From mboxrd@z Thu Jan 1 00:00:00 1970 Return-Path: Received: from mail.redhat.com (mail.redhat.com [199.183.24.239]) by listman.redhat.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 99A182EFCF for ; Fri, 10 Nov 2000 01:24:47 -0500 (EST) Received: (from mail@localhost) by mail.redhat.com (8.11.0/8.8.7) id eAA6Old31459 for blinux-list@listman.redhat.com; Fri, 10 Nov 2000 01:24:47 -0500 Received: from ns.shellworld.net (IDENT:root@ns.shellworld.net [64.29.16.176]) by mail.redhat.com (8.11.0/8.8.7) with ESMTP id eAA6OkD31453 for ; Fri, 10 Nov 2000 01:24:47 -0500 Received: from dashiell (24-216-121-35.hsacorp.net [24.216.121.35]) by ns.shellworld.net (8.9.3/8.9.3) with SMTP id BAA16822 for ; Fri, 10 Nov 2000 01:24:36 -0500 Message-ID: <000801c04ade$985cfd40$2379d818@hsanet.net> From: "Jude DaShiell" To: References: <200011100040.QAA06810@sugarbeet.ultimanet.com> Subject: Re: FAQ Suggestions/Perceptions from a Novice--worth 2 cents. Date: Fri, 10 Nov 2000 01:22:24 -0500 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 5.50.4133.2400 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.50.4133.2400 X-Loop: blinux-list@redhat.com Sender: blinux-list-admin@redhat.com Errors-To: blinux-list-admin@redhat.com X-BeenThere: blinux-list@redhat.com X-Mailman-Version: 2.0beta4 Precedence: bulk Reply-To: blinux-list@redhat.com List-Id: Linux for blind general discussion I suggest you post to the list the town state or province and country in which you live. It's possible a linux user's group can be located a reasonable distance from you but not without that information. One was located near me by a friend and it's a live group. The zipspeak distribution is part of the slackware distribution at least. ftp://ftp.slackware.com/pub/slackware/slackware-7.1/zipspeak/zipspeak.zip ----- Original Message ----- From: "Gary Wynn" To: "Blinux" Sent: Thursday, November 09, 2000 7:37 PM Subject: FAQ Suggestions/Perceptions from a Novice--worth 2 cents. > Hi, Hans, > > Let me first begin by making a peace offering. I am not posting this to > diminish any person, their very considered contributions, intelligently > presented work, or well thought out statements. I am volunteering to be a > novice at testing and attempting to follow any document/FAQ that is offered > that will help me run Linux with speech in a way that is usable for anything > other than a classroom exercise. > > I have the greatest respect to all who have contributed to the FAQ, and who > have helped me to get this far. My respect is heightened, if anything, by my > own real frustration at finding this to be difficult. I truly admire anyone > who is blind who is using Linux successfully with speech--especially when > they are doing it unsupported by a local guru! > > The following are perceptions of MINE. This is no scientific document, but > is offered as ONE novice's attempt to provide a perspective on why some of us > have difficulty with Linux. Consider it an ethnographic offering. > > Let's begin by defining a *novice*. > > I am a novice. That means that I am a DOS user--a good one, but that is the > language/system I understand. I have read many references in linux/unix, but > still do not know anything about actually using it for anything. I can do > some academic exercises like copy files, move files, create directories, and > list files. > > I have a DOS system that meets my needs fairly well. The limitation being > communications and net access. I use a provider that offers me a shell > account on a linux system. > > I use Lynx to access the web. At this moment, that is the only significant > access I have. > > I have a Linux partition with Red Hat 6.1 installed with SpeakUp, thanks to > Matt Campbell. I have not been able to make much use of it due to a lack of > understanding as to how to do more than move around in Linux, do basic file > operations, and try to figure out how to make it do what I do daily--which I > have not been at all successful at doing, so I still use DOS for everything. > > I have accessed the Blinux FAQ via Lynx from my DOS machine running Commo. I > have read the FAQ twice. > > Several impressions/challenges presented themselves to me: > > 1. The FAQ is linguistically and structurally a document for a user far more > advanced than I now am. By that, I mean that it offers much information, but > assumes that one is first, accessing it through linux! > > It would be nice if it offers a way to download the FAQ via lynx, which is > how I accessed it. I tried to capture the text, but Lynx and Commo capture > are not in agreement about that. The capture file was a series of pages with > screens overlaying each other--useless. > > With out the FAQ in hand, so to speak, I have to rely on memory for accessing > other resources that it suggests. It is a treasure in terms of a reference, > but unless I have it in my DOS machine, I have no ready way to make use of it. > > 2. I tried out the link to search the archives, and found that when it said > to "press to activate, that I only took off on another link, and > lost my place. I did not try that again. > > I know Lynx is pretty primitive about accessing most websites, which is > another problem with many of the resources suggested. > > I followed the excellent advice given by Matt in the FAQ to access > CheapBytes.com for documentation. I found a disk of Red Hat documentation > for a couple of bucks, but Lynx and CheapBytes don't agree on letting me > access any way to actually order the disk. CheapBytes has no 800 number, or > alternative way to order from what I could find. There is a method for > faxing in an order, but with no way to download the offering, I am not sure > how to actually order the item. Screen capture failed again. > > 4. Several other resource lists are mentioned that are good places to learn > about Linux for newbies. Wow! Just what I want! How about a link that lets > me fill in my info, and sends it to the list for me? I do not remember the > addresses, and did not successfully capture them. > > 5. There is a mention of how to use a DOS Emulator for running DOS programs! > Just what I want most to do, so I can get started doing things in a Linux > environment, while getting around all the thousands of details I do not know, > by working in DOS as I need to as my files and info are all in DOS. > > There is no actual FAQ on how to do this. A step by step document helping a > person to set this up, and truly get going using the advantages of Linux with > DOS data/programs would be a tremendous asset. > > There is a reference to using the IBM SpeakOut, but again, a step by step FAQ > on why this is desirable, what is involved in doing it, and some guidance in > actually obtaining it would be helpful. I doubt I need it, but a newbie is > never sure of what is necessary and what is not. I use a Lite Talk, and that > seems okay. Is there some reason why it is less preferable to the SpeakOut? > > 6. I got a wonderful bit of advice from a highly knowledgeable person about > a program called ZipSpeak, that operates under DOS and lets me have access to > Linux while I am learning it. I looked for the FAQ to guide me in > finding/using it, but I did not find any reference to it. Is this something > that might be added? I would love to have that capability at present. > > 7. There is mention in the FAQ of discussions in the past in regard to a > Speech Distribution of Linux. I witnessed one such discussion on this list > months ago--yes, I monitored it for many months without ever commenting. > Most messages are so far beyond my understanding that I only barely grasp the > import of them. As a knowledgeable Linux user, I am a good dog trainer. > > I understand why the need for such a distribution arises from time to time. > There is no simple manual, system, or even a step by step series of documents > that truly helps a person who is blind to *INDEPENDENTLY* get started with > linux. There was with DOS. > > I taught myself DOS from a couple of simple silly programs like Simply, and > the DOS reference manual, and an RFB offering of Running MSDOS. I wish that > Linux were so well organized in documentation. There is a ton of it, but > what is lacking is the step by step simplistic system for getting it going in > a productive manner that helps a novice *home* user. > > I have tried for months to locate a local guru to help in tutoring me in > Linux, or helping me with my system, but with no luck. The best I have is a > local computer shop that will provide some basic help for $75 an hour--not > helpful to me. > > Could this FAQ, or a series of them, set out to guide-educate the naive DOS > user to becoming familiar with, and knowledgeable enough with Linux, and > related applications, so that reasonable and normal home activities might be > done? Such a system has to work in terms and relational ideas similar to > those used in references like Running MSDOS. Terms and their relationship to > hardware/software have to be defined in simple ways that relate to home use, > and not a Unix environment. > > Having made some attempt to learn Linux the hard way, I have an enormous > respect for DOS, its simplicity, its utility, its growth and capability, that > I never had before. I used to swear at it as much as anyone else, but now I > know how really great such applications like 4DOS are! I would love to have > a 4Linux! > > The danger is that DOS is dying. Internet providers are no longer interested > in shell accounts like mine, and do not support them. My postings contain > the date 19100, because my version of ELM on my provider's system is not Y2K > compliant. Sometimes it has other glitches, as well. It is only a matter of > time for such things to be eliminated in the competition among providers to > put everyone online. More than ever, there needs to be a simpler process for > educating us DOS users into the Linux environment without having to go back > to get yet another, graduate degree! Most of us have a limited amount of time > in our lives, and spending hundreds and hundreds of hours on a new system to > learn the jargon and culture is not realistic for us. What can be done to > organize the information and guide a person through the steps in a simple and > hopefully, failsafe manner? > > 8. Hans mentions the Deja. com as a resource. I visited it via Lynx, and > found it to be much like other experiences in lynx--frustrating. I can read > what is there, but I could not successfully do anything but read it. I am > not sure even what it is for other than purchasing things that are not > accessible. I have never used a search engine successfully. > > 9. The FAQ does do well at covering an enormous amount of information as > concisely as it can. It is difficult for a novice to understand what many > things are for, and what they do for a person using them. I read about many > of them, and I still do not really know. EmacSpeak makes Emacs talk, but what > good is Emacs as an application? It seems to be some type of editor cum > Desqview, but even after reading the manual for it, going through the > tutorial, and reading a couple of references about it, I still see little > practical use for it. No macros??? SHUDDER!--Desqview has those. I HAD to > have missed something. > > Thanks for considering the questions. My Pogo computer has crashed, and is > not recovering. It has Red Hat 6.1 on it, with YASR and EmacSpeak. It is > probably easiest to start from scratch, and partition the drives, format a > Dos partition first, then set up a working and usable Linux system for a > novice. How might this be done in a documented series of FAQ's? I am ready > to volunteer to test them. I still have my working 232 Pentium with a > primary DOS system that I am using. I do have a full time job--I run the > Central Coast Northern Dog Rescue. > > My capabilities: I can use Lynx, sort of, and I can, on good days, even fTP > a file successfully! I am okay with email. I know some BASIC, and some > Forth. I can write aliases, macros, and batch files. I can use an editor if > I have access to creating macros. I normally use the WP editor, called ED, > with my own macro set. I have severe enough carpel tunnel syndrome to find > Emacs not to be an option at this time--too many keystrokes--and if this is not > heresy, I find it to be a difficult (primitive) system not within my present > grasp. Remember, the newbie knows little of this language/culture, and has > hundreds of new items to recall/remember. Trying to remember arcane > keystrokes to do the simplest tasks means that one will probably avoid the > application. I wrote a full macro set for WP and the editor to avoid this > precise problem. I run 4DOS, and have an 8K alias file for that reason, as > well. > > > > > _______________________________________________ > Blinux-list mailing list > Blinux-list@redhat.com > https://listman.redhat.com/mailman/listinfo/blinux-list > >