RealPlayer, RAP, and XVFB

RealPlayer, RAP, and XVFB

[T. V. Raman]

To all blinuxers--

The whole thread about rap and realaudio 
is painful to watch.

The rap script is a simple script designed to automate the
somewhat repetitive task of making sure there is an X server
running and launching the realplayer.  The reason for the
problems reported here are symptomatic of  this.

 Rather than complaining after simply downloading the
script, you would be better off with such tools if you:

1) Looked at the script to see what it does
--in fact the readme file that comes with rap documents
exactly what it does--

2) test and get each individual piece working in your
   environment in this case Xvfb etc 
--there is no valid excuse 
such as "I did not have access" for not doing this--
because you can start xvfb from any shell running inside
   emacspeak

3) finally use the packaged rap  script so you dont have to repeat all the steps
   each time--

If you are not comfortable with doing this, go use M$
software where you will have the option of clicking yes, no
or cancel --

And by the way, the rap script nukes the Xvfb server each
time you stop real audio -- if you play realaudio a lot, you
may just want to start up Xvfb running at boot time and have
the rap script only launch the realaudio player.

Also, someone on this list mentioned the realaudio player
getting into stutter mode and speculated that this had
something to do with the windowing system-- that stutter is
typically caused by the network or machine getting
overloaded and has little to do with the windowing system.
If it does go to stutter mode, just stop and start the
player-- it will catch up.

-- 
Best Regards,
--raman

      Adobe Systems                 Tel: 1 (408) 536 3945   (W14-612)
      Advanced Technology Group     Fax: 1 (408) 537 4042 
      (W14 129) 345 Park Avenue     Email: raman@adobe.com 
      San Jose , CA 95110 -2704     Email:  raman@cs.cornell.edu
      http://labrador.corp.adobe.com/~raman/        (Adobe Intranet)
      http://cs.cornell.edu/home/raman/raman.html    (Cornell)
----------------------------------------------------------------------
    Disclaimer: The opinions expressed are my own and in no way should be taken
as representative of my employer, Adobe Systems Inc.
____________________________________________________________

Re: RealPlayer, RAP, and XVFB

[wlestes]

>  Rather than complaining after simply downloading the
> script, you would be better off with such tools if you:
> 
> 1) Looked at the script to see what it does
> --in fact the readme file that comes with rap documents
> exactly what it does--
> 
> 2) test and get each individual piece working in your
>    environment in this case Xvfb etc 
> --there is no valid excuse 
> such as "I did not have access" for not doing this--
> because you can start xvfb from any shell running inside
>    emacspeak
> 
> 3) finally use the packaged rap  script so you dont have to repeat all the steps
>    each time--
> 
> If you are not comfortable with doing this, go use M$
> software where you will have the option of clicking yes, no
> or cancel --

Raman, I agree with you in the attitude and actions that you suggest
linux users should take. That is, that is the attitude I try to bring
to new software under linux (and other OSes i use). However, I would
point out that much of what linux needs to do to be sucessful in the
desktop OS market is provide more of the "yes-no-cancel" features that
many microsoft video games provide. Ultimately, we will have to find a
balance between the "do it yourself because you know your environment"
and "have the computer do it for you because the environment is not
open enough to be known". I suspect that this balance will take some
time to reach and will require much patience on all sides.

--will

RE: RealPlayer, RAP, and XVFB

[Chris Peterson]

> If you are not comfortable with doing this, go use M$
> software where you will have the option of clicking yes, no
> or cancel --

While I don't totally disagree with this attitude, I would like to remind
you that, if we want linux to even begin to compete with M$, we need to
provide some mechanism of support.  Telling someone to "rtfm" in so many
words is basically saying that, if you're not an expert then we don't want
you.  Any customer service rep, telling this to a customer, would have been
fired on the spot.

Chris

RE: RealPlayer, RAP, and XVFB

[T's Mailing Lists]

On Wed, 1 Jul 1998, Chris Peterson wrote:

> Telling someone to "rtfm" in so many words is basically saying that, if
> you're not an expert then we don't want you.

No, it just says: read the fucking manual.
*
t

PS: I think it's difficult to keep the balance between rtfm and "M$ has
    encountered a problem at 2349:9834:A093:7 abort/cancel?". But linux
    defacto >still is< a do it yourself OS, so rtfm is a >must<.

------------------------------------------------------------------------------
             Tomas Pospisek - Freelance: Linuxing, Networking
                      http://spin.ch/~tpo/freelance
         www.SPIN.ch - Internet Services in Graubuenden/Switzerland
             WANTED: sysadmin-> http://spin.ch/~tpo/joboffer
------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Re: RealPlayer, RAP, and XVFB

[Brian L. Sellden]

Chris:

You said:
> While I don't totally disagree with this attitude, I would like to remind
> you that, if we want linux to even begin to compete with M$, we need to
> provide some mechanism of support.  Telling someone to "rtfm" in so many
> words is basically saying that, if you're not an expert then we don't want
> you.  Any customer service rep, telling this to a customer, would have been
> fired on the spot.

This attitude drives me crazy.  If you're trying to run some
application, you have a *responsibility* to read the documentation.
Just because a customer service rep doesn't call
someone an idiot for not reading the docs, doesn't mean he's
not thinking it.

And you don't have to be an expert to read a file called 'README'.
But if you read enough of them, you may *become* an expert.

Regards,

Brian.
-- 
---------------
Brian L. Sellden - brian@henge.com, brians@usa.net
User of Emacspeak 8.0,  making Unix talk.
http://www.henge.com/~brian
	      What on earth would a man do with himself
		if something did not stand in his way?
		-- H.G. Wells

Re: RealPlayer, RAP, and XVFB

[T. V. Raman]

wlestes@duvallp.uncg.edu writes:
True-- for success on the average desktop 
the out of the box install is ultimately needed.

However, it is not fair for users to expect free of cost
hand-holding at every step.

time is *money* and if someone posts a question
and expects an answer for free simply because they weren't
prepared to spend the time reding the docs that came with
whatever they downloaded, I'll have little or no sympathy 
for such users.


If this attitude continues (seems  special to the blinux
community)
people who would normally answer questions that deserve an
answer (because the answer is in fact not in the docs)
will simply get turned off and go away.


 > >  Rather than complaining after simply downloading the
 > > script, you would be better off with such tools if you:
> 
> 1) Looked at the script to see what it does
> --in fact the readme file that comes with rap documents
> exactly what it does--
> 
> 2) test and get each individual piece working in your
>    environment in this case Xvfb etc 
> --there is no valid excuse 
> such as "I did not have access" for not doing this--
> because you can start xvfb from any shell running inside
>    emacspeak
> 
> 3) finally use the packaged rap  script so you dont have to repeat all the steps
>    each time--
> 
> If you are not comfortable with doing this, go use M$
> software where you will have the option of clicking yes, no
> or cancel --
 > 
 > Raman, I agree with you in the attitude and actions that you suggest
 > linux users should take. That is, that is the attitude I try to bring
 > to new software under linux (and other OSes i use). However, I would
 > point out that much of what linux needs to do to be sucessful in the
 > desktop OS market is provide more of the "yes-no-cancel" features that
 > many microsoft video games provide. Ultimately, we will have to find a
 > balance between the "do it yourself because you know your environment"
 > and "have the computer do it for you because the environment is not
 > open enough to be known". I suspect that this balance will take some
 > time to reach and will require much patience on all sides.
 > 
 > --will

-- 
Best Regards,
--raman

      Adobe Systems                 Tel: 1 (408) 536 3945   (W14-612)
      Advanced Technology Group     Fax: 1 (408) 537 4042 
      (W14 129) 345 Park Avenue     Email: raman@adobe.com 
      San Jose , CA 95110 -2704     Email:  raman@cs.cornell.edu
      http://labrador.corp.adobe.com/~raman/        (Adobe Intranet)
      http://cs.cornell.edu/home/raman/raman.html    (Cornell)
----------------------------------------------------------------------
    Disclaimer: The opinions expressed are my own and in no way should be taken
as representative of my employer, Adobe Systems Inc.
____________________________________________________________

RE: RealPlayer, RAP, and XVFB

[T. V. Raman]

Chris Peterson writes:
I'm neither a sales rep that you pay--
and nor do you have the luxury of firing me.

In fact people who volunteer their help 
expect a little more respect for their time 

 > > If you are not comfortable with doing this, go use M$
 > > software where you will have the option of clicking yes, no
> or cancel --
 > 
 > While I don't totally disagree with this attitude, I would like to remind
 > you that, if we want linux to even begin to compete with M$, we need to
 > provide some mechanism of support.  Telling someone to "rtfm" in so many
 > words is basically saying that, if you're not an expert then we don't want
 > you.  Any customer service rep, telling this to a customer, would have been
 > fired on the spot.
 > 
 > Chris
 > 
 > ---
 > Send your message for blinux-list to blinux-list@redhat.com
 > Blinux software archive at ftp://leb.net/pub/blinux
 > Blinux web page at http://leb.net/blinux
 > To unsubscribe send mail to blinux-list-request@redhat.com
 > with subject line: unsubscribe

-- 
Best Regards,
--raman

      Adobe Systems                 Tel: 1 (408) 536 3945   (W14-612)
      Advanced Technology Group     Fax: 1 (408) 537 4042 
      (W14 129) 345 Park Avenue     Email: raman@adobe.com 
      San Jose , CA 95110 -2704     Email:  raman@cs.cornell.edu
      http://labrador.corp.adobe.com/~raman/        (Adobe Intranet)
      http://cs.cornell.edu/home/raman/raman.html    (Cornell)
----------------------------------------------------------------------
    Disclaimer: The opinions expressed are my own and in no way should be taken
as representative of my employer, Adobe Systems Inc.
____________________________________________________________

Re: RealPlayer, RAP, and XVFB

[wlestes]

> However, it is not fair for users to expect free of cost
> hand-holding at every step.

AMEN!

> If this attitude continues (seems  special to the blinux
> community)

No, it's not special to this list, unfortunately.

Re: RealPlayer, RAP, and XVFB

[Whistler]

While I don't like the attitude of the people I am about to side with I do
have to say.  Linux is already competing strongly with MicroJunk.  Over 7
million people use it more software venders than ever are now supporting
versions of their programs for linux that used to only be 95, NT look at
The company that used to be Borland.  They are now called Inprise and now
have a version of Interbase out for redhat linux look at the company that
makes clipper they have a version called Flagship that beats anything they
have on a NT or 95 machine.  Look at Word Perfect they have thrown their
total support behind Linux and many more are doing so.  The Titanic's
graphics was done in Linux so don't spout that if we ever want Linux to
compete because it is competing and it in the long run does have a chance
to become an equal because it is a far supearior free operating system
that not only can be used by the civilian world but it has full Posex
compliance and now the Government is using it.  Something that Freebsd
can't do.  I also have a busness consulting for companies in the area and
I will tell you this Linux is replacing Novel servers and Hp servers and
even NT servers all through out my state.  Even at my college they
couldn't get the Sun box to run so what did they do they made the Sun box
a web server and for classes they use Linux.  They are trying to use NT
for some of the programming classes but they are getting tired of the
constant crashes so theya re even looking at using Linux  for all their
networking needs.


Well I have rambled enough it just ticks me off when people seem to think
Linux isn't competing and will never compete if we don't dumb it down so
that these window clickers can use it.  I say let them keep their
graphical window clicking stuff at home the power and the money for people
who want to work in computers is working on server aplications for
business.  I know for a fact with my Linux knowledge I can get a job
paying mega money.  Can windows 95 users say the same?

Ken  /whsitelr
www.valhalla.com
www.blinksoft.com
telnet valhala.com 4242

On Wed, 1 Jul 1998, Brian L. Sellden wrote:

> Chris:
> 
> You said:
> > While I don't totally disagree with this attitude, I would like to remind
> > you that, if we want linux to even begin to compete with M$, we need to
> > provide some mechanism of support.  Telling someone to "rtfm" in so many
> > words is basically saying that, if you're not an expert then we don't want
> > you.  Any customer service rep, telling this to a customer, would have been
> > fired on the spot.
> 
> This attitude drives me crazy.  If you're trying to run some
> application, you have a *responsibility* to read the documentation.
> Just because a customer service rep doesn't call
> someone an idiot for not reading the docs, doesn't mean he's
> not thinking it.
> 
> And you don't have to be an expert to read a file called 'README'.
> But if you read enough of them, you may *become* an expert.
> 
> Regards,
> 
> Brian.
> -- 
> ---------------
> Brian L. Sellden - brian@henge.com, brians@usa.net
> User of Emacspeak 8.0,  making Unix talk.
> http://www.henge.com/~brian
> 	      What on earth would a man do with himself
> 		if something did not stand in his way?
> 		-- H.G. Wells
> 
> ---
> Send your message for blinux-list to blinux-list@redhat.com
> Blinux software archive at ftp://leb.net/pub/blinux
> Blinux web page at http://leb.net/blinux
> To unsubscribe send mail to blinux-list-request@redhat.com
> with subject line: unsubscribe
> 

Re: RealPlayer, RAP, and XVFB

[Whistler]

I agree with you on the point that we have to find a middle ground  I
think though the middle ground is not yet accessable for the blind
communitty at large.  I think the middle ground is Xwin and only
Ultrasonics will tell.  My wife uses Xwin and truthfully besides the
 avalibility of some software packages Xwin seems to give the same look
and feel of the Yes no Environment that the 95 nerds need.   So bring on
Xwin but leave me the command line where true power lay.

Ken /whistler
www.blinksoft.com
www.valhalla.com
telnet valhalla.com 4242

On Wed, 1 Jul 1998, T. V. Raman wrote:

> wlestes@duvallp.uncg.edu writes:
> True-- for success on the average desktop 
> the out of the box install is ultimately needed.
> 
> However, it is not fair for users to expect free of cost
> hand-holding at every step.
> 
> time is *money* and if someone posts a question
> and expects an answer for free simply because they weren't
> prepared to spend the time reding the docs that came with
> whatever they downloaded, I'll have little or no sympathy 
> for such users.
> 
> 
> If this attitude continues (seems  special to the blinux
> community)
> people who would normally answer questions that deserve an
> answer (because the answer is in fact not in the docs)
> will simply get turned off and go away.
> 
> 
>  > >  Rather than complaining after simply downloading the
>  > > script, you would be better off with such tools if you:
> > 
> > 1) Looked at the script to see what it does
> > --in fact the readme file that comes with rap documents
> > exactly what it does--
> > 
> > 2) test and get each individual piece working in your
> >    environment in this case Xvfb etc 
> > --there is no valid excuse 
> > such as "I did not have access" for not doing this--
> > because you can start xvfb from any shell running inside
> >    emacspeak
> > 
> > 3) finally use the packaged rap  script so you dont have to repeat all the steps
> >    each time--
> > 
> > If you are not comfortable with doing this, go use M$
> > software where you will have the option of clicking yes, no
> > or cancel --
>  > 
>  > Raman, I agree with you in the attitude and actions that you suggest
>  > linux users should take. That is, that is the attitude I try to bring
>  > to new software under linux (and other OSes i use). However, I would
>  > point out that much of what linux needs to do to be sucessful in the
>  > desktop OS market is provide more of the "yes-no-cancel" features that
>  > many microsoft video games provide. Ultimately, we will have to find a
>  > balance between the "do it yourself because you know your environment"
>  > and "have the computer do it for you because the environment is not
>  > open enough to be known". I suspect that this balance will take some
>  > time to reach and will require much patience on all sides.
>  > 
>  > --will
> 
> -- 
> Best Regards,
> --raman
> 
>       Adobe Systems                 Tel: 1 (408) 536 3945   (W14-612)
>       Advanced Technology Group     Fax: 1 (408) 537 4042 
>       (W14 129) 345 Park Avenue     Email: raman@adobe.com 
>       San Jose , CA 95110 -2704     Email:  raman@cs.cornell.edu
>       http://labrador.corp.adobe.com/~raman/        (Adobe Intranet)
>       http://cs.cornell.edu/home/raman/raman.html    (Cornell)
> ----------------------------------------------------------------------
>     Disclaimer: The opinions expressed are my own and in no way should be taken
> as representative of my employer, Adobe Systems Inc.
> ____________________________________________________________
> 
> ---
> Send your message for blinux-list to blinux-list@redhat.com
> Blinux software archive at ftp://leb.net/pub/blinux
> Blinux web page at http://leb.net/blinux
> To unsubscribe send mail to blinux-list-request@redhat.com
> with subject line: unsubscribe
> 

Linux support (was RE: RealPlayer, RAP, and XVFB)

[Jason White]

It is perfectly reasonable to expect a computer user to read the relevant
documentation prior to asking questions on a mailing list. The result is
that only the more difficult issues, which are not directly addressed in
the documentation, are discussed on the list. Often the best means of
answering a technical query is to refer the inquirer to an appropriate
manual or other readily available source of information.

I agree completely with T.V. Raman's observation that people who provide
technical assistance to others on a voluntary basis, and that includes
most contributors to this mailing list, can not be expected to obviate the
need for software users to learn their operating system and applications
to a reasonable level of detail, and to take advantage of pre-existing
informational resources in so doing.

If you wish to respond to these comments, please do so privately rather
than via the list.