"
> from those who are already providing such a feature? What do others think?
What
> do those who speak languages other than English think?
>
> --
> Dave Mielke | 2213 Fox Crescent | I believe that the Bible is
the
> Phone: 1-613-726-0014 | Ottawa, Ontario | Word of God. Please contact me
> EMail: dave@mielke.cc | Canada K2A 1H7 | if you're concerned about
Hell.
>
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> Blinux-list mailing list
> Blinux-list@redhat.com
> https://listman.redhat.com/mailman/listinfo/blinux-list
>
^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 26+ messages in thread* Re: brltty and simultaneous grade 2 translation
` John J. Boyer
@ ` Dave Mielke
` John J. Boyer
` (2 more replies)
0 siblings, 3 replies; 26+ messages in thread
From: Dave Mielke @ UTC (permalink / raw)
To: blinux-list
[quoted lines by John J. Boyer on November 26, 2001, at 08:49]
Hi:
>The Grade 2 translation should be on-the-fly and should affect only as much
>information as will fit on the display.
BRLTTY, of course, would have no way of knowing how much translated data will
fit within the braille window. It, therefore, would have to pass in the whole
rest of the line starting at the position where the left end of the braille
window is.
What about the case where the left end of the braille window starts in the
middle of a contraction? This shouldn't happen when already in grade 2 mode,
but might happen when switching into grade 2 mode. I guess it should just leave
that little bit at the beginning uncontracted.
There's also the possibility that the end of what'll fit within the braille
window won't fit. Should it show the beginning of the contraction/symbol, or
leave the end of the window blank?
>Translating the whole screen at once
>would probably be a bad idea.
I agree, even if simply because it may be a lot of useless work since the
screen might change by the time te reader gets there.
>One way the Grade 2 translator could work
>would be to pass it the place where the translation is to begin. It will
>then translate as much as will fit on the display and pass back the place
>where it ended.
I think it'd have to be screen unaware. I'd like to be able to pass in a
character string, which would end up being the rest of the current line from
the place where the braille window starts. To make cut&paste work correctly,
I'd want back the offset into the input string of each character in the output
string.
>The translation tables should be provided in a form that is easily edited,
>so that users can make changes and write tables for new languages. A table
>compiler would probably be advisable to preprocess the tables before they
>are actually used in translation.
Yes, that'd be a good way to design it. Hopefully the table would be general
enough to support languages other than English.
>A keystroke on the Braille display can toggle between Grade 2 and the
>present display mode.
Agreed.
>The table can be "compiled" when BRLTTY starts, or even recompiled
>on-the-fly with a special keystroke.
Bewtter yet might be to check the timestamp on the table, and recompile if it
changes.
>We can do better than Jaws, which doesn't have user-accessible tables.
Of course!
--
Dave Mielke | 2213 Fox Crescent | I believe that the Bible is the
Phone: 1-613-726-0014 | Ottawa, Ontario | Word of God. Please contact me
EMail: dave@mielke.cc | Canada K2A 1H7 | if you're concerned about Hell.
^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 26+ messages in thread* Re: brltty and simultaneous grade 2 translation
` Dave Mielke
@ ` John J. Boyer
` Dave Mielke
` Bill Gaughan
` Nicolas Pitre
2 siblings, 1 reply; 26+ messages in thread
From: John J. Boyer @ UTC (permalink / raw)
To: blinux-list
Dave,
I am assuming that brltty would pass a pointer to a position in a string.
The Grade 2 translation routine would then translate until it reached the
end of the string or until it had enough to fill the Braille display. If it
found that the last word would not fit on the display it would backtrack to
the beginning of that word and just leave a few blanks at the end of the
display. In any case, it would pass back a pointer to the place in the input
string where translation should resume, or perhaps an integer count of the
number of characters in the input string that it translated.
If the pointer into the input string indicating where the translation was to
begin happened to be in the middle of a word the translator would just
process the rest of the word, whatever that might turn out to be, instead of
trying to find the beginning of the word and probably producing some nasty
bugs.
I think that cut and paste should simply not be attempted if the Grade 2
translation is on. Brltty should refuse to carry it out and should display a
message asking the user to turn grade 2 translation off.
John
Computers to Help People, Inc.
http://www.chpi.org
825 East Johnson; Madison, WI 53703
----- Original Message -----
From: "Dave Mielke" <dave@mielke.cc>
To: <blinux-list@redhat.com>
Sent: Monday, November 26, 2001 11:44
Subject: Re: brltty and simultaneous grade 2 translation
> [quoted lines by John J. Boyer on November 26, 2001, at 08:49]
>
> Hi:
>
> >The Grade 2 translation should be on-the-fly and should affect only as
much
> >information as will fit on the display.
>
> BRLTTY, of course, would have no way of knowing how much translated data
will
> fit within the braille window. It, therefore, would have to pass in the
whole
> rest of the line starting at the position where the left end of the
braille
> window is.
>
> What about the case where the left end of the braille window starts in the
> middle of a contraction? This shouldn't happen when already in grade 2
mode,
> but might happen when switching into grade 2 mode. I guess it should just
leave
> that little bit at the beginning uncontracted.
>
> There's also the possibility that the end of what'll fit within the
braille
> window won't fit. Should it show the beginning of the contraction/symbol,
or
> leave the end of the window blank?
>
> >Translating the whole screen at once
> >would probably be a bad idea.
>
> I agree, even if simply because it may be a lot of useless work since the
> screen might change by the time te reader gets there.
>
> >One way the Grade 2 translator could work
> >would be to pass it the place where the translation is to begin. It will
> >then translate as much as will fit on the display and pass back the
place
> >where it ended.
>
> I think it'd have to be screen unaware. I'd like to be able to pass in a
> character string, which would end up being the rest of the current line
from
> the place where the braille window starts. To make cut&paste work
correctly,
> I'd want back the offset into the input string of each character in the
output
> string.
>
> >The translation tables should be provided in a form that is easily
edited,
> >so that users can make changes and write tables for new languages. A
table
> >compiler would probably be advisable to preprocess the tables before they
> >are actually used in translation.
>
> Yes, that'd be a good way to design it. Hopefully the table would be
general
> enough to support languages other than English.
>
> >A keystroke on the Braille display can toggle between Grade 2 and the
> >present display mode.
>
> Agreed.
>
> >The table can be "compiled" when BRLTTY starts, or even recompiled
> >on-the-fly with a special keystroke.
>
> Bewtter yet might be to check the timestamp on the table, and recompile if
it
> changes.
>
> >We can do better than Jaws, which doesn't have user-accessible tables.
>
> Of course!
>
> --
> Dave Mielke | 2213 Fox Crescent | I believe that the Bible is
the
> Phone: 1-613-726-0014 | Ottawa, Ontario | Word of God. Please contact me
> EMail: dave@mielke.cc | Canada K2A 1H7 | if you're concerned about
Hell.
>
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> Blinux-list mailing list
> Blinux-list@redhat.com
> https://listman.redhat.com/mailman/listinfo/blinux-list
>
^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 26+ messages in thread* Re: brltty and simultaneous grade 2 translation
` John J. Boyer
@ ` Dave Mielke
` John J. Boyer
0 siblings, 1 reply; 26+ messages in thread
From: Dave Mielke @ UTC (permalink / raw)
To: blinux-list
[quoted lines by John J. Boyer on November 26, 2001, at 11:39]
>I am assuming that brltty would pass a pointer to a position in a string.
I have a thing against null-terminated strings, and would prefer to pass in an
address and a length.
>The Grade 2 translation routine would then translate until it reached the
>end of the string or until it had enough to fill the Braille display.
Yes, although that'd mean that an additional parameter, i.e. an integer set to
the braille window width, would also need to be passed to the translation
routine.
>If it
>found that the last word would not fit on the display it would backtrack to
>the beginning of that word and just leave a few blanks at the end of the
>display.
That's definitely the simplest, most predictable, and least error prone way to
do it.
>In any case, it would pass back a pointer to the place in the input
>string where translation should resume, or perhaps an integer count of the
>number of characters in the input string that it translated.
I'd prefer an integer count. This count should include any trailing blanks.
>If the pointer into the input string indicating where the translation was to
>begin happened to be in the middle of a word the translator would just
>process the rest of the word, whatever that might turn out to be, instead of
>trying to find the beginning of the word and probably producing some nasty
>bugs.
That's certainly a good starting point. If, with it working that way, there are
no complaints, then it'll prove itself to be an adequate solution.
>I think that cut and paste should simply not be attempted if the Grade 2
>translation is on. Brltty should refuse to carry it out and should display a
>message asking the user to turn grade 2 translation off.
I'd sure like it to work, as I dislike denying functionality based on
implementation restrictions. It could easily be made to work if the translation
routine were to pass back an offset into the input string for each character in
the output buffer.
--
Dave Mielke | 2213 Fox Crescent | I believe that the Bible is the
Phone: 1-613-726-0014 | Ottawa, Ontario | Word of God. Please contact me
EMail: dave@mielke.cc | Canada K2A 1H7 | if you're concerned about Hell.
^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 26+ messages in thread* Re: brltty and simultaneous grade 2 translation
` Dave Mielke
@ ` John J. Boyer
` Dave Mielke
0 siblings, 1 reply; 26+ messages in thread
From: John J. Boyer @ UTC (permalink / raw)
To: blinux-list
Dave,
I prefer a pointer and a length also. I think it would be a good idea to
have a global variable containing the length of the Braille display, so it
wouldn't have to be passed. I can pass back an aray of the position in the
input buffer of each character in the output buffer, but I feel a bit
uncomfortable about doing cut and paste in Grade 2 because Grade 2 isn't 1
for 1. I would probably turn off Grade 2 before doing cut and paste.
Perhaps it would be better if we take this discussion of-list and work out
the programming details and the format of the translation tables between us.
John
Computers to Help People, Inc.
http://www.chpi.org
825 East Johnson; Madison, WI 53703
----- Original Message -----
From: "Dave Mielke" <dave@mielke.cc>
To: <blinux-list@redhat.com>
Sent: Monday, November 26, 2001 12:45
Subject: Re: brltty and simultaneous grade 2 translation
> [quoted lines by John J. Boyer on November 26, 2001, at 11:39]
>
> >I am assuming that brltty would pass a pointer to a position in a string.
>
> I have a thing against null-terminated strings, and would prefer to pass
in an
> address and a length.
>
> >The Grade 2 translation routine would then translate until it reached the
> >end of the string or until it had enough to fill the Braille display.
>
> Yes, although that'd mean that an additional parameter, i.e. an integer
set to
> the braille window width, would also need to be passed to the translation
> routine.
>
> >If it
> >found that the last word would not fit on the display it would backtrack
to
> >the beginning of that word and just leave a few blanks at the end of the
> >display.
>
> That's definitely the simplest, most predictable, and least error prone
way to
> do it.
>
> >In any case, it would pass back a pointer to the place in the input
> >string where translation should resume, or perhaps an integer count of
the
> >number of characters in the input string that it translated.
>
> I'd prefer an integer count. This count should include any trailing
blanks.
>
> >If the pointer into the input string indicating where the translation was
to
> >begin happened to be in the middle of a word the translator would just
> >process the rest of the word, whatever that might turn out to be, instead
of
> >trying to find the beginning of the word and probably producing some
nasty
> >bugs.
>
> That's certainly a good starting point. If, with it working that way,
there are
> no complaints, then it'll prove itself to be an adequate solution.
>
> >I think that cut and paste should simply not be attempted if the Grade 2
> >translation is on. Brltty should refuse to carry it out and should
display a
> >message asking the user to turn grade 2 translation off.
>
> I'd sure like it to work, as I dislike denying functionality based on
> implementation restrictions. It could easily be made to work if the
translation
> routine were to pass back an offset into the input string for each
character in
> the output buffer.
>
> --
> Dave Mielke | 2213 Fox Crescent | I believe that the Bible is
the
> Phone: 1-613-726-0014 | Ottawa, Ontario | Word of God. Please contact me
> EMail: dave@mielke.cc | Canada K2A 1H7 | if you're concerned about
Hell.
>
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> Blinux-list mailing list
> Blinux-list@redhat.com
> https://listman.redhat.com/mailman/listinfo/blinux-list
>
^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 26+ messages in thread* Re: brltty and simultaneous grade 2 translation
` John J. Boyer
@ ` Dave Mielke
` John J. Boyer
0 siblings, 1 reply; 26+ messages in thread
From: Dave Mielke @ UTC (permalink / raw)
To: blinux-list
[quoted lines by John J. Boyer on November 26, 2001, at 13:10]
>I prefer a pointer and a length also. I think it would be a good idea to
>have a global variable containing the length of the Braille display, so it
>wouldn't have to be passed.
I prefer passing it via a parameter so that, should the imagination kick in, we
can get more inventive regarding what gets translated when.
>I can pass back an aray of the position in the
>input buffer of each character in the output buffer, but I feel a bit
>uncomfortable about doing cut and paste in Grade 2 because Grade 2 isn't 1
>for 1. I would probably turn off Grade 2 before doing cut and paste.
As long as the array identifies non-first characters of sequences, BRLTTY could
easily enforce that only the first character of a sequence can be used when
cutting. Better yet, the first character should be used for the start of the
selected text, but the last character should be used for the end of the
selected text. The array, however, need only mark the first character of each
sequence, as BRLTTY could easily figure out the rest.
--
Dave Mielke | 2213 Fox Crescent | I believe that the Bible is the
Phone: 1-613-726-0014 | Ottawa, Ontario | Word of God. Please contact me
EMail: dave@mielke.cc | Canada K2A 1H7 | if you're concerned about Hell.
^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 26+ messages in thread* Re: brltty and simultaneous grade 2 translation
` Dave Mielke
@ ` John J. Boyer
` Dave Mielke
` Nicolas Pitre
0 siblings, 2 replies; 26+ messages in thread
From: John J. Boyer @ UTC (permalink / raw)
To: blinux-list
Dave,
This all sounds fine to me. Now about the format of the translation table.
Since we want to accomodate many languages, I think it would be best to put
each rule on a line by itself and to use a simple space between the parts of
the rule. As I see it, each rule would consist of a source string, a space,
the destination string, space, and a number that specifies whether the
source string is a whole word, should be translated only if it is in the
middle of a word, etc. If either the source or destination string includes a
space, we can arrange for an escape sequence. This would be necessary no
matter what separation character we used.
John
Computers to Help People, Inc.
http://www.chpi.org
825 East Johnson; Madison, WI 53703
----- Original Message -----
From: "Dave Mielke" <dave@mielke.cc>
To: <blinux-list@redhat.com>
Sent: Monday, November 26, 2001 14:19
Subject: Re: brltty and simultaneous grade 2 translation
> [quoted lines by John J. Boyer on November 26, 2001, at 13:10]
>
> >I prefer a pointer and a length also. I think it would be a good idea to
> >have a global variable containing the length of the Braille display, so
it
> >wouldn't have to be passed.
>
> I prefer passing it via a parameter so that, should the imagination kick
in, we
> can get more inventive regarding what gets translated when.
>
> >I can pass back an aray of the position in the
> >input buffer of each character in the output buffer, but I feel a bit
> >uncomfortable about doing cut and paste in Grade 2 because Grade 2 isn't
1
> >for 1. I would probably turn off Grade 2 before doing cut and paste.
>
> As long as the array identifies non-first characters of sequences, BRLTTY
could
> easily enforce that only the first character of a sequence can be used
when
> cutting. Better yet, the first character should be used for the start of
the
> selected text, but the last character should be used for the end of the
> selected text. The array, however, need only mark the first character of
each
> sequence, as BRLTTY could easily figure out the rest.
>
> --
> Dave Mielke | 2213 Fox Crescent | I believe that the Bible is
the
> Phone: 1-613-726-0014 | Ottawa, Ontario | Word of God. Please contact me
> EMail: dave@mielke.cc | Canada K2A 1H7 | if you're concerned about
Hell.
>
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> Blinux-list mailing list
> Blinux-list@redhat.com
> https://listman.redhat.com/mailman/listinfo/blinux-list
>
^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 26+ messages in thread* Re: brltty and simultaneous grade 2 translation
` John J. Boyer
@ ` Dave Mielke
` John J. Boyer
` Nicolas Pitre
1 sibling, 1 reply; 26+ messages in thread
From: Dave Mielke @ UTC (permalink / raw)
To: blinux-list
[quoted lines by John J. Boyer on November 26, 2001, at 14:12]
>Since we want to accomodate many languages, I think it would be best to put
>each rule on a line by itself and to use a simple space between the parts of
>the rule.
I think tabs will also need to be supported since some editors insert them in
spite of what their users might happen to prefer. :-)
Any number (one or more) of tabs and spaces should be permitted between each
part. Blank lines should be skipped. Comments should be supported, and, to be
as familiar as possible to Unix users, the # character should initiate a
comment.
>As I see it, each rule would consist of a source string, a space,
>the destination string, space, and a number that specifies whether the
>source string is a whole word, should be translated only if it is in the
>middle of a word, etc.
This part I'll have to defer to the experts in the field.
>If either the source or destination string includes a
>space, we can arrange for an escape sequence. This would be necessary no
>matter what separation character we used.
Agreed. Unix people have a love/hate relationship with the backslash, so it
might as well be used.
--
Dave Mielke | 2213 Fox Crescent | I believe that the Bible is the
Phone: 1-613-726-0014 | Ottawa, Ontario | Word of God. Please contact me
EMail: dave@mielke.cc | Canada K2A 1H7 | if you're concerned about Hell.
^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 26+ messages in thread* Re: brltty and simultaneous grade 2 translation
` Dave Mielke
@ ` John J. Boyer
` Dave Mielke
` Nicolas Pitre
0 siblings, 2 replies; 26+ messages in thread
From: John J. Boyer @ UTC (permalink / raw)
To: blinux-list
Dave,
Comments are a good idea. However, any character used as a comment indicator
will present problems, since it could be used in some language. Perhaps the
# could indicate a comment only if it is the very first character in a line
or of it follows the number, separated from it by a space or tab. If a
source string has # as its first character it can be indented a space or
two. That would mean that leading spaces on a line would be ignored.
John
Computers to Help People, Inc.
http://www.chpi.org
825 East Johnson; Madison, WI 53703
----- Original Message -----
From: "Dave Mielke" <dave@mielke.cc>
To: <blinux-list@redhat.com>
Sent: Monday, November 26, 2001 15:16
Subject: Re: brltty and simultaneous grade 2 translation
> [quoted lines by John J. Boyer on November 26, 2001, at 14:12]
>
> >Since we want to accomodate many languages, I think it would be best to
put
> >each rule on a line by itself and to use a simple space between the parts
of
> >the rule.
>
> I think tabs will also need to be supported since some editors insert them
in
> spite of what their users might happen to prefer. :-)
>
> Any number (one or more) of tabs and spaces should be permitted between
each
> part. Blank lines should be skipped. Comments should be supported, and, to
be
> as familiar as possible to Unix users, the # character should initiate a
> comment.
>
> >As I see it, each rule would consist of a source string, a space,
> >the destination string, space, and a number that specifies whether the
> >source string is a whole word, should be translated only if it is in the
> >middle of a word, etc.
>
> This part I'll have to defer to the experts in the field.
>
> >If either the source or destination string includes a
> >space, we can arrange for an escape sequence. This would be necessary no
> >matter what separation character we used.
>
> Agreed. Unix people have a love/hate relationship with the backslash, so
it
> might as well be used.
>
> --
> Dave Mielke | 2213 Fox Crescent | I believe that the Bible is
the
> Phone: 1-613-726-0014 | Ottawa, Ontario | Word of God. Please contact me
> EMail: dave@mielke.cc | Canada K2A 1H7 | if you're concerned about
Hell.
>
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> Blinux-list mailing list
> Blinux-list@redhat.com
> https://listman.redhat.com/mailman/listinfo/blinux-list
>
^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 26+ messages in thread* Re: brltty and simultaneous grade 2 translation
` John J. Boyer
@ ` Dave Mielke
` Nicolas Pitre
1 sibling, 0 replies; 26+ messages in thread
From: Dave Mielke @ UTC (permalink / raw)
To: blinux-list
[quoted lines by John J. Boyer on November 26, 2001, at 14:53]
>Comments are a good idea. However, any character used as a comment indicator
>will present problems, since it could be used in some language. Perhaps the
># could indicate a comment only if it is the very first character in a line
>or of it follows the number, separated from it by a space or tab.
Yes, although I think a good modification would be to put the number part of
the rule first. This would add the flexibility of allowing different numbers to
have different sets of operands. There's no great need to support a comment at
the end of a rule line.
>If a
>source string has # as its first character it can be indented a space or
>two. That would mean that leading spaces on a line would be ignored.
That's another reason why putting the number first is better. Leading spaces
should be ignored anyway, since all applications which insist on no indentation
have routinely proven themselves to be rather annoying.
--
Dave Mielke | 2213 Fox Crescent | I believe that the Bible is the
Phone: 1-613-726-0014 | Ottawa, Ontario | Word of God. Please contact me
EMail: dave@mielke.cc | Canada K2A 1H7 | if you're concerned about Hell.
^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 26+ messages in thread* Re: brltty and simultaneous grade 2 translation
` John J. Boyer
` Dave Mielke
@ ` Nicolas Pitre
` John J. Boyer
1 sibling, 1 reply; 26+ messages in thread
From: Nicolas Pitre @ UTC (permalink / raw)
To: blinux-list
On Mon, 26 Nov 2001, John J. Boyer wrote:
> Dave,
> Comments are a good idea. However, any character used as a comment indicator
> will present problems, since it could be used in some language. Perhaps the
> # could indicate a comment only if it is the very first character in a line
> or of it follows the number, separated from it by a space or tab. If a
> source string has # as its first character it can be indented a space or
> two. That would mean that leading spaces on a line would be ignored.
I'd suggest supporting a dot pattern representation directly instead of
relying on ascii correspondance which may well be different from one braille
table to another, especially for symbols outside of the standard alphabet.
Nicolas
^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 26+ messages in thread* Re: brltty and simultaneous grade 2 translation
` Nicolas Pitre
@ ` John J. Boyer
` Nicolas Pitre
0 siblings, 1 reply; 26+ messages in thread
From: John J. Boyer @ UTC (permalink / raw)
To: blinux-list
Nicolas,
I'll take a look at nfbtrans and also at the Duxbury table format. I kind of
dooubt that nfbtrans would be very good at supporting languages other than
English.
I like Dave's suggestion of putting the number first in the rules. This
number actually indicates a pattern-matching method. So the algorithm would
be more than a simple pattern replacement. I know French. Where could I find
their Braille code, preferably on the Web?
I think that a direct dot pattern representation would not be as clear as
using the ASCII characters that are used to represent Braille dot patterns
in the particular language. Don't the text-translation tables already take
care of translating to whatever characters a particular display needs to
represent a particular dot pattern. Of course, we might need to have an
escapt sequence for representing non-printing characters, such as \xnn
John
Computers to Help People, Inc.
http://www.chpi.org
825 East Johnson; Madison, WI 53703
----- Original Message -----
From: "Nicolas Pitre" <nico@cam.org>
To: <blinux-list@redhat.com>
Sent: Monday, November 26, 2001 16:13
Subject: Re: brltty and simultaneous grade 2 translation
> On Mon, 26 Nov 2001, John J. Boyer wrote:
>
> > Dave,
> > Comments are a good idea. However, any character used as a comment
indicator
> > will present problems, since it could be used in some language. Perhaps
the
> > # could indicate a comment only if it is the very first character in a
line
> > or of it follows the number, separated from it by a space or tab. If a
> > source string has # as its first character it can be indented a space or
> > two. That would mean that leading spaces on a line would be ignored.
>
> I'd suggest supporting a dot pattern representation directly instead of
> relying on ascii correspondance which may well be different from one
braille
> table to another, especially for symbols outside of the standard alphabet.
>
>
> Nicolas
>
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> Blinux-list mailing list
> Blinux-list@redhat.com
> https://listman.redhat.com/mailman/listinfo/blinux-list
>
^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 26+ messages in thread* Re: brltty and simultaneous grade 2 translation
` John J. Boyer
@ ` Nicolas Pitre
` John J. Boyer
0 siblings, 1 reply; 26+ messages in thread
From: Nicolas Pitre @ UTC (permalink / raw)
To: blinux-list
On Mon, 26 Nov 2001, John J. Boyer wrote:
> I like Dave's suggestion of putting the number first in the rules. This
> number actually indicates a pattern-matching method. So the algorithm would
> be more than a simple pattern replacement. I know French. Where could I find
> their Braille code, preferably on the Web?
Don't know. I learned compressed French braille a couple years ago.
Although I still can read it more or less with surrounding context, I fear I
wouldn't be able to write it anymore. There are the pretty generic rules
which are sensible, but you must also account for the hundreds of ad hoc
rules.
> I think that a direct dot pattern representation would not be as clear as
> using the ASCII characters that are used to represent Braille dot patterns
> in the particular language. Don't the text-translation tables already take
> care of translating to whatever characters a particular display needs to
> represent a particular dot pattern.
Well... not necessarily. At least not in French, especially when it comes
to computer braille. French braille is quite well defined for
paper literature, but computer braille is a much random matter, especially
for non alphabetical characters. A simple dot "." may translate to
different dot pattern depending on your taste. I even got my own braille
table to use with BRLTTY as I couldn't stand the other available tables
which seemed not natural to me.
Therefore it would be much simpler, at least for the French braille
compression, to just tell BRLTTY: replace each "ation" sufix in a word by
dots 3-4, "ent" sufixes by dot 1-2-6, and so on, since that's actually how
it is defined for paper document and not fiddle with the current braille
table for the non translated case. Still I may wish to read compressed
English text without having to change my own braille table for something I
couldn't understand just because the braille compressor was defined with a
particular braille table in mind.
Nicolas
^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 26+ messages in thread* Re: brltty and simultaneous grade 2 translation
` Nicolas Pitre
@ ` John J. Boyer
0 siblings, 0 replies; 26+ messages in thread
From: John J. Boyer @ UTC (permalink / raw)
To: blinux-list
Nicolas,
I see your point about specifying actual dot patterns. Perhaps the
translation table could be set up to allow both dot patterns and ASCII.
I'll try to find the French Braille code. It looks like a good test case.
It turns out that the format of the translation tables in nfbtrans is
similar to the one we have been discussing: number (pattern matching
method), source string, replacement string. However, nfbtrans appears to be
the product of many hands, with bits and pieces added from time. It is also
very inefficiently coded, with redundant if statements. Considering my
experience in program maintenance and in writing translators for other
purposes, I think it would probably be less time-consuming to just start
from scratch. Though I wouldn't actually be starting from scratch, because I
already have a translating routine that might be modifiable.
John
Computers to Help People, Inc.
http://www.chpi.org
825 East Johnson; Madison, WI 53703
----- Original Message -----
From: "Nicolas Pitre" <nico@cam.org>
To: <blinux-list@redhat.com>
Sent: Monday, November 26, 2001 18:09
Subject: Re: brltty and simultaneous grade 2 translation
> On Mon, 26 Nov 2001, John J. Boyer wrote:
>
> > I like Dave's suggestion of putting the number first in the rules. This
> > number actually indicates a pattern-matching method. So the algorithm
would
> > be more than a simple pattern replacement. I know French. Where could I
find
> > their Braille code, preferably on the Web?
>
> Don't know. I learned compressed French braille a couple years ago.
> Although I still can read it more or less with surrounding context, I fear
I
> wouldn't be able to write it anymore. There are the pretty generic rules
> which are sensible, but you must also account for the hundreds of ad hoc
> rules.
>
> > I think that a direct dot pattern representation would not be as clear
as
> > using the ASCII characters that are used to represent Braille dot
patterns
> > in the particular language. Don't the text-translation tables already
take
> > care of translating to whatever characters a particular display needs to
> > represent a particular dot pattern.
>
> Well... not necessarily. At least not in French, especially when it comes
> to computer braille. French braille is quite well defined for
> paper literature, but computer braille is a much random matter, especially
> for non alphabetical characters. A simple dot "." may translate to
> different dot pattern depending on your taste. I even got my own braille
> table to use with BRLTTY as I couldn't stand the other available tables
> which seemed not natural to me.
>
> Therefore it would be much simpler, at least for the French braille
> compression, to just tell BRLTTY: replace each "ation" sufix in a word by
> dots 3-4, "ent" sufixes by dot 1-2-6, and so on, since that's actually how
> it is defined for paper document and not fiddle with the current braille
> table for the non translated case. Still I may wish to read compressed
> English text without having to change my own braille table for something I
> couldn't understand just because the braille compressor was defined with a
> particular braille table in mind.
>
>
> Nicolas
>
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> Blinux-list mailing list
> Blinux-list@redhat.com
> https://listman.redhat.com/mailman/listinfo/blinux-list
>
^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 26+ messages in thread
* Re: brltty and simultaneous grade 2 translation
` John J. Boyer
` Dave Mielke
@ ` Nicolas Pitre
1 sibling, 0 replies; 26+ messages in thread
From: Nicolas Pitre @ UTC (permalink / raw)
To: blinux-list
On Mon, 26 Nov 2001, John J. Boyer wrote:
> Dave,
> This all sounds fine to me. Now about the format of the translation table.
> Since we want to accomodate many languages, I think it would be best to put
> each rule on a line by itself and to use a simple space between the parts of
> the rule. As I see it, each rule would consist of a source string, a space,
> the destination string, space, and a number that specifies whether the
> source string is a whole word, should be translated only if it is in the
> middle of a word, etc. If either the source or destination string includes a
> space, we can arrange for an escape sequence. This would be necessary no
> matter what separation character we used.
First, let me tell you that English braille has a _much_ simpler ruleset
when it comes to abreviate it than say French. In French the rules are much
more convoluted and complex than a simple pattern replacement.
Therefore I suggest having a look at already existing braille
conversion packages and see if those can be used instead of duplicating
work. For one I think nfbtrans might do the job and could be GPL already.
Nicolas
^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 26+ messages in thread
* Re: brltty and simultaneous grade 2 translation
` Dave Mielke
` John J. Boyer
@ ` Bill Gaughan
` John J. Boyer
` (2 more replies)
` Nicolas Pitre
2 siblings, 3 replies; 26+ messages in thread
From: Bill Gaughan @ UTC (permalink / raw)
To: blinux-list
When how would you accommodate continuous grade two reading of text on a
braille display? I am assuming that if the reader advances the display to
the next text area (40 or 80 characters) then you would get computer
braille again and then have to toggle or switch to grade two braille.
Q. How does the brltty buffer get filled? Say, every time you hit next
page or previous page in pine or hit spacebar in lynx, does it reinit the
buffer and refill it with new text? all I know is that in spb.exe and
jaws, once you toggle grade two braille on, it remains on, until you turn
it off regardless of what you do from the computer keyboard that effect
the cursor or mouse pointer. text always continues to go to the display as
grade two until you turn it off.
--
Bill Gaughan
wgaughan@snet.net
On Mon, 26 Nov 2001, Dave Mielke wrote:
> [quoted lines by John J. Boyer on November 26, 2001, at 08:49]
>
> Hi:
>
> >The Grade 2 translation should be on-the-fly and should affect only as much
> >information as will fit on the display.
>
> BRLTTY, of course, would have no way of knowing how much translated data will
> fit within the braille window. It, therefore, would have to pass in the whole
> rest of the line starting at the position where the left end of the braille
> window is.
>
> What about the case where the left end of the braille window starts in the
> middle of a contraction? This shouldn't happen when already in grade 2 mode,
> but might happen when switching into grade 2 mode. I guess it should just leave
> that little bit at the beginning uncontracted.
>
> There's also the possibility that the end of what'll fit within the braille
> window won't fit. Should it show the beginning of the contraction/symbol, or
> leave the end of the window blank?
>
> >Translating the whole screen at once
> >would probably be a bad idea.
>
> I agree, even if simply because it may be a lot of useless work since the
> screen might change by the time te reader gets there.
>
> >One way the Grade 2 translator could work
> >would be to pass it the place where the translation is to begin. It will
> >then translate as much as will fit on the display and pass back the place
> >where it ended.
>
> I think it'd have to be screen unaware. I'd like to be able to pass in a
> character string, which would end up being the rest of the current line from
> the place where the braille window starts. To make cut&paste work correctly,
> I'd want back the offset into the input string of each character in the output
> string.
>
> >The translation tables should be provided in a form that is easily edited,
> >so that users can make changes and write tables for new languages. A table
> >compiler would probably be advisable to preprocess the tables before they
> >are actually used in translation.
>
> Yes, that'd be a good way to design it. Hopefully the table would be general
> enough to support languages other than English.
>
> >A keystroke on the Braille display can toggle between Grade 2 and the
> >present display mode.
>
> Agreed.
>
> >The table can be "compiled" when BRLTTY starts, or even recompiled
> >on-the-fly with a special keystroke.
>
> Bewtter yet might be to check the timestamp on the table, and recompile if it
> changes.
>
> >We can do better than Jaws, which doesn't have user-accessible tables.
>
> Of course!
>
>
^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 26+ messages in thread* Re: brltty and simultaneous grade 2 translation
` Bill Gaughan
@ ` John J. Boyer
` Bill Gaughan
` Nicolas Pitre
` Dave Mielke
2 siblings, 1 reply; 26+ messages in thread
From: John J. Boyer @ UTC (permalink / raw)
To: blinux-list
Bill,
I am pretty sure that Jaws also just translates enough to fill the Braille
display. I use Jaws also, and that's my deduction from the way it behaves
and my knowledge of programming.
John
Computers to Help People, Inc.
http://www.chpi.org
825 East Johnson; Madison, WI 53703
----- Original Message -----
From: "Bill Gaughan" <wgaughan@snet.net>
To: <blinux-list@redhat.com>
Sent: Monday, November 26, 2001 13:18
Subject: Re: brltty and simultaneous grade 2 translation
> When how would you accommodate continuous grade two reading of text on a
> braille display? I am assuming that if the reader advances the display to
> the next text area (40 or 80 characters) then you would get computer
> braille again and then have to toggle or switch to grade two braille.
>
> Q. How does the brltty buffer get filled? Say, every time you hit next
> page or previous page in pine or hit spacebar in lynx, does it reinit the
> buffer and refill it with new text? all I know is that in spb.exe and
> jaws, once you toggle grade two braille on, it remains on, until you turn
> it off regardless of what you do from the computer keyboard that effect
> the cursor or mouse pointer. text always continues to go to the display as
> grade two until you turn it off.
>
>
> --
> Bill Gaughan
> wgaughan@snet.net
>
>
> On Mon, 26 Nov 2001, Dave Mielke wrote:
>
> > [quoted lines by John J. Boyer on November 26, 2001, at 08:49]
> >
> > Hi:
> >
> > >The Grade 2 translation should be on-the-fly and should affect only as
much
> > >information as will fit on the display.
> >
> > BRLTTY, of course, would have no way of knowing how much translated data
will
> > fit within the braille window. It, therefore, would have to pass in the
whole
> > rest of the line starting at the position where the left end of the
braille
> > window is.
> >
> > What about the case where the left end of the braille window starts in
the
> > middle of a contraction? This shouldn't happen when already in grade 2
mode,
> > but might happen when switching into grade 2 mode. I guess it should
just leave
> > that little bit at the beginning uncontracted.
> >
> > There's also the possibility that the end of what'll fit within the
braille
> > window won't fit. Should it show the beginning of the
contraction/symbol, or
> > leave the end of the window blank?
> >
> > >Translating the whole screen at once
> > >would probably be a bad idea.
> >
> > I agree, even if simply because it may be a lot of useless work since
the
> > screen might change by the time te reader gets there.
> >
> > >One way the Grade 2 translator could work
> > >would be to pass it the place where the translation is to begin. It
will
> > >then translate as much as will fit on the display and pass back the
place
> > >where it ended.
> >
> > I think it'd have to be screen unaware. I'd like to be able to pass in a
> > character string, which would end up being the rest of the current line
from
> > the place where the braille window starts. To make cut&paste work
correctly,
> > I'd want back the offset into the input string of each character in the
output
> > string.
> >
> > >The translation tables should be provided in a form that is easily
edited,
> > >so that users can make changes and write tables for new languages. A
table
> > >compiler would probably be advisable to preprocess the tables before
they
> > >are actually used in translation.
> >
> > Yes, that'd be a good way to design it. Hopefully the table would be
general
> > enough to support languages other than English.
> >
> > >A keystroke on the Braille display can toggle between Grade 2 and the
> > >present display mode.
> >
> > Agreed.
> >
> > >The table can be "compiled" when BRLTTY starts, or even recompiled
> > >on-the-fly with a special keystroke.
> >
> > Bewtter yet might be to check the timestamp on the table, and recompile
if it
> > changes.
> >
> > >We can do better than Jaws, which doesn't have user-accessible tables.
> >
> > Of course!
> >
> >
>
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> Blinux-list mailing list
> Blinux-list@redhat.com
> https://listman.redhat.com/mailman/listinfo/blinux-list
>
^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 26+ messages in thread* Re: brltty and simultaneous grade 2 translation
` John J. Boyer
@ ` Bill Gaughan
` John J. Boyer
0 siblings, 1 reply; 26+ messages in thread
From: Bill Gaughan @ UTC (permalink / raw)
To: blinux-list
Sounds good to me, guys. John and Dave seem to be the expert
programmers in this area. I am sure glad I started a discussion on
this topic. I can see that it is a familiar topic that has been
discussed before. Any time you guys want me to pre-beta test sample code,
let me know. I have a PowerBraille 40.
--
Bill Gaughan
wgaughan@snet.net
^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 26+ messages in thread* Re: brltty and simultaneous grade 2 translation
` Bill Gaughan
@ ` John J. Boyer
0 siblings, 0 replies; 26+ messages in thread
From: John J. Boyer @ UTC (permalink / raw)
To: blinux-list
Bill,
I'm working on the translation algorithm and hope to start coding soon. I'll
keep you in mind for a Beta Tester.
What Linux distribution are you using? I'm still having trouble with my
Redhat 7.1 installation. After a while the Braille display begins to behave
strangely. It's not a brltty problem but due to something in my system.
Thanks.
John
Computers to Help People, Inc.
http://www.chpi.org
825 East Johnson; Madison, WI 53703
----- Original Message -----
From: "Bill Gaughan" <wgaughan@snet.net>
To: <blinux-list@redhat.com>
Sent: Tuesday, November 27, 2001 17:06
Subject: Re: brltty and simultaneous grade 2 translation
>
> Sounds good to me, guys. John and Dave seem to be the expert
> programmers in this area. I am sure glad I started a discussion on
> this topic. I can see that it is a familiar topic that has been
> discussed before. Any time you guys want me to pre-beta test sample code,
> let me know. I have a PowerBraille 40.
>
>
> --
> Bill Gaughan
> wgaughan@snet.net
>
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> Blinux-list mailing list
> Blinux-list@redhat.com
> https://listman.redhat.com/mailman/listinfo/blinux-list
>
^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 26+ messages in thread
* Re: brltty and simultaneous grade 2 translation
` Bill Gaughan
` John J. Boyer
@ ` Nicolas Pitre
` John J. Boyer
` Dave Mielke
2 siblings, 1 reply; 26+ messages in thread
From: Nicolas Pitre @ UTC (permalink / raw)
To: blinux-list
On Mon, 26 Nov 2001, Bill Gaughan wrote:
> Q. How does the brltty buffer get filled? Say, every time you hit next
> page or previous page in pine or hit spacebar in lynx, does it reinit the
> buffer and refill it with new text? all I know is that in spb.exe and
> jaws, once you toggle grade two braille on, it remains on, until you turn
> it off regardless of what you do from the computer keyboard that effect
> the cursor or mouse pointer. text always continues to go to the display as
> grade two until you turn it off.
We certainly can do better i.e. translating in real time as you type in a
test editor for example. The translation is redone upon each new character
possibly matching new contractions.
Nicolas
^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 26+ messages in thread* Re: brltty and simultaneous grade 2 translation
` Nicolas Pitre
@ ` John J. Boyer
0 siblings, 0 replies; 26+ messages in thread
From: John J. Boyer @ UTC (permalink / raw)
To: blinux-list
Nicolas,
Right. I would certainly like to see real-time translation as one types.
Jaws can do that, and we don't want to be beat by a Windows program!
John
Computers to Help People, Inc.
http://www.chpi.org
825 East Johnson; Madison, WI 53703
----- Original Message -----
From: "Nicolas Pitre" <nico@cam.org>
To: <blinux-list@redhat.com>
Sent: Monday, November 26, 2001 14:08
Subject: Re: brltty and simultaneous grade 2 translation
> On Mon, 26 Nov 2001, Bill Gaughan wrote:
>
> > Q. How does the brltty buffer get filled? Say, every time you hit next
> > page or previous page in pine or hit spacebar in lynx, does it reinit
the
> > buffer and refill it with new text? all I know is that in spb.exe and
> > jaws, once you toggle grade two braille on, it remains on, until you
turn
> > it off regardless of what you do from the computer keyboard that effect
> > the cursor or mouse pointer. text always continues to go to the display
as
> > grade two until you turn it off.
>
> We certainly can do better i.e. translating in real time as you type in a
> test editor for example. The translation is redone upon each new
character
> possibly matching new contractions.
>
>
> Nicolas
>
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> Blinux-list mailing list
> Blinux-list@redhat.com
> https://listman.redhat.com/mailman/listinfo/blinux-list
>
^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 26+ messages in thread
* Re: brltty and simultaneous grade 2 translation
` Bill Gaughan
` John J. Boyer
` Nicolas Pitre
@ ` Dave Mielke
2 siblings, 0 replies; 26+ messages in thread
From: Dave Mielke @ UTC (permalink / raw)
To: blinux-list
[quoted lines by Bill Gaughan on November 26, 2001, at 13:18]
>When how would you accommodate continuous grade two reading of text on a
>braille display? I am assuming that if the reader advances the display to
>the next text area (40 or 80 characters) then you would get computer
>braille again and then have to toggle or switch to grade two braille.
No. We'd stay in grade 2 mode, and translate each time the content of the
braille window changes.
--
Dave Mielke | 2213 Fox Crescent | I believe that the Bible is the
Phone: 1-613-726-0014 | Ottawa, Ontario | Word of God. Please contact me
EMail: dave@mielke.cc | Canada K2A 1H7 | if you're concerned about Hell.
^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 26+ messages in thread
* Re: brltty and simultaneous grade 2 translation
` Dave Mielke
` John J. Boyer
` Bill Gaughan
@ ` Nicolas Pitre
2 siblings, 0 replies; 26+ messages in thread
From: Nicolas Pitre @ UTC (permalink / raw)
To: blinux-list
On Mon, 26 Nov 2001, Dave Mielke wrote:
> BRLTTY, of course, would have no way of knowing how much translated data will
> fit within the braille window.
Well... it's certainly possible to loop submitting the original buffer
containing the whole screen line and
shrinking it word by word until the translated data fits on the display.
Nicolas
^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 26+ messages in thread
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