Booting Linux with No Video card

Booting Linux with No Video card

[Linux for blind general discussion]

I have a new computer whose board has no video. I heard you could still get linux to boot, anyway. Is there something I can edit on my debian USB stick to get it to work?

Re: Booting Linux with No Video card

[Linux for blind general discussion]

Linux for blind general discussion wrote 2018-12-05 21:21 UTC:
> I have a new computer whose board has no video. I heard you could
> still get linux to boot, anyway. Is there something I can edit on my
> debian USB stick to get it to work?
> 

It really depends on your computer firmware. If the firmware is 
satisfied booting without video capabilities you need to edit your boot 
loader configuration. I'm assuming debian's kernel is happy without 
video. Please note that most desktops have video on the same die (or 
chip) as the cpu just like pretty much everything else but RAM. So you 
might have embedded video...

Search in boot loader config file for kernel line where you need to 
state your console. E.g. add console=ttyS0 in the end. You find 
documentation in kernel documentation since it is kernel boot argument 
you are dealing with.

You need to have some console device in order to use your computer. What 
you hook to the console port is yet another story. I have only worked 
with teletype and visual terminals long time ago so can't help with 
braille terminal if that's what you plan to use.

/B

Re: Booting Linux with No Video card

[Linux for blind general discussion]

Linux for blind general discussion <blinux-list@redhat.com> wrote:
< Please note that most desktops have video on the same die (or 
> chip) as the cpu just like pretty much everything else but RAM.

This board has no onboard or integrated video at all. When I plugged in the stick no debian prompt came up, so I guess I'm stuck and must order a card.
Oh, well, I did try.
> 

Re: Booting Linux with No Video card

[Linux for blind general discussion]

Linux for blind general discussion wrote on 2018-12-06 22:37 UTC:
> Linux for blind general discussion <blinux-list@redhat.com> wrote:
> < Please note that most desktops have video on the same die (or
>> chip) as the cpu just like pretty much everything else but RAM.
> 
> This board has no onboard or integrated video at all. When I plugged
> in the stick no debian prompt came up, so I guess I'm stuck and must
> order a card.
> Oh, well, I did try.

Excuse my ignorance but where were you expecting the debian prompt?

I have a feeling you haven't provided enough information for anyone to 
help. Unfortunately it is quite normal on this list.

Please try to tell exactly what you are trying to accomplish with what 
exact hardware setup and scenario.
Else we are only guessing.

Example (with Kermit and Miss Piggy):

I have a Data General One laptop with 512KB RAM
75/1200 bps Hayes Modem connected to COM1:
I booted MS-DOS 2.31 for DG One on 3.5" A: drive
I then inserted a disk with Kermit version 1.2 on B: drive
I then started Kermit and configured it to use COM1: port
Kermit told it can't find the port.
Then I tried configuring Kermit for COM2:
Kermit told it can't find the port.

If I use the same Kermit version on my IBM PC XT with 640KB RAM, PC-DOS 
3.1 started from 10MB hard drive,
75/1200 bps Hayes Modem connected to COM1: everything just works.

What's wrong?

Regards,
Miss Piggy

Resolution:

Here we instantly know the exact hardware configuration of those two 
computers. You most likely need to tell more details on yours. Including 
how you interact with it.
DG One has different serial port hardware than IBM PC XT.
They are not register compatible.
Kermit reads and writes the registers directly, not via operating system 
interrupt.
Hence Kermit doesn't understand DG One's UART chip.
Miss Piggy either needs communications program written specifically for 
her DG One or such program which uses operating system interrupts. 
Unfortunately I cannot remember which one worked. It could be it was 
Kermit which worked and the other didn't.

Re: Booting Linux with No Video card

[Linux for blind general discussion]

Linux for blind general discussion <blinux-list@redhat.com> wrote:
> I have a feeling you haven't provided enough information for anyone to 
> help. Unfortunately it is quite normal on this list.
> 
> Please try to tell exactly what you are trying to accomplish with what 
> exact hardware setup and scenario.


Trying to install Debian on a new system. When I said, debian prompt, I was referring to the boot prompt observed when booting a USB stick or cd. This usually consists of the distribution name and optionally a prompt to type commands.
The board does not have integrated video, at all. When the USB stick is plugged in (or boot cd inserted), the computer just sits there, doing nothing.
Having observed similar behavior from another system, it was clear that video hardware is required. Immediately upon inserting a video card into the previous system, everything worked as normal.
The reason I wrote was because subsequent to my previous experience, I found out that Linux could be fooled into thinking there was video hardware present when, in fact, there isn't. I knew it could be fooled into thinking there was a monitor present, but someone informed me that linux also did not necessarily need video hardware either. Unfortunately, the evidence he gave confirmed my own information; that is, editing xorg.conf to use xorg-video-dummy-x86 or similar. This is way ahead of where I am, as there is no xorg yet and we are still at trying to boot a linux USB stick or cd.
I am using a braille display and, as previously stated, I saw no indication that the stick (or cd) had booted appear on the display. The computer just sat, humming to itself.
I went ahead and ordered a cheap video PCI card, but I was curious to know if Linux could be fooled into running without it. It appears, however, that it can't. At least, not here. It was a generic question (can linux do this?) and not necessarily hardware specific.

Re: Booting Linux with No Video card

[Linux for blind general discussion]

If you can use the braille display to enter text on the computer the
port on which the braille display lives would be your console.  If the
braille display cannot send commands to the computer or text, you have
two different ports and I don't know how that could be accommodated.

On Wed, 5 Dec 2018, Linux for blind general discussion wrote:

> Date: Wed, 5 Dec 2018 19:27:11
> From: Linux for blind general discussion <blinux-list@redhat.com>
> To: blinux-list@redhat.com
> Subject: Re: Booting Linux with No Video card
>
> Linux for blind general discussion <blinux-list@redhat.com> wrote:
> > I have a feeling you haven't provided enough information for anyone to
> > help. Unfortunately it is quite normal on this list.
> >
> > Please try to tell exactly what you are trying to accomplish with what
> > exact hardware setup and scenario.
>
>
> Trying to install Debian on a new system. When I said, debian prompt, I was referring to the boot prompt observed when booting a USB stick or cd. This usually consists of the distribution name and optionally a prompt to type commands.
> The board does not have integrated video, at all. When the USB stick is plugged in (or boot cd inserted), the computer just sits there, doing nothing.
> Having observed similar behavior from another system, it was clear that video hardware is required. Immediately upon inserting a video card into the previous system, everything worked as normal.
> The reason I wrote was because subsequent to my previous experience, I found out that Linux could be fooled into thinking there was video hardware present when, in fact, there isn't. I knew it could be fooled into thinking there was a monitor present, but someone informed me that linux also did not necessarily need video hardware either. Unfortunately, the evidence he gave confirmed my own information; that is, editing xorg.conf to use xorg-video-dummy-x86 or similar. This is way ahead of where I am, as there is no xorg yet and we are still at trying to boot a linux USB stick or cd.
> I am using a braille display and, as previously stated, I saw no indication that the stick (or cd) had booted appear on the display. The computer just sat, humming to itself.
> I went ahead and ordered a cheap video PCI card, but I was curious to know if Linux could be fooled into running without it. It appears, however, that it can't. At least, not here. It was a generic question (can linux do this?) and not necessarily hardware specific.
>
> _______________________________________________
> Blinux-list mailing list
> Blinux-list@redhat.com
> https://www.redhat.com/mailman/listinfo/blinux-list
>

-- 

Re: Booting Linux with No Video card

[Linux for blind general discussion]

Ok, generic answer:

1) Linux is able to boot without video hardware. Many WiFi base stations run Linux. They have no video hardware at all.
Server systems might not have video hardware which could be connected to a monitor. It could be they have no video hardware.
2) You do not fool Linux into thinking there is video hardware.
3) You need to tell where your console is connected and which parameters it uses (speed, parity, stop).
4) Boot prompt is not necessarily Linux, usually it is your boot loader which quite often is called grub (on PCs).
5) I am not aware whether grub connects to serial ports.
6) It might be your motherboard requires VGA or whatever video card and conventional keyboard in order to set up the firmware so that it is able to boot without that hardware. It might be the firmware plain refuses to boot your system without video card and/or keyboard. This is not Linux specific. It is dependent on motherboard firmware (BIOS, UEFI,  whatever). Usually only PC server systems boot without video cards. Even then they have console which could be connected over serial line. You can then configure that server firmware using your text console.

Honestly, I have a feeling you are trying to accomplish something that your hardware might not be able to do out of the box. These days computers are so cheap that personally I wouldn't start experimenting with unknown brand motherboards at all. The last system I built was an Intel NUC which is known to work well with Linux. You, your partner, friend or shop assistant adds RAM and SSD. Then you boot the system. It just works and costs you a few hundred.

I know tinkering with computers is fun. I have tinkered with different computer and processor architectures in the past. I have built systems from scratch but I don't do it any more. I feel it just isn't worth the hassle. That's my personal view. Yours might be different and I'm fine with that.

I like the machines when they just work and are supported for years (software close to ten years). I don't want to reinstall or reconfigure my daily rigs at home all the time. I purchase them with as long on-site warranty as possible. Minimum three years. If they break service personnel comes fixing them on my kitchen table. I have certain older computers which are ten or more years old. No warranty on those any more.

But that's me and my choice on the computers I own and support at home. 

On December 6, 2018 12:27:11 AM UTC, Linux for blind general discussion <blinux-list@redhat.com> wrote:
>Linux for blind general discussion <blinux-list@redhat.com> wrote:
>> I have a feeling you haven't provided enough information for anyone
>to 
>> help. Unfortunately it is quite normal on this list.
>> 
>> Please try to tell exactly what you are trying to accomplish with
>what 
>> exact hardware setup and scenario.
>
>
>Trying to install Debian on a new system. When I said, debian prompt, I
>was referring to the boot prompt observed when booting a USB stick or
>cd. This usually consists of the distribution name and optionally a
>prompt to type commands.
>The board does not have integrated video, at all. When the USB stick is
>plugged in (or boot cd inserted), the computer just sits there, doing
>nothing.
>Having observed similar behavior from another system, it was clear that
>video hardware is required. Immediately upon inserting a video card
>into the previous system, everything worked as normal.
>The reason I wrote was because subsequent to my previous experience, I
>found out that Linux could be fooled into thinking there was video
>hardware present when, in fact, there isn't. I knew it could be fooled
>into thinking there was a monitor present, but someone informed me that
>linux also did not necessarily need video hardware either.
>Unfortunately, the evidence he gave confirmed my own information; that
>is, editing xorg.conf to use xorg-video-dummy-x86 or similar. This is
>way ahead of where I am, as there is no xorg yet and we are still at
>trying to boot a linux USB stick or cd.
>I am using a braille display and, as previously stated, I saw no
>indication that the stick (or cd) had booted appear on the display. The
>computer just sat, humming to itself.
>I went ahead and ordered a cheap video PCI card, but I was curious to
>know if Linux could be fooled into running without it. It appears,
>however, that it can't. At least, not here. It was a generic question
>(can linux do this?) and not necessarily hardware specific.
>
>_______________________________________________
>Blinux-list mailing list
>Blinux-list@redhat.com
>https://www.redhat.com/mailman/listinfo/blinux-list

Re: Booting Linux with No Video card

[Linux for blind general discussion]

No, this isn't right. There have always been headless servers and Linux
has always suppoerted headless machines.

Maybe it's a problem with that stick you're using?

Linux for blind general discussion writes:
> Linux for blind general discussion <blinux-list@redhat.com> wrote:
> < Please note that most desktops have video on the same die (or 
> > chip) as the cpu just like pretty much everything else but RAM.
> 
> This board has no onboard or integrated video at all. When I plugged in the stick no debian prompt came up, so I guess I'm stuck and must order a card.
> Oh, well, I did try.
> > 
> 
> 
> _______________________________________________
> Blinux-list mailing list
> Blinux-list@redhat.com
> https://www.redhat.com/mailman/listinfo/blinux-list

-- 

Janina Sajka

Linux Foundation Fellow
Executive Chair, Accessibility Workgroup:	http://a11y.org

The World Wide Web Consortium (W3C), Web Accessibility Initiative (WAI)
Chair, Accessible Platform Architectures	http://www.w3.org/wai/apa

Re: Booting Linux with No Video card

[Linux for blind general discussion]

I have no experience booting from USB flash drives or booting Debian
Live with or without accessibility, so I'm not sure how much help I
can be, but a few questions that come to mind:

Is the flash drive you're trying to boot from supposed to contain some
flavor of Debian Live or some flavor of the Debian Installer? In
either case, could you point us to the iso you used to flash the usb
stick? Or the method used to flash the stick? Any of this information
could be helpful in narrowing down possible issues with the stick
itself.

If the usb stick contains a copy of the Debian Installer, does a beep
sound from your machine at any point after trying to boot? If so, that
beep should indicate that you are at the installer's boot menu, and I
believe pressing s and enter should initiate the talking version of
the Installer. No idea if braille is enabled at the same time provided
compatible hardware is detected for Braille.

No idea if this beep plays on Debian Live, and no idea what to tell
you if your machine lacks sound hardware as well, and personally, I'm
not all that fond of how Debian handles starting the talking Installer
since it means doing a blind install requires external documentation
even when the install media boots properly. If you have sound
hardware, but still don't hear the beep after many minutes, I'm not
sure how to tell if the problem is with the stick itself, due to
issues with your biso's boot settings, or hardware issues.

-- 
Sincerely,

Jeffery Wright
Bachelor of Computer Science
President Emeritus, Nu Nu Chapter, Phi Theta Kappa.