linux, and audio.

linux, and audio.

[cbowman]

hi listers, here i am with another question. i was wondering  are there eany
good programs out there for linux to let us play, and record audio files
such as realaudio, mp3s, wav, or eanything like that. also I know that in
windows we can listen to things on the net but, can we do this in linux
also? thanks
charles

Net-Tamer V 1.11 - Test Drive

Re: linux, and audio.

[philwh]

Hi.
there are several programs available for audio.
trplayer can be used to play real audio.
freeamp is a good mp3 player.

I use lynx and trplayer to listen to the acbradio broadcasts.

phil

On Wed, Nov 21, 2001 at 12:14:33PM -0600, cbowman@netdoor.com wrote:
> 
> hi listers, here i am with another question. i was wondering  are there eany
> good programs out there for linux to let us play, and record audio files
> such as realaudio, mp3s, wav, or eanything like that. also I know that in
> windows we can listen to things on the net but, can we do this in linux
> also? thanks
> charles
> 
> Net-Tamer V 1.11 - Test Drive
> 
> 
> 
> _______________________________________________
> Blinux-list mailing list
> Blinux-list@redhat.com
> https://listman.redhat.com/mailman/listinfo/blinux-list

Re: linux, and audio.

[A. R. Vener]

There are many programs. I use
the trplayer interface for realaudio.  You will need
to install a realaudio client and then trplayer to
invoke it.  

Check out 
  http://speech.braille.uwo.ca/mailman/listinfo/trplayer

For MP3 I use  mpg123. Check out:
http://www.mpg123.de/mpg123/mpg123-0.54.tar.gz

Your Realaudio installation needs to be compiled with X but  X
itself does not need to be running on your system.

Both trplayer and mpg123 are text console interfaces. Both
can be added to your .mailcap file to play audio streams from
lynx.  There are other audio applications out there as well, but
these are the two I've found most useful for simply listening to 
online audio.  


rudy
  

> hi listers, here i am with another question. i was wondering  are there eany
> good programs out there for linux to let us play, and record audio files
> such as realaudio, mp3s, wav, or eanything like that. also I know that in
> windows we can listen to things on the net but, can we do this in linux
> also? thanks
> charles
> 
> Net-Tamer V 1.11 - Test Drive
> 
> 
> 
> _______________________________________________
> Blinux-list mailing list
> Blinux-list@redhat.com
> https://listman.redhat.com/mailman/listinfo/blinux-list

Re: linux, and audio.

[cbowman]

hi, ok I see so freeamp, is something like winamp for
windows. cool. thanks for letting me know. 
charles 


On Wed, 21 Nov 2001 philwh@gate.net wrote:

> Hi.
> there are several programs available for audio.
> trplayer can be used to play real audio.
> freeamp is a good mp3 player.
> 
> I use lynx and trplayer to listen to the acbradio broadcasts.
> 
> phil
> 
> On Wed, Nov 21, 2001 at 12:14:33PM -0600, cbowman@netdoor.com wrote:
> > 
> > hi listers, here i am with another question. i was wondering  are there eany
> > good programs out there for linux to let us play, and record audio files
> > such as realaudio, mp3s, wav, or eanything like that. also I know that in
> > windows we can listen to things on the net but, can we do this in linux
> > also? thanks
> > charles
> > 
> > Net-Tamer V 1.11 - Test Drive
> > 
> > 
> > 
> > _______________________________________________
> > Blinux-list mailing list
> > Blinux-list@redhat.com
> > https://listman.redhat.com/mailman/listinfo/blinux-list
> 
> 
> 
> _______________________________________________
> Blinux-list mailing list
> Blinux-list@redhat.com
> https://listman.redhat.com/mailman/listinfo/blinux-list
> 

Re: linux, and audio.

[cbowman]

hi, ok this brings up another question. I haven't ever compiled eanything
before. does this need to be don with all linux software, and is it hard
to do? thanks
charles 


On Wed, 21 Nov 2001, A. R. Vener wrote:

> There are many programs. I use
> the trplayer interface for realaudio.  You will need
> to install a realaudio client and then trplayer to
> invoke it.  
> 
> Check out 
>   http://speech.braille.uwo.ca/mailman/listinfo/trplayer
> 
> For MP3 I use  mpg123. Check out:
> http://www.mpg123.de/mpg123/mpg123-0.54.tar.gz
> 
> Your Realaudio installation needs to be compiled with X but  X
> itself does not need to be running on your system.
> 
> Both trplayer and mpg123 are text console interfaces. Both
> can be added to your .mailcap file to play audio streams from
> lynx.  There are other audio applications out there as well, but
> these are the two I've found most useful for simply listening to 
> online audio.  
> 
> 
> rudy
>   
> 
> > hi listers, here i am with another question. i was wondering  are there eany
> > good programs out there for linux to let us play, and record audio files
> > such as realaudio, mp3s, wav, or eanything like that. also I know that in
> > windows we can listen to things on the net but, can we do this in linux
> > also? thanks
> > charles
> > 
> > Net-Tamer V 1.11 - Test Drive
> > 
> > 
> > 
> > _______________________________________________
> > Blinux-list mailing list
> > Blinux-list@redhat.com
> > https://listman.redhat.com/mailman/listinfo/blinux-list
> 
> 
> 
> _______________________________________________
> Blinux-list mailing list
> Blinux-list@redhat.com
> https://listman.redhat.com/mailman/listinfo/blinux-list
> 

Re: linux, and audio.

[Bill Gaughan]

Ok,

Does anyone know if lynx browser supports JavaScript, yet? So we can use
all those audio websites that invoke a JavaScript before sending you to
the audio url. Is there a way to download the script and decipher the
audio url without running the script? Does anyone know of a website that
has commercial audio radio stations especially talk radio that has the
urls directly to the audio feed instead of pointing to the JavaScript
which the broadcast.com page points to?

If lynx supports the rudiments of JavaScript, what tools do I need and do
I need to recompile lynx?

Thanks, everyone.

-- 
Bill Gaughan
wgaughan@snet.net

Re: linux, and audio.

[Bill Gaughan]

Does anyone know of the direct audio feed address for "Dreamland" with
Whitley Strieber? And, how come some live365 sites let you have access
with "trplayer" thru "lynx" and others don't? How is it that some audio
sites give you ads without invoking JavaScript. I am not a C++ programmer,
but, we have simply got to find a way around this "unsupported url scheme"
message we all get when we try to invoke JavaScript in lynx. I fear that
lynx and maybe linux, will soon be useless to us all unless we gain full
meaningful and understandable access to X-Windows and X applications like
Netscape for Linux. I fear that, once again, we will be left behind, or
forced to stumble thru the jumble of MS Windows software products.

Until computers and the computer hardware and software industry develop
national and international uniform standards, computers will continue to
be useful toys. Just look at what a disaster internet radio has become
with the folding of netradio.com last month. Not to speak of the disaster
the dispute over royalty pay to announcers and advertising actors has done
to internet radio. Many broadcasts have pulled content from the internet
because of the fear of lawsuits, because the actors guild that records the
advertisements wants to be payed twice on their royalties, once for
conventional media (radio) and again for being broadcast on the internet.

-- 
Bill Gaughan
wgaughan@snet.net

brltty and simultaneous grade 2 translation

[Bill Gaughan]

Does anyone have plug-in code for the brltty source tree that will hot-key
simultaneous grade 2 translation of braille on the display while keeping
the screen as conventional text. ScrrenPower Braille for DOS does this,
for those of us who have PowerBraille devices from TeleSensory.

If only "SPB.exe" (DOS) had cut and paste like "BRLTTY" does. and if only
"BRLTTY" had spontaneous grade 2 translation of text like the "view2.exe"
feature of the SPB package for DOS.

Just wondered. Then we could read conventional braille and listen at the
same time with ViaVoice, and all that in linux, too! Just what do you
think of that, Mr. Gates?

-- 
Bill Gaughan
wgaughan@snet.net

Re: linux, and audio.

[Dave Hunt]

Not sure Lynx supports JavaScript, but, you can 'source' the page, and 
look for the link to the audio feed and, for instance, add it to your 
'lynx_bookmarks' file.

-Dave

Re: linux, and audio.

[L. C. Robinson]

On Thu, 22 Nov 2001, cbowman wrote:

> ... another question. I haven't ever compiled anything before.

There is an excellent tutorial in the Software-Building-HOWTO.
You can usually shortcut this just by reading and following the
directions in the README that comes with the package.

> does this need to be done with all linux software

No.  You can almost always find an appropriate compiled, easy to
install version for your distribution.

> and is it hard to do?

That depends on the type of user.  The average M$ computer user
has been trained to expect, and "need" expensive phone support
for the simplest of tasks, but if you are reasonably literate,
and can read and follow directions, it should pretty easy.  You
don't need to be a programmer.  You will find that most of your
effort will then go into learning the many features and
capabilities of the average package.

Occasionally you may try an alpha or beta package that won't
compile on your system.  Usually you just wait till the project
matures a bit.  Tweaking the package, and trying to fix it,
usually isn't worth the effort, unless you are into programming,
AND have an special interest in that particular project.  Open
Source projects usually mature very quickly, and you would end up
upgrading anyway, in a fairly short time.

LCR

-- 
L. C. Robinson
reply to no_spam+munged_lcr@onewest.net.invalid

People buy MicroShaft for compatibility, but get incompatibility and
instability instead.  This is award winning "innovation".  Find
out how MS holds your data hostage with "The *Lens*"; see
"CyberSnare" at http://www.netaction.org/msoft/cybersnare.html

Re: linux, and audio.

[A. R. Vener]

For lynx accessible realaudio radio streams check out:

http://www.virtualtuner.com 
and
http://pages.sprint.ca/RadioClicks/files/default.htm

Re: linux, and audio.

[Luke Davis]

One thing you can do, is press "E" on those links that are unsupported.
It will then show the link text, and if it contains an URL, you can edit
it down to just that URL, you should be able to access it.

Luke


On Sun, 25 Nov 2001, Bill Gaughan wrote:

> Does anyone know of the direct audio feed address for "Dreamland" with
> Whitley Strieber? And, how come some live365 sites let you have access
> with "trplayer" thru "lynx" and others don't? How is it that some audio
> sites give you ads without invoking JavaScript. I am not a C++ programmer,
> but, we have simply got to find a way around this "unsupported url scheme"
> message we all get when we try to invoke JavaScript in lynx. I fear that
> lynx and maybe linux, will soon be useless to us all unless we gain full
> meaningful and understandable access to X-Windows and X applications like
> Netscape for Linux. I fear that, once again, we will be left behind, or
> forced to stumble thru the jumble of MS Windows software products.
>
> Until computers and the computer hardware and software industry develop
> national and international uniform standards, computers will continue to
> be useful toys. Just look at what a disaster internet radio has become
> with the folding of netradio.com last month. Not to speak of the disaster
> the dispute over royalty pay to announcers and advertising actors has done
> to internet radio. Many broadcasts have pulled content from the internet
> because of the fear of lawsuits, because the actors guild that records the
> advertisements wants to be payed twice on their royalties, once for
> conventional media (radio) and again for being broadcast on the internet.
>
>

Re: linux, and audio.

[Bill Gaughan]

Has anyone tried Beethoven Radio at beethoven.com in linux with lynx using
freeamp or trplayer? Or is there some other program that works under
linux. Th url on radio clicks is
mms://a1400.m.akastream.net/D/1400/602/v0001/reflector:49382

Also, what is an x-ms-asf audio file? Do these work in linux?

I guess not everything on radio clicks will work without having to use
windows now and then. I guess I need two cars, I mean, computers!

-- 
Bill Gaughan
wgaughan@snet.net


On Sun, 25 Nov 2001, A. R. Vener wrote:

> For lynx accessible realaudio radio streams check out:
>
> http://www.virtualtuner.com
> and
> http://pages.sprint.ca/RadioClicks/files/default.htm
>
>
>
>
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> Blinux-list mailing list
> Blinux-list@redhat.com
> https://listman.redhat.com/mailman/listinfo/blinux-list
>

Re: linux, and audio.

[L. C. Robinson]

On Sun, 25 Nov 2001, Bill Gaughan wrote:

> ... And, how come some live365 sites let you have access with
> "trplayer" thru "lynx" and others don't?

I see all too many sites going exclusively with the M$ Windoze
Media Player, with it's ultimate proprietary lock in.  Take
comfort in the fact that M$ has been a consistent failure in it's
efforts to co-opt the internet and it's protocols, and that
they're now, by their own admission, running scared of Linux.  So
vendors and stations will soon wise up, and switch to something
more open (if they survive).

In the meantime, the internet has a vast selection of alternative
sites.  I used to chuckle at the sites that tried to register
you, and even tried to charge fees for access.  Some wannabees
just don't have a clue about the internet, and that includes most
of the old media (ABC, MSNBC, CBS, big newspapers and magazines,
etc) with their carefully filtered news and old media biases
(don't you just love trying to navigate their stupidly designed
sites)?  They are now all bleeding cash heavily, and many are
dying, even as the New Media, exemplified by the leading
www.wnd.com, and the new media sites they link to, prosper (while
the Old Media pretend that that ALL the internet media are
failing with them).

> ...we have simply got to find a way around this "unsupported
> url scheme" message we all get when we try to invoke JavaScript
> in lynx.

The solution of a previous poster (checking the HTML source for
the URL) is maybe the most sensible idea for now.  Automated
solutions will come with time.  And vote with your feet for the
new media sites that have a clue about the internet, and real
content.

> I fear that lynx and maybe linux, will soon be useless to us
> all unless we gain full meaningful and understandable access to
> X-Windows and X applications like Netscape for Linux. I fear
> that, once again, we will be left behind, or forced to stumble
> thru the jumble of MS Windows software products.

There's nothing to worry about there.  This concern comes up from
time to time on this list, among newbies to linux.  You can
consult the list archives for detailed discussions.  I will only
comment that once you understand the Unix philosophy (there are
HOWTOs and FAQs on this), you will understand why text based apps
continue to grow at an astonishing rate, and how much power
exists in this arena (GUI apps can never hope to approach that
level of functionality and power).  Increasing, the GUI apps are
just dumbed down front ends on top of these text and script based
apps, or (often somewhat limited) alternative interfaces added to
them.

> Until computers and the computer hardware and software industry
> develop national and international uniform standards,

You mean, like the development of the internet and Open Source?
<grin>

> computers will continue to be useful toys.

You may realize that M$ OS software has been routinely referred
to as a toy on many expert discussion lists, for some time now,
and for good reason.

> Just look at what a disaster internet radio has become with the
> folding of netradio.com last month. Not to speak of the
> disaster the dispute over royalty pay to announcers and
> advertising actors has done to internet radio. Many broadcasts
> have pulled content from the internet because of the fear of
> lawsuits, because the actors guild that records the
> advertisements wants to be payed twice on their royalties, once
> for conventional media (radio) and again for being broadcast on
> the internet.

Not familar with this.  Sounds like more of the typical problems
with the Old Media paradigm.  Just be patient -- it's becoming
increasingly obvious that there's nothing the old media giants
can do to stop, or even slow the change.  A good example is the
recent discussion here of DRM (basically copy protection), as it
relates to some new accessibility and electronic book standards.
For an excellent discussion of what the old media are up against,
just in the DRM area, in mp3 format, see:

http://www.ima.umn.edu/recordings/Public_Lecture/2000-2001/feb_12_01/schneier-24.mp3

It is about 15 meg, so you may wish to download it at night, if
you don't have a fast connection.  This is a lecture, followed by
discussion, by Bruce Schneier, a world authority in computer
security and cryptology.  This guy has a talent for explaining
complicated issues in terms even ordinary mortals can follow, and
he even manages to make it entertaining much of the time.  If you
want more info in text format, see his site at
http://www.counterpane.com/ (hint, search for "copy protection"
and "snake oil").

Note that we have come full circle here, to the original
question, which was about accessible audio formats: M$ is
promising what it can never deliver to content vendors (nor can
anyone), in terms of DRM.  Eventually even the dumbest of M$
customers (publishers and broadcasters) will get wise to the
scam (well, ok, the survivors anyway).

LCR

-- 
L. C. Robinson
reply to no_spam+munged_lcr@onewest.net.invalid

People buy MicroShaft for compatibility, but get incompatibility and
instability instead.  This is award winning "innovation".  Find
out how MS holds your data hostage with "The *Lens*"; see
"CyberSnare" at http://www.netaction.org/msoft/cybersnare.html

Re: linux, and audio.

[Brent Harding]

Is there a decent sound editor to use in linux?
At 07:14 PM 11/25/01 -0700, you wrote:
>On Sun, 25 Nov 2001, Bill Gaughan wrote:
>
>> ... And, how come some live365 sites let you have access with
>> "trplayer" thru "lynx" and others don't?
>
>I see all too many sites going exclusively with the M$ Windoze
>Media Player, with it's ultimate proprietary lock in.  Take
>comfort in the fact that M$ has been a consistent failure in it's
>efforts to co-opt the internet and it's protocols, and that
>they're now, by their own admission, running scared of Linux.  So
>vendors and stations will soon wise up, and switch to something
>more open (if they survive).
>
>In the meantime, the internet has a vast selection of alternative
>sites.  I used to chuckle at the sites that tried to register
>you, and even tried to charge fees for access.  Some wannabees
>just don't have a clue about the internet, and that includes most
>of the old media (ABC, MSNBC, CBS, big newspapers and magazines,
>etc) with their carefully filtered news and old media biases
>(don't you just love trying to navigate their stupidly designed
>sites)?  They are now all bleeding cash heavily, and many are
>dying, even as the New Media, exemplified by the leading
>www.wnd.com, and the new media sites they link to, prosper (while
>the Old Media pretend that that ALL the internet media are
>failing with them).
>
>> ...we have simply got to find a way around this "unsupported
>> url scheme" message we all get when we try to invoke JavaScript
>> in lynx.
>
>The solution of a previous poster (checking the HTML source for
>the URL) is maybe the most sensible idea for now.  Automated
>solutions will come with time.  And vote with your feet for the
>new media sites that have a clue about the internet, and real
>content.
>
>> I fear that lynx and maybe linux, will soon be useless to us
>> all unless we gain full meaningful and understandable access to
>> X-Windows and X applications like Netscape for Linux. I fear
>> that, once again, we will be left behind, or forced to stumble
>> thru the jumble of MS Windows software products.
>
>There's nothing to worry about there.  This concern comes up from
>time to time on this list, among newbies to linux.  You can
>consult the list archives for detailed discussions.  I will only
>comment that once you understand the Unix philosophy (there are
>HOWTOs and FAQs on this), you will understand why text based apps
>continue to grow at an astonishing rate, and how much power
>exists in this arena (GUI apps can never hope to approach that
>level of functionality and power).  Increasing, the GUI apps are
>just dumbed down front ends on top of these text and script based
>apps, or (often somewhat limited) alternative interfaces added to
>them.
>
>> Until computers and the computer hardware and software industry
>> develop national and international uniform standards,
>
>You mean, like the development of the internet and Open Source?
><grin>
>
>> computers will continue to be useful toys.
>
>You may realize that M$ OS software has been routinely referred
>to as a toy on many expert discussion lists, for some time now,
>and for good reason.
>
>> Just look at what a disaster internet radio has become with the
>> folding of netradio.com last month. Not to speak of the
>> disaster the dispute over royalty pay to announcers and
>> advertising actors has done to internet radio. Many broadcasts
>> have pulled content from the internet because of the fear of
>> lawsuits, because the actors guild that records the
>> advertisements wants to be payed twice on their royalties, once
>> for conventional media (radio) and again for being broadcast on
>> the internet.
>
>Not familar with this.  Sounds like more of the typical problems
>with the Old Media paradigm.  Just be patient -- it's becoming
>increasingly obvious that there's nothing the old media giants
>can do to stop, or even slow the change.  A good example is the
>recent discussion here of DRM (basically copy protection), as it
>relates to some new accessibility and electronic book standards.
>For an excellent discussion of what the old media are up against,
>just in the DRM area, in mp3 format, see:
>
>http://www.ima.umn.edu/recordings/Public_Lecture/2000-2001/feb_12_01/schnei
er-24.mp3
>
>It is about 15 meg, so you may wish to download it at night, if
>you don't have a fast connection.  This is a lecture, followed by
>discussion, by Bruce Schneier, a world authority in computer
>security and cryptology.  This guy has a talent for explaining
>complicated issues in terms even ordinary mortals can follow, and
>he even manages to make it entertaining much of the time.  If you
>want more info in text format, see his site at
>http://www.counterpane.com/ (hint, search for "copy protection"
>and "snake oil").
>
>Note that we have come full circle here, to the original
>question, which was about accessible audio formats: M$ is
>promising what it can never deliver to content vendors (nor can
>anyone), in terms of DRM.  Eventually even the dumbest of M$
>customers (publishers and broadcasters) will get wise to the
>scam (well, ok, the survivors anyway).
>
>LCR
>
>-- 
>L. C. Robinson
>reply to no_spam+munged_lcr@onewest.net.invalid
>
>People buy MicroShaft for compatibility, but get incompatibility and
>instability instead.  This is award winning "innovation".  Find
>out how MS holds your data hostage with "The *Lens*"; see
>"CyberSnare" at http://www.netaction.org/msoft/cybersnare.html
>
>
>
>_______________________________________________
>Blinux-list mailing list
>Blinux-list@redhat.com
>https://listman.redhat.com/mailman/listinfo/blinux-list
>
>

Re: brltty and simultaneous grade 2 translation

[Dave Mielke]

[quoted lines by Bill Gaughan on November 25, 2001, at 15:35]

>Does anyone have plug-in code for the brltty source tree that will hot-key
>simultaneous grade 2 translation of braille on the display while keeping
>the screen as conventional text.

How would you expect it to work? Would you expect it to apply to one line at a
time, to the whole screen (compacting several lines into fewer lines), to a
rectangular region on the screen, or what? What if, due to the number of
"special" characters, a line becomes longer than the screen width? What other
factors to you feel need to be considered? What clever ideas can be "borrowed"
from those who are already providing such a feature? What do others think? What
do those who speak languages other than English think?

-- 
Dave Mielke           | 2213 Fox Crescent | I believe that the Bible is the
Phone: 1-613-726-0014 | Ottawa, Ontario   | Word of God. Please contact me
EMail: dave@mielke.cc | Canada  K2A 1H7   | if you're concerned about Hell.

Re: brltty and simultaneous grade 2 translation

[John J. Boyer]

Dave,
The Grade 2 translation should be on-the-fly and should affect only as much
information as will fit on the display. Translating the whole screen at once
would probably be a bad idea. One way the Grade 2 translator could work
would be to pass it the place where the translation is to begin. It will
then translate as much as will fit on the display and pass back  the place
where it ended. When the user advances the display it would resume where it
left off.
The translation tables should be provided in a form that is easily edited,
so that users can make changes and write tables for new languages. A table
compiler would probably be advisable to preprocess the tables before they
are actually used in translation.
A keystroke on the Braille display can toggle between Grade 2 and the
present display mode.
The table can be "compiled" when BRLTTY starts, or even recompiled
on-the-fly with a special keystroke.
We can do better than Jaws, which doesn't have user-accessible tables.
John

Computers to Help People, Inc.
http://www.chpi.org
825 East Johnson; Madison, WI 53703


----- Original Message -----
From: "Dave Mielke" <dave@mielke.cc>
To: <blinux-list@redhat.com>
Sent: Monday, November 26, 2001 07:00
Subject: Re: brltty and simultaneous grade 2 translation


> [quoted lines by Bill Gaughan on November 25, 2001, at 15:35]
>
> >Does anyone have plug-in code for the brltty source tree that will
hot-key
> >simultaneous grade 2 translation of braille on the display while keeping
> >the screen as conventional text.
>
> How would you expect it to work? Would you expect it to apply to one line
at a
> time, to the whole screen (compacting several lines into fewer lines), to
a
> rectangular region on the screen, or what? What if, due to the number of
> "special" characters, a line becomes longer than the screen width? What
other
> factors to you feel need to be considered? What clever ideas can be
"borrowed"
> from those who are already providing such a feature? What do others think?
What
> do those who speak languages other than English think?
>
> --
> Dave Mielke           | 2213 Fox Crescent | I believe that the Bible is
the
> Phone: 1-613-726-0014 | Ottawa, Ontario   | Word of God. Please contact me
> EMail: dave@mielke.cc | Canada  K2A 1H7   | if you're concerned about
Hell.
>
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> Blinux-list mailing list
> Blinux-list@redhat.com
> https://listman.redhat.com/mailman/listinfo/blinux-list
>

Re: brltty and simultaneous grade 2 translation

[John J. Boyer]

Dave,
I am assuming that brltty would pass a pointer to a position in a string.
The Grade 2 translation routine would then translate until it reached the
end of the string or until it had enough to fill the Braille display. If it
found that the last word would not fit on the display it would backtrack to
the beginning of that word and just leave a few blanks at the end of the
display. In any case, it would pass back a pointer to the place in the input
string where translation should resume, or perhaps an integer count of the
number of characters in the input string that it translated.
If the pointer into the input string indicating where the translation was to
begin happened to be in the middle of a word the translator would just
process the rest of the word, whatever that might turn out to be, instead of
trying to find the beginning of the word and probably producing some nasty
bugs.
I think that cut and paste should simply not be attempted if the Grade 2
translation is on. Brltty should refuse to carry it out and should display a
message asking the user to turn grade 2 translation off.
John

Computers to Help People, Inc.
http://www.chpi.org
825 East Johnson; Madison, WI 53703


----- Original Message -----
From: "Dave Mielke" <dave@mielke.cc>
To: <blinux-list@redhat.com>
Sent: Monday, November 26, 2001 11:44
Subject: Re: brltty and simultaneous grade 2 translation


> [quoted lines by John J. Boyer on November 26, 2001, at 08:49]
>
> Hi:
>
> >The Grade 2 translation should be on-the-fly and should affect only as
much
> >information as will fit on the display.
>
> BRLTTY, of course, would have no way of knowing how much translated data
will
> fit within the braille window. It, therefore, would have to pass in the
whole
> rest of the line starting at the position where the left end of the
braille
> window is.
>
> What about the case where the left end of the braille window starts in the
> middle of a contraction? This shouldn't happen when already in grade 2
mode,
> but might happen when switching into grade 2 mode. I guess it should just
leave
> that little bit at the beginning uncontracted.
>
> There's also the possibility that the end of what'll fit within the
braille
> window won't fit. Should it show the beginning of the contraction/symbol,
or
> leave the end of the window blank?
>
> >Translating the whole screen at once
> >would probably be a bad idea.
>
> I agree, even if simply because it may be a lot of useless work since the
> screen might change by the time te reader gets there.
>
> >One way the Grade 2 translator could work
> >would be to pass it the place where the translation is to begin. It will
> >then translate as much as will fit on the display and pass back  the
place
> >where it ended.
>
> I think it'd have to be screen unaware. I'd like to be able to pass in a
> character string, which would end up being the rest of the current line
from
> the place where the braille window starts. To make cut&paste work
correctly,
> I'd want back the offset into the input string of each character in the
output
> string.
>
> >The translation tables should be provided in a form that is easily
edited,
> >so that users can make changes and write tables for new languages. A
table
> >compiler would probably be advisable to preprocess the tables before they
> >are actually used in translation.
>
> Yes, that'd be a good way to design it. Hopefully the table would be
general
> enough to support languages other than English.
>
> >A keystroke on the Braille display can toggle between Grade 2 and the
> >present display mode.
>
> Agreed.
>
> >The table can be "compiled" when BRLTTY starts, or even recompiled
> >on-the-fly with a special keystroke.
>
> Bewtter yet might be to check the timestamp on the table, and recompile if
it
> changes.
>
> >We can do better than Jaws, which doesn't have user-accessible tables.
>
> Of course!
>
> --
> Dave Mielke           | 2213 Fox Crescent | I believe that the Bible is
the
> Phone: 1-613-726-0014 | Ottawa, Ontario   | Word of God. Please contact me
> EMail: dave@mielke.cc | Canada  K2A 1H7   | if you're concerned about
Hell.
>
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> Blinux-list mailing list
> Blinux-list@redhat.com
> https://listman.redhat.com/mailman/listinfo/blinux-list
>

Re: brltty and simultaneous grade 2 translation

[Dave Mielke]

[quoted lines by John J. Boyer on November 26, 2001, at 08:49]

Hi:

>The Grade 2 translation should be on-the-fly and should affect only as much
>information as will fit on the display.

BRLTTY, of course, would have no way of knowing how much translated data will
fit within the braille window. It, therefore, would have to pass in the whole
rest of the line starting at the position where the left end of the braille
window is.

What about the case where the left end of the braille window starts in the
middle of a contraction? This shouldn't happen when already in grade 2 mode,
but might happen when switching into grade 2 mode. I guess it should just leave
that little bit at the beginning uncontracted.

There's also the possibility that the end of what'll fit within the braille
window won't fit. Should it show the beginning of the contraction/symbol, or
leave the end of the window blank?

>Translating the whole screen at once
>would probably be a bad idea.

I agree, even if simply because it may be a lot of useless work since the
screen might change by the time te reader gets there.

>One way the Grade 2 translator could work
>would be to pass it the place where the translation is to begin. It will
>then translate as much as will fit on the display and pass back  the place
>where it ended.

I think it'd have to be screen unaware. I'd like to be able to pass in a
character string, which would end up being the rest of the current line from
the place where the braille window starts. To make cut&paste work correctly,
I'd want back the offset into the input string of each character in the output
string.

>The translation tables should be provided in a form that is easily edited,
>so that users can make changes and write tables for new languages. A table
>compiler would probably be advisable to preprocess the tables before they
>are actually used in translation.

Yes, that'd be a good way to design it. Hopefully the table would be general
enough to support languages other than English.

>A keystroke on the Braille display can toggle between Grade 2 and the
>present display mode.

Agreed.

>The table can be "compiled" when BRLTTY starts, or even recompiled
>on-the-fly with a special keystroke.

Bewtter yet might be to check the timestamp on the table, and recompile if it
changes.

>We can do better than Jaws, which doesn't have user-accessible tables.

Of course!

-- 
Dave Mielke           | 2213 Fox Crescent | I believe that the Bible is the
Phone: 1-613-726-0014 | Ottawa, Ontario   | Word of God. Please contact me
EMail: dave@mielke.cc | Canada  K2A 1H7   | if you're concerned about Hell.

Re: brltty and simultaneous grade 2 translation

[Dave Mielke]

[quoted lines by John J. Boyer on November 26, 2001, at 11:39]

>I am assuming that brltty would pass a pointer to a position in a string.

I have a thing against null-terminated strings, and would prefer to pass in an
address and a length.

>The Grade 2 translation routine would then translate until it reached the
>end of the string or until it had enough to fill the Braille display.

Yes, although that'd mean that an additional parameter, i.e. an integer set to
the braille window width, would also need to be passed to the translation
routine.

>If it
>found that the last word would not fit on the display it would backtrack to
>the beginning of that word and just leave a few blanks at the end of the
>display.

That's definitely the simplest, most predictable, and least error prone way to
do it.

>In any case, it would pass back a pointer to the place in the input
>string where translation should resume, or perhaps an integer count of the
>number of characters in the input string that it translated.

I'd prefer an integer count. This count should include any trailing blanks.

>If the pointer into the input string indicating where the translation was to
>begin happened to be in the middle of a word the translator would just
>process the rest of the word, whatever that might turn out to be, instead of
>trying to find the beginning of the word and probably producing some nasty
>bugs.

That's certainly a good starting point. If, with it working that way, there are
no complaints, then it'll prove itself to be an adequate solution.

>I think that cut and paste should simply not be attempted if the Grade 2
>translation is on. Brltty should refuse to carry it out and should display a
>message asking the user to turn grade 2 translation off.

I'd sure like it to work, as I dislike denying functionality based on
implementation restrictions. It could easily be made to work if the translation
routine were to pass back an offset into the input string for each character in
the output buffer.

-- 
Dave Mielke           | 2213 Fox Crescent | I believe that the Bible is the
Phone: 1-613-726-0014 | Ottawa, Ontario   | Word of God. Please contact me
EMail: dave@mielke.cc | Canada  K2A 1H7   | if you're concerned about Hell.

Re: brltty and simultaneous grade 2 translation

[John J. Boyer]

Dave,
I prefer a pointer and a length also. I think it would be a good idea to
have a global variable containing the length of the Braille display, so it
wouldn't have to be passed. I can pass back an aray of the position in the
input buffer of each character in the output buffer, but I feel a bit
uncomfortable about doing cut and paste in Grade 2 because Grade 2 isn't 1
for 1. I would probably turn off Grade 2 before doing cut and paste.
Perhaps it would be better if we take this discussion of-list and work out
the programming details and the format of the translation tables between us.
John

Computers to Help People, Inc.
http://www.chpi.org
825 East Johnson; Madison, WI 53703


----- Original Message -----
From: "Dave Mielke" <dave@mielke.cc>
To: <blinux-list@redhat.com>
Sent: Monday, November 26, 2001 12:45
Subject: Re: brltty and simultaneous grade 2 translation


> [quoted lines by John J. Boyer on November 26, 2001, at 11:39]
>
> >I am assuming that brltty would pass a pointer to a position in a string.
>
> I have a thing against null-terminated strings, and would prefer to pass
in an
> address and a length.
>
> >The Grade 2 translation routine would then translate until it reached the
> >end of the string or until it had enough to fill the Braille display.
>
> Yes, although that'd mean that an additional parameter, i.e. an integer
set to
> the braille window width, would also need to be passed to the translation
> routine.
>
> >If it
> >found that the last word would not fit on the display it would backtrack
to
> >the beginning of that word and just leave a few blanks at the end of the
> >display.
>
> That's definitely the simplest, most predictable, and least error prone
way to
> do it.
>
> >In any case, it would pass back a pointer to the place in the input
> >string where translation should resume, or perhaps an integer count of
the
> >number of characters in the input string that it translated.
>
> I'd prefer an integer count. This count should include any trailing
blanks.
>
> >If the pointer into the input string indicating where the translation was
to
> >begin happened to be in the middle of a word the translator would just
> >process the rest of the word, whatever that might turn out to be, instead
of
> >trying to find the beginning of the word and probably producing some
nasty
> >bugs.
>
> That's certainly a good starting point. If, with it working that way,
there are
> no complaints, then it'll prove itself to be an adequate solution.
>
> >I think that cut and paste should simply not be attempted if the Grade 2
> >translation is on. Brltty should refuse to carry it out and should
display a
> >message asking the user to turn grade 2 translation off.
>
> I'd sure like it to work, as I dislike denying functionality based on
> implementation restrictions. It could easily be made to work if the
translation
> routine were to pass back an offset into the input string for each
character in
> the output buffer.
>
> --
> Dave Mielke           | 2213 Fox Crescent | I believe that the Bible is
the
> Phone: 1-613-726-0014 | Ottawa, Ontario   | Word of God. Please contact me
> EMail: dave@mielke.cc | Canada  K2A 1H7   | if you're concerned about
Hell.
>
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> Blinux-list mailing list
> Blinux-list@redhat.com
> https://listman.redhat.com/mailman/listinfo/blinux-list
>

Re: brltty and simultaneous grade 2 translation

[Bill Gaughan]

When how would you accommodate continuous grade two reading of text on a
braille display? I am assuming that if the reader advances the display to
the next text area (40 or 80 characters) then you would get computer
braille again and then have to toggle or switch to grade two braille.

Q. How does the brltty buffer get filled? Say, every time you hit next
page or previous page in pine or hit spacebar in lynx, does it reinit the
buffer and refill it with new text? all I know is that in spb.exe and
jaws, once you toggle grade two braille on, it remains on, until you turn
it off regardless of what you do from the computer keyboard that effect
the cursor or mouse pointer. text always continues to go to the display as
grade two until you turn it off.


-- 
Bill Gaughan
wgaughan@snet.net


On Mon, 26 Nov 2001, Dave Mielke wrote:

> [quoted lines by John J. Boyer on November 26, 2001, at 08:49]
>
> Hi:
>
> >The Grade 2 translation should be on-the-fly and should affect only as much
> >information as will fit on the display.
>
> BRLTTY, of course, would have no way of knowing how much translated data will
> fit within the braille window. It, therefore, would have to pass in the whole
> rest of the line starting at the position where the left end of the braille
> window is.
>
> What about the case where the left end of the braille window starts in the
> middle of a contraction? This shouldn't happen when already in grade 2 mode,
> but might happen when switching into grade 2 mode. I guess it should just leave
> that little bit at the beginning uncontracted.
>
> There's also the possibility that the end of what'll fit within the braille
> window won't fit. Should it show the beginning of the contraction/symbol, or
> leave the end of the window blank?
>
> >Translating the whole screen at once
> >would probably be a bad idea.
>
> I agree, even if simply because it may be a lot of useless work since the
> screen might change by the time te reader gets there.
>
> >One way the Grade 2 translator could work
> >would be to pass it the place where the translation is to begin. It will
> >then translate as much as will fit on the display and pass back  the place
> >where it ended.
>
> I think it'd have to be screen unaware. I'd like to be able to pass in a
> character string, which would end up being the rest of the current line from
> the place where the braille window starts. To make cut&paste work correctly,
> I'd want back the offset into the input string of each character in the output
> string.
>
> >The translation tables should be provided in a form that is easily edited,
> >so that users can make changes and write tables for new languages. A table
> >compiler would probably be advisable to preprocess the tables before they
> >are actually used in translation.
>
> Yes, that'd be a good way to design it. Hopefully the table would be general
> enough to support languages other than English.
>
> >A keystroke on the Braille display can toggle between Grade 2 and the
> >present display mode.
>
> Agreed.
>
> >The table can be "compiled" when BRLTTY starts, or even recompiled
> >on-the-fly with a special keystroke.
>
> Bewtter yet might be to check the timestamp on the table, and recompile if it
> changes.
>
> >We can do better than Jaws, which doesn't have user-accessible tables.
>
> Of course!
>
>

Re: brltty and simultaneous grade 2 translation

[John J. Boyer]

Bill,
I am pretty sure that Jaws also just translates enough to fill the Braille
display. I use Jaws also, and that's my deduction from the way it behaves
and my knowledge of programming.
John

Computers to Help People, Inc.
http://www.chpi.org
825 East Johnson; Madison, WI 53703


----- Original Message -----
From: "Bill Gaughan" <wgaughan@snet.net>
To: <blinux-list@redhat.com>
Sent: Monday, November 26, 2001 13:18
Subject: Re: brltty and simultaneous grade 2 translation


> When how would you accommodate continuous grade two reading of text on a
> braille display? I am assuming that if the reader advances the display to
> the next text area (40 or 80 characters) then you would get computer
> braille again and then have to toggle or switch to grade two braille.
>
> Q. How does the brltty buffer get filled? Say, every time you hit next
> page or previous page in pine or hit spacebar in lynx, does it reinit the
> buffer and refill it with new text? all I know is that in spb.exe and
> jaws, once you toggle grade two braille on, it remains on, until you turn
> it off regardless of what you do from the computer keyboard that effect
> the cursor or mouse pointer. text always continues to go to the display as
> grade two until you turn it off.
>
>
> --
> Bill Gaughan
> wgaughan@snet.net
>
>
> On Mon, 26 Nov 2001, Dave Mielke wrote:
>
> > [quoted lines by John J. Boyer on November 26, 2001, at 08:49]
> >
> > Hi:
> >
> > >The Grade 2 translation should be on-the-fly and should affect only as
much
> > >information as will fit on the display.
> >
> > BRLTTY, of course, would have no way of knowing how much translated data
will
> > fit within the braille window. It, therefore, would have to pass in the
whole
> > rest of the line starting at the position where the left end of the
braille
> > window is.
> >
> > What about the case where the left end of the braille window starts in
the
> > middle of a contraction? This shouldn't happen when already in grade 2
mode,
> > but might happen when switching into grade 2 mode. I guess it should
just leave
> > that little bit at the beginning uncontracted.
> >
> > There's also the possibility that the end of what'll fit within the
braille
> > window won't fit. Should it show the beginning of the
contraction/symbol, or
> > leave the end of the window blank?
> >
> > >Translating the whole screen at once
> > >would probably be a bad idea.
> >
> > I agree, even if simply because it may be a lot of useless work since
the
> > screen might change by the time te reader gets there.
> >
> > >One way the Grade 2 translator could work
> > >would be to pass it the place where the translation is to begin. It
will
> > >then translate as much as will fit on the display and pass back  the
place
> > >where it ended.
> >
> > I think it'd have to be screen unaware. I'd like to be able to pass in a
> > character string, which would end up being the rest of the current line
from
> > the place where the braille window starts. To make cut&paste work
correctly,
> > I'd want back the offset into the input string of each character in the
output
> > string.
> >
> > >The translation tables should be provided in a form that is easily
edited,
> > >so that users can make changes and write tables for new languages. A
table
> > >compiler would probably be advisable to preprocess the tables before
they
> > >are actually used in translation.
> >
> > Yes, that'd be a good way to design it. Hopefully the table would be
general
> > enough to support languages other than English.
> >
> > >A keystroke on the Braille display can toggle between Grade 2 and the
> > >present display mode.
> >
> > Agreed.
> >
> > >The table can be "compiled" when BRLTTY starts, or even recompiled
> > >on-the-fly with a special keystroke.
> >
> > Bewtter yet might be to check the timestamp on the table, and recompile
if it
> > changes.
> >
> > >We can do better than Jaws, which doesn't have user-accessible tables.
> >
> > Of course!
> >
> >
>
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> Blinux-list mailing list
> Blinux-list@redhat.com
> https://listman.redhat.com/mailman/listinfo/blinux-list
>

Re: brltty and simultaneous grade 2 translation

[Nicolas Pitre]

On Mon, 26 Nov 2001, Dave Mielke wrote:

> BRLTTY, of course, would have no way of knowing how much translated data will
> fit within the braille window.

Well... it's certainly possible to loop submitting the original buffer 
containing the whole screen line and 
shrinking it word by word until the translated data fits on the display.


Nicolas

Re: brltty and simultaneous grade 2 translation

[Nicolas Pitre]

On Mon, 26 Nov 2001, Bill Gaughan wrote:

> Q. How does the brltty buffer get filled? Say, every time you hit next
> page or previous page in pine or hit spacebar in lynx, does it reinit the
> buffer and refill it with new text? all I know is that in spb.exe and
> jaws, once you toggle grade two braille on, it remains on, until you turn
> it off regardless of what you do from the computer keyboard that effect
> the cursor or mouse pointer. text always continues to go to the display as
> grade two until you turn it off.

We certainly can do better i.e. translating in real time as you type in a 
test editor for example.  The translation is redone upon each new character 
possibly matching new contractions.


Nicolas

Re: brltty and simultaneous grade 2 translation

[John J. Boyer]

Dave,
This all sounds fine to me. Now about the format of the translation table.
Since we want to accomodate many languages, I think it would be best to put
each rule on a line by itself and to use a simple space between the parts of
the rule. As I see it, each rule would consist of a source string, a space,
the destination string, space, and a number that specifies whether the
source string is a whole word, should be translated only if it is in the
middle of a word, etc. If either the source or destination string includes a
space, we can arrange for an escape sequence. This would be necessary no
matter what separation character we used.
John

Computers to Help People, Inc.
http://www.chpi.org
825 East Johnson; Madison, WI 53703


----- Original Message -----
From: "Dave Mielke" <dave@mielke.cc>
To: <blinux-list@redhat.com>
Sent: Monday, November 26, 2001 14:19
Subject: Re: brltty and simultaneous grade 2 translation


> [quoted lines by John J. Boyer on November 26, 2001, at 13:10]
>
> >I prefer a pointer and a length also. I think it would be a good idea to
> >have a global variable containing the length of the Braille display, so
it
> >wouldn't have to be passed.
>
> I prefer passing it via a parameter so that, should the imagination kick
in, we
> can get more inventive regarding what gets translated when.
>
> >I can pass back an aray of the position in the
> >input buffer of each character in the output buffer, but I feel a bit
> >uncomfortable about doing cut and paste in Grade 2 because Grade 2 isn't
1
> >for 1. I would probably turn off Grade 2 before doing cut and paste.
>
> As long as the array identifies non-first characters of sequences, BRLTTY
could
> easily enforce that only the first character of a sequence can be used
when
> cutting. Better yet, the first character should be used for the start of
the
> selected text, but the last character should be used for the end of the
> selected text. The array, however, need only mark the first character of
each
> sequence, as BRLTTY could easily figure out the rest.
>
> --
> Dave Mielke           | 2213 Fox Crescent | I believe that the Bible is
the
> Phone: 1-613-726-0014 | Ottawa, Ontario   | Word of God. Please contact me
> EMail: dave@mielke.cc | Canada  K2A 1H7   | if you're concerned about
Hell.
>
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> Blinux-list mailing list
> Blinux-list@redhat.com
> https://listman.redhat.com/mailman/listinfo/blinux-list
>

Re: brltty and simultaneous grade 2 translation

[Dave Mielke]

[quoted lines by John J. Boyer on November 26, 2001, at 13:10]

>I prefer a pointer and a length also. I think it would be a good idea to
>have a global variable containing the length of the Braille display, so it
>wouldn't have to be passed.

I prefer passing it via a parameter so that, should the imagination kick in, we
can get more inventive regarding what gets translated when.

>I can pass back an aray of the position in the
>input buffer of each character in the output buffer, but I feel a bit
>uncomfortable about doing cut and paste in Grade 2 because Grade 2 isn't 1
>for 1. I would probably turn off Grade 2 before doing cut and paste.

As long as the array identifies non-first characters of sequences, BRLTTY could
easily enforce that only the first character of a sequence can be used when
cutting. Better yet, the first character should be used for the start of the
selected text, but the last character should be used for the end of the
selected text. The array, however, need only mark the first character of each
sequence, as BRLTTY could easily figure out the rest.

-- 
Dave Mielke           | 2213 Fox Crescent | I believe that the Bible is the
Phone: 1-613-726-0014 | Ottawa, Ontario   | Word of God. Please contact me
EMail: dave@mielke.cc | Canada  K2A 1H7   | if you're concerned about Hell.

Re: brltty and simultaneous grade 2 translation

[Dave Mielke]

[quoted lines by Bill Gaughan on November 26, 2001, at 13:18]

>When how would you accommodate continuous grade two reading of text on a
>braille display? I am assuming that if the reader advances the display to
>the next text area (40 or 80 characters) then you would get computer
>braille again and then have to toggle or switch to grade two braille.

No. We'd stay in grade 2 mode, and translate each time the content of the
braille window changes.

-- 
Dave Mielke           | 2213 Fox Crescent | I believe that the Bible is the
Phone: 1-613-726-0014 | Ottawa, Ontario   | Word of God. Please contact me
EMail: dave@mielke.cc | Canada  K2A 1H7   | if you're concerned about Hell.

Re: brltty and simultaneous grade 2 translation

[John J. Boyer]

Nicolas,
Right. I would certainly like to see real-time translation as one types.
Jaws can do that, and we don't want to be beat by a Windows program!
John

Computers to Help People, Inc.
http://www.chpi.org
825 East Johnson; Madison, WI 53703


----- Original Message -----
From: "Nicolas Pitre" <nico@cam.org>
To: <blinux-list@redhat.com>
Sent: Monday, November 26, 2001 14:08
Subject: Re: brltty and simultaneous grade 2 translation


> On Mon, 26 Nov 2001, Bill Gaughan wrote:
>
> > Q. How does the brltty buffer get filled? Say, every time you hit next
> > page or previous page in pine or hit spacebar in lynx, does it reinit
the
> > buffer and refill it with new text? all I know is that in spb.exe and
> > jaws, once you toggle grade two braille on, it remains on, until you
turn
> > it off regardless of what you do from the computer keyboard that effect
> > the cursor or mouse pointer. text always continues to go to the display
as
> > grade two until you turn it off.
>
> We certainly can do better i.e. translating in real time as you type in a
> test editor for example.  The translation is redone upon each new
character
> possibly matching new contractions.
>
>
> Nicolas
>
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> Blinux-list mailing list
> Blinux-list@redhat.com
> https://listman.redhat.com/mailman/listinfo/blinux-list
>

Re: brltty and simultaneous grade 2 translation

[John J. Boyer]

Dave,
Comments are a good idea. However, any character used as a comment indicator
will present problems, since it could be used in some language. Perhaps the
# could indicate a comment only if it is the very first character in a line
or of it follows the number, separated from it by a space or tab. If a
source string has # as its first character it can be indented a space or
two. That would mean that leading spaces on a line would be ignored.
John

Computers to Help People, Inc.
http://www.chpi.org
825 East Johnson; Madison, WI 53703


----- Original Message -----
From: "Dave Mielke" <dave@mielke.cc>
To: <blinux-list@redhat.com>
Sent: Monday, November 26, 2001 15:16
Subject: Re: brltty and simultaneous grade 2 translation


> [quoted lines by John J. Boyer on November 26, 2001, at 14:12]
>
> >Since we want to accomodate many languages, I think it would be best to
put
> >each rule on a line by itself and to use a simple space between the parts
of
> >the rule.
>
> I think tabs will also need to be supported since some editors insert them
in
> spite of what their users might happen to prefer. :-)
>
> Any number (one or more) of tabs and spaces should be permitted between
each
> part. Blank lines should be skipped. Comments should be supported, and, to
be
> as familiar as possible to Unix users, the # character should initiate a
> comment.
>
> >As I see it, each rule would consist of a source string, a space,
> >the destination string, space, and a number that specifies whether the
> >source string is a whole word, should be translated only if it is in the
> >middle of a word, etc.
>
> This part I'll have to defer to the experts in the field.
>
> >If either the source or destination string includes a
> >space, we can arrange for an escape sequence. This would be necessary no
> >matter what separation character we used.
>
> Agreed. Unix people have a love/hate relationship with the backslash, so
it
> might as well be used.
>
> --
> Dave Mielke           | 2213 Fox Crescent | I believe that the Bible is
the
> Phone: 1-613-726-0014 | Ottawa, Ontario   | Word of God. Please contact me
> EMail: dave@mielke.cc | Canada  K2A 1H7   | if you're concerned about
Hell.
>
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> Blinux-list mailing list
> Blinux-list@redhat.com
> https://listman.redhat.com/mailman/listinfo/blinux-list
>

Re: brltty and simultaneous grade 2 translation

[Dave Mielke]

[quoted lines by John J. Boyer on November 26, 2001, at 14:12]

>Since we want to accomodate many languages, I think it would be best to put
>each rule on a line by itself and to use a simple space between the parts of
>the rule.

I think tabs will also need to be supported since some editors insert them in
spite of what their users might happen to prefer. :-)

Any number (one or more) of tabs and spaces should be permitted between each
part. Blank lines should be skipped. Comments should be supported, and, to be
as familiar as possible to Unix users, the # character should initiate a
comment.

>As I see it, each rule would consist of a source string, a space,
>the destination string, space, and a number that specifies whether the
>source string is a whole word, should be translated only if it is in the
>middle of a word, etc.

This part I'll have to defer to the experts in the field.

>If either the source or destination string includes a
>space, we can arrange for an escape sequence. This would be necessary no
>matter what separation character we used.

Agreed. Unix people have a love/hate relationship with the backslash, so it
might as well be used.

-- 
Dave Mielke           | 2213 Fox Crescent | I believe that the Bible is the
Phone: 1-613-726-0014 | Ottawa, Ontario   | Word of God. Please contact me
EMail: dave@mielke.cc | Canada  K2A 1H7   | if you're concerned about Hell.

Re: brltty and simultaneous grade 2 translation

[Nicolas Pitre]

On Mon, 26 Nov 2001, John J. Boyer wrote:

> Dave,
> This all sounds fine to me. Now about the format of the translation table.
> Since we want to accomodate many languages, I think it would be best to put
> each rule on a line by itself and to use a simple space between the parts of
> the rule. As I see it, each rule would consist of a source string, a space,
> the destination string, space, and a number that specifies whether the
> source string is a whole word, should be translated only if it is in the
> middle of a word, etc. If either the source or destination string includes a
> space, we can arrange for an escape sequence. This would be necessary no
> matter what separation character we used.

First, let me tell you that English braille has a _much_ simpler ruleset 
when it comes to abreviate it than say French.  In French the rules are much 
more convoluted and complex than a simple pattern replacement.

Therefore I suggest having a look at already existing braille 
conversion packages and see if those can be used instead of duplicating 
work.  For one I think nfbtrans might do the job and could be GPL already.


Nicolas

Re: brltty and simultaneous grade 2 translation

[Dave Mielke]

[quoted lines by John J. Boyer on November 26, 2001, at 14:53]

>Comments are a good idea. However, any character used as a comment indicator
>will present problems, since it could be used in some language. Perhaps the
># could indicate a comment only if it is the very first character in a line
>or of it follows the number, separated from it by a space or tab.

Yes, although I think a good modification would be to put the number part of
the rule first. This would add the flexibility of allowing different numbers to
have different sets of operands. There's no great need to support a comment at
the end of a rule line.

>If a
>source string has # as its first character it can be indented a space or
>two. That would mean that leading spaces on a line would be ignored.

That's another reason why putting the number first is better. Leading spaces
should be ignored anyway, since all applications which insist on no indentation
have routinely proven themselves to be rather annoying.

-- 
Dave Mielke           | 2213 Fox Crescent | I believe that the Bible is the
Phone: 1-613-726-0014 | Ottawa, Ontario   | Word of God. Please contact me
EMail: dave@mielke.cc | Canada  K2A 1H7   | if you're concerned about Hell.

Re: brltty and simultaneous grade 2 translation

[Nicolas Pitre]

On Mon, 26 Nov 2001, John J. Boyer wrote:

> Dave,
> Comments are a good idea. However, any character used as a comment indicator
> will present problems, since it could be used in some language. Perhaps the
> # could indicate a comment only if it is the very first character in a line
> or of it follows the number, separated from it by a space or tab. If a
> source string has # as its first character it can be indented a space or
> two. That would mean that leading spaces on a line would be ignored.

I'd suggest supporting a dot pattern representation directly instead of 
relying on ascii correspondance which may well be different from one braille 
table to another, especially for symbols outside of the standard alphabet.


Nicolas

Re: brltty and simultaneous grade 2 translation

[John J. Boyer]

Nicolas,
I'll take a look at nfbtrans and also at the Duxbury table format. I kind of
dooubt that nfbtrans would be very good at supporting languages other than
English.
I like Dave's suggestion of putting the number first in the rules. This
number actually indicates a pattern-matching method. So the algorithm would
be more than a simple pattern replacement. I know French. Where could I find
their Braille code, preferably on the Web?
I think that a direct dot pattern representation would not be as clear as
using the ASCII characters that are used to represent Braille dot patterns
in the particular language. Don't the text-translation tables already take
care of translating to whatever characters a particular display needs to
represent a particular dot pattern. Of course, we might need to have an
escapt sequence for representing non-printing characters, such as \xnn
John


Computers to Help People, Inc.
http://www.chpi.org
825 East Johnson; Madison, WI 53703


----- Original Message -----
From: "Nicolas Pitre" <nico@cam.org>
To: <blinux-list@redhat.com>
Sent: Monday, November 26, 2001 16:13
Subject: Re: brltty and simultaneous grade 2 translation


> On Mon, 26 Nov 2001, John J. Boyer wrote:
>
> > Dave,
> > Comments are a good idea. However, any character used as a comment
indicator
> > will present problems, since it could be used in some language. Perhaps
the
> > # could indicate a comment only if it is the very first character in a
line
> > or of it follows the number, separated from it by a space or tab. If a
> > source string has # as its first character it can be indented a space or
> > two. That would mean that leading spaces on a line would be ignored.
>
> I'd suggest supporting a dot pattern representation directly instead of
> relying on ascii correspondance which may well be different from one
braille
> table to another, especially for symbols outside of the standard alphabet.
>
>
> Nicolas
>
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> Blinux-list mailing list
> Blinux-list@redhat.com
> https://listman.redhat.com/mailman/listinfo/blinux-list
>

Re: brltty and simultaneous grade 2 translation

[Nicolas Pitre]

On Mon, 26 Nov 2001, John J. Boyer wrote:

> I like Dave's suggestion of putting the number first in the rules. This
> number actually indicates a pattern-matching method. So the algorithm would
> be more than a simple pattern replacement. I know French. Where could I find
> their Braille code, preferably on the Web?

Don't know.  I learned compressed French braille a couple years ago.  
Although I still can read it more or less with surrounding context, I fear I
wouldn't be able to write it anymore.  There are the pretty generic rules
which are sensible, but you must also account for the hundreds of ad hoc
rules.

> I think that a direct dot pattern representation would not be as clear as
> using the ASCII characters that are used to represent Braille dot patterns
> in the particular language. Don't the text-translation tables already take
> care of translating to whatever characters a particular display needs to
> represent a particular dot pattern. 

Well... not necessarily.  At least not in French, especially when it comes 
to computer braille.  French braille is quite well defined for 
paper literature, but computer braille is a much random matter, especially 
for non alphabetical characters.  A simple dot "." may translate to 
different dot pattern depending on your taste.  I even got my own braille 
table to use with BRLTTY as I couldn't stand the other available tables 
which seemed not natural to me.

Therefore it would be much simpler, at least for the French braille 
compression, to just tell BRLTTY: replace each "ation" sufix in a word by 
dots 3-4, "ent" sufixes by dot 1-2-6, and so on, since that's actually how 
it is defined for paper document and not fiddle with the current braille 
table for the non translated case.  Still I may wish to read compressed 
English text without having to change my own braille table for something I 
couldn't understand just because the braille compressor was defined with a 
particular braille table in mind.


Nicolas

Re: brltty and simultaneous grade 2 translation

[John J. Boyer]

Nicolas,
I see your point about specifying actual dot patterns. Perhaps the
translation table could be set up to allow both dot patterns and ASCII.
I'll try to find the French Braille code. It looks like a good test case.
It turns out that the format of the translation tables in nfbtrans is
similar to the one we have been discussing: number (pattern matching
method), source string, replacement string. However, nfbtrans appears to be
the product of many hands, with bits and pieces added from time. It is also
very inefficiently coded, with redundant if statements. Considering my
experience in program maintenance and in writing translators for other
purposes, I think it would probably be less time-consuming to just start
from scratch. Though I wouldn't actually be starting from scratch, because I
already have a translating routine that might be modifiable.
John

Computers to Help People, Inc.
http://www.chpi.org
825 East Johnson; Madison, WI 53703


----- Original Message -----
From: "Nicolas Pitre" <nico@cam.org>
To: <blinux-list@redhat.com>
Sent: Monday, November 26, 2001 18:09
Subject: Re: brltty and simultaneous grade 2 translation


> On Mon, 26 Nov 2001, John J. Boyer wrote:
>
> > I like Dave's suggestion of putting the number first in the rules. This
> > number actually indicates a pattern-matching method. So the algorithm
would
> > be more than a simple pattern replacement. I know French. Where could I
find
> > their Braille code, preferably on the Web?
>
> Don't know.  I learned compressed French braille a couple years ago.
> Although I still can read it more or less with surrounding context, I fear
I
> wouldn't be able to write it anymore.  There are the pretty generic rules
> which are sensible, but you must also account for the hundreds of ad hoc
> rules.
>
> > I think that a direct dot pattern representation would not be as clear
as
> > using the ASCII characters that are used to represent Braille dot
patterns
> > in the particular language. Don't the text-translation tables already
take
> > care of translating to whatever characters a particular display needs to
> > represent a particular dot pattern.
>
> Well... not necessarily.  At least not in French, especially when it comes
> to computer braille.  French braille is quite well defined for
> paper literature, but computer braille is a much random matter, especially
> for non alphabetical characters.  A simple dot "." may translate to
> different dot pattern depending on your taste.  I even got my own braille
> table to use with BRLTTY as I couldn't stand the other available tables
> which seemed not natural to me.
>
> Therefore it would be much simpler, at least for the French braille
> compression, to just tell BRLTTY: replace each "ation" sufix in a word by
> dots 3-4, "ent" sufixes by dot 1-2-6, and so on, since that's actually how
> it is defined for paper document and not fiddle with the current braille
> table for the non translated case.  Still I may wish to read compressed
> English text without having to change my own braille table for something I
> couldn't understand just because the braille compressor was defined with a
> particular braille table in mind.
>
>
> Nicolas
>
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> Blinux-list mailing list
> Blinux-list@redhat.com
> https://listman.redhat.com/mailman/listinfo/blinux-list
>

Re: brltty and simultaneous grade 2 translation

[John J. Boyer]

Bill,
I'm working on the translation algorithm and hope to start coding soon. I'll
keep you in mind for a Beta Tester.
What Linux distribution are you using? I'm still having trouble with my
Redhat 7.1 installation. After a while the Braille display begins to behave
strangely. It's not a brltty problem but due to something in my system.
Thanks.
John

Computers to Help People, Inc.
http://www.chpi.org
825 East Johnson; Madison, WI 53703


----- Original Message -----
From: "Bill Gaughan" <wgaughan@snet.net>
To: <blinux-list@redhat.com>
Sent: Tuesday, November 27, 2001 17:06
Subject: Re: brltty and simultaneous grade 2 translation


>
> Sounds good to me, guys. John and Dave seem to be the expert
> programmers in this area. I am sure glad I started a discussion on
> this topic. I can see that it is a familiar topic that has been
> discussed before. Any time you guys want me to pre-beta test sample code,
> let me know. I have a PowerBraille 40.
>
>
> --
> Bill Gaughan
> wgaughan@snet.net
>
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> Blinux-list mailing list
> Blinux-list@redhat.com
> https://listman.redhat.com/mailman/listinfo/blinux-list
>

Re: brltty and simultaneous grade 2 translation

[Bill Gaughan]

Sounds good to me, guys. John and Dave seem to be the expert
programmers in this area. I am sure glad I started a discussion on
this topic. I can see that it is a familiar topic that has been
discussed before. Any time you guys want me to pre-beta test sample code,
let me know. I have a PowerBraille 40.


-- 
Bill Gaughan
wgaughan@snet.net

RE: brltty and simultaneous grade 2 translation

[Ian Blackburn]

Hi again 

in outspoken from Alva Access Group for windows once you put grade two
translation on it stays on till you toggle it off again.  the only exception
jis the word under the editing cursor. this word is not translated.  

> ----------
> From: 	Bill Gaughan[SMTP:wgaughan@snet.net]
> Reply To: 	blinux-list@redhat.com
> Sent: 	Tuesday, 27 November 2001 2:18
> To: 	blinux-list@redhat.com
> Subject: 	Re: brltty and simultaneous grade 2 translation
> 
> When how would you accommodate continuous grade two reading of text on a
> braille display? I am assuming that if the reader advances the display to
> the next text area (40 or 80 characters) then you would get computer
> braille again and then have to toggle or switch to grade two braille.
> 
> Q. How does the brltty buffer get filled? Say, every time you hit next
> page or previous page in pine or hit spacebar in lynx, does it reinit the
> buffer and refill it with new text? all I know is that in spb.exe and
> jaws, once you toggle grade two braille on, it remains on, until you turn
> it off regardless of what you do from the computer keyboard that effect
> the cursor or mouse pointer. text always continues to go to the display as
> grade two until you turn it off.
> 
> 
> -- 
> Bill Gaughan
> wgaughan@snet.net
> 
> 
> On Mon, 26 Nov 2001, Dave Mielke wrote:
> 
> > [quoted lines by John J. Boyer on November 26, 2001, at 08:49]
> >
> > Hi:
> >
> > >The Grade 2 translation should be on-the-fly and should affect only as
> much
> > >information as will fit on the display.
> >
> > BRLTTY, of course, would have no way of knowing how much translated data
> will
> > fit within the braille window. It, therefore, would have to pass in the
> whole
> > rest of the line starting at the position where the left end of the
> braille
> > window is.
> >
> > What about the case where the left end of the braille window starts in
> the
> > middle of a contraction? This shouldn't happen when already in grade 2
> mode,
> > but might happen when switching into grade 2 mode. I guess it should
> just leave
> > that little bit at the beginning uncontracted.
> >
> > There's also the possibility that the end of what'll fit within the
> braille
> > window won't fit. Should it show the beginning of the
> contraction/symbol, or
> > leave the end of the window blank?
> >
> > >Translating the whole screen at once
> > >would probably be a bad idea.
> >
> > I agree, even if simply because it may be a lot of useless work since
> the
> > screen might change by the time te reader gets there.
> >
> > >One way the Grade 2 translator could work
> > >would be to pass it the place where the translation is to begin. It
> will
> > >then translate as much as will fit on the display and pass back  the
> place
> > >where it ended.
> >
> > I think it'd have to be screen unaware. I'd like to be able to pass in a
> > character string, which would end up being the rest of the current line
> from
> > the place where the braille window starts. To make cut&paste work
> correctly,
> > I'd want back the offset into the input string of each character in the
> output
> > string.
> >
> > >The translation tables should be provided in a form that is easily
> edited,
> > >so that users can make changes and write tables for new languages. A
> table
> > >compiler would probably be advisable to preprocess the tables before
> they
> > >are actually used in translation.
> >
> > Yes, that'd be a good way to design it. Hopefully the table would be
> general
> > enough to support languages other than English.
> >
> > >A keystroke on the Braille display can toggle between Grade 2 and the
> > >present display mode.
> >
> > Agreed.
> >
> > >The table can be "compiled" when BRLTTY starts, or even recompiled
> > >on-the-fly with a special keystroke.
> >
> > Bewtter yet might be to check the timestamp on the table, and recompile
> if it
> > changes.
> >
> > >We can do better than Jaws, which doesn't have user-accessible tables.
> >
> > Of course!
> >
> >
> 
> 
> 
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> Blinux-list@redhat.com
> https://listman.redhat.com/mailman/listinfo/blinux-list
> 


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