woody root.bin

woody root.bin

[Boris DAIX]

Hi all,

   I'd like to build a root.bin image for getting hand on
floppy-install for Debian GNU/Linux Woody. I've download images, but
as I'm not yet really familiar with this stuff, I ask for tips if
someone has any... I'll copy rescue.bin taken from "current" images,
and would like to add the brltty executable compiled as described on
the advanced topics field from brltty on-line documentation. I need
3c59x driver too, but I'll probably burn an iso on CD/R-W (I can't
boot from CD).

   So, the question may have already been asked (I didn't find
anything about it), but can someone help me build this image upon
current version ?

Thanks a lot

Re: woody root.bin

[Mario Lang]

Boris DAIX <Boris.Daix@insa-lyon.fr> writes:

> Hi all,
>
>    I'd like to build a root.bin image for getting hand on
> floppy-install for Debian GNU/Linux Woody.

We just tired that, and I'm afraid it just doesnt fit onto the root.bin.

But if you dont mind using three disks, I developed
a method to load brltty from a separate disk.
Check ftp://ftp.tugraz.at/incoming/debian
for the files I just sent over to kajarii for first time
real-world testing.  I tested the procedure in theory
(without having a brailledisplay connect) and it worked.

The whole idea is that we load brltty via tar
from a disk directly.  The only modification
I made to root.bin is essentially editing /etc/init.d/rcS and 
inserting

echo "Please insert BRLTTY disk and press ENTER"
read ret 1 </dev/console
cd /
tar xf /dev/fd0
/sbin/brltty



So, read the file INSTALL in the ftp directory,
and try it.  Please tell me if that worked for you, and if
it is a useable solution at all.


-- 
CYa,
  Mario

Re: woody root.bin

[Boris DAIX]

Mario Lang <mlang@teleweb.at> writes:

> Boris DAIX <Boris.Daix@insa-lyon.fr> writes:
>
>> Hi all,
>>
>>    I'd like to build a root.bin image for getting hand on
>> floppy-install for Debian GNU/Linux Woody.
>
> We just tired that, and I'm afraid it just doesnt fit onto the root.bin.
>
> But if you dont mind using three disks, I developed
> a method to load brltty from a separate disk.

Where do the /etc/brltty stuff goes ?

> Check ftp://ftp.tugraz.at/incoming/debian
> for the files I just sent over to kajarii for first time
> real-world testing.  I tested the procedure in theory
> (without having a brailledisplay connect) and it worked.

I would try it as soon as possible :-) I have two debian testing dists
to install by yesterday... I wait for your erratum on url given.

> The whole idea is that we load brltty via tar
> from a disk directly.  The only modification
> I made to root.bin is essentially editing /etc/init.d/rcS and 
> inserting
>
> echo "Please insert BRLTTY disk and press ENTER"
> read ret 1 </dev/console
> cd /
> tar xf /dev/fd0
> /sbin/brltty

Very, very interesting !

> So, read the file INSTALL in the ftp directory,
> and try it.  Please tell me if that worked for you, and if
> it is a useable solution at all.

I'll do report when I'd have tried it. But how do you modify the
root.bin ? 'cause I can't take over mounting it, and source package
boot-floppies can't compile (libs needed conflict each other...) ?

Thank you a lot

> -- 
> CYa,
>   Mario

Boris Daix

Re: woody root.bin

[Andor Demarteau]

while this method no doubt works (I'll have a look at it, seems
interesting enough).
I'd advice against using woody for first-install just yet.
It still is in the testing-stage.
I have successfully installed debian via brltty-enabled root.bin on 2
floppies using the potato distro.
Be sure to note that the default root.bin is a compressed ext2-filesystem.

It may seem that the woody-root.bin has more data in it then the
potato-version.
If this is not the case (you have to unpack and mount both via loopback to
check that), then brltty will certainly fit inside it.
Note that make install directly to the image will NOT work.
Best is to install a staticly-linked brltty on yoru system and use
install-brltty script.
If this is not possible, copy the files by hand ;) to /sbin /lib/brltty
and /etc/brltty (creat the last 2 dirs by hand as well) and don't forget
to creaqte /dev/vcsa0 ;)
then edit /etc/init.d/rcS to include /sbin/brltty

now, are the files you load from the 3rd disk loaded into memory (ramdisk)
or directly executed from the floppy?
In the last case you will run into trouble if you need to insert the
rescue-disk for installing the kernel and stuff.
also note that you'd better create /dev/vcsa0 on the root.bin itself
already.

-- 
slainte mhaith (good health), slainte (cheers)
Uisce Beatha (water of live/health)
-----------
Andor Demarteau                 E-mail: ademarte@students.cs.uu.nl
student computer science        www: http://www.students.cs.uu.nl/~ademarte/
Utrecht University              irc: see webpage for details
-----------
Believe in yourself, know what you want, and make it happen!

Re: woody root.bin

[Boris DAIX]

Andor Demarteau <ademarte@students.cs.uu.nl> writes:

> while this method no doubt works (I'll have a look at it, seems
> interesting enough).
> I'd advice against using woody for first-install just yet.

I've done it many times (with help for interactive stuff) and hadn't
any trouble. Better, I was wondering about installing the "unstable"
version, but it implies more risks doesn't it ?

> It still is in the testing-stage.
> I have successfully installed debian via brltty-enabled root.bin on 2
> floppies using the potato distro.
> Be sure to note that the default root.bin is a compressed ext2-filesystem.
>
> It may seem that the woody-root.bin has more data in it then the
> potato-version.

Sure : in woody floppies, there is support for choosing language
(among other things)

> If this is not the case (you have to unpack and mount both via loopback to
> check that), then brltty will certainly fit inside it.

How to "unpack" ? Because the .bin files don't seam to be mountable
via loopback (I tried but autofs wasn't enoubh to find what fs it was)

> Note that make install directly to the image will NOT work.

That's my problem :-) (main one)

> Best is to install a staticly-linked brltty on yoru system and use
> install-brltty script.
> If this is not possible, copy the files by hand ;) to /sbin /lib/brltty
> and /etc/brltty (creat the last 2 dirs by hand as well) and don't forget
> to creaqte /dev/vcsa0 ;)

So, I do this on mounted floppies, don't I ?

> then edit /etc/init.d/rcS to include /sbin/brltty

the same ?

> now, are the files you load from the 3rd disk loaded into memory (ramdisk)
> or directly executed from the floppy?
> In the last case you will run into trouble if you need to insert the
> rescue-disk for installing the kernel and stuff.

The first thing seams better to me, but it is not the default - so how
would I do this (loading 3rd floppy stuff in ramdisk) ? Because I
don't need to give floppy for install except in the last steps where
you have to do a boot-floppy (I can't make lilo write to the MBR). But
it will ask for floppy during the whole process ? I mean, wouldn't the
brltty executable and config files be mounted in memory "normally"
(preventing from many I/O getting the system slower) ?

> also note that you'd better create /dev/vcsa0 on the root.bin itself
> already.

Ok : I'll create this everywhere :-)

> -- 
> slainte mhaith (good health), slainte (cheers)
> Uisce Beatha (water of live/health)
> -----------
> Andor Demarteau                 E-mail: ademarte@students.cs.uu.nl
> student computer science        www: http://www.students.cs.uu.nl/~ademarte/
> Utrecht University              irc: see webpage for details
> -----------
> Believe in yourself, know what you want, and make it happen!
>
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> Blinux-list mailing list
> Blinux-list@redhat.com
> https://listman.redhat.com/mailman/listinfo/blinux-list

Thank you

regards,

Boris

Re: woody root.bin

[Mario Lang]

Andor Demarteau <ademarte@students.cs.uu.nl> writes:

> now, are the files you load from the 3rd disk loaded into memory (ramdisk)
> or directly executed from the floppy?
They are simply loaded into the existing ramdisk which is used for /.

tar xf /dev/fd0


-- 
CYa,
  Mario

Re: woody root.bin

[Mario Lang]

Boris DAIX <Boris.Daix@insa-lyon.fr> writes:

> Mario Lang <mlang@teleweb.at> writes:
>
>> Check ftp://ftp.tugraz.at/incoming/debian
>> for the files I just sent over to kajarii for first time
>> real-world testing.  I tested the procedure in theory
>> (without having a brailledisplay connect) and it worked.
>
> I would try it as soon as possible :-) I have two debian testing dists
> to install by yesterday... I wait for your erratum on url given.
OK, first I have to say, the version there (brltty.tar) does not
work. We forgot that we needed to link brltty statically.

>> The whole idea is that we load brltty via tar
>> from a disk directly.  The only modification
>> I made to root.bin is essentially editing /etc/init.d/rcS and 
>> inserting
>>
>> echo "Please insert BRLTTY disk and press ENTER"
>> read ret 1 </dev/console
>> cd /
>> tar xf /dev/fd0
>> /sbin/brltty
>
> Very, very interesting !
>
OK, here goes the story:

To build such a third brltty disk, simply create a directory
tree which looks like a root of a filesystem, something like

etc/brltty
etc
lib/brltty
sbin

Now, put all the brltty files you want/need there, there are actually
some ways to do it.  Either precompile the text.table and device
name and driver type into one static brltty, then you just need
sbin/brltty.

If you still want it to dynload different drivers, just do that,
but dont forget to compile brltty statically, and put a
etc/brltty.conf
in your dummy directory.

Now if everything is there, just tar that up:

tar c * >../brlttydisk.tar

You now write this tar directly to a normal floppy disk, either using
dd or cat, both work:
dd if=../brlttydisk.tar of=/dev/fd0
or
cat ../brlttydisk.tar >/dev/fd0

Now you just need the modified woody-root.bin from ftp://ftp.tugraz.at/incoming/debian.


>> So, read the file INSTALL in the ftp directory,
>> and try it.  Please tell me if that worked for you, and if
>> it is a useable solution at all.
>
> I'll do report when I'd have tried it. But how do you modify the
> root.bin ? 'cause I can't take over mounting it, and source package
> boot-floppies can't compile (libs needed conflict each other...) ?

Here the second story:

To modify root.bin, you need to unzip it:

mv root.bin root.bin.gz
gunzip root.bin.gz
mount root.bin /mnt -o loop

Now you are ready, only thing I did was to insert
the lines I posted into
etc/init.d/rcS

Just after proc gets mounted should be ok.

now, dont forget to umount and gzip again :)

cd /
umount /mnt
gzip root.bin



This is only a rough email to get the info across to interested people,
as soon as I find more time I will put that together in a readme and on
a web site.  The right time for the (hopefully soon) coming woody
release :-)

>
> Thank you a lot

-- 
CYa,
  Mario

Re: woody root.bin

[Boris DAIX]

Mario Lang <mlang@teleweb.at> writes:

> Boris DAIX <Boris.Daix@insa-lyon.fr> writes:
>
>> Mario Lang <mlang@teleweb.at> writes:
>>
>>> Check ftp://ftp.tugraz.at/incoming/debian
>>> for the files I just sent over to kajarii for first time
>>> real-world testing.  I tested the procedure in theory
>>> (without having a brailledisplay connect) and it worked.
>>
>> I would try it as soon as possible :-) I have two debian testing dists
>> to install by yesterday... I wait for your erratum on url given.
> OK, first I have to say, the version there (brltty.tar) does not
> work. We forgot that we needed to link brltty statically.

:-)

>>> The whole idea is that we load brltty via tar
>>> from a disk directly.  The only modification
>>> I made to root.bin is essentially editing /etc/init.d/rcS and 
>>> inserting
>>>
>>> echo "Please insert BRLTTY disk and press ENTER"
>>> read ret 1 </dev/console
>>> cd /
>>> tar xf /dev/fd0
>>> /sbin/brltty
>>
>> Very, very interesting !
>>
> OK, here goes the story:
>
> To build such a third brltty disk, simply create a directory
> tree which looks like a root of a filesystem, something like
>
> etc/brltty
> etc
> lib/brltty
> sbin
>
> Now, put all the brltty files you want/need there, there are actually
> some ways to do it.  Either precompile the text.table and device
> name and driver type into one static brltty, then you just need
> sbin/brltty.
>
> If you still want it to dynload different drivers, just do that,
> but dont forget to compile brltty statically, and put a
> etc/brltty.conf
> in your dummy directory.
>
> Now if everything is there, just tar that up:
>
> tar c * >../brlttydisk.tar
>
> You now write this tar directly to a normal floppy disk, either using
> dd or cat, both work:
> dd if=../brlttydisk.tar of=/dev/fd0
> or
> cat ../brlttydisk.tar >/dev/fd0
>
> Now you just need the modified woody-root.bin from ftp://ftp.tugraz.at/incoming/debian.

Ok, I did it :-)

>>> So, read the file INSTALL in the ftp directory,
>>> and try it.  Please tell me if that worked for you, and if
>>> it is a useable solution at all.
>>
>> I'll do report when I'd have tried it. But how do you modify the
>> root.bin ? 'cause I can't take over mounting it, and source package
>> boot-floppies can't compile (libs needed conflict each other...) ?
>
> Here the second story:
>
> To modify root.bin, you need to unzip it:
>
> mv root.bin root.bin.gz
> gunzip root.bin.gz
> mount root.bin /mnt -o loop

Okay... Sorry ;-) But i didn't know this tip :-)) That makes me
laugh... 

>
> Now you are ready, only thing I did was to insert
> the lines I posted into
> etc/init.d/rcS
>
> Just after proc gets mounted should be ok.
>
> now, dont forget to umount and gzip again :)
>
> cd /
> umount /mnt
> gzip root.bin

I think this is a really good method as it is really "standard". But
before congratulating, I will try :-) after my pizza...

> This is only a rough email to get the info across to interested people,
> as soon as I find more time I will put that together in a readme and on
> a web site.  The right time for the (hopefully soon) coming woody
> release :-)

If you need help, ask and I'll probably there.

>> Thank you a lot
>
> -- 
> CYa,
>   Mario

Boris

Re: woody root.bin

[Cheryl Homiak]

Hey, just now reading this thread and haven't tried it, but looks like an
excellent idea to me if it works.
i had tried modifying the woody root.bin by unzipping and mounting it and adding
the necessary files, including a statically linked brltty executable. However,
the resulting root.bin was too large, even though I had had success doing it
with potato's root.bin. Using the procedure of the brltty disk, if this works,
would stop all the bother each time a new root.bin comes out of trying to modify
it and hoping everything will fit or trying to decide what to remove. As it will
allways be possible to make the simple modification to root.bin described
without significantly increasing the size, this could be a long-term solution
instead of just a fix for doing it with woody.
Thanks.
A couple of comments on things people have written.
I know this has already been said, but i saw another question on it,
so--remember that you have to mv root.bin to root.gz and use gunzip to unzip it;
then you will find that you can mount it.
Secondly, it isn't necessary to actually install a statically linked brltty on
your system. You would just compile so it is statically linked and then transfer
the brltty executable and whatever other files you need/want. In this case, of
course you wouldn't use the install-brltty script because it will install your
/sbin/brltty (no doubt dynamically linked) instead of the brltty executable you
have created. This way you aren't changing the setup on your system in any way,
just creating what you need either to put on the root.bin or put in the brltty
disk.


as for woody, it is my impression from the debian lists that lots of
people are installing it directly rather than upgrading to it. I believe
it is mainly some security-related issues that have delayed woody's
release, but it shouldn't be a problem to install it.
As for SID, personally I would hold off a bit. I am now running SID
because I thought SID would become the testing version when woody was
released and woody was frozen so I wanted to continue upgrading. However,
apparently it isn't that straightforward. If I understood the discussion
of this on debian lists correctly, not all of the present unstable will
become testing/SID; some packages will remain in unstable while others
will form the new testing. so I'd advise you to wait until woody releases
and the smoke clears before trying a raw install either to the new testing
or unstable, but hey, if you don't mind some risk and your backups are
good enough to get you out of trouble, go for it!

Cheryl

Re: woody root.bin

[Boris DAIX]

Cheryl Homiak <chomiak@chartermi.net> writes:

> Hey, just now reading this thread and haven't tried it, but looks like an
> excellent idea to me if it works.

And... Yes, it does work !!!

There are errors in kernel modules loading but I don't think it is
because of the modification. So I will go on again tomorrow (here is
time to sleep) to see why I get those errors, I may try with
completely standard floppies to compare error messages, with someone
helping. But I could read the welcome message (curses based), and so on.

> i had tried modifying the woody root.bin by unzipping and mounting it and adding
> the necessary files, including a statically linked brltty executable. However,
> the resulting root.bin was too large, even though I had had success doing it
> with potato's root.bin. Using the procedure of the brltty disk, if this works,
> would stop all the bother each time a new root.bin comes out of trying to modify
> it and hoping everything will fit or trying to decide what to remove. As it will
> allways be possible to make the simple modification to root.bin described
> without significantly increasing the size, this could be a long-term solution
> instead of just a fix for doing it with woody.
> Thanks.
> A couple of comments on things people have written.
> I know this has already been said, but i saw another question on it,
> so--remember that you have to mv root.bin to root.gz and use gunzip to unzip it;
> then you will find that you can mount it.
> Secondly, it isn't necessary to actually install a statically linked brltty on
> your system. You would just compile so it is statically linked and then transfer
> the brltty executable and whatever other files you need/want. In this case, of
> course you wouldn't use the install-brltty script because it will install your
> /sbin/brltty (no doubt dynamically linked) instead of the brltty executable you
> have created. This way you aren't changing the setup on your system in any way,
> just creating what you need either to put on the root.bin or put in the brltty
> disk.
>
>
> as for woody, it is my impression from the debian lists that lots of
> people are installing it directly rather than upgrading to it. I believe
> it is mainly some security-related issues that have delayed woody's
> release, but it shouldn't be a problem to install it.
> As for SID, personally I would hold off a bit. I am now running SID
> because I thought SID would become the testing version when woody was
> released and woody was frozen so I wanted to continue upgrading. However,
> apparently it isn't that straightforward. If I understood the discussion
> of this on debian lists correctly, not all of the present unstable will
> become testing/SID; some packages will remain in unstable while others
> will form the new testing. so I'd advise you to wait until woody releases
> and the smoke clears before trying a raw install either to the new testing
> or unstable, but hey, if you don't mind some risk and your backups are
> good enough to get you out of trouble, go for it!

I think so. The last thing to check would be to see how
"debian-installer" would replace all those accessibility troubles
during install, 'cause I've been told on debian-boot that hacking
floppies won't help anymore when this brand-new installer would be
born. Let's wait...

Another thing to take care would be to post-process a script that
would enable, from hard drive, the brltty execution. Because when you
finished configuring base-system (if I remember), you have to reboot
to install all remaining stuff, and you have to make a lilo/boot
floppy to completely restart the computer. So here is the last thing
to fix. But like we have a complete floppy to put our things in, we
should find a place to write an "install script"... May be the
install-brltty would match (I never used it, using make install
instead) ?

>
> Cheryl
>
>

All I can say for now is "good night", tomorrow would be easier for me
- so thank you Mario !!

Boris

Re: woody root.bin

[Cheryl Homiak]

Ok, just made my own brlttydisk.tar and used the rescue disk for woody from the
debian ftp and the modified woody-root.bin. I don't want to reinstall at this
point, so I only went through the preliminaries. Brltty starts up fine; I have
no way of knowing if there are any errors but it seems to start up fine.
Some comments:
1. It would appear from the Bootdisks/README that comes with the source that you
do have to choose a driver when compiling statically. refer to this README for
further clarification of this. This would mean you couldn't have one brltty.tar
for everybody, but would need individual ones for the various drivers. Perhaps
this has changed, but again, I don't see any indication of this in the README.
Howwever on the todo list is the following:

-Figure out how to use shared libraries from a statically linked
   executable, when the lib references symbols from the main
   program. With that we could do generic bootdisk with dynamic selection
   of braille driver.

2. remember that if /dev/vcsa0 is not present in the root.bin, it must either be
included in the modified root.bin or in the brlttydisk. It wasn't clear whether
or not this had been put on to the modified root.bin or was already present
there so I added it to the
brlttydisk.

3. I did my tar command for the brlttydisk as follows:
tar cvpf brlttydisk.tar *
I think using the "f" and the filename is actually the proper way to use tar
rather than using a 'greater than" sign, though I imagine that works too.

4. It
isn't necessary to include a /lib/brltty directory or /etc/brltty.conf if you
include what you need in the compilation (see bootdisk/README. I don't know
whether this would change when static linking can be done with all drivers
compiled in.
5. If you want to copy a rudimentary brltty onto your new system until you can
install a full brltty on it, you can go into the other console and copy over the
necessary files onto the new system (target, I believe) and, if you want brltty
to come up when the new system boots, edit the desired file or add a brltty.sh
to /etc/init.d and make a symlink within /etc/rcS.d. Either way will work.

6. Don't forget that if you are going to do a woody install, you need a modified
root.bin, your brltty disk, and the debian rescue.bin and 4 driver.bins. Base
floppies are no longer needed.

7. I had one report from a person who tried to do a cold woody install and had
problems when it came time to install packages. However, I am hearing from the
debian lists that people are installing successfully, so I can't tell you what
is going on there.

8. Per the comment that was made re: the new installer system coming down the
pike where hacking bootdisks may not be of help, those of us involved in debian
might want to get some  fingers in that pie so that brltty users don't get
locked
out of being able to install debian with brltty in the future. It's too easy to
get left in the position of complaining after the fact about something that
might have been forseen and dealt with before the fact.

Cheryl

Re: woody root.bin: update on installation attempt

[Cheryl Homiak]

I just got a report from the person who had difficulty installing woody. He has
now installed successfully. It was human error most likely--boy, we could all
write books about that!!!

Cheryl

Re: woody root.bin

[Mario Lang]

Cheryl Homiak <chomiak@chartermi.net> writes:

> 3. I did my tar command for the brlttydisk as follows:
> tar cvpf brlttydisk.tar *
> I think using the "f" and the filename is actually the proper way to use tar
> rather than using a 'greater than" sign, though I imagine that works too.

redirection works the same as the f argument works, its really just a
matter of taste.

well, maybe if you use eshell, or some other strangely implemented
shell variant, but ash shouldn't present a performance problem I think.

> 8. Per the comment that was made re: the new installer system coming down the
> pike where hacking bootdisks may not be of help, those of us involved in debian
> might want to get some  fingers in that pie so that brltty users don't get
> locked
> out of being able to install debian with brltty in the future. It's too easy to
> get left in the position of complaining after the fact about something that
> might have been forseen and dealt with before the fact.

I successfully built the debian-installer floppies already.
They are far from usable for installation right now, but I'm
slowly progressing... As soon as I have something useable/testable in
this direction, I'll tell.


-- 
CYa,
  Mario

Re: woody root.bin

[Nath]

Hi Mario,

I'm interrested in trying/using your method to load BRLTTY for debian
bootdisk but the url you indicate seems to be bad. can you verify please ?
Thanks in advance,

--
Nath

*********** REPLY SEPARATOR  ***********

On 04/07/02 at 14:39  wrote:

>In-Reply-To: <878z4z785e.fsf@Pulsar.resI.insa-lyon.fr> (Boris DAIX's
>message
> of "Fri, 28 Jun 2002 17:08:45 +0200")
>From: Mario Lang <mlang@teleweb.at>
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>Date: Thu, 04 Jul 2002 16:39:00 +0200
>
>Boris DAIX <Boris.Daix@insa-lyon.fr> writes:
>
>> Hi all,
>>
>>    I'd like to build a root.bin image for getting hand on
>> floppy-install for Debian GNU/Linux Woody.
>
>We just tired that, and I'm afraid it just doesnt fit onto the root.bin.
>
>But if you dont mind using three disks, I developed
>a method to load brltty from a separate disk.
>Check ftp://ftp.tugraz.at/incoming/debian
>for the files I just sent over to kajarii for first time
>real-world testing.  I tested the procedure in theory
>(without having a brailledisplay connect) and it worked.
>
>The whole idea is that we load brltty via tar
>from a disk directly.  The only modification
>I made to root.bin is essentially editing /etc/init.d/rcS and 
>inserting
>
>echo "Please insert BRLTTY disk and press ENTER"
>read ret 1 </dev/console
>cd /
>tar xf /dev/fd0
>/sbin/brltty
>
>
>
>So, read the file INSTALL in the ftp directory,
>and try it.  Please tell me if that worked for you, and if
>it is a useable solution at all.
>
>
>-- 
>CYa,
>  Mario
>
>
>
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