I'm finally getting a machine

I'm finally getting a machine

[Richard Caloggero]

     Well, I've been lurking here for a while, but without a working
     linux to play with, have had nothing to contribute (or ask).  So
here come the questions, and hopefully, answers to others' questions
will follow.

     1) I want to install linux on a 486. I wanna run dos as well.
Which boot program is best for non-visual use.  I've heard of LILO.
Other names would be useful. Any preference?  Also, aside from the "can
I install it without sighted asistance" question, is there a preference
as to which version of linux works best for the blind?  We're thinking
of redhat.  I'll have sighted assistance, for the installation.

     2) How should I partition the drive.  I think its a 1 gig. I
assume I need to use fat so dos will work.  How big should the
partitions be? Dos needs its own piece right?  Linux needs several
(root user, tmp) right? How big should they be?

     3) Has anyone had experience with mbrola on a 486?  I may get a
hold of an audapter synthesizer, but not sure.  How does screader work?
I assume, from the recent discussions, that it is just a modification
on screen which sends text to another serial port (or speech card or
somftware synthesizer) and thus has no way to review the screen. If you
miss something, that's too bad -- redraw the whole screen and listen
carefully!

     4) What is the difference between mbrola and festival?  Will
emacspeak work with both?

     5) Does anyone know of a midi sequencing package (even a basic
     one) which runs under linux without x-windows?


     Well, enough questions for now.  Thanx in advance for any
assistance you-all can provide!

					Rich (rjc@mit.edu)

Richard Caloggero
Consultant; Access Tech. for Info. and Computing (ATIC)
Massachusetts Institute of Technology, Building 11-103
77 Mass. Ave.
Cambridge, MA 02139

Re: I'm finally getting a machine

[Jude Dashiell]

Perhaps I can be of some help with one answer.
Your boot program is going to have to communicate with you in some way.
For that reason I suggest you check out system commander since it is quite
audible
in terms of the beeps it emits for different conditions.
When inside system commander I've been told by a couple sighted
people that use it that the program has a default boot area but moving the
pointer
down and up with the arrow keys changes that and hitting the
return key sends you on your way.



Jude <dashiell@clark.net>

Re: I'm finally getting a machine

[James R. Van Zandt]

Richard Caloggero <rjc@MIT.EDU> writes:
>     1) I want to install linux on a 486. I wanna run dos as well.
>Which boot program is best for non-visual use.  I've heard of LILO.

LILO works fine, but has these limitations:

1. It must get the kernel from a partition entirely within the first
1024MB of the disk.

2. If you have hardware which requires initialization by a DOS
program, you won't be able to use it under Linux.  I have a modem like
this.

3. LILO writes into the boot sector of the disk.  Mistakes here leave
you with a disk that will not boot any operating system - even DOS.

I recommend you use loadlin, which is a DOS program that boots Linux.
It requires that you write a kernel into a DOS file, and include the
root filesystem on the loadlin command line.

Another way to boot is with a boot floppy.  This is easiest to set up
(the installation script will let you make a boot floppy).  However,
the floppy is another thing to lose.

>     2) How should I partition the drive.  I think its a 1 gig. I
>assume I need to use fat so dos will work.  How big should the
>partitions be? Dos needs its own piece right?  Linux needs several
>(root user, tmp) right? How big should they be?

DOS and Linux each need their own partitions for system files.  Linux
can easily access the DOS partitions, but not the other way around.
As for partition sizes, I have a rather long draft HOWTO-Partition
which I will send you (and anyone else who asks for it) separately.

                             - Jim Van Zandt

I'm finally getting a machine

[Bart Bunting]

Richard Caloggero writes:
 >      Well, I've been lurking here for a while, but without a working
 >      linux to play with, have had nothing to contribute (or ask).  So
 > here come the questions, and hopefully, answers to others' questions
 > will follow.
 > 
 >      3) Has anyone had experience with mbrola on a 486?
no, but i use a pentium 100, using my partially completed mbrola-server for emacspeak and it is slow, not so slow as to be unusable but no where as fast as a hardware synth.
at a guess i think it would be too slow to really use on a 486, but you could give it a go. 
 > 
 >      4) What is the difference between mbrola and festival?  Will
 > emacspeak work with both?
emacspeak almost works with mbrola :) but not totally.

Bart

Re: I'm finally getting a machine

[Luke Davis]

If you only have 2 operating systems: just configure LILO to boot 2
operating systems, tell it where they are, give it the labels, and which
os to boot first, and how long to wait before it is defaulted to, and
you're set.
I have my LILO setup to boot dos first, or if I type "dos", or it will go
to linux if I type "linux".
If I don't type anything with in 5 seconds: it will go to dos.
I think there's also a way to redirect the output to a port/device other
than the console; but I'm not sure on that.

In any case: a boot loader does not really need to be accessable: does it?
Unless you have 20 different OSes: as long as you can configure it with
speach or something along those lines: the only thing that is required to
boot a given os is that you can type and count.

Re: I'm finally getting a machine

[Luke Davis]

Actually: you can install lilo on the superblock of your linux root
partition, and you *do*not* have to use the bootsector - I don't, and it
works fine.
(unless I'v forgotten something major)

The other limitations still exist, however.

I'v never been able to get loadlin to work, and have had trouble with it
the one time it almost did.:)

Re: I'm finally getting a machine

[G John Lapeyre]

	I found that on the first couple of installs, just making one root
partition and a swap partition was enough work, and useful enough.  I
guess some people might need more partitions, particularly if you have
many users and need to back up often, etc.

	John

G John Lapeyre <lapeyre@physics.arizona.edu>
Tucson,AZ     http://www.physics.arizona.edu/~lapeyre

Re: I'm finally getting a machine

[L. C. Robinson]

On Mon, 26 Jan 1998, Richard Caloggero wrote:

>      1) I want to install linux on a 486. I wanna run dos
>      as well.  Which boot program is best for non-visual
>      use.  I've heard of LILO.  Other names would be
>      useful. Any preference?  Also, aside from the "can I
>      install it without sighted asistance" question, is
>      there a preference as to which version of linux works
>      best for the blind?

Once installed, there should be very little difference
between different distributions, except that upgrades and
package management are superior, and very easy, with RedHat
(you don't have to re-install, as with Slackware). Bug fixes
and security fixes come very easy with Red Hat, with fixes
provided very promptly.  There is, however, a method where
Slackware can be installed without sighted assistance: see
the EmacSpeak HOWTO.  Debian also has a good package
management and upgrade system, but their install is reputed
to be more difficult.  I run RedHat, but borrow packages
(programs) from Slackware and Debian when I need them.

> We're thinking of redhat.  I'll have sighted assistance,
> for the installation.

RedHat would be the easiest to install, with help, and is
extremely well documented.  Their manual, and lots of other
documentation is available on line, on the CD, at least it
is on the cheapbytes CD I bought for $2.00 (plus $5.00 S+H),
from www.cheapbytes.com.  I assume that the same stuff is
available at the RedHat web site.  The official RedHat CD
package offers some advantages for graphical users, because
of some more polished commercial X-windows stuff, and a
printed manual, at a much higher price ($49.00), but I doubt
anyone here cares much about that.  If you have a VERY
fast connection, you can do an automated ftp install
right off the net, with no CD.

>      2) How should I partition the drive.  I think its a 1
>      gig.  I assume I need to use fat so dos will work.

Only for your dos partitions.  You should use the default of
ext2 filesystems for Linux partitions.  This stuff is
explained in detail, in the online RedHat users guide,
and just about everything else you need to know, apart
from the speech/blind stuff.

> How big should the partitions be?  Linux needs several
> (root user, tmp) right?  How big should they be?

>From the RedHat manual (users guide):

   A swap partition
	for virtual memory. If your computer has 16 MB of
	memory or less, you must create a swap partition; even if
	you have more memory, a swap partition is recommended. The
	size of your swap partition should be at least 16 MB or the
	same as the amount of memory in your computer, whichever is
	larger.

   A root partition
	to be mounted as / (the root directory) when your
	Red Hat Linux system boots; it only needs to contain things
	necessary to boot your system, as well as system
	configuration files. 50--80 MB works well for most systems.

   A /usr partition,
	where much of the software on a Red Hat Linux
	system lives; this partition should be 200--500 MB,
	depending on how many packages you plan to install.

And the manual goes on to point out that the user may also
want a /home partion, and some other possibilities that I
wouldn't recommend for a beginning user.  Some users elect
to just put everything on one big root partition (usually
beginners).

>      3) Has anyone had experience with mbrola on a 486?  I
>      may get a hold of an audapter synthesizer, but not
>      sure.  How does screader work?

I'm sighted, so don't know the answers to some stuff.  I
have installed mbrola, however, and screader, and can send
you documentation for that stuff, if you wish.  I am told
that you need a pentium class machine to run mbrola, too,
because of it's use of real digitally recorded voice sounds.
On the other hand, the output should be of much higher
quality, which my wife needs (hearing problems too), and
much cheaper than a hardware synth.  I am interested in
hearing from anyone who can give us information about how
well all this works, when set up properly.  Will mbrola work
acceptably on an AMD 586?  I have a 486 PCI motherboard,
with a 586 in the cpu socket.  For those of you who may not
know, the 586 is a very inexpensive 486 cpu replacement that
runs at 133 MH, but gives performance comparable to a 75 MH
Pentium, I assume because of the slower motherboard.  Is
this fast enough for mbrola?

> I assume, from the recent discussions, that it is just a
> modification on screen which sends text to another serial
> port (or speech card or somftware synthesizer) and thus
> has no way to review the screen.

I haven't got everything working together yet, (my tts
packages won't work right yet) but according to the man
(manual) page for screader, you can move around from line
to line and speak out a single line, the whole screen, just
characters, or whatever, so yes, you can review in multiple
different ways.  Note, however, that it is kinda alpha or
beta software, so I don't know how well it works: can
someone else tell us how well it works?  Does anyone have
it working with mbrola?  If so, would you send me a copy of
your /opt/etc/abt320/tts file (the mbrola line, anyway)?
Thanks in advance.

My take on the linux mbrola stuff is that it is alpha
software, and so poorly documented that it is very difficult
to collect and set up.  We need a HOWTO for this, probably,
but maybe the software needs to mature a bit first?
Comments?

>      4) What is the difference between mbrola and
>      festival?  Will emacspeak work with both?

I don't know about emacspeak, but according to the man page,
screader should work with many different tts packages,
including festival (the author gives an example config line
for festival), and switch between them on the fly.  I like
this, because learning emacs is not something I relish: it
is known for it's steep learning curve, and I don't like
it's heavy use of control and escape keys, not to mention
the fact that it is known for being a resource hog.

You would probably want to read the EmacsSpeak HOWTO, in any
event, because of the excellent general advice it gives, and
the general questions it answers, even for those who don't
want to use EmacsSpeak.

And don't overlook the web and ftp references appended to
every message on this list: they will answer most questions,
and much more.

L. C. Robinson
reply to infynity@cyberhighway.net (a family account)

Re: I'm finally getting a machine

[L. C. Robinson]

On Mon, 26 Jan 1998, James R. Van Zandt wrote:

> 
> 
> Richard Caloggero <rjc@MIT.EDU> writes:
> >     1) I want to install linux on a 486. I wanna run dos as well.
> >Which boot program is best for non-visual use.  I've heard of LILO.
> 
> LILO works fine, but has these limitations:
> 
> 1. It must get the kernel from a partition entirely within the first
> 1024MB of the disk.
 
There was a new version announced that overcomes this limit, provided
that your bios doesn't get in the way, like on some old motherboards.

> 3. LILO writes into the boot sector of the disk.  Mistakes here leave
> you with a disk that will not boot any operating system - even DOS.

So will a trashed DOS filesystem.  But then you boot from a dos
floppy, and run scandisk.   You should also always have a Linux
boot floppy or rescue disk, and know how to use them.  Most 
distributions have an image for such a disk on their CD, that
you can copy to a floppy (and print the instructions for use).
Or you can ftp some various rescue images, and copy them to
a floppy.  There is a HOWTO for this.

> I recommend you use loadlin, which is a DOS program that boots Linux.
> It requires that you write a kernel into a DOS file, and include the
> root filesystem on the loadlin command line.

I have never used this utility for normal booting, but it should be a
good alternative to a rescue disk, too.  My Redhat CD has this set up
right on the CD, so that I didn't even need to make a boot floppy.  I
just went to the dos dir on the CD, and ran a batch file (called
"autoboot"?) that called loadlin with the proper command line, and the
kernel image that was on the CD.  One could copy that batch file and
modify it to use the same kernel, but use the already installed root
partition instead of going into the install.  Once that was working
reliably, then one could install LILO with the confidence that one
could try again if it didn't work.  But like the man said, never
install LILO without an alternative method for backup, as the LILO
docs tell you.  Don't let that scare you, though.  I've installed LILO
plenty of times over the years, with newly upgraded kernels, and had
very few problems.  

> DOS and Linux each need their own partitions for system files.
> Linux can easily access the DOS partitions, but not the other way
> around.  As for partition sizes, I have a rather long draft
> HOWTO-Partition which I will send you (and anyone else who asks for
> it) separately.

Most distributions also have fairly detailed instructions for this,
since it is a step in their install process, for most users.

L. C. Robinson
reply to infynity@cyberhighway.net (a family account)

Re: I'm finally getting a machine

[Jos Lemmens]

Hello Richard,

>      3) Has anyone had experience with mbrola on a 486?  I may get a
> hold of an audapter synthesizer, but not sure.  How does screader work?
> I assume, from the recent discussions, that it is just a modification
> on screen which sends text to another serial port (or speech card or
> somftware synthesizer) and thus has no way to review the screen. If you
> miss something, that's too bad -- redraw the whole screen and listen
> carefully!
>
I've no experience with mbrola on a 486. Festival uses the mbrola 
database, but it is too slow. Freephone also uses the mbrola database
and is much faster. You can also use the 'say' synthesizer. This is
not based on mbrola and therefore not so good as freephone, but 'say'
is fery fast.
The latest beta release of screader has many review options.
You can find this version and the speech synthesizers on my homepage.

   http://www.inter.nl.net/users/jlemmens/

>      4) What is the difference between mbrola and festival?  Will
> emacspeak work with both?
>
I don't know anything about emacsspeak. 
Mbrola is a database with sounds from a language, for example the 
database 'en1' contains all the sounds of the english language. Festival
is an Text-To-Speech tool that sends a given ascii string through 
the mbrola database. So if you want to use festival or freephone 
you also need an mbrola database.(festival can also work with other 
databases, but I only use mbrola)

>      5) Does anyone know of a midi sequencing package (even a basic
>      one) which runs under linux without x-windows?
>
I've a Roland JV30 keyboard and I use playmidi to play midi-files on
it. Playmidi is simple text-based program.

--

   -------------------------------
   Jos Lemmens
   The Netherlands
   Tel.: + 31-10-248 0 266
   E-mail: jlemmens@inter.NL.net
   Homepage: www.inter.nl.net/users/jlemmens

Re: I'm finally getting a machine

[Jos Lemmens]

Hello L. C. Robinson

> >      3) Has anyone had experience with mbrola on a 486?  I
> >      may get a hold of an audapter synthesizer, but not
> >      sure.  How does screader work?
>
> I'm sighted, so don't know the answers to some stuff.  I
> have installed mbrola, however, and screader, and can send
> you documentation for that stuff, if you wish.  I am told
> that you need a pentium class machine to run mbrola, too,
> because of it's use of real digitally recorded voice sounds.
> On the other hand, the output should be of much higher
> quality, which my wife needs (hearing problems too), and
> much cheaper than a hardware synth.  I am interested in
> hearing from anyone who can give us information about how
> well all this works, when set up properly.  Will mbrola work
> acceptably on an AMD 586?  I have a 486 PCI motherboard,
> with a 586 in the cpu socket.  For those of you who may not
> know, the 586 is a very inexpensive 486 cpu replacement that
> runs at 133 MH, but gives performance comparable to a 75 MH
> Pentium, I assume because of the slower motherboard.  Is
> this fast enough for mbrola?
>
> > I assume, from the recent discussions, that it is just a
> > modification on screen which sends text to another serial
> > port (or speech card or somftware synthesizer) and thus
> > has no way to review the screen.
>
> I haven't got everything working together yet, (my tts
> packages won't work right yet) but according to the man
> (manual) page for screader, you can move around from line
> to line and speak out a single line, the whole screen, just
> characters, or whatever, so yes, you can review in multiple
> different ways.  Note, however, that it is kinda alpha or
> beta software, so I don't know how well it works: can
> someone else tell us how well it works?  Does anyone have
> it working with mbrola?  If so, would you send me a copy of
> your /opt/etc/abt320/tts file (the mbrola line, anyway)?
> Thanks in advance.
>
You can use festival or freephone with screader. Both programs work
with the mbrola database.
In the distribution of screader there is an example tts-file with a
line for festival and freephone.

> >      4) What is the difference between mbrola and
> >      festival?  Will emacspeak work with both?
>
> I don't know about emacspeak, but according to the man page,
> screader should work with many different tts packages,
> including festival (the author gives an example config line
> for festival), and switch between them on the fly.  I like
> this, because learning emacs is not something I relish: it
> is known for it's steep learning curve, and I don't like
> it's heavy use of control and escape keys, not to mention
> the fact that it is known for being a resource hog.
>
> You would probably want to read the EmacsSpeak HOWTO, in any
> event, because of the excellent general advice it gives, and
> the general questions it answers, even for those who don't
> want to use EmacsSpeak.
>
--

   -------------------------------
   Jos Lemmens
   The Netherlands
   Tel.: + 31-10-248 0 266
   E-mail: jlemmens@inter.NL.net
   Homepage: www.inter.nl.net/users/jlemmens

Re: I'm finally getting a machine

[bratr]

Hi Jim,
I would be interested in getting a copy of your information on
partitioning for Dos and Linux. 
thanks,
Brad Trainham

RE: I'm finally getting a machine

[Chris Peterson]

Lilo
 would probably be the easiest boot manager to use since it's all command 
line operated.  You just type linux or dos or... what ever. To get your 
operating system started.  I've never had a reason to use anything else.

Chris