RE: the Papenmeir device that was supposed to be coming out

RE: the Papenmeir device that was supposed to be coming out

[Ian Blackburn]

not much I checked the web page the other day no info there 

> ----------
> From: 	Brent Harding[SMTP:bharding@doorpi.net]
> Reply To: 	blinux-list@redhat.com
> Sent: 	Tuesday, 13 November 2001 11:26 AM
> To: 	blinux-list@redhat.com
> Subject: 	the Papenmeir device that was supposed to be coming out
> 
> 	Is there any more about that Papenmeir device that's supposed to be
> coming
> out soon that runs an embedded form of linux? Will it have line in and
> outputs for sound on it? What kind of speech will it use?
> Thanks.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> _______________________________________________
> Blinux-list mailing list
> Blinux-list@redhat.com
> https://listman.redhat.com/mailman/listinfo/blinux-list
> 


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Re: the Papenmeir device that was supposed to be coming out

[David Poehlman]

it's been delayed till the first of next year according to inside
sources.

----- Original Message -----
From: "Ian Blackburn" <iblackburn@gesb.wa.gov.au>
To: <blinux-list@redhat.com>
Sent: Monday, November 12, 2001 10:55 PM
Subject: RE: the Papenmeir device that was supposed to be coming out


not much I checked the web page the other day no info there

> ----------
> From: Brent Harding[SMTP:bharding@doorpi.net]
> Reply To: blinux-list@redhat.com
> Sent: Tuesday, 13 November 2001 11:26 AM
> To: blinux-list@redhat.com
> Subject: the Papenmeir device that was supposed to be coming out
>
> Is there any more about that Papenmeir device that's supposed to be
> coming
> out soon that runs an embedded form of linux? Will it have line in and
> outputs for sound on it? What kind of speech will it use?
> Thanks.
>
>
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> Blinux-list mailing list
> Blinux-list@redhat.com
> https://listman.redhat.com/mailman/listinfo/blinux-list
>


========================================================
 Standard disclaimer:
 Any recipient of this communication acknowledges that:
 * the Government Employees Superannuation Board accepts no
responsibility
 for the contents, nor the validity of this communication; and
 * they do not rely on any view given unless it is properly authorised.
========================================================




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Re: the Papenmeir device that was supposed to be coming out

[Brent Harding]

That sucks, kind of need something sooner, wonder if one can get on beta
testing? Is it a small unit like a braille note or something?
I hope this new device can do some recording type stuff too, not my primary
use of such a thing, but extra features are always great.
At 11:38 PM 11/12/01 -0500, you wrote:
>it's been delayed till the first of next year according to inside
>sources.
>
>----- Original Message -----
>From: "Ian Blackburn" <iblackburn@gesb.wa.gov.au>
>To: <blinux-list@redhat.com>
>Sent: Monday, November 12, 2001 10:55 PM
>Subject: RE: the Papenmeir device that was supposed to be coming out
>
>
>not much I checked the web page the other day no info there
>
>> ----------
>> From: Brent Harding[SMTP:bharding@doorpi.net]
>> Reply To: blinux-list@redhat.com
>> Sent: Tuesday, 13 November 2001 11:26 AM
>> To: blinux-list@redhat.com
>> Subject: the Papenmeir device that was supposed to be coming out
>>
>> Is there any more about that Papenmeir device that's supposed to be
>> coming
>> out soon that runs an embedded form of linux? Will it have line in and
>> outputs for sound on it? What kind of speech will it use?
>> Thanks.
>>
>>
>>
>>
>> _______________________________________________
>> Blinux-list mailing list
>> Blinux-list@redhat.com
>> https://listman.redhat.com/mailman/listinfo/blinux-list
>>
>
>
>========================================================
> Standard disclaimer:
> Any recipient of this communication acknowledges that:
> * the Government Employees Superannuation Board accepts no
>responsibility
> for the contents, nor the validity of this communication; and
> * they do not rely on any view given unless it is properly authorised.
>========================================================
>
>
>
>
>_______________________________________________
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>
>
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>

Re: the Papenmeir device that was supposed to be coming out

[Tommy Craig]

Hi all,

    The Papenmeier ELBA should be shipping around the end of November. I am
a sales rep for Sighted Electronics and at least that's what we're being
told. Tommy

Re: the Papenmeir device that was supposed to be coming out

[David Poehlman]

cool!

----- Original Message -----
From: "Tommy Craig" <tecraig@earthlink.net>
To: <blinux-list@redhat.com>
Sent: Tuesday, November 13, 2001 9:49 AM
Subject: Re: the Papenmeir device that was supposed to be coming out


Hi all,

    The Papenmeier ELBA should be shipping around the end of November. I
am
a sales rep for Sighted Electronics and at least that's what we're being
told. Tommy




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RE: the Papenmeir device that was supposed to be coming out

[Joel Zimba]

Hiya Tommy,  how the hell are ya?

I also have been given the word on a nov/beginning of dec timeframe.  now if
I could scrape up the cash to buy one...

anyone wanna buy a braillex 2d?

Joel

-----Original Message-----
From: blinux-list-admin@redhat.com
[mailto:blinux-list-admin@redhat.com]On Behalf Of Tommy Craig
Sent: Tuesday, November 13, 2001 9:49 AM
To: blinux-list@redhat.com
Subject: Re: the Papenmeir device that was supposed to be coming out


Hi all,

    The Papenmeier ELBA should be shipping around the end of November. I am
a sales rep for Sighted Electronics and at least that's what we're being
told. Tommy




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Re: the Papenmeir device that was supposed to be coming out

[Brent Harding]

Wow, that's cool! Is there any demos yet online of what it sounds like, and
it's various features? I think it'll be cool. Is there going to be a less
expensive voice only model? It seems that voice only notetakers have for
the most part gone the way of isa slots, and other old but good hardware,
yet braille displays aren't any cheaper than they were before.
At 08:49 AM 11/13/01 -0600, you wrote:
>Hi all,
>
>    The Papenmeier ELBA should be shipping around the end of November. I am
>a sales rep for Sighted Electronics and at least that's what we're being
>told. Tommy
>
>
>
>
>_______________________________________________
>Blinux-list mailing list
>Blinux-list@redhat.com
>https://listman.redhat.com/mailman/listinfo/blinux-list
>
>

RE: the Papenmeir device that was supposed to be coming out

[Joel Zimba]

since you have an option of 20 or 32 cells, you would think you could buy a
0-cell option...
then add them in later or something.

just a thought.

it would be a bit lighter and a lot cheaper for those who think money is an
issue (all of us?)

I personally coulden't live without braille, but some people actually prefer
speech.

J

-----Original Message-----
From: blinux-list-admin@redhat.com
[mailto:blinux-list-admin@redhat.com]On Behalf Of Tommy Craig
Sent: Tuesday, November 13, 2001 12:13 PM
To: blinux-list@redhat.com
Subject: Re: the Papenmeir device that was supposed to be coming out


    There isn't a speech only version planned. Since Papenmeier is primarily
a Braille display manufacturer, I doubt that there will be one. There isn't
an online demo available. I'm not sure if they will make that available or
not. You really need to get your hands on one to appreciate it. There is a
description of its features available at http://www.sighted.com.
Tommy




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Re: the Papenmeir device that was supposed to be coming out

[Tommy Craig]

    There isn't a speech only version planned. Since Papenmeier is primarily
a Braille display manufacturer, I doubt that there will be one. There isn't
an online demo available. I'm not sure if they will make that available or
not. You really need to get your hands on one to appreciate it. There is a
description of its features available at http://www.sighted.com.
Tommy

Re: the Papenmeir device that was supposed to be coming out

[Janina Sajka]

No, it's not small. It's 8.5 by 11 inches. Makes one wonder why it's 
superior to a portable computer, actually. Heck, it's more expensive than 
a portable computer.



-- 
	
				Janina Sajka, Director
				Technology Research and Development
				Governmental Relations Group
				American Foundation for the Blind (AFB)

Email: janina@afb.net		Phone: (202) 408-8175

Chair, Accessibility SIG
Open Electronic Book Forum (OEBF)
http://www.openebook.org

Will electronic books surpass print books? Read our white paper,
Surpassing Gutenberg, at http://www.afb.org/ebook.asp

Download a free sample Digital Talking Book edition of Martin Luther
King Jr's inspiring "I Have A Dream" speech at
http://www.afb.org/mlkweb.asp

Learn how to make accessible software at
http://www.afb.org/accessapp.asp

Re: the Papenmeir device that was supposed to be coming out

[Janina Sajka]

Ah, excellent. So, how does Sighted justify the high price?

On Tue, 13 Nov 2001, Tommy Craig wrote:

> Hi all,
> 
>     The Papenmeier ELBA should be shipping around the end of November. I am
> a sales rep for Sighted Electronics and at least that's what we're being
> told. Tommy
> 
> 
> 
> 
> _______________________________________________
> Blinux-list mailing list
> Blinux-list@redhat.com
> https://listman.redhat.com/mailman/listinfo/blinux-list
> 

-- 
	
				Janina Sajka, Director
				Technology Research and Development
				Governmental Relations Group
				American Foundation for the Blind (AFB)

Email: janina@afb.net		Phone: (202) 408-8175

Chair, Accessibility SIG
Open Electronic Book Forum (OEBF)
http://www.openebook.org

Will electronic books surpass print books? Read our white paper,
Surpassing Gutenberg, at http://www.afb.org/ebook.asp

Download a free sample Digital Talking Book edition of Martin Luther
King Jr's inspiring "I Have A Dream" speech at
http://www.afb.org/mlkweb.asp

Learn how to make accessible software at
http://www.afb.org/accessapp.asp

Re: the Papenmeir device that was supposed to be coming out

[Tommy Craig]

Well I suppose the same way that every Braille display manufacturer does.
Braille cost a lot to make. Your response makes it sound as if the ELBA is
tremendously more expensive than the BrailleNote or the BrailleLite. It
isn't. I think the price is very competitive, especially since it offers a
lot more than either one of the other devices.
Tommy

RE: the Papenmeir device that was supposed to be coming out

[Brent Harding]

Actually, I've always lived without braille on notetakers, accept for a
brief time when the braille 'n speak I was using died suddenly and got to
borrow a braille lite, it's nice to have the braille option too, but of
course it is when it doesn't involve my own money.
At 12:08 PM 11/13/01 -0500, you wrote:
>since you have an option of 20 or 32 cells, you would think you could buy a
>0-cell option...
>then add them in later or something.
>
>just a thought.
>
>it would be a bit lighter and a lot cheaper for those who think money is an
>issue (all of us?)
>
>I personally coulden't live without braille, but some people actually prefer
>speech.
>
>J
>
>-----Original Message-----
>From: blinux-list-admin@redhat.com
>[mailto:blinux-list-admin@redhat.com]On Behalf Of Tommy Craig
>Sent: Tuesday, November 13, 2001 12:13 PM
>To: blinux-list@redhat.com
>Subject: Re: the Papenmeir device that was supposed to be coming out
>
>
>    There isn't a speech only version planned. Since Papenmeier is primarily
>a Braille display manufacturer, I doubt that there will be one. There isn't
>an online demo available. I'm not sure if they will make that available or
>not. You really need to get your hands on one to appreciate it. There is a
>description of its features available at http://www.sighted.com.
>Tommy
>
>
>
>
>_______________________________________________
>Blinux-list mailing list
>Blinux-list@redhat.com
>https://listman.redhat.com/mailman/listinfo/blinux-list
>
>
>
>_______________________________________________
>Blinux-list mailing list
>Blinux-list@redhat.com
>https://listman.redhat.com/mailman/listinfo/blinux-list
>
>

Re: the Papenmeir device that was supposed to be coming out

[Janina Sajka]

True, but that's all the more reason for a speech only version. Why force 
people to take the form factor plus the braille, when they can't afford 
the price? I know braille is the only medium most European blind folk care 
about, but I'm asking from the U.S. perspective.

Now, my second point -- What about the included speech? Is it truely 
UXDOTS? If so, why? Speakup is free, and UXDOTS isn't. So, what's the 
advantage to the user?
 On Tue, 13 Nov 2001, Tommy Craig wrote:

> Well I suppose the same way that every Braille display manufacturer does.
> Braille cost a lot to make. Your response makes it sound as if the ELBA is
> tremendously more expensive than the BrailleNote or the BrailleLite. It
> isn't. I think the price is very competitive, especially since it offers a
> lot more than either one of the other devices.
> Tommy
> 
> 
> 
> 
> _______________________________________________
> Blinux-list mailing list
> Blinux-list@redhat.com
> https://listman.redhat.com/mailman/listinfo/blinux-list
> 

-- 
	
				Janina Sajka, Director
				Technology Research and Development
				Governmental Relations Group
				American Foundation for the Blind (AFB)

Email: janina@afb.net		Phone: (202) 408-8175

Chair, Accessibility SIG
Open Electronic Book Forum (OEBF)
http://www.openebook.org

Will electronic books surpass print books? Read our white paper,
Surpassing Gutenberg, at http://www.afb.org/ebook.asp

Download a free sample Digital Talking Book edition of Martin Luther
King Jr's inspiring "I Have A Dream" speech at
http://www.afb.org/mlkweb.asp

Learn how to make accessible software at
http://www.afb.org/accessapp.asp

Re: the Papenmeir device that was supposed to be coming out

[philwh]

Hi.
>From the ifno on the uxdots site, it sounds as if it may be
more advanced than speakup as far as cursor and highlight
or screen attributes are concerned.

but this is just from the ifno fromt he site.
I tried to download the demo of uxdots, but the link doesn't work.

phil

On Tue, Nov 13, 2001 at 02:28:42PM -0500, Janina Sajka wrote:
> True, but that's all the more reason for a speech only version. Why force 
> people to take the form factor plus the braille, when they can't afford 
> the price? I know braille is the only medium most European blind folk care 
> about, but I'm asking from the U.S. perspective.
> 
> Now, my second point -- What about the included speech? Is it truely 
> UXDOTS? If so, why? Speakup is free, and UXDOTS isn't. So, what's the 
> advantage to the user?
>  On Tue, 13 Nov 2001, Tommy Craig wrote:
> 
> > Well I suppose the same way that every Braille display manufacturer does.
> > Braille cost a lot to make. Your response makes it sound as if the ELBA is
> > tremendously more expensive than the BrailleNote or the BrailleLite. It
> > isn't. I think the price is very competitive, especially since it offers a
> > lot more than either one of the other devices.
> > Tommy
> > 
> > 
> > 
> > 
> > _______________________________________________
> > Blinux-list mailing list
> > Blinux-list@redhat.com
> > https://listman.redhat.com/mailman/listinfo/blinux-list
> > 
> 
> -- 
> 	
> 				Janina Sajka, Director
> 				Technology Research and Development
> 				Governmental Relations Group
> 				American Foundation for the Blind (AFB)
> 
> Email: janina@afb.net		Phone: (202) 408-8175
> 
> Chair, Accessibility SIG
> Open Electronic Book Forum (OEBF)
> http://www.openebook.org
> 
> Will electronic books surpass print books? Read our white paper,
> Surpassing Gutenberg, at http://www.afb.org/ebook.asp
> 
> Download a free sample Digital Talking Book edition of Martin Luther
> King Jr's inspiring "I Have A Dream" speech at
> http://www.afb.org/mlkweb.asp
> 
> Learn how to make accessible software at
> http://www.afb.org/accessapp.asp
> 
> 
> 
> _______________________________________________
> Blinux-list mailing list
> Blinux-list@redhat.com
> https://listman.redhat.com/mailman/listinfo/blinux-list

Re: the Papenmeir device that was supposed to be coming out

[Tommy Craig]

Well, I guess I would say that no one is forcing anyone to buy anything.
There is always the good old Braille N Speak. BTW, the price of the BNS
started out at under a thousand dollars. It didn't stay that way for long. I
definately would like lower prices both as a blind person and as a
salesperson but unfortunately you usually get what you pay for. Papenmeier
has a long time reputation for quality. I have owned and used several of
their displays and I can personally vouch for their reliability. Also I am a
firm believer that Braille allows a blind person to be more productive. That
is a very important factor if an employer is purchasing technology for you.
Unfortunately most blind people who are not working can't afford to purchase
their own equipment, even if the price does drop below a thousand dollars.
The main reason for the high cost in all of these products is the small
market. If Toshiba only sold a couple of thousand laptops the price would be
in the tens of thousands of dollars.
Tommy

Re: the Papenmeir device that was supposed to be coming out

[Janina Sajka]

Yes, that link was broken last week as well.


On Tue, 13 Nov 2001 philwh@gate.net wrote:

> Hi.
> >From the ifno on the uxdots site, it sounds as if it may be
> more advanced than speakup as far as cursor and highlight
> or screen attributes are concerned.
> 
> but this is just from the ifno fromt he site.
> I tried to download the demo of uxdots, but the link doesn't work.
> 
> phil
> 
> On Tue, Nov 13, 2001 at 02:28:42PM -0500, Janina Sajka wrote:
> > True, but that's all the more reason for a speech only version. Why force 
> > people to take the form factor plus the braille, when they can't afford 
> > the price? I know braille is the only medium most European blind folk care 
> > about, but I'm asking from the U.S. perspective.
> > 
> > Now, my second point -- What about the included speech? Is it truely 
> > UXDOTS? If so, why? Speakup is free, and UXDOTS isn't. So, what's the 
> > advantage to the user?
> >  On Tue, 13 Nov 2001, Tommy Craig wrote:
> > 
> > > Well I suppose the same way that every Braille display manufacturer does.
> > > Braille cost a lot to make. Your response makes it sound as if the ELBA is
> > > tremendously more expensive than the BrailleNote or the BrailleLite. It
> > > isn't. I think the price is very competitive, especially since it offers a
> > > lot more than either one of the other devices.
> > > Tommy
> > > 
> > > 
> > > 
> > > 
> > > _______________________________________________
> > > Blinux-list mailing list
> > > Blinux-list@redhat.com
> > > https://listman.redhat.com/mailman/listinfo/blinux-list
> > > 
> > 
> > -- 
> > 	
> > 				Janina Sajka, Director
> > 				Technology Research and Development
> > 				Governmental Relations Group
> > 				American Foundation for the Blind (AFB)
> > 
> > Email: janina@afb.net		Phone: (202) 408-8175
> > 
> > Chair, Accessibility SIG
> > Open Electronic Book Forum (OEBF)
> > http://www.openebook.org
> > 
> > Will electronic books surpass print books? Read our white paper,
> > Surpassing Gutenberg, at http://www.afb.org/ebook.asp
> > 
> > Download a free sample Digital Talking Book edition of Martin Luther
> > King Jr's inspiring "I Have A Dream" speech at
> > http://www.afb.org/mlkweb.asp
> > 
> > Learn how to make accessible software at
> > http://www.afb.org/accessapp.asp
> > 
> > 
> > 
> > _______________________________________________
> > Blinux-list mailing list
> > Blinux-list@redhat.com
> > https://listman.redhat.com/mailman/listinfo/blinux-list
> 
> 
> 
> _______________________________________________
> Blinux-list mailing list
> Blinux-list@redhat.com
> https://listman.redhat.com/mailman/listinfo/blinux-list
> 

-- 
	
				Janina Sajka, Director
				Technology Research and Development
				Governmental Relations Group
				American Foundation for the Blind (AFB)

Email: janina@afb.net		Phone: (202) 408-8175

Chair, Accessibility SIG
Open Electronic Book Forum (OEBF)
http://www.openebook.org

Will electronic books surpass print books? Read our white paper,
Surpassing Gutenberg, at http://www.afb.org/ebook.asp

Download a free sample Digital Talking Book edition of Martin Luther
King Jr's inspiring "I Have A Dream" speech at
http://www.afb.org/mlkweb.asp

Learn how to make accessible software at
http://www.afb.org/accessapp.asp

Re: the Papenmeir device that was supposed to be coming out

[Janina Sajka]

Tommy, wait a minute here, computers cost less today across the board. If 
we believe what you say, that we get what we pay for, then they should be 
poorer computers, not more powerful ones. This just isn't the case.

So, why are computer prices coming down everywhere except assistive 
technology, where they're going up? I understand about refreshable braille 
displays. I don't understand at all about the rest of it. The 
Papenmeier/Alva web page points out that much linux software is free or 
low cost. So, are you guys packaging free software and charging more for 
it? Please, this price needs an honest explanation.

 On 
Tue, 13 Nov 2001, Tommy Craig wrote:

> Well, I guess I would say that no one is forcing anyone to buy anything.
> There is always the good old Braille N Speak. BTW, the price of the BNS
> started out at under a thousand dollars. It didn't stay that way for long. I
> definately would like lower prices both as a blind person and as a
> salesperson but unfortunately you usually get what you pay for. Papenmeier
> has a long time reputation for quality. I have owned and used several of
> their displays and I can personally vouch for their reliability. Also I am a
> firm believer that Braille allows a blind person to be more productive. That
> is a very important factor if an employer is purchasing technology for you.
> Unfortunately most blind people who are not working can't afford to purchase
> their own equipment, even if the price does drop below a thousand dollars.
> The main reason for the high cost in all of these products is the small
> market. If Toshiba only sold a couple of thousand laptops the price would be
> in the tens of thousands of dollars.
> Tommy
> 
> 
> 
> 
> _______________________________________________
> Blinux-list mailing list
> Blinux-list@redhat.com
> https://listman.redhat.com/mailman/listinfo/blinux-list
> 

-- 
	
				Janina Sajka, Director
				Technology Research and Development
				Governmental Relations Group
				American Foundation for the Blind (AFB)

Email: janina@afb.net		Phone: (202) 408-8175

Chair, Accessibility SIG
Open Electronic Book Forum (OEBF)
http://www.openebook.org

Will electronic books surpass print books? Read our white paper,
Surpassing Gutenberg, at http://www.afb.org/ebook.asp

Download a free sample Digital Talking Book edition of Martin Luther
King Jr's inspiring "I Have A Dream" speech at
http://www.afb.org/mlkweb.asp

Learn how to make accessible software at
http://www.afb.org/accessapp.asp

Re: the Papenmeir device that was supposed to be coming out

[Brent Harding]

All thy make is the millenium braille lite and type lites now. I used a bns
for years at school, and after awhile, it kept dying shortly after repair,
so used ones aren't the way to go.
At 02:20 PM 11/13/01 -0600, you wrote:
>Well, I guess I would say that no one is forcing anyone to buy anything.
>There is always the good old Braille N Speak. BTW, the price of the BNS
>started out at under a thousand dollars. It didn't stay that way for long. I
>definately would like lower prices both as a blind person and as a
>salesperson but unfortunately you usually get what you pay for. Papenmeier
>has a long time reputation for quality. I have owned and used several of
>their displays and I can personally vouch for their reliability. Also I am a
>firm believer that Braille allows a blind person to be more productive. That
>is a very important factor if an employer is purchasing technology for you.
>Unfortunately most blind people who are not working can't afford to purchase
>their own equipment, even if the price does drop below a thousand dollars.
>The main reason for the high cost in all of these products is the small
>market. If Toshiba only sold a couple of thousand laptops the price would be
>in the tens of thousands of dollars.
>Tommy
>
>
>
>
>_______________________________________________
>Blinux-list mailing list
>Blinux-list@redhat.com
>https://listman.redhat.com/mailman/listinfo/blinux-list
>
>

Re: the Papenmeir device that was supposed to be coming out

[Luke Davis]

On Tue, 13 Nov 2001, Tommy Craig wrote:

> their displays and I can personally vouch for their reliability. Also I am a
> firm believer that Braille allows a blind person to be more productive. That
> is a very important factor if an employer is purchasing technology for you.

My my, what an ego centric statement.
I don't mean that as a flaim, as I am certain you didn't intend it that
way.

You have, however, assumed that everyone is as proficient with braille as
you may be, or as anyone else may be, for that matter.

I can tell you from experience, that while I am reasonably good with grade
one and two braille, it will take me twenty minutes to do somehing with a
braille display, that would have taken five or ten with speech.  That is
magnified greatly on largeer projects.

My point is: while it may make you more productive, myself, and many
others (very possibly the majority) would find it a hinderance to
productivity.

I don't use braille displays for programming either, for this same reason,
and I can afford one if I really needed one.  The fact is, in every
circumstance, speech is better, for *me*.  That may not be true for anyone
else here, but there is no possible way I could make a statement to the
effect that "the braille medium makes a blind person more productive, and
employers know this".  I suppose we should all use white canes as well,
because  they are more condusive to rapid travel, and require far less
maintanance?    Those dogs are so darn unproductive...

Disclaimer: I ment no offense by this post.

Luke
(*) I am a cane user, and yes it is more productive.:)

Re: the Papenmeir device that was supposed to be coming out

[A. R. Vener]

Janina,

He gave you one. Assistive technology aims for a low quantity 
market.  If there were milions of blind people pounding on the
doors to buy this product, competition would pick up, prices would drop
and market forces would determine the cost.  This doesn't happen
with assistive technology. The market is small, the prices must
be set to allow the small customer base (which is businesses and
rehab programs, NOT the end user) to cover research and development
costs, marketing costs, business overhead and a profit.  

Yes, that ugly old P word. Much as some people gnash their teeth and
raise their voices in fury, nonetheless profit is the only real market
motivator that allows assistive hardware technology to be developed.

There's a lot that goes into any commercial product. The fact that they
use Linux probably helps keep the price down, but there are still
software development costs, hardware development costs, packaging costs,
marketing costs, administrative costs.   

This isn't Woz and Jobs in their garage selling a hand made 
gizmo that they packed into an aluminum hobby box they got from
radio shack. It is a commercial product that required physical design, electrical
design, UL Lab testing, FCC Class B RF emission certification, marketing
support, administration support, engineering supprot and so forth and
so on.  All of it pricey. All of it having to be recovered from sales. 

And not very many sales at that.  

Computer prices have done down because they sell in the
tens of millions, even hundreds of millions these days. 

This product is not going to sell a million.


Rudy










On Tue, Nov 13, 2001 at 04:23:48PM -0500, Janina Sajka wrote:
> Tommy, wait a minute here, computers cost less today across the board. If 
> we believe what you say, that we get what we pay for, then they should be 
> poorer computers, not more powerful ones. This just isn't the case.
> 
> So, why are computer prices coming down everywhere except assistive 
> technology, where they're going up? I understand about refreshable braille 
> displays. I don't understand at all about the rest of it. The 
> Papenmeier/Alva web page points out that much linux software is free or 
> low cost. So, are you guys packaging free software and charging more for 
> it? Please, this price needs an honest explanation.
> 

Re: the Papenmeir device that was supposed to be coming out

[Janina Sajka]

I don't buy it. Once upon a time Kurzweil scanning systems cost $10,000 
U.S. My employer, American Foundation for the Blind, worked with Kurzweil 
to develop a loan program whereby blind people could buy this wonderful 
technology. Fortunately, before we issued very many $10K loans, Arkenstone 
came along at about $5,000. Immediately, Kurzweil figured out how to sell 
its systems at the lower price. Of course, this was many years ago, but I 
don't believe things have changed that muhc.

For years, Blazie was the only game in town. So, they sold and sold, and 
neglected to innovate. Thus, today's Blazie based devices are still little 
more than mid-1980's technologies. Yet there prices have not dropped. 
Regretably, the newer crop of devices seem to prefer holding the line on 
price. I don't accept that. It's a travesty, in my view, as proven by the 
Blazie folks who managed to get a couple of company Lear jets before 
selling to Freedom Scientific for $15 Million.

I've heard this all before, but what's so darned proprietary in these 
products? The processors? Heck no. The memory? No, again. Perhaps the 
ethernet and modem and parallel ports? No, again. Maybe the software? Not 
speakup, which is free, or brltty, which is free, nor the os, which is 
free, nor, likely, most of software inside the unit. 

So, I'm left with the box itself and its keys, and the marketing. But, the 
parts involved cost less, and the price hasn't come down. That's wrong, 
just plain wrong.
 On Tue, 13 Nov 2001, A. R. Vener wrote:

> 
> Janina,
> 
> He gave you one. Assistive technology aims for a low quantity 
> market.  If there were milions of blind people pounding on the
> doors to buy this product, competition would pick up, prices would drop
> and market forces would determine the cost.  This doesn't happen
> with assistive technology. The market is small, the prices must
> be set to allow the small customer base (which is businesses and
> rehab programs, NOT the end user) to cover research and development
> costs, marketing costs, business overhead and a profit.  
> 
> Yes, that ugly old P word. Much as some people gnash their teeth and
> raise their voices in fury, nonetheless profit is the only real market
> motivator that allows assistive hardware technology to be developed.
> 
> There's a lot that goes into any commercial product. The fact that they
> use Linux probably helps keep the price down, but there are still
> software development costs, hardware development costs, packaging costs,
> marketing costs, administrative costs.   
> 
> This isn't Woz and Jobs in their garage selling a hand made 
> gizmo that they packed into an aluminum hobby box they got from
> radio shack. It is a commercial product that required physical design, electrical
> design, UL Lab testing, FCC Class B RF emission certification, marketing
> support, administration support, engineering supprot and so forth and
> so on.  All of it pricey. All of it having to be recovered from sales. 
> 
> And not very many sales at that.  
> 
> Computer prices have done down because they sell in the
> tens of millions, even hundreds of millions these days. 
> 
> This product is not going to sell a million.
> 
> 
> Rudy
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> On Tue, Nov 13, 2001 at 04:23:48PM -0500, Janina Sajka wrote:
> > Tommy, wait a minute here, computers cost less today across the board. If 
> > we believe what you say, that we get what we pay for, then they should be 
> > poorer computers, not more powerful ones. This just isn't the case.
> > 
> > So, why are computer prices coming down everywhere except assistive 
> > technology, where they're going up? I understand about refreshable braille 
> > displays. I don't understand at all about the rest of it. The 
> > Papenmeier/Alva web page points out that much linux software is free or 
> > low cost. So, are you guys packaging free software and charging more for 
> > it? Please, this price needs an honest explanation.
> > 
> 
> 
> 
> _______________________________________________
> Blinux-list mailing list
> Blinux-list@redhat.com
> https://listman.redhat.com/mailman/listinfo/blinux-list
> 

-- 
	
				Janina Sajka, Director
				Technology Research and Development
				Governmental Relations Group
				American Foundation for the Blind (AFB)

Email: janina@afb.net		Phone: (202) 408-8175

Chair, Accessibility SIG
Open Electronic Book Forum (OEBF)
http://www.openebook.org

Will electronic books surpass print books? Read our white paper,
Surpassing Gutenberg, at http://www.afb.org/ebook.asp

Download a free sample Digital Talking Book edition of Martin Luther
King Jr's inspiring "I Have A Dream" speech at
http://www.afb.org/mlkweb.asp

Learn how to make accessible software at
http://www.afb.org/accessapp.asp

Re: the Papenmeir device that was supposed to be coming out

[Tommy Craig]

Well I guess I didn't make my point very well. The reason prices on
computers are dropping is because they are sold by the hundreds of
thousands. For example, Dell computers sells more computers in one hour than
A blindness company is likely to sell in five years. When a manufacturer
develops a new product it cost a lot of money in or&d. It takes months if
not years to developed a new product line and it takes a team of dedicated
and talented people to do it. These people don't work for free. As a matter
of fact they usually get paid very well. It also cost an amazing amount to
make test models and to developed a case to put it all in. If Dell spends
$800,000 to developed a new product and it sells 100000 of them, it only
cost them $8 per unit to developed it. If on the other hand a blindness
company spends $800,000 to developed a new product and only sells a thousand
of them, then it cost $800 per unit to developed it. Also manufacturing cost
are much less when you produce tens of thousands of something than when you
produce hundreds of units.

    The next area of course is sales and support. If you go to Office Depot
and buy a computer, the salesperson spends maybe ten minutes with you, takes
your money and you go home and will probably never see that person again.
When I sell a product, It is usually after making a trip to see the
individual, in many cases tens or hundreds of miles away. Once I get to the
person, I usually spend at least a couple of hours showing the product,
answering questions and teaching the person at least the basics of how to
use the device. Then once I make the sale, I usually spend time on the phone
answering questions and helping the user get the most out of their product.
I'm not complaining. I believe that I owe it to my customers to make sure
they have the best experience possible with my products, but it is still a
far different relationship than people have with their department store.

    You also state that the price of Braille displays is not dropping but is
instead increasing. This is certainly not the case. When I first started
working with Papenmeier displays, the IB-80 cost around $18,000. Now a
comparable model sells for around $10,000. It's still not cheap, but it is
certainly less expensive than it used to be. We have also increased the
reliability of our products. For example, back then you got a one year
warranty, now our displays come with a three year warranty. This is also
just the opposite of what most companies are doing. For example, Dell used
to provide a three year warranty with all of their systems. They now offer a
one year warranty and charge extra for additional years.

    Don't get me wrong. I do wish the products I sell were much cheaper. I
would love to see the price cut in half or even better. I don't believe it
will happen anytime soon though. You also ask about the statement concerning
Linux software. The point is that with the ELBA you will be able to run off
the shelf software that is free or very inexpensive. You can download a
title and use it instead of or in addition to what we provide.
Tommy

Re: the Papenmeir device that was supposed to be coming out

[Janina Sajka]

Tommy, what did Papenmeier/Alva develop on this product? The OS? The 
telecomm progs that talk modem and ethernet? Maybe the word fileformat 
converters? Perhaps the calendars? What?

 On Tue, 13 Nov 2001, Tommy Craig 
wrote:

> Well I guess I didn't make my point very well. The reason prices on
> computers are dropping is because they are sold by the hundreds of
> thousands. For example, Dell computers sells more computers in one hour than
> A blindness company is likely to sell in five years. When a manufacturer
> develops a new product it cost a lot of money in or&d. It takes months if
> not years to developed a new product line and it takes a team of dedicated
> and talented people to do it. These people don't work for free. As a matter
> of fact they usually get paid very well. It also cost an amazing amount to
> make test models and to developed a case to put it all in. If Dell spends
> $800,000 to developed a new product and it sells 100000 of them, it only
> cost them $8 per unit to developed it. If on the other hand a blindness
> company spends $800,000 to developed a new product and only sells a thousand
> of them, then it cost $800 per unit to developed it. Also manufacturing cost
> are much less when you produce tens of thousands of something than when you
> produce hundreds of units.
> 
>     The next area of course is sales and support. If you go to Office Depot
> and buy a computer, the salesperson spends maybe ten minutes with you, takes
> your money and you go home and will probably never see that person again.
> When I sell a product, It is usually after making a trip to see the
> individual, in many cases tens or hundreds of miles away. Once I get to the
> person, I usually spend at least a couple of hours showing the product,
> answering questions and teaching the person at least the basics of how to
> use the device. Then once I make the sale, I usually spend time on the phone
> answering questions and helping the user get the most out of their product.
> I'm not complaining. I believe that I owe it to my customers to make sure
> they have the best experience possible with my products, but it is still a
> far different relationship than people have with their department store.
> 
>     You also state that the price of Braille displays is not dropping but is
> instead increasing. This is certainly not the case. When I first started
> working with Papenmeier displays, the IB-80 cost around $18,000. Now a
> comparable model sells for around $10,000. It's still not cheap, but it is
> certainly less expensive than it used to be. We have also increased the
> reliability of our products. For example, back then you got a one year
> warranty, now our displays come with a three year warranty. This is also
> just the opposite of what most companies are doing. For example, Dell used
> to provide a three year warranty with all of their systems. They now offer a
> one year warranty and charge extra for additional years.
> 
>     Don't get me wrong. I do wish the products I sell were much cheaper. I
> would love to see the price cut in half or even better. I don't believe it
> will happen anytime soon though. You also ask about the statement concerning
> Linux software. The point is that with the ELBA you will be able to run off
> the shelf software that is free or very inexpensive. You can download a
> title and use it instead of or in addition to what we provide.
> Tommy
> 
> 
> 
> _______________________________________________
> Blinux-list mailing list
> Blinux-list@redhat.com
> https://listman.redhat.com/mailman/listinfo/blinux-list
> 

-- 
	
				Janina Sajka, Director
				Technology Research and Development
				Governmental Relations Group
				American Foundation for the Blind (AFB)

Email: janina@afb.net		Phone: (202) 408-8175

Chair, Accessibility SIG
Open Electronic Book Forum (OEBF)
http://www.openebook.org

Will electronic books surpass print books? Read our white paper,
Surpassing Gutenberg, at http://www.afb.org/ebook.asp

Download a free sample Digital Talking Book edition of Martin Luther
King Jr's inspiring "I Have A Dream" speech at
http://www.afb.org/mlkweb.asp

Learn how to make accessible software at
http://www.afb.org/accessapp.asp

Re: the Papenmeir device that was supposed to be coming out

[Tommy Craig]

Hi Luke,

    I certainly didn't intend to offend anyone either. I do believe that
statistically though I am on safe ground. One statistic is that 80% of blind
people are unemployed and that 80% of the ones who are employed are Braille
users. I based my statements on my experience and on the people I have
worked with and trained throughout the years. Of course there are exceptions
to every rule. I also believe that there is a huge difference in the Braille
display you are using. For example, using an eighty character display is
much more productive than using a 20 or 40 cell display.
Tommy

Re: the Papenmeir device that was supposed to be coming out

[Tommy Craig]

Well It seems that we aren't getting very far with this discussion. If you
believe that everything is off the shelf why don't you go over to Radio
Shack and build your own unit. Then you could have exactly what you want and
save thousands of dollars. Just try it and let me know how it works out. If
you can do it then you can make all that money and do everyone a big favor.
Just the cost of designing and manufacturing the molds to manufacture the
housing runs into hundreds of thousands of dollars. If it were so easy then
everyone would be doing it. They aren't.
Tommy

Re: the Papenmeir device that was supposed to be coming out

[Luke Davis]

Tommy

We could toss stats for hours, and not get anywhere.  I have mine, you
have yours', and it really doesn't matter.

For the record, in my personal case, I have tried em all.  No matter.  I
am far faster with speech.  I suggest that this may apply to a good
portion of the rest of the working blind as well.  I don't know that it
does, however, and I will not posit that it does, nor claim that it is
"how it should be".  Each individual is different, and there is a 50%
chance a particular person will go one way or the other (not considering
those that will use both).
However, one can not say which way anyone will or should go, and one
should  not claim to any degree that one method "is more productive than
another",  because that, as I said, is only 50% true.

Luke

On Tue, 13 Nov 2001, Tommy Craig wrote:

> Hi Luke,
>
>     I certainly didn't intend to offend anyone either. I do believe that
> statistically though I am on safe ground. One statistic is that 80% of blind
> people are unemployed and that 80% of the ones who are employed are Braille
> users. I based my statements on my experience and on the people I have
> worked with and trained throughout the years. Of course there are exceptions
> to every rule. I also believe that there is a huge difference in the Braille
> display you are using. For example, using an eighty character display is
> much more productive than using a 20 or 40 cell display.
> Tommy
>
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> Blinux-list mailing list
> Blinux-list@redhat.com
> https://listman.redhat.com/mailman/listinfo/blinux-list
>

Re: the Papenmeir device that was supposed to be coming out

[David Poehlman]

I have also found that using an 80 character display is ore productive.
it seems that the more you can get within the grasp of your fingertips
at a time, the better it is.  It does take some effort though if you are
used to doing things with speech. When I first started ut in dos, I
started with braille.  I hated going to speech but was forced to it by
circumstanc.  It's even better when yu use the display for navigation in
real time in addition to reading  I can read a line and snap right to
something that needs fixing without having to fiddle with keys to do it.
I can do other things while working on the computer with braille but not
with speech so that makes me more productive.  I have been reading
braille since 1956.

----- Original Message -----
From: "Tommy Craig" <tecraig@earthlink.net>
To: <blinux-list@redhat.com>
Sent: Tuesday, November 13, 2001 5:44 PM
Subject: Re: the Papenmeir device that was supposed to be coming out


Hi Luke,

    I certainly didn't intend to offend anyone either. I do believe that
statistically though I am on safe ground. One statistic is that 80% of
blind
people are unemployed and that 80% of the ones who are employed are
Braille
users. I based my statements on my experience and on the people I have
worked with and trained throughout the years. Of course there are
exceptions
to every rule. I also believe that there is a huge difference in the
Braille
display you are using. For example, using an eighty character display is
much more productive than using a 20 or 40 cell display.
Tommy



_______________________________________________
Blinux-list mailing list
Blinux-list@redhat.com
https://listman.redhat.com/mailman/listinfo/blinux-list

Re: the Papenmeir device that was supposed to be coming out

[Jared]

Put it this way I am most productive with both. When reading programming
manuals or other manuals I can get through it a lot faster with speech. When
having to read code for programs thoe if it gets involved with any type of
complex stuff its a lot quicker to read the code in braille instead of
looking at each line 4 times with speach but this is just me and I know htat
others might be different. This is my last and only contribution on the
thread.


----- Original Message -----
From: "Luke Davis" <ldavis@shellworld.net>
To: <blinux-list@redhat.com>
Sent: Tuesday, November 13, 2001 5:55 PM
Subject: Re: the Papenmeir device that was supposed to be coming out


> Tommy
>
> We could toss stats for hours, and not get anywhere.  I have mine, you
> have yours', and it really doesn't matter.
>
> For the record, in my personal case, I have tried em all.  No matter.  I
> am far faster with speech.  I suggest that this may apply to a good
> portion of the rest of the working blind as well.  I don't know that it
> does, however, and I will not posit that it does, nor claim that it is
> "how it should be".  Each individual is different, and there is a 50%
> chance a particular person will go one way or the other (not considering
> those that will use both).
> However, one can not say which way anyone will or should go, and one
> should  not claim to any degree that one method "is more productive than
> another",  because that, as I said, is only 50% true.
>
> Luke
>
> On Tue, 13 Nov 2001, Tommy Craig wrote:
>
> > Hi Luke,
> >
> >     I certainly didn't intend to offend anyone either. I do believe that
> > statistically though I am on safe ground. One statistic is that 80% of
blind
> > people are unemployed and that 80% of the ones who are employed are
Braille
> > users. I based my statements on my experience and on the people I have
> > worked with and trained throughout the years. Of course there are
exceptions
> > to every rule. I also believe that there is a huge difference in the
Braille
> > display you are using. For example, using an eighty character display is
> > much more productive than using a 20 or 40 cell display.
> > Tommy
> >
> >
> >
> > _______________________________________________
> > Blinux-list mailing list
> > Blinux-list@redhat.com
> > https://listman.redhat.com/mailman/listinfo/blinux-list
> >
>
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> Blinux-list mailing list
> Blinux-list@redhat.com
> https://listman.redhat.com/mailman/listinfo/blinux-list


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Get your free @yahoo.com address at http://mail.yahoo.com

Re: the Papenmeir device that was supposed to be coming out

[Janina Sajka]

It seems that our European friends insist on braille devices far more than 
we Americans do. Over on this side of the pond, speech outsells braille.

On Tue, 13 Nov 2001, Luke Davis wrote:

> Tommy
> 
> We could toss stats for hours, and not get anywhere.  I have mine, you
> have yours', and it really doesn't matter.
> 
> For the record, in my personal case, I have tried em all.  No matter.  I
> am far faster with speech.  I suggest that this may apply to a good
> portion of the rest of the working blind as well.  I don't know that it
> does, however, and I will not posit that it does, nor claim that it is
> "how it should be".  Each individual is different, and there is a 50%
> chance a particular person will go one way or the other (not considering
> those that will use both).
> However, one can not say which way anyone will or should go, and one
> should  not claim to any degree that one method "is more productive than
> another",  because that, as I said, is only 50% true.
> 
> Luke
> 
> On Tue, 13 Nov 2001, Tommy Craig wrote:
> 
> > Hi Luke,
> >
> >     I certainly didn't intend to offend anyone either. I do believe that
> > statistically though I am on safe ground. One statistic is that 80% of blind
> > people are unemployed and that 80% of the ones who are employed are Braille
> > users. I based my statements on my experience and on the people I have
> > worked with and trained throughout the years. Of course there are exceptions
> > to every rule. I also believe that there is a huge difference in the Braille
> > display you are using. For example, using an eighty character display is
> > much more productive than using a 20 or 40 cell display.
> > Tommy
> >
> >
> >
> > _______________________________________________
> > Blinux-list mailing list
> > Blinux-list@redhat.com
> > https://listman.redhat.com/mailman/listinfo/blinux-list
> >
> 
> 
> 
> _______________________________________________
> Blinux-list mailing list
> Blinux-list@redhat.com
> https://listman.redhat.com/mailman/listinfo/blinux-list
> 

-- 
	
				Janina Sajka, Director
				Technology Research and Development
				Governmental Relations Group
				American Foundation for the Blind (AFB)

Email: janina@afb.net		Phone: (202) 408-8175

Chair, Accessibility SIG
Open Electronic Book Forum (OEBF)
http://www.openebook.org

Will electronic books surpass print books? Read our white paper,
Surpassing Gutenberg, at http://www.afb.org/ebook.asp

Download a free sample Digital Talking Book edition of Martin Luther
King Jr's inspiring "I Have A Dream" speech at
http://www.afb.org/mlkweb.asp

Learn how to make accessible software at
http://www.afb.org/accessapp.asp

Re: the Papenmeir device that was supposed to be coming out

[Janina Sajka]

So, you don't want to discuss what software on the device is developed by 
Wait a minute, you're the one that brought it up. I just called you on the 
question.

So, we have the molds. That was developed. Good, I accept that's true.

Now, what else?


On Tue, 13 Nov 2001, Tommy Craig wrote:

> Well It seems that we aren't getting very far with this discussion. If you
> believe that everything is off the shelf why don't you go over to Radio
> Shack and build your own unit. Then you could have exactly what you want and
> save thousands of dollars. Just try it and let me know how it works out. If
> you can do it then you can make all that money and do everyone a big favor.
> Just the cost of designing and manufacturing the molds to manufacture the
> housing runs into hundreds of thousands of dollars. If it were so easy then
> everyone would be doing it. They aren't.
> Tommy
> 
> 
> 
> 
> _______________________________________________
> Blinux-list mailing list
> Blinux-list@redhat.com
> https://listman.redhat.com/mailman/listinfo/blinux-list
> 

-- 
	
				Janina Sajka, Director
				Technology Research and Development
				Governmental Relations Group
				American Foundation for the Blind (AFB)

Email: janina@afb.net		Phone: (202) 408-8175

Chair, Accessibility SIG
Open Electronic Book Forum (OEBF)
http://www.openebook.org

Will electronic books surpass print books? Read our white paper,
Surpassing Gutenberg, at http://www.afb.org/ebook.asp

Download a free sample Digital Talking Book edition of Martin Luther
King Jr's inspiring "I Have A Dream" speech at
http://www.afb.org/mlkweb.asp

Learn how to make accessible software at
http://www.afb.org/accessapp.asp

Re: the Papenmeir device that was supposed to be coming out

[Tommy Craig]

One last post. I am not part of the development team so I'm not really
qualified to answer exactly what went into the development. You see although
I am fairly technical and I have been working in this field for a number of
years I couldn't build one. I think the best way for you to get your
questions answered is to actually spend the time and look at a unit.

    I didn't get into this discussion to start a feud. I don't control the
pricing and neither do you. I tried to answer a question concerning the
shipping time for the unit. I am also happy to answer any productive
questions that people might have. I am not willing to spend my time arguing
about something that accomplishes absolutely nothing. All I would ask is
that if you are interested in a Notetaker with a Braille display that you
give the ELBA a look. Compare it to the other devices that are available,
including comparing prices and pick the one that is right for you. That's
the real world. I feel very strongly that if you do this you'll see that the
ELBA is a good product at a competitive price.
Tommy

Re: the Papenmeir device that was supposed to be coming out

[A. R. Vener]

Janine,

What don't you buy? Other than the Kurzweil reader I mean ? :-)

Sure Kurzweil came down in price. 

That's the market forces at work.   

Here's how it goes. At $10,000 a smack it is worth Arkenstones
time and effort to come out with a comnpeting product which they
can sell at half the price.  What does Kurzweiler do? Do they
walk away from this market or do they cut their prices and take a 
smaller profit?    They take a smaller profit of course. They cut
costs as needed and adjust to the new market conditions (i.e. a 
competitor).

If you are convinced that Blazie products overcharges and has a poor
quality product it is your right to compete against them with something
better at a lower cost.  Or it is your right to not buy their product. 
It is their right to charge whatever they want for their product.  Once again
it is  the market forces which  drive the price. Obviously there
were enough customers willing to pay their price. Just
as obviously their price was not so staggeringly high that it
invited immediate competition.

As far as Blazie's business model, obviously it was a good one
if they could afford corporate jets.  Beleive it or not, this too is 
not wrong. This is how private enterprise works and it does a damn good
job of providing the goods and services that customers need and want. 


You talk about the component parts of a product as if they were the
sum total of the product. They aren't.   Take some flour, sugar and apples.
Total cost of maybe fifty cents, but an experienced baker can turn those
items into a mouth watering pie, while if they were given to me, I'd probably
turn them into a product  worthy of the trash can. 

If you think Papenmeyer (sp?) is overpriced, feel free
to go into competetion with them using the freely available 
software and hardware components you itemized in your last post.

Who knows.  The competition may drive the price down.


Rudy


On Tue, Nov 13, 2001 at 05:34:42PM -0500, Janina Sajka wrote:
> I don't buy it. Once upon a time Kurzweil scanning systems cost $10,000 
> U.S. My employer, American Foundation for the Blind, worked with Kurzweil 
> to develop a loan program whereby blind people could buy this wonderful 
> technology. Fortunately, before we issued very many $10K loans, Arkenstone 
> came along at about $5,000. Immediately, Kurzweil figured out how to sell 
> its systems at the lower price. Of course, this was many years ago, but I 
> don't believe things have changed that muhc.
> 
> For years, Blazie was the only game in town. So, they sold and sold, and 
> neglected to innovate. Thus, today's Blazie based devices are still little 
> more than mid-1980's technologies. Yet there prices have not dropped. 
> Regretably, the newer crop of devices seem to prefer holding the line on 
> price. I don't accept that. It's a travesty, in my view, as proven by the 
> Blazie folks who managed to get a couple of company Lear jets before 
> selling to Freedom Scientific for $15 Million.
> 
> I've heard this all before, but what's so darned proprietary in these 
> products? The processors? Heck no. The memory? No, again. Perhaps the 
> ethernet and modem and parallel ports? No, again. Maybe the software? Not 
> speakup, which is free, or brltty, which is free, nor the os, which is 
> free, nor, likely, most of software inside the unit. 
> 
> So, I'm left with the box itself and its keys, and the marketing. But, the 
> parts involved cost less, and the price hasn't come down. That's wrong, 
> just plain wrong.
>  On Tue, 13 Nov 2001, A. R. Vener wrote:
> 
> > 

Re: the Papenmeir device that was supposed to be coming out

[David Poehlman]

I just want to lay the market on the table here.  The difference between
mainstream products and those that are used for assistive purposes is
that many more mainstream products are sold directly to the user while
in many cases, those who use the blindness products have them foisted
upon them by agencies who make the decisions because they hold the purse
strings.  There are many good products out there that never see the
light of day here in the us because the agencies plain refuse to accept
them.  By agency, I referr here to entities that purchase for...  It is
not often that an individual who is blind here in this country is
allowed to decide how the agency spends its money.  If this were the
case, we'd see many more braille displays here and I should know because
I saw many people wanting and being denied them.

----- Original Message -----
From: "A. R. Vener" <salt@aero-vision.com>
To: <blinux-list@redhat.com>
Sent: Tuesday, November 13, 2001 6:43 PM
Subject: Re: the Papenmeir device that was supposed to be coming out


Janine,

What don't you buy? Other than the Kurzweil reader I mean ? :-)

Sure Kurzweil came down in price.

That's the market forces at work.

Here's how it goes. At $10,000 a smack it is worth Arkenstones
time and effort to come out with a comnpeting product which they
can sell at half the price.  What does Kurzweiler do? Do they
walk away from this market or do they cut their prices and take a
smaller profit?    They take a smaller profit of course. They cut
costs as needed and adjust to the new market conditions (i.e. a
competitor).

If you are convinced that Blazie products overcharges and has a poor
quality product it is your right to compete against them with something
better at a lower cost.  Or it is your right to not buy their product.
It is their right to charge whatever they want for their product.  Once
again
it is  the market forces which  drive the price. Obviously there
were enough customers willing to pay their price. Just
as obviously their price was not so staggeringly high that it
invited immediate competition.

As far as Blazie's business model, obviously it was a good one
if they could afford corporate jets.  Beleive it or not, this too is
not wrong. This is how private enterprise works and it does a damn good
job of providing the goods and services that customers need and want.


You talk about the component parts of a product as if they were the
sum total of the product. They aren't.   Take some flour, sugar and
apples.
Total cost of maybe fifty cents, but an experienced baker can turn those
items into a mouth watering pie, while if they were given to me, I'd
probably
turn them into a product  worthy of the trash can.

If you think Papenmeyer (sp?) is overpriced, feel free
to go into competetion with them using the freely available
software and hardware components you itemized in your last post.

Who knows.  The competition may drive the price down.


Rudy


On Tue, Nov 13, 2001 at 05:34:42PM -0500, Janina Sajka wrote:
> I don't buy it. Once upon a time Kurzweil scanning systems cost
$10,000
> U.S. My employer, American Foundation for the Blind, worked with
Kurzweil
> to develop a loan program whereby blind people could buy this
wonderful
> technology. Fortunately, before we issued very many $10K loans,
Arkenstone
> came along at about $5,000. Immediately, Kurzweil figured out how to
sell
> its systems at the lower price. Of course, this was many years ago,
but I
> don't believe things have changed that muhc.
>
> For years, Blazie was the only game in town. So, they sold and sold,
and
> neglected to innovate. Thus, today's Blazie based devices are still
little
> more than mid-1980's technologies. Yet there prices have not dropped.
> Regretably, the newer crop of devices seem to prefer holding the line
on
> price. I don't accept that. It's a travesty, in my view, as proven by
the
> Blazie folks who managed to get a couple of company Lear jets before
> selling to Freedom Scientific for $15 Million.
>
> I've heard this all before, but what's so darned proprietary in these
> products? The processors? Heck no. The memory? No, again. Perhaps the
> ethernet and modem and parallel ports? No, again. Maybe the software?
Not
> speakup, which is free, or brltty, which is free, nor the os, which is
> free, nor, likely, most of software inside the unit.
>
> So, I'm left with the box itself and its keys, and the marketing. But,
the
> parts involved cost less, and the price hasn't come down. That's
wrong,
> just plain wrong.
>  On Tue, 13 Nov 2001, A. R. Vener wrote:
>
> >



_______________________________________________
Blinux-list mailing list
Blinux-list@redhat.com
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Re: the Papenmeir device that was supposed to be coming out

[Saqib Shaikh]

Hi,

I'm talking here as a very poor student who has had to fight for all the
equipment he has got.  However, the whole argument that other Linux screen
readers should be free because Speakup is, and that Papenmeier should cut
prices is all a bit silly.  I would *love* to have one of these products.
But at the same time GNU themselves say that Free software means free in
terms of freedom, not money.  So Papenmeier are perfectly within the terms
of the GPL in charging for their product.  Sure, it'd be a nice thing to see
a speech-only version, but maybe in Germany there isn't the demand.  I agree
that some products, particularly software products, are way over priced, but
in this case when you consider the high price of braille, plus the licensing
fees for the software synthesiser which I think is made form Elan, the
hardware is quite pricy.

Now, I'm making these numbers up, but lets say they sold a few hundred units
and made a few hundred profit on each (unlikely) and then have paid for the
overheads, how much money is going to be left for the poor employees who
must pretty good at computing to come up with the best note taker for the
blind ever!

So in summary, there are certain companies who make software products that
haven't been updated for three or four years, but still retail at £300, and
this is silly since no money has been put into maintainance in that time.
However while as a student I really really really want this new note taker,
one day I also want to work for a company and support a family.

So you all have the right to your opinions, but I thought it was time I
expressed mine.

Thanks, Saqib Shaikh

Quitting (was: Re: the Papenmeir device that was supposed to be coming out)

[S. Massy]

Well, this mailing list has grown to have a much too heavy traffic and
low content quality for me, so I'm leaving; it's sad, because I feel
that such list is legitimate, or would be if people in general were a
bit more responsible.

Suggestion: I'd much appreciate to see a blinux-list-moderated or even
just a blinux-announce some time.

Regards,
S. Massy

Re: Quitting (was: Re: the Papenmeir device that was supposed to be coming out)

[David Poehlman]

Oh come on, this list goes through lots of quiet spells, it will quiet
down in a bit again.

Re: the Papenmeir device that was supposed to be coming out

[Brent Harding]

Well, suppose the interface they give you, they have to program some and
put things together. I think a lot of it is companies know that
organizations exist with money to help get us the technology, sometimes. 
Oh yes, linux is the only OS we can install ourself without CD keys.
At 05:34 PM 11/13/01 -0500, you wrote:
>I don't buy it. Once upon a time Kurzweil scanning systems cost $10,000 
>U.S. My employer, American Foundation for the Blind, worked with Kurzweil 
>to develop a loan program whereby blind people could buy this wonderful 
>technology. Fortunately, before we issued very many $10K loans, Arkenstone 
>came along at about $5,000. Immediately, Kurzweil figured out how to sell 
>its systems at the lower price. Of course, this was many years ago, but I 
>don't believe things have changed that muhc.
>
>For years, Blazie was the only game in town. So, they sold and sold, and 
>neglected to innovate. Thus, today's Blazie based devices are still little 
>more than mid-1980's technologies. Yet there prices have not dropped. 
>Regretably, the newer crop of devices seem to prefer holding the line on 
>price. I don't accept that. It's a travesty, in my view, as proven by the 
>Blazie folks who managed to get a couple of company Lear jets before 
>selling to Freedom Scientific for $15 Million.
>
>I've heard this all before, but what's so darned proprietary in these 
>products? The processors? Heck no. The memory? No, again. Perhaps the 
>ethernet and modem and parallel ports? No, again. Maybe the software? Not 
>speakup, which is free, or brltty, which is free, nor the os, which is 
>free, nor, likely, most of software inside the unit. 
>
>So, I'm left with the box itself and its keys, and the marketing. But, the 
>parts involved cost less, and the price hasn't come down. That's wrong, 
>just plain wrong.
> On Tue, 13 Nov 2001, A. R. Vener wrote:
>
>> 
>> Janina,
>> 
>> He gave you one. Assistive technology aims for a low quantity 
>> market.  If there were milions of blind people pounding on the
>> doors to buy this product, competition would pick up, prices would drop
>> and market forces would determine the cost.  This doesn't happen
>> with assistive technology. The market is small, the prices must
>> be set to allow the small customer base (which is businesses and
>> rehab programs, NOT the end user) to cover research and development
>> costs, marketing costs, business overhead and a profit.  
>> 
>> Yes, that ugly old P word. Much as some people gnash their teeth and
>> raise their voices in fury, nonetheless profit is the only real market
>> motivator that allows assistive hardware technology to be developed.
>> 
>> There's a lot that goes into any commercial product. The fact that they
>> use Linux probably helps keep the price down, but there are still
>> software development costs, hardware development costs, packaging costs,
>> marketing costs, administrative costs.   
>> 
>> This isn't Woz and Jobs in their garage selling a hand made 
>> gizmo that they packed into an aluminum hobby box they got from
>> radio shack. It is a commercial product that required physical design,
electrical
>> design, UL Lab testing, FCC Class B RF emission certification, marketing
>> support, administration support, engineering supprot and so forth and
>> so on.  All of it pricey. All of it having to be recovered from sales. 
>> 
>> And not very many sales at that.  
>> 
>> Computer prices have done down because they sell in the
>> tens of millions, even hundreds of millions these days. 
>> 
>> This product is not going to sell a million.
>> 
>> 
>> Rudy
>> 
>> 
>> 
>> 
>> 
>> 
>> 
>> 
>> 
>> 
>> On Tue, Nov 13, 2001 at 04:23:48PM -0500, Janina Sajka wrote:
>> > Tommy, wait a minute here, computers cost less today across the board.
If 
>> > we believe what you say, that we get what we pay for, then they should
be 
>> > poorer computers, not more powerful ones. This just isn't the case.
>> > 
>> > So, why are computer prices coming down everywhere except assistive 
>> > technology, where they're going up? I understand about refreshable
braille 
>> > displays. I don't understand at all about the rest of it. The 
>> > Papenmeier/Alva web page points out that much linux software is free or 
>> > low cost. So, are you guys packaging free software and charging more for 
>> > it? Please, this price needs an honest explanation.
>> > 
>> 
>> 
>> 
>> _______________________________________________
>> Blinux-list mailing list
>> Blinux-list@redhat.com
>> https://listman.redhat.com/mailman/listinfo/blinux-list
>> 
>
>-- 
>	
>				Janina Sajka, Director
>				Technology Research and Development
>				Governmental Relations Group
>				American Foundation for the Blind (AFB)
>
>Email: janina@afb.net		Phone: (202) 408-8175
>
>Chair, Accessibility SIG
>Open Electronic Book Forum (OEBF)
>http://www.openebook.org
>
>Will electronic books surpass print books? Read our white paper,
>Surpassing Gutenberg, at http://www.afb.org/ebook.asp
>
>Download a free sample Digital Talking Book edition of Martin Luther
>King Jr's inspiring "I Have A Dream" speech at
>http://www.afb.org/mlkweb.asp
>
>Learn how to make accessible software at
>http://www.afb.org/accessapp.asp
>
>
>
>_______________________________________________
>Blinux-list mailing list
>Blinux-list@redhat.com
>https://listman.redhat.com/mailman/listinfo/blinux-list
>
>

Re: the Papenmeir device that was supposed to be coming out

[Brent Harding]

Probably all of it, the braille display of course. The way it's designed
and what's in it. Blazie probably developed 99% or more of theirs from the
ground up, the oS, the processor, all the chips in it, quite a lot for a
niche market.
At 05:39 PM 11/13/01 -0500, you wrote:
>Tommy, what did Papenmeier/Alva develop on this product? The OS? The 
>telecomm progs that talk modem and ethernet? Maybe the word fileformat 
>converters? Perhaps the calendars? What?
>
> On Tue, 13 Nov 2001, Tommy Craig 
>wrote:
>
>> Well I guess I didn't make my point very well. The reason prices on
>> computers are dropping is because they are sold by the hundreds of
>> thousands. For example, Dell computers sells more computers in one hour
than
>> A blindness company is likely to sell in five years. When a manufacturer
>> develops a new product it cost a lot of money in or&d. It takes months if
>> not years to developed a new product line and it takes a team of dedicated
>> and talented people to do it. These people don't work for free. As a matter
>> of fact they usually get paid very well. It also cost an amazing amount to
>> make test models and to developed a case to put it all in. If Dell spends
>> $800,000 to developed a new product and it sells 100000 of them, it only
>> cost them $8 per unit to developed it. If on the other hand a blindness
>> company spends $800,000 to developed a new product and only sells a
thousand
>> of them, then it cost $800 per unit to developed it. Also manufacturing
cost
>> are much less when you produce tens of thousands of something than when you
>> produce hundreds of units.
>> 
>>     The next area of course is sales and support. If you go to Office Depot
>> and buy a computer, the salesperson spends maybe ten minutes with you,
takes
>> your money and you go home and will probably never see that person again.
>> When I sell a product, It is usually after making a trip to see the
>> individual, in many cases tens or hundreds of miles away. Once I get to the
>> person, I usually spend at least a couple of hours showing the product,
>> answering questions and teaching the person at least the basics of how to
>> use the device. Then once I make the sale, I usually spend time on the
phone
>> answering questions and helping the user get the most out of their product.
>> I'm not complaining. I believe that I owe it to my customers to make sure
>> they have the best experience possible with my products, but it is still a
>> far different relationship than people have with their department store.
>> 
>>     You also state that the price of Braille displays is not dropping
but is
>> instead increasing. This is certainly not the case. When I first started
>> working with Papenmeier displays, the IB-80 cost around $18,000. Now a
>> comparable model sells for around $10,000. It's still not cheap, but it is
>> certainly less expensive than it used to be. We have also increased the
>> reliability of our products. For example, back then you got a one year
>> warranty, now our displays come with a three year warranty. This is also
>> just the opposite of what most companies are doing. For example, Dell used
>> to provide a three year warranty with all of their systems. They now
offer a
>> one year warranty and charge extra for additional years.
>> 
>>     Don't get me wrong. I do wish the products I sell were much cheaper. I
>> would love to see the price cut in half or even better. I don't believe it
>> will happen anytime soon though. You also ask about the statement
concerning
>> Linux software. The point is that with the ELBA you will be able to run off
>> the shelf software that is free or very inexpensive. You can download a
>> title and use it instead of or in addition to what we provide.
>> Tommy
>> 
>> 
>> 
>> _______________________________________________
>> Blinux-list mailing list
>> Blinux-list@redhat.com
>> https://listman.redhat.com/mailman/listinfo/blinux-list
>> 
>
>-- 
>	
>				Janina Sajka, Director
>				Technology Research and Development
>				Governmental Relations Group
>				American Foundation for the Blind (AFB)
>
>Email: janina@afb.net		Phone: (202) 408-8175
>
>Chair, Accessibility SIG
>Open Electronic Book Forum (OEBF)
>http://www.openebook.org
>
>Will electronic books surpass print books? Read our white paper,
>Surpassing Gutenberg, at http://www.afb.org/ebook.asp
>
>Download a free sample Digital Talking Book edition of Martin Luther
>King Jr's inspiring "I Have A Dream" speech at
>http://www.afb.org/mlkweb.asp
>
>Learn how to make accessible software at
>http://www.afb.org/accessapp.asp
>
>
>
>_______________________________________________
>Blinux-list mailing list
>Blinux-list@redhat.com
>https://listman.redhat.com/mailman/listinfo/blinux-list
>
>

Re: the Papenmeir device that was supposed to be coming out

[Brent Harding]

I've read braille since I was little, but the first computers I used were
with speech only. I probably didn't know about refreshable braille that
long ago, it was a big thing at school to have the teachers able to braille
stuff on one of those old braille embossers that also put print underneath
for sighted people to follow, that was high tech in it's day. Using a
braille lite for a short time while the braille 'n speak was being repaired
was cool, definitely like it, but got used to speech first.
At 05:55 PM 11/13/01 -0500, you wrote:
>I have also found that using an 80 character display is ore productive.
>it seems that the more you can get within the grasp of your fingertips
>at a time, the better it is.  It does take some effort though if you are
>used to doing things with speech. When I first started ut in dos, I
>started with braille.  I hated going to speech but was forced to it by
>circumstanc.  It's even better when yu use the display for navigation in
>real time in addition to reading  I can read a line and snap right to
>something that needs fixing without having to fiddle with keys to do it.
>I can do other things while working on the computer with braille but not
>with speech so that makes me more productive.  I have been reading
>braille since 1956.
>
>----- Original Message -----
>From: "Tommy Craig" <tecraig@earthlink.net>
>To: <blinux-list@redhat.com>
>Sent: Tuesday, November 13, 2001 5:44 PM
>Subject: Re: the Papenmeir device that was supposed to be coming out
>
>
>Hi Luke,
>
>    I certainly didn't intend to offend anyone either. I do believe that
>statistically though I am on safe ground. One statistic is that 80% of
>blind
>people are unemployed and that 80% of the ones who are employed are
>Braille
>users. I based my statements on my experience and on the people I have
>worked with and trained throughout the years. Of course there are
>exceptions
>to every rule. I also believe that there is a huge difference in the
>Braille
>display you are using. For example, using an eighty character display is
>much more productive than using a 20 or 40 cell display.
>Tommy
>
>
>
>_______________________________________________
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>
>
>
>_______________________________________________
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>Blinux-list@redhat.com
>https://listman.redhat.com/mailman/listinfo/blinux-list
>
>

Re: the Papenmeir device that was supposed to be coming out

[Brent Harding]

What kind of synthesizer does it use for speech? Does it have line in and
out for recording stuff with it?
Can extra software be added?
At 05:36 PM 11/13/01 -0600, you wrote:
>One last post. I am not part of the development team so I'm not really
>qualified to answer exactly what went into the development. You see although
>I am fairly technical and I have been working in this field for a number of
>years I couldn't build one. I think the best way for you to get your
>questions answered is to actually spend the time and look at a unit.
>
>    I didn't get into this discussion to start a feud. I don't control the
>pricing and neither do you. I tried to answer a question concerning the
>shipping time for the unit. I am also happy to answer any productive
>questions that people might have. I am not willing to spend my time arguing
>about something that accomplishes absolutely nothing. All I would ask is
>that if you are interested in a Notetaker with a Braille display that you
>give the ELBA a look. Compare it to the other devices that are available,
>including comparing prices and pick the one that is right for you. That's
>the real world. I feel very strongly that if you do this you'll see that the
>ELBA is a good product at a competitive price.
>Tommy
>
>
>
>
>_______________________________________________
>Blinux-list mailing list
>Blinux-list@redhat.com
>https://listman.redhat.com/mailman/listinfo/blinux-list
>
>

Re: the Papenmeir device that was supposed to be coming out

[Tommy Craig]

Yes you can use your own software. As for line in and out, It definately has
line out. I don't believe that it has line in. It does have a built in
microphone.
Tommy

RE: the Papenmeir device that was supposed to be coming out

[Joel Zimba]

speaking of linux machines,  I expect to have a chance to poke around with
one of the new sharp pda gizmos in the next couple of weeks.
it's prime advantage being the presence of a keyboard (thumboard)  and not
having to flash linux onto it yourself.

I'm unclear as to the status of things like the tts from qt-embedded and
some of the other schemes for generating speech, but one of the forums I've
seen recently talked about the sharp reading someone's email to them.
that's a good sign.

J

-----Original Message-----
From: blinux-list-admin@redhat.com
[mailto:blinux-list-admin@redhat.com]On Behalf Of Tommy Craig
Sent: Wednesday, November 14, 2001 12:14 AM
To: blinux-list@redhat.com
Subject: Re: the Papenmeir device that was supposed to be coming out


Yes you can use your own software. As for line in and out, It definately has
line out. I don't believe that it has line in. It does have a built in
microphone.
Tommy




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Re: the Papenmeir device that was supposed to be coming out

[David Poehlman]

oh, that reminds me, humanware/pulsedata have the keynote companion
which is pretty small.

----- Original Message -----
From: "Joel Zimba" <jzimba@erols.com>
To: <blinux-list@redhat.com>
Sent: Wednesday, November 14, 2001 7:52 AM
Subject: RE: the Papenmeir device that was supposed to be coming out


speaking of linux machines,  I expect to have a chance to poke around
with
one of the new sharp pda gizmos in the next couple of weeks.
it's prime advantage being the presence of a keyboard (thumboard)  and
not
having to flash linux onto it yourself.

I'm unclear as to the status of things like the tts from qt-embedded and
some of the other schemes for generating speech, but one of the forums
I've
seen recently talked about the sharp reading someone's email to them.
that's a good sign.

J

-----Original Message-----
From: blinux-list-admin@redhat.com
[mailto:blinux-list-admin@redhat.com]On Behalf Of Tommy Craig
Sent: Wednesday, November 14, 2001 12:14 AM
To: blinux-list@redhat.com
Subject: Re: the Papenmeir device that was supposed to be coming out


Yes you can use your own software. As for line in and out, It definately
has
line out. I don't believe that it has line in. It does have a built in
microphone.
Tommy




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Re: the Papenmeir device that was supposed to be coming out

[Janina Sajka]

I don't mind the lack of line in. For serious audio work you'd want to use 
the pcm slot with a device like the RME Hammerfalls DSP.


On Tue, 13 Nov 2001, Tommy Craig wrote:

> Yes you can use your own software. As for line in and out, It definately has
> line out. I don't believe that it has line in. It does have a built in
> microphone.
> Tommy
> 
> 
> 
> 
> _______________________________________________
> Blinux-list mailing list
> Blinux-list@redhat.com
> https://listman.redhat.com/mailman/listinfo/blinux-list
> 

-- 
	
				Janina Sajka, Director
				Technology Research and Development
				Governmental Relations Group
				American Foundation for the Blind (AFB)

Email: janina@afb.net		Phone: (202) 408-8175

Chair, Accessibility SIG
Open Electronic Book Forum (OEBF)
http://www.openebook.org

Will electronic books surpass print books? Read our white paper,
Surpassing Gutenberg, at http://www.afb.org/ebook.asp

Download a free sample Digital Talking Book edition of Martin Luther
King Jr's inspiring "I Have A Dream" speech at
http://www.afb.org/mlkweb.asp

Learn how to make accessible software at
http://www.afb.org/accessapp.asp

Re: the Papenmeir device that was supposed to be coming out

[philwh]

Blazie did not design the processor or chips.
they used off the shelf processor, and off the shelf chips.
What costs the most is the development time for the
os, and design and debugging of the
pc board and case.
You wouldn't believe how much it costs to make the molds for
the case, and the cell caps for the braille display.
for the blazie mellennium 20,
it took many months to build the mods for the cell caps.
I would say it probably costs them $100,000 for the cell caps alone,
not to mention the cases for the typelite, and the 2 different mellennium
units.

phil

On Tue, Nov 13, 2001 at 10:29:18PM -0600, Brent Harding wrote:
> Probably all of it, the braille display of course. The way it's designed
> and what's in it. Blazie probably developed 99% or more of theirs from the
> ground up, the oS, the processor, all the chips in it, quite a lot for a
> niche market.
> At 05:39 PM 11/13/01 -0500, you wrote:
> >Tommy, what did Papenmeier/Alva develop on this product? The OS? The 
> >telecomm progs that talk modem and ethernet? Maybe the word fileformat 
> >converters? Perhaps the calendars? What?
> >
> > On Tue, 13 Nov 2001, Tommy Craig 
> >wrote:
> >
> >> Well I guess I didn't make my point very well. The reason prices on
> >> computers are dropping is because they are sold by the hundreds of
> >> thousands. For example, Dell computers sells more computers in one hour
> than
> >> A blindness company is likely to sell in five years. When a manufacturer
> >> develops a new product it cost a lot of money in or&d. It takes months if
> >> not years to developed a new product line and it takes a team of dedicated
> >> and talented people to do it. These people don't work for free. As a matter
> >> of fact they usually get paid very well. It also cost an amazing amount to
> >> make test models and to developed a case to put it all in. If Dell spends
> >> $800,000 to developed a new product and it sells 100000 of them, it only
> >> cost them $8 per unit to developed it. If on the other hand a blindness
> >> company spends $800,000 to developed a new product and only sells a
> thousand
> >> of them, then it cost $800 per unit to developed it. Also manufacturing
> cost
> >> are much less when you produce tens of thousands of something than when you
> >> produce hundreds of units.
> >> 
> >>     The next area of course is sales and support. If you go to Office Depot
> >> and buy a computer, the salesperson spends maybe ten minutes with you,
> takes
> >> your money and you go home and will probably never see that person again.
> >> When I sell a product, It is usually after making a trip to see the
> >> individual, in many cases tens or hundreds of miles away. Once I get to the
> >> person, I usually spend at least a couple of hours showing the product,
> >> answering questions and teaching the person at least the basics of how to
> >> use the device. Then once I make the sale, I usually spend time on the
> phone
> >> answering questions and helping the user get the most out of their product.
> >> I'm not complaining. I believe that I owe it to my customers to make sure
> >> they have the best experience possible with my products, but it is still a
> >> far different relationship than people have with their department store.
> >> 
> >>     You also state that the price of Braille displays is not dropping
> but is
> >> instead increasing. This is certainly not the case. When I first started
> >> working with Papenmeier displays, the IB-80 cost around $18,000. Now a
> >> comparable model sells for around $10,000. It's still not cheap, but it is
> >> certainly less expensive than it used to be. We have also increased the
> >> reliability of our products. For example, back then you got a one year
> >> warranty, now our displays come with a three year warranty. This is also
> >> just the opposite of what most companies are doing. For example, Dell used
> >> to provide a three year warranty with all of their systems. They now
> offer a
> >> one year warranty and charge extra for additional years.
> >> 
> >>     Don't get me wrong. I do wish the products I sell were much cheaper. I
> >> would love to see the price cut in half or even better. I don't believe it
> >> will happen anytime soon though. You also ask about the statement
> concerning
> >> Linux software. The point is that with the ELBA you will be able to run off
> >> the shelf software that is free or very inexpensive. You can download a
> >> title and use it instead of or in addition to what we provide.
> >> Tommy
> >> 
> >> 
> >> 
> >> _______________________________________________
> >> Blinux-list mailing list
> >> Blinux-list@redhat.com
> >> https://listman.redhat.com/mailman/listinfo/blinux-list
> >> 
> >
> >-- 
> >	
> >				Janina Sajka, Director
> >				Technology Research and Development
> >				Governmental Relations Group
> >				American Foundation for the Blind (AFB)
> >
> >Email: janina@afb.net		Phone: (202) 408-8175
> >
> >Chair, Accessibility SIG
> >Open Electronic Book Forum (OEBF)
> >http://www.openebook.org
> >
> >Will electronic books surpass print books? Read our white paper,
> >Surpassing Gutenberg, at http://www.afb.org/ebook.asp
> >
> >Download a free sample Digital Talking Book edition of Martin Luther
> >King Jr's inspiring "I Have A Dream" speech at
> >http://www.afb.org/mlkweb.asp
> >
> >Learn how to make accessible software at
> >http://www.afb.org/accessapp.asp
> >
> >
> >
> >_______________________________________________
> >Blinux-list mailing list
> >Blinux-list@redhat.com
> >https://listman.redhat.com/mailman/listinfo/blinux-list
> >
> >
> 
> 
> 
> _______________________________________________
> Blinux-list mailing list
> Blinux-list@redhat.com
> https://listman.redhat.com/mailman/listinfo/blinux-list

Re: the Papenmeir device that was supposed to be coming out

[Brent Harding]

Wow, so it has compilers and the like, I can just install away like I do on
a normal linux box?
At 11:13 PM 11/13/01 -0600, you wrote:
>Yes you can use your own software. As for line in and out, It definately has
>line out. I don't believe that it has line in. It does have a built in
>microphone.
>Tommy
>
>
>
>
>_______________________________________________
>Blinux-list mailing list
>Blinux-list@redhat.com
>https://listman.redhat.com/mailman/listinfo/blinux-list
>
>

Re: the Papenmeir device that was supposed to be coming out

[Brent Harding]

Wow, would that likely work in the system's linux support? My laptop isn't
working real good for audio, as the dectalk feeds an overtone in to the
system whenever it's port is accessed, even when pulling the cable out and
all. The port must be giving the noise.
At 09:52 AM 11/14/01 -0500, you wrote:
>I don't mind the lack of line in. For serious audio work you'd want to use 
>the pcm slot with a device like the RME Hammerfalls DSP.
>
>
>On Tue, 13 Nov 2001, Tommy Craig wrote:
>
>> Yes you can use your own software. As for line in and out, It definately
has
>> line out. I don't believe that it has line in. It does have a built in
>> microphone.
>> Tommy
>> 
>> 
>> 
>> 
>> _______________________________________________
>> Blinux-list mailing list
>> Blinux-list@redhat.com
>> https://listman.redhat.com/mailman/listinfo/blinux-list
>> 
>
>-- 
>	
>				Janina Sajka, Director
>				Technology Research and Development
>				Governmental Relations Group
>				American Foundation for the Blind (AFB)
>
>Email: janina@afb.net		Phone: (202) 408-8175
>
>Chair, Accessibility SIG
>Open Electronic Book Forum (OEBF)
>http://www.openebook.org
>
>Will electronic books surpass print books? Read our white paper,
>Surpassing Gutenberg, at http://www.afb.org/ebook.asp
>
>Download a free sample Digital Talking Book edition of Martin Luther
>King Jr's inspiring "I Have A Dream" speech at
>http://www.afb.org/mlkweb.asp
>
>Learn how to make accessible software at
>http://www.afb.org/accessapp.asp
>
>
>
>_______________________________________________
>Blinux-list mailing list
>Blinux-list@redhat.com
>https://listman.redhat.com/mailman/listinfo/blinux-list
>
>

Re: the Papenmeir device that was supposed to be coming out

[philwh]

Hi.
I would be surprised if it has a compiler considering the limited
ram and flash space.
perhaps with an external hard drive.
you could always install a cross compiler
on your desktop machine and compile software for it
if it doesn't come with a compiler.
remember, it uses the strongarm processor.

phil

On Wed, Nov 14, 2001 at 11:33:28AM -0600, Brent Harding wrote:
> Wow, so it has compilers and the like, I can just install away like I do on
> a normal linux box?
> At 11:13 PM 11/13/01 -0600, you wrote:
> >Yes you can use your own software. As for line in and out, It definately has
> >line out. I don't believe that it has line in. It does have a built in
> >microphone.
> >Tommy
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >_______________________________________________
> >Blinux-list mailing list
> >Blinux-list@redhat.com
> >https://listman.redhat.com/mailman/listinfo/blinux-list
> >
> >
> 
> 
> 
> _______________________________________________
> Blinux-list mailing list
> Blinux-list@redhat.com
> https://listman.redhat.com/mailman/listinfo/blinux-list

Re: the Papenmeir device that was supposed to be coming out

[Tommy Craig]

the ELBA will have a compiler available for it. It will not come as standard
with the unit though. Also obviously, it is a palm top and not a full blown
laptop. This restricts the amount of memory that is available. However, you
will be able to use off the shelf products such as microdrives for storage.
The latest one that I've seen is by Toshiba, it has 5gb of storage and sells
for around $399. Of course they also have smaller and less expensive models.
Tommy

Re: the Papenmeir device that was supposed to be coming out

[Janina Sajka]

Of course it would. If it is supported in linux, it'll run wherever you 
have linux--with the appropriate support modules installed, of course. We 
don't know, for example, how complete the Papenmeier linux installation 
is. For example, I would rather doubt they've installed gnome and kde, but 
I've been wrong before.
 On Wed, 14 Nov 2001, Brent Harding wrote:

> Wow, would that likely work in the system's linux support? My laptop isn't
> working real good for audio, as the dectalk feeds an overtone in to the
> system whenever it's port is accessed, even when pulling the cable out and
> all. The port must be giving the noise.
> At 09:52 AM 11/14/01 -0500, you wrote:
> >I don't mind the lack of line in. For serious audio work you'd want to use 
> >the pcm slot with a device like the RME Hammerfalls DSP.
> >
> >
> >On Tue, 13 Nov 2001, Tommy Craig wrote:
> >
> >> Yes you can use your own software. As for line in and out, It definately
> has
> >> line out. I don't believe that it has line in. It does have a built in
> >> microphone.
> >> Tommy
> >> 
> >> 
> >> 
> >> 
> >> _______________________________________________
> >> Blinux-list mailing list
> >> Blinux-list@redhat.com
> >> https://listman.redhat.com/mailman/listinfo/blinux-list
> >> 
> >
> >-- 
> >	
> >				Janina Sajka, Director
> >				Technology Research and Development
> >				Governmental Relations Group
> >				American Foundation for the Blind (AFB)
> >
> >Email: janina@afb.net		Phone: (202) 408-8175
> >
> >Chair, Accessibility SIG
> >Open Electronic Book Forum (OEBF)
> >http://www.openebook.org
> >
> >Will electronic books surpass print books? Read our white paper,
> >Surpassing Gutenberg, at http://www.afb.org/ebook.asp
> >
> >Download a free sample Digital Talking Book edition of Martin Luther
> >King Jr's inspiring "I Have A Dream" speech at
> >http://www.afb.org/mlkweb.asp
> >
> >Learn how to make accessible software at
> >http://www.afb.org/accessapp.asp
> >
> >
> >
> >_______________________________________________
> >Blinux-list mailing list
> >Blinux-list@redhat.com
> >https://listman.redhat.com/mailman/listinfo/blinux-list
> >
> >
> 
> 
> 
> _______________________________________________
> Blinux-list mailing list
> Blinux-list@redhat.com
> https://listman.redhat.com/mailman/listinfo/blinux-list
> 

-- 
	
				Janina Sajka, Director
				Technology Research and Development
				Governmental Relations Group
				American Foundation for the Blind (AFB)

Email: janina@afb.net		Phone: (202) 408-8175

Chair, Accessibility SIG
Open Electronic Book Forum (OEBF)
http://www.openebook.org

Will electronic books surpass print books? Read our white paper,
Surpassing Gutenberg, at http://www.afb.org/ebook.asp

Download a free sample Digital Talking Book edition of Martin Luther
King Jr's inspiring "I Have A Dream" speech at
http://www.afb.org/mlkweb.asp

Learn how to make accessible software at
http://www.afb.org/accessapp.asp

Re: the Papenmeir device that was supposed to be coming out

[Bill Gaughan]

Someone please tell me why all these braille display devices cheap out on
operating systems?

First we had VersaBraille, a great device, but, it had VBOS, and what we
really needed was DOS in a braille box. Then we have the Blazie devices,
which give us only 640 to 2048 of ram. From what I am reading the
Popenmier will have a mini-version of linux comperable to Windows CE in
the windows world? These devices whether they be braille or speech devices
should be using worldly operating systems, not blindy-only proprietary
OS's, and they should be able to run off the shelf software. For example,
BrailleLite should have a pentium chip capable of running DOS at least so
we could run WordPerfect 6.0 on it. I just can't stand it. Blindy always
has to learn a new operating system for each piece of hardware he buys.
Sightlings don't have to do this, except the differences between Macintosh
and PC's.

Enough of my ranting. But, really, what is the problem, here. Is it the
big egos of small companies that can't conceive of the possibility of
designing something without having to program it? Or do the sightling
companies who cater to the general masses really charge too, too, much for
the rights to use general OS's for what they, I am sure, would consider a
limited run, limited edition computer. I am aware that say, a company like
Dell probably sells 5000 computers a week, whereas, if Popenmier sold 5000
Elba's in 2 years, that would probably be a great success. Any thoughts?

Finally, our blind devices always seem to have stone-aged OS's in them by
the time we are able to buy them. The manufacturers of our devices should
be encouraging us to use the same communication tools that sighted
coworkers and friends use, even if these tools are packaged in a different
box that has a braille display instead of a screen with an lcd or led. I
think there is a terrible missunderstanding out there, even among blind
people themselves and the engineers who work on their behalf about
what tools blind people need. We just need access to the same tools
everyone else who is sighted uses, and we need portability, too.

Much appreciation and applause to the engineers and designers for their
dedication and hard work.

-- 
Bill Gaughan
wgaughan@snet.net


On Wed, 14 Nov 2001 philwh@gate.net wrote:

> Hi.
> I would be surprised if it has a compiler considering the limited
> ram and flash space.
> perhaps with an external hard drive.
> you could always install a cross compiler
> on your desktop machine and compile software for it
> if it doesn't come with a compiler.
> remember, it uses the strongarm processor.
>
> phil
>
> On Wed, Nov 14, 2001 at 11:33:28AM -0600, Brent Harding wrote:
> > Wow, so it has compilers and the like, I can just install away like I do on
> > a normal linux box?
> > At 11:13 PM 11/13/01 -0600, you wrote:
> > >Yes you can use your own software. As for line in and out, It definately has
> > >line out. I don't believe that it has line in. It does have a built in
> > >microphone.
> > >Tommy
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >_______________________________________________
> > >Blinux-list mailing list
> > >Blinux-list@redhat.com
> > >https://listman.redhat.com/mailman/listinfo/blinux-list
> > >
> > >
> >
> >
> >
> > _______________________________________________
> > Blinux-list mailing list
> > Blinux-list@redhat.com
> > https://listman.redhat.com/mailman/listinfo/blinux-list
>
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> Blinux-list mailing list
> Blinux-list@redhat.com
> https://listman.redhat.com/mailman/listinfo/blinux-list
>

Re: the Papenmeir device that was supposed to be coming out

[Bill Gaughan]

Why will the Elba have a memory restriction. The Mac Power Book comes with
128 Megs of memory? I believe the IBM Thinkpad does also. Come one, guys,
memory is really cheap, today. I can get a 128 meg chip for $30 or less,
mail order off the web.

-- 
Bill Gaughan
wgaughan@snet.net


On Wed, 14 Nov 2001, Tommy Craig wrote:

> the ELBA will have a compiler available for it. It will not come as standard
> with the unit though. Also obviously, it is a palm top and not a full blown
> laptop. This restricts the amount of memory that is available. However, you
> will be able to use off the shelf products such as microdrives for storage.
> The latest one that I've seen is by Toshiba, it has 5gb of storage and sells
> for around $399. Of course they also have smaller and less expensive models.
> Tommy
>
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> Blinux-list mailing list
> Blinux-list@redhat.com
> https://listman.redhat.com/mailman/listinfo/blinux-list
>

RE: the Papenmeir device that was supposed to be coming out

[Joel Zimba]

presumably any sa1110 cross-compiler would work, but there could be some
reason it woulden't.

in fact, any of the standard distributions of linux should run on it as long
as you can get the bootloader specs and how it does it's boot process.

of course, the braille models might need to know how to understand a brl
keyboard, but the qwerty model should resemble stock arm boards and
connectors other then the lack of visual display...
it should make no difference for the compiler of course.  I woulden't want
to build on the machine itself, just as you don't compile stuff on your
ipaq.  you generate cross-code or multi-platform code and the strip it or
whatever.

the beauty will be in adding a later kernel and seeing it take more recent
cf cards ...  like the support for gps and cellular cards  whch would add
instant functionallity without any intervention from the manufacturer...

this is  in particular contrast to the humanware model where you cant really
do anything with the underlying operating system...

to me, the brlnote is like selling software that is accessible, but not
being able to use windows itself... kinda like the early days of arkenstone
or something...



-----Original Message-----
From: blinux-list-admin@redhat.com
[mailto:blinux-list-admin@redhat.com]On Behalf Of Tommy Craig
Sent: Wednesday, November 14, 2001 1:30 PM
To: blinux-list@redhat.com
Subject: Re: the Papenmeir device that was supposed to be coming out


the ELBA will have a compiler available for it. It will not come as standard
with the unit though. Also obviously, it is a palm top and not a full blown
laptop. This restricts the amount of memory that is available. However, you
will be able to use off the shelf products such as microdrives for storage.
The latest one that I've seen is by Toshiba, it has 5gb of storage and sells
for around $399. Of course they also have smaller and less expensive models.
Tommy



_______________________________________________
Blinux-list mailing list
Blinux-list@redhat.com
https://listman.redhat.com/mailman/listinfo/blinux-list

Re: the Papenmeir device that was supposed to be coming out

[Bill Gaughan]

Just to clarify my point about the OS's further. And to be concise. Using
the PC and PC DOS/Windows os's as an example, what is so, so unthinkable
about a palmtop or laptop that is fully functional with braille and
speech. I have a desktop pc with a DecTalk Express and a PowerBraille 40
running a dual-boot system, linux with brltty and emacspeak and speakup
or DOS/Windows 95 running Window-Eyes 4.1. Why can't something this good
be in a box that small? Sighted people have it with Thinkpad and Mac Power
Book. I don't know what kinds of portable PC run full Linux with X-win?
That's all folks. Your thoughts?


-- 
Bill Gaughan
wgaughan@snet.net


On Wed, 14 Nov 2001, Bill Gaughan wrote:

> Why will the Elba have a memory restriction. The Mac Power Book comes with
> 128 Megs of memory? I believe the IBM Thinkpad does also. Come one, guys,
> memory is really cheap, today. I can get a 128 meg chip for $30 or less,
> mail order off the web.
>
>

Re: the Papenmeir device that was supposed to be coming out

[Janina Sajka]

This is just a guess, but my expectation is that it has to do with the 
processor. I don't know what the Strongarm supports in the way of RAM. I 
do understand that it will run on battery longer, and that's certainly 
important in a device you carry around. Also, it runs off ROM chips so you 
don't wait for it to boot, you power up and it's ready.

2001, Bill Gaughan wrote:

> Why will the Elba have a memory restriction. The Mac Power Book comes with
> 128 Megs of memory? I believe the IBM Thinkpad does also. Come one, guys,
> memory is really cheap, today. I can get a 128 meg chip for $30 or less,
> mail order off the web.
> 
> 

-- 
	
				Janina Sajka, Director
				Technology Research and Development
				Governmental Relations Group
				American Foundation for the Blind (AFB)

Email: janina@afb.net		Phone: (202) 408-8175

Chair, Accessibility SIG
Open Electronic Book Forum (OEBF)
http://www.openebook.org

Will electronic books surpass print books? Read our white paper,
Surpassing Gutenberg, at http://www.afb.org/ebook.asp

Download a free sample Digital Talking Book edition of Martin Luther
King Jr's inspiring "I Have A Dream" speech at
http://www.afb.org/mlkweb.asp

Learn how to make accessible software at
http://www.afb.org/accessapp.asp

Re: the Papenmeir device that was supposed to be coming out

[Tommy Craig]

Hi Bill,

    Well I think you are mixing Apples and oranges. The ELBA is not a
laptop. It is called a notetaker however, I believe it fits the palmtop
category even better. If you look at non blindness products in this
category, you will find that they also have limited memory. I totally agree
with your statement concerning proprietory operating systems. It has been
one of my pet peeves for years. I don't think that Linux falls into this
category though. As a matter of fact I just read a news blurb about a new
palmtop from Sharp that will use Linux. In this case, maybe blind people are
actually leading the way rather than following years behind.

    Btw, Papenmeier as well as at least two other companies have marketed
full blown laptops with a built in Braille display. The Papenmeier models
were called the Notex 486 and the Braillex Compact. Baum marketed a product
called the David and of course there was the SuperBraille. I believe all of
these ran Dos and Windows as well as any other os you wished to put on them.

    Keep in mind what the product is meant to do. It is primarily a
notetaker, It has a lot of really powerful features that make it much more
desirable but it doesn't profess to take the place of your desktop computer.
I do however, believe that it will largely replace my laptop.
Tommy

Re: the Papenmeir device that was supposed to be coming out

[Brent Harding]

Oh, that means that an article I heard of on some embedded linux site would
be followable pretty much, as they were talking about an arm evaluator
board and running stuff with it. There's probably patches available to
build up a cross compiler.
At 01:12 PM 11/14/01 -0500, you wrote:
>Hi.
>I would be surprised if it has a compiler considering the limited
>ram and flash space.
>perhaps with an external hard drive.
>you could always install a cross compiler
>on your desktop machine and compile software for it
>if it doesn't come with a compiler.
>remember, it uses the strongarm processor.
>
>phil
>
>On Wed, Nov 14, 2001 at 11:33:28AM -0600, Brent Harding wrote:
>> Wow, so it has compilers and the like, I can just install away like I do on
>> a normal linux box?
>> At 11:13 PM 11/13/01 -0600, you wrote:
>> >Yes you can use your own software. As for line in and out, It
definately has
>> >line out. I don't believe that it has line in. It does have a built in
>> >microphone.
>> >Tommy
>> >
>> >
>> >
>> >
>> >_______________________________________________
>> >Blinux-list mailing list
>> >Blinux-list@redhat.com
>> >https://listman.redhat.com/mailman/listinfo/blinux-list
>> >
>> >
>> 
>> 
>> 
>> _______________________________________________
>> Blinux-list mailing list
>> Blinux-list@redhat.com
>> https://listman.redhat.com/mailman/listinfo/blinux-list
>
>
>
>_______________________________________________
>Blinux-list mailing list
>Blinux-list@redhat.com
>https://listman.redhat.com/mailman/listinfo/blinux-list
>
>

Re: the Papenmeir device that was supposed to be coming out

[Brent Harding]

Wow, the linux is probably in some kind of rom that's unchangable so if you
trash it you have something to come back to. Wonder if you could get linux
on a braille note?
At 01:55 PM 11/14/01 -0500, you wrote:
>Of course it would. If it is supported in linux, it'll run wherever you 
>have linux--with the appropriate support modules installed, of course. We 
>don't know, for example, how complete the Papenmeier linux installation 
>is. For example, I would rather doubt they've installed gnome and kde, but 
>I've been wrong before.
> On Wed, 14 Nov 2001, Brent Harding wrote:
>
>> Wow, would that likely work in the system's linux support? My laptop isn't
>> working real good for audio, as the dectalk feeds an overtone in to the
>> system whenever it's port is accessed, even when pulling the cable out and
>> all. The port must be giving the noise.
>> At 09:52 AM 11/14/01 -0500, you wrote:
>> >I don't mind the lack of line in. For serious audio work you'd want to
use 
>> >the pcm slot with a device like the RME Hammerfalls DSP.
>> >
>> >
>> >On Tue, 13 Nov 2001, Tommy Craig wrote:
>> >
>> >> Yes you can use your own software. As for line in and out, It definately
>> has
>> >> line out. I don't believe that it has line in. It does have a built in
>> >> microphone.
>> >> Tommy
>> >> 
>> >> 
>> >> 
>> >> 
>> >> _______________________________________________
>> >> Blinux-list mailing list
>> >> Blinux-list@redhat.com
>> >> https://listman.redhat.com/mailman/listinfo/blinux-list
>> >> 
>> >
>> >-- 
>> >	
>> >				Janina Sajka, Director
>> >				Technology Research and Development
>> >				Governmental Relations Group
>> >				American Foundation for the Blind (AFB)
>> >
>> >Email: janina@afb.net		Phone: (202) 408-8175
>> >
>> >Chair, Accessibility SIG
>> >Open Electronic Book Forum (OEBF)
>> >http://www.openebook.org
>> >
>> >Will electronic books surpass print books? Read our white paper,
>> >Surpassing Gutenberg, at http://www.afb.org/ebook.asp
>> >
>> >Download a free sample Digital Talking Book edition of Martin Luther
>> >King Jr's inspiring "I Have A Dream" speech at
>> >http://www.afb.org/mlkweb.asp
>> >
>> >Learn how to make accessible software at
>> >http://www.afb.org/accessapp.asp
>> >
>> >
>> >
>> >_______________________________________________
>> >Blinux-list mailing list
>> >Blinux-list@redhat.com
>> >https://listman.redhat.com/mailman/listinfo/blinux-list
>> >
>> >
>> 
>> 
>> 
>> _______________________________________________
>> Blinux-list mailing list
>> Blinux-list@redhat.com
>> https://listman.redhat.com/mailman/listinfo/blinux-list
>> 
>
>-- 
>	
>				Janina Sajka, Director
>				Technology Research and Development
>				Governmental Relations Group
>				American Foundation for the Blind (AFB)
>
>Email: janina@afb.net		Phone: (202) 408-8175
>
>Chair, Accessibility SIG
>Open Electronic Book Forum (OEBF)
>http://www.openebook.org
>
>Will electronic books surpass print books? Read our white paper,
>Surpassing Gutenberg, at http://www.afb.org/ebook.asp
>
>Download a free sample Digital Talking Book edition of Martin Luther
>King Jr's inspiring "I Have A Dream" speech at
>http://www.afb.org/mlkweb.asp
>
>Learn how to make accessible software at
>http://www.afb.org/accessapp.asp
>
>
>
>_______________________________________________
>Blinux-list mailing list
>Blinux-list@redhat.com
>https://listman.redhat.com/mailman/listinfo/blinux-list
>
>

Re: the Papenmeir device that was supposed to be coming out

[Brent Harding]

Well, linux is the most mainstream OS besides palmos that could be used a
portable device besides Windows CE. It's not real popular, but you can
definitely get software online for it. I'm not sure if palmos or pocket PC
stuff would be capable of what adaptations are needed to make a product we
can use. They probably are quite expensive to license, thus using something
custom cuts down on cost.
At 01:59 PM 11/14/01 -0500, you wrote:
>
>Someone please tell me why all these braille display devices cheap out on
>operating systems?
>
>First we had VersaBraille, a great device, but, it had VBOS, and what we
>really needed was DOS in a braille box. Then we have the Blazie devices,
>which give us only 640 to 2048 of ram. From what I am reading the
>Popenmier will have a mini-version of linux comperable to Windows CE in
>the windows world? These devices whether they be braille or speech devices
>should be using worldly operating systems, not blindy-only proprietary
>OS's, and they should be able to run off the shelf software. For example,
>BrailleLite should have a pentium chip capable of running DOS at least so
>we could run WordPerfect 6.0 on it. I just can't stand it. Blindy always
>has to learn a new operating system for each piece of hardware he buys.
>Sightlings don't have to do this, except the differences between Macintosh
>and PC's.
>
>Enough of my ranting. But, really, what is the problem, here. Is it the
>big egos of small companies that can't conceive of the possibility of
>designing something without having to program it? Or do the sightling
>companies who cater to the general masses really charge too, too, much for
>the rights to use general OS's for what they, I am sure, would consider a
>limited run, limited edition computer. I am aware that say, a company like
>Dell probably sells 5000 computers a week, whereas, if Popenmier sold 5000
>Elba's in 2 years, that would probably be a great success. Any thoughts?
>
>Finally, our blind devices always seem to have stone-aged OS's in them by
>the time we are able to buy them. The manufacturers of our devices should
>be encouraging us to use the same communication tools that sighted
>coworkers and friends use, even if these tools are packaged in a different
>box that has a braille display instead of a screen with an lcd or led. I
>think there is a terrible missunderstanding out there, even among blind
>people themselves and the engineers who work on their behalf about
>what tools blind people need. We just need access to the same tools
>everyone else who is sighted uses, and we need portability, too.
>
>Much appreciation and applause to the engineers and designers for their
>dedication and hard work.
>
>-- 
>Bill Gaughan
>wgaughan@snet.net
>
>
>On Wed, 14 Nov 2001 philwh@gate.net wrote:
>
>> Hi.
>> I would be surprised if it has a compiler considering the limited
>> ram and flash space.
>> perhaps with an external hard drive.
>> you could always install a cross compiler
>> on your desktop machine and compile software for it
>> if it doesn't come with a compiler.
>> remember, it uses the strongarm processor.
>>
>> phil
>>
>> On Wed, Nov 14, 2001 at 11:33:28AM -0600, Brent Harding wrote:
>> > Wow, so it has compilers and the like, I can just install away like I
do on
>> > a normal linux box?
>> > At 11:13 PM 11/13/01 -0600, you wrote:
>> > >Yes you can use your own software. As for line in and out, It
definately has
>> > >line out. I don't believe that it has line in. It does have a built in
>> > >microphone.
>> > >Tommy
>> > >
>> > >
>> > >
>> > >
>> > >_______________________________________________
>> > >Blinux-list mailing list
>> > >Blinux-list@redhat.com
>> > >https://listman.redhat.com/mailman/listinfo/blinux-list
>> > >
>> > >
>> >
>> >
>> >
>> > _______________________________________________
>> > Blinux-list mailing list
>> > Blinux-list@redhat.com
>> > https://listman.redhat.com/mailman/listinfo/blinux-list
>>
>>
>>
>> _______________________________________________
>> Blinux-list mailing list
>> Blinux-list@redhat.com
>> https://listman.redhat.com/mailman/listinfo/blinux-list
>>
>
>
>
>_______________________________________________
>Blinux-list mailing list
>Blinux-list@redhat.com
>https://listman.redhat.com/mailman/listinfo/blinux-list
>
>

Re: the Papenmeir device that was supposed to be coming out

[Henry Yen]

On Wed, Nov 14, 2001 at 01:59:04AM -0500, Bill Gaughan wrote:
> 
> Someone please tell me why all these braille display devices cheap out on
> operating systems?
> 
> First we had VersaBraille, a great device, but, it had VBOS, and what we
> really needed was DOS in a braille box. Then we have the Blazie devices,
> which give us only 640 to 2048 of ram. From what I am reading the
> Popenmier will have a mini-version of linux comperable to Windows CE in
> the windows world? These devices whether they be braille or speech devices
> should be using worldly operating systems, not blindy-only proprietary
> OS's, and they should be able to run off the shelf software. For example,
> BrailleLite should have a pentium chip capable of running DOS at least so
> we could run WordPerfect 6.0 on it. I just can't stand it. Blindy always
> has to learn a new operating system for each piece of hardware he buys.
> Sightlings don't have to do this, except the differences between Macintosh
> and PC's.

a couple of data points...  pentium chips are rather poor in terms of
efficient energy consumption.  ARM chips, for example, are somewhat better
at it.  given this situation, if you want to run windows/dos, you need
a x86 (i.e. pentium) chip.  if you want to be able to run efficiently in
low-power and/or portable modes, you typically turn to something else.
for the former, you can run windows or linux with the dos emulator.
for the latter, there don't seem to be any practical solutions available to
run dos applications.  at some point in the future, cpu speeds, even for
low-power chips like the ARM, may be fast enough to comfortably run
dos applications under an x86 emulator under linux on an ARM, but i doubt
it would happen soon.


-- 
Henry Yen                                       Aegis Information Systems, Inc.
Senior Systems Programmer                       Hicksville, New York

RE: the Papenmeir device that was supposed to be coming out

[Brent Harding]

What's this ipaq thing? I never heard of one, but it might be cool. Laptops
don't give enough battery life, and batteries can be quite expensive.
At 02:03 PM 11/14/01 -0500, you wrote:
>presumably any sa1110 cross-compiler would work, but there could be some
>reason it woulden't.
>
>in fact, any of the standard distributions of linux should run on it as long
>as you can get the bootloader specs and how it does it's boot process.
>
>of course, the braille models might need to know how to understand a brl
>keyboard, but the qwerty model should resemble stock arm boards and
>connectors other then the lack of visual display...
>it should make no difference for the compiler of course.  I woulden't want
>to build on the machine itself, just as you don't compile stuff on your
>ipaq.  you generate cross-code or multi-platform code and the strip it or
>whatever.
>
>the beauty will be in adding a later kernel and seeing it take more recent
>cf cards ...  like the support for gps and cellular cards  whch would add
>instant functionallity without any intervention from the manufacturer...
>
>this is  in particular contrast to the humanware model where you cant really
>do anything with the underlying operating system...
>
>to me, the brlnote is like selling software that is accessible, but not
>being able to use windows itself... kinda like the early days of arkenstone
>or something...
>
>
>
>-----Original Message-----
>From: blinux-list-admin@redhat.com
>[mailto:blinux-list-admin@redhat.com]On Behalf Of Tommy Craig
>Sent: Wednesday, November 14, 2001 1:30 PM
>To: blinux-list@redhat.com
>Subject: Re: the Papenmeir device that was supposed to be coming out
>
>
>the ELBA will have a compiler available for it. It will not come as standard
>with the unit though. Also obviously, it is a palm top and not a full blown
>laptop. This restricts the amount of memory that is available. However, you
>will be able to use off the shelf products such as microdrives for storage.
>The latest one that I've seen is by Toshiba, it has 5gb of storage and sells
>for around $399. Of course they also have smaller and less expensive models.
>Tommy
>
>
>
>_______________________________________________
>Blinux-list mailing list
>Blinux-list@redhat.com
>https://listman.redhat.com/mailman/listinfo/blinux-list
>
>
>
>_______________________________________________
>Blinux-list mailing list
>Blinux-list@redhat.com
>https://listman.redhat.com/mailman/listinfo/blinux-list
>
>

Re: the Papenmeir device that was supposed to be coming out

[philwh]

HI.
YOu are right, the more memory, the more power consumption, the shorter the battery
time.
remember, the unit has both ram which is waht bill is referin to,
and flash rom.
the amount of ram has little to do with the number of software packages you
can have ont he unit, only the  number you can run at the same time.
the software is mostly stored whent he unit is off in either 
flash or on some sort of external device.

phil

On Wed, Nov 14, 2001 at 02:13:28PM -0500, Janina Sajka wrote:
> This is just a guess, but my expectation is that it has to do with the 
> processor. I don't know what the Strongarm supports in the way of RAM. I 
> do understand that it will run on battery longer, and that's certainly 
> important in a device you carry around. Also, it runs off ROM chips so you 
> don't wait for it to boot, you power up and it's ready.
> 
> 2001, Bill Gaughan wrote:
> 
> > Why will the Elba have a memory restriction. The Mac Power Book comes with
> > 128 Megs of memory? I believe the IBM Thinkpad does also. Come one, guys,
> > memory is really cheap, today. I can get a 128 meg chip for $30 or less,
> > mail order off the web.
> > 
> > 
> 
> -- 
> 	
> 				Janina Sajka, Director
> 				Technology Research and Development
> 				Governmental Relations Group
> 				American Foundation for the Blind (AFB)
> 
> Email: janina@afb.net		Phone: (202) 408-8175
> 
> Chair, Accessibility SIG
> Open Electronic Book Forum (OEBF)
> http://www.openebook.org
> 
> Will electronic books surpass print books? Read our white paper,
> Surpassing Gutenberg, at http://www.afb.org/ebook.asp
> 
> Download a free sample Digital Talking Book edition of Martin Luther
> King Jr's inspiring "I Have A Dream" speech at
> http://www.afb.org/mlkweb.asp
> 
> Learn how to make accessible software at
> http://www.afb.org/accessapp.asp
> 
> 
> 
> _______________________________________________
> Blinux-list mailing list
> Blinux-list@redhat.com
> https://listman.redhat.com/mailman/listinfo/blinux-list

RE: the Papenmeir device that was supposed to be coming out

[Joel Zimba]

so if anyone is willing to sacrifice a brlnote for the cause, I'll gladly
spearhead the effort to unixize one of them!!
now if only we can get the specs for the hardware... like the braill
display.
anyone have connections at pulsedaata?
J

-----Original Message-----
From: blinux-list-admin@redhat.com
[mailto:blinux-list-admin@redhat.com]On Behalf Of Janina Sajka
Sent: Thursday, November 15, 2001 11:33 AM
To: blinux-list@redhat.com
Subject: Re: the Papenmeir device that was supposed to be coming out


As it happens, the Braille Note is built around the MIPS chip which is
supported by linux, so the answer is "yes," that would be possible.

As a matter of fact, this is a more timely question than may first meet
the ... ahem ... ear? <grin>

The Braille Note runs Win CE, but Microsoft will no longer support MIPS
clients with it's Win CE OS. Therefore, Pulse Data, the Braille Note's
manufacturer finds itself dumped like a spurned lover. They have no
tomorrow to look forward to with Microsoft. I have been suggesting they
consider going with linux, now that their future is so up in the air.

 On
Wed, 14 Nov 2001, Brent Harding wrote:

> Wow, the linux is probably in some kind of rom that's unchangable so if
you
> trash it you have something to come back to. Wonder if you could get linux
> on a braille note?
> At 01:55 PM 11/14/01 -0500, you wrote:
> >Of course it would. If it is supported in linux, it'll run wherever you
> >have linux--with the appropriate support modules installed, of course. We
> >don't know, for example, how complete the Papenmeier linux installation
> >is. For example, I would rather doubt they've installed gnome and kde,
but
> >I've been wrong before.
> > On Wed, 14 Nov 2001, Brent Harding wrote:
> >
> >> Wow, would that likely work in the system's linux support? My laptop
isn't
> >> working real good for audio, as the dectalk feeds an overtone in to the
> >> system whenever it's port is accessed, even when pulling the cable out
and
> >> all. The port must be giving the noise.
> >> At 09:52 AM 11/14/01 -0500, you wrote:
> >> >I don't mind the lack of line in. For serious audio work you'd want to
> use
> >> >the pcm slot with a device like the RME Hammerfalls DSP.
> >> >
> >> >
> >> >On Tue, 13 Nov 2001, Tommy Craig wrote:
> >> >
> >> >> Yes you can use your own software. As for line in and out, It
definately
> >> has
> >> >> line out. I don't believe that it has line in. It does have a built
in
> >> >> microphone.
> >> >> Tommy
> >> >>
> >> >>
> >> >>
> >> >>
> >> >> _______________________________________________
> >> >> Blinux-list mailing list
> >> >> Blinux-list@redhat.com
> >> >> https://listman.redhat.com/mailman/listinfo/blinux-list
> >> >>
> >> >
> >> >--
> >> >
> >> >				Janina Sajka, Director
> >> >				Technology Research and Development
> >> >				Governmental Relations Group
> >> >				American Foundation for the Blind (AFB)
> >> >
> >> >Email: janina@afb.net		Phone: (202) 408-8175
> >> >
> >> >Chair, Accessibility SIG
> >> >Open Electronic Book Forum (OEBF)
> >> >http://www.openebook.org
> >> >
> >> >Will electronic books surpass print books? Read our white paper,
> >> >Surpassing Gutenberg, at http://www.afb.org/ebook.asp
> >> >
> >> >Download a free sample Digital Talking Book edition of Martin Luther
> >> >King Jr's inspiring "I Have A Dream" speech at
> >> >http://www.afb.org/mlkweb.asp
> >> >
> >> >Learn how to make accessible software at
> >> >http://www.afb.org/accessapp.asp
> >> >
> >> >
> >> >
> >> >_______________________________________________
> >> >Blinux-list mailing list
> >> >Blinux-list@redhat.com
> >> >https://listman.redhat.com/mailman/listinfo/blinux-list
> >> >
> >> >
> >>
> >>
> >>
> >> _______________________________________________
> >> Blinux-list mailing list
> >> Blinux-list@redhat.com
> >> https://listman.redhat.com/mailman/listinfo/blinux-list
> >>
> >
> >--
> >
> >				Janina Sajka, Director
> >				Technology Research and Development
> >				Governmental Relations Group
> >				American Foundation for the Blind (AFB)
> >
> >Email: janina@afb.net		Phone: (202) 408-8175
> >
> >Chair, Accessibility SIG
> >Open Electronic Book Forum (OEBF)
> >http://www.openebook.org
> >
> >Will electronic books surpass print books? Read our white paper,
> >Surpassing Gutenberg, at http://www.afb.org/ebook.asp
> >
> >Download a free sample Digital Talking Book edition of Martin Luther
> >King Jr's inspiring "I Have A Dream" speech at
> >http://www.afb.org/mlkweb.asp
> >
> >Learn how to make accessible software at
> >http://www.afb.org/accessapp.asp
> >
> >
> >
> >_______________________________________________
> >Blinux-list mailing list
> >Blinux-list@redhat.com
> >https://listman.redhat.com/mailman/listinfo/blinux-list
> >
> >
>
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> Blinux-list mailing list
> Blinux-list@redhat.com
> https://listman.redhat.com/mailman/listinfo/blinux-list
>

--

				Janina Sajka, Director
				Technology Research and Development
				Governmental Relations Group
				American Foundation for the Blind (AFB)

Email: janina@afb.net		Phone: (202) 408-8175

Chair, Accessibility SIG
Open Electronic Book Forum (OEBF)
http://www.openebook.org

Will electronic books surpass print books? Read our white paper,
Surpassing Gutenberg, at http://www.afb.org/ebook.asp

Download a free sample Digital Talking Book edition of Martin Luther
King Jr's inspiring "I Have A Dream" speech at
http://www.afb.org/mlkweb.asp

Learn how to make accessible software at
http://www.afb.org/accessapp.asp



_______________________________________________
Blinux-list mailing list
Blinux-list@redhat.com
https://listman.redhat.com/mailman/listinfo/blinux-list

Re: the Papenmeir device that was supposed to be coming out

[Janina Sajka]

As it happens, the Braille Note is built around the MIPS chip which is 
supported by linux, so the answer is "yes," that would be possible.

As a matter of fact, this is a more timely question than may first meet 
the ... ahem ... ear? <grin>

The Braille Note runs Win CE, but Microsoft will no longer support MIPS 
clients with it's Win CE OS. Therefore, Pulse Data, the Braille Note's 
manufacturer finds itself dumped like a spurned lover. They have no 
tomorrow to look forward to with Microsoft. I have been suggesting they 
consider going with linux, now that their future is so up in the air.

 On 
Wed, 14 Nov 2001, Brent Harding wrote:

> Wow, the linux is probably in some kind of rom that's unchangable so if you
> trash it you have something to come back to. Wonder if you could get linux
> on a braille note?
> At 01:55 PM 11/14/01 -0500, you wrote:
> >Of course it would. If it is supported in linux, it'll run wherever you 
> >have linux--with the appropriate support modules installed, of course. We 
> >don't know, for example, how complete the Papenmeier linux installation 
> >is. For example, I would rather doubt they've installed gnome and kde, but 
> >I've been wrong before.
> > On Wed, 14 Nov 2001, Brent Harding wrote:
> >
> >> Wow, would that likely work in the system's linux support? My laptop isn't
> >> working real good for audio, as the dectalk feeds an overtone in to the
> >> system whenever it's port is accessed, even when pulling the cable out and
> >> all. The port must be giving the noise.
> >> At 09:52 AM 11/14/01 -0500, you wrote:
> >> >I don't mind the lack of line in. For serious audio work you'd want to
> use 
> >> >the pcm slot with a device like the RME Hammerfalls DSP.
> >> >
> >> >
> >> >On Tue, 13 Nov 2001, Tommy Craig wrote:
> >> >
> >> >> Yes you can use your own software. As for line in and out, It definately
> >> has
> >> >> line out. I don't believe that it has line in. It does have a built in
> >> >> microphone.
> >> >> Tommy
> >> >> 
> >> >> 
> >> >> 
> >> >> 
> >> >> _______________________________________________
> >> >> Blinux-list mailing list
> >> >> Blinux-list@redhat.com
> >> >> https://listman.redhat.com/mailman/listinfo/blinux-list
> >> >> 
> >> >
> >> >-- 
> >> >	
> >> >				Janina Sajka, Director
> >> >				Technology Research and Development
> >> >				Governmental Relations Group
> >> >				American Foundation for the Blind (AFB)
> >> >
> >> >Email: janina@afb.net		Phone: (202) 408-8175
> >> >
> >> >Chair, Accessibility SIG
> >> >Open Electronic Book Forum (OEBF)
> >> >http://www.openebook.org
> >> >
> >> >Will electronic books surpass print books? Read our white paper,
> >> >Surpassing Gutenberg, at http://www.afb.org/ebook.asp
> >> >
> >> >Download a free sample Digital Talking Book edition of Martin Luther
> >> >King Jr's inspiring "I Have A Dream" speech at
> >> >http://www.afb.org/mlkweb.asp
> >> >
> >> >Learn how to make accessible software at
> >> >http://www.afb.org/accessapp.asp
> >> >
> >> >
> >> >
> >> >_______________________________________________
> >> >Blinux-list mailing list
> >> >Blinux-list@redhat.com
> >> >https://listman.redhat.com/mailman/listinfo/blinux-list
> >> >
> >> >
> >> 
> >> 
> >> 
> >> _______________________________________________
> >> Blinux-list mailing list
> >> Blinux-list@redhat.com
> >> https://listman.redhat.com/mailman/listinfo/blinux-list
> >> 
> >
> >-- 
> >	
> >				Janina Sajka, Director
> >				Technology Research and Development
> >				Governmental Relations Group
> >				American Foundation for the Blind (AFB)
> >
> >Email: janina@afb.net		Phone: (202) 408-8175
> >
> >Chair, Accessibility SIG
> >Open Electronic Book Forum (OEBF)
> >http://www.openebook.org
> >
> >Will electronic books surpass print books? Read our white paper,
> >Surpassing Gutenberg, at http://www.afb.org/ebook.asp
> >
> >Download a free sample Digital Talking Book edition of Martin Luther
> >King Jr's inspiring "I Have A Dream" speech at
> >http://www.afb.org/mlkweb.asp
> >
> >Learn how to make accessible software at
> >http://www.afb.org/accessapp.asp
> >
> >
> >
> >_______________________________________________
> >Blinux-list mailing list
> >Blinux-list@redhat.com
> >https://listman.redhat.com/mailman/listinfo/blinux-list
> >
> >
> 
> 
> 
> _______________________________________________
> Blinux-list mailing list
> Blinux-list@redhat.com
> https://listman.redhat.com/mailman/listinfo/blinux-list
> 

-- 
	
				Janina Sajka, Director
				Technology Research and Development
				Governmental Relations Group
				American Foundation for the Blind (AFB)

Email: janina@afb.net		Phone: (202) 408-8175

Chair, Accessibility SIG
Open Electronic Book Forum (OEBF)
http://www.openebook.org

Will electronic books surpass print books? Read our white paper,
Surpassing Gutenberg, at http://www.afb.org/ebook.asp

Download a free sample Digital Talking Book edition of Martin Luther
King Jr's inspiring "I Have A Dream" speech at
http://www.afb.org/mlkweb.asp

Learn how to make accessible software at
http://www.afb.org/accessapp.asp

RE: the Papenmeir device that was supposed to be coming out

[Joel Zimba]

or you could save yourself the work and buy the elba...

now you see the point?

-----Original Message-----
From: blinux-list-admin@redhat.com
[mailto:blinux-list-admin@redhat.com]On Behalf Of Brent Harding
Sent: Thursday, November 15, 2001 2:50 PM
To: blinux-list@redhat.com
Subject: RE: the Papenmeir device that was supposed to be coming out


Wow, it'll be interesting to see how that goes, just getting it installed
might be an issue, loadlin from win CE? If the sound worked, it'd be like
having a mini computer, mp3, networking, anything we want now, easily
implemented with linux on a microdrive.
At 11:31 AM 11/15/01 -0500, you wrote:
>so if anyone is willing to sacrifice a brlnote for the cause, I'll gladly
>spearhead the effort to unixize one of them!!
>now if only we can get the specs for the hardware... like the braill
>display.
>anyone have connections at pulsedaata?
>J
>
>-----Original Message-----
>From: blinux-list-admin@redhat.com
>[mailto:blinux-list-admin@redhat.com]On Behalf Of Janina Sajka
>Sent: Thursday, November 15, 2001 11:33 AM
>To: blinux-list@redhat.com
>Subject: Re: the Papenmeir device that was supposed to be coming out
>
>
>As it happens, the Braille Note is built around the MIPS chip which is
>supported by linux, so the answer is "yes," that would be possible.
>
>As a matter of fact, this is a more timely question than may first meet
>the ... ahem ... ear? <grin>
>
>The Braille Note runs Win CE, but Microsoft will no longer support MIPS
>clients with it's Win CE OS. Therefore, Pulse Data, the Braille Note's
>manufacturer finds itself dumped like a spurned lover. They have no
>tomorrow to look forward to with Microsoft. I have been suggesting they
>consider going with linux, now that their future is so up in the air.
>
> On
>Wed, 14 Nov 2001, Brent Harding wrote:
>
>> Wow, the linux is probably in some kind of rom that's unchangable so if
>you
>> trash it you have something to come back to. Wonder if you could get
linux
>> on a braille note?
>> At 01:55 PM 11/14/01 -0500, you wrote:
>> >Of course it would. If it is supported in linux, it'll run wherever you
>> >have linux--with the appropriate support modules installed, of course.
We
>> >don't know, for example, how complete the Papenmeier linux installation
>> >is. For example, I would rather doubt they've installed gnome and kde,
>but
>> >I've been wrong before.
>> > On Wed, 14 Nov 2001, Brent Harding wrote:
>> >
>> >> Wow, would that likely work in the system's linux support? My laptop
>isn't
>> >> working real good for audio, as the dectalk feeds an overtone in to
the
>> >> system whenever it's port is accessed, even when pulling the cable out
>and
>> >> all. The port must be giving the noise.
>> >> At 09:52 AM 11/14/01 -0500, you wrote:
>> >> >I don't mind the lack of line in. For serious audio work you'd want
to
>> use
>> >> >the pcm slot with a device like the RME Hammerfalls DSP.
>> >> >
>> >> >
>> >> >On Tue, 13 Nov 2001, Tommy Craig wrote:
>> >> >
>> >> >> Yes you can use your own software. As for line in and out, It
>definately
>> >> has
>> >> >> line out. I don't believe that it has line in. It does have a built
>in
>> >> >> microphone.
>> >> >> Tommy
>> >> >>
>> >> >>
>> >> >>
>> >> >>
>> >> >> _______________________________________________
>> >> >> Blinux-list mailing list
>> >> >> Blinux-list@redhat.com
>> >> >> https://listman.redhat.com/mailman/listinfo/blinux-list
>> >> >>
>> >> >
>> >> >--
>> >> >
>> >> >				Janina Sajka, Director
>> >> >				Technology Research and Development
>> >> >				Governmental Relations Group
>> >> >				American Foundation for the Blind (AFB)
>> >> >
>> >> >Email: janina@afb.net		Phone: (202) 408-8175
>> >> >
>> >> >Chair, Accessibility SIG
>> >> >Open Electronic Book Forum (OEBF)
>> >> >http://www.openebook.org
>> >> >
>> >> >Will electronic books surpass print books? Read our white paper,
>> >> >Surpassing Gutenberg, at http://www.afb.org/ebook.asp
>> >> >
>> >> >Download a free sample Digital Talking Book edition of Martin Luther
>> >> >King Jr's inspiring "I Have A Dream" speech at
>> >> >http://www.afb.org/mlkweb.asp
>> >> >
>> >> >Learn how to make accessible software at
>> >> >http://www.afb.org/accessapp.asp
>> >> >
>> >> >
>> >> >
>> >> >_______________________________________________
>> >> >Blinux-list mailing list
>> >> >Blinux-list@redhat.com
>> >> >https://listman.redhat.com/mailman/listinfo/blinux-list
>> >> >
>> >> >
>> >>
>> >>
>> >>
>> >> _______________________________________________
>> >> Blinux-list mailing list
>> >> Blinux-list@redhat.com
>> >> https://listman.redhat.com/mailman/listinfo/blinux-list
>> >>
>> >
>> >--
>> >
>> >				Janina Sajka, Director
>> >				Technology Research and Development
>> >				Governmental Relations Group
>> >				American Foundation for the Blind (AFB)
>> >
>> >Email: janina@afb.net		Phone: (202) 408-8175
>> >
>> >Chair, Accessibility SIG
>> >Open Electronic Book Forum (OEBF)
>> >http://www.openebook.org
>> >
>> >Will electronic books surpass print books? Read our white paper,
>> >Surpassing Gutenberg, at http://www.afb.org/ebook.asp
>> >
>> >Download a free sample Digital Talking Book edition of Martin Luther
>> >King Jr's inspiring "I Have A Dream" speech at
>> >http://www.afb.org/mlkweb.asp
>> >
>> >Learn how to make accessible software at
>> >http://www.afb.org/accessapp.asp
>> >
>> >
>> >
>> >_______________________________________________
>> >Blinux-list mailing list
>> >Blinux-list@redhat.com
>> >https://listman.redhat.com/mailman/listinfo/blinux-list
>> >
>> >
>>
>>
>>
>> _______________________________________________
>> Blinux-list mailing list
>> Blinux-list@redhat.com
>> https://listman.redhat.com/mailman/listinfo/blinux-list
>>
>
>--
>
>				Janina Sajka, Director
>				Technology Research and Development
>				Governmental Relations Group
>				American Foundation for the Blind (AFB)
>
>Email: janina@afb.net		Phone: (202) 408-8175
>
>Chair, Accessibility SIG
>Open Electronic Book Forum (OEBF)
>http://www.openebook.org
>
>Will electronic books surpass print books? Read our white paper,
>Surpassing Gutenberg, at http://www.afb.org/ebook.asp
>
>Download a free sample Digital Talking Book edition of Martin Luther
>King Jr's inspiring "I Have A Dream" speech at
>http://www.afb.org/mlkweb.asp
>
>Learn how to make accessible software at
>http://www.afb.org/accessapp.asp
>
>
>
>_______________________________________________
>Blinux-list mailing list
>Blinux-list@redhat.com
>https://listman.redhat.com/mailman/listinfo/blinux-list
>
>
>
>_______________________________________________
>Blinux-list mailing list
>Blinux-list@redhat.com
>https://listman.redhat.com/mailman/listinfo/blinux-list
>
>



_______________________________________________
Blinux-list mailing list
Blinux-list@redhat.com
https://listman.redhat.com/mailman/listinfo/blinux-list

Re: the Papenmeir device that was supposed to be coming out

[Brent Harding]

Is there any howtos on how one might do something like this? I suppose CE
is in the rom. Linuxce would be a solution, if you could install it and get
something going on it, qwerty keyboards only, but it sounds cool. The
speech won't function, but maybe with a dectalk express, natively supported
by speakup, the serial port may be initialized, and my pcmcia modem from my
laptop could be put in the slot, definitely worked in debian.
At 11:33 AM 11/15/01 -0500, you wrote:
>As it happens, the Braille Note is built around the MIPS chip which is 
>supported by linux, so the answer is "yes," that would be possible.
>
>As a matter of fact, this is a more timely question than may first meet 
>the ... ahem ... ear? <grin>
>
>The Braille Note runs Win CE, but Microsoft will no longer support MIPS 
>clients with it's Win CE OS. Therefore, Pulse Data, the Braille Note's 
>manufacturer finds itself dumped like a spurned lover. They have no 
>tomorrow to look forward to with Microsoft. I have been suggesting they 
>consider going with linux, now that their future is so up in the air.
>
> On 
>Wed, 14 Nov 2001, Brent Harding wrote:
>
>> Wow, the linux is probably in some kind of rom that's unchangable so if you
>> trash it you have something to come back to. Wonder if you could get linux
>> on a braille note?
>> At 01:55 PM 11/14/01 -0500, you wrote:
>> >Of course it would. If it is supported in linux, it'll run wherever you 
>> >have linux--with the appropriate support modules installed, of course. We 
>> >don't know, for example, how complete the Papenmeier linux installation 
>> >is. For example, I would rather doubt they've installed gnome and kde,
but 
>> >I've been wrong before.
>> > On Wed, 14 Nov 2001, Brent Harding wrote:
>> >
>> >> Wow, would that likely work in the system's linux support? My laptop
isn't
>> >> working real good for audio, as the dectalk feeds an overtone in to the
>> >> system whenever it's port is accessed, even when pulling the cable
out and
>> >> all. The port must be giving the noise.
>> >> At 09:52 AM 11/14/01 -0500, you wrote:
>> >> >I don't mind the lack of line in. For serious audio work you'd want to
>> use 
>> >> >the pcm slot with a device like the RME Hammerfalls DSP.
>> >> >
>> >> >
>> >> >On Tue, 13 Nov 2001, Tommy Craig wrote:
>> >> >
>> >> >> Yes you can use your own software. As for line in and out, It
definately
>> >> has
>> >> >> line out. I don't believe that it has line in. It does have a
built in
>> >> >> microphone.
>> >> >> Tommy
>> >> >> 
>> >> >> 
>> >> >> 
>> >> >> 
>> >> >> _______________________________________________
>> >> >> Blinux-list mailing list
>> >> >> Blinux-list@redhat.com
>> >> >> https://listman.redhat.com/mailman/listinfo/blinux-list
>> >> >> 
>> >> >
>> >> >-- 
>> >> >	
>> >> >				Janina Sajka, Director
>> >> >				Technology Research and Development
>> >> >				Governmental Relations Group
>> >> >				American Foundation for the Blind (AFB)
>> >> >
>> >> >Email: janina@afb.net		Phone: (202) 408-8175
>> >> >
>> >> >Chair, Accessibility SIG
>> >> >Open Electronic Book Forum (OEBF)
>> >> >http://www.openebook.org
>> >> >
>> >> >Will electronic books surpass print books? Read our white paper,
>> >> >Surpassing Gutenberg, at http://www.afb.org/ebook.asp
>> >> >
>> >> >Download a free sample Digital Talking Book edition of Martin Luther
>> >> >King Jr's inspiring "I Have A Dream" speech at
>> >> >http://www.afb.org/mlkweb.asp
>> >> >
>> >> >Learn how to make accessible software at
>> >> >http://www.afb.org/accessapp.asp
>> >> >
>> >> >
>> >> >
>> >> >_______________________________________________
>> >> >Blinux-list mailing list
>> >> >Blinux-list@redhat.com
>> >> >https://listman.redhat.com/mailman/listinfo/blinux-list
>> >> >
>> >> >
>> >> 
>> >> 
>> >> 
>> >> _______________________________________________
>> >> Blinux-list mailing list
>> >> Blinux-list@redhat.com
>> >> https://listman.redhat.com/mailman/listinfo/blinux-list
>> >> 
>> >
>> >-- 
>> >	
>> >				Janina Sajka, Director
>> >				Technology Research and Development
>> >				Governmental Relations Group
>> >				American Foundation for the Blind (AFB)
>> >
>> >Email: janina@afb.net		Phone: (202) 408-8175
>> >
>> >Chair, Accessibility SIG
>> >Open Electronic Book Forum (OEBF)
>> >http://www.openebook.org
>> >
>> >Will electronic books surpass print books? Read our white paper,
>> >Surpassing Gutenberg, at http://www.afb.org/ebook.asp
>> >
>> >Download a free sample Digital Talking Book edition of Martin Luther
>> >King Jr's inspiring "I Have A Dream" speech at
>> >http://www.afb.org/mlkweb.asp
>> >
>> >Learn how to make accessible software at
>> >http://www.afb.org/accessapp.asp
>> >
>> >
>> >
>> >_______________________________________________
>> >Blinux-list mailing list
>> >Blinux-list@redhat.com
>> >https://listman.redhat.com/mailman/listinfo/blinux-list
>> >
>> >
>> 
>> 
>> 
>> _______________________________________________
>> Blinux-list mailing list
>> Blinux-list@redhat.com
>> https://listman.redhat.com/mailman/listinfo/blinux-list
>> 
>
>-- 
>	
>				Janina Sajka, Director
>				Technology Research and Development
>				Governmental Relations Group
>				American Foundation for the Blind (AFB)
>
>Email: janina@afb.net		Phone: (202) 408-8175
>
>Chair, Accessibility SIG
>Open Electronic Book Forum (OEBF)
>http://www.openebook.org
>
>Will electronic books surpass print books? Read our white paper,
>Surpassing Gutenberg, at http://www.afb.org/ebook.asp
>
>Download a free sample Digital Talking Book edition of Martin Luther
>King Jr's inspiring "I Have A Dream" speech at
>http://www.afb.org/mlkweb.asp
>
>Learn how to make accessible software at
>http://www.afb.org/accessapp.asp
>
>
>
>_______________________________________________
>Blinux-list mailing list
>Blinux-list@redhat.com
>https://listman.redhat.com/mailman/listinfo/blinux-list
>
>

RE: the Papenmeir device that was supposed to be coming out

[Brent Harding]

Wow, it'll be interesting to see how that goes, just getting it installed
might be an issue, loadlin from win CE? If the sound worked, it'd be like
having a mini computer, mp3, networking, anything we want now, easily
implemented with linux on a microdrive.
At 11:31 AM 11/15/01 -0500, you wrote:
>so if anyone is willing to sacrifice a brlnote for the cause, I'll gladly
>spearhead the effort to unixize one of them!!
>now if only we can get the specs for the hardware... like the braill
>display.
>anyone have connections at pulsedaata?
>J
>
>-----Original Message-----
>From: blinux-list-admin@redhat.com
>[mailto:blinux-list-admin@redhat.com]On Behalf Of Janina Sajka
>Sent: Thursday, November 15, 2001 11:33 AM
>To: blinux-list@redhat.com
>Subject: Re: the Papenmeir device that was supposed to be coming out
>
>
>As it happens, the Braille Note is built around the MIPS chip which is
>supported by linux, so the answer is "yes," that would be possible.
>
>As a matter of fact, this is a more timely question than may first meet
>the ... ahem ... ear? <grin>
>
>The Braille Note runs Win CE, but Microsoft will no longer support MIPS
>clients with it's Win CE OS. Therefore, Pulse Data, the Braille Note's
>manufacturer finds itself dumped like a spurned lover. They have no
>tomorrow to look forward to with Microsoft. I have been suggesting they
>consider going with linux, now that their future is so up in the air.
>
> On
>Wed, 14 Nov 2001, Brent Harding wrote:
>
>> Wow, the linux is probably in some kind of rom that's unchangable so if
>you
>> trash it you have something to come back to. Wonder if you could get linux
>> on a braille note?
>> At 01:55 PM 11/14/01 -0500, you wrote:
>> >Of course it would. If it is supported in linux, it'll run wherever you
>> >have linux--with the appropriate support modules installed, of course. We
>> >don't know, for example, how complete the Papenmeier linux installation
>> >is. For example, I would rather doubt they've installed gnome and kde,
>but
>> >I've been wrong before.
>> > On Wed, 14 Nov 2001, Brent Harding wrote:
>> >
>> >> Wow, would that likely work in the system's linux support? My laptop
>isn't
>> >> working real good for audio, as the dectalk feeds an overtone in to the
>> >> system whenever it's port is accessed, even when pulling the cable out
>and
>> >> all. The port must be giving the noise.
>> >> At 09:52 AM 11/14/01 -0500, you wrote:
>> >> >I don't mind the lack of line in. For serious audio work you'd want to
>> use
>> >> >the pcm slot with a device like the RME Hammerfalls DSP.
>> >> >
>> >> >
>> >> >On Tue, 13 Nov 2001, Tommy Craig wrote:
>> >> >
>> >> >> Yes you can use your own software. As for line in and out, It
>definately
>> >> has
>> >> >> line out. I don't believe that it has line in. It does have a built
>in
>> >> >> microphone.
>> >> >> Tommy
>> >> >>
>> >> >>
>> >> >>
>> >> >>
>> >> >> _______________________________________________
>> >> >> Blinux-list mailing list
>> >> >> Blinux-list@redhat.com
>> >> >> https://listman.redhat.com/mailman/listinfo/blinux-list
>> >> >>
>> >> >
>> >> >--
>> >> >
>> >> >				Janina Sajka, Director
>> >> >				Technology Research and Development
>> >> >				Governmental Relations Group
>> >> >				American Foundation for the Blind (AFB)
>> >> >
>> >> >Email: janina@afb.net		Phone: (202) 408-8175
>> >> >
>> >> >Chair, Accessibility SIG
>> >> >Open Electronic Book Forum (OEBF)
>> >> >http://www.openebook.org
>> >> >
>> >> >Will electronic books surpass print books? Read our white paper,
>> >> >Surpassing Gutenberg, at http://www.afb.org/ebook.asp
>> >> >
>> >> >Download a free sample Digital Talking Book edition of Martin Luther
>> >> >King Jr's inspiring "I Have A Dream" speech at
>> >> >http://www.afb.org/mlkweb.asp
>> >> >
>> >> >Learn how to make accessible software at
>> >> >http://www.afb.org/accessapp.asp
>> >> >
>> >> >
>> >> >
>> >> >_______________________________________________
>> >> >Blinux-list mailing list
>> >> >Blinux-list@redhat.com
>> >> >https://listman.redhat.com/mailman/listinfo/blinux-list
>> >> >
>> >> >
>> >>
>> >>
>> >>
>> >> _______________________________________________
>> >> Blinux-list mailing list
>> >> Blinux-list@redhat.com
>> >> https://listman.redhat.com/mailman/listinfo/blinux-list
>> >>
>> >
>> >--
>> >
>> >				Janina Sajka, Director
>> >				Technology Research and Development
>> >				Governmental Relations Group
>> >				American Foundation for the Blind (AFB)
>> >
>> >Email: janina@afb.net		Phone: (202) 408-8175
>> >
>> >Chair, Accessibility SIG
>> >Open Electronic Book Forum (OEBF)
>> >http://www.openebook.org
>> >
>> >Will electronic books surpass print books? Read our white paper,
>> >Surpassing Gutenberg, at http://www.afb.org/ebook.asp
>> >
>> >Download a free sample Digital Talking Book edition of Martin Luther
>> >King Jr's inspiring "I Have A Dream" speech at
>> >http://www.afb.org/mlkweb.asp
>> >
>> >Learn how to make accessible software at
>> >http://www.afb.org/accessapp.asp
>> >
>> >
>> >
>> >_______________________________________________
>> >Blinux-list mailing list
>> >Blinux-list@redhat.com
>> >https://listman.redhat.com/mailman/listinfo/blinux-list
>> >
>> >
>>
>>
>>
>> _______________________________________________
>> Blinux-list mailing list
>> Blinux-list@redhat.com
>> https://listman.redhat.com/mailman/listinfo/blinux-list
>>
>
>--
>
>				Janina Sajka, Director
>				Technology Research and Development
>				Governmental Relations Group
>				American Foundation for the Blind (AFB)
>
>Email: janina@afb.net		Phone: (202) 408-8175
>
>Chair, Accessibility SIG
>Open Electronic Book Forum (OEBF)
>http://www.openebook.org
>
>Will electronic books surpass print books? Read our white paper,
>Surpassing Gutenberg, at http://www.afb.org/ebook.asp
>
>Download a free sample Digital Talking Book edition of Martin Luther
>King Jr's inspiring "I Have A Dream" speech at
>http://www.afb.org/mlkweb.asp
>
>Learn how to make accessible software at
>http://www.afb.org/accessapp.asp
>
>
>
>_______________________________________________
>Blinux-list mailing list
>Blinux-list@redhat.com
>https://listman.redhat.com/mailman/listinfo/blinux-list
>
>
>
>_______________________________________________
>Blinux-list mailing list
>Blinux-list@redhat.com
>https://listman.redhat.com/mailman/listinfo/blinux-list
>
>

RE: the Papenmeir device that was supposed to be coming out

[Brent Harding]

I suppose, how would one even do this?
At 02:41 PM 11/15/01 -0500, you wrote:
>or you could save yourself the work and buy the elba...
>
>now you see the point?
>
>-----Original Message-----
>From: blinux-list-admin@redhat.com
>[mailto:blinux-list-admin@redhat.com]On Behalf Of Brent Harding
>Sent: Thursday, November 15, 2001 2:50 PM
>To: blinux-list@redhat.com
>Subject: RE: the Papenmeir device that was supposed to be coming out
>
>
>Wow, it'll be interesting to see how that goes, just getting it installed
>might be an issue, loadlin from win CE? If the sound worked, it'd be like
>having a mini computer, mp3, networking, anything we want now, easily
>implemented with linux on a microdrive.
>At 11:31 AM 11/15/01 -0500, you wrote:
>>so if anyone is willing to sacrifice a brlnote for the cause, I'll gladly
>>spearhead the effort to unixize one of them!!
>>now if only we can get the specs for the hardware... like the braill
>>display.
>>anyone have connections at pulsedaata?
>>J
>>
>>-----Original Message-----
>>From: blinux-list-admin@redhat.com
>>[mailto:blinux-list-admin@redhat.com]On Behalf Of Janina Sajka
>>Sent: Thursday, November 15, 2001 11:33 AM
>>To: blinux-list@redhat.com
>>Subject: Re: the Papenmeir device that was supposed to be coming out
>>
>>
>>As it happens, the Braille Note is built around the MIPS chip which is
>>supported by linux, so the answer is "yes," that would be possible.
>>
>>As a matter of fact, this is a more timely question than may first meet
>>the ... ahem ... ear? <grin>
>>
>>The Braille Note runs Win CE, but Microsoft will no longer support MIPS
>>clients with it's Win CE OS. Therefore, Pulse Data, the Braille Note's
>>manufacturer finds itself dumped like a spurned lover. They have no
>>tomorrow to look forward to with Microsoft. I have been suggesting they
>>consider going with linux, now that their future is so up in the air.
>>
>> On
>>Wed, 14 Nov 2001, Brent Harding wrote:
>>
>>> Wow, the linux is probably in some kind of rom that's unchangable so if
>>you
>>> trash it you have something to come back to. Wonder if you could get
>linux
>>> on a braille note?
>>> At 01:55 PM 11/14/01 -0500, you wrote:
>>> >Of course it would. If it is supported in linux, it'll run wherever you
>>> >have linux--with the appropriate support modules installed, of course.
>We
>>> >don't know, for example, how complete the Papenmeier linux installation
>>> >is. For example, I would rather doubt they've installed gnome and kde,
>>but
>>> >I've been wrong before.
>>> > On Wed, 14 Nov 2001, Brent Harding wrote:
>>> >
>>> >> Wow, would that likely work in the system's linux support? My laptop
>>isn't
>>> >> working real good for audio, as the dectalk feeds an overtone in to
>the
>>> >> system whenever it's port is accessed, even when pulling the cable out
>>and
>>> >> all. The port must be giving the noise.
>>> >> At 09:52 AM 11/14/01 -0500, you wrote:
>>> >> >I don't mind the lack of line in. For serious audio work you'd want
>to
>>> use
>>> >> >the pcm slot with a device like the RME Hammerfalls DSP.
>>> >> >
>>> >> >
>>> >> >On Tue, 13 Nov 2001, Tommy Craig wrote:
>>> >> >
>>> >> >> Yes you can use your own software. As for line in and out, It
>>definately
>>> >> has
>>> >> >> line out. I don't believe that it has line in. It does have a built
>>in
>>> >> >> microphone.
>>> >> >> Tommy
>>> >> >>
>>> >> >>
>>> >> >>
>>> >> >>
>>> >> >> _______________________________________________
>>> >> >> Blinux-list mailing list
>>> >> >> Blinux-list@redhat.com
>>> >> >> https://listman.redhat.com/mailman/listinfo/blinux-list
>>> >> >>
>>> >> >
>>> >> >--
>>> >> >
>>> >> >				Janina Sajka, Director
>>> >> >				Technology Research and Development
>>> >> >				Governmental Relations Group
>>> >> >				American Foundation for the Blind (AFB)
>>> >> >
>>> >> >Email: janina@afb.net		Phone: (202) 408-8175
>>> >> >
>>> >> >Chair, Accessibility SIG
>>> >> >Open Electronic Book Forum (OEBF)
>>> >> >http://www.openebook.org
>>> >> >
>>> >> >Will electronic books surpass print books? Read our white paper,
>>> >> >Surpassing Gutenberg, at http://www.afb.org/ebook.asp
>>> >> >
>>> >> >Download a free sample Digital Talking Book edition of Martin Luther
>>> >> >King Jr's inspiring "I Have A Dream" speech at
>>> >> >http://www.afb.org/mlkweb.asp
>>> >> >
>>> >> >Learn how to make accessible software at
>>> >> >http://www.afb.org/accessapp.asp
>>> >> >
>>> >> >
>>> >> >
>>> >> >_______________________________________________
>>> >> >Blinux-list mailing list
>>> >> >Blinux-list@redhat.com
>>> >> >https://listman.redhat.com/mailman/listinfo/blinux-list
>>> >> >
>>> >> >
>>> >>
>>> >>
>>> >>
>>> >> _______________________________________________
>>> >> Blinux-list mailing list
>>> >> Blinux-list@redhat.com
>>> >> https://listman.redhat.com/mailman/listinfo/blinux-list
>>> >>
>>> >
>>> >--
>>> >
>>> >				Janina Sajka, Director
>>> >				Technology Research and Development
>>> >				Governmental Relations Group
>>> >				American Foundation for the Blind (AFB)
>>> >
>>> >Email: janina@afb.net		Phone: (202) 408-8175
>>> >
>>> >Chair, Accessibility SIG
>>> >Open Electronic Book Forum (OEBF)
>>> >http://www.openebook.org
>>> >
>>> >Will electronic books surpass print books? Read our white paper,
>>> >Surpassing Gutenberg, at http://www.afb.org/ebook.asp
>>> >
>>> >Download a free sample Digital Talking Book edition of Martin Luther
>>> >King Jr's inspiring "I Have A Dream" speech at
>>> >http://www.afb.org/mlkweb.asp
>>> >
>>> >Learn how to make accessible software at
>>> >http://www.afb.org/accessapp.asp
>>> >
>>> >
>>> >
>>> >_______________________________________________
>>> >Blinux-list mailing list
>>> >Blinux-list@redhat.com
>>> >https://listman.redhat.com/mailman/listinfo/blinux-list
>>> >
>>> >
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> _______________________________________________
>>> Blinux-list mailing list
>>> Blinux-list@redhat.com
>>> https://listman.redhat.com/mailman/listinfo/blinux-list
>>>
>>
>>--
>>
>>				Janina Sajka, Director
>>				Technology Research and Development
>>				Governmental Relations Group
>>				American Foundation for the Blind (AFB)
>>
>>Email: janina@afb.net		Phone: (202) 408-8175
>>
>>Chair, Accessibility SIG
>>Open Electronic Book Forum (OEBF)
>>http://www.openebook.org
>>
>>Will electronic books surpass print books? Read our white paper,
>>Surpassing Gutenberg, at http://www.afb.org/ebook.asp
>>
>>Download a free sample Digital Talking Book edition of Martin Luther
>>King Jr's inspiring "I Have A Dream" speech at
>>http://www.afb.org/mlkweb.asp
>>
>>Learn how to make accessible software at
>>http://www.afb.org/accessapp.asp
>>
>>
>>
>>_______________________________________________
>>Blinux-list mailing list
>>Blinux-list@redhat.com
>>https://listman.redhat.com/mailman/listinfo/blinux-list
>>
>>
>>
>>_______________________________________________
>>Blinux-list mailing list
>>Blinux-list@redhat.com
>>https://listman.redhat.com/mailman/listinfo/blinux-list
>>
>>
>
>
>
>_______________________________________________
>Blinux-list mailing list
>Blinux-list@redhat.com
>https://listman.redhat.com/mailman/listinfo/blinux-list
>
>
>
>_______________________________________________
>Blinux-list mailing list
>Blinux-list@redhat.com
>https://listman.redhat.com/mailman/listinfo/blinux-list
>
>

RE: the Papenmeir device that was supposed to be coming out

[Joel Zimba]

have a read of handhelds.org  it pretty well describes the process for the
ipaq 3600...

I've seen descriptions for other devices.  it's mostly the same...

presumably there are the utilities for backing up wince and the linux loader
you would install...
I would not put it on the list of practical options at the moment, but
certainly possible.

and the incentive to do it is pretty much nill now that a device exists
which is roughly the same price and has the work already done for you.

Linux on devices other then pcs will bbe much more common in the coming
months.
now that tts is coming to be a more mainstream feature, we can expect the
level of hacking required to have reasonable access to drop dramatically.

time shall tell,

J

-----Original Message-----
From: blinux-list-admin@redhat.com
[mailto:blinux-list-admin@redhat.com]On Behalf Of Brent Harding
Sent: Thursday, November 15, 2001 4:07 PM
To: blinux-list@redhat.com
Subject: RE: the Papenmeir device that was supposed to be coming out


I suppose, how would one even do this?
At 02:41 PM 11/15/01 -0500, you wrote:
>or you could save yourself the work and buy the elba...
>
>now you see the point?
>
>-----Original Message-----
>From: blinux-list-admin@redhat.com
>[mailto:blinux-list-admin@redhat.com]On Behalf Of Brent Harding
>Sent: Thursday, November 15, 2001 2:50 PM
>To: blinux-list@redhat.com
>Subject: RE: the Papenmeir device that was supposed to be coming out
>
>
>Wow, it'll be interesting to see how that goes, just getting it installed
>might be an issue, loadlin from win CE? If the sound worked, it'd be like
>having a mini computer, mp3, networking, anything we want now, easily
>implemented with linux on a microdrive.
>At 11:31 AM 11/15/01 -0500, you wrote:
>>so if anyone is willing to sacrifice a brlnote for the cause, I'll gladly
>>spearhead the effort to unixize one of them!!
>>now if only we can get the specs for the hardware... like the braill
>>display.
>>anyone have connections at pulsedaata?
>>J
>>
>>-----Original Message-----
>>From: blinux-list-admin@redhat.com
>>[mailto:blinux-list-admin@redhat.com]On Behalf Of Janina Sajka
>>Sent: Thursday, November 15, 2001 11:33 AM
>>To: blinux-list@redhat.com
>>Subject: Re: the Papenmeir device that was supposed to be coming out
>>
>>
>>As it happens, the Braille Note is built around the MIPS chip which is
>>supported by linux, so the answer is "yes," that would be possible.
>>
>>As a matter of fact, this is a more timely question than may first meet
>>the ... ahem ... ear? <grin>
>>
>>The Braille Note runs Win CE, but Microsoft will no longer support MIPS
>>clients with it's Win CE OS. Therefore, Pulse Data, the Braille Note's
>>manufacturer finds itself dumped like a spurned lover. They have no
>>tomorrow to look forward to with Microsoft. I have been suggesting they
>>consider going with linux, now that their future is so up in the air.
>>
>> On
>>Wed, 14 Nov 2001, Brent Harding wrote:
>>
>>> Wow, the linux is probably in some kind of rom that's unchangable so if
>>you
>>> trash it you have something to come back to. Wonder if you could get
>linux
>>> on a braille note?
>>> At 01:55 PM 11/14/01 -0500, you wrote:
>>> >Of course it would. If it is supported in linux, it'll run wherever you
>>> >have linux--with the appropriate support modules installed, of course.
>We
>>> >don't know, for example, how complete the Papenmeier linux installation
>>> >is. For example, I would rather doubt they've installed gnome and kde,
>>but
>>> >I've been wrong before.
>>> > On Wed, 14 Nov 2001, Brent Harding wrote:
>>> >
>>> >> Wow, would that likely work in the system's linux support? My laptop
>>isn't
>>> >> working real good for audio, as the dectalk feeds an overtone in to
>the
>>> >> system whenever it's port is accessed, even when pulling the cable
out
>>and
>>> >> all. The port must be giving the noise.
>>> >> At 09:52 AM 11/14/01 -0500, you wrote:
>>> >> >I don't mind the lack of line in. For serious audio work you'd want
>to
>>> use
>>> >> >the pcm slot with a device like the RME Hammerfalls DSP.
>>> >> >
>>> >> >
>>> >> >On Tue, 13 Nov 2001, Tommy Craig wrote:
>>> >> >
>>> >> >> Yes you can use your own software. As for line in and out, It
>>definately
>>> >> has
>>> >> >> line out. I don't believe that it has line in. It does have a
built
>>in
>>> >> >> microphone.
>>> >> >> Tommy
>>> >> >>
>>> >> >>
>>> >> >>
>>> >> >>
>>> >> >> _______________________________________________
>>> >> >> Blinux-list mailing list
>>> >> >> Blinux-list@redhat.com
>>> >> >> https://listman.redhat.com/mailman/listinfo/blinux-list
>>> >> >>
>>> >> >
>>> >> >--
>>> >> >
>>> >> >				Janina Sajka, Director
>>> >> >				Technology Research and Development
>>> >> >				Governmental Relations Group
>>> >> >				American Foundation for the Blind (AFB)
>>> >> >
>>> >> >Email: janina@afb.net		Phone: (202) 408-8175
>>> >> >
>>> >> >Chair, Accessibility SIG
>>> >> >Open Electronic Book Forum (OEBF)
>>> >> >http://www.openebook.org
>>> >> >
>>> >> >Will electronic books surpass print books? Read our white paper,
>>> >> >Surpassing Gutenberg, at http://www.afb.org/ebook.asp
>>> >> >
>>> >> >Download a free sample Digital Talking Book edition of Martin Luther
>>> >> >King Jr's inspiring "I Have A Dream" speech at
>>> >> >http://www.afb.org/mlkweb.asp
>>> >> >
>>> >> >Learn how to make accessible software at
>>> >> >http://www.afb.org/accessapp.asp
>>> >> >
>>> >> >
>>> >> >
>>> >> >_______________________________________________
>>> >> >Blinux-list mailing list
>>> >> >Blinux-list@redhat.com
>>> >> >https://listman.redhat.com/mailman/listinfo/blinux-list
>>> >> >
>>> >> >
>>> >>
>>> >>
>>> >>
>>> >> _______________________________________________
>>> >> Blinux-list mailing list
>>> >> Blinux-list@redhat.com
>>> >> https://listman.redhat.com/mailman/listinfo/blinux-list
>>> >>
>>> >
>>> >--
>>> >
>>> >				Janina Sajka, Director
>>> >				Technology Research and Development
>>> >				Governmental Relations Group
>>> >				American Foundation for the Blind (AFB)
>>> >
>>> >Email: janina@afb.net		Phone: (202) 408-8175
>>> >
>>> >Chair, Accessibility SIG
>>> >Open Electronic Book Forum (OEBF)
>>> >http://www.openebook.org
>>> >
>>> >Will electronic books surpass print books? Read our white paper,
>>> >Surpassing Gutenberg, at http://www.afb.org/ebook.asp
>>> >
>>> >Download a free sample Digital Talking Book edition of Martin Luther
>>> >King Jr's inspiring "I Have A Dream" speech at
>>> >http://www.afb.org/mlkweb.asp
>>> >
>>> >Learn how to make accessible software at
>>> >http://www.afb.org/accessapp.asp
>>> >
>>> >
>>> >
>>> >_______________________________________________
>>> >Blinux-list mailing list
>>> >Blinux-list@redhat.com
>>> >https://listman.redhat.com/mailman/listinfo/blinux-list
>>> >
>>> >
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> _______________________________________________
>>> Blinux-list mailing list
>>> Blinux-list@redhat.com
>>> https://listman.redhat.com/mailman/listinfo/blinux-list
>>>
>>
>>--
>>
>>				Janina Sajka, Director
>>				Technology Research and Development
>>				Governmental Relations Group
>>				American Foundation for the Blind (AFB)
>>
>>Email: janina@afb.net		Phone: (202) 408-8175
>>
>>Chair, Accessibility SIG
>>Open Electronic Book Forum (OEBF)
>>http://www.openebook.org
>>
>>Will electronic books surpass print books? Read our white paper,
>>Surpassing Gutenberg, at http://www.afb.org/ebook.asp
>>
>>Download a free sample Digital Talking Book edition of Martin Luther
>>King Jr's inspiring "I Have A Dream" speech at
>>http://www.afb.org/mlkweb.asp
>>
>>Learn how to make accessible software at
>>http://www.afb.org/accessapp.asp
>>
>>
>>
>>_______________________________________________
>>Blinux-list mailing list
>>Blinux-list@redhat.com
>>https://listman.redhat.com/mailman/listinfo/blinux-list
>>
>>
>>
>>_______________________________________________
>>Blinux-list mailing list
>>Blinux-list@redhat.com
>>https://listman.redhat.com/mailman/listinfo/blinux-list
>>
>>
>
>
>
>_______________________________________________
>Blinux-list mailing list
>Blinux-list@redhat.com
>https://listman.redhat.com/mailman/listinfo/blinux-list
>
>
>
>_______________________________________________
>Blinux-list mailing list
>Blinux-list@redhat.com
>https://listman.redhat.com/mailman/listinfo/blinux-list
>
>



_______________________________________________
Blinux-list mailing list
Blinux-list@redhat.com
https://listman.redhat.com/mailman/listinfo/blinux-list

RE: the Papenmeir device that was supposed to be coming out

[Luke Davis]

Same price?  An IPAQ is going to be around six hundred bucks, maybe seven,
but you don't need the color resolution.  The Elva is what?


On Thu, 15 Nov 2001, Joel Zimba wrote:

> have a read of handhelds.org  it pretty well describes the process for the
> ipaq 3600...
>
> I've seen descriptions for other devices.  it's mostly the same...
>
> presumably there are the utilities for backing up wince and the linux loader
> you would install...
> I would not put it on the list of practical options at the moment, but
> certainly possible.
>
> and the incentive to do it is pretty much nill now that a device exists
> which is roughly the same price and has the work already done for you.
>
> Linux on devices other then pcs will bbe much more common in the coming
> months.
> now that tts is coming to be a more mainstream feature, we can expect the
> level of hacking required to have reasonable access to drop dramatically.
>
> time shall tell,
>
> J
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: blinux-list-admin@redhat.com
> [mailto:blinux-list-admin@redhat.com]On Behalf Of Brent Harding
> Sent: Thursday, November 15, 2001 4:07 PM
> To: blinux-list@redhat.com
> Subject: RE: the Papenmeir device that was supposed to be coming out
>
>
> I suppose, how would one even do this?
> At 02:41 PM 11/15/01 -0500, you wrote:
> >or you could save yourself the work and buy the elba...
> >
> >now you see the point?
> >
> >-----Original Message-----
> >From: blinux-list-admin@redhat.com
> >[mailto:blinux-list-admin@redhat.com]On Behalf Of Brent Harding
> >Sent: Thursday, November 15, 2001 2:50 PM
> >To: blinux-list@redhat.com
> >Subject: RE: the Papenmeir device that was supposed to be coming out
> >
> >
> >Wow, it'll be interesting to see how that goes, just getting it installed
> >might be an issue, loadlin from win CE? If the sound worked, it'd be like
> >having a mini computer, mp3, networking, anything we want now, easily
> >implemented with linux on a microdrive.
> >At 11:31 AM 11/15/01 -0500, you wrote:
> >>so if anyone is willing to sacrifice a brlnote for the cause, I'll gladly
> >>spearhead the effort to unixize one of them!!
> >>now if only we can get the specs for the hardware... like the braill
> >>display.
> >>anyone have connections at pulsedaata?
> >>J
> >>
> >>-----Original Message-----
> >>From: blinux-list-admin@redhat.com
> >>[mailto:blinux-list-admin@redhat.com]On Behalf Of Janina Sajka
> >>Sent: Thursday, November 15, 2001 11:33 AM
> >>To: blinux-list@redhat.com
> >>Subject: Re: the Papenmeir device that was supposed to be coming out
> >>
> >>
> >>As it happens, the Braille Note is built around the MIPS chip which is
> >>supported by linux, so the answer is "yes," that would be possible.
> >>
> >>As a matter of fact, this is a more timely question than may first meet
> >>the ... ahem ... ear? <grin>
> >>
> >>The Braille Note runs Win CE, but Microsoft will no longer support MIPS
> >>clients with it's Win CE OS. Therefore, Pulse Data, the Braille Note's
> >>manufacturer finds itself dumped like a spurned lover. They have no
> >>tomorrow to look forward to with Microsoft. I have been suggesting they
> >>consider going with linux, now that their future is so up in the air.
> >>
> >> On
> >>Wed, 14 Nov 2001, Brent Harding wrote:
> >>
> >>> Wow, the linux is probably in some kind of rom that's unchangable so if
> >>you
> >>> trash it you have something to come back to. Wonder if you could get
> >linux
> >>> on a braille note?
> >>> At 01:55 PM 11/14/01 -0500, you wrote:
> >>> >Of course it would. If it is supported in linux, it'll run wherever you
> >>> >have linux--with the appropriate support modules installed, of course.
> >We
> >>> >don't know, for example, how complete the Papenmeier linux installation
> >>> >is. For example, I would rather doubt they've installed gnome and kde,
> >>but
> >>> >I've been wrong before.
> >>> > On Wed, 14 Nov 2001, Brent Harding wrote:
> >>> >
> >>> >> Wow, would that likely work in the system's linux support? My laptop
> >>isn't
> >>> >> working real good for audio, as the dectalk feeds an overtone in to
> >the
> >>> >> system whenever it's port is accessed, even when pulling the cable
> out
> >>and
> >>> >> all. The port must be giving the noise.
> >>> >> At 09:52 AM 11/14/01 -0500, you wrote:
> >>> >> >I don't mind the lack of line in. For serious audio work you'd want
> >to
> >>> use
> >>> >> >the pcm slot with a device like the RME Hammerfalls DSP.
> >>> >> >
> >>> >> >
> >>> >> >On Tue, 13 Nov 2001, Tommy Craig wrote:
> >>> >> >
> >>> >> >> Yes you can use your own software. As for line in and out, It
> >>definately
> >>> >> has
> >>> >> >> line out. I don't believe that it has line in. It does have a
> built
> >>in
> >>> >> >> microphone.
> >>> >> >> Tommy
> >>> >> >>
> >>> >> >>
> >>> >> >>
> >>> >> >>
> >>> >> >> _______________________________________________
> >>> >> >> Blinux-list mailing list
> >>> >> >> Blinux-list@redhat.com
> >>> >> >> https://listman.redhat.com/mailman/listinfo/blinux-list
> >>> >> >>
> >>> >> >
> >>> >> >--
> >>> >> >
> >>> >> >				Janina Sajka, Director
> >>> >> >				Technology Research and Development
> >>> >> >				Governmental Relations Group
> >>> >> >				American Foundation for the Blind (AFB)
> >>> >> >
> >>> >> >Email: janina@afb.net		Phone: (202) 408-8175
> >>> >> >
> >>> >> >Chair, Accessibility SIG
> >>> >> >Open Electronic Book Forum (OEBF)
> >>> >> >http://www.openebook.org
> >>> >> >
> >>> >> >Will electronic books surpass print books? Read our white paper,
> >>> >> >Surpassing Gutenberg, at http://www.afb.org/ebook.asp
> >>> >> >
> >>> >> >Download a free sample Digital Talking Book edition of Martin Luther
> >>> >> >King Jr's inspiring "I Have A Dream" speech at
> >>> >> >http://www.afb.org/mlkweb.asp
> >>> >> >
> >>> >> >Learn how to make accessible software at
> >>> >> >http://www.afb.org/accessapp.asp
> >>> >> >
> >>> >> >
> >>> >> >
> >>> >> >_______________________________________________
> >>> >> >Blinux-list mailing list
> >>> >> >Blinux-list@redhat.com
> >>> >> >https://listman.redhat.com/mailman/listinfo/blinux-list
> >>> >> >
> >>> >> >
> >>> >>
> >>> >>
> >>> >>
> >>> >> _______________________________________________
> >>> >> Blinux-list mailing list
> >>> >> Blinux-list@redhat.com
> >>> >> https://listman.redhat.com/mailman/listinfo/blinux-list
> >>> >>
> >>> >
> >>> >--
> >>> >
> >>> >				Janina Sajka, Director
> >>> >				Technology Research and Development
> >>> >				Governmental Relations Group
> >>> >				American Foundation for the Blind (AFB)
> >>> >
> >>> >Email: janina@afb.net		Phone: (202) 408-8175
> >>> >
> >>> >Chair, Accessibility SIG
> >>> >Open Electronic Book Forum (OEBF)
> >>> >http://www.openebook.org
> >>> >
> >>> >Will electronic books surpass print books? Read our white paper,
> >>> >Surpassing Gutenberg, at http://www.afb.org/ebook.asp
> >>> >
> >>> >Download a free sample Digital Talking Book edition of Martin Luther
> >>> >King Jr's inspiring "I Have A Dream" speech at
> >>> >http://www.afb.org/mlkweb.asp
> >>> >
> >>> >Learn how to make accessible software at
> >>> >http://www.afb.org/accessapp.asp
> >>> >
> >>> >
> >>> >
> >>> >_______________________________________________
> >>> >Blinux-list mailing list
> >>> >Blinux-list@redhat.com
> >>> >https://listman.redhat.com/mailman/listinfo/blinux-list
> >>> >
> >>> >
> >>>
> >>>
> >>>
> >>> _______________________________________________
> >>> Blinux-list mailing list
> >>> Blinux-list@redhat.com
> >>> https://listman.redhat.com/mailman/listinfo/blinux-list
> >>>
> >>
> >>--
> >>
> >>				Janina Sajka, Director
> >>				Technology Research and Development
> >>				Governmental Relations Group
> >>				American Foundation for the Blind (AFB)
> >>
> >>Email: janina@afb.net		Phone: (202) 408-8175
> >>
> >>Chair, Accessibility SIG
> >>Open Electronic Book Forum (OEBF)
> >>http://www.openebook.org
> >>
> >>Will electronic books surpass print books? Read our white paper,
> >>Surpassing Gutenberg, at http://www.afb.org/ebook.asp
> >>
> >>Download a free sample Digital Talking Book edition of Martin Luther
> >>King Jr's inspiring "I Have A Dream" speech at
> >>http://www.afb.org/mlkweb.asp
> >>
> >>Learn how to make accessible software at
> >>http://www.afb.org/accessapp.asp
> >>
> >>
> >>
> >>_______________________________________________
> >>Blinux-list mailing list
> >>Blinux-list@redhat.com
> >>https://listman.redhat.com/mailman/listinfo/blinux-list
> >>
> >>
> >>
> >>_______________________________________________
> >>Blinux-list mailing list
> >>Blinux-list@redhat.com
> >>https://listman.redhat.com/mailman/listinfo/blinux-list
> >>
> >>
> >
> >
> >
> >_______________________________________________
> >Blinux-list mailing list
> >Blinux-list@redhat.com
> >https://listman.redhat.com/mailman/listinfo/blinux-list
> >
> >
> >
> >_______________________________________________
> >Blinux-list mailing list
> >Blinux-list@redhat.com
> >https://listman.redhat.com/mailman/listinfo/blinux-list
> >
> >
>
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> Blinux-list mailing list
> Blinux-list@redhat.com
> https://listman.redhat.com/mailman/listinfo/blinux-list
>
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> Blinux-list mailing list
> Blinux-list@redhat.com
> https://listman.redhat.com/mailman/listinfo/blinux-list
>

RE: the Papenmeir device that was supposed to be coming out

[Joel Zimba]

oh sorry,

I wasn't clear.  I was referring to performing the re-flashing of a brlnote.
not the
happy hacking of an ipaq, which is obviously much cheaper.

Once I get the floating point stuff out of rsynth it will run quite
elegantly on a small platform, and it (the ipaq) should be a pretty usable
little device.

glad I can still remember how to write :)

-----Original Message-----
From: blinux-list-admin@redhat.com
[mailto:blinux-list-admin@redhat.com]On Behalf Of Luke Davis
Sent: Thursday, November 15, 2001 5:01 PM
To: blinux-list@redhat.com
Subject: RE: the Papenmeir device that was supposed to be coming out


Same price?  An IPAQ is going to be around six hundred bucks, maybe seven,
but you don't need the color resolution.  The Elva is what?


On Thu, 15 Nov 2001, Joel Zimba wrote:

> have a read of handhelds.org  it pretty well describes the process for the
> ipaq 3600...
>
> I've seen descriptions for other devices.  it's mostly the same...
>
> presumably there are the utilities for backing up wince and the linux
loader
> you would install...
> I would not put it on the list of practical options at the moment, but
> certainly possible.
>
> and the incentive to do it is pretty much nill now that a device exists
> which is roughly the same price and has the work already done for you.
>
> Linux on devices other then pcs will bbe much more common in the coming
> months.
> now that tts is coming to be a more mainstream feature, we can expect the
> level of hacking required to have reasonable access to drop dramatically.
>
> time shall tell,
>
> J
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: blinux-list-admin@redhat.com
> [mailto:blinux-list-admin@redhat.com]On Behalf Of Brent Harding
> Sent: Thursday, November 15, 2001 4:07 PM
> To: blinux-list@redhat.com
> Subject: RE: the Papenmeir device that was supposed to be coming out
>
>
> I suppose, how would one even do this?
> At 02:41 PM 11/15/01 -0500, you wrote:
> >or you could save yourself the work and buy the elba...
> >
> >now you see the point?
> >
> >-----Original Message-----
> >From: blinux-list-admin@redhat.com
> >[mailto:blinux-list-admin@redhat.com]On Behalf Of Brent Harding
> >Sent: Thursday, November 15, 2001 2:50 PM
> >To: blinux-list@redhat.com
> >Subject: RE: the Papenmeir device that was supposed to be coming out
> >
> >
> >Wow, it'll be interesting to see how that goes, just getting it installed
> >might be an issue, loadlin from win CE? If the sound worked, it'd be like
> >having a mini computer, mp3, networking, anything we want now, easily
> >implemented with linux on a microdrive.
> >At 11:31 AM 11/15/01 -0500, you wrote:
> >>so if anyone is willing to sacrifice a brlnote for the cause, I'll
gladly
> >>spearhead the effort to unixize one of them!!
> >>now if only we can get the specs for the hardware... like the braill
> >>display.
> >>anyone have connections at pulsedaata?
> >>J
> >>
> >>-----Original Message-----
> >>From: blinux-list-admin@redhat.com
> >>[mailto:blinux-list-admin@redhat.com]On Behalf Of Janina Sajka
> >>Sent: Thursday, November 15, 2001 11:33 AM
> >>To: blinux-list@redhat.com
> >>Subject: Re: the Papenmeir device that was supposed to be coming out
> >>
> >>
> >>As it happens, the Braille Note is built around the MIPS chip which is
> >>supported by linux, so the answer is "yes," that would be possible.
> >>
> >>As a matter of fact, this is a more timely question than may first meet
> >>the ... ahem ... ear? <grin>
> >>
> >>The Braille Note runs Win CE, but Microsoft will no longer support MIPS
> >>clients with it's Win CE OS. Therefore, Pulse Data, the Braille Note's
> >>manufacturer finds itself dumped like a spurned lover. They have no
> >>tomorrow to look forward to with Microsoft. I have been suggesting they
> >>consider going with linux, now that their future is so up in the air.
> >>
> >> On
> >>Wed, 14 Nov 2001, Brent Harding wrote:
> >>
> >>> Wow, the linux is probably in some kind of rom that's unchangable so
if
> >>you
> >>> trash it you have something to come back to. Wonder if you could get
> >linux
> >>> on a braille note?
> >>> At 01:55 PM 11/14/01 -0500, you wrote:
> >>> >Of course it would. If it is supported in linux, it'll run wherever
you
> >>> >have linux--with the appropriate support modules installed, of
course.
> >We
> >>> >don't know, for example, how complete the Papenmeier linux
installation
> >>> >is. For example, I would rather doubt they've installed gnome and
kde,
> >>but
> >>> >I've been wrong before.
> >>> > On Wed, 14 Nov 2001, Brent Harding wrote:
> >>> >
> >>> >> Wow, would that likely work in the system's linux support? My
laptop
> >>isn't
> >>> >> working real good for audio, as the dectalk feeds an overtone in to
> >the
> >>> >> system whenever it's port is accessed, even when pulling the cable
> out
> >>and
> >>> >> all. The port must be giving the noise.
> >>> >> At 09:52 AM 11/14/01 -0500, you wrote:
> >>> >> >I don't mind the lack of line in. For serious audio work you'd
want
> >to
> >>> use
> >>> >> >the pcm slot with a device like the RME Hammerfalls DSP.
> >>> >> >
> >>> >> >
> >>> >> >On Tue, 13 Nov 2001, Tommy Craig wrote:
> >>> >> >
> >>> >> >> Yes you can use your own software. As for line in and out, It
> >>definately
> >>> >> has
> >>> >> >> line out. I don't believe that it has line in. It does have a
> built
> >>in
> >>> >> >> microphone.
> >>> >> >> Tommy
> >>> >> >>
> >>> >> >>
> >>> >> >>
> >>> >> >>
> >>> >> >> _______________________________________________
> >>> >> >> Blinux-list mailing list
> >>> >> >> Blinux-list@redhat.com
> >>> >> >> https://listman.redhat.com/mailman/listinfo/blinux-list
> >>> >> >>
> >>> >> >
> >>> >> >--
> >>> >> >
> >>> >> >				Janina Sajka, Director
> >>> >> >				Technology Research and Development
> >>> >> >				Governmental Relations Group
> >>> >> >				American Foundation for the Blind (AFB)
> >>> >> >
> >>> >> >Email: janina@afb.net		Phone: (202) 408-8175
> >>> >> >
> >>> >> >Chair, Accessibility SIG
> >>> >> >Open Electronic Book Forum (OEBF)
> >>> >> >http://www.openebook.org
> >>> >> >
> >>> >> >Will electronic books surpass print books? Read our white paper,
> >>> >> >Surpassing Gutenberg, at http://www.afb.org/ebook.asp
> >>> >> >
> >>> >> >Download a free sample Digital Talking Book edition of Martin
Luther
> >>> >> >King Jr's inspiring "I Have A Dream" speech at
> >>> >> >http://www.afb.org/mlkweb.asp
> >>> >> >
> >>> >> >Learn how to make accessible software at
> >>> >> >http://www.afb.org/accessapp.asp
> >>> >> >
> >>> >> >
> >>> >> >
> >>> >> >_______________________________________________
> >>> >> >Blinux-list mailing list
> >>> >> >Blinux-list@redhat.com
> >>> >> >https://listman.redhat.com/mailman/listinfo/blinux-list
> >>> >> >
> >>> >> >
> >>> >>
> >>> >>
> >>> >>
> >>> >> _______________________________________________
> >>> >> Blinux-list mailing list
> >>> >> Blinux-list@redhat.com
> >>> >> https://listman.redhat.com/mailman/listinfo/blinux-list
> >>> >>
> >>> >
> >>> >--
> >>> >
> >>> >				Janina Sajka, Director
> >>> >				Technology Research and Development
> >>> >				Governmental Relations Group
> >>> >				American Foundation for the Blind (AFB)
> >>> >
> >>> >Email: janina@afb.net		Phone: (202) 408-8175
> >>> >
> >>> >Chair, Accessibility SIG
> >>> >Open Electronic Book Forum (OEBF)
> >>> >http://www.openebook.org
> >>> >
> >>> >Will electronic books surpass print books? Read our white paper,
> >>> >Surpassing Gutenberg, at http://www.afb.org/ebook.asp
> >>> >
> >>> >Download a free sample Digital Talking Book edition of Martin Luther
> >>> >King Jr's inspiring "I Have A Dream" speech at
> >>> >http://www.afb.org/mlkweb.asp
> >>> >
> >>> >Learn how to make accessible software at
> >>> >http://www.afb.org/accessapp.asp
> >>> >
> >>> >
> >>> >
> >>> >_______________________________________________
> >>> >Blinux-list mailing list
> >>> >Blinux-list@redhat.com
> >>> >https://listman.redhat.com/mailman/listinfo/blinux-list
> >>> >
> >>> >
> >>>
> >>>
> >>>
> >>> _______________________________________________
> >>> Blinux-list mailing list
> >>> Blinux-list@redhat.com
> >>> https://listman.redhat.com/mailman/listinfo/blinux-list
> >>>
> >>
> >>--
> >>
> >>				Janina Sajka, Director
> >>				Technology Research and Development
> >>				Governmental Relations Group
> >>				American Foundation for the Blind (AFB)
> >>
> >>Email: janina@afb.net		Phone: (202) 408-8175
> >>
> >>Chair, Accessibility SIG
> >>Open Electronic Book Forum (OEBF)
> >>http://www.openebook.org
> >>
> >>Will electronic books surpass print books? Read our white paper,
> >>Surpassing Gutenberg, at http://www.afb.org/ebook.asp
> >>
> >>Download a free sample Digital Talking Book edition of Martin Luther
> >>King Jr's inspiring "I Have A Dream" speech at
> >>http://www.afb.org/mlkweb.asp
> >>
> >>Learn how to make accessible software at
> >>http://www.afb.org/accessapp.asp
> >>
> >>
> >>
> >>_______________________________________________
> >>Blinux-list mailing list
> >>Blinux-list@redhat.com
> >>https://listman.redhat.com/mailman/listinfo/blinux-list
> >>
> >>
> >>
> >>_______________________________________________
> >>Blinux-list mailing list
> >>Blinux-list@redhat.com
> >>https://listman.redhat.com/mailman/listinfo/blinux-list
> >>
> >>
> >
> >
> >
> >_______________________________________________
> >Blinux-list mailing list
> >Blinux-list@redhat.com
> >https://listman.redhat.com/mailman/listinfo/blinux-list
> >
> >
> >
> >_______________________________________________
> >Blinux-list mailing list
> >Blinux-list@redhat.com
> >https://listman.redhat.com/mailman/listinfo/blinux-list
> >
> >
>
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> Blinux-list mailing list
> Blinux-list@redhat.com
> https://listman.redhat.com/mailman/listinfo/blinux-list
>
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> Blinux-list mailing list
> Blinux-list@redhat.com
> https://listman.redhat.com/mailman/listinfo/blinux-list
>



_______________________________________________
Blinux-list mailing list
Blinux-list@redhat.com
https://listman.redhat.com/mailman/listinfo/blinux-list

Re: the Papenmeir device that was supposed to be coming out

[Janina Sajka]

Tommy:

I need to respond to this last note from you. I appreciate what you say in 
this note. While I do not agree with all of what you say, I do agree that 
that the Papenmeier is probably far and away the best choice among 
available products of its kind today. As you said in another note on this 
list the other day, it comes close to a laptop computer. In fact, were I 
to get one (and I might), I would try to use it just that way.

My comments, while strongly stated, are certainly not directed against you 
personally. I sincerely hope you don't take them that way. The failure of 
the assistive technology industry to bring the price of such units down 
is, in my view, no longer acceptable. And, to my understanding, it is the 
product that takes advantage of free software which bears a greater 
responsibility to its customers in this regard. But, the responsibility 
can also be shared out among various not for profit agencies and 
governmental entities. Fortunately, price is also negotiable and subject 
to change. Market pressure is just one way it can change.

In short, the part I don't agree with is is where you say that you and I 
have no control over price. I intend to push down on the price by several 
means, which include those I have employed here in the past few 
days--where I've challenged you, as the representative of the 
manufacturer, to justify it. You, as the manufacturer's representative on 
this list, might take what is said here back to headquarters. I would 
regard that as your duty to us, actually.

 On Tue, 13 
Nov 2001, Tommy Craig wrote:

> One last post. I am not part of the development team so I'm not really
> qualified to answer exactly what went into the development. You see although
> I am fairly technical and I have been working in this field for a number of
> years I couldn't build one. I think the best way for you to get your
> questions answered is to actually spend the time and look at a unit.
> 
>     I didn't get into this discussion to start a feud. I don't control the
> pricing and neither do you. I tried to answer a question concerning the
> shipping time for the unit. I am also happy to answer any productive
> questions that people might have. I am not willing to spend my time arguing
> about something that accomplishes absolutely nothing. All I would ask is
> that if you are interested in a Notetaker with a Braille display that you
> give the ELBA a look. Compare it to the other devices that are available,
> including comparing prices and pick the one that is right for you. That's
> the real world. I feel very strongly that if you do this you'll see that the
> ELBA is a good product at a competitive price.
> Tommy
> 
> 
> 
> 
> _______________________________________________
> Blinux-list mailing list
> Blinux-list@redhat.com
> https://listman.redhat.com/mailman/listinfo/blinux-list
> 

-- 
	
				Janina Sajka, Director
				Technology Research and Development
				Governmental Relations Group
				American Foundation for the Blind (AFB)

Email: janina@afb.net		Phone: (202) 408-8175

Chair, Accessibility SIG
Open Electronic Book Forum (OEBF)
http://www.openebook.org

Will electronic books surpass print books? Read our white paper,
Surpassing Gutenberg, at http://www.afb.org/ebook.asp

Download a free sample Digital Talking Book edition of Martin Luther
King Jr's inspiring "I Have A Dream" speech at
http://www.afb.org/mlkweb.asp

Learn how to make accessible software at
http://www.afb.org/accessapp.asp

Re: the Papenmeir device that was supposed to be coming out

[Luke Davis]

I would still like to know what one of these cost.  *Without* a corporate
discount, an IBM Thinkpad A20E, with CD and Zip Drive, is less than
$1,400.00.  That *is* a full featured laptop, and unless a particularly
assistive device is going to be at least a third, and probably more, less
expensive than the Thinkpad, I, as someone who wants full functionality,
am going to buy the Thinkpad.


On Thu, 15 Nov 2001, Janina Sajka wrote:

> Tommy:
>
> I need to respond to this last note from you. I appreciate what you say in
> this note. While I do not agree with all of what you say, I do agree that
> that the Papenmeier is probably far and away the best choice among
> available products of its kind today. As you said in another note on this
> list the other day, it comes close to a laptop computer. In fact, were I
> to get one (and I might), I would try to use it just that way.
>
> My comments, while strongly stated, are certainly not directed against you
> personally. I sincerely hope you don't take them that way. The failure of
> the assistive technology industry to bring the price of such units down
> is, in my view, no longer acceptable. And, to my understanding, it is the
> product that takes advantage of free software which bears a greater
> responsibility to its customers in this regard. But, the responsibility
> can also be shared out among various not for profit agencies and
> governmental entities. Fortunately, price is also negotiable and subject
> to change. Market pressure is just one way it can change.
>
> In short, the part I don't agree with is is where you say that you and I
> have no control over price. I intend to push down on the price by several
> means, which include those I have employed here in the past few
> days--where I've challenged you, as the representative of the
> manufacturer, to justify it. You, as the manufacturer's representative on
> this list, might take what is said here back to headquarters. I would
> regard that as your duty to us, actually.
>
>  On Tue, 13
> Nov 2001, Tommy Craig wrote:
>
> > One last post. I am not part of the development team so I'm not really
> > qualified to answer exactly what went into the development. You see although
> > I am fairly technical and I have been working in this field for a number of
> > years I couldn't build one. I think the best way for you to get your
> > questions answered is to actually spend the time and look at a unit.
> >
> >     I didn't get into this discussion to start a feud. I don't control the
> > pricing and neither do you. I tried to answer a question concerning the
> > shipping time for the unit. I am also happy to answer any productive
> > questions that people might have. I am not willing to spend my time arguing
> > about something that accomplishes absolutely nothing. All I would ask is
> > that if you are interested in a Notetaker with a Braille display that you
> > give the ELBA a look. Compare it to the other devices that are available,
> > including comparing prices and pick the one that is right for you. That's
> > the real world. I feel very strongly that if you do this you'll see that the
> > ELBA is a good product at a competitive price.
> > Tommy
> >
> >
> >
> >
> > _______________________________________________
> > Blinux-list mailing list
> > Blinux-list@redhat.com
> > https://listman.redhat.com/mailman/listinfo/blinux-list
> >
>
>

Re: the Papenmeir device that was supposed to be coming out

[Janina Sajka]

Hi, Luke:

Your analysis is right, in my view. I should say that I am running around 
with a Thinkpad T20 and it does the job very very well for me. I would, 
frankly, like something lighter. By the time I load up everything I need 
to take on the road to support my computer habits, that old briefcase gets 
quite heavy. Sometimes, I wish I had picked the Thinkpad X20, though the 
total weight would not have been that different with all of the 
peripherals.

The attraction of the Papenmeier is the thing missing in a Thinkpad--the 
braille. Also, it is attractive to think that I could show up in public 
and do all the things that one does on a computer on a device obviously 
aimed at blind users. There's a powerful message to that.

The price is part of the argument against this. But another argument 
against is the form factor. The Papenmeier is big, far too big, imho, at 
8.5 by 11 inches by whatever thickness.

 On Thu, 15 Nov 2001, Luke Davis wrote:

> I would still like to know what one of these cost.  *Without* a corporate
> discount, an IBM Thinkpad A20E, with CD and Zip Drive, is less than
> $1,400.00.  That *is* a full featured laptop, and unless a particularly
> assistive device is going to be at least a third, and probably more, less
> expensive than the Thinkpad, I, as someone who wants full functionality,
> am going to buy the Thinkpad.
> 
> 
> On Thu, 15 Nov 2001, Janina Sajka wrote:
> 
> > Tommy:
> >
> > I need to respond to this last note from you. I appreciate what you say in
> > this note. While I do not agree with all of what you say, I do agree that
> > that the Papenmeier is probably far and away the best choice among
> > available products of its kind today. As you said in another note on this
> > list the other day, it comes close to a laptop computer. In fact, were I
> > to get one (and I might), I would try to use it just that way.
> >
> > My comments, while strongly stated, are certainly not directed against you
> > personally. I sincerely hope you don't take them that way. The failure of
> > the assistive technology industry to bring the price of such units down
> > is, in my view, no longer acceptable. And, to my understanding, it is the
> > product that takes advantage of free software which bears a greater
> > responsibility to its customers in this regard. But, the responsibility
> > can also be shared out among various not for profit agencies and
> > governmental entities. Fortunately, price is also negotiable and subject
> > to change. Market pressure is just one way it can change.
> >
> > In short, the part I don't agree with is is where you say that you and I
> > have no control over price. I intend to push down on the price by several
> > means, which include those I have employed here in the past few
> > days--where I've challenged you, as the representative of the
> > manufacturer, to justify it. You, as the manufacturer's representative on
> > this list, might take what is said here back to headquarters. I would
> > regard that as your duty to us, actually.
> >
> >  On Tue, 13
> > Nov 2001, Tommy Craig wrote:
> >
> > > One last post. I am not part of the development team so I'm not really
> > > qualified to answer exactly what went into the development. You see although
> > > I am fairly technical and I have been working in this field for a number of
> > > years I couldn't build one. I think the best way for you to get your
> > > questions answered is to actually spend the time and look at a unit.
> > >
> > >     I didn't get into this discussion to start a feud. I don't control the
> > > pricing and neither do you. I tried to answer a question concerning the
> > > shipping time for the unit. I am also happy to answer any productive
> > > questions that people might have. I am not willing to spend my time arguing
> > > about something that accomplishes absolutely nothing. All I would ask is
> > > that if you are interested in a Notetaker with a Braille display that you
> > > give the ELBA a look. Compare it to the other devices that are available,
> > > including comparing prices and pick the one that is right for you. That's
> > > the real world. I feel very strongly that if you do this you'll see that the
> > > ELBA is a good product at a competitive price.
> > > Tommy
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > > _______________________________________________
> > > Blinux-list mailing list
> > > Blinux-list@redhat.com
> > > https://listman.redhat.com/mailman/listinfo/blinux-list
> > >
> >
> >
> 
> 
> 
> _______________________________________________
> Blinux-list mailing list
> Blinux-list@redhat.com
> https://listman.redhat.com/mailman/listinfo/blinux-list
> 

-- 
	
				Janina Sajka, Director
				Technology Research and Development
				Governmental Relations Group
				American Foundation for the Blind (AFB)

Email: janina@afb.net		Phone: (202) 408-8175

Chair, Accessibility SIG
Open Electronic Book Forum (OEBF)
http://www.openebook.org

Will electronic books surpass print books? Read our white paper,
Surpassing Gutenberg, at http://www.afb.org/ebook.asp

Download a free sample Digital Talking Book edition of Martin Luther
King Jr's inspiring "I Have A Dream" speech at
http://www.afb.org/mlkweb.asp

Learn how to make accessible software at
http://www.afb.org/accessapp.asp

Re: the Papenmeir device that was supposed to be coming out

[Tommy Craig]

Well, believe me, I do take what you say back to the manufacturer. I do it
on even a much more personal level. I was blind and a consumer way before I
got into this business. I totally understand the frustration of not being
able to afford the technology we need or for that matter want.

       I just try to offer the best products I can at the best price I can.
When I started selling the Papenmeier displays they were priced much higher
than some other brands. I continued to sell them because I truly believed
that the quality of the product justified a somewhat higher price. I never
stopped urging them to lower their prices though. Now their displays are
very competitively priced, so at least we've made some progress. In real
dollars the price of adaptive technology is going down. The prices have
dropped some and when you figure in inflation that decrease is more
significant. It still certainly isn't enough though.

    You are correct that we can influence the price of technology. Just not
as much as either you or I would like. We'll all keep trying though.
Tommy

Re: the Papenmeir device that was supposed to be coming out

[Tommy Craig]

The prices on the ELBA are $3995 for the 20 cell display and $5895 for the
32 cell display. You are certainly free to buy whatever you want, however,
to the price of the Thinkpad you need to add the cost of screenreaders and
if you want them a Braille keyboard and a Braille display. Jaws currently
Sellss for $800 and a 20 cell display would cost you around $3000. If you
add all of this up, the price fore the ELBA looks pretty good. Not to
mention that the ELBA is compact and in one piece.
Tommy

Re: the Papenmeir device that was supposed to be coming out

[Tommy Craig]

Ah but the difference is the fact that the ELBa does have Braille. Without
it, the price would certainly be much lower. Also I would say that when you
actually get your hands on the ELBA, it isn't as big as you expect. It is
certainly smaller than a thinkpad and a lot lighter. Once again the fact of
having a Braille display dictates the size to a large extent.
Tommy

RE: the Papenmeir device that was supposed to be coming out

[Luke Davis]

Already is.  There is A festival cline that seems to work well.


On Thu, 15 Nov 2001, Joel Zimba wrote:

> oh sorry,
>
> I wasn't clear.  I was referring to performing the re-flashing of a brlnote.
> not the
> happy hacking of an ipaq, which is obviously much cheaper.
>
> Once I get the floating point stuff out of rsynth it will run quite
> elegantly on a small platform, and it (the ipaq) should be a pretty usable
> little device.
>
> glad I can still remember how to write :)
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: blinux-list-admin@redhat.com
> [mailto:blinux-list-admin@redhat.com]On Behalf Of Luke Davis
> Sent: Thursday, November 15, 2001 5:01 PM
> To: blinux-list@redhat.com
> Subject: RE: the Papenmeir device that was supposed to be coming out
>
>
> Same price?  An IPAQ is going to be around six hundred bucks, maybe seven,
> but you don't need the color resolution.  The Elva is what?
>
>
> On Thu, 15 Nov 2001, Joel Zimba wrote:
>
> > have a read of handhelds.org  it pretty well describes the process for the
> > ipaq 3600...
> >
> > I've seen descriptions for other devices.  it's mostly the same...
> >
> > presumably there are the utilities for backing up wince and the linux
> loader
> > you would install...
> > I would not put it on the list of practical options at the moment, but
> > certainly possible.
> >
> > and the incentive to do it is pretty much nill now that a device exists
> > which is roughly the same price and has the work already done for you.
> >
> > Linux on devices other then pcs will bbe much more common in the coming
> > months.
> > now that tts is coming to be a more mainstream feature, we can expect the
> > level of hacking required to have reasonable access to drop dramatically.
> >
> > time shall tell,
> >
> > J
> >
> > -----Original Message-----
> > From: blinux-list-admin@redhat.com
> > [mailto:blinux-list-admin@redhat.com]On Behalf Of Brent Harding
> > Sent: Thursday, November 15, 2001 4:07 PM
> > To: blinux-list@redhat.com
> > Subject: RE: the Papenmeir device that was supposed to be coming out
> >
> >
> > I suppose, how would one even do this?
> > At 02:41 PM 11/15/01 -0500, you wrote:
> > >or you could save yourself the work and buy the elba...
> > >
> > >now you see the point?
> > >
> > >-----Original Message-----
> > >From: blinux-list-admin@redhat.com
> > >[mailto:blinux-list-admin@redhat.com]On Behalf Of Brent Harding
> > >Sent: Thursday, November 15, 2001 2:50 PM
> > >To: blinux-list@redhat.com
> > >Subject: RE: the Papenmeir device that was supposed to be coming out
> > >
> > >
> > >Wow, it'll be interesting to see how that goes, just getting it installed
> > >might be an issue, loadlin from win CE? If the sound worked, it'd be like
> > >having a mini computer, mp3, networking, anything we want now, easily
> > >implemented with linux on a microdrive.
> > >At 11:31 AM 11/15/01 -0500, you wrote:
> > >>so if anyone is willing to sacrifice a brlnote for the cause, I'll
> gladly
> > >>spearhead the effort to unixize one of them!!
> > >>now if only we can get the specs for the hardware... like the braill
> > >>display.
> > >>anyone have connections at pulsedaata?
> > >>J
> > >>
> > >>-----Original Message-----
> > >>From: blinux-list-admin@redhat.com
> > >>[mailto:blinux-list-admin@redhat.com]On Behalf Of Janina Sajka
> > >>Sent: Thursday, November 15, 2001 11:33 AM
> > >>To: blinux-list@redhat.com
> > >>Subject: Re: the Papenmeir device that was supposed to be coming out
> > >>
> > >>
> > >>As it happens, the Braille Note is built around the MIPS chip which is
> > >>supported by linux, so the answer is "yes," that would be possible.
> > >>
> > >>As a matter of fact, this is a more timely question than may first meet
> > >>the ... ahem ... ear? <grin>
> > >>
> > >>The Braille Note runs Win CE, but Microsoft will no longer support MIPS
> > >>clients with it's Win CE OS. Therefore, Pulse Data, the Braille Note's
> > >>manufacturer finds itself dumped like a spurned lover. They have no
> > >>tomorrow to look forward to with Microsoft. I have been suggesting they
> > >>consider going with linux, now that their future is so up in the air.
> > >>
> > >> On
> > >>Wed, 14 Nov 2001, Brent Harding wrote:
> > >>
> > >>> Wow, the linux is probably in some kind of rom that's unchangable so
> if
> > >>you
> > >>> trash it you have something to come back to. Wonder if you could get
> > >linux
> > >>> on a braille note?
> > >>> At 01:55 PM 11/14/01 -0500, you wrote:
> > >>> >Of course it would. If it is supported in linux, it'll run wherever
> you
> > >>> >have linux--with the appropriate support modules installed, of
> course.
> > >We
> > >>> >don't know, for example, how complete the Papenmeier linux
> installation
> > >>> >is. For example, I would rather doubt they've installed gnome and
> kde,
> > >>but
> > >>> >I've been wrong before.
> > >>> > On Wed, 14 Nov 2001, Brent Harding wrote:
> > >>> >
> > >>> >> Wow, would that likely work in the system's linux support? My
> laptop
> > >>isn't
> > >>> >> working real good for audio, as the dectalk feeds an overtone in to
> > >the
> > >>> >> system whenever it's port is accessed, even when pulling the cable
> > out
> > >>and
> > >>> >> all. The port must be giving the noise.
> > >>> >> At 09:52 AM 11/14/01 -0500, you wrote:
> > >>> >> >I don't mind the lack of line in. For serious audio work you'd
> want
> > >to
> > >>> use
> > >>> >> >the pcm slot with a device like the RME Hammerfalls DSP.
> > >>> >> >
> > >>> >> >
> > >>> >> >On Tue, 13 Nov 2001, Tommy Craig wrote:
> > >>> >> >
> > >>> >> >> Yes you can use your own software. As for line in and out, It
> > >>definately
> > >>> >> has
> > >>> >> >> line out. I don't believe that it has line in. It does have a
> > built
> > >>in
> > >>> >> >> microphone.
> > >>> >> >> Tommy
> > >>> >> >>
> > >>> >> >>
> > >>> >> >>
> > >>> >> >>
> > >>> >> >> _______________________________________________
> > >>> >> >> Blinux-list mailing list
> > >>> >> >> Blinux-list@redhat.com
> > >>> >> >> https://listman.redhat.com/mailman/listinfo/blinux-list
> > >>> >> >>
> > >>> >> >
> > >>> >> >--
> > >>> >> >
> > >>> >> >				Janina Sajka, Director
> > >>> >> >				Technology Research and Development
> > >>> >> >				Governmental Relations Group
> > >>> >> >				American Foundation for the Blind (AFB)
> > >>> >> >
> > >>> >> >Email: janina@afb.net		Phone: (202) 408-8175
> > >>> >> >
> > >>> >> >Chair, Accessibility SIG
> > >>> >> >Open Electronic Book Forum (OEBF)
> > >>> >> >http://www.openebook.org
> > >>> >> >
> > >>> >> >Will electronic books surpass print books? Read our white paper,
> > >>> >> >Surpassing Gutenberg, at http://www.afb.org/ebook.asp
> > >>> >> >
> > >>> >> >Download a free sample Digital Talking Book edition of Martin
> Luther
> > >>> >> >King Jr's inspiring "I Have A Dream" speech at
> > >>> >> >http://www.afb.org/mlkweb.asp
> > >>> >> >
> > >>> >> >Learn how to make accessible software at
> > >>> >> >http://www.afb.org/accessapp.asp
> > >>> >> >
> > >>> >> >
> > >>> >> >
> > >>> >> >_______________________________________________
> > >>> >> >Blinux-list mailing list
> > >>> >> >Blinux-list@redhat.com
> > >>> >> >https://listman.redhat.com/mailman/listinfo/blinux-list
> > >>> >> >
> > >>> >> >
> > >>> >>
> > >>> >>
> > >>> >>
> > >>> >> _______________________________________________
> > >>> >> Blinux-list mailing list
> > >>> >> Blinux-list@redhat.com
> > >>> >> https://listman.redhat.com/mailman/listinfo/blinux-list
> > >>> >>
> > >>> >
> > >>> >--
> > >>> >
> > >>> >				Janina Sajka, Director
> > >>> >				Technology Research and Development
> > >>> >				Governmental Relations Group
> > >>> >				American Foundation for the Blind (AFB)
> > >>> >
> > >>> >Email: janina@afb.net		Phone: (202) 408-8175
> > >>> >
> > >>> >Chair, Accessibility SIG
> > >>> >Open Electronic Book Forum (OEBF)
> > >>> >http://www.openebook.org
> > >>> >
> > >>> >Will electronic books surpass print books? Read our white paper,
> > >>> >Surpassing Gutenberg, at http://www.afb.org/ebook.asp
> > >>> >
> > >>> >Download a free sample Digital Talking Book edition of Martin Luther
> > >>> >King Jr's inspiring "I Have A Dream" speech at
> > >>> >http://www.afb.org/mlkweb.asp
> > >>> >
> > >>> >Learn how to make accessible software at
> > >>> >http://www.afb.org/accessapp.asp
> > >>> >
> > >>> >
> > >>> >
> > >>> >_______________________________________________
> > >>> >Blinux-list mailing list
> > >>> >Blinux-list@redhat.com
> > >>> >https://listman.redhat.com/mailman/listinfo/blinux-list
> > >>> >
> > >>> >
> > >>>
> > >>>
> > >>>
> > >>> _______________________________________________
> > >>> Blinux-list mailing list
> > >>> Blinux-list@redhat.com
> > >>> https://listman.redhat.com/mailman/listinfo/blinux-list
> > >>>
> > >>
> > >>--
> > >>
> > >>				Janina Sajka, Director
> > >>				Technology Research and Development
> > >>				Governmental Relations Group
> > >>				American Foundation for the Blind (AFB)
> > >>
> > >>Email: janina@afb.net		Phone: (202) 408-8175
> > >>
> > >>Chair, Accessibility SIG
> > >>Open Electronic Book Forum (OEBF)
> > >>http://www.openebook.org
> > >>
> > >>Will electronic books surpass print books? Read our white paper,
> > >>Surpassing Gutenberg, at http://www.afb.org/ebook.asp
> > >>
> > >>Download a free sample Digital Talking Book edition of Martin Luther
> > >>King Jr's inspiring "I Have A Dream" speech at
> > >>http://www.afb.org/mlkweb.asp
> > >>
> > >>Learn how to make accessible software at
> > >>http://www.afb.org/accessapp.asp
> > >>
> > >>
> > >>
> > >>_______________________________________________
> > >>Blinux-list mailing list
> > >>Blinux-list@redhat.com
> > >>https://listman.redhat.com/mailman/listinfo/blinux-list
> > >>
> > >>
> > >>
> > >>_______________________________________________
> > >>Blinux-list mailing list
> > >>Blinux-list@redhat.com
> > >>https://listman.redhat.com/mailman/listinfo/blinux-list
> > >>
> > >>
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >_______________________________________________
> > >Blinux-list mailing list
> > >Blinux-list@redhat.com
> > >https://listman.redhat.com/mailman/listinfo/blinux-list
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >_______________________________________________
> > >Blinux-list mailing list
> > >Blinux-list@redhat.com
> > >https://listman.redhat.com/mailman/listinfo/blinux-list
> > >
> > >
> >
> >
> >
> > _______________________________________________
> > Blinux-list mailing list
> > Blinux-list@redhat.com
> > https://listman.redhat.com/mailman/listinfo/blinux-list
> >
> >
> >
> > _______________________________________________
> > Blinux-list mailing list
> > Blinux-list@redhat.com
> > https://listman.redhat.com/mailman/listinfo/blinux-list
> >
>
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> Blinux-list mailing list
> Blinux-list@redhat.com
> https://listman.redhat.com/mailman/listinfo/blinux-list
>
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> Blinux-list mailing list
> Blinux-list@redhat.com
> https://listman.redhat.com/mailman/listinfo/blinux-list
>

Re: the Papenmeir device that was supposed to be coming out

[Luke Davis]

For screenreaders?  Running Linux, man.:)  No software costs.

True, however, if adding a braille display, the price does become more
reasonable.

Luke


On Thu, 15 Nov 2001, Tommy Craig wrote:

> The prices on the ELBA are $3995 for the 20 cell display and $5895 for the
> 32 cell display. You are certainly free to buy whatever you want, however,
> to the price of the Thinkpad you need to add the cost of screenreaders and
> if you want them a Braille keyboard and a Braille display. Jaws currently
> Sellss for $800 and a 20 cell display would cost you around $3000. If you
> add all of this up, the price fore the ELBA looks pretty good. Not to
> mention that the ELBA is compact and in one piece.
> Tommy
>
>
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> Blinux-list mailing list
> Blinux-list@redhat.com
> https://listman.redhat.com/mailman/listinfo/blinux-list
>

Re: the Papenmeir device that was supposed to be coming out

[Janina Sajka]

Tommy: 

Not.

Well, braille display, maybe. But the point of a notebook is portability, 
so it's likely someone who finds that a viable option is happy to forego 
any braille display. Remember, U.S. folks are big on speech, not braille.

And JFW? Not with us. Speakup, or Emacspeak, or one of the other GPL 
options. The price is right, and the software is superior. So is the OS.
 
On Thu, 15 Nov 2001, Tommy Craig wrote:

> The prices on the ELBA are $3995 for the 20 cell display and $5895 for the
> 32 cell display. You are certainly free to buy whatever you want, however,
> to the price of the Thinkpad you need to add the cost of screenreaders and
> if you want them a Braille keyboard and a Braille display. Jaws currently
> Sellss for $800 and a 20 cell display would cost you around $3000. If you
> add all of this up, the price fore the ELBA looks pretty good. Not to
> mention that the ELBA is compact and in one piece.
> Tommy
> 
> 
> 
> 
> _______________________________________________
> Blinux-list mailing list
> Blinux-list@redhat.com
> https://listman.redhat.com/mailman/listinfo/blinux-list
> 

-- 
	
				Janina Sajka, Director
				Technology Research and Development
				Governmental Relations Group
				American Foundation for the Blind (AFB)

Email: janina@afb.net		Phone: (202) 408-8175

Chair, Accessibility SIG
Open Electronic Book Forum (OEBF)
http://www.openebook.org

Will electronic books surpass print books? Read our white paper,
Surpassing Gutenberg, at http://www.afb.org/ebook.asp

Download a free sample Digital Talking Book edition of Martin Luther
King Jr's inspiring "I Have A Dream" speech at
http://www.afb.org/mlkweb.asp

Learn how to make accessible software at
http://www.afb.org/accessapp.asp

RE: the Papenmeir device that was supposed to be coming out

[Janina Sajka]

Yes, yes, Festival Lite, alias flite. I'm also trying to find out whether 
ViaVoice has (or has not) been put into open source by IBM's recent 
Eclipse venture.

 On Thu, 15 Nov 2001, Luke Davis wrote:

> Already is.  There is A festival cline that seems to work well.
> 
> 
> On Thu, 15 Nov 2001, Joel Zimba wrote:
> 
> > oh sorry,
> >
> > I wasn't clear.  I was referring to performing the re-flashing of a brlnote.
> > not the
> > happy hacking of an ipaq, which is obviously much cheaper.
> >
> > Once I get the floating point stuff out of rsynth it will run quite
> > elegantly on a small platform, and it (the ipaq) should be a pretty usable
> > little device.
> >
> > glad I can still remember how to write :)
> >
> > -----Original Message-----
> > From: blinux-list-admin@redhat.com
> > [mailto:blinux-list-admin@redhat.com]On Behalf Of Luke Davis
> > Sent: Thursday, November 15, 2001 5:01 PM
> > To: blinux-list@redhat.com
> > Subject: RE: the Papenmeir device that was supposed to be coming out
> >
> >
> > Same price?  An IPAQ is going to be around six hundred bucks, maybe seven,
> > but you don't need the color resolution.  The Elva is what?
> >
> >
> > On Thu, 15 Nov 2001, Joel Zimba wrote:
> >
> > > have a read of handhelds.org  it pretty well describes the process for the
> > > ipaq 3600...
> > >
> > > I've seen descriptions for other devices.  it's mostly the same...
> > >
> > > presumably there are the utilities for backing up wince and the linux
> > loader
> > > you would install...
> > > I would not put it on the list of practical options at the moment, but
> > > certainly possible.
> > >
> > > and the incentive to do it is pretty much nill now that a device exists
> > > which is roughly the same price and has the work already done for you.
> > >
> > > Linux on devices other then pcs will bbe much more common in the coming
> > > months.
> > > now that tts is coming to be a more mainstream feature, we can expect the
> > > level of hacking required to have reasonable access to drop dramatically.
> > >
> > > time shall tell,
> > >
> > > J
> > >
> > > -----Original Message-----
> > > From: blinux-list-admin@redhat.com
> > > [mailto:blinux-list-admin@redhat.com]On Behalf Of Brent Harding
> > > Sent: Thursday, November 15, 2001 4:07 PM
> > > To: blinux-list@redhat.com
> > > Subject: RE: the Papenmeir device that was supposed to be coming out
> > >
> > >
> > > I suppose, how would one even do this?
> > > At 02:41 PM 11/15/01 -0500, you wrote:
> > > >or you could save yourself the work and buy the elba...
> > > >
> > > >now you see the point?
> > > >
> > > >-----Original Message-----
> > > >From: blinux-list-admin@redhat.com
> > > >[mailto:blinux-list-admin@redhat.com]On Behalf Of Brent Harding
> > > >Sent: Thursday, November 15, 2001 2:50 PM
> > > >To: blinux-list@redhat.com
> > > >Subject: RE: the Papenmeir device that was supposed to be coming out
> > > >
> > > >
> > > >Wow, it'll be interesting to see how that goes, just getting it installed
> > > >might be an issue, loadlin from win CE? If the sound worked, it'd be like
> > > >having a mini computer, mp3, networking, anything we want now, easily
> > > >implemented with linux on a microdrive.
> > > >At 11:31 AM 11/15/01 -0500, you wrote:
> > > >>so if anyone is willing to sacrifice a brlnote for the cause, I'll
> > gladly
> > > >>spearhead the effort to unixize one of them!!
> > > >>now if only we can get the specs for the hardware... like the braill
> > > >>display.
> > > >>anyone have connections at pulsedaata?
> > > >>J
> > > >>
> > > >>-----Original Message-----
> > > >>From: blinux-list-admin@redhat.com
> > > >>[mailto:blinux-list-admin@redhat.com]On Behalf Of Janina Sajka
> > > >>Sent: Thursday, November 15, 2001 11:33 AM
> > > >>To: blinux-list@redhat.com
> > > >>Subject: Re: the Papenmeir device that was supposed to be coming out
> > > >>
> > > >>
> > > >>As it happens, the Braille Note is built around the MIPS chip which is
> > > >>supported by linux, so the answer is "yes," that would be possible.
> > > >>
> > > >>As a matter of fact, this is a more timely question than may first meet
> > > >>the ... ahem ... ear? <grin>
> > > >>
> > > >>The Braille Note runs Win CE, but Microsoft will no longer support MIPS
> > > >>clients with it's Win CE OS. Therefore, Pulse Data, the Braille Note's
> > > >>manufacturer finds itself dumped like a spurned lover. They have no
> > > >>tomorrow to look forward to with Microsoft. I have been suggesting they
> > > >>consider going with linux, now that their future is so up in the air.
> > > >>
> > > >> On
> > > >>Wed, 14 Nov 2001, Brent Harding wrote:
> > > >>
> > > >>> Wow, the linux is probably in some kind of rom that's unchangable so
> > if
> > > >>you
> > > >>> trash it you have something to come back to. Wonder if you could get
> > > >linux
> > > >>> on a braille note?
> > > >>> At 01:55 PM 11/14/01 -0500, you wrote:
> > > >>> >Of course it would. If it is supported in linux, it'll run wherever
> > you
> > > >>> >have linux--with the appropriate support modules installed, of
> > course.
> > > >We
> > > >>> >don't know, for example, how complete the Papenmeier linux
> > installation
> > > >>> >is. For example, I would rather doubt they've installed gnome and
> > kde,
> > > >>but
> > > >>> >I've been wrong before.
> > > >>> > On Wed, 14 Nov 2001, Brent Harding wrote:
> > > >>> >
> > > >>> >> Wow, would that likely work in the system's linux support? My
> > laptop
> > > >>isn't
> > > >>> >> working real good for audio, as the dectalk feeds an overtone in to
> > > >the
> > > >>> >> system whenever it's port is accessed, even when pulling the cable
> > > out
> > > >>and
> > > >>> >> all. The port must be giving the noise.
> > > >>> >> At 09:52 AM 11/14/01 -0500, you wrote:
> > > >>> >> >I don't mind the lack of line in. For serious audio work you'd
> > want
> > > >to
> > > >>> use
> > > >>> >> >the pcm slot with a device like the RME Hammerfalls DSP.
> > > >>> >> >
> > > >>> >> >
> > > >>> >> >On Tue, 13 Nov 2001, Tommy Craig wrote:
> > > >>> >> >
> > > >>> >> >> Yes you can use your own software. As for line in and out, It
> > > >>definately
> > > >>> >> has
> > > >>> >> >> line out. I don't believe that it has line in. It does have a
> > > built
> > > >>in
> > > >>> >> >> microphone.
> > > >>> >> >> Tommy
> > > >>> >> >>
> > > >>> >> >>
> > > >>> >> >>
> > > >>> >> >>
> > > >>> >> >> _______________________________________________
> > > >>> >> >> Blinux-list mailing list
> > > >>> >> >> Blinux-list@redhat.com
> > > >>> >> >> https://listman.redhat.com/mailman/listinfo/blinux-list
> > > >>> >> >>
> > > >>> >> >
> > > >>> >> >--
> > > >>> >> >
> > > >>> >> >				Janina Sajka, Director
> > > >>> >> >				Technology Research and Development
> > > >>> >> >				Governmental Relations Group
> > > >>> >> >				American Foundation for the Blind (AFB)
> > > >>> >> >
> > > >>> >> >Email: janina@afb.net		Phone: (202) 408-8175
> > > >>> >> >
> > > >>> >> >Chair, Accessibility SIG
> > > >>> >> >Open Electronic Book Forum (OEBF)
> > > >>> >> >http://www.openebook.org
> > > >>> >> >
> > > >>> >> >Will electronic books surpass print books? Read our white paper,
> > > >>> >> >Surpassing Gutenberg, at http://www.afb.org/ebook.asp
> > > >>> >> >
> > > >>> >> >Download a free sample Digital Talking Book edition of Martin
> > Luther
> > > >>> >> >King Jr's inspiring "I Have A Dream" speech at
> > > >>> >> >http://www.afb.org/mlkweb.asp
> > > >>> >> >
> > > >>> >> >Learn how to make accessible software at
> > > >>> >> >http://www.afb.org/accessapp.asp
> > > >>> >> >
> > > >>> >> >
> > > >>> >> >
> > > >>> >> >_______________________________________________
> > > >>> >> >Blinux-list mailing list
> > > >>> >> >Blinux-list@redhat.com
> > > >>> >> >https://listman.redhat.com/mailman/listinfo/blinux-list
> > > >>> >> >
> > > >>> >> >
> > > >>> >>
> > > >>> >>
> > > >>> >>
> > > >>> >> _______________________________________________
> > > >>> >> Blinux-list mailing list
> > > >>> >> Blinux-list@redhat.com
> > > >>> >> https://listman.redhat.com/mailman/listinfo/blinux-list
> > > >>> >>
> > > >>> >
> > > >>> >--
> > > >>> >
> > > >>> >				Janina Sajka, Director
> > > >>> >				Technology Research and Development
> > > >>> >				Governmental Relations Group
> > > >>> >				American Foundation for the Blind (AFB)
> > > >>> >
> > > >>> >Email: janina@afb.net		Phone: (202) 408-8175
> > > >>> >
> > > >>> >Chair, Accessibility SIG
> > > >>> >Open Electronic Book Forum (OEBF)
> > > >>> >http://www.openebook.org
> > > >>> >
> > > >>> >Will electronic books surpass print books? Read our white paper,
> > > >>> >Surpassing Gutenberg, at http://www.afb.org/ebook.asp
> > > >>> >
> > > >>> >Download a free sample Digital Talking Book edition of Martin Luther
> > > >>> >King Jr's inspiring "I Have A Dream" speech at
> > > >>> >http://www.afb.org/mlkweb.asp
> > > >>> >
> > > >>> >Learn how to make accessible software at
> > > >>> >http://www.afb.org/accessapp.asp
> > > >>> >
> > > >>> >
> > > >>> >
> > > >>> >_______________________________________________
> > > >>> >Blinux-list mailing list
> > > >>> >Blinux-list@redhat.com
> > > >>> >https://listman.redhat.com/mailman/listinfo/blinux-list
> > > >>> >
> > > >>> >
> > > >>>
> > > >>>
> > > >>>
> > > >>> _______________________________________________
> > > >>> Blinux-list mailing list
> > > >>> Blinux-list@redhat.com
> > > >>> https://listman.redhat.com/mailman/listinfo/blinux-list
> > > >>>
> > > >>
> > > >>--
> > > >>
> > > >>				Janina Sajka, Director
> > > >>				Technology Research and Development
> > > >>				Governmental Relations Group
> > > >>				American Foundation for the Blind (AFB)
> > > >>
> > > >>Email: janina@afb.net		Phone: (202) 408-8175
> > > >>
> > > >>Chair, Accessibility SIG
> > > >>Open Electronic Book Forum (OEBF)
> > > >>http://www.openebook.org
> > > >>
> > > >>Will electronic books surpass print books? Read our white paper,
> > > >>Surpassing Gutenberg, at http://www.afb.org/ebook.asp
> > > >>
> > > >>Download a free sample Digital Talking Book edition of Martin Luther
> > > >>King Jr's inspiring "I Have A Dream" speech at
> > > >>http://www.afb.org/mlkweb.asp
> > > >>
> > > >>Learn how to make accessible software at
> > > >>http://www.afb.org/accessapp.asp
> > > >>
> > > >>
> > > >>
> > > >>_______________________________________________
> > > >>Blinux-list mailing list
> > > >>Blinux-list@redhat.com
> > > >>https://listman.redhat.com/mailman/listinfo/blinux-list
> > > >>
> > > >>
> > > >>
> > > >>_______________________________________________
> > > >>Blinux-list mailing list
> > > >>Blinux-list@redhat.com
> > > >>https://listman.redhat.com/mailman/listinfo/blinux-list
> > > >>
> > > >>
> > > >
> > > >
> > > >
> > > >_______________________________________________
> > > >Blinux-list mailing list
> > > >Blinux-list@redhat.com
> > > >https://listman.redhat.com/mailman/listinfo/blinux-list
> > > >
> > > >
> > > >
> > > >_______________________________________________
> > > >Blinux-list mailing list
> > > >Blinux-list@redhat.com
> > > >https://listman.redhat.com/mailman/listinfo/blinux-list
> > > >
> > > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > > _______________________________________________
> > > Blinux-list mailing list
> > > Blinux-list@redhat.com
> > > https://listman.redhat.com/mailman/listinfo/blinux-list
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > > _______________________________________________
> > > Blinux-list mailing list
> > > Blinux-list@redhat.com
> > > https://listman.redhat.com/mailman/listinfo/blinux-list
> > >
> >
> >
> >
> > _______________________________________________
> > Blinux-list mailing list
> > Blinux-list@redhat.com
> > https://listman.redhat.com/mailman/listinfo/blinux-list
> >
> >
> >
> > _______________________________________________
> > Blinux-list mailing list
> > Blinux-list@redhat.com
> > https://listman.redhat.com/mailman/listinfo/blinux-list
> >
> 
> 
> 
> _______________________________________________
> Blinux-list mailing list
> Blinux-list@redhat.com
> https://listman.redhat.com/mailman/listinfo/blinux-list
> 

-- 
	
				Janina Sajka, Director
				Technology Research and Development
				Governmental Relations Group
				American Foundation for the Blind (AFB)

Email: janina@afb.net		Phone: (202) 408-8175

Chair, Accessibility SIG
Open Electronic Book Forum (OEBF)
http://www.openebook.org

Will electronic books surpass print books? Read our white paper,
Surpassing Gutenberg, at http://www.afb.org/ebook.asp

Download a free sample Digital Talking Book edition of Martin Luther
King Jr's inspiring "I Have A Dream" speech at
http://www.afb.org/mlkweb.asp

Learn how to make accessible software at
http://www.afb.org/accessapp.asp

Re: the Papenmeir device that was supposed to be coming out

[Buddy Brannan]

Let's not forget (besides free as in beer) the other aspects of free
software--the freedoms to help yourself, help your neighbor, and
distribute your changes. Yes, the price is right, but the freedom is
better. 
-- 
Buddy Brannan, KB5ELV    | From the pines down to the projects,
Email: davros@ycardz.com | Life pushes up through the cracks.
Phone: (972) 276-6360    | And it's only going forward,
ICQ: 36621210            | And it's never going back.--Small Potatoes

RE: the Papenmeir device that was supposed to be coming out

[Brent Harding]

Why would tts be more mainstream? It's not really needed in the main
stream, but in the blindness market. So, does that mean, CE isn't in rom on
the braille note, so if I screw it up, I blew my whole notetaker?
At 04:32 PM 11/15/01 -0500, you wrote:
>have a read of handhelds.org  it pretty well describes the process for the
>ipaq 3600...
>
>I've seen descriptions for other devices.  it's mostly the same...
>
>presumably there are the utilities for backing up wince and the linux loader
>you would install...
>I would not put it on the list of practical options at the moment, but
>certainly possible.
>
>and the incentive to do it is pretty much nill now that a device exists
>which is roughly the same price and has the work already done for you.
>
>Linux on devices other then pcs will bbe much more common in the coming
>months.
>now that tts is coming to be a more mainstream feature, we can expect the
>level of hacking required to have reasonable access to drop dramatically.
>
>time shall tell,
>
>J
>
>-----Original Message-----
>From: blinux-list-admin@redhat.com
>[mailto:blinux-list-admin@redhat.com]On Behalf Of Brent Harding
>Sent: Thursday, November 15, 2001 4:07 PM
>To: blinux-list@redhat.com
>Subject: RE: the Papenmeir device that was supposed to be coming out
>
>
>I suppose, how would one even do this?
>At 02:41 PM 11/15/01 -0500, you wrote:
>>or you could save yourself the work and buy the elba...
>>
>>now you see the point?
>>
>>-----Original Message-----
>>From: blinux-list-admin@redhat.com
>>[mailto:blinux-list-admin@redhat.com]On Behalf Of Brent Harding
>>Sent: Thursday, November 15, 2001 2:50 PM
>>To: blinux-list@redhat.com
>>Subject: RE: the Papenmeir device that was supposed to be coming out
>>
>>
>>Wow, it'll be interesting to see how that goes, just getting it installed
>>might be an issue, loadlin from win CE? If the sound worked, it'd be like
>>having a mini computer, mp3, networking, anything we want now, easily
>>implemented with linux on a microdrive.
>>At 11:31 AM 11/15/01 -0500, you wrote:
>>>so if anyone is willing to sacrifice a brlnote for the cause, I'll gladly
>>>spearhead the effort to unixize one of them!!
>>>now if only we can get the specs for the hardware... like the braill
>>>display.
>>>anyone have connections at pulsedaata?
>>>J
>>>
>>>-----Original Message-----
>>>From: blinux-list-admin@redhat.com
>>>[mailto:blinux-list-admin@redhat.com]On Behalf Of Janina Sajka
>>>Sent: Thursday, November 15, 2001 11:33 AM
>>>To: blinux-list@redhat.com
>>>Subject: Re: the Papenmeir device that was supposed to be coming out
>>>
>>>
>>>As it happens, the Braille Note is built around the MIPS chip which is
>>>supported by linux, so the answer is "yes," that would be possible.
>>>
>>>As a matter of fact, this is a more timely question than may first meet
>>>the ... ahem ... ear? <grin>
>>>
>>>The Braille Note runs Win CE, but Microsoft will no longer support MIPS
>>>clients with it's Win CE OS. Therefore, Pulse Data, the Braille Note's
>>>manufacturer finds itself dumped like a spurned lover. They have no
>>>tomorrow to look forward to with Microsoft. I have been suggesting they
>>>consider going with linux, now that their future is so up in the air.
>>>
>>> On
>>>Wed, 14 Nov 2001, Brent Harding wrote:
>>>
>>>> Wow, the linux is probably in some kind of rom that's unchangable so if
>>>you
>>>> trash it you have something to come back to. Wonder if you could get
>>linux
>>>> on a braille note?
>>>> At 01:55 PM 11/14/01 -0500, you wrote:
>>>> >Of course it would. If it is supported in linux, it'll run wherever you
>>>> >have linux--with the appropriate support modules installed, of course.
>>We
>>>> >don't know, for example, how complete the Papenmeier linux installation
>>>> >is. For example, I would rather doubt they've installed gnome and kde,
>>>but
>>>> >I've been wrong before.
>>>> > On Wed, 14 Nov 2001, Brent Harding wrote:
>>>> >
>>>> >> Wow, would that likely work in the system's linux support? My laptop
>>>isn't
>>>> >> working real good for audio, as the dectalk feeds an overtone in to
>>the
>>>> >> system whenever it's port is accessed, even when pulling the cable
>out
>>>and
>>>> >> all. The port must be giving the noise.
>>>> >> At 09:52 AM 11/14/01 -0500, you wrote:
>>>> >> >I don't mind the lack of line in. For serious audio work you'd want
>>to
>>>> use
>>>> >> >the pcm slot with a device like the RME Hammerfalls DSP.
>>>> >> >
>>>> >> >
>>>> >> >On Tue, 13 Nov 2001, Tommy Craig wrote:
>>>> >> >
>>>> >> >> Yes you can use your own software. As for line in and out, It
>>>definately
>>>> >> has
>>>> >> >> line out. I don't believe that it has line in. It does have a
>built
>>>in
>>>> >> >> microphone.
>>>> >> >> Tommy
>>>> >> >>
>>>> >> >>
>>>> >> >>
>>>> >> >>
>>>> >> >> _______________________________________________
>>>> >> >> Blinux-list mailing list
>>>> >> >> Blinux-list@redhat.com
>>>> >> >> https://listman.redhat.com/mailman/listinfo/blinux-list
>>>> >> >>
>>>> >> >
>>>> >> >--
>>>> >> >
>>>> >> >				Janina Sajka, Director
>>>> >> >				Technology Research and Development
>>>> >> >				Governmental Relations Group
>>>> >> >				American Foundation for the Blind (AFB)
>>>> >> >
>>>> >> >Email: janina@afb.net		Phone: (202) 408-8175
>>>> >> >
>>>> >> >Chair, Accessibility SIG
>>>> >> >Open Electronic Book Forum (OEBF)
>>>> >> >http://www.openebook.org
>>>> >> >
>>>> >> >Will electronic books surpass print books? Read our white paper,
>>>> >> >Surpassing Gutenberg, at http://www.afb.org/ebook.asp
>>>> >> >
>>>> >> >Download a free sample Digital Talking Book edition of Martin Luther
>>>> >> >King Jr's inspiring "I Have A Dream" speech at
>>>> >> >http://www.afb.org/mlkweb.asp
>>>> >> >
>>>> >> >Learn how to make accessible software at
>>>> >> >http://www.afb.org/accessapp.asp
>>>> >> >
>>>> >> >
>>>> >> >
>>>> >> >_______________________________________________
>>>> >> >Blinux-list mailing list
>>>> >> >Blinux-list@redhat.com
>>>> >> >https://listman.redhat.com/mailman/listinfo/blinux-list
>>>> >> >
>>>> >> >
>>>> >>
>>>> >>
>>>> >>
>>>> >> _______________________________________________
>>>> >> Blinux-list mailing list
>>>> >> Blinux-list@redhat.com
>>>> >> https://listman.redhat.com/mailman/listinfo/blinux-list
>>>> >>
>>>> >
>>>> >--
>>>> >
>>>> >				Janina Sajka, Director
>>>> >				Technology Research and Development
>>>> >				Governmental Relations Group
>>>> >				American Foundation for the Blind (AFB)
>>>> >
>>>> >Email: janina@afb.net		Phone: (202) 408-8175
>>>> >
>>>> >Chair, Accessibility SIG
>>>> >Open Electronic Book Forum (OEBF)
>>>> >http://www.openebook.org
>>>> >
>>>> >Will electronic books surpass print books? Read our white paper,
>>>> >Surpassing Gutenberg, at http://www.afb.org/ebook.asp
>>>> >
>>>> >Download a free sample Digital Talking Book edition of Martin Luther
>>>> >King Jr's inspiring "I Have A Dream" speech at
>>>> >http://www.afb.org/mlkweb.asp
>>>> >
>>>> >Learn how to make accessible software at
>>>> >http://www.afb.org/accessapp.asp
>>>> >
>>>> >
>>>> >
>>>> >_______________________________________________
>>>> >Blinux-list mailing list
>>>> >Blinux-list@redhat.com
>>>> >https://listman.redhat.com/mailman/listinfo/blinux-list
>>>> >
>>>> >
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> _______________________________________________
>>>> Blinux-list mailing list
>>>> Blinux-list@redhat.com
>>>> https://listman.redhat.com/mailman/listinfo/blinux-list
>>>>
>>>
>>>--
>>>
>>>				Janina Sajka, Director
>>>				Technology Research and Development
>>>				Governmental Relations Group
>>>				American Foundation for the Blind (AFB)
>>>
>>>Email: janina@afb.net		Phone: (202) 408-8175
>>>
>>>Chair, Accessibility SIG
>>>Open Electronic Book Forum (OEBF)
>>>http://www.openebook.org
>>>
>>>Will electronic books surpass print books? Read our white paper,
>>>Surpassing Gutenberg, at http://www.afb.org/ebook.asp
>>>
>>>Download a free sample Digital Talking Book edition of Martin Luther
>>>King Jr's inspiring "I Have A Dream" speech at
>>>http://www.afb.org/mlkweb.asp
>>>
>>>Learn how to make accessible software at
>>>http://www.afb.org/accessapp.asp
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>_______________________________________________
>>>Blinux-list mailing list
>>>Blinux-list@redhat.com
>>>https://listman.redhat.com/mailman/listinfo/blinux-list
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>_______________________________________________
>>>Blinux-list mailing list
>>>Blinux-list@redhat.com
>>>https://listman.redhat.com/mailman/listinfo/blinux-list
>>>
>>>
>>
>>
>>
>>_______________________________________________
>>Blinux-list mailing list
>>Blinux-list@redhat.com
>>https://listman.redhat.com/mailman/listinfo/blinux-list
>>
>>
>>
>>_______________________________________________
>>Blinux-list mailing list
>>Blinux-list@redhat.com
>>https://listman.redhat.com/mailman/listinfo/blinux-list
>>
>>
>
>
>
>_______________________________________________
>Blinux-list mailing list
>Blinux-list@redhat.com
>https://listman.redhat.com/mailman/listinfo/blinux-list
>
>
>
>_______________________________________________
>Blinux-list mailing list
>Blinux-list@redhat.com
>https://listman.redhat.com/mailman/listinfo/blinux-list
>
>

RE: the Papenmeir device that was supposed to be coming out

[Brent Harding]

One problem, handwriting recognition would be useless to me. Does the ipaq
have an accessible form of input, keyboard, etc?
At 05:01 PM 11/15/01 -0500, you wrote:
>Same price?  An IPAQ is going to be around six hundred bucks, maybe seven,
>but you don't need the color resolution.  The Elva is what?
>
>
>On Thu, 15 Nov 2001, Joel Zimba wrote:
>
>> have a read of handhelds.org  it pretty well describes the process for the
>> ipaq 3600...
>>
>> I've seen descriptions for other devices.  it's mostly the same...
>>
>> presumably there are the utilities for backing up wince and the linux
loader
>> you would install...
>> I would not put it on the list of practical options at the moment, but
>> certainly possible.
>>
>> and the incentive to do it is pretty much nill now that a device exists
>> which is roughly the same price and has the work already done for you.
>>
>> Linux on devices other then pcs will bbe much more common in the coming
>> months.
>> now that tts is coming to be a more mainstream feature, we can expect the
>> level of hacking required to have reasonable access to drop dramatically.
>>
>> time shall tell,
>>
>> J
>>
>> -----Original Message-----
>> From: blinux-list-admin@redhat.com
>> [mailto:blinux-list-admin@redhat.com]On Behalf Of Brent Harding
>> Sent: Thursday, November 15, 2001 4:07 PM
>> To: blinux-list@redhat.com
>> Subject: RE: the Papenmeir device that was supposed to be coming out
>>
>>
>> I suppose, how would one even do this?
>> At 02:41 PM 11/15/01 -0500, you wrote:
>> >or you could save yourself the work and buy the elba...
>> >
>> >now you see the point?
>> >
>> >-----Original Message-----
>> >From: blinux-list-admin@redhat.com
>> >[mailto:blinux-list-admin@redhat.com]On Behalf Of Brent Harding
>> >Sent: Thursday, November 15, 2001 2:50 PM
>> >To: blinux-list@redhat.com
>> >Subject: RE: the Papenmeir device that was supposed to be coming out
>> >
>> >
>> >Wow, it'll be interesting to see how that goes, just getting it installed
>> >might be an issue, loadlin from win CE? If the sound worked, it'd be like
>> >having a mini computer, mp3, networking, anything we want now, easily
>> >implemented with linux on a microdrive.
>> >At 11:31 AM 11/15/01 -0500, you wrote:
>> >>so if anyone is willing to sacrifice a brlnote for the cause, I'll gladly
>> >>spearhead the effort to unixize one of them!!
>> >>now if only we can get the specs for the hardware... like the braill
>> >>display.
>> >>anyone have connections at pulsedaata?
>> >>J
>> >>
>> >>-----Original Message-----
>> >>From: blinux-list-admin@redhat.com
>> >>[mailto:blinux-list-admin@redhat.com]On Behalf Of Janina Sajka
>> >>Sent: Thursday, November 15, 2001 11:33 AM
>> >>To: blinux-list@redhat.com
>> >>Subject: Re: the Papenmeir device that was supposed to be coming out
>> >>
>> >>
>> >>As it happens, the Braille Note is built around the MIPS chip which is
>> >>supported by linux, so the answer is "yes," that would be possible.
>> >>
>> >>As a matter of fact, this is a more timely question than may first meet
>> >>the ... ahem ... ear? <grin>
>> >>
>> >>The Braille Note runs Win CE, but Microsoft will no longer support MIPS
>> >>clients with it's Win CE OS. Therefore, Pulse Data, the Braille Note's
>> >>manufacturer finds itself dumped like a spurned lover. They have no
>> >>tomorrow to look forward to with Microsoft. I have been suggesting they
>> >>consider going with linux, now that their future is so up in the air.
>> >>
>> >> On
>> >>Wed, 14 Nov 2001, Brent Harding wrote:
>> >>
>> >>> Wow, the linux is probably in some kind of rom that's unchangable so if
>> >>you
>> >>> trash it you have something to come back to. Wonder if you could get
>> >linux
>> >>> on a braille note?
>> >>> At 01:55 PM 11/14/01 -0500, you wrote:
>> >>> >Of course it would. If it is supported in linux, it'll run wherever
you
>> >>> >have linux--with the appropriate support modules installed, of course.
>> >We
>> >>> >don't know, for example, how complete the Papenmeier linux
installation
>> >>> >is. For example, I would rather doubt they've installed gnome and kde,
>> >>but
>> >>> >I've been wrong before.
>> >>> > On Wed, 14 Nov 2001, Brent Harding wrote:
>> >>> >
>> >>> >> Wow, would that likely work in the system's linux support? My laptop
>> >>isn't
>> >>> >> working real good for audio, as the dectalk feeds an overtone in to
>> >the
>> >>> >> system whenever it's port is accessed, even when pulling the cable
>> out
>> >>and
>> >>> >> all. The port must be giving the noise.
>> >>> >> At 09:52 AM 11/14/01 -0500, you wrote:
>> >>> >> >I don't mind the lack of line in. For serious audio work you'd want
>> >to
>> >>> use
>> >>> >> >the pcm slot with a device like the RME Hammerfalls DSP.
>> >>> >> >
>> >>> >> >
>> >>> >> >On Tue, 13 Nov 2001, Tommy Craig wrote:
>> >>> >> >
>> >>> >> >> Yes you can use your own software. As for line in and out, It
>> >>definately
>> >>> >> has
>> >>> >> >> line out. I don't believe that it has line in. It does have a
>> built
>> >>in
>> >>> >> >> microphone.
>> >>> >> >> Tommy
>> >>> >> >>
>> >>> >> >>
>> >>> >> >>
>> >>> >> >>
>> >>> >> >> _______________________________________________
>> >>> >> >> Blinux-list mailing list
>> >>> >> >> Blinux-list@redhat.com
>> >>> >> >> https://listman.redhat.com/mailman/listinfo/blinux-list
>> >>> >> >>
>> >>> >> >
>> >>> >> >--
>> >>> >> >
>> >>> >> >				Janina Sajka, Director
>> >>> >> >				Technology Research and Development
>> >>> >> >				Governmental Relations Group
>> >>> >> >				American Foundation for the Blind (AFB)
>> >>> >> >
>> >>> >> >Email: janina@afb.net		Phone: (202) 408-8175
>> >>> >> >
>> >>> >> >Chair, Accessibility SIG
>> >>> >> >Open Electronic Book Forum (OEBF)
>> >>> >> >http://www.openebook.org
>> >>> >> >
>> >>> >> >Will electronic books surpass print books? Read our white paper,
>> >>> >> >Surpassing Gutenberg, at http://www.afb.org/ebook.asp
>> >>> >> >
>> >>> >> >Download a free sample Digital Talking Book edition of Martin
Luther
>> >>> >> >King Jr's inspiring "I Have A Dream" speech at
>> >>> >> >http://www.afb.org/mlkweb.asp
>> >>> >> >
>> >>> >> >Learn how to make accessible software at
>> >>> >> >http://www.afb.org/accessapp.asp
>> >>> >> >
>> >>> >> >
>> >>> >> >
>> >>> >> >_______________________________________________
>> >>> >> >Blinux-list mailing list
>> >>> >> >Blinux-list@redhat.com
>> >>> >> >https://listman.redhat.com/mailman/listinfo/blinux-list
>> >>> >> >
>> >>> >> >
>> >>> >>
>> >>> >>
>> >>> >>
>> >>> >> _______________________________________________
>> >>> >> Blinux-list mailing list
>> >>> >> Blinux-list@redhat.com
>> >>> >> https://listman.redhat.com/mailman/listinfo/blinux-list
>> >>> >>
>> >>> >
>> >>> >--
>> >>> >
>> >>> >				Janina Sajka, Director
>> >>> >				Technology Research and Development
>> >>> >				Governmental Relations Group
>> >>> >				American Foundation for the Blind (AFB)
>> >>> >
>> >>> >Email: janina@afb.net		Phone: (202) 408-8175
>> >>> >
>> >>> >Chair, Accessibility SIG
>> >>> >Open Electronic Book Forum (OEBF)
>> >>> >http://www.openebook.org
>> >>> >
>> >>> >Will electronic books surpass print books? Read our white paper,
>> >>> >Surpassing Gutenberg, at http://www.afb.org/ebook.asp
>> >>> >
>> >>> >Download a free sample Digital Talking Book edition of Martin Luther
>> >>> >King Jr's inspiring "I Have A Dream" speech at
>> >>> >http://www.afb.org/mlkweb.asp
>> >>> >
>> >>> >Learn how to make accessible software at
>> >>> >http://www.afb.org/accessapp.asp
>> >>> >
>> >>> >
>> >>> >
>> >>> >_______________________________________________
>> >>> >Blinux-list mailing list
>> >>> >Blinux-list@redhat.com
>> >>> >https://listman.redhat.com/mailman/listinfo/blinux-list
>> >>> >
>> >>> >
>> >>>
>> >>>
>> >>>
>> >>> _______________________________________________
>> >>> Blinux-list mailing list
>> >>> Blinux-list@redhat.com
>> >>> https://listman.redhat.com/mailman/listinfo/blinux-list
>> >>>
>> >>
>> >>--
>> >>
>> >>				Janina Sajka, Director
>> >>				Technology Research and Development
>> >>				Governmental Relations Group
>> >>				American Foundation for the Blind (AFB)
>> >>
>> >>Email: janina@afb.net		Phone: (202) 408-8175
>> >>
>> >>Chair, Accessibility SIG
>> >>Open Electronic Book Forum (OEBF)
>> >>http://www.openebook.org
>> >>
>> >>Will electronic books surpass print books? Read our white paper,
>> >>Surpassing Gutenberg, at http://www.afb.org/ebook.asp
>> >>
>> >>Download a free sample Digital Talking Book edition of Martin Luther
>> >>King Jr's inspiring "I Have A Dream" speech at
>> >>http://www.afb.org/mlkweb.asp
>> >>
>> >>Learn how to make accessible software at
>> >>http://www.afb.org/accessapp.asp
>> >>
>> >>
>> >>
>> >>_______________________________________________
>> >>Blinux-list mailing list
>> >>Blinux-list@redhat.com
>> >>https://listman.redhat.com/mailman/listinfo/blinux-list
>> >>
>> >>
>> >>
>> >>_______________________________________________
>> >>Blinux-list mailing list
>> >>Blinux-list@redhat.com
>> >>https://listman.redhat.com/mailman/listinfo/blinux-list
>> >>
>> >>
>> >
>> >
>> >
>> >_______________________________________________
>> >Blinux-list mailing list
>> >Blinux-list@redhat.com
>> >https://listman.redhat.com/mailman/listinfo/blinux-list
>> >
>> >
>> >
>> >_______________________________________________
>> >Blinux-list mailing list
>> >Blinux-list@redhat.com
>> >https://listman.redhat.com/mailman/listinfo/blinux-list
>> >
>> >
>>
>>
>>
>> _______________________________________________
>> Blinux-list mailing list
>> Blinux-list@redhat.com
>> https://listman.redhat.com/mailman/listinfo/blinux-list
>>
>>
>>
>> _______________________________________________
>> Blinux-list mailing list
>> Blinux-list@redhat.com
>> https://listman.redhat.com/mailman/listinfo/blinux-list
>>
>
>
>
>_______________________________________________
>Blinux-list mailing list
>Blinux-list@redhat.com
>https://listman.redhat.com/mailman/listinfo/blinux-list
>
>

RE: the Papenmeir device that was supposed to be coming out

[Luke Davis]

Subscribe to ipaq@handhelds.org--they can point you to keyboards.  There
are a couple that work, although I have nothing firm on which ones.

Luke


On Thu, 15 Nov 2001, Brent Harding wrote:

> One problem, handwriting recognition would be useless to me. Does the ipaq
> have an accessible form of input, keyboard, etc?
> At 05:01 PM 11/15/01 -0500, you wrote:
> >Same price?  An IPAQ is going to be around six hundred bucks, maybe seven,
> >but you don't need the color resolution.  The Elva is what?
> >
> >
> >On Thu, 15 Nov 2001, Joel Zimba wrote:
> >
> >> have a read of handhelds.org  it pretty well describes the process for the
> >> ipaq 3600...
> >>
> >> I've seen descriptions for other devices.  it's mostly the same...
> >>
> >> presumably there are the utilities for backing up wince and the linux
> loader
> >> you would install...
> >> I would not put it on the list of practical options at the moment, but
> >> certainly possible.
> >>
> >> and the incentive to do it is pretty much nill now that a device exists
> >> which is roughly the same price and has the work already done for you.
> >>
> >> Linux on devices other then pcs will bbe much more common in the coming
> >> months.
> >> now that tts is coming to be a more mainstream feature, we can expect the
> >> level of hacking required to have reasonable access to drop dramatically.
> >>
> >> time shall tell,
> >>
> >> J
> >>
> >> -----Original Message-----
> >> From: blinux-list-admin@redhat.com
> >> [mailto:blinux-list-admin@redhat.com]On Behalf Of Brent Harding
> >> Sent: Thursday, November 15, 2001 4:07 PM
> >> To: blinux-list@redhat.com
> >> Subject: RE: the Papenmeir device that was supposed to be coming out
> >>
> >>
> >> I suppose, how would one even do this?
> >> At 02:41 PM 11/15/01 -0500, you wrote:
> >> >or you could save yourself the work and buy the elba...
> >> >
> >> >now you see the point?
> >> >
> >> >-----Original Message-----
> >> >From: blinux-list-admin@redhat.com
> >> >[mailto:blinux-list-admin@redhat.com]On Behalf Of Brent Harding
> >> >Sent: Thursday, November 15, 2001 2:50 PM
> >> >To: blinux-list@redhat.com
> >> >Subject: RE: the Papenmeir device that was supposed to be coming out
> >> >
> >> >
> >> >Wow, it'll be interesting to see how that goes, just getting it installed
> >> >might be an issue, loadlin from win CE? If the sound worked, it'd be like
> >> >having a mini computer, mp3, networking, anything we want now, easily
> >> >implemented with linux on a microdrive.
> >> >At 11:31 AM 11/15/01 -0500, you wrote:
> >> >>so if anyone is willing to sacrifice a brlnote for the cause, I'll gladly
> >> >>spearhead the effort to unixize one of them!!
> >> >>now if only we can get the specs for the hardware... like the braill
> >> >>display.
> >> >>anyone have connections at pulsedaata?
> >> >>J
> >> >>
> >> >>-----Original Message-----
> >> >>From: blinux-list-admin@redhat.com
> >> >>[mailto:blinux-list-admin@redhat.com]On Behalf Of Janina Sajka
> >> >>Sent: Thursday, November 15, 2001 11:33 AM
> >> >>To: blinux-list@redhat.com
> >> >>Subject: Re: the Papenmeir device that was supposed to be coming out
> >> >>
> >> >>
> >> >>As it happens, the Braille Note is built around the MIPS chip which is
> >> >>supported by linux, so the answer is "yes," that would be possible.
> >> >>
> >> >>As a matter of fact, this is a more timely question than may first meet
> >> >>the ... ahem ... ear? <grin>
> >> >>
> >> >>The Braille Note runs Win CE, but Microsoft will no longer support MIPS
> >> >>clients with it's Win CE OS. Therefore, Pulse Data, the Braille Note's
> >> >>manufacturer finds itself dumped like a spurned lover. They have no
> >> >>tomorrow to look forward to with Microsoft. I have been suggesting they
> >> >>consider going with linux, now that their future is so up in the air.
> >> >>
> >> >> On
> >> >>Wed, 14 Nov 2001, Brent Harding wrote:
> >> >>
> >> >>> Wow, the linux is probably in some kind of rom that's unchangable so if
> >> >>you
> >> >>> trash it you have something to come back to. Wonder if you could get
> >> >linux
> >> >>> on a braille note?
> >> >>> At 01:55 PM 11/14/01 -0500, you wrote:
> >> >>> >Of course it would. If it is supported in linux, it'll run wherever
> you
> >> >>> >have linux--with the appropriate support modules installed, of course.
> >> >We
> >> >>> >don't know, for example, how complete the Papenmeier linux
> installation
> >> >>> >is. For example, I would rather doubt they've installed gnome and kde,
> >> >>but
> >> >>> >I've been wrong before.
> >> >>> > On Wed, 14 Nov 2001, Brent Harding wrote:
> >> >>> >
> >> >>> >> Wow, would that likely work in the system's linux support? My laptop
> >> >>isn't
> >> >>> >> working real good for audio, as the dectalk feeds an overtone in to
> >> >the
> >> >>> >> system whenever it's port is accessed, even when pulling the cable
> >> out
> >> >>and
> >> >>> >> all. The port must be giving the noise.
> >> >>> >> At 09:52 AM 11/14/01 -0500, you wrote:
> >> >>> >> >I don't mind the lack of line in. For serious audio work you'd want
> >> >to
> >> >>> use
> >> >>> >> >the pcm slot with a device like the RME Hammerfalls DSP.
> >> >>> >> >
> >> >>> >> >
> >> >>> >> >On Tue, 13 Nov 2001, Tommy Craig wrote:
> >> >>> >> >
> >> >>> >> >> Yes you can use your own software. As for line in and out, It
> >> >>definately
> >> >>> >> has
> >> >>> >> >> line out. I don't believe that it has line in. It does have a
> >> built
> >> >>in
> >> >>> >> >> microphone.
> >> >>> >> >> Tommy
> >> >>> >> >>
> >> >>> >> >>
> >> >>> >> >>
> >> >>> >> >>
> >> >>> >> >> _______________________________________________
> >> >>> >> >> Blinux-list mailing list
> >> >>> >> >> Blinux-list@redhat.com
> >> >>> >> >> https://listman.redhat.com/mailman/listinfo/blinux-list
> >> >>> >> >>
> >> >>> >> >
> >> >>> >> >--
> >> >>> >> >
> >> >>> >> >				Janina Sajka, Director
> >> >>> >> >				Technology Research and Development
> >> >>> >> >				Governmental Relations Group
> >> >>> >> >				American Foundation for the Blind (AFB)
> >> >>> >> >
> >> >>> >> >Email: janina@afb.net		Phone: (202) 408-8175
> >> >>> >> >
> >> >>> >> >Chair, Accessibility SIG
> >> >>> >> >Open Electronic Book Forum (OEBF)
> >> >>> >> >http://www.openebook.org
> >> >>> >> >
> >> >>> >> >Will electronic books surpass print books? Read our white paper,
> >> >>> >> >Surpassing Gutenberg, at http://www.afb.org/ebook.asp
> >> >>> >> >
> >> >>> >> >Download a free sample Digital Talking Book edition of Martin
> Luther
> >> >>> >> >King Jr's inspiring "I Have A Dream" speech at
> >> >>> >> >http://www.afb.org/mlkweb.asp
> >> >>> >> >
> >> >>> >> >Learn how to make accessible software at
> >> >>> >> >http://www.afb.org/accessapp.asp
> >> >>> >> >
> >> >>> >> >
> >> >>> >> >
> >> >>> >> >_______________________________________________
> >> >>> >> >Blinux-list mailing list
> >> >>> >> >Blinux-list@redhat.com
> >> >>> >> >https://listman.redhat.com/mailman/listinfo/blinux-list
> >> >>> >> >
> >> >>> >> >
> >> >>> >>
> >> >>> >>
> >> >>> >>
> >> >>> >> _______________________________________________
> >> >>> >> Blinux-list mailing list
> >> >>> >> Blinux-list@redhat.com
> >> >>> >> https://listman.redhat.com/mailman/listinfo/blinux-list
> >> >>> >>
> >> >>> >
> >> >>> >--
> >> >>> >
> >> >>> >				Janina Sajka, Director
> >> >>> >				Technology Research and Development
> >> >>> >				Governmental Relations Group
> >> >>> >				American Foundation for the Blind (AFB)
> >> >>> >
> >> >>> >Email: janina@afb.net		Phone: (202) 408-8175
> >> >>> >
> >> >>> >Chair, Accessibility SIG
> >> >>> >Open Electronic Book Forum (OEBF)
> >> >>> >http://www.openebook.org
> >> >>> >
> >> >>> >Will electronic books surpass print books? Read our white paper,
> >> >>> >Surpassing Gutenberg, at http://www.afb.org/ebook.asp
> >> >>> >
> >> >>> >Download a free sample Digital Talking Book edition of Martin Luther
> >> >>> >King Jr's inspiring "I Have A Dream" speech at
> >> >>> >http://www.afb.org/mlkweb.asp
> >> >>> >
> >> >>> >Learn how to make accessible software at
> >> >>> >http://www.afb.org/accessapp.asp
> >> >>> >
> >> >>> >
> >> >>> >
> >> >>> >_______________________________________________
> >> >>> >Blinux-list mailing list
> >> >>> >Blinux-list@redhat.com
> >> >>> >https://listman.redhat.com/mailman/listinfo/blinux-list
> >> >>> >
> >> >>> >
> >> >>>
> >> >>>
> >> >>>
> >> >>> _______________________________________________
> >> >>> Blinux-list mailing list
> >> >>> Blinux-list@redhat.com
> >> >>> https://listman.redhat.com/mailman/listinfo/blinux-list
> >> >>>
> >> >>
> >> >>--
> >> >>
> >> >>				Janina Sajka, Director
> >> >>				Technology Research and Development
> >> >>				Governmental Relations Group
> >> >>				American Foundation for the Blind (AFB)
> >> >>
> >> >>Email: janina@afb.net		Phone: (202) 408-8175
> >> >>
> >> >>Chair, Accessibility SIG
> >> >>Open Electronic Book Forum (OEBF)
> >> >>http://www.openebook.org
> >> >>
> >> >>Will electronic books surpass print books? Read our white paper,
> >> >>Surpassing Gutenberg, at http://www.afb.org/ebook.asp
> >> >>
> >> >>Download a free sample Digital Talking Book edition of Martin Luther
> >> >>King Jr's inspiring "I Have A Dream" speech at
> >> >>http://www.afb.org/mlkweb.asp
> >> >>
> >> >>Learn how to make accessible software at
> >> >>http://www.afb.org/accessapp.asp
> >> >>
> >> >>
> >> >>
> >> >>_______________________________________________
> >> >>Blinux-list mailing list
> >> >>Blinux-list@redhat.com
> >> >>https://listman.redhat.com/mailman/listinfo/blinux-list
> >> >>
> >> >>
> >> >>
> >> >>_______________________________________________
> >> >>Blinux-list mailing list
> >> >>Blinux-list@redhat.com
> >> >>https://listman.redhat.com/mailman/listinfo/blinux-list
> >> >>
> >> >>
> >> >
> >> >
> >> >
> >> >_______________________________________________
> >> >Blinux-list mailing list
> >> >Blinux-list@redhat.com
> >> >https://listman.redhat.com/mailman/listinfo/blinux-list
> >> >
> >> >
> >> >
> >> >_______________________________________________
> >> >Blinux-list mailing list
> >> >Blinux-list@redhat.com
> >> >https://listman.redhat.com/mailman/listinfo/blinux-list
> >> >
> >> >
> >>
> >>
> >>
> >> _______________________________________________
> >> Blinux-list mailing list
> >> Blinux-list@redhat.com
> >> https://listman.redhat.com/mailman/listinfo/blinux-list
> >>
> >>
> >>
> >> _______________________________________________
> >> Blinux-list mailing list
> >> Blinux-list@redhat.com
> >> https://listman.redhat.com/mailman/listinfo/blinux-list
> >>
> >
> >
> >
> >_______________________________________________
> >Blinux-list mailing list
> >Blinux-list@redhat.com
> >https://listman.redhat.com/mailman/listinfo/blinux-list
> >
> >
>
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> Blinux-list mailing list
> Blinux-list@redhat.com
> https://listman.redhat.com/mailman/listinfo/blinux-list
>

Re: the Papenmeir device that was supposed to be coming out

[Brent Harding]

Probably not bigger than the average laptop. What's the expected battery
life on it? Laptops are inefficient on power, thy last at max three hours,
which is never enough for taking notes for classes and the like, and the
dectalk express puts one in an even tougher situation, that being the
internal battery. Is there yet made an adapter that I can plug the wall
wart in to that supplies AC power from batteries that I can replace when
they go dead? MS Sapi kind of sucks, and so does the sound on my laptop.
At 06:35 PM 11/15/01 -0500, you wrote:
>Hi, Luke:
>
>Your analysis is right, in my view. I should say that I am running around 
>with a Thinkpad T20 and it does the job very very well for me. I would, 
>frankly, like something lighter. By the time I load up everything I need 
>to take on the road to support my computer habits, that old briefcase gets 
>quite heavy. Sometimes, I wish I had picked the Thinkpad X20, though the 
>total weight would not have been that different with all of the 
>peripherals.
>
>The attraction of the Papenmeier is the thing missing in a Thinkpad--the 
>braille. Also, it is attractive to think that I could show up in public 
>and do all the things that one does on a computer on a device obviously 
>aimed at blind users. There's a powerful message to that.
>
>The price is part of the argument against this. But another argument 
>against is the form factor. The Papenmeier is big, far too big, imho, at 
>8.5 by 11 inches by whatever thickness.
>
> On Thu, 15 Nov 2001, Luke Davis wrote:
>
>> I would still like to know what one of these cost.  *Without* a corporate
>> discount, an IBM Thinkpad A20E, with CD and Zip Drive, is less than
>> $1,400.00.  That *is* a full featured laptop, and unless a particularly
>> assistive device is going to be at least a third, and probably more, less
>> expensive than the Thinkpad, I, as someone who wants full functionality,
>> am going to buy the Thinkpad.
>> 
>> 
>> On Thu, 15 Nov 2001, Janina Sajka wrote:
>> 
>> > Tommy:
>> >
>> > I need to respond to this last note from you. I appreciate what you
say in
>> > this note. While I do not agree with all of what you say, I do agree that
>> > that the Papenmeier is probably far and away the best choice among
>> > available products of its kind today. As you said in another note on this
>> > list the other day, it comes close to a laptop computer. In fact, were I
>> > to get one (and I might), I would try to use it just that way.
>> >
>> > My comments, while strongly stated, are certainly not directed against
you
>> > personally. I sincerely hope you don't take them that way. The failure of
>> > the assistive technology industry to bring the price of such units down
>> > is, in my view, no longer acceptable. And, to my understanding, it is the
>> > product that takes advantage of free software which bears a greater
>> > responsibility to its customers in this regard. But, the responsibility
>> > can also be shared out among various not for profit agencies and
>> > governmental entities. Fortunately, price is also negotiable and subject
>> > to change. Market pressure is just one way it can change.
>> >
>> > In short, the part I don't agree with is is where you say that you and I
>> > have no control over price. I intend to push down on the price by several
>> > means, which include those I have employed here in the past few
>> > days--where I've challenged you, as the representative of the
>> > manufacturer, to justify it. You, as the manufacturer's representative on
>> > this list, might take what is said here back to headquarters. I would
>> > regard that as your duty to us, actually.
>> >
>> >  On Tue, 13
>> > Nov 2001, Tommy Craig wrote:
>> >
>> > > One last post. I am not part of the development team so I'm not really
>> > > qualified to answer exactly what went into the development. You see
although
>> > > I am fairly technical and I have been working in this field for a
number of
>> > > years I couldn't build one. I think the best way for you to get your
>> > > questions answered is to actually spend the time and look at a unit.
>> > >
>> > >     I didn't get into this discussion to start a feud. I don't
control the
>> > > pricing and neither do you. I tried to answer a question concerning the
>> > > shipping time for the unit. I am also happy to answer any productive
>> > > questions that people might have. I am not willing to spend my time
arguing
>> > > about something that accomplishes absolutely nothing. All I would
ask is
>> > > that if you are interested in a Notetaker with a Braille display
that you
>> > > give the ELBA a look. Compare it to the other devices that are
available,
>> > > including comparing prices and pick the one that is right for you.
That's
>> > > the real world. I feel very strongly that if you do this you'll see
that the
>> > > ELBA is a good product at a competitive price.
>> > > Tommy
>> > >
>> > >
>> > >
>> > >
>> > > _______________________________________________
>> > > Blinux-list mailing list
>> > > Blinux-list@redhat.com
>> > > https://listman.redhat.com/mailman/listinfo/blinux-list
>> > >
>> >
>> >
>> 
>> 
>> 
>> _______________________________________________
>> Blinux-list mailing list
>> Blinux-list@redhat.com
>> https://listman.redhat.com/mailman/listinfo/blinux-list
>> 
>
>-- 
>	
>				Janina Sajka, Director
>				Technology Research and Development
>				Governmental Relations Group
>				American Foundation for the Blind (AFB)
>
>Email: janina@afb.net		Phone: (202) 408-8175
>
>Chair, Accessibility SIG
>Open Electronic Book Forum (OEBF)
>http://www.openebook.org
>
>Will electronic books surpass print books? Read our white paper,
>Surpassing Gutenberg, at http://www.afb.org/ebook.asp
>
>Download a free sample Digital Talking Book edition of Martin Luther
>King Jr's inspiring "I Have A Dream" speech at
>http://www.afb.org/mlkweb.asp
>
>Learn how to make accessible software at
>http://www.afb.org/accessapp.asp
>
>
>
>_______________________________________________
>Blinux-list mailing list
>Blinux-list@redhat.com
>https://listman.redhat.com/mailman/listinfo/blinux-list
>
>

RE: the Papenmeir device that was supposed to be coming out

[Joel Zimba]

why not learn to write? *smirk*

-----Original Message-----
From: blinux-list-admin@redhat.com
[mailto:blinux-list-admin@redhat.com]On Behalf Of Brent Harding
Sent: Thursday, November 15, 2001 11:21 PM
To: blinux-list@redhat.com
Subject: RE: the Papenmeir device that was supposed to be coming out


One problem, handwriting recognition would be useless to me. Does the ipaq
have an accessible form of input, keyboard, etc?
At 05:01 PM 11/15/01 -0500, you wrote:
>Same price?  An IPAQ is going to be around six hundred bucks, maybe seven,
>but you don't need the color resolution.  The Elva is what?
>
>
>On Thu, 15 Nov 2001, Joel Zimba wrote:
>
>> have a read of handhelds.org  it pretty well describes the process for
the
>> ipaq 3600...
>>
>> I've seen descriptions for other devices.  it's mostly the same...
>>
>> presumably there are the utilities for backing up wince and the linux
loader
>> you would install...
>> I would not put it on the list of practical options at the moment, but
>> certainly possible.
>>
>> and the incentive to do it is pretty much nill now that a device exists
>> which is roughly the same price and has the work already done for you.
>>
>> Linux on devices other then pcs will bbe much more common in the coming
>> months.
>> now that tts is coming to be a more mainstream feature, we can expect the
>> level of hacking required to have reasonable access to drop dramatically.
>>
>> time shall tell,
>>
>> J
>>
>> -----Original Message-----
>> From: blinux-list-admin@redhat.com
>> [mailto:blinux-list-admin@redhat.com]On Behalf Of Brent Harding
>> Sent: Thursday, November 15, 2001 4:07 PM
>> To: blinux-list@redhat.com
>> Subject: RE: the Papenmeir device that was supposed to be coming out
>>
>>
>> I suppose, how would one even do this?
>> At 02:41 PM 11/15/01 -0500, you wrote:
>> >or you could save yourself the work and buy the elba...
>> >
>> >now you see the point?
>> >
>> >-----Original Message-----
>> >From: blinux-list-admin@redhat.com
>> >[mailto:blinux-list-admin@redhat.com]On Behalf Of Brent Harding
>> >Sent: Thursday, November 15, 2001 2:50 PM
>> >To: blinux-list@redhat.com
>> >Subject: RE: the Papenmeir device that was supposed to be coming out
>> >
>> >
>> >Wow, it'll be interesting to see how that goes, just getting it
installed
>> >might be an issue, loadlin from win CE? If the sound worked, it'd be
like
>> >having a mini computer, mp3, networking, anything we want now, easily
>> >implemented with linux on a microdrive.
>> >At 11:31 AM 11/15/01 -0500, you wrote:
>> >>so if anyone is willing to sacrifice a brlnote for the cause, I'll
gladly
>> >>spearhead the effort to unixize one of them!!
>> >>now if only we can get the specs for the hardware... like the braill
>> >>display.
>> >>anyone have connections at pulsedaata?
>> >>J
>> >>
>> >>-----Original Message-----
>> >>From: blinux-list-admin@redhat.com
>> >>[mailto:blinux-list-admin@redhat.com]On Behalf Of Janina Sajka
>> >>Sent: Thursday, November 15, 2001 11:33 AM
>> >>To: blinux-list@redhat.com
>> >>Subject: Re: the Papenmeir device that was supposed to be coming out
>> >>
>> >>
>> >>As it happens, the Braille Note is built around the MIPS chip which is
>> >>supported by linux, so the answer is "yes," that would be possible.
>> >>
>> >>As a matter of fact, this is a more timely question than may first meet
>> >>the ... ahem ... ear? <grin>
>> >>
>> >>The Braille Note runs Win CE, but Microsoft will no longer support MIPS
>> >>clients with it's Win CE OS. Therefore, Pulse Data, the Braille Note's
>> >>manufacturer finds itself dumped like a spurned lover. They have no
>> >>tomorrow to look forward to with Microsoft. I have been suggesting they
>> >>consider going with linux, now that their future is so up in the air.
>> >>
>> >> On
>> >>Wed, 14 Nov 2001, Brent Harding wrote:
>> >>
>> >>> Wow, the linux is probably in some kind of rom that's unchangable so
if
>> >>you
>> >>> trash it you have something to come back to. Wonder if you could get
>> >linux
>> >>> on a braille note?
>> >>> At 01:55 PM 11/14/01 -0500, you wrote:
>> >>> >Of course it would. If it is supported in linux, it'll run wherever
you
>> >>> >have linux--with the appropriate support modules installed, of
course.
>> >We
>> >>> >don't know, for example, how complete the Papenmeier linux
installation
>> >>> >is. For example, I would rather doubt they've installed gnome and
kde,
>> >>but
>> >>> >I've been wrong before.
>> >>> > On Wed, 14 Nov 2001, Brent Harding wrote:
>> >>> >
>> >>> >> Wow, would that likely work in the system's linux support? My
laptop
>> >>isn't
>> >>> >> working real good for audio, as the dectalk feeds an overtone in
to
>> >the
>> >>> >> system whenever it's port is accessed, even when pulling the cable
>> out
>> >>and
>> >>> >> all. The port must be giving the noise.
>> >>> >> At 09:52 AM 11/14/01 -0500, you wrote:
>> >>> >> >I don't mind the lack of line in. For serious audio work you'd
want
>> >to
>> >>> use
>> >>> >> >the pcm slot with a device like the RME Hammerfalls DSP.
>> >>> >> >
>> >>> >> >
>> >>> >> >On Tue, 13 Nov 2001, Tommy Craig wrote:
>> >>> >> >
>> >>> >> >> Yes you can use your own software. As for line in and out, It
>> >>definately
>> >>> >> has
>> >>> >> >> line out. I don't believe that it has line in. It does have a
>> built
>> >>in
>> >>> >> >> microphone.
>> >>> >> >> Tommy
>> >>> >> >>
>> >>> >> >>
>> >>> >> >>
>> >>> >> >>
>> >>> >> >> _______________________________________________
>> >>> >> >> Blinux-list mailing list
>> >>> >> >> Blinux-list@redhat.com
>> >>> >> >> https://listman.redhat.com/mailman/listinfo/blinux-list
>> >>> >> >>
>> >>> >> >
>> >>> >> >--
>> >>> >> >
>> >>> >> >				Janina Sajka, Director
>> >>> >> >				Technology Research and Development
>> >>> >> >				Governmental Relations Group
>> >>> >> >				American Foundation for the Blind (AFB)
>> >>> >> >
>> >>> >> >Email: janina@afb.net		Phone: (202) 408-8175
>> >>> >> >
>> >>> >> >Chair, Accessibility SIG
>> >>> >> >Open Electronic Book Forum (OEBF)
>> >>> >> >http://www.openebook.org
>> >>> >> >
>> >>> >> >Will electronic books surpass print books? Read our white paper,
>> >>> >> >Surpassing Gutenberg, at http://www.afb.org/ebook.asp
>> >>> >> >
>> >>> >> >Download a free sample Digital Talking Book edition of Martin
Luther
>> >>> >> >King Jr's inspiring "I Have A Dream" speech at
>> >>> >> >http://www.afb.org/mlkweb.asp
>> >>> >> >
>> >>> >> >Learn how to make accessible software at
>> >>> >> >http://www.afb.org/accessapp.asp
>> >>> >> >
>> >>> >> >
>> >>> >> >
>> >>> >> >_______________________________________________
>> >>> >> >Blinux-list mailing list
>> >>> >> >Blinux-list@redhat.com
>> >>> >> >https://listman.redhat.com/mailman/listinfo/blinux-list
>> >>> >> >
>> >>> >> >
>> >>> >>
>> >>> >>
>> >>> >>
>> >>> >> _______________________________________________
>> >>> >> Blinux-list mailing list
>> >>> >> Blinux-list@redhat.com
>> >>> >> https://listman.redhat.com/mailman/listinfo/blinux-list
>> >>> >>
>> >>> >
>> >>> >--
>> >>> >
>> >>> >				Janina Sajka, Director
>> >>> >				Technology Research and Development
>> >>> >				Governmental Relations Group
>> >>> >				American Foundation for the Blind (AFB)
>> >>> >
>> >>> >Email: janina@afb.net		Phone: (202) 408-8175
>> >>> >
>> >>> >Chair, Accessibility SIG
>> >>> >Open Electronic Book Forum (OEBF)
>> >>> >http://www.openebook.org
>> >>> >
>> >>> >Will electronic books surpass print books? Read our white paper,
>> >>> >Surpassing Gutenberg, at http://www.afb.org/ebook.asp
>> >>> >
>> >>> >Download a free sample Digital Talking Book edition of Martin Luther
>> >>> >King Jr's inspiring "I Have A Dream" speech at
>> >>> >http://www.afb.org/mlkweb.asp
>> >>> >
>> >>> >Learn how to make accessible software at
>> >>> >http://www.afb.org/accessapp.asp
>> >>> >
>> >>> >
>> >>> >
>> >>> >_______________________________________________
>> >>> >Blinux-list mailing list
>> >>> >Blinux-list@redhat.com
>> >>> >https://listman.redhat.com/mailman/listinfo/blinux-list
>> >>> >
>> >>> >
>> >>>
>> >>>
>> >>>
>> >>> _______________________________________________
>> >>> Blinux-list mailing list
>> >>> Blinux-list@redhat.com
>> >>> https://listman.redhat.com/mailman/listinfo/blinux-list
>> >>>
>> >>
>> >>--
>> >>
>> >>				Janina Sajka, Director
>> >>				Technology Research and Development
>> >>				Governmental Relations Group
>> >>				American Foundation for the Blind (AFB)
>> >>
>> >>Email: janina@afb.net		Phone: (202) 408-8175
>> >>
>> >>Chair, Accessibility SIG
>> >>Open Electronic Book Forum (OEBF)
>> >>http://www.openebook.org
>> >>
>> >>Will electronic books surpass print books? Read our white paper,
>> >>Surpassing Gutenberg, at http://www.afb.org/ebook.asp
>> >>
>> >>Download a free sample Digital Talking Book edition of Martin Luther
>> >>King Jr's inspiring "I Have A Dream" speech at
>> >>http://www.afb.org/mlkweb.asp
>> >>
>> >>Learn how to make accessible software at
>> >>http://www.afb.org/accessapp.asp
>> >>
>> >>
>> >>
>> >>_______________________________________________
>> >>Blinux-list mailing list
>> >>Blinux-list@redhat.com
>> >>https://listman.redhat.com/mailman/listinfo/blinux-list
>> >>
>> >>
>> >>
>> >>_______________________________________________
>> >>Blinux-list mailing list
>> >>Blinux-list@redhat.com
>> >>https://listman.redhat.com/mailman/listinfo/blinux-list
>> >>
>> >>
>> >
>> >
>> >
>> >_______________________________________________
>> >Blinux-list mailing list
>> >Blinux-list@redhat.com
>> >https://listman.redhat.com/mailman/listinfo/blinux-list
>> >
>> >
>> >
>> >_______________________________________________
>> >Blinux-list mailing list
>> >Blinux-list@redhat.com
>> >https://listman.redhat.com/mailman/listinfo/blinux-list
>> >
>> >
>>
>>
>>
>> _______________________________________________
>> Blinux-list mailing list
>> Blinux-list@redhat.com
>> https://listman.redhat.com/mailman/listinfo/blinux-list
>>
>>
>>
>> _______________________________________________
>> Blinux-list mailing list
>> Blinux-list@redhat.com
>> https://listman.redhat.com/mailman/listinfo/blinux-list
>>
>
>
>
>_______________________________________________
>Blinux-list mailing list
>Blinux-list@redhat.com
>https://listman.redhat.com/mailman/listinfo/blinux-list
>
>



_______________________________________________
Blinux-list mailing list
Blinux-list@redhat.com
https://listman.redhat.com/mailman/listinfo/blinux-list

RE: the Papenmeir device that was supposed to be coming out

[Brent Harding]

Don't know, too hard just for this type of thing. One would probably have
to be pretty good for the devices to recognize anything usefull anyways,
from what I hear of them.
At 08:30 AM 11/16/01 -0500, you wrote:
>why not learn to write? *smirk*
>
>-----Original Message-----
>From: blinux-list-admin@redhat.com
>[mailto:blinux-list-admin@redhat.com]On Behalf Of Brent Harding
>Sent: Thursday, November 15, 2001 11:21 PM
>To: blinux-list@redhat.com
>Subject: RE: the Papenmeir device that was supposed to be coming out
>
>
>One problem, handwriting recognition would be useless to me. Does the ipaq
>have an accessible form of input, keyboard, etc?
>At 05:01 PM 11/15/01 -0500, you wrote:
>>Same price?  An IPAQ is going to be around six hundred bucks, maybe seven,
>>but you don't need the color resolution.  The Elva is what?
>>
>>
>>On Thu, 15 Nov 2001, Joel Zimba wrote:
>>
>>> have a read of handhelds.org  it pretty well describes the process for
>the
>>> ipaq 3600...
>>>
>>> I've seen descriptions for other devices.  it's mostly the same...
>>>
>>> presumably there are the utilities for backing up wince and the linux
>loader
>>> you would install...
>>> I would not put it on the list of practical options at the moment, but
>>> certainly possible.
>>>
>>> and the incentive to do it is pretty much nill now that a device exists
>>> which is roughly the same price and has the work already done for you.
>>>
>>> Linux on devices other then pcs will bbe much more common in the coming
>>> months.
>>> now that tts is coming to be a more mainstream feature, we can expect the
>>> level of hacking required to have reasonable access to drop dramatically.
>>>
>>> time shall tell,
>>>
>>> J
>>>
>>> -----Original Message-----
>>> From: blinux-list-admin@redhat.com
>>> [mailto:blinux-list-admin@redhat.com]On Behalf Of Brent Harding
>>> Sent: Thursday, November 15, 2001 4:07 PM
>>> To: blinux-list@redhat.com
>>> Subject: RE: the Papenmeir device that was supposed to be coming out
>>>
>>>
>>> I suppose, how would one even do this?
>>> At 02:41 PM 11/15/01 -0500, you wrote:
>>> >or you could save yourself the work and buy the elba...
>>> >
>>> >now you see the point?
>>> >
>>> >-----Original Message-----
>>> >From: blinux-list-admin@redhat.com
>>> >[mailto:blinux-list-admin@redhat.com]On Behalf Of Brent Harding
>>> >Sent: Thursday, November 15, 2001 2:50 PM
>>> >To: blinux-list@redhat.com
>>> >Subject: RE: the Papenmeir device that was supposed to be coming out
>>> >
>>> >
>>> >Wow, it'll be interesting to see how that goes, just getting it
>installed
>>> >might be an issue, loadlin from win CE? If the sound worked, it'd be
>like
>>> >having a mini computer, mp3, networking, anything we want now, easily
>>> >implemented with linux on a microdrive.
>>> >At 11:31 AM 11/15/01 -0500, you wrote:
>>> >>so if anyone is willing to sacrifice a brlnote for the cause, I'll
>gladly
>>> >>spearhead the effort to unixize one of them!!
>>> >>now if only we can get the specs for the hardware... like the braill
>>> >>display.
>>> >>anyone have connections at pulsedaata?
>>> >>J
>>> >>
>>> >>-----Original Message-----
>>> >>From: blinux-list-admin@redhat.com
>>> >>[mailto:blinux-list-admin@redhat.com]On Behalf Of Janina Sajka
>>> >>Sent: Thursday, November 15, 2001 11:33 AM
>>> >>To: blinux-list@redhat.com
>>> >>Subject: Re: the Papenmeir device that was supposed to be coming out
>>> >>
>>> >>
>>> >>As it happens, the Braille Note is built around the MIPS chip which is
>>> >>supported by linux, so the answer is "yes," that would be possible.
>>> >>
>>> >>As a matter of fact, this is a more timely question than may first meet
>>> >>the ... ahem ... ear? <grin>
>>> >>
>>> >>The Braille Note runs Win CE, but Microsoft will no longer support MIPS
>>> >>clients with it's Win CE OS. Therefore, Pulse Data, the Braille Note's
>>> >>manufacturer finds itself dumped like a spurned lover. They have no
>>> >>tomorrow to look forward to with Microsoft. I have been suggesting they
>>> >>consider going with linux, now that their future is so up in the air.
>>> >>
>>> >> On
>>> >>Wed, 14 Nov 2001, Brent Harding wrote:
>>> >>
>>> >>> Wow, the linux is probably in some kind of rom that's unchangable so
>if
>>> >>you
>>> >>> trash it you have something to come back to. Wonder if you could get
>>> >linux
>>> >>> on a braille note?
>>> >>> At 01:55 PM 11/14/01 -0500, you wrote:
>>> >>> >Of course it would. If it is supported in linux, it'll run wherever
>you
>>> >>> >have linux--with the appropriate support modules installed, of
>course.
>>> >We
>>> >>> >don't know, for example, how complete the Papenmeier linux
>installation
>>> >>> >is. For example, I would rather doubt they've installed gnome and
>kde,
>>> >>but
>>> >>> >I've been wrong before.
>>> >>> > On Wed, 14 Nov 2001, Brent Harding wrote:
>>> >>> >
>>> >>> >> Wow, would that likely work in the system's linux support? My
>laptop
>>> >>isn't
>>> >>> >> working real good for audio, as the dectalk feeds an overtone in
>to
>>> >the
>>> >>> >> system whenever it's port is accessed, even when pulling the cable
>>> out
>>> >>and
>>> >>> >> all. The port must be giving the noise.
>>> >>> >> At 09:52 AM 11/14/01 -0500, you wrote:
>>> >>> >> >I don't mind the lack of line in. For serious audio work you'd
>want
>>> >to
>>> >>> use
>>> >>> >> >the pcm slot with a device like the RME Hammerfalls DSP.
>>> >>> >> >
>>> >>> >> >
>>> >>> >> >On Tue, 13 Nov 2001, Tommy Craig wrote:
>>> >>> >> >
>>> >>> >> >> Yes you can use your own software. As for line in and out, It
>>> >>definately
>>> >>> >> has
>>> >>> >> >> line out. I don't believe that it has line in. It does have a
>>> built
>>> >>in
>>> >>> >> >> microphone.
>>> >>> >> >> Tommy
>>> >>> >> >>
>>> >>> >> >>
>>> >>> >> >>
>>> >>> >> >>
>>> >>> >> >> _______________________________________________
>>> >>> >> >> Blinux-list mailing list
>>> >>> >> >> Blinux-list@redhat.com
>>> >>> >> >> https://listman.redhat.com/mailman/listinfo/blinux-list
>>> >>> >> >>
>>> >>> >> >
>>> >>> >> >--
>>> >>> >> >
>>> >>> >> >				Janina Sajka, Director
>>> >>> >> >				Technology Research and Development
>>> >>> >> >				Governmental Relations Group
>>> >>> >> >				American Foundation for the Blind (AFB)
>>> >>> >> >
>>> >>> >> >Email: janina@afb.net		Phone: (202) 408-8175
>>> >>> >> >
>>> >>> >> >Chair, Accessibility SIG
>>> >>> >> >Open Electronic Book Forum (OEBF)
>>> >>> >> >http://www.openebook.org
>>> >>> >> >
>>> >>> >> >Will electronic books surpass print books? Read our white paper,
>>> >>> >> >Surpassing Gutenberg, at http://www.afb.org/ebook.asp
>>> >>> >> >
>>> >>> >> >Download a free sample Digital Talking Book edition of Martin
>Luther
>>> >>> >> >King Jr's inspiring "I Have A Dream" speech at
>>> >>> >> >http://www.afb.org/mlkweb.asp
>>> >>> >> >
>>> >>> >> >Learn how to make accessible software at
>>> >>> >> >http://www.afb.org/accessapp.asp
>>> >>> >> >
>>> >>> >> >
>>> >>> >> >
>>> >>> >> >_______________________________________________
>>> >>> >> >Blinux-list mailing list
>>> >>> >> >Blinux-list@redhat.com
>>> >>> >> >https://listman.redhat.com/mailman/listinfo/blinux-list
>>> >>> >> >
>>> >>> >> >
>>> >>> >>
>>> >>> >>
>>> >>> >>
>>> >>> >> _______________________________________________
>>> >>> >> Blinux-list mailing list
>>> >>> >> Blinux-list@redhat.com
>>> >>> >> https://listman.redhat.com/mailman/listinfo/blinux-list
>>> >>> >>
>>> >>> >
>>> >>> >--
>>> >>> >
>>> >>> >				Janina Sajka, Director
>>> >>> >				Technology Research and Development
>>> >>> >				Governmental Relations Group
>>> >>> >				American Foundation for the Blind (AFB)
>>> >>> >
>>> >>> >Email: janina@afb.net		Phone: (202) 408-8175
>>> >>> >
>>> >>> >Chair, Accessibility SIG
>>> >>> >Open Electronic Book Forum (OEBF)
>>> >>> >http://www.openebook.org
>>> >>> >
>>> >>> >Will electronic books surpass print books? Read our white paper,
>>> >>> >Surpassing Gutenberg, at http://www.afb.org/ebook.asp
>>> >>> >
>>> >>> >Download a free sample Digital Talking Book edition of Martin Luther
>>> >>> >King Jr's inspiring "I Have A Dream" speech at
>>> >>> >http://www.afb.org/mlkweb.asp
>>> >>> >
>>> >>> >Learn how to make accessible software at
>>> >>> >http://www.afb.org/accessapp.asp
>>> >>> >
>>> >>> >
>>> >>> >
>>> >>> >_______________________________________________
>>> >>> >Blinux-list mailing list
>>> >>> >Blinux-list@redhat.com
>>> >>> >https://listman.redhat.com/mailman/listinfo/blinux-list
>>> >>> >
>>> >>> >
>>> >>>
>>> >>>
>>> >>>
>>> >>> _______________________________________________
>>> >>> Blinux-list mailing list
>>> >>> Blinux-list@redhat.com
>>> >>> https://listman.redhat.com/mailman/listinfo/blinux-list
>>> >>>
>>> >>
>>> >>--
>>> >>
>>> >>				Janina Sajka, Director
>>> >>				Technology Research and Development
>>> >>				Governmental Relations Group
>>> >>				American Foundation for the Blind (AFB)
>>> >>
>>> >>Email: janina@afb.net		Phone: (202) 408-8175
>>> >>
>>> >>Chair, Accessibility SIG
>>> >>Open Electronic Book Forum (OEBF)
>>> >>http://www.openebook.org
>>> >>
>>> >>Will electronic books surpass print books? Read our white paper,
>>> >>Surpassing Gutenberg, at http://www.afb.org/ebook.asp
>>> >>
>>> >>Download a free sample Digital Talking Book edition of Martin Luther
>>> >>King Jr's inspiring "I Have A Dream" speech at
>>> >>http://www.afb.org/mlkweb.asp
>>> >>
>>> >>Learn how to make accessible software at
>>> >>http://www.afb.org/accessapp.asp
>>> >>
>>> >>
>>> >>
>>> >>_______________________________________________
>>> >>Blinux-list mailing list
>>> >>Blinux-list@redhat.com
>>> >>https://listman.redhat.com/mailman/listinfo/blinux-list
>>> >>
>>> >>
>>> >>
>>> >>_______________________________________________
>>> >>Blinux-list mailing list
>>> >>Blinux-list@redhat.com
>>> >>https://listman.redhat.com/mailman/listinfo/blinux-list
>>> >>
>>> >>
>>> >
>>> >
>>> >
>>> >_______________________________________________
>>> >Blinux-list mailing list
>>> >Blinux-list@redhat.com
>>> >https://listman.redhat.com/mailman/listinfo/blinux-list
>>> >
>>> >
>>> >
>>> >_______________________________________________
>>> >Blinux-list mailing list
>>> >Blinux-list@redhat.com
>>> >https://listman.redhat.com/mailman/listinfo/blinux-list
>>> >
>>> >
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> _______________________________________________
>>> Blinux-list mailing list
>>> Blinux-list@redhat.com
>>> https://listman.redhat.com/mailman/listinfo/blinux-list
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> _______________________________________________
>>> Blinux-list mailing list
>>> Blinux-list@redhat.com
>>> https://listman.redhat.com/mailman/listinfo/blinux-list
>>>
>>
>>
>>
>>_______________________________________________
>>Blinux-list mailing list
>>Blinux-list@redhat.com
>>https://listman.redhat.com/mailman/listinfo/blinux-list
>>
>>
>
>
>
>_______________________________________________
>Blinux-list mailing list
>Blinux-list@redhat.com
>https://listman.redhat.com/mailman/listinfo/blinux-list
>
>
>
>_______________________________________________
>Blinux-list mailing list
>Blinux-list@redhat.com
>https://listman.redhat.com/mailman/listinfo/blinux-list
>
>