Re: income tax online

Re: income tax online

[Martin McCormick]

	I am not defending all the inaccessible web sites at all,
but the problem these days is that the web developers themselves
don't sit around and write html with text editors like one can do
if necessary.  They are using commercial web authoring engines
which are full of mystery meat software and proprietary code
aimed at either Netscape or Internet Explorer.

	The developers of the actual web sites don't seem to know
what went in to their actual page, only that it looks a certain
way on this or that browser.

	I am trying to figure out what it will take to get
javascript support for lynx, but I haven't really even begun to
start actually solving the problem.  I am still thinking and
planning.

	While this discussion is technically off-topic for this
list, it does deal with the technology needed to use the web and
the problems we have.

	In brief, I have had no luck at all in getting any real
change on a system-wide basis even where I work.  Our web sites
are all built with Lotus Domino and they are junk as far as lynx
goes.  Netrik will read the first page, but you can't really do
anything yet with netrik so it is a neat concept car, but it
doesn't get me to the store today.

	I had a brief correspondence with Mindleaders.com last
year. They clame accessibility to their site for screen readers.
If the screen reader is named JAWS, and your browser is from
Microsoft, maybe so.  If it is lynx and you use Linux, forget it
for now.  You can't even log in.

	Here is my final question.  Is something considered
accessible if it is only accessible through JAWS?

	As for the javascript for lynx, I got the mozilla
distribution and am going to see if there is any Earthly way to
use the javascript rendering engine in a text-based environment.
It's gonna' be a long hard fight.

	Right now, as far as I know, we simply don't have any way
to work these javascript-run sites in UNIX.

	Maybe I should first try to get lynx to gracefully handle
relative links because a large number of sites would work if not
for that.

	As usual, the possibilities are exciting, but the current
reality is frustrating.

Martin McCormick

Re: income tax online

[Janina Sajka]

Martin:

Thank you for your willingness to take on development effort. I am responding to clear up a non technical point, or rather one that has nothing to do
with technology, but everything to do with the law.

Under Section 508, the U.S. Government does not get off the hook because some authoring tool doesn't support accessibility. And, in AFB's view, when it
comes to U.S. Government information systems intended for use by the public, it doesn't suffice that it works with only a particular piece of
proprietary anything. It must, in our reading of the law, support the public, not some particular technology.

In all honesty, I think a great part of the problem is that too many of the responsible officials define testing and cross-platform to mean "it works
with Windows 95, 98, ME, 2000, and XP, so we're OK." While I expect Microsoft might like this definition of cross-platform, it is not the definition I
learned in school, and it is not the definition that we should accept.

In  the end, the government is on the hook to deliver. Whatever any technology provider claims or delivers, it's the government agencies that can be
sued for noncompliance. The first step is the complaint. Filing complaints is meaningful.


On Fri, 12 Apr 2002, Martin McCormick wrote:


> 	I am not defending all the inaccessible web sites at all,
> but the problem these days is that the web developers themselves
> don't sit around and write html with text editors like one can do
> if necessary.  They are using commercial web authoring engines
> which are full of mystery meat software and proprietary code
> aimed at either Netscape or Internet Explorer.
> 
> 	The developers of the actual web sites don't seem to know
> what went in to their actual page, only that it looks a certain
> way on this or that browser.
> 
> 	I am trying to figure out what it will take to get
> javascript support for lynx, but I haven't really even begun to
> start actually solving the problem.  I am still thinking and
> planning.
> 
> 	While this discussion is technically off-topic for this
> list, it does deal with the technology needed to use the web and
> the problems we have.
> 
> 	In brief, I have had no luck at all in getting any real
> change on a system-wide basis even where I work.  Our web sites
> are all built with Lotus Domino and they are junk as far as lynx
> goes.  Netrik will read the first page, but you can't really do
> anything yet with netrik so it is a neat concept car, but it
> doesn't get me to the store today.
> 
> 	I had a brief correspondence with Mindleaders.com last
> year. They clame accessibility to their site for screen readers.
> If the screen reader is named JAWS, and your browser is from
> Microsoft, maybe so.  If it is lynx and you use Linux, forget it
> for now.  You can't even log in.
> 
> 	Here is my final question.  Is something considered
> accessible if it is only accessible through JAWS?
> 
> 	As for the javascript for lynx, I got the mozilla
> distribution and am going to see if there is any Earthly way to
> use the javascript rendering engine in a text-based environment.
> It's gonna' be a long hard fight.
> 
> 	Right now, as far as I know, we simply don't have any way
> to work these javascript-run sites in UNIX.
> 
> 	Maybe I should first try to get lynx to gracefully handle
> relative links because a large number of sites would work if not
> for that.
> 
> 	As usual, the possibilities are exciting, but the current
> reality is frustrating.
> 
> Martin McCormick
> 
> 
> 
> _______________________________________________
> Blinux-list mailing list
> Blinux-list@redhat.com
> https://listman.redhat.com/mailman/listinfo/blinux-list
> 

-- 
	
				Janina Sajka, Director
				Technology Research and Development
				Governmental Relations Group
				American Foundation for the Blind (AFB)

Email: janina@afb.net		Phone: (202) 408-8175

Chair, Accessibility SIG
Open Electronic Book Forum (OEBF)
http://www.openebook.org

Re: income tax online

[John J. Boyer]

Hello,
Janina has very good points about the law. However, I would like to ask
a more technical question. I'm trying to get involved with Gnome
accessibility. How will the development of such accessibility and the
consequent ability to use Mozilla or Netscape, affect the accessibility
of Web sites in general?
Thanks.
John
On Fri, 12 Apr 2002, Janina Sajka wrote:

> Martin:
>
> Thank you for your willingness to take on development effort. I am responding to clear up a non technical point, or rather one that has nothing to do
> with technology, but everything to do with the law.
>
> Under Section 508, the U.S. Government does not get off the hook because some authoring tool doesn't support accessibility. And, in AFB's view, when it
> comes to U.S. Government information systems intended for use by the public, it doesn't suffice that it works with only a particular piece of
> proprietary anything. It must, in our reading of the law, support the public, not some particular technology.
>
> In all honesty, I think a great part of the problem is that too many of the responsible officials define testing and cross-platform to mean "it works
> with Windows 95, 98, ME, 2000, and XP, so we're OK." While I expect Microsoft might like this definition of cross-platform, it is not the definition I
> learned in school, and it is not the definition that we should accept.
>
> In  the end, the government is on the hook to deliver. Whatever any technology provider claims or delivers, it's the government agencies that can be
> sued for noncompliance. The first step is the complaint. Filing complaints is meaningful.
>
>
> On Fri, 12 Apr 2002, Martin McCormick wrote:
>
>
> > 	I am not defending all the inaccessible web sites at all,
> > but the problem these days is that the web developers themselves
> > don't sit around and write html with text editors like one can do
> > if necessary.  They are using commercial web authoring engines
> > which are full of mystery meat software and proprietary code
> > aimed at either Netscape or Internet Explorer.
> >
> > 	The developers of the actual web sites don't seem to know
> > what went in to their actual page, only that it looks a certain
> > way on this or that browser.
> >
> > 	I am trying to figure out what it will take to get
> > javascript support for lynx, but I haven't really even begun to
> > start actually solving the problem.  I am still thinking and
> > planning.
> >
> > 	While this discussion is technically off-topic for this
> > list, it does deal with the technology needed to use the web and
> > the problems we have.
> >
> > 	In brief, I have had no luck at all in getting any real
> > change on a system-wide basis even where I work.  Our web sites
> > are all built with Lotus Domino and they are junk as far as lynx
> > goes.  Netrik will read the first page, but you can't really do
> > anything yet with netrik so it is a neat concept car, but it
> > doesn't get me to the store today.
> >
> > 	I had a brief correspondence with Mindleaders.com last
> > year. They clame accessibility to their site for screen readers.
> > If the screen reader is named JAWS, and your browser is from
> > Microsoft, maybe so.  If it is lynx and you use Linux, forget it
> > for now.  You can't even log in.
> >
> > 	Here is my final question.  Is something considered
> > accessible if it is only accessible through JAWS?
> >
> > 	As for the javascript for lynx, I got the mozilla
> > distribution and am going to see if there is any Earthly way to
> > use the javascript rendering engine in a text-based environment.
> > It's gonna' be a long hard fight.
> >
> > 	Right now, as far as I know, we simply don't have any way
> > to work these javascript-run sites in UNIX.
> >
> > 	Maybe I should first try to get lynx to gracefully handle
> > relative links because a large number of sites would work if not
> > for that.
> >
> > 	As usual, the possibilities are exciting, but the current
> > reality is frustrating.
> >
> > Martin McCormick
> >
> >
> >
> > _______________________________________________
> > Blinux-list mailing list
> > Blinux-list@redhat.com
> > https://listman.redhat.com/mailman/listinfo/blinux-list
> >
>
>

-- 
Computers to Help People, Inc.
http://www.chpi.org
825 East Johnson; Madison, WI 53703

Re: income tax online

[David Poehlman]

web sites will still have to follow conventional and approved methods of
content development and delivery.  Even if you have a talking desktop or
mozilla, the images for instance still need to be alted and the frames
will still need titles as well as applettes needing to be coded right
and js functionality be textually available and so on.

----- Original Message -----
From: "John J. Boyer" <director@chpi.org>
To: <blinux-list@redhat.com>
Sent: Friday, April 12, 2002 12:22 PM
Subject: Re: income tax online


Hello,
Janina has very good points about the law. However, I would like to ask
a more technical question. I'm trying to get involved with Gnome
accessibility. How will the development of such accessibility and the
consequent ability to use Mozilla or Netscape, affect the accessibility
of Web sites in general?
Thanks.
John
On Fri, 12 Apr 2002, Janina Sajka wrote:

> Martin:
>
> Thank you for your willingness to take on development effort. I am
responding to clear up a non technical point, or rather one that has
nothing to do
> with technology, but everything to do with the law.
>
> Under Section 508, the U.S. Government does not get off the hook
because some authoring tool doesn't support accessibility. And, in AFB's
view, when it
> comes to U.S. Government information systems intended for use by the
public, it doesn't suffice that it works with only a particular piece of
> proprietary anything. It must, in our reading of the law, support the
public, not some particular technology.
>
> In all honesty, I think a great part of the problem is that too many
of the responsible officials define testing and cross-platform to mean
"it works
> with Windows 95, 98, ME, 2000, and XP, so we're OK." While I expect
Microsoft might like this definition of cross-platform, it is not the
definition I
> learned in school, and it is not the definition that we should accept.
>
> In  the end, the government is on the hook to deliver. Whatever any
technology provider claims or delivers, it's the government agencies
that can be
> sued for noncompliance. The first step is the complaint. Filing
complaints is meaningful.
>
>
> On Fri, 12 Apr 2002, Martin McCormick wrote:
>
>
> > I am not defending all the inaccessible web sites at all,
> > but the problem these days is that the web developers themselves
> > don't sit around and write html with text editors like one can do
> > if necessary.  They are using commercial web authoring engines
> > which are full of mystery meat software and proprietary code
> > aimed at either Netscape or Internet Explorer.
> >
> > The developers of the actual web sites don't seem to know
> > what went in to their actual page, only that it looks a certain
> > way on this or that browser.
> >
> > I am trying to figure out what it will take to get
> > javascript support for lynx, but I haven't really even begun to
> > start actually solving the problem.  I am still thinking and
> > planning.
> >
> > While this discussion is technically off-topic for this
> > list, it does deal with the technology needed to use the web and
> > the problems we have.
> >
> > In brief, I have had no luck at all in getting any real
> > change on a system-wide basis even where I work.  Our web sites
> > are all built with Lotus Domino and they are junk as far as lynx
> > goes.  Netrik will read the first page, but you can't really do
> > anything yet with netrik so it is a neat concept car, but it
> > doesn't get me to the store today.
> >
> > I had a brief correspondence with Mindleaders.com last
> > year. They clame accessibility to their site for screen readers.
> > If the screen reader is named JAWS, and your browser is from
> > Microsoft, maybe so.  If it is lynx and you use Linux, forget it
> > for now.  You can't even log in.
> >
> > Here is my final question.  Is something considered
> > accessible if it is only accessible through JAWS?
> >
> > As for the javascript for lynx, I got the mozilla
> > distribution and am going to see if there is any Earthly way to
> > use the javascript rendering engine in a text-based environment.
> > It's gonna' be a long hard fight.
> >
> > Right now, as far as I know, we simply don't have any way
> > to work these javascript-run sites in UNIX.
> >
> > Maybe I should first try to get lynx to gracefully handle
> > relative links because a large number of sites would work if not
> > for that.
> >
> > As usual, the possibilities are exciting, but the current
> > reality is frustrating.
> >
> > Martin McCormick
> >
> >
> >
> > _______________________________________________
> > Blinux-list mailing list
> > Blinux-list@redhat.com
> > https://listman.redhat.com/mailman/listinfo/blinux-list
> >
>
>

--
Computers to Help People, Inc.
http://www.chpi.org
825 East Johnson; Madison, WI 53703




_______________________________________________
Blinux-list mailing list
Blinux-list@redhat.com
https://listman.redhat.com/mailman/listinfo/blinux-list

Re: income tax online

[Cheryl Homiak]

Hi Janina and all.
Thanks for the details. I too will file a complaint.

Re: income tax online

[Janina Sajka]

Yes, I think I saw the same problem you ran into. In selecting any one of the providers they list you are first taken to adisclaimer page that says, in
far too many words and under far too many navbar links, "you're now leaving the IRS site." Link #30 is the actual link to continue, labeled something
like "Yes, I really do want to leave the IRS site." It is written with jsp syntax, so breaks in lynx. Why did they use jsp? It seems so that they can
track that you really did mean to leave, itself a disturbing bit of data collection. When this scriptlet breaks, you get an error page that says
essentially "an error occurred. If this problem persists, please report it" and offers a link for reporting (also link #30).

I followed that link and wrote the following:

>From janina@afb.net Wed Apr 10 12:56:47 2002
From: janina@afb.net


Hello:

Please remove jsp from your redirects. This blocks users with browsers that do not support jsp, or who do not wish to use it, from the benefits of the links you provide. Please note that we at the American Foundation for the Blind would consider this a Section 508 violation, so I would appreciate a direct and substantive response to this note.

>From a technical perspective, you don't need jsp to achieve the purpose of redirecting, so it shouldn't be mandatory. And, it does impede access by those of us using open source tools on linux.

                                                                                 Internal Revenue Service The Digital Daily
>       [1]Skip past Top Nav Bar [2]Home |   [3]Tax Stats  |   [4]About IRS  |   [5]Careers  |   [6]FOIA  |   [7]The Newsroom  |   [8]Accessibility  |
>                                                         [9]Site Map  |   [10]Español  |   [11]Help
>
>   Search
>       [12]______________ [13]Go
>   Forms Finder
>       [14]______________ [15]Go
>         [16]Search Help
>                              Contents
>   [17]Skip past Left Nav Bar
>   [18]Individuals
>   [19]Businesses
>   [20]Charities & Non-Profits
>   [21]Government Entities
>   [22]Tax Professionals
>   [23]Retirement Plans
>   Resources
>   [24]e-file
>   [25]Forms and Publications
>   [26]Where to File
>   [27]Contact My Local Office
>   [28]FAQs
>   [29]Taxpayer Advocate
>
>
>                                                                     Error Notification
>
>
>                               An error occurred. Please contact the [30]site administrator if this error condition persists.
>
>                                            [31]IRS Privacy and Security Policy | [32]Contact Us | ©2001 IRS.gov


On Wed, 10 Apr 2002, Cheryl Homiak wrote:

> Hi Janina.
> Where did you file your section 508 complaint?
> I suspect the answer you will get will partly have to do with the providers not
> being their responsibility, but the site certainly is. On most of my tries, I
> got errors just trying to leave the site after reading the irs disclaimer.
> 
> 
> 
> _______________________________________________
> Blinux-list mailing list
> Blinux-list@redhat.com
> https://listman.redhat.com/mailman/listinfo/blinux-list
> 

-- 
	
				Janina Sajka, Director
				Technology Research and Development
				Governmental Relations Group
				American Foundation for the Blind (AFB)

Email: janina@afb.net		Phone: (202) 408-8175

Chair, Accessibility SIG
Open Electronic Book Forum (OEBF)
http://www.openebook.org

Re: income tax online

[Cheryl Homiak]

Hi Janina.
Where did you file your section 508 complaint?
I suspect the answer you will get will partly have to do with the providers not
being their responsibility, but the site certainly is. On most of my tries, I
got errors just trying to leave the site after reading the irs disclaimer.

Re: income tax online

[Janina Sajka]

I just learned that looking at them isn't trivial. They involve redirects that are jsp based. So, I just filed my Section 508 complaint on the subject.
I'll report on the answer I get. 

On Wed, 10 Apr 2002, Cheryl Homiak wrote:

> Yes, a web-based provider was what I was looking for and i looked at these, but
> i'll go through them again just to be sure.
> Thanks.
> 
> 
> 
> _______________________________________________
> Blinux-list mailing list
> Blinux-list@redhat.com
> https://listman.redhat.com/mailman/listinfo/blinux-list
> 

-- 
	
				Janina Sajka, Director
				Technology Research and Development
				Governmental Relations Group
				American Foundation for the Blind (AFB)

Email: janina@afb.net		Phone: (202) 408-8175

Chair, Accessibility SIG
Open Electronic Book Forum (OEBF)
http://www.openebook.org

Re: income tax online

[Cheryl Homiak]

Yes, a web-based provider was what I was looking for and i looked at these, but
i'll go through them again just to be sure.
Thanks.

Re: income tax online

[Janina Sajka]

Have you looked through the list of online providers on the IRS Home Page?

http://www.irs.gov/efile/display/0,,i1%3D51%26genericId%3D10124,00.html


My guess is that the best bet would be a web based provider.

If you don't find one, please consider filing a Section 508 complaint with the IRS.

On Wed, 10 Apr 2002, Cheryl Homiak wrote:

> Hi all!
> Has anybody found an income tax site that can be used with lynx and linux. I've
> tried a couple and gotten to the login and been unable to use them. I'm
> scheduled to go somewhere late this afternoon to get them done, but I have
> nobody to care for my daughter. She has severe developmental disabilities and if
> she has problems we might not be able to go or might have trouble in case of a
> long wait for help. I'd really rather do them right here at home if I could find
> a workable site.
> TIA.
> 
> 
> 
> _______________________________________________
> Blinux-list mailing list
> Blinux-list@redhat.com
> https://listman.redhat.com/mailman/listinfo/blinux-list
> 

-- 
	
				Janina Sajka, Director
				Technology Research and Development
				Governmental Relations Group
				American Foundation for the Blind (AFB)

Email: janina@afb.net		Phone: (202) 408-8175

Chair, Accessibility SIG
Open Electronic Book Forum (OEBF)
http://www.openebook.org

income tax online

[Cheryl Homiak]

Hi all!
Has anybody found an income tax site that can be used with lynx and linux. I've
tried a couple and gotten to the login and been unable to use them. I'm
scheduled to go somewhere late this afternoon to get them done, but I have
nobody to care for my daughter. She has severe developmental disabilities and if
she has problems we might not be able to go or might have trouble in case of a
long wait for help. I'd really rather do them right here at home if I could find
a workable site.
TIA.