Re: The growing accessibility gap: was Ameritech.net

Re: The growing accessibility gap: was Ameritech.net

[blindguy13]

Quiet your bitching. The probleum is linux. I use it a little and use
windows a lot things with it are a lot more accessible. If you love
editing your configeration files so mutch then stay with linux and create
your own access bridge sun didn't have to put that out for windows. Html
is accessible with internet explorer through jaws, window eyes or what
ever else you want to use. As for microsoft I know a tech guy who will
bend over backwords to help out with accessibility and in there new
visual net relies msaa will be built in to a lot larger extent. Don't
bitch at other compinies when if you carred so mutch you could write the
damn program to read java your self try working with the accessibility
people at sun althoe with an attitude like yours trying to blame
everything on big compinies they won't want to work with you it is the
small programs I have found are the bigger probleums not the larger ones
thats why I am using windows to write this message because it is
accessible.
________________________________________________________________
GET INTERNET ACCESS FROM JUNO!
Juno offers FREE or PREMIUM Internet access for less!
Join Juno today!  For your FREE software, visit:
http://dl.www.juno.com/get/tagj.

Re: The growing accessibility gap: was Ameritech.net

[Joseph Carter]

[-- Attachment #1: Type: text/plain, Size: 565 bytes --]

On Fri, Sep 07, 2001 at 06:14:39PM -0400, blindguy13@juno.com wrote:
> Quiet your bitching. The probleum is linux. I use it a little and use
[..]

With an attitude like that, what the hell are you doing in a forum for
Linux accessability?  Troll elsewhere.

-- 
Joseph Carter <knghtbrd@debian.org>                 Free software developer

<hop> when you start making only stupid mistakes that are obvious, thats
      when you start getting competent
<hop> because you don't make fundamental misunderstanding mistakes
<hop> and thats a *good* sign.


[-- Attachment #2: Type: application/pgp-signature, Size: 273 bytes --]

Re: The growing accessibility gap: was Ameritech.net

[Jude DaShiell]

The command line interface does not cause me any problems, it's that other
junk that makes life hell.  So far as bitching is concerned, you haven't
yet heard me bitch.  All I did was to state some widely known and accepted
axioms which are axiomatic since they're so easily proven.  Were you
correct in your statements, the Council Of Agencies Serving the blind
would not have contemplated taking Microsoft to court in January of 1995.
As it was, certain agreements were reached that seemingly alleviated the
necessity for litigation.

Jude <jdashiel@shellworld.net>

Re: The growing accessibility gap: was Ameritech.net

[Jared]

If the command line is so grate write me or help write me a mass market
application that cells to millions of coppies. You can't because you can't
use the g u i interface in linux like you can in windows. So you will have
to write in general smaller market programs if you wish to do that for a
job. I on the other hand because I'm not thick headed can write G U I
applications with vb or any number of other tools. As for your comment to
Mr. Toneby what about the people who tryed to make linux a more user
friendly opperaiting system generated a G U I so they generated code that
turned to inaccessible garbige for you so they are just as mutch at fault as
sun. A large part of microsoft is that the windows 3.1 was not around for a
long enough time for standerds to devolipe. They may have been responcible
for the inaccessibility in the past but now they are making an effort to
change that tell me is there anyone trying in the linux community cort or no
cort trying to make a screen reader for the G U I part of linux? If so
please send me email so I can try and help but don't complain about
microsoft when people arn't working to help your beloved oh so accessible
linux.
----- Original Message -----
From: "Jude DaShiell" <jdashiel@shellworld.net>
To: <blinux-list@redhat.com>
Sent: Friday, September 07, 2001 9:35 PM
Subject: Re: The growing accessibility gap: was Ameritech.net


> The command line interface does not cause me any problems, it's that other
> junk that makes life hell.  So far as bitching is concerned, you haven't
> yet heard me bitch.  All I did was to state some widely known and accepted
> axioms which are axiomatic since they're so easily proven.  Were you
> correct in your statements, the Council Of Agencies Serving the blind
> would not have contemplated taking Microsoft to court in January of 1995.
> As it was, certain agreements were reached that seemingly alleviated the
> necessity for litigation.
>
> Jude <jdashiel@shellworld.net>
>
>
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> Blinux-list mailing list
> Blinux-list@redhat.com
> https://listman.redhat.com/mailman/listinfo/blinux-list


_________________________________________________________
Do You Yahoo!?
Get your free @yahoo.com address at http://mail.yahoo.com

Re: The growing accessibility gap: was Ameritech.net

[Jude DaShiell]

Who told you I was about to do anything job-related with Linux?  Yes,
winhose is a work requirement for me.  Yes I do use winhose.  But just
because those two statements are true doesn't mean I have to like the
virus!

Jude <jdashiel@shellworld.net>

On Fri, 7 Sep 2001, Jared wrote:

> If the command line is so grate write me or help write me a mass market
> application that cells to millions of coppies. You can't because you can't
> use the g u i interface in linux like you can in windows. So you will have
> to write in general smaller market programs if you wish to do that for a
> job. I on the other hand because I'm not thick headed can write G U I
> applications with vb or any number of other tools. As for your comment to
> Mr. Toneby what about the people who tryed to make linux a more user
> friendly opperaiting system generated a G U I so they generated code that
> turned to inaccessible garbige for you so they are just as mutch at fault as
> sun. A large part of microsoft is that the windows 3.1 was not around for a
> long enough time for standerds to devolipe. They may have been responcible
> for the inaccessibility in the past but now they are making an effort to
> change that tell me is there anyone trying in the linux community cort or no
> cort trying to make a screen reader for the G U I part of linux? If so
> please send me email so I can try and help but don't complain about
> microsoft when people arn't working to help your beloved oh so accessible
> linux.
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: "Jude DaShiell" <jdashiel@shellworld.net>
> To: <blinux-list@redhat.com>
> Sent: Friday, September 07, 2001 9:35 PM
> Subject: Re: The growing accessibility gap: was Ameritech.net
>
>
> > The command line interface does not cause me any problems, it's that other
> > junk that makes life hell.  So far as bitching is concerned, you haven't
> > yet heard me bitch.  All I did was to state some widely known and accepted
> > axioms which are axiomatic since they're so easily proven.  Were you
> > correct in your statements, the Council Of Agencies Serving the blind
> > would not have contemplated taking Microsoft to court in January of 1995.
> > As it was, certain agreements were reached that seemingly alleviated the
> > necessity for litigation.
> >
> > Jude <jdashiel@shellworld.net>
> >
> >
> >
> >
> > _______________________________________________
> > Blinux-list mailing list
> > Blinux-list@redhat.com
> > https://listman.redhat.com/mailman/listinfo/blinux-list
>
>
> _________________________________________________________
> Do You Yahoo!?
> Get your free @yahoo.com address at http://mail.yahoo.com
>
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> Blinux-list mailing list
> Blinux-list@redhat.com
> https://listman.redhat.com/mailman/listinfo/blinux-list
>

Re: The growing accessibility gap: was Ameritech.net

[Angelo Sonnesso]

look at the gnome development project.

----- Original Message -----
From: "Jared" <stofflej@yahoo.com>
To: <blinux-list@redhat.com>
Sent: Friday, September 07, 2001 10:04 PM
Subject: Re: The growing accessibility gap: was Ameritech.net


> If the command line is so grate write me or help write me a mass market
> application that cells to millions of coppies. You can't because you can't
> use the g u i interface in linux like you can in windows. So you will have
> to write in general smaller market programs if you wish to do that for a
> job. I on the other hand because I'm not thick headed can write G U I
> applications with vb or any number of other tools. As for your comment to
> Mr. Toneby what about the people who tryed to make linux a more user
> friendly opperaiting system generated a G U I so they generated code that
> turned to inaccessible garbige for you so they are just as mutch at fault
as
> sun. A large part of microsoft is that the windows 3.1 was not around for
a
> long enough time for standerds to devolipe. They may have been responcible
> for the inaccessibility in the past but now they are making an effort to
> change that tell me is there anyone trying in the linux community cort or
no
> cort trying to make a screen reader for the G U I part of linux? If so
> please send me email so I can try and help but don't complain about
> microsoft when people arn't working to help your beloved oh so accessible
> linux.
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: "Jude DaShiell" <jdashiel@shellworld.net>
> To: <blinux-list@redhat.com>
> Sent: Friday, September 07, 2001 9:35 PM
> Subject: Re: The growing accessibility gap: was Ameritech.net
>
>
> > The command line interface does not cause me any problems, it's that
other
> > junk that makes life hell.  So far as bitching is concerned, you haven't
> > yet heard me bitch.  All I did was to state some widely known and
accepted
> > axioms which are axiomatic since they're so easily proven.  Were you
> > correct in your statements, the Council Of Agencies Serving the blind
> > would not have contemplated taking Microsoft to court in January of
1995.
> > As it was, certain agreements were reached that seemingly alleviated the
> > necessity for litigation.
> >
> > Jude <jdashiel@shellworld.net>
> >
> >
> >
> >
> > _______________________________________________
> > Blinux-list mailing list
> > Blinux-list@redhat.com
> > https://listman.redhat.com/mailman/listinfo/blinux-list
>
>
> _________________________________________________________
> Do You Yahoo!?
> Get your free @yahoo.com address at http://mail.yahoo.com
>
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> Blinux-list mailing list
> Blinux-list@redhat.com
> https://listman.redhat.com/mailman/listinfo/blinux-list
>

Re: The growing accessibility gap: was Ameritech.net

[Jared]

Where is it?
----- Original Message -----
From: "Angelo Sonnesso" <asonnesso@coastalnet.com>
To: <blinux-list@redhat.com>
Sent: Friday, September 07, 2001 10:50 PM
Subject: Re: The growing accessibility gap: was Ameritech.net


> look at the gnome development project.
>
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: "Jared" <stofflej@yahoo.com>
> To: <blinux-list@redhat.com>
> Sent: Friday, September 07, 2001 10:04 PM
> Subject: Re: The growing accessibility gap: was Ameritech.net
>
>
> > If the command line is so grate write me or help write me a mass market
> > application that cells to millions of coppies. You can't because you
can't
> > use the g u i interface in linux like you can in windows. So you will
have
> > to write in general smaller market programs if you wish to do that for a
> > job. I on the other hand because I'm not thick headed can write G U I
> > applications with vb or any number of other tools. As for your comment
to
> > Mr. Toneby what about the people who tryed to make linux a more user
> > friendly opperaiting system generated a G U I so they generated code
that
> > turned to inaccessible garbige for you so they are just as mutch at
fault
> as
> > sun. A large part of microsoft is that the windows 3.1 was not around
for
> a
> > long enough time for standerds to devolipe. They may have been
responcible
> > for the inaccessibility in the past but now they are making an effort to
> > change that tell me is there anyone trying in the linux community cort
or
> no
> > cort trying to make a screen reader for the G U I part of linux? If so
> > please send me email so I can try and help but don't complain about
> > microsoft when people arn't working to help your beloved oh so
accessible
> > linux.
> > ----- Original Message -----
> > From: "Jude DaShiell" <jdashiel@shellworld.net>
> > To: <blinux-list@redhat.com>
> > Sent: Friday, September 07, 2001 9:35 PM
> > Subject: Re: The growing accessibility gap: was Ameritech.net
> >
> >
> > > The command line interface does not cause me any problems, it's that
> other
> > > junk that makes life hell.  So far as bitching is concerned, you
haven't
> > > yet heard me bitch.  All I did was to state some widely known and
> accepted
> > > axioms which are axiomatic since they're so easily proven.  Were you
> > > correct in your statements, the Council Of Agencies Serving the blind
> > > would not have contemplated taking Microsoft to court in January of
> 1995.
> > > As it was, certain agreements were reached that seemingly alleviated
the
> > > necessity for litigation.
> > >
> > > Jude <jdashiel@shellworld.net>
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > > _______________________________________________
> > > Blinux-list mailing list
> > > Blinux-list@redhat.com
> > > https://listman.redhat.com/mailman/listinfo/blinux-list
> >
> >
> > _________________________________________________________
> > Do You Yahoo!?
> > Get your free @yahoo.com address at http://mail.yahoo.com
> >
> >
> >
> > _______________________________________________
> > Blinux-list mailing list
> > Blinux-list@redhat.com
> > https://listman.redhat.com/mailman/listinfo/blinux-list
> >
>
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> Blinux-list mailing list
> Blinux-list@redhat.com
> https://listman.redhat.com/mailman/listinfo/blinux-list


_________________________________________________________
Do You Yahoo!?
Get your free @yahoo.com address at http://mail.yahoo.com

Re: The growing accessibility gap: was Ameritech.net

[Rick Hayner]

Hello.  

Since windows is so darned accessable, tell me why I can't install it
and get it to run with my trident video card, and would you also tell
me that when windows crashes, why you never hear any of the error
messages?  All you get is this program performed an illegal operation,
speech dies, and you get no error messages telling you what the devil
the error messages are, what illegal operation the program performed
or anything else.  I have been running linux for over 2 years, and I
have never had it crash on me without knowing why.  I love you people
who belittle the command-line interface.  You take tools like sed,
those tools can modify hundreds of files in the time it would take
windows users to select the files to be modified, if there was such a
powerful tool in windows.  

I took the united states amateur radio callbook, which contains over
712,000 records, copied it to my linux partition because I wanted it
in linux.  I created a table in mysql to hold the fields contained in
the callbook, and using the load data command, I imported that entire
712,000 row database in 28 seconds.  That was on a 200 mhz processor
and a fairly slow hard drive compaired to the new 7200 rpm drives.
Try that in windows, and tell me how many minutes it takes you to
import such a large file.  If windows is so great, why are over half
of all internet servers running under either Unix or Linux?  

As far as I'm concerned, windows is for people who could care less
about how their computers work, and who are willing to pay a
technician $50.00 an hour everytime their system crashes.  I only need
some accounting, and I'll have a degree in computer science.  I went
to linux because I love programming, and I love experimenting with my
computer.  I can write all of the letters I want to write with emacs,
and I can learn latex or even Tex if I want to really get fancy.
Every time microsoft comes out with a new operating system, or
upgrades it, you need to buy all new computers if you want any
performance out of it.  I know 13 programming languages, and I learned
them all under dos or linux, except for ibm 360 assembler and cobol.

Take care.

-- 
Rick Hayner
rhayner@complink.net
Member spebsqsa, Baritone Kalamazoo Mall City Chorus.
Amateur radio station wa8jqv

Re: The growing accessibility gap: was Ameritech.net

[Jude DaShiell]

I really shouldn't do this, it's aiding and abbeting the enemy.  But if
you write me off list I'll send you about a braille page worth of
instructions for installing windows.  If all works correctly you'll be at
the task bar when done.  It's more than Microsoft or national braille
press will do.

Jude <jdashiel@shellworld.net>

On Fri, 7 Sep 2001, Rick Hayner wrote:

>
>
> Hello.
>
> Since windows is so darned accessable, tell me why I can't install it
> and get it to run with my trident video card, and would you also tell
> me that when windows crashes, why you never hear any of the error
> messages?  All you get is this program performed an illegal operation,
> speech dies, and you get no error messages telling you what the devil
> the error messages are, what illegal operation the program performed
> or anything else.  I have been running linux for over 2 years, and I
> have never had it crash on me without knowing why.  I love you people
> who belittle the command-line interface.  You take tools like sed,
> those tools can modify hundreds of files in the time it would take
> windows users to select the files to be modified, if there was such a
> powerful tool in windows.
>
> I took the united states amateur radio callbook, which contains over
> 712,000 records, copied it to my linux partition because I wanted it
> in linux.  I created a table in mysql to hold the fields contained in
> the callbook, and using the load data command, I imported that entire
> 712,000 row database in 28 seconds.  That was on a 200 mhz processor
> and a fairly slow hard drive compaired to the new 7200 rpm drives.
> Try that in windows, and tell me how many minutes it takes you to
> import such a large file.  If windows is so great, why are over half
> of all internet servers running under either Unix or Linux?
>
> As far as I'm concerned, windows is for people who could care less
> about how their computers work, and who are willing to pay a
> technician $50.00 an hour everytime their system crashes.  I only need
> some accounting, and I'll have a degree in computer science.  I went
> to linux because I love programming, and I love experimenting with my
> computer.  I can write all of the letters I want to write with emacs,
> and I can learn latex or even Tex if I want to really get fancy.
> Every time microsoft comes out with a new operating system, or
> upgrades it, you need to buy all new computers if you want any
> performance out of it.  I know 13 programming languages, and I learned
> them all under dos or linux, except for ibm 360 assembler and cobol.
>
> Take care.
>
> --
> Rick Hayner
> rhayner@complink.net
> Member spebsqsa, Baritone Kalamazoo Mall City Chorus.
> Amateur radio station wa8jqv
>
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> Blinux-list mailing list
> Blinux-list@redhat.com
> https://listman.redhat.com/mailman/listinfo/blinux-list
>

Re: The growing accessibility gap:

[Jared]

Okay to your first point I don't know maybe your card is old. Second did you
know about the error or default log files that keep track of errors. I don't
know how well frased they are compared to linux errors but you can always
look there. I am also willing to bet you could have learned most if not all
of those languages on either windows or windows through a dos box with
idmittedly is not windows but isn't linux either. I'm not debaiting the
marret of linux for programming or that it is more stable then windows it
isn't as accessible thoe.
----- Original Message -----
From: "Rick Hayner" <rhayner@complink.net>
To: <blinux-list@redhat.com>
Sent: Friday, September 07, 2001 10:52 PM
Subject: Re: The growing accessibility gap: was Ameritech.net


>
>
> Hello.
>
> Since windows is so darned accessable, tell me why I can't install it
> and get it to run with my trident video card, and would you also tell
> me that when windows crashes, why you never hear any of the error
> messages?  All you get is this program performed an illegal operation,
> speech dies, and you get no error messages telling you what the devil
> the error messages are, what illegal operation the program performed
> or anything else.  I have been running linux for over 2 years, and I
> have never had it crash on me without knowing why.  I love you people
> who belittle the command-line interface.  You take tools like sed,
> those tools can modify hundreds of files in the time it would take
> windows users to select the files to be modified, if there was such a
> powerful tool in windows.
>
> I took the united states amateur radio callbook, which contains over
> 712,000 records, copied it to my linux partition because I wanted it
> in linux.  I created a table in mysql to hold the fields contained in
> the callbook, and using the load data command, I imported that entire
> 712,000 row database in 28 seconds.  That was on a 200 mhz processor
> and a fairly slow hard drive compaired to the new 7200 rpm drives.
> Try that in windows, and tell me how many minutes it takes you to
> import such a large file.  If windows is so great, why are over half
> of all internet servers running under either Unix or Linux?
>
> As far as I'm concerned, windows is for people who could care less
> about how their computers work, and who are willing to pay a
> technician $50.00 an hour everytime their system crashes.  I only need
> some accounting, and I'll have a degree in computer science.  I went
> to linux because I love programming, and I love experimenting with my
> computer.  I can write all of the letters I want to write with emacs,
> and I can learn latex or even Tex if I want to really get fancy.
> Every time microsoft comes out with a new operating system, or
> upgrades it, you need to buy all new computers if you want any
> performance out of it.  I know 13 programming languages, and I learned
> them all under dos or linux, except for ibm 360 assembler and cobol.
>
> Take care.
>
> --
> Rick Hayner
> rhayner@complink.net
> Member spebsqsa, Baritone Kalamazoo Mall City Chorus.
> Amateur radio station wa8jqv
>
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> Blinux-list mailing list
> Blinux-list@redhat.com
> https://listman.redhat.com/mailman/listinfo/blinux-list


_________________________________________________________
Do You Yahoo!?
Get your free @yahoo.com address at http://mail.yahoo.com

Re: The growing accessibility gap:

[Rick Hayner]

Hi Jared.

The reason that all web sites are not accessable from linux is that
people are too lazy to learn html properly, and rely on front page, or
some other tool that produces html for you.  Java isn't the problem,
it's java script that is.  

I agree that I may have been able to learn a lot of the languages I
know in windows, but as far as I'm concerned, windows is very
ineffecient for a blind person to use.  sure, you need to spend the
time to learn the command-line interface, but it's much faster to copy
files, and do just about anything else in linux than it is in
windows.  I'm sorry I came down on you so hard, but all I've heard on
about 4 or 5 blindness lists for the past 6 months is how wonderful
windows is, and how lousy linux is.  I can do just about anything I
want to do in Linux, accept go to chat rooms, and if people would put
up a few speakfreely reflectors, that wouldn't be a problem either.  I
can make my own cds, including producing the .wav files to burn them
with, of my own music.  I can listen to .mp3 files, as well as create
them either from cds or wav files I create myself.  I can do sirches
using emacspeak far easier than with msie5.5.  and I don't have to
worry about having to pay $75.00 to $150 to upgrade screen readers and
software, because it's all free.  With debian linux, you never have to
reinstall.  Once it's installed, you can upgrade your system at
anytime with debian.

I'm planning on getting a new video card soon.  

Take care.

-- 
Rick Hayner
rhayner@complink.net
Member spebsqsa, Baritone Kalamazoo Mall City Chorus.
Amateur radio station wa8jqv

Re: The growing accessibility gap: was Ameritech.net

[Rafael Skodlar]

On Fri, Sep 07, 2001 at 10:04:22PM -0400, Jared wrote:
> If the command line is so grate write me or help write me a mass market
> application that cells to millions of coppies. You can't because you can't

You do need to learn basics of economics, technology, and about menthality
of masses.

> use the g u i interface in linux like you can in windows. So you will have

Come on, stop this nonsense! Linux Apps can be and often are much better
designed in GUI or otherwise. The applications at least reside separate
from data which is not the case in most Windoze crap where there is no
serious concept of home.

I support developers on a daily basis and it's amazing to see that they
can come come up with something that works under windows. Fortunately for
me I only need to deal with Linux and Solaris, both stable which I cannot 
say for windoze.

> to write in general smaller market programs if you wish to do that for a
> job. I on the other hand because I'm not thick headed can write G U I
> applications with vb or any number of other tools. As for your comment to

VB is not software development!

> Mr. Toneby what about the people who tryed to make linux a more user
> friendly opperaiting system generated a G U I so they generated code that

They've done a nice job, thank you. Gnome, KDE, etc. with a lot of tools
and apps including nice virtual screens which I have yet to see in
(default) windows.

> turned to inaccessible garbige for you so they are just as mutch at fault as
> sun. A large part of microsoft is that the windows 3.1 was not around for a
> long enough time for standerds to devolipe. They may have been responcible

Windows was never a standard and it never will be outside MS. At least you
can export X windows applications between different platforms which is NOT
the case in windows. Worse, one application in one version of windoze
won't run in another in many cases.

Unix is mature OS, windows is still in diapers and they smell badly.

> for the inaccessibility in the past but now they are making an effort to
> change that tell me is there anyone trying in the linux community cort or no
> cort trying to make a screen reader for the G U I part of linux? If so

Linux is open source and depends on developers free time among other
things. If you want something written for you then come up with some dough
to support Linux community. Perhaps if somebody gets all the equipment
needed to develop such a reader, they'll do it. Small markets get less
attention than large ones, simple economics.

> please send me email so I can try and help but don't complain about
> microsoft when people arn't working to help your beloved oh so accessible
> linux.

More nonsense! Nobody owes you free programs. Be happy to get them so
cheap.

GNU/Linux is just an OS that makes computers usable. It happens to be very
good tool and free on top of that. Don't like it? Go somewhere else.

Rafael

Re: The growing accessibility gap: was Ameritech.net

[Andor Demarteau]

On Fri, 7 Sep 2001, Rafael Skodlar wrote:

 > On Fri, Sep 07, 2001 at 10:04:22PM -0400, Jared wrote:
 > > If the command line is so grate write me or help write me a mass market
 > > application that cells to millions of coppies. You can't because you can't
Linux is not an economic product, no mass-ads for it and certainly no big
company behind it.
Don't try to blame lack of knolidge about handeling linux as inaccesible
Last but not leeast, you don't SELL linux you get it FOR FREE!
Now how is that compared to all commerical bullshit!

One last thing, I'm possitive that if the gnome and kde accebility projects
succeed that will be a lot better then MS and all included will ever
become.

Fine, if you feel better win windbloze, your problem.
Now, let's quit the OS-discussion and ask ourselves what this thread really
is about then bitching each other about here believes/experiences.


 > You do need to learn basics of economics, technology, and about menthality
 > of masses.
 > 
 > > use the g u i interface in linux like you can in windows. So you will have
 > 
 > Come on, stop this nonsense! Linux Apps can be and often are much better
 > designed in GUI or otherwise. The applications at least reside separate
 > from data which is not the case in most Windoze crap where there is no
 > serious concept of home.
 > 
 > I support developers on a daily basis and it's amazing to see that they
 > can come come up with something that works under windows. Fortunately for
 > me I only need to deal with Linux and Solaris, both stable which I cannot 
 > say for windoze.
 > 
 > > to write in general smaller market programs if you wish to do that for a
 > > job. I on the other hand because I'm not thick headed can write G U I
 > > applications with vb or any number of other tools. As for your comment to
 > 
 > VB is not software development!
 > 
 > > Mr. Toneby what about the people who tryed to make linux a more user
 > > friendly opperaiting system generated a G U I so they generated code that
 > 
 > They've done a nice job, thank you. Gnome, KDE, etc. with a lot of tools
 > and apps including nice virtual screens which I have yet to see in
 > (default) windows.
 > 
 > > turned to inaccessible garbige for you so they are just as mutch at fault as
 > > sun. A large part of microsoft is that the windows 3.1 was not around for a
 > > long enough time for standerds to devolipe. They may have been responcible
 > 
 > Windows was never a standard and it never will be outside MS. At least you
 > can export X windows applications between different platforms which is NOT
 > the case in windows. Worse, one application in one version of windoze
 > won't run in another in many cases.
 > 
 > Unix is mature OS, windows is still in diapers and they smell badly.
 > 
 > > for the inaccessibility in the past but now they are making an effort to
 > > change that tell me is there anyone trying in the linux community cort or no
 > > cort trying to make a screen reader for the G U I part of linux? If so
 > 
 > Linux is open source and depends on developers free time among other
 > things. If you want something written for you then come up with some dough
 > to support Linux community. Perhaps if somebody gets all the equipment
 > needed to develop such a reader, they'll do it. Small markets get less
 > attention than large ones, simple economics.
 > 
 > > please send me email so I can try and help but don't complain about
 > > microsoft when people arn't working to help your beloved oh so accessible
 > > linux.
 > 
 > More nonsense! Nobody owes you free programs. Be happy to get them so
 > cheap.
 > 
 > GNU/Linux is just an OS that makes computers usable. It happens to be very
 > good tool and free on top of that. Don't like it? Go somewhere else.
 > 
 > Rafael
 > 
 > 
 > 
 > _______________________________________________
 > Blinux-list mailing list
 > Blinux-list@redhat.com
 > https://listman.redhat.com/mailman/listinfo/blinux-list
 > 

slainte mhaith (good health), slainte (cheers)
Uisce Beatha (water of live/health)
-----------
Andor Demarteau                 E-mail: ademarte@students.cs.uu.nl
student computer science        www: http://www.students.cs.uu.nl/~ademarte/
Utrecht University              irc: see webpage for details
-----------
Believe in yourself, know what you want, and make it happen!

Re: The growing accessibility gap: was Ameritech.net

[Ray Saldana III]

A great exchange of ideas and thoughts. I think we all need to realize
though that the whole reason we get to have these exchanges in this format
is all of the programmers collectively that have contributed to our access
to written communications! I appreciate them all, Linux, Windows, All of
them!
    In the past there was a wall up to us that was a very formidable barrier
and that was Braille. Though Braille was a great thing, it presented a
barrier to those not being able to read printed material, as they could take
notes and write letters, but only to someone that understood Braille! Now
though the computer has bridged the gap by allowing us to communicate in a
forum that is comfortable to the sighted community. Face it we are the ones
that are different, so must adapt, and all of the programmers no matter how
small they contributed, none the less contributed to the betterment of our
lives.
    I myself feel so lucky to be able to access printed word again! I am
just thankful to all who have tried to help! After all is said and done, I
am just thankful to have the opportunity to have an exchange like this at
all!
    Think of this as you navigate the web, you run across inaccessible web
pages, and must struggle to get the information from them. But think of
this, at least you can get the information for yourself! Have you ever been
able to do this from a book or magazine someone left behind? I mean all for
yourself, as you and I both know it is hard to ask someone to read to you,
and if you need it reread to you you could feel their frustration especially
if they were not interested in the subject matter or didn't understand it.
Think about leaving it all behind you! Life is much easier now!
    I think this was a healthy exchange of ideas, and you have great minds.
It is time now however to count our blessings, and remember what it was like
before! I like both systems, and respect the contributions of all that have
worked to make my life easier.
    One also important point was made about the freeware community working
and sharing their knowledge, bless those people! I only wish I had big
enough pockets to help them all, though they still keep working with a
believe in mind, and ingenuity, they are heroes in my book! We are lucky to
live in this time!
    I toast you all as you fight for knowledge and struggle to access, and
work to keep on keeping on, none of you have quit, and that is something to
be very proud of! You as well as I could have said, "I can't see anymore, I
am going to sit here and do nothing from now on." I know you have came
across this, and that is something to be really ashamed of! Keep up the good
work, and though it is a challenge come away with the knowledge that you are
progressing in a situation most can't imagine!
73 RR
AB7JM
http://personal.riverusers.com/~ab7jm_gila
----- Original Message -----
From: "Andor Demarteau" <ademarte@students.cs.uu.nl>
To: <blinux-list@redhat.com>
Sent: Saturday, September 08, 2001 11:15 AM
Subject: Re: The growing accessibility gap: was Ameritech.net


> On Fri, 7 Sep 2001, Rafael Skodlar wrote:
>
>  > On Fri, Sep 07, 2001 at 10:04:22PM -0400, Jared wrote:
>  > > If the command line is so grate write me or help write me a mass
market
>  > > application that cells to millions of coppies. You can't because you
can't
> Linux is not an economic product, no mass-ads for it and certainly no big
> company behind it.
> Don't try to blame lack of knolidge about handeling linux as inaccesible
> Last but not leeast, you don't SELL linux you get it FOR FREE!
> Now how is that compared to all commerical bullshit!
>
> One last thing, I'm possitive that if the gnome and kde accebility
projects
> succeed that will be a lot better then MS and all included will ever
> become.
>
> Fine, if you feel better win windbloze, your problem.
> Now, let's quit the OS-discussion and ask ourselves what this thread
really
> is about then bitching each other about here believes/experiences.
>
>
>  > You do need to learn basics of economics, technology, and about
menthality
>  > of masses.
>  >
>  > > use the g u i interface in linux like you can in windows. So you will
have
>  >
>  > Come on, stop this nonsense! Linux Apps can be and often are much
better
>  > designed in GUI or otherwise. The applications at least reside separate
>  > from data which is not the case in most Windoze crap where there is no
>  > serious concept of home.
>  >
>  > I support developers on a daily basis and it's amazing to see that they
>  > can come come up with something that works under windows. Fortunately
for
>  > me I only need to deal with Linux and Solaris, both stable which I
cannot
>  > say for windoze.
>  >
>  > > to write in general smaller market programs if you wish to do that
for a
>  > > job. I on the other hand because I'm not thick headed can write G U I
>  > > applications with vb or any number of other tools. As for your
comment to
>  >
>  > VB is not software development!
>  >
>  > > Mr. Toneby what about the people who tryed to make linux a more user
>  > > friendly opperaiting system generated a G U I so they generated code
that
>  >
>  > They've done a nice job, thank you. Gnome, KDE, etc. with a lot of
tools
>  > and apps including nice virtual screens which I have yet to see in
>  > (default) windows.
>  >
>  > > turned to inaccessible garbige for you so they are just as mutch at
fault as
>  > > sun. A large part of microsoft is that the windows 3.1 was not around
for a
>  > > long enough time for standerds to devolipe. They may have been
responcible
>  >
>  > Windows was never a standard and it never will be outside MS. At least
you
>  > can export X windows applications between different platforms which is
NOT
>  > the case in windows. Worse, one application in one version of windoze
>  > won't run in another in many cases.
>  >
>  > Unix is mature OS, windows is still in diapers and they smell badly.
>  >
>  > > for the inaccessibility in the past but now they are making an effort
to
>  > > change that tell me is there anyone trying in the linux community
cort or no
>  > > cort trying to make a screen reader for the G U I part of linux? If
so
>  >
>  > Linux is open source and depends on developers free time among other
>  > things. If you want something written for you then come up with some
dough
>  > to support Linux community. Perhaps if somebody gets all the equipment
>  > needed to develop such a reader, they'll do it. Small markets get less
>  > attention than large ones, simple economics.
>  >
>  > > please send me email so I can try and help but don't complain about
>  > > microsoft when people arn't working to help your beloved oh so
accessible
>  > > linux.
>  >
>  > More nonsense! Nobody owes you free programs. Be happy to get them so
>  > cheap.
>  >
>  > GNU/Linux is just an OS that makes computers usable. It happens to be
very
>  > good tool and free on top of that. Don't like it? Go somewhere else.
>  >
>  > Rafael
>  >
>  >
>  >
>  > _______________________________________________
>  > Blinux-list mailing list
>  > Blinux-list@redhat.com
>  > https://listman.redhat.com/mailman/listinfo/blinux-list
>  >
>
> slainte mhaith (good health), slainte (cheers)
> Uisce Beatha (water of live/health)
> -----------
> Andor Demarteau                 E-mail: ademarte@students.cs.uu.nl
> student computer science        www:
http://www.students.cs.uu.nl/~ademarte/
> Utrecht University              irc: see webpage for details
> -----------
> Believe in yourself, know what you want, and make it happen!
>
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> Blinux-list mailing list
> Blinux-list@redhat.com
> https://listman.redhat.com/mailman/listinfo/blinux-list
>

Re: The growing accessibility gap: was Ameritech.net

[Ari Moisio]

Hi!
Jared 07.09.01:

>If the command line is so grate write me or help write me a mass market
>application that cells to millions of coppies. You can't because you can't

  Well, make it a html-based application:-> Everybody can choose the
most suitable UI.

>use the g u i interface in linux like you can in windows. So you will have

  To be exact: you don't have to use gui in Linux:->

>to write in general smaller market programs if you wish to do that for a
>job. I on the other hand because I'm not thick headed can write G U I
>applications with vb or any number of other tools. As for your comment to

  I have so far believed that because my sighted colleagues don't have
to mess with rewiew modes, guess bitmaps and remember what
alt-leftcontrol-mother-in-law-space did at this mode but now i know what
is my actual problem. Thanks.

  Seriously talking: text-based (or cli if you prefer so) apps are much
easier for screen reader. I have almost same information about screen
contents than my sighted colleagues. In addition i have similar user
interface to enter commands; the keyboard.

  If you can get job in gui environment thats fine. But i personally
cannot compete with sighted colleagues. i'm glad i started to explore
Linux and networks at '95 instead of investing $3k into new computer
(would be obsolete now), os (obsolete now) and screen reader (very
obsolete now).

-- 
Mr. Ari Moisio, Niittykatu 7, 41160 Tikkakoski, +358-40-5055239
ari.moisio@iki.fi http://www.iki.fi/arimo PGP-keyID: 0x3FAF0F05

Re: The growing accessibility gap: was Ameritech.net

[Andor Demarteau]

How hold on please.
1. think before you write, we don't want an os-war on here
2. linux console in my opinion is more accessable then windows
3. there are already java/console tolls
4. fine that you use windows, but you still have trouble with
javascript/flash/applets and whatever extra graphical garble you find on
the web, thatis if no alt-tags are used whihc is in 99% of the cases
5. if memory serves me, Sun is one of the companies working on the gnome
accebility kit
6. msaa okay, but if it wasn't for that nice american law, MS would not
have put such effort in that at all (I remember IE4.0 took about 6 months
to get all the GPF-errors out wheile usiing it under windowbridge and don't
start about office97).
7. Windows XP ahs a narrator (speech stuff), but it sucks trust me


On Fri, 7 Sep 2001 blindguy13@juno.com wrote:

 > Quiet your bitching. The probleum is linux. I use it a little and use
 > windows a lot things with it are a lot more accessible. If you love
 > editing your configeration files so mutch then stay with linux and create
 > your own access bridge sun didn't have to put that out for windows. Html
 > is accessible with internet explorer through jaws, window eyes or what
 > ever else you want to use. As for microsoft I know a tech guy who will
 > bend over backwords to help out with accessibility and in there new
 > visual net relies msaa will be built in to a lot larger extent. Don't
 > bitch at other compinies when if you carred so mutch you could write the
 > damn program to read java your self try working with the accessibility
 > people at sun althoe with an attitude like yours trying to blame
 > everything on big compinies they won't want to work with you it is the
 > small programs I have found are the bigger probleums not the larger ones
 > thats why I am using windows to write this message because it is
 > accessible.
 > ________________________________________________________________
 > GET INTERNET ACCESS FROM JUNO!
 > Juno offers FREE or PREMIUM Internet access for less!
 > Join Juno today!  For your FREE software, visit:
 > http://dl.www.juno.com/get/tagj.
 > 
 > 
 > 
 > _______________________________________________
 > Blinux-list mailing list
 > Blinux-list@redhat.com
 > https://listman.redhat.com/mailman/listinfo/blinux-list
 > 

slainte mhaith (good health), slainte (cheers)
Uisce Beatha (water of live/health)
-----------
Andor Demarteau                 E-mail: ademarte@students.cs.uu.nl
student computer science        www: http://www.students.cs.uu.nl/~ademarte/
Utrecht University              irc: see webpage for details
-----------
Believe in yourself, know what you want, and make it happen!